Share & Tell & Somethingburgers with Domonique Foxworth and David Samson

Transcript

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Speaker 27 I'm Pablo Torre, and this episode of Pablo Torre finds out is brought to you by Remy Martin 1738, Accord Royale. Exceptionally smooth cognac for all your game day festivities.

Speaker 27 Please drink responsibly because today we're going to find out what this sound is. I learned that Pablo is a lot like Roger Goodell.
Oh, wow. Whoa.

Speaker 27 Right after this ad.

Speaker 27 um are we rolling we are very good

Speaker 27 so do i log my complaints now or

Speaker 27 on air are they about me or are they about david no they're about you about you we can do them later we can do those later we don't have to do that

Speaker 27 you know

Speaker 27 why are you looking why is david looking around for dominique you're looking oh you want to see dominique can we see dominique who doesn't hold on you sound disconsolate.

Speaker 27 There he is.

Speaker 27 Disconsolate. Why is Dominique disconsolate?

Speaker 28 I don't know. He just sounds a little down.
He sounds as though he knows he's walking into a show where you're the central figure yet again.

Speaker 27 Oh, you think that's Dominique's concern? Nah, my concern is that I'm the central figure and that Pablo set me up, but that's fine.

Speaker 28 I'm just excited to be here with Dominique because Pablo didn't set up Dominique. He told you exactly what the show was.

Speaker 27 A setup is

Speaker 27 just coming up. There was a little legna croix.

Speaker 27 Would you like me to explain the setup? See, this is this is one of the reasons why David is

Speaker 27 a wonderful person to be around is because he doesn't believe that he needs any more information than information he already has. Like,

Speaker 27 you don't know this process and how I could feel set up.

Speaker 28 I'm always looking for data points. Tell me what what Pablo did.
I thought, see, if there's side beef going on that I don't know about, then I don't know.

Speaker 28 But there was a group chat that was me, you, and Dominique preparing for today. If you're doing stuff on the side, how can I comment on that?

Speaker 27 Oh, no, no. The group chat was

Speaker 27 had been going on for a while, and this date had been marked for a while. Pablo did

Speaker 27 extensive expose and uncovered secret documents about an organization that's very near and dear to my heart. He asked me to involve myself in that broadcast, and I said no.

Speaker 27 But Pablo strategically strategically released that show the day before he was going to have me on his show. So,

Speaker 27 I mean, it's, I guess I could have been like, no, I'm not coming on your show now, but I guess that's on me. So I guess that's how you would argue that it's not a setup.

Speaker 27 I think it's a setup, but I walked into it willingly, I guess. Just a little menage trois.

Speaker 28 I think that if you did plan it that way, then a tip of the chapeau to you because you could get the leak on your the show at any time.

Speaker 27 So the reason I love our group chat beyond the fact that all of us text extraordinarily differently from each other. That is very interesting.

Speaker 27 I would say that the three of us are like as far away from each other as possible when it comes to how we text because Dominique texts no,

Speaker 27 no more than three words at a time.

Speaker 28 And not very promptly.

Speaker 27 And terribly, annoyingly, in terms of responsiveness, David is immediately waiting to text something at all times, it seems. But the reason I love the group chat is for that reason.

Speaker 27 And that reason, I think, bleeds into the shows we do. We're all very different, but your points of view are incredibly valuable.

Speaker 27 So I just need to recap for the audience that missed Tuesday's episode, which is, I think, just one of the most important and most interesting episodes, frankly, we've done in the young history of Pablo Torrey Finds Out, because it is about a collusion grievance brought by the NFL PA against the NFL that resulted resulted in a 61-page document that neither side, it turns out, the league or the union, wanted anyone else to see.

Speaker 27 Unfortunately, I'm pathologically obsessed with finding out the thing. You don't want me to find out.
And so I got the document, had Mike Florio on as the guest. We dissected it.

Speaker 27 We did a whole examination, a reveal about why it is. that neither side wanted anyone to see it and also what they were trying to hide.
And in this, we got private emails, messages, texts,

Speaker 27 presentations, slides, secret meetings, all of that stuff.

Speaker 27 And hanging in the balance, for those who are just maybe bored by the legalese of this, just happens to be the most popular sport in America, as well as some of the most famous and important people in sports generally.

Speaker 27 And also the way that America

Speaker 27 basically is currently thinking about labor and management in general. So I am very glad that you two specifically, David D.
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Speaker 8 The ETF structure itself allows for the costs to really be materially lower. And so on average, an ETF is going to be a lot less expensive from an expense ratio perspective.

Speaker 8 It comes back to kind of the core principles of our firm, which is curiosity around what can we do to find an edge or where can we innovate.

Speaker 9 Listen in to discover how T-Row Price's active ETFs can help you add an edge to outperform the index.

Speaker 12 Learn more at t-roprice.com/slash explore ETFs.

Speaker 14 Hannah Berner, are those the cozy Tommy John pajamas you're buying?

Speaker 28 When I listened to the show earlier this week, what I recall thinking to myself is they're not exactly diving deep enough into the existence of pseudo-collusion within all leagues during all owners' meetings, and the fact that the union is culpable in many regards and that they don't allow their players, for the most part, to sign bad deals because it sets a bad precedent.

