Donald Miller on the Secret to Making People Care About You

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Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles.
And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself.
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Why do some brands forge deep, lasting connections with their audiences while others fade into the background? What if there was a proven formula, not just for clearer messaging, but for transforming the way you communicate, lead, and inspire? Today, we're diving into the art and science of storytelling, how you can position yourself, your brand, or your business as the guide your audience needs most. We'll explore a timeless framework that has helped over a million leaders create messaging that cuts through the noise and builds trust that lasts.
But before we dive in, let's take a moment to highlight an incredible episode from earlier this week with Wes Adams and Tamara Miles, where we explored their new book, Meaningful Work. It's a powerful conversation about finding fulfillment, aligning work with purpose, and creating impact that lasts.
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And do you want even more intentional inspiration? Subscribe to my live intentionally newsletter at passionstruck.com for weekly tools, challenges, and insights to help you create a purpose-filled, impactful life. Now onto today's guests.
I'm thrilled to welcome Donald Miller to the show. Donald is the CEO of StoryBrand and Business Made Simple, a nine-time best-selling author and one of the most influential voices in branding, leadership, and business growth.
His StoryBrand framework has been used by world-class organizations, from Tom's Sho truck bicycles to clarify messaging and drive exponential results. In this episode, we discuss the seven elements of great storytelling that clarify your message and inspire action.
We go into why positioning yourself as the guide, not the hero, is the key to earning trust. Donald describes how the story brand framework applies

far beyond marketing into leadership, communication, and culture. And then lastly, we go into the

innovative AI tools included in building a story brand 2.0 that make expert level marketing

accessible to all. Whether you're an entrepreneur, a creative, or a leader looking to elevate your

influence, this episode is packed with actionable strategies to help you amplify your message, connect authentically, and lead with clarity. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.
Now, let that journey begin.

I am absolutely honored today to bring Donald Miller to the Passion Struck podcast. Welcome, Donald.
Great to be here with you, John. Well, today we are going to be discussing this book.
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This book, which I have actually been using for about six years, and hopefully I'm using it in the right way. But this book has sold over a million copies and you just came out with release 2.0 in the beginning of January.
Congratulations. Thank you.
It's been a fun ride and I'm grateful that it's helping so many people, especially you. And I should be talking as if we're on a podcast and not just showing a picture of it, but the book we're talking about is building a story brand 2.0 for the listeners out there.
Yeah. Talk about communicating clearly.
Yeah, I've only done 560 of these episodes. I should know better by now.
So welcome to Passion Struck. And your book has sold over a million copies.
You've helped hundreds of thousands, if not a million business owners clarify their message and better connect with their audiences. But your work, in my view, it's more than just business.
It's about connection, purpose, and meaning. Why is storytelling such a vital tool for creating clarity and alignment in life and work? The human brain spends about 30% of its time daydreaming.
It's actually a survival mechanism. When the brain can't figure out how the information it's being presented with is going to help it survive and thrive, meaning your body stay on the planet and your resources grow.
When you're encountering information and you can't figure out how this is going to help you in some way, you daydream. And it's the way that your brain says, hey, there's nothing here that we need that is useful, so we're going to go into rest mode.
And it stops paying attention. That's why you daydream so much in church, right?

Because you're having trouble figuring out how the second chapter of Numbers is going to do anything for you. And so you daydream.
Until the pastor says, it reminds me of when my cousin and I tried to jump across the Grand Canyon on a motorcycle. All of a sudden, everybody in the room is paying attention because he started into a story.
So story is the only tool known to man that can stop people from daydreaming for not just 10 minutes, 20 minutes, for hours on end. When you're watching a movie, when you're binging something on Netflix, you pay attention and your brain engages.
And so the reason it's so important to understand story, how it works, how to invite people into a story, is because if you have a passion that you want other people to know about or understand or join with you in working on, you need to invite them into a story in which doing that and taking action on that passion actually benefits them in some way. And so understanding story and story structure is really about how to understand how to communicate in such a way that people listen to you, they hear you, and they join you.
And if you don't use story to do that, you've got a very low chance of anybody engaging your ideas. So story is very important as understanding how to communicate if you want people to pay attention.
Okay, that's great. And I'm going to just show this book, The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell, because I think this is exactly what he was talking about with how storytelling through myths have transformed cultures.
It's what, as you were saying, every single religion uses to try to get their message across. Not just religion, but political movements.
Autocracies grow almost exclusively through narrative propaganda. Not often true when it's an autocracy, but horrible things have happened in the world because leaders have understood how to tell stories that scare people into doing what they want them to do, which is almost always to the benefit of the autocrats.
It's important to know how story structure works so that you can use it yourself to invite people into doing good things, and so you can understand when it's being used to benefit something that is very harmful for the world. All you have to do is look back at the Third Reich to understand how well Hitler and his leadership understood.
Well, yes, both and. Hitler was arguably the world's best, perhaps in history in terms of world leaders, at using narrative structures and propaganda to fool a lot of people.
And of course, the way that you know that this is harmful is if it's filled with lies. Like you actually test the story and discover that's not true, this is not true.
Arguably, the second best, and maybe the best because he won, was Winston Churchill, who used the same powerful narrative structures to counter. So you had one story that was being told that, from our perspective, of course, was true, defeating a story that was filled with lies.
That was a story war, the story of the Allies standing up to evil versus the story of the German people being superior beings and needing to spread that propaganda for the betterment of the world.

