Why Is Trump Scared of the Media?

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Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
And I'm Jen Psaki. On today's show, Kamala Harris and Donald Trump open up a new front in the campaign, the all-out media blitz.
We're going to get into all the highs and lows of the candidates' interviews, what their strategy is, and whether it's working. And later I'm going to be talking with Joyce Craig, the Democratic candidate for governor in New Hampshire, a state near and dear to both of us, about a race we really, really need to win.
But first, Jen, it's so awesome to have you. It's great to see you and be here with you.
Now, I have not talked to you in person or over Zoom since you were on with Jesse Waters. So congrats on that performance.
That was fun. And the bond that was clearly made there.
It was almost awkward to listen to, but I loved it. In fact, I talked to you the night before because I was on your show at the convention and then the next night I did Jesse Waters.
See, look at that. Look at that.
Quite a bookend. So everyone knows who you are.
Former White House press secretary, host of MSNBC's Inside with Jen Psaki. But most importantly, a good friend who spent many anxious Octobers with me for the last 20 years now.
So many. So many polar coasters together.
Some ended up better than others. That's true.
Our first not so good later on, much better. The Kerry campaign days when we thought we were winning the day of the election because of the um polls that day because of uh the exit polls that was incorrect a lesson learned by all uh quick vibe check how are you feeling um optimistic and nervous both all of the feelings yeah you know i get asked question a lot.
I was just down getting coffee and somebody asked me, what do you think is going to happen? And how do you think the race is? And he said, don't tell me it's close. Well, that's kind of where we are this many days out.
Do you want me to go state by state with you? I can. But yes, I'm sure you get lots of those too.
I was just at a dinner last night, which was basically everyone at the dinner. Just like I had to I ended up doing a live Pod Save America for people because they were like, yeah, tell us what's going to happen and and why it's why it's going to be OK.
And I was like, I can't do either of those things. Unfortunately, It's the time of year.
We've all lived through. I was at my neighborhood block party a couple of weeks ago.
And more than one person stopped me and said, how big is this Georgia hand-counting situation? I was like, it's a level of specificity. But that is what everybody's paying attention to for good reason.
And we've all been through not only losing like you and I were a part of in 2004. We've been through winning and the elation of that.
And we've been through the trauma that was 2016 and 2020 in different ways. So no wonder everybody feels traumatized.
I know. That's a good point.
It makes sense. OK, let's get into it.
The other week, Dan suggested an everything, everywhere, all at once media strategy for Kamala Harris.

And boy, has she delivered.

In the last 72 hours, the vice president has done Call Her Daddy, 60 Minutes, The View, Howard Stern, Stephen Colbert, and Coach Walls was on Jimmy Kimmel Live. Harris also has a Univision Town Hall Thursday.
those appearances will reach combined tens of millions of viewers,

many of them voters who aren't political junkies like you and I, some who haven't decided whether to vote or who to vote for. Let's take a listen to some of the highlights from Harris and Walz's appearance.
Please welcome back the next president of the United States. There are so many people in our country who are right in the middle.
They're taking care of their kids and they're taking care of their aging parents. And it's just almost impossible to do it all.
So what I am proposing is that basically what we will do is allow Medicare to cover in-home health care. They try to paint you like you're some leftist, I don't know, who wants to have people running through the streets committing crimes.
You were a prosecutor. I have put a lot of people in jail.
I have personally prosecuted everything from child sexual assault to homicides.

You all remember when we grew up, this idea that we could have different ideas, but we have unity, love the democracy, have an election, and then shake hands and admit the person who won won. One of the old saws is they just want somebody they can have a beer with.
So would you like to have a beer with me so I can tell people what that's like? OK, this was, now we asked ahead of time,

