Share & Tell & Caitlin Clark, with Mina Kimes and Domonique Foxworth

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out.

I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

Oh, you think you're better than me?

Teen.

You think, oh, I can entertain myself.

Oh, I can be alone with my thoughts.

Right after this ad.

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Are you running code switching mesh?

Is that what's happening?

I don't know what mesh is.

I've just heard you guys say it before.

I'm like,

that's the right place.

It's like a man-beater crossing route sort of thing.

Yeah.

Pablo, that's your second football reference.

Is that you code switching so that you can hang out with me and Dominique?

If I prepared anything, it's a bunch of football terms going to roll out throughout this show today.

Yeah, I thought of you this morning on Get Up.

They asked for a trivia question, and it was, what number 32 has scored the most touchdowns in NFL history?

And I was like, Pablo, even if he knew the answer to this, he would have no idea by numbers.

You just weird numbers.

I died.

Who's genuinely like who's number 32?

Well, the answer was Marcus Allen.

Oh, yeah.

I've uh I have I have a hard time with uh jersey numbers as well.

Sometimes I really look at it.

Wait, bye.

Let's let's workshop this.

Uh, Luca's no, I don't got offensive lineman's number

77.

Yeah, yeah, 77.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know Caitlin Clark's number.

Oh, transition 22.

Right.

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So go ahead, treat yourself to a little luxury, and try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

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Should we begin with the topic that I wanted to talk about?

Caitlin Clark is a white heterosexual woman in a black lesbian league.

There's one white bitch.

Who talks about the WNBA?

Who talks about women?

Who talks about women's sports

more than first hate?

Kennedy Carter now with 12 points off the binge.

Officials are going to take a look at what just transpired between Carter and Clark.

I wasn't expecting it, but I think it's just like, just respond, come down, let your play do the talking.

You know,

it is what it is, I guess.

I don't know.

Because I really want to talk about it, but I also don't expect people to want to hear about it, even though I think we can talk about it in a way that's better than

what a hoax.

I want to be transparent.

I want to be transparent about Caitlin Clark.

I've been texting about this story, and I've been,

you know, I've been constipated with opinion.

And now I'm about to sort of get into why I want to talk about this, because on some level, I want to set the stage here.

And I think setting the stage is actually something that we probably don't do enough with this story, which is to say that I think we should start by talking about men's basketball.

And I say that because it, first off, makes me a classic dude.

the very person who is the villain in this story.

But it's also fascinating because men's basketball is one of the few places in American life, of course, where white people care about getting to feel like a minority and being recognized for that.

It's one of the few places in American life where white people get to feel like a minority.

And it's a place where Goliath gets to feel like David.

And that's why, of course, the problem is in American basketball right now, to lots of people who care about these issues.

There's no white American NBA star, right?

So you go to list and it's like Chet Holmgren.

It's like Austin Reeves, Tyler Hurrow.

We did a whole episode about it.

So that dynamic, which the majority gets to feel like the minority, is happening in women's basketball, except the sport of women's basketball also is not a sport with a history of feeling like they have been mainstreamed or heard.

And basically, that means that the majority in women's basketball does not feel like they've gotten any of the rewards of being the majority.

And the majority in women's basketball happens to be black women.

60% of WMA players are black women.

And so this story to me, in a roundabout way, is about a majority group feeling like they're the minority and the minority group not feeling like they've gotten the rewards of being the majority inside of the sport that everybody suddenly cares about.

Does all of that track so far?

I mean, we talked about the WNBA.

Pablo leads off.

Mina, I'm clearing out because I feel like it's absurd that I am the next, but I guess he talked about race.

So where do we go?

If you talk about women and you talk about race, then where do we go?

Is it does black Trump?

Does Black coming first?

What is going on here?

You're joking, but I actually think you're hitting on something very important to this discussion.

And really what Pablo was alluding to, which is

everybody involved in this story

feels aggrieved.

And

if you really parse it out, different parties all have cases to be made for not necessarily a sense of being aggrieved or whatnot, some illegitimate cases, but rather for their viewpoint and why it's, as Pablo said, being overlooked in some way.

I mean, the way I've seen this is

it appears to me to be that there's two debates going on at the same time.

One is whether or not Caitlin Clark is being treated differently in the NBA from other rookies, from other stars, and the reasons for that.

And then the other debate is,

you know, who is responsible for the renewed attention on Debbie Ibay?

These things are obviously related, or some people believe they're more related than others.