Of course, those are absurd ideas. But even in—a lot of people don't think of the emperor of Japan, who told the story that he was a descendant of the gods, literally.
That his family were descendants of gods, designed and brought to earth to protect and offer security and provision for the Japanese people, which is going to necessitate taking over the mainland China and the Philippines and a bunch of other islands over there. And that was the story that he was telling.
So we had to go over and deconstruct all of that. But all those bombs that were dropped and the people who were killed and the atrocities that were committed started with words.
And they were defeated with words from Harry Truman, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Winston Churchill, and so forth and so on. And then Stalin continued to use that playbook after World War II to kill millions of people in Russia.
If you understand these things, you can—and I wish more people did. I wish that more people could understand when they were being hijinxed and when they weren't.
What that does speak to is how powerful story is at brainwashing, of hijacking a human brain. It is very difficult for a human to know what is fiction and what is not fiction at the emotional level.
Pretty easy on a cognitive. We know that the Marvel comics are fiction, but while you're sitting there in the theater, you certainly feel like it's true.
Your emotions are up and this Thanos is going to destroy the world and you're on the edge of your seat. Well, why? It's pure fiction, isn't it? Well, yeah, it's fiction, but it feels true right now in this theater.
Well, there's a lot of people who cannot help but suspend disbelief when they're listening to political rhetoric that is not remotely true. And in America, you see that on both sides of the political aisle.
Democrats stirring up fear and anxiety over what Republicans are doing and Republicans stirring up fear and anxiety over what the Democrats are doing. And almost nobody working on actual practical solutions because they're using this propaganda to stay in personal power or party power.
And you understand it and you roll your eyes a lot watching the nightly news. Well, if you know the mechanisms that they're using, you definitely do roll your eyes.
So I appreciate you. Especially it's not just, I'd say the worst culprit is the media.
How many times have you read a headline and oh my gosh, is that what's going on? You click it and you realize that's a very exaggerated take on what's happening in order to get me to click and read this article, which by the way, it is this advertisement for toilet paper right next to it, which is the whole reason they created the clickbait in the first place was to sell that ad. And now you're realizing they're lying to all of us in order to sell toilet paper.
I don't want to have a cynical view of the world, but when it comes to the media or political parties, I tend to be about as cynical as I can get. I'm going to ask a little bit more about that in a couple of questions, but I wanted to talk a little bit about Dave Ramsey.
So Dave has been one of your loudest supporters and has called building a story brand, the most effective framework for cutting through the digital noise. And when I think of Dave Ramsey's brand, I think what makes him stand out in a pretty crowded market space is how on point he is on his brand, which is really providing people financial peace, if I understand it.
With distractions only increasing, why is the power of story more important today than ever before?

And maybe you can use Dave Ramsey as an example of that.

It's because it cuts through noise.

Let me explain what I mean when I talk about story and story structure.

The basic plot points of a story that have been passed down through generations and centuries

are a character that wants something, who has to

overcome conflict in order to get what he wants and avoid a tragic result. Those are the basic plot points of a story.
And so if you want to invite somebody into a story, for instance, let me just go through the mission statement of my personal family, the Miller family. There are three of us, me, my daughter, and my wife.
We live inside of a story that is based around a mission statement, and our mission statement is, in a world tempted by cynicism, we believe life can be beautiful. If there is a world tempted by cynicism, we know that there's a darkness in the world.
We have called that darkness cynicism, and we know that it is tempting. That in itself creates a story.
You have somebody who doesn't want to be sucked into the dark vacuum of cynicism. We believe instead that life can be beautiful.
Not that it is beautiful, but that it can be made beautiful by us and the actions that we take. So even in that mission statement, you have an opposition, which is necessary to tell a story.
You have a group protagonist, which is necessary to tell a story, either a protagonist or a group protagonist. Ours is a group because it's the Miller family.
There's something that the Miller family wants. They want to hold to a perspective and participate in the making of a beautiful life.
Now, that can be defined in many ways, but just our mission statement places the Miller family squarely in a story of good versus evil, darkness versus light. So now my kids grow up in an environment where they get to play a character inside of that story, and that character that they play is going to transform them.
And then we talk about the characteristics of the group protagonists, and they are helpful, grounded, attuned, and fun. Those are the four values of our family.
And so what it does with my three and a half year old daughter is when she says, Dad, I want to play. I don't want to do this work today or whatever.
It's like, you know what? Millers are fun. Let's take a break and play, and we'll finish these chores later.
When somebody comes in and they're hurting, we are the sort of people who are attuned. And so we notice that somebody's hurting, and we stop what we're doing.
We sit down and we say, hey, what are you feeling, and how are you feeling? Because we are attuned. If we get really cocky and arrogant, we are not grounded.
We think more of ourselves than we should, and the Bible says, don't think more or less of yourselves than you should. In other words, have an accurate view of yourself.
We would consider that being grounded. And so those are the four characteristics that we've identified that are necessary to participate in the making of a beautiful world.
And so even in my own life, we have framed a story, and I have invited my family and myself into a story in which we get to play a role that ultimately will transform us into better human beings and also make the world more beautiful in some small way. And so that's what I mean when I talk about narrative leadership or a narrative structure shaping the reality.
So let's say that you're a passionate leader and you're passionate about veterans and helping veterans. You want to figure out, okay, I'm passionate about helping veterans, but that's not a story.
What is opposing veterans? Well, a feeling that they matter less and less as they get older.