because I can't just be giving a drink to the Vice President of the United States. But I'd ask...
You asked for Miller High Life. You asked for Miller High Life.
So cheers. Okay, cheers.
There you go. You know, when you've lost...
You lost millions of jobs. you lost manufacturing, you lost automotive plants, you lost the election, what does that make you? A loser.
This is what happens when I drink beer. Miller High Life, that is a...
It's a choice. That is a commitment to winning Wisconsin right there.
It is a commitment to winning Wisconsin. She's like, I will just roll in floating jello and punch and have Miller High Life every day until the election.
Whatever it takes. Whatever needs to happen.
I know you've been talking about this on your show, too, but what do you think of Harris's media strategy in this this last week? I love it you know and I remember and I know I heard Dan's description and that

hearkened me back to working for Dan many, many years ago. Yeah.
I mean, the thing for everybody to remember is that most people are not putting politics in their veins every day, like you and I and everybody listening to your show every week and everybody who watches me every week in that same way. And the majority of people who Kamala Harris needs to vote are not doing that.
And so what she's doing is so smart because she is getting outside of the bubble of people who are talking to themselves about the election and what matters and what doesn't and what has an impact and what doesn't. The other piece, and I talked about this a little bit on my show the other night, but just to get some things off my chest, is it drives me absolutely insane.
And I say this, having spent 10 years working in the White House, briefing the press every day, I value the press, I understand and value the role of the media. But the notion that you can only ask a question of a presidential candidate or a president if you have a White House press credential is absurd.
Absurd. And all you have to do is listen to, and I listened to the Howard Stern interview this morning.
He is an excellent interviewer, better than anyone else I have heard interview a presidential candidate in my many years of doing this. And he got to all of the core questions.
I mean, they talked about Putin. They talked about her plans for the economy.
They talked about her career as a prosecutor. And the thing that is so appealing about how he asks the questions is there's an element of performative stuff that happens, I think.
I don't think you and I do it as much, but I think it happens, of course, in the media where it's like people think they have to do something like this. Hello, Vice President Harris.
How are you concerned that Vladimir Putin was receiving covid tests from Donald Trump? It's like, are you fucking kidding me? Of course, I'm concerned. Who isn't concerned? I mean, so he asked the question, like, isn't that insane? And it's like, yes, it's insane.
And what does it mean? And I think that is how people digest things. And, but I love the strategy because it is way outside of the bubble.
I mean, call her mother, call her daddy, call her daddy. I'm like, call your mother, whatever.
You know what I'm talking about? Also call your mother. I'm like, I've been mixing up the things.
call her mother call her daddy call her daddy i'm like call your mother whatever you know what i'm talking about i'm like i've been mixing up the things call her daddy um has 10 million listeners and most of them are under 35 it's really really smart i will say as a sidebar i was like oh i'm an alex cooper fan i love her i'm gonna listen to her now right so i'm in the car with my nine-year-old daughter yesterday and I'm like, I'll just find a past episode. No, no.
Yep. No.
I put it on. I was like, whoa.
Yeah. I mean, I'll listen to it.
Not with my nine year old in the car. But yes, I think it's outside of the people who Google refresh on White House dot gov outside of the people who are listening to your excellent podcast every week.

It needs to be way outside of that.

And I think the last thing I'll say is this polling that everybody overly focuses on and then describes in their own way, which is another thing that drives me insane. Yeah.
Like the 28 percent who want to know more about her. We don't know exactly what that means.
My gut here is that 28% is not looking for a 200-page economic plan dropped on each of their doorsteps, though she does have a plan that's what, 85 pages or something. They want to know what makes her tick and how she thinks about things.
What is driving her to think about home health care? What is driving her to think about the child tax credit you talked about? That's what these interviews help achieve. Well, it's exactly right.
And at the end of the day, a lot of voters who haven't figured out what they're going to do yet. Again, these are people who are not not even like listening to Pod Save America or your show.
They're barely paying attention to the news at all because they're they're just living their lives, doing other stuff. And they're going to vote, some of them.
and they're tuning in at the last minute. And so you kind of just, it's a volume game.
You have to be everywhere because you want, like, by chance, if they just happen to be watching The View or they happen to be in their car listening to Sirius Satellite Radio and there's Howard Stern, right? Like, you just have to catch people at times where they're tuning in, which is infrequently for a lot of these voters. And they're going to end up making their mind like via an impression of the candidate, right? Totally.
I mean, I will say one thing I may disagree with Dan on, I don't know, maybe he wouldn't disagree with me, but is I do think that interviews like Call Her Daddy and Howard Stern are more important in this moment when voter registration deadlines are coming up. People are actually voting.
And it's like, what's going to give you a kick in the butt to get out the door? Then 60 Minutes is always good to do, right? It's a very powerful reach. Then a lengthy interview with The New York Times.
I read The New York Times every day, but that's not. No one ever needs to do it.
No one ever needs to do right it's very powerful reach then a lengthy interview with the new york times like i read the new york times every day but it's just that's not no one ever needs to do it honestly you i i and you know i love the new york times i am not a new york times hater um but same but the i read it first but the idea of a sit down with the new york times talk about like communicating with the same fucking people who have already made up their

