How Muhammad Ali’s Grammy-Nominated Comedy Album Changed Everything

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out.

I am Pablo Torre and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

Hey, aren't you Mahamali?

Yes indeed.

That's who I am.

Wow, the greatest.

Right after this ad.

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That was terrible.

I could just keep this part in.

It just did it later.

Keep this part in.

Try it.

Try again.

All right, here we go.

That was slightly better.

Slightly better.

I could talk shit about your clapping ability for a very long time.

No, don't.

But it reminds me of what we're here to talk about today, which is that this is allegedly, Cortez, the golden age of talking shit.

Yes, it is the golden age of talking shit.

You know what I think of when I think of that?

I have a guess.

It involves the real housewives of Salt Lake City.

Of course it is.

Because on the reunion leak.

I can't believe you're starting with this.

Actually, I can.

Of course I can.

You said trash talk.

I'm bringing you the GOAT trash talker right now.

Her name's Monica Garcia.

She was a fan of the show.

She got people thrown in jail on the show now she started a burner account on the show and now the reunion a burner account about the show rather now at the reunion she's throwing haymakers like this she is a genius trash talker go ahead why are you talking where are you talking

shut up yeah

i'm like this is not gonna involve you just like most monicas did we ever make yo that went hard

when you said that she had someone uh thrown in jail was that literally jail yeah jen Jen Shaw.

She got arrested because of Monica Garcia.

It's an amazing show.

This is for another episode.

Do I even want to exactly?

I don't actually want to really follow up on how it is that that person actually got sentenced or apprehended by the police.

Defrauding the elderly.

Carrie.

Very good.

Very good.

That is, unfortunately, a great example.

That was pretty good.

Thank you.

And it's actually symptomatic of the larger way in which all of sports is now that.

What do you think of when you think of Trash Shaw?

What's going on?

When you're watching the AFC title game, Azay Flowers.

Azay Flowers, right?

Gets flagged for taunting, standing over that Chiefs defender.

Joe Burrow jumps in on Twitter, says, you know, let the guys taunt.

Yes, big real housewives of Salt Lake City energy from Joe Burrow.

I agree with her.

From the sideline, in this case, a benchwarming

during this postseason.

But also like Luca, right?

Because fans are obviously in on this.

And so Luca got that guy kicked out of Dallas.

Because apparently the fan had said to Luca, yelled at him, Luca, you tired.

Get on the treadmill.

Honestly, not that offensive.

Like, whatever and what's funny is that luca then days later scores 70 and right not terribly tired but i mean that's a blowout but if yes like a real blowout in the context of what we're talking about to me is like what stephen a did to jason whitlock because that was just absolutely incredible can we play some of that please

he is the worst human being any of you will ever meet.

You get within a mile of his presence, wrap your arms around yourself to protect your soul

he is king

he is a devil

the worst

that's all I have to say

y'all have a nice day I'm gonna go about my business I will not speak about this piece of shit again.

Peace and love.

I forgot that it ends with peace and love.

It's the best, bro.

As an orator, he is the greatest.

So, so

Stephen A.

on Whitlock, I want to add a couple of things for the audience to know.

I want to let them in behind the scenes of what we do here in our newsroom.

Yeah.

We have never spiked an episode until the time that Dan visited New York and he sat where you sat,

are sitting now.

And

we attempted to do an episode about Kane himself, the level, the lost tapes.

I mean, those are buried now.

And I won't get into right now why we spiked it.

Just know that we tried and there was some shit in there.

And I decided journalistically, like, we're not ready to report this in public yet.

Yeah, because the bar on this is what Stephen A did.

And we haven't even gotten to the real bar.

The real bar

to me is

a line that on paper doesn't sound as

impactful as calling someone a biblical traitor, but in delivery.

I mean, it was this.

I couldn't write, huh?

While you were on Blaze TV,

spewing that bullshit to people.

Did you tell them that?

Did you tell them how you stood outside outside of First Take begging me to talk to you?

Did you tell them that once this same article in Deadspin came out,

weeks later you wrote a lengthy apology to me in an email begging me to forgive you, pointing out how you were betrayed by this particular writer, so you know how I must feel that you betrayed me?

Did you tell the folks that?

You b ⁇

Did you tell them?

You fat piece of shit.

Did you tell him that?

You were a great writer.

Your mistake was you started talking.