Okay, so we oppose the wisdom of veterans being wasted.

Now we've got a story because we have an enemy.

We have something that we are fighting.

We are fighting the diminishing returns we're getting in terms of the wisdom pool of our veterans.

Now, what do we want to do about that?

We want to elevate veterans who are getting older into sage and guide positions. Okay, now we've got something that we're for and we have something that we're against.
We're making a story. And then we go out and give a keynote somewhere at some workshop and just say, hey, I'm part of Veterans Wise Guides, an organization of veterans who mentor younger veterans.
And what we do is we connect wise veterans with younger veterans to help shepherd them through life. And here's how we do it.
Now we are inviting people who are heroes in a story who are being overlooked into being people who are championed and honored in the room. That's how you take a passion and you turn it into a story that you invite people into.
What are you for? What are you against? What are the challenges that we have to overcome in order to accomplish what we are for? What are the steps? What are the products that we need to sell in order to oppose and bring down that which we are against? That's called narrative thinking, taking a passion and turning it into a structure or a framework that people can step into. And that's what I'm passionate about, is helping people figure out how to do that for what they're passionate about.
So I'm going to have you go through another example, if you don't mind. But before I do, I just wanted to give you a book.
If you're not familiar with it, that applies right to your family's mission. It's written by Jamil Zaki and it's called.
Tired of listening to the same old playlists or podcasts over and over. Maybe it's time to mix things up.
Try something new. Hit explore.
Avoid the blah and the boring before you even put your headphones in.

Add some fun in the mix.

Say yabba-dabba-doo to a bowl of Pebble cereal and enjoy by the spoonful. Fruity and Cocoa Pebble Cereal.
Less blah, more yabba-dabba-doo. Head to your nearest grocery store to buy Pebble cereal today.
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Relief means I can show up more. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or cough.
Had a vaccine or plan to. Or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen.
Serious allergic reactions and severe eczema-like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-COSENTIX or cosentix.com.
Ask your dermatologist about Cosentix. Hope for Cynix.
Oh, I love that. Hope for Cynics.
I'm going to write that down. It is actually a very good book.
Amazon cited it as one of their top four books of 2024. Holy.
And you can go back to an episode on PassionStruck where I interviewed him if you want to take the shortcut or you can buy his book, but he's a great author. So got it.
I'll pick it up. So I wanted to take an epidemic that's really plaguing humanity right now and maybe have you do the same exercise that you just did with your family and the veterans.
And that's this epidemic of loneliness. Could you do the same thing for that, Because I think it's one of the most important issues we've got right now.
Well, I can. And I'll tell you, loneliness is not good.
And the reason that it exists is because you're not eating something you need to be eating. And that is community.
Loneliness is starvation of the soul, and so I'm entirely against it. I am somebody who is more introverted than extroverted.
I do not get lonely very easy, but long ago, more than a decade ago, I realized that I need to be around people. I need to be with people.
And I ended up, I've created now a few different communities of people that I'm with. One was just in town.
We call ourselves the Lions. We go fishing every summer.
And then every winter, every one of the Lions, about 15 to 18 of us, depending on who can show up at my place, and we watch the college national championship. So we just spent three nights together watching four NFL games and one college game, and it was a blast.
We buy a bunch of beer, we buy a bunch of meat, and we just watch football and smoke cigars and all that kind of stuff. But in the middle of that time, we stop and we do something called five things in five minutes.
And that's almost everybody in the group stands up and says, what are five things that I think this group should know in five minutes?

It went from half of it was how to be a better dad and a better husband.

The other half was stuff like how to protect your ears as you get older,

just random stuff that people know about.

Investment ideas, how to protect your heart health, because somebody had a heart incident,

so they learned.

And we're sharing wisdom and best practices with each other,

so there's some intentional time around our time together. But it struck me as we were together and literally, they just went home Monday.
They just went, or sorry, they went home Tuesday morning. So just yesterday as we record this, it struck me as to how much the intentional time and the little lectures were really great, but how fulfilled we all were and full from the encouragement that you get from just being with each other.
We tend to eat healthy. We know that we're supposed to eat healthy.
We know that we're supposed to exercise and move our bodies. We know that it's supposed to stretch or we'll lose our flexibility.
You're also supposed to spend time with people. And when you don't spend time with people, you atrophy in many ways.
And

one, let me just paint a dangerous picture of loneliness. Now, let me give you a lot of hope.

