Share & Cheerlead & Tell with Domonique Foxworth and Jessica Smetana

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out.

I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

The lesson that we learned this past season is that

Coach Foxworth got a lemon booty right after this ad.

You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

If you're looking to add something special to your next celebration, try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

This smooth, flavorful cognac is crafted from the finest grapes and aged to perfection, giving you rich notes of oak and caramel with every sip.

Whether you're celebrating a big win or simply enjoying some cocktails with family and friends, Remy Martin 1738 is the perfect spirit to elevate any occasion.

So go ahead, treat yourself to a little luxury, and try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

Learn more at remymartin.com.

Remy Martin Cognac, Veen Champain, a 4000 Alcohol by Volume, reported by Remy Control, USA, Incorporated in York, New York, 1738, Centaur design.

Please drink responsibly.

I took an athlete, a bunch of athlete classes when I was in college.

What is an athlete class at Harvard?

Positive psychology.

God damn it.

Motherfucker has been reported and in the building.

The mic's not picking it up.

Are you sure?

It probably is.

This happens once a week.

Yeah, I mean, it happened twice today.

I want to explain to the microphone what I was just told here at Biami, which is that the fire alarm will be tested throughout the next 90 minutes.

But

yeah, mics are definitely picking it up.

Yeah, they're picking that up.

So we're in Miami.

Oh.

Safe.

Are we safe?

I think we're good.

All right.

I think we're good.

We can resume milking Dominique's body.

Oh, man.

Anytime I come down here, man, I feel like one of those industrial

cows where you have the machine that's hooked up to all the udders.

It's like hoses.

Yeah, just

nasty noise.

Dominique.

Dominique, we have company today.

Thursday night football is back and it's only on Prime Video.

This week, the Washington Commanders take on the Green Bay Packers with both teams determined to prove their worth.

Something's gotta give.

Coverage begins at 7 p.m.

Eastern with football's best party, TNF Tonight, presented by Verizon.

Not a Prime member, not a problem.

Simply sign up for a 30-day free trial.

It's the Commanders and the Packers Thursday at 7 p.m.

Eastern, only on Prime Video.

Restrictions apply.

See amazon.com slash Amazon Prime for details.

Hello, Jessica.

Hello, Dominique.

I think this is my first time on your show.

Yeah.

Unless somebody else has been impersonating me and you've been doing other episodes with a guy who is

clearly not as good at segues as me.

Just save us, please.

I brought the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders Netflix show,

which I binge-watched last week.

And I have so many feelings about and just contradictory thoughts and emotions.

But have you guys seen the show on Netflix?

I watched.

episode one.

Yes, we did our homework.

Nice.

I found it gripping in ways that

I don't want to step on your executive summary here, but there are are some parts of it where I was like, oh, this is how this shit works.

It's a lot of pressure every single night.

Our job is to make it look easy.

Since I was little, Dallas Cowboys Shoelers, that's what I want to do.

One, two, three, D, C, C, Woo!

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, like, my general feeling is that I really enjoyed the show and I would recommend it.

It was very entertaining.

It's a well-made docuseries.

You get to follow along these women as they audition to be on the team.

It kind of is a more glossy Netflix version of the show Making the Team, which followed the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders for years and how they auditioned and all the things that go into it.

But this one kind of goes into the season, and you see a lot of stuff behind the scenes.

And it really weaves, I think, a well-made narrative about specific dancers and the people that make the team.

And so you sort of get emotionally invested in them and their well-being.

But like you said, Pablo, there's so much that goes into it that feels just icky.

And I think the Netflix show does a good job of kind of letting you sit with that and not tell you if you should feel a certain way about it.

So I think it did kind of challenge me in that sense.

What did you know, Dominique, as an NFL player about the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders as this institution?

I mean, I'm aware the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders are America's sweethearts.

Like I'm aware of it.

Just like the brand.

Yeah, I know.

The brand specifically.

Yeah, no, I'm aware of of this.

Like, I'm aware that it was a thing.

I'm aware that they are a separate entity that people actually get excited about and look forward to.

Some of the things brought back memories for me from when I was a player was that whole big audition.