Speaker 28 And so they get involved at the upper level with deals, just like Major League Baseball does. That was one that I want to address.

Speaker 27 Well, in that one is like a dozen things that I want to object to, but just to clarify. I object.

Speaker 27 Well, to clarify, David Sampson, former president of the Marlins, who worked hand in hand with the owner of the team, Dominique Foxworth, of course, former president of the NFLPA, who was a candidate for the executive director job that went to one of the characters in the story.

Speaker 27 Lloyd Howell, who is the current ED of the union. That's the backdrop.
What you have just laid out, though, is one big

Speaker 27 thing.

Speaker 27 You want to give another big thing before we respond to that?

Speaker 28 Well, part of my concern with today's show is I don't know where Dominique will enter into the fray of things.

Speaker 28 So I was going to give a panoply of things to give him optionality in case he doesn't want to just be an audience member.

Speaker 27 Panoply it then, man. Panoply away.
Like, I

Speaker 27 I think, so Pablo pointed out that I was a candidate for the job.

Speaker 27 And not only that, like, this is the only, I worked at the basketball union.

Speaker 27 Also, like sports unions is kind of the only thing professionally that I've ever really actually like genuinely cared about outside of my own professional football career.

Speaker 27 And it means a lot to me to not undercut. the union at at any point.

Speaker 27 When I left office, I was very quiet about any disagreements or any things any issues that were going on because i didn't find it to be a proper thing to do and i i just didn't want and pablo's report had things in there that were

Speaker 27 very uh challenging to the current administration of the union and when i was a president it's very difficult to deal with those outside challenges so i at no point wanted to put myself particularly because i was a candidate job in a position where it was viewed that anybody because you know solidarity is all the union has, really, as far as strength is concerned.

Speaker 27 And so like, it's infuriating to me that anyone who had been a part of the union to like publicly take shots at the union.

Speaker 27 So that was my issue with being involved in that episode is I didn't want to be put in a position where I

Speaker 27 felt like I was defending something I didn't understand or I'm weakening the union. But this is why I love the three of us in the room.
It's the journalist. It's the former union president.

Speaker 27 It's the former team president. And David has a panoply.

Speaker 27 You have a panoply. I do.
You've called it pseudo-collusion. I'm going to let that sit.
You've said we didn't dive deep enough, despite it being 63 minutes.

Speaker 28 Yeah, it was 63.

Speaker 27 So what the f else is in your panoply?

Speaker 28 I just wanted to point out that what happens inside the league with the management council that you say was only invented for the purposes

Speaker 28 of collusion. Well, you drew an inference that why else would there be a management council?

Speaker 27 That part of doesn't the existence of this, as Mike Florio put it, feel collusive, Dominique, is a point that was raised. Like it's this shadowy entity that's job is to direct the teams.

Speaker 27 That's not their only job. Well, I would say that their job is to, Dominique, you can jump in here.

Speaker 27 Oh, no, I just, first of all, think it's interesting that of all the words that he could choose, he could choose a word like panoply, which is so, so close to monopoly. It's just,

Speaker 27 it feels like you could have said plethora. That's like saying that ass

Speaker 28 is close to glass.

Speaker 27 Ain't it?

Speaker 27 I mean, it's monopoly doesn't rhyme with much. You pick the only one that rhymes with monopoly.
Anyway, I was just making a joke. Like, I think the management council exists for a number of reasons.

Speaker 27 It's the same. It's essentially the opposite of the executive committee of.
the union. Like, I get the point of the management council.

Speaker 27 I think the point that Pablo is making about they do exist

Speaker 27 as a body to help guide the entire group. I don't think you would disagree with that.
And I think that's in itself is why Pablo would say that it does lead to the potential of collusive behavior.

Speaker 28 I just think that I thought he made it too small. They do exist.
The executive council in Major League Baseball, they exist as a representation of the 30 owners.

Speaker 28 They're the ones who, when you are doing a transaction, a media transaction or a sale, a purchase agreement, anything, it has to get passed by a vote of the executive council.

Speaker 28 Then the executive council brings it to the full ownership for a vote. And it's the owners who have to vote 23 to 7 or greater for anything to happen.

Speaker 28 But one of the things you do is listen to what the executive council said. But the union's a great example in baseball.
The executive committee of baseball's union voted no on the last CBA.

Speaker 28 And yet it passed because the player reps or the owners, the other owners on the executive council, the player reps voted for it. And so we had a CBA in baseball.

Speaker 28 So it doesn't always follow that whatever the management council does, the owners do.

Speaker 27 So the example that you use, I mean, the example that he used was of the union body diverging from the advice of the executive committee, not an example of the league as a body divergent from the management council.

Speaker 27 No, I agree.

Speaker 28 I was telling you that there are, it's meant to show, I'm trying to think of in my career, did we ever go against the executive council?

Speaker 27 That'd be a good question. That would be a good question.

Speaker 28 That'd be a good question. Were there to be a journalist here? And I and I would say that no, that when the executive council voted in favor of something,

Speaker 28 we voted actually, I got it. No, not true.
We voted against contraction when the executive council told us to vote for contraction

Speaker 27 because we were being contracted. Explain why that might be a okay.