A lot of people are looking to join a community. I would encourage you to do that if you want to,

but I would encourage you even stronger to create one. Actually just create a community.

You invite six or seven people to breakfast once a month, and then you understand how it works. If you invite six or seven people to breakfast every month, probably two years later, you're going to have six or seven people having breakfast, and none of them will be in the first group.
They will be people who heard about it, came, but it takes a minute to dial in who those people are going to be. and it takes, I believe, in the rule of three.
It takes three of those meetings for people to feel comfortable, and three years of those meetings for people to actually bond. And so you have to stay at it for a long period of time.
I actually went to—that's my community, we call ourselves the Lions—I went to a friend of mine who was taking a year off as a pastor, and he was a pastor of a very large church, taking a year off before he maybe moved to another church or something like that, wanted to get a sabbatical in. And I went to him and I said, I will give you $10,000 if you create a group of men who get together once or twice a month.
I will pay $10,000 to be one of those men. And he was like, are you being serious? I go, yes.
And I think there's many other men who would do it. Three months later, he launched the Sycamore Society, which was 35 men each paying $10,000 just to get together.
And the first meeting was awkward. The second meeting was less awkward.
The third meeting was great. And we've been doing it almost a year, and he's not going to go back to pastoring, I don't think.
He's going to do this another year because it's been so fulfilling for all of us. And these are great leaders.
That's how important, I think, being in community is. Loneliness is a villain, and it needs to be opposed in some ways.
I also think there's a benefit to loneliness because it calls you into community and connects us to each other, so it's not necessarily a terrible dark thing. It is if it wins.
You don't want loneliness to win. You want to feel it and have it drive you like a warning light on your dashboard to take action.
But I would just say, look, I can join a community, but I can't think of a single community in the world that is more tailored for me than the ones I made. This is the community I want to live in.
I want to tell stupid dad jokes. I want to fish.
I want to be around a group of guys who are committed to their wives and their children, and I want to be around winners who know how to lead companies and know how to lead people. I don't know where I'm going to find that community unless I just make it.
So you want to sit there and say, well, what would be a dream community? Who would be in this community? And then you want to start inviting them into that community and keep bringing them together. It takes consistency, but that's how you do it.
I think that's a great idea. I've recently been talking to Dr.
Rick Hansen, who is really big in the compassion circle, and he started something called the Global Compassion Coalition. And as part of it, they are trying to start small groups, men, women could be mixed where they're trying to start compassion circles to try to spread the impact of compassion and kindness throughout the world.
And I think what you were just saying and what they're doing have a lot of overlaps in it's trying to pick the right people to come into that circle who you feel will uplift not only you, but will bring meaning and connection and stories to make that connection stronger. So I love what you're bringing up.
Well, that sounds like a great vision. Compassion community sounds really great.
I agree. I volunteered to start one.
So I'm going to take some of what you just said. Maybe a good way to do it is around the breakfast table.
I almost said food. It's about food.
Just make sure there's food there and you'll grab, you'll get people need to eat, but they need to eat more than food, right? They need, their souls need to eat too. So let's go back to the new release of your book for a second.
Why do you feel it was time to release an updated version and how does it reflect the changing landscape of communication? Well, there are a couple of things I didn't put in building StoryBrand 1.0 that I didn't realize until later needed to exist. One is the controlling idea.
And so

basically the controlling idea is what your story is about. And there are ways to come up with the

controlling idea. The controlling idea for the movie Rudy is Rudy wants to play for Notre Dame,

but he's too small, right? So if I were coming up with an organization controlling idea, it might be