I played for the Broncos, which I don't know the ranking in their cheerleaders, but it was a big deal.

Denver's like the only major city in a real large area.

So women came from far and wide to audition to be on the Broncos.

And when they were doing like the audition scenes, I was called in to be one of the guests for

grading the

you were one of the judges.

Wow.

So this part of the Netflix show, Jess, was one of my

favorite parts.

I try to have the most diverse panel of judges that can help us seek out the best teammates that we can with this job that is so much more than a dance solo.

We have judges that are members of our local media.

Scott is a shitsuit owner.

The people people in episode one of the Cowboys series, to get a sense of who Dominique's counterparts were for this season of this show, it was

a stylist for a salon.

The stylist who then goes on to be the person that does the makeovers.

There's like a makeover episode.

This show had a lot of shades of America's Next Top Model, which I'm not sure if either of you watched, but that show was seminal in women my age developing eating disorders in the 2000s.

It was the local meteorologist.

Yeah.

A cooking influencer was also there.

Yes.

And he was like, your toe's not pointed.

Like, my favorite is the meteorologist being like, I don't know about that kick.

And I'm like, what?

Yeah.

At one point, I don't know what Dominique was like as a judge in terms of feedback, but the meteorologist was like, she was just being outdanced to me.

Number 36, Charlie.

In the field, I'm like, wow, looks amazing.

And then she started kicking.

Well, I don't think we should lower our bar for anybody, but

so does the question.

It's like, where the f is this guy?

Stick to weather fronts, buddy.

Yeah.

My role was early in the process so there was like the first thing it's a big room in uh the stadium and i will have you know that i think the denver broncos cheerleaders

i mean they should be at least second best they're up there like as far as cheerleaders are concerned yeah the talent level is insane yes incredible talent level with the women who are like classically trained some of them um

I don't remember exactly.

I just kind of was like doing the numbers and stuff.

I'm doing cheerleader analytics.

Yeah.

i just meant like number gradings like i don't remember exactly how involved i was but like i was 22 maybe 23 i was not there to judge i was there to make friends and uh

as someone who in in college i dated a

cheerleader or two

Real cheerleaders don't really respect the idea that the Dallas Cowboys consider themselves cheerleaders.

So in the NFL, there are, I think the Ravens have an actual cheer squad that does stunts, like throw people up.

This is a whole thing.

I was texting one of my friends about this, who's a college cheerleader.

And yes, like the, there's dance, there's cheer, there's cheer has more stunting and tumbling and stuff like that.

But yeah, I mean, these are dance teams.

This is like a dance team cheer that call themselves cheerleaders.

So there are, there's like a stolen valor dynamic with the most famous cheer squad in American history.

I should say, like, I don't come from a cheer world.

So if you get pissed at me for getting something wrong, sincerely I am sorry because I do admire the skill level that goes into this.

And I think that leads to probably one of my biggest like issues, I guess, with the entire thing is that like, A, I think the biggest storyline to come out of all this is like they're not paid well, right?

It was, dude, one of the cheerleaders who's auditioning says, or who made it, was like, I get paid like a substitute teacher.

No way, like a full-time Chick-fil-A employee.

how much are you making as a Dallas Calvinist cheerleader I would say I'm making like

a substitute teacher

a

I would say I'm making like a Chick-fil-A worker that works full-time

well let's listen to Charlotte Jones talk about the the pay issue There's a lot of cynicism around pay for NFL cheerleaders, and as it should be, they're not paid a lot.

But the facts are is that they actually don't come here for the money.

They come here for something that's actually bigger than that to them.

They have a passion for dance.

There are not a lot of opportunities in the field of dance to get to perform at an elite level.

It is about being a part of something bigger than themselves.

It is about a sisterhood that they were able to form, about relationships that they have for the rest of their life.

They have a chance to feel like they're valued, that they're special, and that they are making a difference.

When the women come here, they find their passion and they find their purpose.

So she's saying they come here not for money, but for the opportunity, which is obviously, she's the daughter of a billionaire who owns the most

highly valued team of probably any sport in the world.

I think the Cowboys are probably worth the most amount of money.

I would assume.