minds it just makes no sense it just makes no sense and that's no disrespect to the new york times it's just if you're a campaign strategist that's not where you want to go um and i also think you know so there was first there was the news cycle she's avoiding the press she's avoiding type but it's always a you know this it's always a trap because then she does 60 minutes and of And of course, because it's 60 fucking minutes, they asked her really tough questions.

Yeah.

And you know this it's always a trap because then she does 60 minutes and of course because it's 60 fucking minutes they asked her really tough questions yeah and you know and i think they asked her one on immigration and and they were like well wasn't it too late what you did wasn't it too late when you did and they asked her like three separate times and of course now that the trump campaign everyone like jumps all over it uh once you do the tough interview and now they're like you you know, complaining. We want the full unedited transcript out there, which is just completely ridiculous.
Because like the reason the reason we all know that she had a couple different answers is because 60 Minutes put out the whole interview. But you can't win is the problem.
It's a real I also love this talking or I love hate it. I mean that you hear coming from Trump's people that's like,

or people who are like trying to be, you know, I'm not on any side.

I'm just giving analysis.

People just need to know more about her plans and her policies.

And it's like, are you kidding me right now?

She's not running against Mitt Romney.

What are you talking about?

Like, he can't.

Do you know what any of his plans are?

People who even love him. Could they articulate a five-point plan of his? No.
No, of course not. That's not why they're for him.
No, he's going to close the border. That's it.
One thing I wanted to ask you, like, it's obviously hard to drive a single message with so many interviews and questions over, what, 72 hours. Yeah.
But could you detect any themes or do you think the intended message was the media strategy itself? Some of it was I think they had to get over the hurdle of the media strategy. Like, I'm not afraid.
Get out of here. I'm doing 100 interviews in four days.
Some of the themes, and I was listening for exactly this, and as you well know, you can't control what the people ask you about, right? And Alex Cooper wanted to ask about women's rights, abortion rights, and specifics there. So there were obvious themes that were coming through in that.
One of the things I did hear over and over again, which was in her convention speech, you hear her do this in the stump, is like he is not a serious like not a serious person right about trump that's one of her lines he's thinking about himself not about you right there were some lines and messages that you did hear over and over again but you know they covered the gamut a little bit um but i think what she is kind of good at and and i thought this was the case especially especially in the Howard Stern interview, was kind of bringing it back to, you know, he asked her about working at McDonald's and kind of things along those lines. And she would bring it back to, well, that's why I care so much about an opportunity agenda, right? And people may be like, what's an opportunity agenda? But she's getting better at bringing it back to what the core message is.
so a little bit of it's about I'm about you. I'm going to fight for you.
And he's fighting for himself, which I have always thought is a core message. Right.
And that was a core message in 2012 when you and I were working for Obama and he ran. What do you think? What did you what did you did you hear thematics? Did you hear more like a rat all over the place? No, I heard that.
I heard she it's interesting. I think she did this with Stern, but she talked about she sees this election as strength versus weakness.
Yeah. And trying to redefine what strength is and and basically trying to define Trump as weak just because he doesn't care about people, which is interesting.
You could tell in some of these interviews, Howard Stern, a few others, that she's, like, they know that they're having issues with young men. Yes.
And so she wanted to appear tough, which I think she is, right? Like, and she talked about locking people up. Have you shot it? Of course I have.
She's firing glocks. She's locking people up.
Like, you know, she's not going to be defined as weak. That's for sure.
So I could detect that a little bit. And I don't know.
It's interesting with her, like, having watched all this, I think she's excellent talking about personal stuff and her life and, like, just being a normal human being. And.
I mean, she talks about it in a way that is like better than most people who talk about it, including people who lead organizations around it. And like has a real passion, you know? Yes.
And I think that she's also really good when she goes after Trump. Like she's I think that she's at her sharpest there.
You made the point about everyone being like, I need your plans. I need your plans.
When she feels like forced to talk about her plans, like the details of the plans are good. When she tries to put like language and values around it, that's when she, I think gets into the, you know, she's sort of just talking about, it's like a little more cliche.
Yeah. But I think like if I, if I, you know, small things at this point, but like making it more of a contrast with Trump, even on the policies.
So it's like, like, what do you want to do? And I think in 60 Minutes she did the, they asked how you pay for it. And she's like, well, I want to make the middle class strong.
And he wants to make it weak, which is directionally the right message. But it's more like big tax cut.
He wants to give big tax cut to rich people. I want to give a tax cut to the middle class.
Done. No other language.
it that's all you need to do it's also yes that's so true because yeah there's something about it that's like it's not quite there it still feels like you're reading from the talking points off of your speech yeah i think she'll get there but it is the contrast piece it's like the child care one is such a good one too because remember when he was asked about child care and it was like oh yeah clearly since you and i are gonna play for child care of child rearing right now i can tell you that man has never had a conversation about child care in his life but she can make that point right yep look that guy's never had a conversation about chucker he never dealt with that ever yeah that's a good idea um and some of that is making him seem, which he is, disconnected from what people are actually going through.