And worse, wanting to be seen while you were talking,

which is why your quality and your value plummeted.

Damn.

Because when we see you and we listen to you,

we know how worthless you are.

Stephen A.

says the B word in a way that I have not heard delivered from him because it just felt like it came from the soul.

The most real, deep place inside of him.

To me, what I love about that and what I see when I watch that is almost like a bouncing vibrancy to him in the first part of that clip when he's running through the things and he's like, did you tell him that?

Did you remember?

And he's almost like.

And he gets real close.

Yes.

And the second part of the clip is even more in a different performance of slowing it down.

Yes.

Pace-wise, there's nobody that could do both.

The one pushback I will give, Cortez, which brings us around to today's episode, is that you called him the greatest.

And it's

an understandable claim.

It's just not true.

I don't know how I could be wrong on that.

So go ahead.

So

what I wanted to do today is educate people about genuinely the greatest trash talker of all time.

We talk about how Stephen A.

in that way is a poet.

I want to bring actual poetry to the proceedings here.

I want to tell people the story of the literal greatest of all time as he came to be known, as he appointed himself, and how it is that he actually earned that title to the point where he got, he got nominated for a Grammy.

And that's that's after the break.

You.

If you're looking to add something special to your next celebration, try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

This smooth, flavorful cognac is crafted from the finest grapes and aged to perfection, giving you rich notes of oak and caramel with every sip.

Whether you're celebrating a big win or simply enjoying some cocktails with family and friends, Remy Martin 1738 is the perfect spirit to elevate any occasion.

So go ahead, treat yourself to a little luxury, and try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

Learn more at remymartin.com.

Remy Martin Cognac feeding champagne and force and alcoholic volume reported by Remy Control, USA Incorporated in Europe, New York, 1738, Centaur Design.

Please drink responsibly.

So, Justin Tensely, I'm always excited when you text me with a story.

This time, I was both deeply excited and also a little embarrassed.

Why is that?

Because I did not know about something that I have now become obsessed with that you turned me on to.

And I am a person whose show is ostensibly about the ways in which sports sort of like overflow out into the wider world of America and its history.

Yeah.

And this is like just one of the best stories I've now learned about thanks to you.

We're talking about Muhammad Ali.

For the majority of this conversation, you'll probably hear us refer to him as his birth name, Cassius Clay.

At 21 years old, this dude earned a Grammy nomination, probably the most consequential Grammy nomination of all time for

a comedy album.

A comedy album, Pablo.

It's absurd.

It's Grammy season.

The Grammys are happening this weekend.

And the awards ceremony we're about to dive into here at the top, they happened exactly 60 years ago.

So this is 1964.

yep and so the nominees also in the category of best comedy album were who bill cosby and he would do a thing that would you call chain stoking which is you breathe and then you stop you know and he used to bug us really because you're

damn

breathe so we can breathe oh thanks a lot jamie witch you know that kind of thing

yeah and just Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner happened to be there too, other comedy Hollywood legends.

First, I'd like you to meet the German representative from Narzi Narzi.

Narzi

from the Narzi Film Company,

Herr Adolf Hartler.

Good afternoon, Herr Hartler.

Hi, Hartler.

How are you?

The Smothers Brothers were there.

The Smothers Brothers.

Soap, soap, soap, soap, soap, soap, soap.

What are you doing?

Trying to say about eight bars.

And this guy, Alan Sherman, who I didn't know by name, but know certainly by saw.

Hello, Mara.

Hello, Spotify.

And the fifth nominee, Cassius Clay,

whose album title, perhaps the most appropriate album title in the history of album titles.

And the most subtle.

And the most subtle for I am the greatest.

I am the greatest.

By Cassius Clay.

This is the legend of Cassius Clay, the most beautiful fighter in the world today.

He talks a great deal and brags indeed.

of a muscular punch that's incredibly speedy.

What's crazy about this thing is that it goes on to explain all of these actual enormous stories and historical events that i did know about but now because i see it through the lens of i am the greatest

make just a lot more sense to me when you look at the dates and when you look at the events with associated with these these dates you're going to start to see like wait this led to the the birth of muhammad ali this led to conversations that we would have around black Muslims, aka the nation of Islam.

This would lead to him protesting the Vietnam War.

This would lead to something like the birth of hip-hop years later.

And even more specifically, I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that this was arguably the first recorded diss track.

And it wasn't even a diss track.

It was a diss album.