Speaker 27 All right. All right.
So we're going to we're going to fire through these pretty quickly. That first issue in the Panoply, I believe we can close now.

Speaker 27 I don't think that David made the case that he was hoping to make. And I think through a series of very straightforward questions,

Speaker 27 we slapped that one down. What's next, Panoply, man?

Speaker 28 Well, I would say the second one is that when you are the union to not acknowledge that you also get involved in what players do in terms of signing deals, and it's the opposite yet equivalent, like two ends of a horseshoe, of what the commissioner's office does with its owners and baseball people in terms of contracts.

Speaker 27 So

Speaker 27 the context matters and trying to make the equivalent of the union and the ownership is very different. Like labor is not the same as management.

Speaker 27 So I get the point that you're making is you're not essentially, essentially, you're not defending anything that's happening. You're saying, but they do it too.

Speaker 27 And I would say, yes, they do it too, but they do it from a different position and for a different reason. So

Speaker 27 it's a different reason, Dominique.

Speaker 28 It's the same reason. We don't want other teams to set a precedent that we then could suffer from.
And that's the same with the union because I've spoken to players about it.

Speaker 28 Hey, I'd love to settle this arbitration case, but they're not letting me because as a three-plus pitcher, first-time eligible, if I settle below blank 3.6, then all of a sudden I'm screwing 10 other of my brethren.

Speaker 27 I would say that each individual case,

Speaker 27 there are situations where the management council is completely fine. And then there are situations where the things that they do, I think, are a concerning use of power and leverage.

Speaker 27 And I think that a strong union is good for the sport. And with the equal power.
in the fans and equal power in the media and equal power in the league.

Speaker 27 What makes it challenging is when the power dynamics are not equal. And that's, I think, where the context matters to me.

Speaker 27 The union having

Speaker 27 participate in some degree in the negotiations of players is a lot different

Speaker 27 because of the power dynamics than it would be for the league to gather and make certain decisions. That's all.
Well, it's also, I just note that, David, I think this is

Speaker 27 telling, but also understandable. You referred to it, the plural there actually was brethren, right? And so there is this question of, wait a minute, are you brothers or are you competitors?

Speaker 27 And is there a difference when you are the people who are paying the employees versus the employees, right? And so everything about this story is about what the market value of a player is.

Speaker 27 Is it guaranteed contracts? Is it partially guaranteed? How much money are these deals worth?

Speaker 27 And what this whole document, the 61-page document, reveals is that there is, as I say in the show, there is a remarkable solidarity among owners that the players simply do not have for lots of reasons that Dominique, as union president, of course, had to try and overcome, which involve different economic strata, which involve career length, which involve attention span, which involve, frankly, financial

Speaker 27 chess strategy. that the owners swim in all of the time.
I've written about this.

Speaker 27 I'm sure you've read it multiple times, but I would also throw into it that the career life cycle is also a big leverage point.

Speaker 27 So when as a player, you're negotiating for money is the easiest way to talk about it, but negotiating for an increase in the salary cap, that increase in the salary cap divided up amongst all the players is minute.

Speaker 27 And then you may not even be there for when it hits the salary cap. The difference is when you divide up one percentage point in revenue amongst all the owners, it's enormous.

Speaker 27 And it gets even more enormous in the fact that you understand that you will be getting that benefit into perpetuity and hand that benefit also down to your children. And

Speaker 27 also then you get to the solidarity point where

Speaker 27 32 like-minded individuals is a little easier to maintain and create some levels of solidarity.

Speaker 27 32 individuals who, many of whom have been in this group for 10, 20, 15 years and don't plan on ever leaving it.

Speaker 27 That is, I mean, it's just in this ecosystem analogy, that's a big ass lion with a lot of big ass teeth compared to a situation where there are very young guys who are not coming from billions of dollars, who recognize that their career life cycle is very short, their opportunity to gain is very short and

Speaker 27 are in different places. There are guys who make 35 million a year and then there are guys who make make a couple hundred thousand a year and may not be around very long.

Speaker 27 So all those things make the dynamics really difficult and it's not quite a lion versus a lion in these

Speaker 27 negotiations.

Speaker 28 But it never is when it's management versus union.

Speaker 28 And just go back and think about the SAG after strikes and think about the number of actors who we heard from who make 20 million per picture, but that's a very tiny percentage of the union.

Speaker 28 The majority of the union are the people who are, you know, once in a while getting roles where they're barely making any money.

Speaker 28 And the advent and the onslaught of AI could just eliminate them completely. And so you end up fighting.
Baseball union, the majority of players never reach arbitration, Dominique.

Speaker 28 You know that in terms of the career length.

Speaker 28 And so when you're arguing about free agency issues or you're arguing only to the tip of the top of the union, which makes it harder for a union leader because you've got a few people of power under Boris, but the majority of your union members are not focused on the same issues.

Speaker 28 And owners are not so different as you think. There's a lot of wrangling that has to go on by the commissioner.

Speaker 27 Okay, so you mentioned Scott Boris, who is a super agent in baseball, who is another one of these power centers in terms of organization, right? We're talking about how to organize, how to herd cats.

Speaker 27 The question of

Speaker 27 whether David Sampson was taken aback in any way, that there was a presentation at the NFL Management Council

Speaker 27 closed-door session at the league annual meetings in Palm Beach in 2022. That was like the central scene in the document in which all of this stuff is happening.