Which I think is if she can drive that home and sort of like she's done a great job sort of chipping away at his advantage on the economy.

And she's, you know, leading when the question is cares about people like you and fighting for people like you.

If she can make that the big issue in the homestretch and really paint him as out of touch and her is connected to people, I think that like that's her best chance of putting this away. Yes, for sure.
On that note, there were a few bits of news to come out of the interviews. On The View, we heard this in the clip, the vice president announced that she wants Medicare to cover home healthcare, vision and hearing.
So right now, if you're caring for an aging parent or a relative um basically they have to qualify for medicaid to get care that allows them to stay at home and to get someone to come uh to the to their home and care for them and uh i've we had that experience with my grandmother like you basically have to uh spend your life savings in order to qualify for medicaid and the waiting list is very very long and so um it's really really hard for a lot of seniors to be able to like stay in their home and then they have to go somewhere else or you have to if you're the uh the the son or daughter or the grandkids then you have to care for them while and kamal harris pointed this out while're also caring for your own children. She talked about the sandwich generation.
What did you think about the policy? Do you think that was smart? I think that's great. I also love that she is thinking about very specific nuggets.
I mean, you and I lived through the Affordable Care Act unpopularity for many years, right? Yes it felt so overwhelming to people. And it became this thing that was tied to Barack Obama.
So if you liked him, you liked it. If you didn't like him, you didn't like it, even when it was the program you were on in your state.
And there was tons of research that showed that. People would say, do you like the health care you're on? Yeah, I love it.
And it it was obamacare do you like obamacare i do not right right and i think the problem with big huge plans and talking about it as the big huge plan is that people politicize it in their minds and they don't understand the nugget and the nuggets the affordable care act became more popular in part because people didn't like having something taken away from them, right? But also in part because the president, Obama, when we were working for him and the team started breaking down the pieces of it, right? It's like, hey, your kids can be covered if they're under 25. It's like, oh, they can? They don't even care what else is in the Affordable Care Act.
That's great if you have a preexisting condition. And so elements of this remind me of that.
And to your earlier point, she's better in talking about the economic pieces when she's talking about the six thousand dollar tax credit. If you have a new baby.
Right. this particular piece you just explained on home health care, which so many people deal with and navigate because it becomes real to people and it doesn't make them feel like they are being spat out

a pamphlet.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

It's like a thing that could help me and I'm for that thing.