Over 10 tracks, right?

And that's how it starts.

10 tracks of musical trash talk.

And so 21-year-old Cassius Clay, his subject, his target, in full clarity,

is who in 1963.

Sonny Liston.

And when I say his name right now, I get goosebumps saying it.

Sonny Liston and I have never walked the earth at the same time.

And I'm still scared of this dude.

This is the most menacing guy, not just in boxing, but probably in popular culture at this point.

And that's who a 21-year-old Cassius Clay was openly taunting.

Friends, Romans, countrymen,

lend me your ears.

I come to bury Liston, not to praise him.

I'm going to fight Sonny Liston.

That is, if he doesn't chicken out,

I will win that fight because I'm president of the boxing world and this fist is my veto.

I am the greatest.

Mr.

Liston is an old man.

He's 30 years old.

He has no business been in the same ring with me.

I'd like to help that poor old man.

I want to give him lessons, boxing lessons, talking lessons.

I'll teach him anything.

But since he's going to fight me, what he needs most is falling lessons.

So, I want to establish that the mythology you're about to say here is not actually mythology.

No, no.

This is real.

The facts on Sonny Liston in 1963, when Muhammad Ali was then Cassius Clay, 21 years old.

And by the way, Cassius Clay at this point had never been heavyweight champion of the world.

No, no, he hasn't.

He was an up-and-coming boxer.

And the man who had that title, which also meant you were the biggest and baddest athlete,

human being on earth, belonged to Sonny Liston.

That was the belt that he owned.

And Sonny Liston was more than just like a good heavyweight.

He was what?

He was an all-time great heavyweight.

Like this dude was a problem in the ring, but he was also a problem outside of the ring, which only added to the mystique around him.

If I can, I want to read a quote from Henry Conrad.

This is in Thomas Hauser's 1992 biography, Muhammad Ali, His Life and Times.

This is an exact quote.

Sonny Liston was a mean fishing.

He got out, went back again for beating up a cop, wound up being managed by organized crime.

When Sonny gave you the evil eye, I don't care who you were, you shrunk to two feet tall.

And oh, yeah, one more thing.

He could fight like hell.

Like this stuff about like the mob ties, real.

These are real ties that he had.

Sonny, listen, just maybe a more simpler way to say it.

This was the guy that a young Mike Tyson idolized and looked up to and also feared.

Listen, what the real thing, you know, like some guys out here, they get in the paper.

Listen, was knocking the cops out, breaking the juice, knocking.

So when he comes to a town, Listen comes to Philadelphia, so to speak.

The cops made a call.

They come to the train station, the bus station, wherever he is.

You can't come here.

You get on the bus and leave.

They won't let him.

St.

Louis, you can't come here.

The cops at the train station.

Get on the bus and leave.

They won't let him come in the states.

Formidable, mean son of a.

And he happened to be a fighter.

Dude, like Chuck Webner.

I had 147 fights.

Four world champions I fought.

I fought nine guys in the top 10.

The real life inspiration for Rocky Balboa has said nobody ever hit me like that guy.

Every time he hit you, he broke something.

So I went to 10 rounds with him.

He broke my nose, my left cheekbone, and gave me 72 stitches.

And for good measure, by the way, George Foreman, one of the great heavyweights of all time, he trained with Sonny Liston.

And what Foreman said was, oh, Sonny Liston, no doubt the scariest human being I've met in the ring.

But I want to point out here that Sonny Liston became a household name because in 1962 now, he had knocked out Floyd Patterson.

And Floyd Patterson, again, for the kids out there, this is an all-time great.

This was the defending heavyweight champion of the world.

Sonny Liston knocked his ass out in two minutes and six seconds into the first round.

Yes.

He becomes champion.

The next year, 1963, Sonny Liston knocks out Floyd Patterson again in two minutes and 10 seconds.

Again, in the first round to defend his belts.

He had just knocked Floyd Patterson out again for a second time.

And he said this quote, a prize fight is like a cowboy movie.

There has to be a good guy and a bad guy.

People pay their money to see me lose.

Only in my cowboy movie, the bad guy always wins.

He's a villain, right?

He's a villain dude like there is no hyperbole with this guy like no he's i mean if you told me that sunny liston was dangling people out of windows yes i'd be like yeah that tracks yeah and that's just the appetizer right and so and so this is all to say that that is the man

that a 21 a 21 old cassius clay is like baiting he's actively calling him out and he because cassius clay of course you'd be unsurprised to learn i suppose um was an ambitious young man yeah yeah that's the one I would have put it.