And both of those debates, her treatment and also

what she's responsible for in terms of like the attention and

who is talking about her and why we're talking about her, both of those things have very intense racial overtones, I would say, not even undertones.

And I think because of that, it's very, very hard for all the people arguing around each other to meet eye to eye because,

or I guess to engage on this issue or to find middle ground because it feels like everybody's kind of talking over each other to make their case and all of these different cases have some legitimacy to them.

I want to reset this, actually.

Can I reset this with a question, with a basic question of like resignation?

Are we resigned to the idea that this argument is unsolvable?

What's the argument, though?

What's the problem?

And so exactly, this is where I want to set the stage, right?

The argument is that Caitlin Clark is always going to be both a hero and a villain,

both a David and a Goliath, both overhyped and underrated,

both a heel and a face, to use wrestling terms, in a sport where she, as a white woman, is a minority group while also being a majority outside of it.

While at the same time, the majority inside this same sport is only now feeling what it's like when people start to give a shit about what they do, meaning that the appreciation they're even beginning to receive from the mainstream is being attributed to this person who is not them and in fact is defined in opposition to them in lots of demographic ways in actual broader society.

That to me feels like a real problem when it comes to how this is going to evolve.

All right, I'm going to be your layman's translator here because you said a lot there.

Basically, you're saying, is she overrated?

Right?

Kind of, right?

I mean, it's what you're saying is obviously a lot more complex than that, because when we say overrated, we're talking about,

you know, her treatment on the court, her marketing appeal, her responsibility for the league.

All of these things are different debates, but they're kind of wrapped up into this

broader, I guess, or this overarching umbrella.

Is she getting too much credit, attention, treatment, all of it?

Is it too much?

Are we putting too much on her?

And Pablo, I don't think it's going to be solved insofar as

she is always going to be get the benefit of being a white woman, being a straight woman, the things that come with the benefits in this country that come with that in terms of marketing dollars, promotion, et cetera, that is real.

However, she also,

I think

people who,

there's people who hear that and they say, but you're ignoring the fact that she also is getting those things mostly because she's really, really good and entertaining.

Yeah, I think in the long run, the things within the WNBA will resolve, excuse me, within the community of the WNBA.

Will she cease to represent something to

us who watch it?

Never.

Yeah.

Maybe it'll change for different people, but she just happened to be this person at this time with this game in this country, in this sport,

that makes it so she, and this happens to a lot of athletes.

You come to represent more than just,

I mean, a lot of people.

You come to represent more than what you intend to represent.

It's kind of one of the trade-offs of being a superstar like that.

Not to say that it's right or wrong, but it's something that you can't change.

That's the part of the story that's resonated with me the most, frankly.

Like when she trends.

Okay, so.

Again, this is, I'm really not trying to be solipsistic here or whatever, but this is, you know, we, everybody is bringing their own experience clearly to the story.

And it is why it's so emotional for so many people.

For me personally, like when I see her like trending and people arguing about her and I see people like Clay Travis coming to her defense, I'm thinking, God, that sucks.

And I've had the experience where, you know, when I guess various people have criticized me or come at me for identity-based reasons, I've had people leap to my defense on the internet.

And while they're my friends and I love them, I appreciate them, there is always a part of me that's like, just, can we just not talk about it?

I just want this to go away.

I just want to do my job.

And I, and I, so I see that and I think, oh my God, I like another day, another news, like she just, it must be exhausting for her.

And, you know, my version is a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of what she's dealing with, but it must suck for her and for her teammates that they've become this stand-in for culture wars and things that have nothing to do with them.

I am surprised by the degree to which culture war is all over this.

It's that silence is tacit approval of her fans who are people who are, in this case, not her friends, but people who are trying to to use her to make that point?

Yeah.

And so the question I guess I'm articulating here is: what responsibility do you have as a public figure to disavow the people who are crusading on your behalf?

Right.

Because silence is different from explicitly saying.

Tough thing about this is that's that's impossible because

the tough thing about this situation is normally there is an entity or a sport or a movie or a celebrity that is already so big that the most of the conversation is dominated by people who understand this entity.

The unusual thing about this particular situation is most of the people talking about it do not understand it or not fans of it, do not have the history in it.

And you can't just pretend like, because there's a chance that when there is

something

Kaepernick happens in football, there's a chance for a segment of the football public to go and talk about their only football, talk only about football in their corner because it's so big.

It's impossible.

Like the amount of people who have interest in this story and want to engage in this story dwarfs the like actual legitimate pre-existing fan base.