Speaker 27 Roger Goodell and Jeff Pash, his lawyer, had been coordinating via email. What messaging to put into these slides? We have seen now in the document the text, right?

Speaker 27 That's what the arbitrator ruled on: was that this was the NFL attempting to collude, attempting to coordinate with the owners, the 32 owners.

Speaker 27 Was any of that something you were like, oh, shit.

Speaker 28 No, it just brought me back to every owner's meeting I ever went to over 18 years. Every single one had that presentation.

Speaker 28 So I just, to me, it's a nothing burger because I know very well that I didn't collude because we ended up getting screwed more than we screwed in terms of what other teams did with other teams' players.

Speaker 28 Though once in a while, we'd purposefully overpay just to do a screw you like when we took Reyes from the Mets. Jose Reyes.
Loved it. Loved doing that.

Speaker 28 taking him away by offering him an extra year and extra dollars. So what we're told by the commissioner's office is, A, do whatever you want.

Speaker 28 But by the way, if you do differently than what we're saying, you're making a mistake and here's the proof. And they were right every time.

Speaker 28 But the competitive nature of the franchisees is such that while you are brethren as you are negotiating media deals or other such things, you're competing against them.

Speaker 28 And we're all very competitive. We want to win.

Speaker 27 And I think there's a bunch of things to address that. First of all, like I'm not one who believes that Roger Goodell's job is easy.
I think it's hard as hell because I cannot imagine trying to get

Speaker 27 31 or 32 billionaires to all fall in line. But I do think that it's a lot easier because I think their interests are a lot more aligned.
When there are issues that

Speaker 27 that hurt some and help others, that's when it gets really difficult, like creating those coalitions.

Speaker 27 So I think that's the first thing is I think what you acknowledge is that being a commissioner of even the most profitable sport in America is probably incredibly hard. Yes.
You know what's tougher?

Speaker 27 Leading the union.

Speaker 27 So it's

Speaker 27 a lot more difficult because there are more people and with more interests and also with

Speaker 27 less experience in this world. So

Speaker 27 that's why I imagine like when you say things to the effect of it's a nothing burger.

Speaker 27 I think I understand that it's a nothing burger to you, but anytime there is an opportunity to shift a couple chips of power in the direction of the players, it does feel like a something burger.

Speaker 27 Look, this is the quote from the arbitrator just to set the scene here, right?

Speaker 27 Quote, there is little question that the NFL Management Council, with the blessing of the commissioner, encouraged the 32 NFL clubs to reduce guarantees in veterans' contracts at the March 2022 annual owners meeting, end quote.

Speaker 27 That was the standard of collusion that the arbitrator found that qualified, that was met. He did not find for the record proof to his satisfaction that the 32 NFL clubs acted

Speaker 27 on that advice directly. As in, no one else.
We're idiots.

Speaker 28 Well, we should act on the advice because it's right.

Speaker 27 But de facto, by the way, I should clarify, like Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Russell Wilson are the three examples of the case studies, the star quarterbacks that were up.

Speaker 27 that offseason and were up for full guarantees because of Deshaun Watson's insane contract with the Browns, admittedly insane. And they didn't get them.

Speaker 27 And we have text messages and exchanges and emails in which you have not just a friendly relationship, but something like a brotherhood in which they're celebrating the deals, not just because

Speaker 27 characterizing the contract as insane, I think, is not fair, unique, but characterizing it as insane when you look across other sports and look at the value of a player given his background.

Speaker 27 I think the result of the contract makes it look particularly silly, but like I think the idea of it is in itself is not.

Speaker 28 That's not right.

Speaker 28 When it was signed, the day it was signed is the day, if you go back to nothing personal of that day, where we said, wow, it wasn't the fact that it was fully guaranteed that struck me.

Speaker 28 It's never about that. It's what's the amount guaranteed at signing.
And whether it's full or not, just look at that amount in the NFL.

Speaker 28 And what was guaranteed to Deshaun Watson, the guy who was, to me, never should take another snap, was $230 million. I didn't say one word about Josh Allen.
I didn't say one word about Lamar Jackson.

Speaker 27 I get what Dominique's point is. I don't want to get lost in what is probably in some ways the bigger story when it comes to just like

Speaker 27 a guy who was embroiled in dozens of sexual misconduct lawsuits got the biggest guaranteed contract in the history of the sport.

Speaker 27 I get what Dominique is saying in terms of the larger context of sports.

Speaker 27 The thing I'm referring to really as what is most eye-opening is that David is in no ways moved at all by the idea that there is this degree of clarity around

Speaker 27 this brotherhood and this cooperation.

Speaker 28 Or the fact that there were a hundred times in my career when I would say to another team president, hey, we got that one done well, huh?

Speaker 28 Or, man, I cannot believe that you signed that player to that amount. You're killing me, Smalls.
like saying those things. That's not collusion.
That's just saying we all act on our own.

Speaker 28 We all do things in our own self-interest, but then we pretend that we're part of a team.

Speaker 28 And the instances where owners and presidents do not act as part of a team are way more common than when, hey, let's not give this third baseman anything.