as veterans get older, they tend to be ignored, and we think they should be elevated. That's a controlling idea.
And what the controlling idea gives you is a filter through which you're going to throw out everything that doesn't serve the controlling idea. So it gives you an in-or-out filter.
If you want to say, well, we're going to start a bowling league for the children of veterans, we would say that doesn't serve the controlling idea. So that's a great idea, but it's its own controlling idea, and you need to do that separately.
It doesn't get to go here. And that's really important if you want to lead anything as to what to say no to and what to say yes to.
So the controlling idea is now in the book. There's a lot more on the villain, what opposes the objective of the hero.
There's a lot more in that. But the main thing for Building a StoryBrand 2.0 is there's about 10,000 words, which is about 100 pages, more stories and examples than there were in Building a StoryBrand 1.0, stories from national security, from pet food companies, from all the different people that I've met with who we've been able to help.
So it's a lot easier for somebody to get their mind around building a StoryBrand 2.0 and the concepts than it was building a StoryBrand 1.0. The biggest difference, though, is the addition of AI.
So building a StoryBrand 2.0 leads you to storybrand.ai, where we've created a free way to get seven sound bites that help you invite people into a story. And also a tagline that can help you summarize what your offer is in just a few words.
Eat more chicken is the tagline for Chick-fil-A. I gave an organization the tagline, Kids Love Aquariums.
They were a pet food, fish food slash aquarium company, dominates the American market in pet stores, does about 100 million. And when they started using in a test market, the tagline, Kids Love Aquariums, they saw a 99% increase in sales.
So the words we use matter. And we have, I wrote over 100 pages of single space text with instructions for OpenAI.
We put it inside of an interface at storybrand.ai, and it will give you your controlling idea, your tagline, your brand script, little wireframe websites for you, write nurture emails, lead generators. It'll give you 16 different business building concepts.
We timed it, and what would normally take 60 hours, 60, six zero hours, in terms of creating a marketing funnel, now takes 29 minutes. And the writing is really good.
So the book leads you to storybrand.ai every step of the way. Because normally in the first book, I tell you how you need to come up with your tagline.
And in the new book, I just write it for you. And it's very powerful.
We have about 10,000 people since the book came out, which was about a week ago using storybrand.ai. So that's the biggest difference.
And by the way, right now, if you go to storybrand.ai, I will give you a tagline for your business. In fact, I just went there.
I've got a buddy who's been a struggling musician for 30 years. I live in Nashville, Tennessee.
He's a very dear friend. He's one of my fishing buddies.
Just spent the weekend with him with this group of guys. And he struggles to make money.
Every once in a while, he writes a song and he gets a sync. They're called a sync on some sort of show or commercial and he makes some money.
But he hasn't been able to develop the fan base and Spotify doesn't pay. These music streaming services don't pay him anything.
So I gave him the idea. I said, what if you start a mastermind for music lovers? Not for musicians, for music lovers, for people who love singer songwriter.
They spend a year, they get a newsletter, they get interviews with musicians that you get to interview, they get some of your music for free, they get to come to Nashville and attend one of your concerts, they get to attend a big breakfast where you interview a famous singer-songwriter. They have the best year of their life with front row seats to the singer-songwriter community and world that exists in Nashville, Tennessee.
You could charge $5,000 a person.

You could have 100 people and capped it at 100.

You're making half a million dollars a year if you do this.

So I go to storybrand.ai.

I answer about six questions, and it prints out a brand script

with all the talking points he would need to say

in order to get people to buy into the community,

wireframed a website for him, created a lead generator to capture the interests of people who would be interested in that, and gave a nurture email sequence to email them once a week and convince them to sign up for the community. All that was done, I think I did it minutes before getting on this podcast so I could email it to him.
I think I did it in about six minutes. And so you can actually take your passion and turn it into a business with all the collateral you need to sell that product inside of storybrand.ai.
It will even, if you answer a few questions, it'll even give you product ideas. You should turn that into this product and here's what you would be called and here's what you should charge for it.
So all of that now exists at storybrand.ai. Man, I love it.
It's going to be exactly what I do after I get this interview is check that out, because I can't tell you how many hours I spent thinking about those things. And I have to tell you a really cool story.
You talk about your breakfast meeting. I'm part of a men's group where we get together one Tuesday every month for dinner.
And one of my best friends was on the Notre Dame national championship team from 88. And I watched this last game with him.
Unfortunately, it didn't go the way he wanted it. But interestingly enough, he has now gotten that entire team that he played with to come to where we live in Tampa Bay every year.
And they come back and they all say it's one of their favorite events of the year. He started with six of them and he brought me in because the Navy has a close relationship to Notre Dame.
And now he has 40 of his teammates who come in now every single year. That gets me choked up, the need and the desire for community, because those guys are getting a need met that can't be met anywhere else.
There's a need for family. Our family meets that.
There's a need for God. God meets that.
There's a need for food. Food meets that.
Where's the need for community and for especially for old connections, for connections that you've had for a long time? Because friendships are one of the things that just get better and better over time. Very cool story to hear him.
And also an example of somebody being very intentional about creating community. He's the best.
He's one of those guys that I think he spends probably two hours on the phone just reaching out to teammates and friends just to,

even if it's my typical conversation with them is I talk to them three or four times a week, and most of the time it's under three minutes, but it's typically sharing a laugh or an update, but there are very few people in my life that I have that type of bond with, so I really treasure it. Now, I wanted to ask, given that you're from Nashville, do you know Rory and AJ Vaden? I do.
Yeah. In fact, they're pretty much neighbors.
They live about a mile from me. I know them both.
And Rory gave me some guidance for this podcast. And people often ask me, how did this thing hockey stick into 60 million downloads? It was because I applied a principle that you talked about earlier.
I got very clear on what my purpose was, and I excluded everything that was out of that bullseye and focused on doubling down on helping the audience with what I thought was the main purpose of this podcast. And it's living proof that what you're saying works, and it works in magnifying ways.
If you can define in order, and Rory's right, Rory's a genius, and I love him. He's also, by the way, just a good human being.
But if you can define first, and this is going to sound kind of cynical, and I don't mean it to, I just mean it as a thought exercise. If you want to know what your life is about and what you want your life to be about, ask yourself what you're against.
What bothers you? What do you wish didn't exist? And you may come up with bullies. I can't stand bullies.
Okay, well, what's the opposite of a bully? Probably somebody who's generous. And so that's how you actually discover your values.
And then you would want to create a podcast or a brand around generosity or whatever. Generosity is not necessarily the opposite of being a bully, but maybe stinginess or hoarding is something you can't stand.
And it's like, OK, if you can't stand that, it's probably because you uphold the value of generosity. And so create a podcast around generosity and a community around generosity.
By the way, those things, generous giving and those organizations exist that are all about creating community around the concept of generosity. But then I think too many people try to create something that is really broad, and when they create something that is really broad and hits the most number of people, what they find is they're actually not communicating to anybody because it's just not specific enough.
If I said to you, I have a great podcast for human beings, do you have any idea what that podcast is about? You really don't. if I said I have a podcast for human beings.
Do you have any idea what that podcast is about? You really don't. But if I said,

I have a podcast for human beings who collect Matchbox cars. Okay, I actually might listen.