And so like, I think we're fooling ourselves if we are trying to.

imagine some way where she can possibly just ignore it or we could just go play basketball.

We could just let it go.

Like it just can't.

And she hasn't spoken on it, which is a whole nother lane to go down.

Well, I think it also

the dynamic is really, really tricky.

And

I don't think she bears responsibility, Pablo, to speak out or whatnot.

And I don't, like I said earlier, I don't envy the position she's in.

But because of her approach, which is keep my head down, play basketball, occasionally just, you know, when she's asked about it, I think she gives the answers, you know, you would expect.

Oh, she's very complimentary, by the way, to Angel Rees, to all these players.

She says the right things ostensibly on that level.

I think, and this is not her fault at all.

It unfortunately feeds into

the feeling of mistreatment because, so look,

when people say the WNBA players hate her, that's clearly

they are painting with a broad brush.

And it is ridiculous.

However, you know, when you see Angel Rees celebrating after the foul, obviously there's, you know, some bad blood or rivalry there.

And frankly, that's when people say there's no, no one dislikes her.

Then they feel ghastly when they see that because clearly there's something there, right?

The problem is,

and typically in sports, like if you took that, a player celebrating, let's say, to go back to your example of the WAA, let's say we saw Anthony Edwards celebrating.

If Luka Donczich was fouled, we'd be like, yeah, oh, God, and because we know those guys are going to like, you know, they're going to be be chippy and it's going to be fun.

It's trash talking.

We love that in sports.

But in this example, it feels one-sided in that regard because she's not punching back.

And she can't.

I don't, maybe she can.

I don't know.

But it's very, very tricky.

And I think it only feeds into this issue of like, this doesn't feel like it, we want it to feel like normal sports rivalry and chippiness and all the things we love in sports.

But because of the unique dynamic of this and because of what it means to all these people, it can't feel that way.

It doesn't feel that way right now.

Right.

And look, I think even the language, Dominique, about like, you know, punching back and all of that, like she does, I mean, you can go and find now highlight reels of her doing her own hard fouls, right?

So I want to be clear about just the literalism versus what we're talking about here, which is how she is framing the story as a PR

concern, which is when she's at a press conference, what she's saying.

And I think about someone like Paige Beckers, right?

So like there are ways for a white player to endear themselves to a broader demographic.

In this case, the majority group, 60% of the WNBA is black women.

Paige Beckers goes out of her way to say, I acknowledge all the privilege that I get.

And this is a real, I think, informed opinion that is based in truth for being a conventionally attractive white woman.

With the light that I have now,

as a white woman who leads a black-led sport and celebrated here, I want to show a light on black women.

They don't get the media coverage that they deserve.

And what Caitlin Clark is seemingly doing is more trying to say, can we just play basketball?

And she doesn't want to actually have to preemptively apologize.

And I don't think she has a responsibility to do that.

What I'm really trying to think about is, if you were trying to make this story go away, if you were working with Caitlin Clark, like,

what are the moves available at this point?

Because all of it feels like it's rooted in

also the internet, by the way.

In which case, good luck trying to isolate the variable that people are mad at.

You can't.

Like, I can't even begin to tell you how to make this go away.

Like, you, you can't.

And I think also mixed into this, and as Mina said a couple of times, we bring all of our baggage to this, or not even baggage, our experiences and our understanding to this.

And while this goes back to your original point, Pablo, where she is a minority in her sport, she is a very, comes from a very privileged majority in this country and the idea of uh

a white woman falling down and calling for the authorities it it does not come off like that's it there's a segment of society that's automatically going to be like oh here we go which is obviously it's not something i'm saying is fair to her but that's like that's so deeply rooted and ingrained in the history of this country that it's it's completely like absurd for us to to think that there is something that Caitlin Clark can do or say that's suddenly going to be like, oh, okay, it's cool now.

Let's just play basketball.

Yeah.

Mina, Mina, the other, one more thought just to throw to you also is like, I find it incredibly

frustrating and I guess unsurprising that like you also aren't really allowed to, I mean, even that phrasing is, is tricky, right?

It feels like it is very easy now to confuse a criticism of an individual with you rooting against the group that they are representing as the avatar.

Right.

And so when it's like, hey, Angel Reese, I find what you do on the court to be Draymond-like.

And if I'm talking about Draymond Green, I'm talking about someone who can all say plainly is unlikable.

But because this is an avatar for a group for whom that accusation is a larger problem for reasons that are obvious when you go to the larger society that we inhabit, then it's like everybody is feeling, I think, like they can't really say how they feel.