And Sonny Liston's response about what he wanted to do to Cassius Clay

was,

yeah, not all that subtle either.

If he would cut him to me,

I kill him.

And if he ran him, I'll catch him and kill him.

It's also worth pointing out that Cassius Clay at this point, you know, this was not like him winning over everybody with his boxing acumen.

March 1963, Cassius Clay had just fought Doug Jones in front of Madison Square Garden.

He had sold out the the garden, which was great.

But the garden didn't exactly love the fact that Clay eked out this decision over Doug Jones.

Cassius Clay is mimicking some of the people who are bullying the decision.

Well, Doug Jones, very nonchalantly, says anything.

Debris is coming into the ring now.

And here.

And then, June 1963, a couple months later,

Cassius Clay goes to Wembley Stadium in London, and it's a big fight, and he knocks out Henry Cooper.

But in the process, Henry Cooper also knocks him down.

He falls backwards into the ropes.

So here is Cassius Clay now kind of limping.

Yeah.

He's limping into the summer of 1963.

He is known as a huge talker already, as this self-promoter who is certainly like wildly talented in that respect, but nobody saw saw him as on the level of Sonny Liston.

So in August 63, he has a press conference at the Americana Hotel.

This is an event.

This is a production.

He's not just like, hey, meet me at the ballroom at the Americana and I want to talk to y'all about something.

He's announcing this comedy album and it's through Columbia Records, which is an enormous music publishing house.

They signed him to a recording contract, which about the time it was around $25,000.

Now, account for inflation in 2024, that's about a quarter million.

Right.

That's a lot.

That's real money.

That's real money.

We know he can talk.

We know he's sure about himself, but what do you have to say on an album?

Right.

What is this going to sound like?

And now, ladies and gentlemen,

from Louisville, Kentucky, wearing black tie,

Mr.

Cassius...

Marcellus Clay.

And here's another crazy thing about this comedy album.

It's recorded in front of a live audience.

Right.

So he's not just cracking jokes and he's the only one in the studio.

He's cracking jokes and he's getting that immediate gratification from the audience.

No, this is itself like an athletic event.

Yes.

200 people.

It's at the Columbia Records Studios in Manhattan.

And you'll hear pretty immediately, these motherfuckers were loving it.

Yes.

I am the greatest

by Cassius Clay.

This is the legend of Cassius Clay, the most beautiful fighter in the world today.

He talks a great deal and brags indeed of a muscular punch that's incredibly speedy.

The fistic world was dull and weary.

With a champ-like listen, things had to be dreary.

Then someone with color, someone with dash, brought fight fans a running with cash.

Dude, like, so at this point in ali's career i think he's fought maybe around like 20 21 professional fights undefeated undefeated and in 13 of those he predicted the exact round that the fight would end yes he had this thing where he was calling his shot yes and it was actually working which was prophetic and and a real like subplot to everything he would ever say when you listen to i am the greatest you understand that everything about this album, Pablo, everything was intentional.

From the fact that like each song wasn't a song or a track it was called a round here i predict mr liston's dismemberment i'll hit him so hard he'll wonder where october and november went

the track list on this yes is hilarious round one

i am the greatest Round two,

I am the double greatest.

And so when you listen to to this, the other thing that becomes clear too, which I didn't know until I spent my week like having this on repeat, is that Cassius Clay is also kind of in on this joke.

Oh, yeah.

So him as a performer, him is both a guy with an ego, obviously, obviously.

He's picking himself to win and knock people out all the time.

But when he declares himself the greatest, there is this wink to it, like a bit of self-awareness coming through that all of this is also absurd.

Listen's fall will mark the arrival of spring.

Yes, there's going to be a new champion, a champion you can tell your kids to be like.

I'm a perfect idols for the kids.

I'm good looking, clean living, cultured, and I am modest.

Just like him, again, actively trolling Sam.

Yeah, but I want to talk about track three.

Excuse me.

I want to talk about round three.

It's called Do You Have to Ask?

And when you listen to it, there's like this call and response method.

It reminds you of a Greek chorus.

But when you listen to it, it's kind of like the predecessor for what will become hip-hop music.

Caches of old drop Caesar 20 centuries ago.

Go, go, go.