I don't collect Matchbox cars, but I'm fascinated by you guys who do this. And then, by the way,

anybody who collects Matchbox cars is going to listen to this podcast. And you're going to end

up having millions of listeners because you got so micro-niched down. And the concept there is if somebody can't get their head around your offer, as soon as you say it, you're not going to have very many people taking you up on that offer.
We have a mantra around my office, it's if you confuse, you lose. And you just can't confuse anybody.
And kudos to you for being specific. The podcast is really about how people can live more intentionally.
And I believe that our lives are defined by the micro decisions or choices we make. And the more intentional you are about making them aligned with your values, the more it helps you focus on what truly matters in your life.
That's true. And so that's what I double down on and try to bring experts and other people like yourself to amplify that vision.
I'm curious, just based on what we've already said, what bothers you? What's the opposite of that? Because somebody asked me, what's your pet peeve? And I said, honestly, I have a few, but one of my pet peeves is a person who doesn't have a vision. Because I feel like if you don't have a vision for your life, God has given you a gift that to you is not impressive.
You're not going to do anything with it. But when you actually say, okay, here's my vision for my life, here's what I want to do, you are participating in this great drama that is being rolled out in front of us.
Who are we to say, I don't really have an ambition or want to do anything, when there children starving. And it's not a very noble thing just to opt out of life when there's so much work to be done and so much beauty to be created and so much cynicism to oppose.
Let's not think of it as a noble thing that you're just opting out. And I feel like you and I are akin in that way, that you're saying, no, intention, look at you.
Look at every human being. You're not here for no reason.
You're too amazing, right? You're the pinnacle of God's creation, and you're sitting on the couch. Come on.
Let's be more intentional about how we spend our time here. So to answer your question, I'll tell you a story, and then I'll tell you what to me is the opposing view.
I interviewed this guy, Andreas Widmer, who runs the business school at the Catholic University in DC. And I don't know if Andreas, but when he was a huge guy, he's six foot nine.
And when he was younger, he had no idea in life what he wanted to do. And his parents gave him this idea because he grew up in Switzerland.
Why don't you become a Swiss guard? So against all the odds, he gets selected. And when he's 19 years old, he's guarding Pope John Paul II.
And he tells me this story that the Pope was very intuitive and he could sense that Andreas was really struggling with where he should take his life. And he said the Pope sits him down.
And when he does and when you're in his audience, it's like the rest of the world melts away and he's just one on one. How cool is that? How beautiful is that? And he starts telling him about his story and how he himself struggled.
And then he said part of why he became a priest was that he came to the conclusion that God gives us each very unique gifts. And it's up to us in life to cultivate them in the service of others.
And he said to Andreas, this is your life's mission. You have to do the inner work to understand what it is that, or what the gifts are that God has given you, and to use them in service to make other people better.
And so you, going back to Rory Vaden, Rory has this saying that we're best positioned to serve the person that we once were. And I would say- That's great.
That's very true. I would say that I got to a period when I was in some of my most senior roles where I felt the most numb and empty.
And as Henry David Thoreau says, quiet desperation pervading me. And I felt completely apathetic.
And to me, being indifferent to your life is the opposite than being intentional about where you're trying to lead it. So to me, if I despise anyone, it's that person I once was.
And I try to help people never reach that point.

That's beautifully well said. And you and I are on a similar mission then, I think.
Yes, it seems so. As I was listening to your podcast, and obviously I've read the book and tried to put it into practice myself.
I want to go here to a little bit more about StoryBrand 2. But I want to really look at the framework because it's built around transformation.
But I wanted to take it from the standpoint that you took it into

your personal life, because that's something that I help people do here. How can they use your book,

not in a business setting, but to create clarity and purpose about their personal life? Similar to you did with your family. Yeah.
You know, what's interesting, there's a tool at storybrand.ai and building storybrand 2.0 talks about it called a brand script. Think of a brand script as the plot points of a narrative.
So if we were creating a brand script for Star Wars Rebel Assault, it'd be this young kid, Luke Skywalker, wants to oppose the totalitarian empire as a fighter pilot and runs up against his own internal struggle and question of whether or not he's a Jedi, plus the actual opposition of the enemy trying to shoot him down. Those would be the plot points, if you will, that make up the story.
And if you create one as a brand, you've got the plot points of the brand, but a lot of people don't realize they have plot points in their lives. And I have several stories going at the same time.
I have the story of the child of God, which I am, the story of a business owner, which I am,

the story of a husband, and the story of a father. Those would be the four big narrative structures in my life.
What happens when you actually create a brand script for you as a person is all of a sudden you have extreme clarity about what your story is about. Nothing creates cognitive dissonance, a sense of lack of fulfillment, anxiety, even depression, more than a lack of clarity about the story I'm in.
I went to see Megalopolis, Francis Ford Coppola's new movie, with a friend. And 30 minutes in, I couldn't stand this movie.
I had no idea what it was about. It was filled with a star-studded cast who were making fools of themselves.
Horribly written. Worst movie I've ever seen in the theater, by far, and I'm not the only one to say that.
My buddy finally said, can you figure out what this movie's about? And I said, no, but the Seahawks are on television at the sports bar across the street.