And that's why everybody feels like they're gaslighting each other fundamentally online.

That's a it's a good example of how in this story, the problem is all of these actions by individual actors are being conflated with like a broader group feeling or sense, right?

Like we should be able to say, hey, like, Angel Reese clearly doesn't like her

without it being a statement about, you know, all black women or all WNBA players or all

whatnot,

which, again, like I said, to Miana's face is absurd.

But I think

there are people who are watching.

So, so everybody who, it's like, what do they call that?

The Rashamon, right?

When you see everyone sees something different.

So that moment, which is really what sparked all of this, it was already certainly simmering, but that moment, the Carter Foul, the Reese reaction, the non-common afterwards, both of them taking to social media, all of that, and then the reaction and then people reacting to their reaction.

That's the moment.

You can look at that.

And if somebody says, and you can hear people say the WMA does not have a problem with her, but then you look at that and be like, wait, no, I just, I'm seeing this.

This is happening.

It's happening, right?

Okay.

But then if somebody was to say, well, clearly,

you know,

this player does, people say, why are you saying the whole league does?

I don't know.

Like,

I feel like I'm not articulating myself well, but my point is everybody's looking at this like one incident and then like using it to paint a broad brush in whatever direction they want to go with in the same way that like, you know, when people say, oh, you know, she's

you say Caitlin Clark gets the benefit of her identity from a marketing promotion standpoint.

There are people who say, you're discount by leading with that, you're discounting her skills as a basketball player.

Yes.

But then

if you don't acknowledge it, people correctly will say, well, you're ignoring something that is just fundamentally true.

I guess my point is like everybody

is right

and wrong.

It's about those sites.

Right.

It seems perfectly calibrated to piss off everybody because there's so many things

at once.

If you're like me and you get that for you page, it's not even just like, here's the clip.

I'm saying

I'm being fed outrage on both sides.

And whoever you are, if your consumption of that is not just the clip or whatever, or the entire entire game, rather, but rather a tweet saying, look at these thugs, or conversely, a tweet saying, oh, everybody's going to protect this

white girl, whatever.

Of course, you're going to be inflamed.

And I think that's the problem.

I mean, that's one of the many problems with this story that's already, as we've been talking about, calibrated to anger a lot of people is their consumption of it is through the lens of these extreme reactions, which are only stoking.

Like a lot of people are reacting to the reactions at this point and not the actual stuff that's happening.

Sometimes with this stuff, I think about it like imagine how we're going to look back on this and how what parts, what rough edges are we going to sand off?

And 20 years from now, when the WNBA is handing out $100 million contracts, are we going to look back at this era and sand off some of the uglier points and say like

Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese won't let you forget that she was a part of the college stuff too.

Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese ushered in this tension that brought attention to the game.

And then it made me think that, like, we often retell that story of bird and magic.

We didn't have social media back then.

I got a feeling that there was some racial

undertones to why that became such a like exciting.

It wasn't just their style of play.

I mean, yeah, overtones, definitely.

We're all in overtones today.

So we didn't have social media back then.

But my guess is the tweets that we would get from the 60s and 70s would have been rough.

And the funny thing is, a couple of years ago, I went back and watched their college game that everyone talks about.

I point to people point to those days and say, back when these guys didn't like each other, they played hard.

So I went back and watched that college game a couple of years ago.

And in the first couple of plays, Bird helps Magic up.

Magic like puts his arm around him.

And it's just like, we have recast that whole, go back and watch it.

You just got to watch the first quarter.

And they're like, lovey-dovey.

And we have recast that whole thing in a way that suits us.

And I just imagine 20 years from now, we're going to recast this in a way, whatever the version of social media is then.

We're going to recast this in a way that's, that like.

buffs away all this foolishness and writes this as a triumphant story of these two women building up the league.

That is the most optimistic outcome, I think, of what we are projecting ahead.

I think that the fact that this sport is coming into mainstream prominence simultaneous to this makes this a level beyond complicated when compared to Magic and Bird.

I think that people are interweaving into this the very legitimacy of the sport that they are representing on top of the very specific and yet wildly broad level of Angel Reese versus Caitlin Clark.

I think the internet here matters, to go back to Mina's point, and like why the internet matters as the form in which this is happening, is because how we talk about it is actually very meaningful to the sport and the people who have been following it forever.

I think it's less like we're all talking about a thing that everybody knows as a matter of, oh, that's that place, that sport, that institution where this happens.