And this caches will cool Liston, as you already know.

No, no, no.

Yes, yes, yes.

For at the end of the bout, you are going to hear the ref shout.

The winner and new champion.

Mr.

Liston won't see that the victor is me.

Far stars are all he'll be seen.

Winkle, winkle, winkle stars.

Listen.

There's an article from Esquire magazine in 63, written by Tom Wolfe, one of the great writers of all time.

And he's there for the rehearsals.

And he's watching Ali, Cassius Clay, micromanage.

Yes.

And it's so funny to imagine that scene while also looking again at this track list.

Oh my God.

Because from here, it begins to resemble the track list does like the Andre 3000 flute album.

Yes.

Where it's like the night in Hawaii when I turned into a Panther.

You know, like that, that track.

Because round four

is titled What?

I have written a drama, he said playfully.

Yes, the sentence.

Yes,

that's the title of the song.

I'm not quoting him.

That's the title of the song.

Round five, will the real Sonny listen please fall down?

Round six, funny you should ask.

No, literally, that's the title.

That's the title.

Funny, you should ask.

Round seven, 2138.

Yep.

And round eight, appropriately titled, The Knockout.

And there was this question heading in, right?

Like, okay, we have this athlete.

He's awesome at sports.

Cool.

We're going to have him do music stuff.

Yep.

Is this going to feel, as Tom Wolf put it, like this is forcing piano lessons on somebody?

Cassius Clay, quote, was desperately interested in whether or not his lines were genuinely funny.

He tried them out on every newcomer who came into the room.

That is the quote that Tom Wolf put into his piece in Esquire.

That's what he observed.

And again,

you listen to this album, that was the rehearsal, and it all adds up.

He took it seriously.

And there's this really great quote that he ends round seven, 2138, and he's playing 175-year-old man at this point.

Let's just be clear.

2138, the year.

Yes.

Cashius Clay is now 175 years old.

That's the perspective of the song.

Keep in mind, we're just in 2024 right now.

You know, we still got a long way till 2138 comes around.

But in it, and I think this is one of the more powerful things that, especially in terms of foresight, that he ever said.

And he ends the track like this, and I quote: To this nation, I've made this bequest.

So spread the word north and south.

Some folks leave their brains to science.

But when I go, I'm leaving my mouth.

It's the greatest.

So for you,

the best track on I Am the Greatest, musically speaking, is what?

I have to go round five.

Will the real Sonny listen, please fall down?

And when we talk about like hip-hop and disc records, I want to read some lyrics out for y'all.

And I'm going to try, I'm not even going to try to read it in Cassius Clay's tone because there's only one hymn.

But when you listen to this, understand the intention behind every line and what it was he was trying to do.

And it starts like this: Clay comes out to meet Liston, and Liston starts to retreat.

But if he goes back an inch further, he'll end up in a ringside seat.

Clay swings with his left, Clay swings with his right.

Look at young Cassius carry the fight.

Listen keeps backing, but there's not enough room.

It's a matter of time, Aaron Clay lost the boom.

Now Clay lands a right.

What a beautiful swing.

The punch raises Liston clear out of the ring.

Liston's still rising and the ref wears a frown.

For he can't start counting till sunny comes down.

Now Liston disappears from view.

The crowd is getting frantic.

But our radar stations have picked him up.

He's somewhere over the Atlantic.

Who would have thought when they came to the fight that they witnessed the launching of a human satellite?

Yes, the crowd did not dream when they put down their money that they would see a total eclipse of the sun.

So this is our way, by the way, of setting the stage for one of the

greatest sporting events that have ever happened.

So this is the actual Ollie listened fight.

We're in February 1964 now.

It's 60 years ago this month as well.

And the reality for people who maybe were swayed as persuadable voters here

by Cassius Clay, the reality was that Las Vegas had Sonny Liston as a seven-to-one favorite.

It was actually, according to reporting at the time, I went through newspapers, it was almost impossible to find a bookie who would even take the bet and that's respect the listing yes exactly it was because everyone was like he's obviously going to destroy this dude if we're going to take these bets we're just going to lose money even at seven to one right good evening ladies and gentlemen welcome to miami beach florida miami beach convention hall and i was reading uh david remnick's book on ali which is great remnick reported that the new york times before this fight had mapped out the route from the miami beach convention hall to the hospital because they expected that a now 22 year old Cassius Clay would wind up there.