We literally got up and we crossed the street to watch football.

And it's been a running joke of like, how did that movie get made?

A lot of people have that experience, not in the theater, but in their lives.

And it's because they haven't identified something clear that they want to do as a husband, something clear that they want to do as a father, something clear that they want their business to accomplish. Most of us have done it in our businesses, but we haven't done it in our personal life.
And when you actually sit down and you can use storybrand.ai for free to do it, to create a brand script for you, not for your business, for you. What are you for? What are you against? What are the challenges that oppose you? What is the action that you need to take? What positive, wonderful, happy thing will happen if you take that action? What terrible, awful thing will happen if you don't? And you sit there and you look at it and you go, oh my word, my life suddenly makes sense.
And when it makes sense, I call it putting something on the plot. You can wake up every day and put a little something on the plot.
You know, I'll be home at five o'clock today. Normally I'm home between 3 and 5 to spend time with my 3-and-a-half-year-old little girl.
I do that to put something on the plot in the story that I am living about being an emotionally present dad. That's my goal.
You can't be emotionally present unless you're physically present. So now there are rules.
I'm home before five and preferably sometime around three o'clock every day. And I also wake her up every morning.
So I wake her up, I get 20 minutes with her before I leave and go to work, and then I get about four hours with her at night. And by the way, it's not just my child, it's my wife too, because if I'm with her, I'm with my...
So I want to be an emotionally present... And there's other rules.
When I walk in the front door, my phone comes out of my pocket, sits right next to the key bowl, and I do not pick it up until 9.30 at p.m. And then I respond to some things and I put it back down.
You don't create rules like that unless you know what your story is about, unless you know what your story you want to be about. Most of us live in reaction to whatever life throws at us, but we don't live with intention.
And so to me, creating a brand script for your personal life is a fantastic way to get clarity. There's another thing that I did years ago, 10 years ago, and I still look at it certainly every week, sometimes every day, and it's an old exercise that Stephen Covey got from somebody.
I don't remember who he got it from, but write your eulogy. So sit down and write what you want to have been said about you at your funeral and read it all the time, because what it does is it tells you when you read it, when you read your ambitious, aspirational eulogy, you're reminding yourself day after day where the end zone is.
And if you don't know where the end zone is, guaranteed you're going to be running in the wrong direction at some point, right? Because you're getting tackled. There are people wrapping up around your legs.
There's blood and spit everywhere. It's too hard.
You're going to forget where the end zone is. So when you remind yourself, no, at the end of Don's life, he was a great husband, a great dad, and a great friend to these specific guys and this specific woman and this specific daughter.
And I go, oh yeah, honestly, I've been doing this for 10 years. And if I don't read my eulogy, I'll forget where the end zone is within five days, John, within five days.
I'll think the end zone is about making money. I'll think the end zone is about doing 20 pull-ups in a row.
And I'll think the end zone is about whatever. And I read my eulogy, and I'm like, oh, that's not the end zone.
The end zone is great husband, great father, great friend. And so there's some exercises that you do, I think, to help yourself enter into a story that can be really helpful.
I had this pastor, I used to work for Lowe's Home Improvement, and I had this pastor in Mooresville, North Carolina, who loved Stephen Covey. And one of my favorite sermons he ever did was the main thing about the main thing is keeping the main thing which is the fight through that eulogy exercise and you figure out your main things then he goes to the Eisenhower matrix and he says well the two metrics that you have more than anything to make sure you're keeping the main thing are your pocketbook and your calendar.
Yes. So it's a great lesson there.
Yeah. And the last thing I wanted to ask you before I ask you just for a wrap up is part of your message is that every great story includes a plan.
If you think about this from an individual's journey, what are the elements of a great plan for personal transformation? Well, there are a myriad and you can create them in any kind of way you want. There's all sorts of structures, seven habits of highly effective people, getting things done.
There's a couple of professors out of Stanford who spent a lot of time figuring out how to create a plan for your life. I wrote a book called Hero and a Mission that has a life plan inside of it.
There's a million different ways, but we're all trying to accomplish the same thing. And when I say a plan, it usually is a vision of what you want to accomplish, milestones to get there, and habits that you have to do every day in order to accomplish that thing.
I think it's a matter of sitting down, sometimes with help from somebody, to create a life plan. My life plan involves a eulogy, that is my overall life vision, a 10-year vision, what does it look like when I'm 10 years toward my eulogy, five year, one year, plus goals, plus a daily meditative practice in which I prioritize three things I'm going to do today,

come up with five or six other things that are not a priority, but things that I'd like to do, things that I'm grateful for.