I think the fact that it's happening on a platform that is designed to limit the amount of literal words you can use to talk about it, and it limits the vantage point you have on any given part of this argument, makes it a recipe that honestly, like Vladimir Putin could have only dreamed of.

Like the idea of like, how do you break apart the American electorate?

have

anybody actually an American, not a bot, just say the words, Caitlin Clark is overrated.

And you'll get the argument that you want to tear apart America is how it feels to me right now.

But

it'll be resolved when we actually have a better sense of who she is as a basketball player, in my opinion.

Not resolved insofar as

there'll still be strong reactions and allegiances and frustrations and things representing things to different people.

Yes.

But part of the reason why this is so ripe for debate right now is because she's not dominant yet.

Yes, that's the big difference in her and college.

It's that it's also plausible that she's not as good good as you think.

I think

sometime in the future, it'll be a lot

more clear to what degree

she is

being mistreated, how she's responsible for success, whether she deserves it, all that stuff.

It's going to play out on the core.

I keep going back to that.

Like, you know,

this is so toxic right now for all the reasons we're discussing, but it's also

because you can, you can look at, I talked about you can look at like that foul and you can come away with anything, you can look at our game right now and make a number of different statements and predictions.

That won't always be the case.

The other element of this that we haven't talked about, or at least segment of this, is people trying to score points.

Yeah.

Which

is like talking about players or sports media?

Definitely not the players.

People on the internet.

Yeah.

People on the internet trying to score points.

Like

i

find myself falling on

like

what i would consider the right side and like the more

i don't know compassionate side of this and i don't say anything about this stuff in large part because i

feel like i'm grandstanding and watching other people grandstand on either side just like shut the up

what are you doing this is stupid you don't you don't think this you don't feel this way you're trying to get some likes it just annoys the hell out of me

everybody uh plausibly right now feels like they're being cyber bullied

and some people are using that advantage are using that reality to uh yeah to to towards their own self-interest um

it's uh

it's a bummer um i mean i don't want to end on that

I suppose that

I want to be optimistic about the basketball court being the place where this stuff is adjudicated, finally.

But I also know that, like, I don't know, we've been arguing about Michael Jordan and LeBron for forever.

Like, it's not like, I don't think greatness is,

I don't think greatness is, what's the word,

is going to settle this argument.

We got Jordan and LeBron, so you can argue all you want.

You talking about Jeremy Lynn?

Mina, what did you bring us today?

The story is called The Trials and Tribulations of the Boy Mom in the New Yorkers

by Jessica Winter.

It's a book review,

actually.

Boy Mom Reimagining Boyhood in the Age of Impossible Masculinity.

But the story talks about, I think, it was TikTok or

some viral posts from women talking about how they just love their sons and sort of this idea of the boy mom as a response to the girl dad.

But the book review is something that I find very interesting because it talks about the challenges, I guess, of raising a son today

for a litany of reasons, I think, that we can certainly get into.

Obviously, this is something that's been on my mind a little bit.

You know, in a world where I think boys are certainly more aware of toxic masculinity, for example, it's certainly not something that when we were growing up, boys were taught about.

And then how you see on the internet certain pockets of

young men who are retaliating in response to that, rise of things things like incel,

backlash.

We just saw that Chief's kicker referred to this, of encouraging men to embrace their masculinity and all of that.

So

it's,

I guess I would summarize it as this conflict between like, you know, being a mom who's like, I'm proud of having a son and I love having a son versus this tension with this idea of like, ooh, I'm worried about raising a son right now because it seems like it's really tricky.

It's a bit of a minefield, perhaps, in a way that maybe it's not for people who are fathers or mothers of daughters.

It's a book review.

So it's hard when you read an article like this because it touches on so many different things.

But the part of it that jumped out and grabbed me was about how you're raising your sons in this time.

And you have to, the interesting thing is, when I was growing up, or I guess around, I don't know, late teens and like early 20s when I first started thinking about myself as an adult and thinking about what type of parent I would be, you always think about how you would parent your child, juxtaposed with how you were parented and in the world that you grew up in.

And

there are some things you want to take from your parents, some things you want to do differently.

There's some things that I've tried to carry on, but the interesting thing about this piece to me was

I'd always imagined that I would have to be considerably more like socially conscious for my kids and like a little softer and teach them

for my sons a little softer and to teach them to be compassionate and to be aware of what privileges they have as a man and be aware of things.

Like before toxic masculinity was like a phrase, like I recognized that I was being raised in the world, that these things exist.