I also assume, I think they were recently valued at like $9 billion.

And I think I know that because I had to write about it for Stugatza's book.

So I guess thank you.

Speaking of unpaid women.

But yeah, I mean,

these work.

These women, like, they are auditioning for this team and they're constantly being judged and assessed and critiqued and criticized by the women who are in charge of the Dallas Cowboys trailers, Kelly and Judy.

They're kind of the two main people.

And then there's, of course, this other layer on top of that, which is the Jones family and like the sort of executive leadership of the Cowboys.

So they're all kind of working in this, in this power structure, this hierarchy within the Dallas Cowboys.

And so on the one hand, you have these women that go through this like extremely grueling process together and they feel this sense of like camaraderie and teamwork and like passion.

And so you see in one episode, they bring back the alumni cheerleaders and they all dance together.

And like you do do get the sense that they're getting a positive feeling out of doing all of this.

And it's not for nothing.

Like, they want to do this.

This is like their life's dream in many cases.

And a feeling of accomplishment in the world of dance and cheer that like many people would really kill for.

The flip side of that is that like.

They're not paid well.

They're objectified.

There's an episode where a woman actually says that she's groped by someone at a Cowboys game.

One of the cheerleaders is groped by a photographer.

They're just hypersexualized.

It's just so, like, there's so many parts of it.

Being beholden to the beauty standard, I think, in particular, is something that this show really shows you.

Like, they're constantly talking about what these women look like, whether it's the hair.

They're zooming in on HD photos and saying, like, fix your mascara.

The cooking influencer, at one point, as a judge, says, quote, there's a little more weight in her face.

Right.

And, and, like, there's, I get, I get, I get on some level, right?

Like, that's what you sign up for is like, but, but the whole notion of like, here is this institution.

Right.

And I'm an outsider.

I mean, obviously, I'm like, I went to a high school without a football team in New York City.

So like, all of this is from like movies and television.

The idea that all of these people are both like some of the most famous entities in the sports imagination of America and are also like clearly in need of Dominique Foxworth's equivalent to unionize them.

Yeah, right.

And like the, to go on top of that, like one of the other things that you are introduced to is a woman who was formerly on the team has since retired and has had to get multiple surgeries because of cheer-related injuries.

Like the things that they're doing are physically difficult.

There's a whole storyline about the, they do a kick into a split in the Thunderstruck Dallas Cowboys routine.

This is the big routine that they do in every game.

They go into a kick line and they kick to every time you hear the symbol crash at the end of Thunderstruck.

And then they kick up and land in a split on the turf.

And it looks so painful.

And they tell you how painful it is.

And they're all like connected to one another, literally, like holding on to each other.

So if one person screws up this thing, the split, it can actually like screw up everyone else around you and potentially get you hurt.

So like there is like a degree of difficulty here that 99.99999%

of people could not do like physically.

And yet Charlotte Jones is like telling us, well, they're just here for, you know, things other than money.

They're just here for the opportunity.

And so like a lot of it just feels like such a big contradiction.

Yeah, this level of discussion does not happen in episode one of this show for the record.

Well, I think it's like, I really like the women in the show.

Like I'm rooting for them and I totally like, I want them to succeed and I want to watch them dance.

Like it's mesmerizing to watch them dance.

So who

is made to feel like they are

getting a bad deal in all of this, right?

So you could argue that it's the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders who are super famous but wildly underpaid.

You could argue that it's the actual quote-unquote cheerleaders who themselves are saying, these aren't cheerleaders.

And those cheerleaders, according to this article that I found from CBS News, 2012, U.S.

Appeals Court colon, cheerleading not a sport, has itself been been used to both like

help allegedly try to eliminate other female sports.

Like this was, can we eliminate women's volleyball, for instance, but keep competitive cheering?

And the whole ruling was cheerleading competitively, not a sport.

And of course, the volleyball players are like, what the f are you trying to do to us?

And so everybody feels like it's being, it's something to be used for someone else's end.

Yeah, you can't take the like the individual out of the context, right?

Like you can't take like the individual person who's doing this and wants to do this out of the context of the Dallas Cowboys and of the NFL.

They have so much money.

They have so much money.