Speaker 27 But you said that in these presentations that you attended, right, the equivalent of the NFL MC for baseball, that there was always some some guidance, some directive from the commissioner's office.

Speaker 28 So that's the difference. When you put out slides that show that every long-term contract for a pitcher doesn't work out, you are hoping the 30 men sitting there get the inference.

Speaker 28 You're hoping that they look at that and say, oh, my GM told me that that agent wants eight years, 200 million. Well, that doesn't make sense because all deals over four years end up being bad.

Speaker 28 They don't say to you, you can't sign a guy for eight years. And that's not what the management council will say.

Speaker 27 They always say, Dominique, every team makes their own decision.

Speaker 27 Doesn't that feel like, I mean, practically speaking, this is not legally speaking, practically speaking, that feels like the disclaimer, but the effect, the intent seems quite obvious to me.

Speaker 27 I don't think any of us disagree with what's going on. I think the

Speaker 27 I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not looking to

Speaker 27 get into some debate on what constitutes actual collusion. Like that's the point of having an arbitrator.
That's the point of going through these processes.

Speaker 27 And that frankly is the point of a union to challenge these things to ensure. Like it's, I think we find ourselves.

Speaker 27 If you've ever like had

Speaker 27 spent a lot of time around people from other countries that don't. not necessarily Western countries, you'll find that not everybody has as much faith in institutions as we do.
And I know that we we

Speaker 27 now generally would argue that as an American society, we have less faith in institutions than we used to.

Speaker 27 Yeah, talk to somebody from some South American countries about what they believe about their institutions. And I say all that to say that I think

Speaker 27 we generally trust these big bodies. And I think David's a perfect person to have here to remind us that these people are human.

Speaker 27 Like it's while we think of the leagues as these big entities and these great big institutions that we should trust, like, no, it's made up of people who are smart and people who are sometimes dumb and people who are selfish and sometimes magnanimous, like they're people and they need to be held responsible and they need to be checked and balanced just like any other person.

Speaker 27 And so like that is fundamentally why like I genuinely believe in unions. And there are examples on the other side where unions have become overpowered and they distort industries.

Speaker 27 But that ain't it in pro sports. That's just not the way it works in pro sports.

Speaker 6 So as a peer investment tool, as an ETF versus, let's just say a mutual fund, what are the advantages and disadvantages between those two?

Speaker 8 The ETF structure itself allows for the costs to really be materially lower. And so, on average, an ETF is going to be a lot less expensive from an expense ratio perspective.

Speaker 8 It comes back to kind of the core principles of our firm, which is curiosity around what we can do to find an edge or where can we innovate.

Speaker 9 Listen in to discover how t-rose active ETFs can help you add an edge to outperform the index.

Speaker 12 Learn more at t-roprice.com slash explore ETFs.

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Speaker 27 The court of public opinion is where I think me as the journalist should enter here, because as much as you guys are both kind of numb to the idea that human behavior is human behavior, let's dose ourselves with the appropriate amount of cynicism, right?

Speaker 27 The idea that there is this level of communication, coordination, cooperation. What I'm saying is that I don't think normal fans realize

Speaker 27 how much

Speaker 27 this stuff is so explicitly discussed. Right.
And so when I think of what does it mean, why is it an uphill battle for employees versus management? It's because

Speaker 27 the prices of things, the market value of things, the contracts of things are in fact being shaped and reshaped quietly in ways that truly Dominique, only David Sampson is saying this,

Speaker 27 having done it in public. Like, I just want to to be clear about this.
What you're getting here is a transparency from Dominique and from David and from me.

Speaker 27 But typically, the ownership class, the executive class, they're not admitting to anything David is saying right now at all. Right, Dominique? Like, that's the court of public opinion is tilted

Speaker 27 because people don't realize that owners actually do this stuff because they never, other than David, admit to it.

Speaker 28 But what I'm admitting to, to me, is not in any way wrong.

Speaker 28 And I would tell you that without impugning anyone on any side, this happens in any business, in any industry, where there is an agreement and we operate within the four corners of the agreement.

Speaker 28 There are grievances that are filed every year by the union because what the union is doing is fighting for its interpretation of the four corners.

Speaker 28 And what management is doing is fighting for its interpretation of the four corners because you can't legislate every issue that comes up during the course of a relationship with the union.

Speaker 28 And these grievances are purposeful. They're meant to provide guardrails to behavior that both sides do.
And it's not just sports, it's every industry where this happens.

Speaker 28 So, what I'm talking about that people don't like talking about is, of course, we are doing things to try to maximize every piece of leverage, to save every dollar, and to get our employees as little money as possible so we can be more profitable.

Speaker 28 Oh, I'm sorry, I just described every management of every business in any industry.

Speaker 27 Yeah, but not every management of every business in every industry like exists in a way that professional sports leagues do. And that like,

Speaker 27 I guess you could argue against a league being a monopoly because they're in competition with other leagues and other entertainment entities, but you can't argue against it being a monopsony in which the players have no other outlet to go to use their skills.

Speaker 27 So when you're saying that in every other industry, it does not. Like there aren't other industries with salary caps, max salaries.

Speaker 28 You agree to it.