Yeah.

And she had some, you know, she had personal experience too that she talked about.

Yeah.

Because she took care of her mother when her mother had cancer.

Yeah.

So she also made news on The View in a way she probably didn't intend to when the hosts asked this question. Would you have done something differently than President Biden during the past four years? There is not a thing that comes to mind in terms of, and I've been a part of most of the decisions that have had impact.
Listen, I plan on having a Republican in my cabinet. You asked me what's the difference between Joe Biden and me.
Well, that will be one of the differences. So Trump and Vance unsurprisingly pounced on this.
I think they had an ad out this morning. There's like at least one Republican House candidate has an ad on this.
Obviously, reporters jumped on it. She got the question again on Colbert, basically punted again, saying she's not Joe Biden, but she's also not Donald Trump.
That got a lot of applause. We talked last show about the reports that the Harris folks are contemplating putting more daylight between her and Biden.
And there's certainly a case to be made that a lot of voters want to see how she'd be different. But obviously, that's a tricky balance for a number of reasons.
How do you think she should answer this question? Didn't we love it when people kind of backseat drove when we were sitting in the White House? We were like burning them in effigy in the office. But let's do it anyway.
Because I literally I listened to that part and I was texting with the executive producer of my show about exactly this answer, right? Yeah. Because it's an obvious question you would get, which is, again, easy for us to say.
I think, to me, it can be something like this. I love Joe Biden and I'm so proud of what we've built together.
But nobody expects us to be carbon copies of each other because challenges change. The world change.
I'm going to be proud to build on what we accomplished, but I am different. I'm coming at it from a different perspective and that is going to be part of my guide.
Well, what specifically will be different? Well, I will tell you this, you know, I'm somebody who went to visit an abortion clinic. That's important to me.
I have dealt with dealing with home health care because of my mother, you know, in terms of what, how the policies, you know, my point is like her, who she is and her background is different. It's like having different people and a different table to make decisions.
But I think there's a way to say a different kind of pivot, which is like, I love him. I'm going to build on that.
But we're not carbon copies. Don't expect it.
And I come at things from a different perspective. What is that going to look like? Well, there's time to figure that out.
I mean, I'm not sure she has to give a list of 10 things or that's my take. It's just sending an indication.
And the reason this is so important and why the Trump people pounced on it is because she is more of the change candidate right now when you look at polling than Trump, which is a very because the change candidate is often and typically the winning candidate. And the fact that she is the sitting vice president and is seen as more of the change candidate is a huge plus for her.
And the Trump team wants to change that. But so anyway, I don't think it needs to be a list of 10 things.
She's already done like one slightly thing, different thing on taxes, but she can just emphasize how she will build, but she's coming at it from a different perspective and she's going to approach problems slightly differently. And he knows that she loves Joe.
He gets that. Yeah, I totally agree with that.
I think that's a great answer. I get why it's tricky because Joe Biden's unpopularity is not tied to specific decisions and policies that he pushed or made.
Right. Like and that's what's so hard about this.
The unpopularity is tied to the broader discontent with the effects of pandemic induced inflation right which which he did not have anything to do with and we go you know we've been through this for the last several years so it's really hard to go back and be like he and she was also as she said in uh one of the appearances she's like i was part of most of the decisions so she can't go back and be like i actually secretly disagreed with him on X, Y, and Z, but I just didn't say anything, right? So you're limited in what you can do on that, just to be honest. I do think she can say like, she can sort of like break the fourth wall here and just be like, hey, I realize that everyone wants me to just like put some distance between us or say something different.
The truth is like, we all wish we could do different things. If we look back at the, at the last four years.
And I was in the administration too. Everyone looks back.
I'm not looking back though. I'm looking forward.
And that is the whole reason I'm here in the future. And you know what? Joe Biden has been trying to, and I have been trying to lower costs.
And a lot of times Republicans blocked our attempts to lower costs. And so what I'm hoping to do as president is to keep fighting and to keep lowering costs.
And Donald Trump doesn't want to do that. He wants to give tax cuts to rich people.
Like I would, I think you got to be like, punch it a little bit more. Yes.
And back to the Trump contrast. I mean, totally.
The Trump contrast is so key to it. The other two things I think are that are tricky for her in my view is one, Joe Biden is still the president, right? And the whole question of where she is on Israel and where she is on Gaza, he is the president while there is a team trying to negotiate a ceasefire deal, which doesn't look likely at this moment.
But you can't have the sitting vice president of the United States, and I don't know what her position is on this, But if she has a different one, you can't have her come out with a different position. One president at a time.
Well, there's a team overseas. So that's one challenging thing.
The other challenging thing is obviously there is still a great deal of heartache and heartburn from a swath of the party that feels deeply upset on behalf of Joe Biden. Right.
Yeah. Many of them are attacking you and I on Twitter currently, I'm certain.
And that's fine. Even though I love Joe Biden.
We're just here to state what was happening in the political discussion at the moment. But that aside, she has managed this perfectly.
She did not push him out in any way, shape or form, right? He made the decision. She acted immediately.
She does not want to appear like she is pushing him and his policies over the ledge, right? Because she's managed that piece very well. And that's another tricky piece, I think, for her.
Yeah, I mean, the truth of it is how she's going to be different is we're in a different time than when he took office and she was vice president. And where we are now is, you know, the economy has bounced back, but prices are still too high and costs are still too high.
So her focus is going to be on costs. That's what's going to be different, you know, and it's not for anything that he did poorly.
It's just that we're in a different time period now. Yes.
And it's like, look back. When Barack Obama was elected, he was not openly for gay marriage.
Right. Right? I mean, times change.
Things evolve. She's going to be dealing with different types of challenges as well.
And that's an important thing to remember. But she's also coming at things with an entirely different background, which will impact things for sure.
Well, I just, she's got that Univision Town Hall Thursday night.