And so even his lawyers, Cassius Clay's lawyer, was like,

he said apparently that he mostly hoped his client would emerge, quote, alive and unhurt.

But guess what?

That bell rang.

Cassius Clay on the move, as we see, looking to get Sonya Lun,

carrying his left hand dangerously low.

So when you watch this fight, that album is in the back of your mind.

But the thing you see immediately from the opening bell is like, yo, Clay is like droves faster than Liston.

Like, how is Liston going to catch this guy in the ring?

Yes.

Slippery is a word that the announcers use on the telecast.

And Sonny Liston is just missing him by like two feet.

He's dancing around.

He's got that, you know, that prototypical Ali flair.

The shuffle.

The shuffle.

He's dodging and like tagging Liston and like Liston can't catch him.

No, and everybody watching, who again had clearly either bet on Cassius Clay to lose or were assuming him to be hurt in some way,

they're realizing, oh my God, this kid might not be full of shit.

This kid might be the greatest.

Like he really might be everything he said he was.

And so remember that Cassius Clay had predicted.

It was an eight-round catalog he had given.

And so he was like a knockout in the eighth round.

But what's crazy about this fight, what's even wilder about all of this, is that by the end of the sixth round,

Cassius Clay has cut Sonny Liston's face open.

He is bleeding.

The cameras are zooming in

as he is tended to by his corner man.

Now they're working, as we note, with our camera shots in there below the left eye.

They've already worked below the right eye.

There you see them.

Joe Polino trying to keep that cut closed.

Do you feel as though Sonny being busted up a little bit, puffed up a little bit around the face?

Will this make a difference?

I want to play the ABC broadcast for you here.

This is the ABC radio

broadcast.

It's Howard Kosell, the late, great Howard Kosell.

And this is what he says.

All I can say is what Rocky Marciano has just said.

This is hard to figure out as we come up to round seven.

Play looks like he had about had it coming into the fourth round.

Now,

wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

Sonny Liston's not coming out.

Sonny Liston is not coming out.

He's out.

The winner and the new heavyweight champion of the world is Cassius Clay.

My son going up into the ring.

I get goosebumps on this.

Yo, dude, I literally just got goosebumps during that.

He made Sonny Liston quit.

He made Sonny Liston didn't leave the corner.

No, so this is before the seventh round.

Before the seventh round.

So reality is actually even better than the prediction that Cassius Clay had made of knocking him out in the eighth.

Yeah.

And immediately after it's clear that the fight is over, Cassius Clay is now, of course, mobbed.

Microphones are jammed in his face.

And when you listen to him in this moment, it is like he had walked out of the Columbia Record Studio

directly in front of this microphone because he says this.

I have upset the world.

Give me justice.

You're the king of the king.

You don't ever believe it would happen.

I told you if you want to go to heaven or get him in seven, I am the king.

I am the king.

I am the king.

What made him so easy player?

Because I'm too fast.

He was was scared.

I was too fast.

He was too.

He was scared.

But you know a crazy thing that happened with Cassius Clay immediately following this fight?

You got to go back to the actual album.

Now,

you couldn't find that album in stores the day after that fight.

So the album has sold up to that point 30,000 records.

That was respectable.

But after this fight, it propelled that album to the 500,000 copy sold threshold, which is a gold record.

Yeah, which is gold.

You had respectable publications like the milwaukee journal that they call the greatest the comedy album of the year my favorite detail is everyone's trying to monetize this yeah the immediate aftermath because of course this is capitalism right is that they're like we need to get this dude back on the radio right and so what do they do so uh

We're going to push his cover of stand by me onto radio stations.

Benny King, one of the most popular songs of the day and all time for the record.

So we're going to push this out there.

And when you listen to it, it's like, wait, like, he's not Benny King, but he ain't bad either.

No, he, he, he is singing

in this.

When the night

has come

and the land is dark,

and the moon

is the only

light we see.

No, I won't be afraid.

No, I won't be afraid.

Just as long

as you stand,

stand by me.

Yo, imagine having your ass kicked by this dude.

More sales than the Beatles, the fing beatles,

bro.

In 64 now, more sales than Barbara Streisand had.

And all of that was going gangbusters for Columbia Records.

Yep.

Until something else that happened, which was also the day after Cassius Clay beat Sonny Liston.

This is the nuts part about it.

Cassius Clay was no longer known as Cassius Clay.