Speaker 27 See, and that gets back to the asymmetry conversation that we're talking about. So look, like David, you told us in a recent episode that

Speaker 27 your parents didn't let you watch TV when you were a kid. It's like, yeah, you agreed to it.

Speaker 27 It's like there's a different level of power and in the structure and you agree to things because of the situation that you're in.

Speaker 27 And I imagine that given today's perspective, you would think that all the limits on movement of players and constraints on salaries that existed in the leagues in the NFL pre-93, you would now agree that that is unfair and terrible, right?

Speaker 28 I would agree that the union did a great job at one point or another in each of these sports through very powerfully and emotional players like Kurt Flood to make a difference for players going forward that all unions try to accomplish.

Speaker 28 But Dominique, I'm not going to agree with you that you have no outlet for your skill.

Speaker 28 The reason why the court of public opinion is so hard on players and owners is because we're all in stratospheres that no one can relate to. The minimum salary.

Speaker 27 But we all aren't is the thing. The players all are not in stratospheres that

Speaker 27 people can't relate to.

Speaker 27 What's the minimum salary in football let's let's stick let's stick to the original point that you tried to get away from i think that pablo made a point that the reason why us you and i talking is interesting is because we both will be honest and like rather than you directly answer the question i asked you did a lawyer maneuver and got around it and changed the subject to something else so like i i think that

Speaker 27 what i said

Speaker 27 we don't we don't need we don't need to answer the question i don't frankly, it's not important what your answer is.

Speaker 27 I think that one of the reasons why this is an area where I find a great deal of passion is because I know these guys and like I know, and I was one of these guys.

Speaker 27 I know the amount of work and sacrifice and effort and risk, frankly. Like

Speaker 27 the things that decisions that I made, it limited the career paths for me

Speaker 27 to

Speaker 27 kind of one area. And if it didn't work out, it didn't work out.

Speaker 27 And I I also know the people for whom it didn't work out and people who only played for three years in the league and made hundreds of thousands of dollars in those three years, but then are not in a position going forward to have the type of life that you would expect a professional athlete to have.

Speaker 27 And so like the union exists not only to make sure that you are not suppressing what you are, but not fully suppressing the salaries of the very top. and most talented players.

Speaker 27 It exists in order to protect the guys at the bottom too, with minimum salaries and with some sort of transition and with the hope that they can get to the point where all this stuff was worth it.

Speaker 28 Why should you have the right, Dominique, to have to do a job for three years and be set for life?

Speaker 28 And I'm not saying that you agree with that because I know you don't, but the majority of baseball players, they're baseball players for a while and then they go on to be doctors or dentists or they work in construction or they become coaches.

Speaker 28 It is a moment in time where you try to make as much money as you can. And then if you can live the rest of your life, that is the, I assume football is the same as baseball.

Speaker 28 Not even the top 1% of baseball players get to live the rest of their life based on career earnings.

Speaker 27 Right. At no point did I argue that you should be able to.

Speaker 27 But you said what gives you the right. It's not about right.

Speaker 27 It's about what I would assume the only time that you don't believe in a free and open market is when it's talking, when it speaks to paying for the talents of individuals.

Speaker 27 So like that, it's not about the right. It's about how valuable that you are without the artificial constraints of

Speaker 27 rookie salaries without the artificial constraints of salary caps without any of the artificial constraints. Like that's,

Speaker 27 and it's not only about the money and football, particularly health cameras, like all these things are cost money, which is why we always end up back at money and about career transition.

Speaker 27 All this stuff costs money, which we always end up back at buddy. However, like

Speaker 27 on the other side of that,

Speaker 27 when you say what gives you the right to ask for these things, on the other side of that, what gives you the right to deny them? No,

Speaker 27 I don't

Speaker 27 get another million.

Speaker 28 Not ask. Right.

Speaker 27 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 27 Okay.

Speaker 27 That's fine. At no point did I say I expected it, but

Speaker 27 I guess it just turning it back around on you is. or on the ownership class is the part where it gets confusing is like

Speaker 27 what gives you the right to expect that you should not provide these things.

Speaker 27 And saying that you agreed to it, you know, it's like if you and I were to get into a fight and I say, do you want to stop the fight now? At some point, you would agree to it.

Speaker 27 You would much rather win the fight. But like if we're fighting over Pablo, at some point you'll be like, hey, you can have 30% of Pablo.
I want 80%.

Speaker 27 At some point, if you and I are in a fist fight, I'll take whatever percentage of the people who are in the business. Who's getting the calves? Who's getting the most valuable part of me?

Speaker 27 Yeah, Pablo is a bad example. example i don't i don't want

Speaker 27 how would we ever fight over a percentage of pablo here's the deal domini jawline i'll take zero my calves yeah but i mean you get the point that i'm making is that is that by saying you agreed to it is like yeah that it does give you the trapdoor but you understand that

Speaker 27 but there's there's laws about that is not fair i get what you're saying but there's laws about that but everything you're talking about is is is functional there's the hold on pablo

Speaker 28 If you cannot, if you're not going to be able to do it. There are laws about something under duress, that agreement is invalid.