I'm betting that they'll practice another answer.

I hope so.

Fingers crossed.

That is one where you're like, that is one that can be fine-tuned.

From the first time she answered the question, I think when she was asked by Dana Bash about

changing positions, she did have a different answer in 60 Minutes. That was better.
Yeah, I thought that was my CNN interview. And you figure out how to answer things in a better way.
It doesn't mean your your position change. It just means how you articulate it.
That's a natural part of doing more interviews. I was going to say, and that is why you do so many interviews, too, because

you just, it's reps,

right? It's just you just keep doing it and you get better. Like, we've all been there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do wish they were doing more local TV.
That's one. Oh, yeah.
I saw she did, like, a Pittsburgh local affiliate, like, a week ago, but I haven't seen much since then. But I'm sure they'll do more.
every weeknight, from the lowest lows to the highest lows and everything in between. They'll be there to break it all down.
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How do I find them all? Fuck, we have to talk about this now. So it's about Trump's personal relationship with Vladimir Putin, including sending him COVID tests for his own use at the beginning of the pandemic when it was extremely hard to get COVID tests.
The Trump campaign denied this. Kremlin confirmed it today.
Let's listen to her answer on this. So I actually said it even in the debate.
I believe that Donald Trump has this desire to be a dictator. He admires strong men.
And he gets played by them because he thinks that they're his friends. Yeah.
And they are manipulating him full time and manipulating him by flattery and with favor. And so in the midst, to your point, as reported by Bob Woodward, in the height of the pandemic, and remember, and your listeners will remember, people were dying by the hundreds.
Yeah. Everybody was scrambling to get these kits, the tests, the COVID test kits.

Couldn't get them.

Couldn't get them.

Couldn't get them anywhere.

Right.

And this guy who is president of the United States is sending them to Russia

to a murderous dictator for his personal use?

When he was talking about Americans should be putting bleach in their blood.