They are historically predominantly male and for men have largely ignored their female fan base for decades, I would say.

Oh, no, we got them pink jerseys.

We got them pink jerseys.

Shrink it and pink it.

But I think that like, just on like a basic level, I think that it's very obvious to understand why a woman putting on this Dallas Cowboys True Literature uniform feels empowered and like strong, and they've accomplished their dream.

And at the same time, understand that the beauty standard and the power structure in play has been historically used to oppress women.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that every woman's dream in America is to be told that they have outdanced someone else by a local meteorologist.

That is one of the best parts of the show.

He's so sassy.

Like,

who is this?

Where does he get off doing this?

If you're looking to add something special to your next celebration, try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

This smooth, flavorful cognac is crafted from the finest grapes and aged to perfection, giving you rich notes of oak and caramel with every sip.

Whether you're celebrating a big win or simply enjoying some cocktails with family and friends, Remy Martin 1738 is the perfect spirit to elevate any occasion.

So go ahead, treat yourself to a little luxury, and try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

Learn more at remymartin.com.

Remy Martin Cognac, Feen Champion, African Alcohol by Volume 40 by Remy Control, USA Incorporated, New York, New York, 1738, Centaur Design.

Please drink responsibly.

Dominique?

Sure.

So it's interesting because

I have three children and I'm a dad.

I coach my son's flag football team.

I also have been helping my oldest daughter in her track exploits.

And my youngest daughter might be the most athletic of all of them, like relative to her peers.

No dog.

No desire to play sports.

No desire to play sports.

And she

does karate and she likes that.

She loves to dance

and has asked me if she could be a cheerleader.

And I have to be honest with you, I will bring myself around to allowing her to do it at some point.

But my initial reaction, even like I dated cheerleaders in college and in NFL and like some of my best friends are cheerleaders.

But I still have a hard time where it's like, I get that you have competition, but I have a hard time with the idea of like,

why do you want to cheer for the touchdowns?

Go score them.

I put her in flag football faster than all the girls.

Hated it.

Put her in soccer.

She go score a goal and then lay down and cry.

It's like, what are you doing?

And then our older sister was like always the best player on all of her soccer teams, always the best player on basketball teams.

And now we are going to Greensboro because she qualified for the junior Olympics.

It's all

my son.

That's a big deal.

It's her first year.

I mean, that's pretty cool.

Well, yeah, she's doing pretty well.

We were training in the sand yesterday.

She asked me to help her train in

Miami.

And I was like, sure.

Can she say, can you come up with some exercise for me?

I did it.

And midway through, she was like, can you not come up with any exercise?

I was like, all right, you don't want to be great.

You want to be great.

Her calves are burning.

Let's go have a good time.

But do you, do you find yourself, Dominique?

Are you Earl Woods?

Are you Richard Williams?

So I decided that I would never be that because I did not experience that.

And obviously, it worked out for me athletically.

And I think that there are a couple other paths you could go down.

It's like if my dad, who wasn't really a good athlete, he said he played JV football in high school and that was it.

But if he like completely dedicated himself to making me the best possible player I could be, then maybe I could have been better or maybe I could have like, revolted against this.

So my desire as a parent was always to like downplay it.

And it's funny, especially at these flag football games, where my son's been playing for a while.

I've only coached the last two years, which has been three seasons.

And watching how other parents react, I always just like, oh, you obviously were a good high school football player, but that's where your career stopped because you are too, far too invested in these kids.

And it always, I never wanted to be that guy.

So when things go wrong for my kids and sports, they come off and I'm like, all right, I'm good.

Or when things go well, I'm like, great job.

And i try to do the things that you're like to um

celebrate the effort and the sportsmanship and like that sort of thing it's like you gave up that touchdown but you know what i was really impressed with you came back whatever and your teammate missed the flag and you know what i was impressed impressed with that you were the first one over there to pat him on the back and i think back to my dad again it's like when i was six i told my dad i was gonna be a professional football player and he said all right i told my dad that too by the way it did not work out for me so my dad told me all right, well, you do something to get yourself closer to that goal every day.

And at the time, I was like, awesome, dad wants me to make the NFL.