So I always imagined that growing up, when I have sons, that's something I'm going to have to teach them.

I'm going to have to compensate because the world does not give that to them.

It's interesting because that ain't the world that we live in.

And so, does that mean, and I think this is how

guys like Jerry Seinfeld are,

if I'm giving them the most generous read,

this is the way that you could potentially articulate that is that someone needs to

show that counterbalance.

But the problem with that is we aren't there yet.

So we aren't at some equilibrium that requires you to pull back.

But for us who grew up in a different time, it seems like,

and it's like kind of perfectly encapsulated by the last line of this piece where the author asks her son what he thinks about the term

boy mom.

And his response was

a pause for a second and said oh it's a trans mom

and it's like i remember thinking that i had to be conscious of teaching my sons that like

different orientations and different um identities are okay

i don't have to like they talk about that in and maybe it's different different places but yeah my kids are more my son i have one son and two daughters my son is more progressive and more understanding of those things

than than I am.

So like figuring out what it, what's required of you as a girl, or excuse me, as a boy mom, or even as a boy dad, what is required of you when you're raising these kids in this particular soup that we have now?

I think you kind of hit on the tension, Paula.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Obviously, I don't have a son.

Another way in which you don't fit into this club with me and Dominique.

But I am very toxically masculine.

You are toxically masculine.

No, Dominique said something something which I think is what's kind of at the root of this, which is the world is now,

and by the world, schools, social systems, internet, everything, you know, pop culture, celebrities, social media.

They are teaching

young men about this stuff that maybe Dominique thought he would have to do, right?

Which is to say

about their own privilege, which on one hand is certainly better than what it was like when we were growing up and boys weren't taught any of those things.

But the concern that she expresses or that certain, I think,

parents express is like, okay, but I don't want him to feel bad about himself.

Is that, does that strike you as a fake concern?

The actual sense that I have about my son, and I think this is the closest thing I can get to like, you don't want your son to feel bad is I want, I've always thought like, all right, when my first child was a girl, I was so conscious of like, I need to make sure she's assertive and she's not afraid to like be, she's not passive and she's not afraid to take what she wants, to be competitive, to like have confidence in herself, to think that she can do the thing before she actually can do it.

Like they say about women generally have to be overqualified before they feel like they are qualified and men are the opposite.

Like that was my

conscious thought for her.

And for my son.

I'd already had a child and already been around other people's sons.

And I realized that that was not going to be the problem.

And I think that's what people fear.

It's not about your kids, or that's the honest fear that you can have is it's not about your kid like feeling bad about themselves.

It's about your son feeling like he has to make room for everyone else to a degree, to a degree that it hurts them.

And that's the thing that I think is something that, if I'm being honest with you, it does pop up in my head.

But I don't have to think about that because I got the opposite of a son.

Like that's not what he's not.

like i am still in a situation where i'm like you are all boy stop it a little just turn it down like a taste well i hear dominique talk about sort of the because he's a lot further along in this than me your journey of raising a boy coming into it thinking i am going to have to

temper him, teach him to not be dominant, teach him to make room for others.

And then the world is doing that, right?

To some degree.

It is very funny.

This is why I love doing the show with you because i always

they appear not intentionally these connections is this how white people feel about caitlin clarity uh and it is but i think it's it's it's uh

the reason why this is tricky is um

similarly to the first story what we're describing which is the world now is enforcing a lot of the things that we certainly didn't grow up.

Enforcing is the wrong word too, but the world is prioritizing things that were not prioritized when we were younger.

Men, boys rather, are learning about things, being exposed to things that they weren't at a young age.

I think that

if there's a tension here or a debate or a cause for concern, which is the subject of the book, it's has that gone too far?

Or has it not gone far enough?

Dominique's saying he doesn't feel like it has because,

or I mean, for your, for your

individual experience, you feel like you know, you're, you don't look at your son and you're like, oh man, he's being told he doesn't get chances and he shouldn't be, you know, assertive.

And you, it seems, yeah.

And I am inclined to agree, um, at least based on just kind of what I've perceived in the world.

Um,

as someone who, you know, is constantly told that she has her job because she's a woman.

I don't feel like we're, you know, we're really getting a leg up on on y'all these days in a way that would make me worried about my son.

This, this last half generation has not undone patriarchy.

Simply put, it's not undone.

Growing up as a boy,

I feel like my entire mission was to seem stronger than I presented.

Because I'm like a little Filipino kid and I need to be like assertive and all of that.