Why don't you like to be called Clay anymore?

No, Clay was not my name.

Once we

follow the

believe, hear the, understand the teachings of the honorable Elijah Muhammad and come into knowledge of ourselves, then we want to be called after names of our people,

which are names that fit us black people.

And Clay was a white man's name.

It was a slave name.

And I'm no longer Clay.

I'm no longer a slave.

So now I'm Muhammad Ali.

So when you take into account that he changed his name and now he's directly aligned with the nation of Islam, people have been assuming this for months.

Malcolm X had been at a lot of his fights.

Malcolm X was a very close friend of his.

It's unfortunate, but it's also easy to understand why the sales tanked after that.

Because Columbia Records panicked because it was like, yo, we cannot put a guy named Muhammad Ali front and center.

His entire livelihood was basically threatened at this point.

Right.

Remember what he was singing about, what he was performing poetry about, which he was the perfect role model for kids.

And yet, all of this room full of white people laughing.

He was this leader of this room, right?

Of these people who were exactly who a PR person for Columbia Records might imagine would now be terrified of

if he was, in fact a member of the nation of Islam.

And so all of that roaring laughter, that crowd that loved it, was applauding it, was laughing too hard sometimes.

Yeah.

All that just stops.

It stopped on a dime.

And when you look at the course of Ali's life, let's just say the next two, three years, so much changed.

By February 1965, Malcolm X had been assassinated.

Malcolm X, who was one of his closest friends, and years later, Muhammad Ali would go on to write that turning his back on Malcolm X was the single biggest regret of his life.

And he was like, I wish he was still here so I could tell him how right he was about so many things.

So his good friend Sam Cook, who was on the original version of this album, was murdered in December 1964.

And oh, yeah, a couple of years later, this guy basically gets the prime years of his career stripped away from him because he said, I'm not going to Vietnam.

Why should me and other so-called Negroes go 10,000 miles away from home here in America to drop bombs and bullets on other innocent brown people who's never bothered us?

And I will say directly, no, I will not go.

Here's the thing about Vietnam that I think a lot of people really don't understand in terms of just Ali's boxing career.

Pablo,

we watch a lot of sports.

We've been watching a lot of sports all our lives.

And we know in boxing, if you take the ages 25 to 28,

that is the meat of your prime.

Ali never had 25 to 28.

The years 1967 to 1970 are blank for him because he couldn't fight.

This is all before he turns 30, by the way.

Right.

And so.

When we think of the Muhammad Ali that we know today,

who is, by the way, now pretty unimpeachably exactly what everyone was laughing at him for saying, which is the greatest.

We think about his fights against Foreman and Joe Frazier and all of these guys.

And all of that stuff happens flowing out of this sort of domino effect.

flowing out of that comedy album.

And the thing that jumped out at me as I was reading through these books this past week

was that this entire time, right, like this whole story is about fearlessness.

And Muhammad Ali had held a secret about how he really felt the night he faced Sonny Liston.

The night before he became brave enough to become Muhammad Ali.

He faces the baddest man in the world.

And what he says is this, quote, that's the only time I was ever scared in the ring.

Sonny Liston, first time, first round, said he was going to kill me.

Sonny Liston was, before I fought him, considered one of the greatest fighters in history.

Sonny Liston had a punch that knocked out Claude Patterson just about one round twice.

One fist as big as Booper Man.

Everybody was scared of him.

Were you scared of Liston?

Scared to death.

And so when you see it through something he would confess, as he said, you know, years and years later, that actually...

That 21-year-old who walked into the ring in Miami that night,

that kid was terrified.

It changes actually also the way the album sounds when you listen to it again.

Absolutely.

And it's one of the more relatable concepts about the album because we've all been that young kid who was like probably bullshit their way into a room that we probably didn't deserve to be.

Around the horn for us.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Around the horn for us.

Like, oh, shit.

He's a 21-year-old basically building his confidence up on the fly, which is a very dangerous move because if it doesn't work out, that's how you're remembered in history.

Right.

He goes all in on himself.

Yeah.

And he's doing it in a way that, again, I got to cite David Remnick here because Remnik interviews Floyd Patterson years and years later about Ali in this book.

And this is what Floyd Patterson tells him.

And it kind of, when I read this, it kind of just explained everything to me about why Cassius Clay was doing all of this in the way that he did that young.

Floyd Patterson said this: quote, I never liked all his bragging.