Many years later, I realized like, no, dad saw this as an opportunity to teach me how to set goals and work towards them.

So like, I don't expect any of my kids and or the kids that I'm coaching to like be professional athletes, but I do also try to use these opportunities as a chance to teach them.

But the lesson that we learned this past season is that

Coach Foxworth got a lemon booty in the second half of the championship game.

We were up by two touchdowns and I got conservative when we blew the league.

Lemon booty.

Oh, Lord.

I imagine it must be particularly difficult to have, to raise kids to play sports right now, given how expensive and like semi-professional youth sports has gotten.

Because when I was coming up through soccer, it was like right at the start of like the club phenomenon in like youth soccer where I lived.

And so by the time I was going to college, it had gotten to where you couldn't play soccer at a high level without spending thousands of dollars.

And luckily at that, before I got to that point for me, I knew I wasn't good enough to keep playing.

So I never felt like I was wasting that money or like couldn't take the opportunities that I had.

But like, I think now it's starting even younger, right?

Yeah.

And we've avoided it.

And so like, uh, but how?

So I asked, asked my kids, frankly, and we've made it kind of a rule is like one sport per season.

And, uh, my daughter was like a standout soccer player when she was like eight years old.

And they would always come and say, hey, you should really do travel.

And I asked my daughter, do you want to do travel?

And she's like, are my friends on that team?

No.

Never wanted to do travel soccer.

And I was like, all right, cool.

So we're not going to do travel soccer.

And as she got older, so this, the reason why she's 13 now and she's finally running track for the first time is because last year she was like, I want to run track.

I want to run club track.

And she came to me and asked to run club track.

And I was like, all right.

She did it multiple times over and over again.

I was like, all right, we're going to put you in this.

And I guess it's like my way of determining like how committed they are to this and also making sure that it's something that they want to do.

Cause that's another dynamic that me as a former athlete.

It's like everyone assumes that they're going to do stuff.

And I'm wondering, often wondering, like,

why are they doing this?

Particularly with my son, who's like, he wants to play tackle football so bad his entire life.

And I won't let him.

At some point, I think I'm going to lose that battle.

I'm going to have to let him.

But it always is in the back of my mind is like, how much of this is because you really want to do this?

Or how much of this is because you think that you're supposed to, or that this is an example of like, whatever it means to be.

like your dad or be a man or anything like that.

Because that was the main motivation for me playing football was not to be like my dad was because I thought the soft kids play basketball.

And I was like, nah, I'm a tough kid.

We play football.

And I know like that stuff has to exist in some other way and be multiplied.

So like, it's tough being a sports dad and the pressure that comes along with it is difficult too, I think.

Did you watch?

Did you watch the all 22 of the game you choked away?

Yeah.

So the first season I did with these kids, I was like, everyone gets playing time.

We win, we lose.

Who cares?

Let's have fun.

After that season, the boys came to me and they were, I don't know, nine, nine, ten years old.

They came to me and was like, we want to win.

Like, stop playing these kids.

They don't want to play.

Stop scrimmaging us in practice the whole time.

Teach us stuff.

We know you know football.

We want to win.

Stop running on all three downs.

I like to throw a pass.

I like how Dominique is playing hard to get as like the kung fu master who's like, no, you don't get to learn how to do the one inch punch of death.

I wish it was intentional.

It wasn't an intentional strategy.

It was because that's my, my son was switching schools and my wife wanted him to maintain these friendships.

And she said, the way we can keep this team together, essentially, my general manager hired me to be the head coach without me asking to be head coach.

She told me, you're going to coach this team.

And so I was like, all right, well, I'm going to coach it my way.

I told them that our team name was going to be the Hugger Bros and we are going to run,

we're going to allow everyone to play quarterback, every player.

So we were like a mediocre team because we had some good athletes.

But you hugged some bros.

They wouldn't let me call them the hugger bros.

They decided they want to be called the tigers.

But then they came to me.

And then the next year, all right, so I'm committed to this.

And I really am a hard, like, not like yelling or whatever, but like strict with them.

And we got better through the course of the year.

We were the last seed in the playoffs.