So that part I'm like, I empathize with.

I get that part.

And if you are a boy and you are,

you know, aggressive and that reads as too much,

then I think that

you should be aware of that.

And I think that's something that we should warn our kids about.

But I also think that, like, where I land is, um, this is not new to me.

It's just not the idea of like, I have to modulate my behavior because other people are judging me and thinking about like, am I man enough or not man enough?

Like, that's, that's been the case for at least some people.

And I feel like I resemble that to a degree degree that shaped how I feel about confidence as a concept, to be honest.

I probably am still working at it, actually.

Dominique.

Old buddy, what did you bring us today?

All right, I brought a piece from The Cut

by Liz Krieger.

It's called The Last Kid in Ninth Grade Without an iPhone.

This spoke to me for obvious reasons.

I have a daughter who is headed to the eighth grade and has had a phone since the sixth grade.

And like trying to, and I have an 11-year-old son, eight-year-old daughter who have iPads and want phones at some point.

And this whole like future of technology and our kids is concerning, obviously.

But understanding the right time to do those things.

So this piece talks about some parents who have decided not to give their kids cell phones.

And there's the pros and cons of it where you are,

they argue that they are better adapted and they can sit in silence and they can

sit and be bored and they don't have to.

take their phones out right away.

They aren't exposed to so many negative

things that cause depression and body image issues, issues, like all that stuff.

They are above all of that.

But you know what?

Dang cool.

You're not in a group chat.

You don't know about the latest memes.

And I know that sounds ridiculous, but

maybe you guys' kids are too young for this to be something that you also worry about.

But I do worry about.

my kids having friends and feeling the confidence that comes with that.

And then there's also the challenge of logistics with a cell phone in a modern world where there are lots of things that are going on that require you to be able to contact them and track them and all that other stuff.

My main thought reading this piece was, would I be comfortable with my kid being interviewed in a piece about how they're part of a trend?

Because that's like what you're signing them up for is like, do you want to be a part of this like sort of like revolutionary wave of like a Luddite resistance where they're going to fight back and opt out and they're ahead of the curve?

Because the curve is obvious is as we all know.

I can say that from my experience, Mina, I don't think you're here yet.

Dominique, I presume you have been here for a while because Violet is four.

We were all about like, we are not letting her have screen time.

And then it was like, we need her to stop crying.

We need her to babysit herself right now.

And so we figured out a compromise solution in which we tell ourselves, like, okay, she can watch television, she can watch PBS, you can watch Sesame street we'll choose the nutritious stuff um but an ipad also it's

i i i guess what i'm saying is um

i am not so bold as to deny why this thing this screen is useful and of course the extreme of it like yep not on that side but me know i'm like yeah it's all it all sounds good until you need to like solve a problem in which case you wish you had it i had a really messed up reaction to reading this And I know it's wrong.

And I know

it's not the right response.

And I am very concerned about phone addiction and boredom and

social media.

I think those things affect kids in various serious ways.

And there are things that I think about and read about, and I am worried about.

Obviously, they're further down the road.

But while reading this piece, I was like, oh, you think you're better than me?

Teen.

You think, oh, I can entertain myself.

Oh, I can be alone with my thoughts.

It's not, it's not right.

And

I feel bad.

And

I know it's the wrong reaction, but it's the same reaction I feel to kind of take this beyond the scope of the story to anyone who tells me that they're not on their phone a lot or that they're sort of removed from technology in a way, which is defensiveness, right?

Because it is a reflection on my own addiction.

And

I fully own that.

So

the thing about this is

this piece had a clear, it felt like to me,

agenda, which doesn't mean that it was wrong, but it felt, and maybe this was also, again, just personal bias.

Maybe if I reread it, I don't see it as that way, but it felt like kind of saying that this was the right way to go about it.

And these other kids who have access to social media are doing it the wrong way.

And again, since my daughter has access to a phone, she doesn't have access to all social media.

Like we, there's no Instagram.

It's just YouTube.

There's no Instagram.

There's no TikTok.

There's no Snapchat and that sort of stuff.

And a lot of her friends have access to all those things.

Like we draw the line there.

And that's the thing where every step you take, there's another line that you have to draw.

Then obviously, maybe it's different now, but when I hear Snapchat, I'm like, oh, nah.

That, oh, nah, we ain't, we ain't never going to do that.

Like, you're going to have to be grown before you have access to Snapchat.