Speaker 27 Okay. There are laws about that.
But we're talking, though, we're talking because the laws exist in a place where, again,

Speaker 27 who does not have a lot of influence and power when it comes to the courts where these decisions are made in places where these laws are developed, you know,

Speaker 27 22 to 32-year-old guys who just got out of college and been playing football. Like, there are laws for that.
And, like, no one would argue that it's completely under duress, but, like,

Speaker 27 but this is, but Dominique said, you got me on here. You got me worked up.
Tell down. You got David down here.
Towel down. Towel down.

Speaker 27 Dominique said the word, though. You won, Pablo.
You won.

Speaker 27 The word, the word here,

Speaker 27 the key word here that Dominique just said is power, right? Everything you're talking about, you agreed to this, is a function of the push and pull, right?

Speaker 27 That takes place behind closed doors, but also relevantly for the union

Speaker 27 and perhaps irrelevantly, given the suppression of this document, in public, right? So the whole question of like, there's a fascinating subplot here, Dominique, when it comes to like,

Speaker 27 what are the nuclear buttons available to both sides, right?

Speaker 27 And it seems to be the case that if the nuclear button is, we're not going to play the games,

Speaker 27 one side is far better equipped to survive nuclear winter than the other.

Speaker 27 And so, everything being about you agreed to this, if that's the looming threat, it just feels like we should dive into, okay, wait a minute, how then do we actually shift the balance of power if that's always going to be the bottom line question, which is Dominique said before, is going to be money, right?

Speaker 27 That's what we're talking about.

Speaker 28 Every relationship between management and union in every industry.

Speaker 28 Yes, there's always balance of power issues. And Dominique will acknowledge this.

Speaker 27 The power asymmetry is a little more dramatic in sports because of how short the careers are. So, like, if you're saying every union everywhere, it's a little different.

Speaker 27 Like, it would make sense for a UPS union, like they could reasonably go on strike for an extended period of time because their careers could be longer.

Speaker 27 The fact that the football players' careers are a lot shorter and the ownership's careers are not as short, like that makes the pain of one missed season, if you're only going to have three seasons, that pain is

Speaker 27 a lot more pronounced. And so like that makes the power asymmetry, I think in my view, a little bit more dramatic.

Speaker 28 But I call this the menudo effect, which is that any time you're doing something that is for people to benefit for a short period of time.

Speaker 28 And by definition, time will opt them out of whatever benefits are being negotiated.

Speaker 28 Child actors, as an example.

Speaker 27 Talking about the Puerto Rican boy band.

Speaker 28 You've heard of Menudo.

Speaker 27 Is that something that I just couldn't tell if you were like badly translating a Spanish word?

Speaker 28 No, I'm talking about the fact that there's boy bands and you negotiate deals and all of a sudden they grow out of the band. You have to replace them with other boys because they're too old.

Speaker 28 And that happens with child actors.

Speaker 28 It happens with all sorts of industries, not just sports, where there is a period of time in your life where you can do that which you do and then you've got to go do something else.

Speaker 28 It's not unique to sports, Dominique.

Speaker 27 I don't agree. I know, but but the boy band, there isn't a cap.
There's not a cap on the boy band. You can go to other record labels, you can negotiate like these things don't like.

Speaker 27 I love a good analogy, but your analogies aren't like we could just talk about it.

Speaker 27 I would Dominique, I would actually say that if David's go-to analogy is boy bands, which are famously rife with abuse, yeah, you might want to lean into that one, actually.

Speaker 28 I spent every day of my career trying to take as much from players as I could and give as little as possible.

Speaker 28 That was my job.

Speaker 27 Dominic Remember, that scene in the big short?

Speaker 27 I don't get it. Why are they confessing? And the guy goes, they're not confessing.

Speaker 27 They're bragging.

Speaker 27 He's not confessing. He's bragging.

Speaker 27 It's like the greatest compliment I pay David Sampson.

Speaker 28 When you're the president of a team, you are going at it with players, whether they're making 10 million or when you're arguing over the minimum.

Speaker 28 I had arguments with players over what raises they'd get, over how much they'd get for appearances, all the things that you'd think would make you crazy as a player.

Speaker 28 But of course, my job was to pay the least amount of money to get people to do the most amount of work. And it wasn't just players.

Speaker 28 We did it with people in marketing, sales, and finance, and every, every part of the company.

Speaker 27 All right. I mean,

Speaker 27 I feel like you made all the points that I want to make. It's like listening to you talk about it.
It makes the points.

Speaker 27 And like, I have no interest in making players or unions look like weak or feeble institutions, but

Speaker 27 it's not a coincidence that so many of the leaps in

Speaker 27 labor rights come through the courts and professional football specifically and in professional sports because of the asymmetry of power.

Speaker 27 But I just wanted to have this conversation out in the open and I think it's pretty clear what you represent and clear what I represent.

Speaker 28 I think it's a big story that the union did not disclose.

Speaker 27 Well, but

Speaker 27 let me get to this because I think a big key part of this, right? Because

Speaker 27 as much as David is embodying a rare honesty in terms of like, this is what it's like. This is what we're trying to do.
We're trying to squeeze every dollar.

Speaker 27 The point I have to make here is that the reason why this document, the reason why this document was not published is because, as much as David is in a position now to be very open,

Speaker 27 there is clearly an incentive for the owners to not have people know that this is what it's like back there.

Speaker 28 But the union didn't leak it either.