And we came from the last seed, got all the way to the championship game, two touchdown league in second half.

And all of a sudden, me caring much more than I cared before turned into me being a coward and running out the clock and getting us a L.

Note to self, having kids equals more content.

Just kidding.

So what is it about cheerleading, though, specifically?

I mean, you want me to make myself look even more like

Neanderthal?

I don't know why I can't, I don't know how else to explain it anymore is that it feels like cheerleading is about

being in service to the men who are actually doing it.

And like, I know that there is separate competitive cheer, but I do have that immediate reaction where it's like, no, but but you can be the one that people are cheering for.

There's been a lot written about the stomach.

It is like, no.

I'll set myself up to look like

a misogynist again.

Well, a little bit.

No.

A weirdly feminist misogynist.

It's like the trope of the cheerleader is like, you're the perfect woman because you're supportive and enthusiastic

towards men.

And that is something that I think a lot of people can read into cheerleading.

And so like, I don't obviously know how you remove that, if that's still the way that cheerleading exists for, like, at a youth level, but it doesn't necessarily have to be like a wrong thing, I guess.

Like, it's,

it's, it's, I guess I, as I mentioned before, it was half joke saying some of my best friends are cheerleaders.

Like, no, I do know my, one of my best friends from college married his college girlfriend who was a cheerleader.

Like, I know, and, and they turn in, it's not that there's more to it than just right and not what i'm saying is it does i know that it doesn't turn them into like submissive uh like wives back of the room like you know i recognize that but i'm just telling you that i know that it's a real endeavor i'm saying that my immediate reaction which i know was probably wrong is like in my mind i'm like oh no we're the doers in this family We're the doers.

We're not the cheerers.

And that was the first time with my third kid that I ever had that.

Cause because like i don't care if they're good i just wanted to do it and her like crying and falling out is like that is the thing that offended me when are you going to tell your kids that what you really do is a noble profession known as podcasting

i want to get my young fly i my job is also to support men because i work here so like that will be a lesson that your daughter will learn at a young age and take with her into corporate america cheerleading is like helps you get ready for the world

What did we find out today, guys?

At the end of every episode of Public Tory Finds Out, we say what we found out today.

I will start

as the father of a daughter.

I am glad I have zero athletic genes to pass on because it sounds real complicated for all you call all you guys having to figure out, am I going to be a cheerleader?

Am I going to be a football football player?

Am I going to be a professional basketball player potentially?

I like that we're not going to have to deal with any of that stuff because I have fully leaned in to this job and I have nothing to pass on when it comes to my genetics.

I found out that I am becoming the old conservative that I like to rail against.

And I got to say, Pablo, I hate that I do your show so often.

I've managed to not embarrass myself many times that I've done it, but this time I failed.

No, no, I don't think so.

I don't think what I

was doing.

You did.

What I learned is that you're basically Dan Quinn coaching a championship game, giving up a big league.

Yeah, that's the realest thing.

That's the most embarrassing thing I think that happened.

Like 28 to 3.

Damn.

Yeah.

I'll tell you guys what actually happened when

Julian Edelman Jr.

came in, had a crazy catch.

It's f ⁇ ing fluky.

It stuck to his helmet.

I mean, they didn't call the holding.

First overtime in Little League history, too, I heard.

Nope.

Jess, what did you find out so you can save us from Dominique trying to litigate a game between two teams named

We were the Tigers.

I forgot the other team's name.

Very good.

Not like us is their name because they won champions.

Damn.

I learned that if I just throw a bunch of like big words at you guys, you think I'm saying something smart, which is just not the case.

Yeah, of course.

I get how you ended up here.

How did that wind up a burn of me?

I love her.

She's the best.

God God damn.

I don't know.

I had to flip it on you somehow.

I found out that we didn't die in a fire today.

Nice.

Yet.

Yeah, it's not over.

We are still in this building.

And

we're dead.

Pablo Dori Finds Out is produced by Michael Antonucci, Walter Avaroma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McRae, Rachel Miller-Howard, Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tumanello, and Juliet Warren.

CD Engineering by RG Systems, sound design by NGW Post, our theme song by John Bravo.

All of us will see you on Tuesday.