Maybe the kids use it differently these days and they have like a pinterest is also like a thing that the kids are really into right now which is at least at her school so all these things feel like they're while it makes it seem like it's one simple decision it's not there's like levels of decisions and i'm balancing the access that i want my daughter to have to the technology with also how much of the in crowd I want her to be in with the risk that it poses because I'm not at a point where I need to give her a phone to keep her busy like that's not the reason to give her a phone is to give her a phone because that's what people have and i felt like while you could argue that giving a kid not argue giving a 13 year old kid unfeathered access to a cell phone is irresponsible you know what's also irresponsible that was in this piece letting a kid traverse the subway without a damn cell phone the new york subway in this piece they said that this girl this girl was going places on the damn new york city subway without a cell phone phone did you feel defensive reading it dominique did you feel like you were being judged as a parent

but this is you guys are much further along on this journey than me um but i have found it's impossible to read anything about parenting without feeling either defensive angry or affirmed like you like it's just i don't know what it is about being a parent but like that so personal it's personal and everybody it like democratizes judgment in a way right Yes.

Well, it's it's because it's someone telling you this is what you should do right and it's like I know what's best for me and what I look for me and by the way I took the subway without a cell phone because I'm a I'm a man

And for me, I were actual pay phones around back then.

That's right

for me

I can easily imagine me saying, you're not getting a phone until what was the recommended cutoff age?

It was like

into high school, right?

Like that was the is that 16.

Well, the thing that was based on the anxiety age or whatever, the height book was said that's 16, which

failed that one.

Well, I think for me, like it's going to be like, yeah, I aspire to abide by the science in which I protect my daughter's brain.

And then she's going to bother me a lot.

And I'm going to give her a phone.

And I'm like, yeah, that's probably how it's going to go.

And then I'm going to be on my phone all the time where where I do 90% of my work.

And she's going to look at, again, the pinky shelf that I have, the bone on my pinky that has been formed because I've been cradling my phone on it for years.

And she's going to say, you're telling me that I can't do work on my phone, and I'm going to give her another phone.

My, the one thing, so my, obviously, my eight-month-old son does not have a phone, but

if I put my phone somewhere in the room, he instinctively crawls towards it.

It's, it's, It's crazy how it works.

He will know how to open a tablet by the time he's like one and a half.

My feeling about this generally is: I think to continue a theme, this can get painted with too broad a brush in that phones are evil.

We all obviously

you can use your phone for a number of things, some of which will be pivotal towards being social, being safe, earning a living.

But moderation would seem to be key.

I actually think the bigger issue is just social media, honestly, more than the concept of a phone.

I know those things are kind of interchangeable, though, especially when you talk about parenting.

Yeah, which is why Mina Kimes is not on Twitter anymore.

I hate it when people are like, whenever you make fun of Twitter, and then there's people like, oh, you hate it so much.

Then leave.

To where?

Reddit.

YouTube comments

blue sky threads I did like that was the the funniest part by the way of the whole Angel Reese Carter thing was that she took the threads to talk and I'm like I wish this story wasn't so toxic because I have so many jokes about

what is that like honestly I was trying to think like what is it like when you when you want to like talk but you want to do it somewhere where other people might not hear it's definitely when your parents piss you off and

you talk back to them, but from your room as if they could hear you.

What did we find out today, guys?

What did we find out today on Pablo Torre finds out, a show about finding stuff out?

That I don't really know Pablo Torre.

That's what I found today.

I thought we were friends and I thought I knew you, but you have a series of filters between your brain and your mouth that I thought you didn't have because you also.

Ask me a question.

Ask me a question and I will answer bluntly at a meeting.

What did you learn today, Pablo?

What I learned today is that everything is Caitlin Clark.

Parenting is Caitlin Clark.

Cell phones are Caitlin Clark.

The concept of masculinity is Caitlin Clark.

Caitlin Clark, maybe the least Caitlin Clark of all the Caitlin Clarks we've discussed today.

Everything is designed to get us mad, and sports seems to be the place where we're actually being the most honest version of ourselves and actually

getting audibly angry.

But isn't it incredible that sports, the court, is the only place where I think this might go okay

for her in the long run?

Like, I think that part of this whole thing is going to be fine.

It's everything else that's the problem.

What quartz are we talking about?

But of course, a show like a good team is more than any one person.

And Pablo Torre finds out is produced by Michael Antonucci, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rachel Miller-Howard, Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tumanello, and Juliet Warren.

Our studio engineering by RG Systems, our post-production by NGW Post, our theme song by John Bravo.

I will talk to you on Tuesday.