Speaker 27 And this brings me to the other part, which is that when it comes to the nuclear button and what you do short of pressing the nuclear button,

Speaker 27 which of course course we, we know the union does not want to do for the economic vast gap between owners and players, right? It's obvious now.

Speaker 27 You have the ability to persuade the public

Speaker 27 that this is something that you might care about, that this is actually an imbalance that seems unfair. I've heard from people who are saying, if you had a properly functioning union,

Speaker 27 You would make a political stink about this. The union is based in Washington, D.C.
You would lobby Congress to investigate. You would call for Roger Goodell to be investigated and maybe even removed.

Speaker 27 You would take all of the information in here and you would tell a story that reflects something resembling an accessible and relatable gulf in what it's like to be an employee in the United States versus an owner and a manager.

Speaker 27 And the fact that this union did not allow this to get out there for reasons that we chronicle in the episode,

Speaker 27 Dominique.

Speaker 27 Seems seems like a lot, man. It just seems like a lot.

Speaker 27 It's exactly what I am not going to do. So, like, you had, you had an episode not too long ago with Lena Kahn, FTC, or former FTC.
Who is, by the way, who is also,

Speaker 27 she's watching this episode, I am told. I look forward to her review as well.
Yeah. FTC chat.
Yeah.

Speaker 27 Yeah. Yeah.
Former, right? Former, yes, yes, yes. Yeah.
So, um,

Speaker 27 I just, I listened to that episode of hers, and she's been doing a couple other media things recently that I listened to. And

Speaker 27 she speaks about an arm of this or another entity in this ecosystem that, in her view, was dormant until recently. And I think that it's a good example of what it means when

Speaker 27 you have

Speaker 27 a particular portion of this ecosystem getting a tremendous amount of power without it being checked.

Speaker 27 And I think the reason why I thought it was important to say that these institutions are made up of people is because it makes it easier for us to understand why they need to be checked.

Speaker 27 And it makes it clearer to us to understand why places like the FTC need to be active and why unions need to be equally as strong.

Speaker 27 Because I in no way, and again, with David Sampson being the perfect avatar for this I in no way would want to live in a world or work in an industry with an unchecked David Sampson or anyone like that but you weren't we were checked just FYI that grievance is exactly the check agreed I'm saying my point is the union does exist for that purpose and the union is doing that that's all my point is I'm saying that it and the union also exists in order to protect the league itself with the antitrust exemption that exists because the union um uh is around and like that benefits both sides i guess my my only point about this is it doesn't have to be overnight it can be gradual the the power shift can be gradual and the the um

Speaker 27 the erosion can be gradual till you get to a point to where you're back in the the pre-93 days. And so like, I certainly don't want to be hyperbolic.

Speaker 27 And this is why I was more than willing to come on here. Like, I'm happy.
I love union stuff. I I love having these conversations.
Most of the time, people don't care.

Speaker 27 So, I'm happy to have this conversation now about the bigger, broader conversation, not the specific stuff about what's going on right now, but the bigger, broader conversation.

Speaker 27 If people care to hear about it now, I'm all in on it. And I know that most people look at athletes and think they're a bunch of spoiled millionaires that play a game for a living.

Speaker 27 Like, I recognize that. I think it's important to understand the full context of it.
And I'm sure I have blind spots in the same way that David, you have blind spots in this. But

Speaker 27 I think in this environment and what the future pretends in this environment, it's not good for anyone if there isn't a strong and functioning union on the opposite side of

Speaker 27 any of the professional leagues.

Speaker 28 I think that these types of conversations are the exact type of conversations that I wish our country had more.

Speaker 28 Instead of being entrenched in a position of being unwilling to listen and only yelling into an echo chamber where no progress can be made, I found out that from Dominique's perspective, it is very emotional to him, given his past, and that he has a hard time, which I totally understand, trying to make heads or tails of the action of people who he knows, who may have done things that he disagrees with, but has such loyalty that he will not turn.

Speaker 28 And I find that to be admirable.

Speaker 27 I learned that Pablo is a lot like Roger Goodell. Oh, wow.
Whoa.

Speaker 27 Wow. No, that's not an insult.
It's a compliment. I think that you do a very hard job.
And I also think that

Speaker 27 you have a priority stack.

Speaker 27 And in the same way that I believe that Roger Goodell genuinely cares about players, I believe that when that is in conflict with something else, he puts something else like the owners or whatever interest the owners have, he bumps it down.

Speaker 27 And I think that Pablo

Speaker 27 is the same way and that

Speaker 27 he does care about me. But in that priority stack, give him good hugs.
I give good hugs.

Speaker 27 I am below

Speaker 27 his show and his own personal gain. That's all.

Speaker 28 I thought I played the game wrong. I thought we were supposed to tell you something we found out today.

Speaker 28 And there's no way that Dominique found out today that you prioritize your show over your friendship.

Speaker 27 So I can't.

Speaker 27 Good, good priority stack, stack, guys. Love you both.

Speaker 27 Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Aberoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daywig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McRae, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, Chris Tumanello, our studio engineering by RG Systems, our sound design by NGW Post, our theme song, as always, is by John Bravo, and we will talk to you next time.

Speaker 14 Hannah Berner, are those the cozy Tommy John pajamas you're buying?

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