It took me a long time to understand who Clay was talking to.

Clay was talking to clay

all of clay's bragging was a way to convince himself that he could do what he said he'd do and when you see that in that way man yeah man like he's actually trying to motivate himself to convince himself he's the person who needed to be convinced that he was the greatest this entire time that's some deep when you really look at it because

You're basically playing your own experiences, your own emotions out on the world stage.

It's different, you know, know, sitting on the couch with your friends, like, oh, yeah, I'm going to be the greatest at whatever.

I'm going to make the league one day.

Yeah, I'm going to make the league.

No, you're doing it in front of the world.

The cameras are here.

The reporters are here.

Your life, your safety, your physical health is on the line.

Exactly.

And to know that, like you just said, He pushed all the chips to the center of the table on him.

He bet.

This is the literal interpretation of betting on yourself and winning beyond your wildest imagination.

But it's important to point this out.

64 is the year that changed Ali's life.

He became the greatest.

He beat Sonny Liston, but he did take an L that year.

He didn't win the Grammy for Best Comedy album after all this.

Sorry, if you got this far in the podcast, you're thinking he won.

Surprise, surprise.

He lost to Alan Sherman.

Alan Sherman beat that ass.

Yeah, Alan Sherman, Sonny Listenden.

Hello, Mother.

Hello, Madam.

Dude, Dude put on a propeller on his head for the record.

And this is who he lost to.

I demand a fing recount.

I demand a fing recount.

Are you serious?

Alan Sherman put a propeller on his head and he is singing hello Mudda.

Hello Fada.

Cassius Clay just beat the scariest man in the world.

He didn't even come

out the corner.

But the good news for Muhammad Ali

is that he would get get another shot at the Grammys.

And this is where it's just like the story doesn't end, right?

So, Muhammad Ali, it's 1976 now.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

And he gets a second Grammy nomination because he's returned to the recording studio to take on what was arguably maybe the only opponent scarier than Sonny Liston, Justin Tinsley.

Tooth decay.

Calm down.

Hey, what are you doing here?

I have a new battle coming up.

Win!

Win food!

This is a different kind of battle.

And I have to train just as hard.

Eat the right kind of food, and good healthy exercise won't hurt either.

But this one's against Mr.

Tooth Decay and the terrible, terrible things that brings that nasty Mr.

Tooth Decay around.

So I should say that this extremely real album, Justin.

Yes, it's real.

The adventures of Ali and His Gang versus Mr.

Tooth Decay

got nominated for a Grammy for best children's music album.

Which honestly, Pablo, it makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

Like this dude was literally known for his mouth and he's promoting good oral hygiene to kids.

Like it makes total sense.

And so he comes full circle again.

Yep.

He gets to be the role model.

This is now, again, 76.

Yeah.

Right.

And now we think of Ali, right?

As you called him at the beginning of the show.

Like one of the most popular men ever.

Yeah.

And so now you understand what he went through to come back around to claiming that title to be a guy who parents would be like, listen to Muhammad Ali, brush your fing teeth.

It was in the cast on this, dude.

He's got Howard Cosell.

He's got Frank Sinatra.

Like, this is a who's who.

These are A-listers.

My friends, have you seen two funny-looking characters running amok around here?

Hey, aren't you Muhammad Ali?

Yes, indeed.

That's who I am.

Wow, the greatest and the fastest.

Wait that game yes about this.

Yeah, Charles, let's go to it.

Hey, hey, wait a minute.

May I come too?

Oh boy, oh boy, this is your man.

When you texted me,

if you had told me this is all gonna end with dentistry.

Yep, tooth decay, bro.

I would have not believed you.

Pablo, hear me out.

Muhammad Ali, tooth decay, sprinkle in Sonny listed in the middle.

We got an episode, baby.

A little nation of Islam in Vietnam.

Hey, look.

Some mafia.

We check all the boxes here.

It's just one of my favorite stories of all time, Justin.

Pablo, you know I love talking about stories like this to you.

We always do an incredible deep dive, and this is just the latest.

Yeah, my wife asks me, why are you listening to an album about tooth decay on repeat?

And I'm like, honey.

Because, honey, Justin Tinsley is trying to help me tell the story of the greatest mouth in sports history.

Thank you, dude.

Thank you.

This has been Pablo Torre finds out, a Meadowlark media production.

And I'll talk to you next time.