Actually, at HeroOnAMission.com, I had my team create software that I use as a daily morning ritual. And it was $10 a month until we paid for it.
And once we paid for it, we made it free. So thanks to the early adopters, it got paid for, and I think it was a couple hundred grand.
And now it's paid for, and anybody can use it for free. And about 10 new people sign up for it every day, which is really fun.
But you just create, you just do a morning ritual, and it'll walk you through it. And it's a life plan.
I love it. Donald, it was such an amazing time having you on today.
I've always wanted to have you on the podcast, so this is a true honor. I just wanted to end because you've given some people different ways to find you.
What's the next chapter in your story and how do you hope to continue inspiring transformation? Well, I'm always trying to figure out which book comes next and it's being air traffic control. You're watching planes circle the airport.
You got to figure out which one to bring down based on who's got gas and who doesn't have gas and who else is in the area. But there's a book called The Story-Driven Dad that I'm playing with.
And there's another book called A New Story for America that would take a couple years probably to write. And so I'm not sure which one is going to start landing next, but I've narrowed it down to those two.
Both of them, I believe, will be written. At what order? I don't know.
But that's what's next for me. StoryBrand.ai continues to just blow our minds in terms of how well it's succeeding and how helpful it is to those who subscribe.
And I'm keeping an eye on that. But ultimately, I'm probably, John, in a place where I'm enjoying my life more than I ever have.
And I'm enjoying it because, quite honestly, I'm less ambitious than I've ever been in my life. I like being a good dad.
I like being a good husband. I like being a good friend.
And I don't want to work with anybody I don't enjoy working with. And so I've created this perfect life of about 35 people I get to work with, and we're all having a great time and a really fun marriage and a really fun dad.
I think when you get married older and you become a dad when you're older, the way I did, you make a lot fewer mistakes because you've got a trillion mistakes behind you. And so I think just to keep doing what I'm doing and it is to me, it's the, it's fulfilling the promise that I've made to my friends that I'm going to be there for them, that my wife, I'm going to be there for her, that my daughter, I'm going to be there for her, that my team, I'm going to be there for him.
It's fulfilling that promise. I think that is the driving plot in my life right now.
Great. Well, every time I come to Nashville, Marshall Goldsmith invites me to go on a walk with him.
So next time I take a walk with Marshall, I would love to join. If you're inviting me, I'm there.
I don't want to assume. I would love to.
Maybe we could get Rory to join us too. There you go, John.
It was a pleasure to meet you. Such an honor, man.
Thank you so much for coming on PassionStruck. Yes.
God bless. And that's a wrap on today's discussion.
What an inspiring and impactful conversation with Donald Miller. From unpacking the transformative power of storytelling to learning how to position yourself as a guide in the story of your customers.
Today's episode has been a masterclass in clarifying your message, building trust, and creating meaningful connections. Donald's insights into the story brand framework, the importance of focusing on your audience as the hero, and the revolutionary tools introduced in building a story brand 2.0 remind us that great communication isn't just about being heard, it's about being understood.
His emphasis on simplifying your message to cut through the noise is a game changer for anyone looking to amplify their impact, whether in business, leadership, or life. As we wrap up, I encourage you to reflect on your own story and the way you're communicating it.
How can you create clarity in your message? How can you step into the role of the guide to help others succeed? And most importantly, how can you use these tools to build a legacy that matters? If Donald's message resonated with you, I invite you to leave us a five-star rating and review. Your feedback helps fuel our mission to inspire intentional living and growth within the Passion Start community.
And if you know someone who could benefit from this episode, share it with them because sharing wisdom is one of the most powerful ways to make an impact. For links to everything we discussed today, Thank you.
and explore exclusive deals from our sponsors at passionstruck.com slash deals. Supporting our sponsors allows us to continue bringing you these meaningful conversations.
Coming up next on Passion Struck, I'm joined by Dr. Kurt Gray, the incoming Weary Family Foundation endowed chair in the Social Psychology of Polarization and Misinformation Department at Ohio State University.
Dr. Gray is a leading social psychologist who explores the intersection of morality, politics, and belief systems.
We explore the science behind moral transformation, the hidden power of empathy, and why understanding how people change is one of the most important skills of the 21st century. You won't want to miss it.
We have to contend with this idea that like within our tribes now, there's potentials for violence, potentials for harm. And so we needed a moral sense, a psychological tool to ensure that others didn't harm us, to safeguard us from interpersonal harm.
And so that moral sense is just this kind of like moral conviction that those who perpetrate harm, especially within our in-group, are immoral. And if someone does something bad, we get outraged at them and we kick them out of the group or we punish them somehow.
And so this kind of moral sense that we have today still really has its roots back in our kind of evolutionary past where we first got into groups and we were first confronted with other people and their capacity to harm us. Thank you, as always, for joining me here on PassionStruck.
If you found value in today's episode, the fee is simple. Share it with someone who could benefit and take action to live what you listen.
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