That is just the most recent, stark example of who Donald Trump is. She seemed genuinely offended and upset by that, which I liked.
Oh, first of all, can also that is the question anyone would have asked her from any major outlet. Can we just I mean, and that answer is a a great answer she would have given no matter who asked the question but actually he asked it in a way that teeter up maybe in a way to be even more impassioned about it um yes i mean her point is the manipulation point is such an interesting one and it made me think like mean, SNL has been doing so many good things about this presidential campaign right now.

They have the best people playing them.

An amazing skit would be Vladimir Putin, Netanyahu, the head of the Heritage Foundation.

Oh, yeah.

The people who pick Supreme Court justices just sitting around licking their traps about how they can manipulate Donald Trump. That's elected.
Because that's how they all look at it, right? This is a person who's the vehicle for me getting my thing done. And it's a great response to the people who are like, well, Trump's kind of crazy, but maybe it's good that he's crazy because everyone's going to be afraid of him.
And, you know, like I talked to a friend who actually said that to me, who is voting for Harris, but was like, you know, you do have to admit, you know, Trump's a little crazy and on the world stage, maybe that helps. And I was like, no, it doesn't help because all these other fuckers are smarter than him.
These other dictators and they are playing him all the time. And it's going to be more dangerous because they're getting exactly what they want because he's dumb.
When you have dumb unfit person as your president it doesn't matter if he's crazy if he's dumb they're gonna be able to take advantage of him it is so i mean the other we're just gonna i'm just we're just gonna keep offering talking points to the harris team and they're gonna be so thrilled and delighted by that but the other thing and i've talked about this a little bit on my show, is like, dictators are not strong. They are weak.
They cannot be democratically elected. They need to control the media.
They need to control anybody who is their opponent. That is why Donald Trump likes them, because they control things.
And you only have to control things if you're weak. And that's a sign of his own weakness, not strength, actually.
I think she really nailed that point. All right, let's talk about Trump, the candidate who's clearly hiding from tough questions and real journalists.
His media appearances the last few days have been with Trump supporters and right-wing networks. Ben Shapiro, who's hosted a fundraiser for Trump.
Hugh Hewitt, who ended his interview by telling him to come back after he's president again. Laura Ingram, who shills for him every night.
And Newsmax, which just settled a defamation lawsuit for spreading Trump's election lies. One interview Trump was too scared to do, 60 Minutes, which he backed out of last minute.
The broadcast, which was a special episode that was supposed to feature both candidates, started with Scott Pelley reading texts and emails from the Trump campaign that confirmed his appearance, followed by an explanation for why he canceled. Let's listen.
Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump accepted our invitation. But unfortunately, last week, Trump canceled.
The campaign offered shifting explanations. First, it complained that we would fact checkcheck the interview.
We fact-check every story. Later, Trump said he needed an apology for his interview in 2020.
Trump claims correspondent Leslie Stahl said in that interview that Hunter Biden's controversial laptop came from Russia. She never said that.
Both campaigns understood this special would go ahead if either candidate backed out. So, first of all, Scott Pelley's voice is so great.
So 60 Minutes. It's so 60 Minutes.
It's so awkward. Those texts are just uncomfortable, you know? I mean, do you think think this like, does this matter? I mean, I do think it, it probably doesn't, I don't know if it matters to voters, although I hope it does, but at least the, the media, which has been like Harris hiding from the press.
I mean, like Donald Trump has just ducked 60 minutes, backed out last minute, won't do the next debate, and has just been like retreating to his safe space of right wing interviewers. I mean, first of all, I also hear the talking point, which is another one I hate.
Well, this is the Donald Trump strategy, just doing interviews with people who reach bigger audiences. You're like, he's doing interviews with like white nationalists and like, it's a little bit different.
Okay. So let's just start there.
I don't know that it matters. I wish that it would be a point that would make media or people who are analysts question this.
Harris isn't out there enough. She is out there a ton point.
I'm not sure entirely if it will. The other the other point that I hear over and over again, that again, we're just going to debunk here is J.D.
Vance has answered hundreds of questions or whatever the point is. You're like, have you listened to him answer the questions? Because this is what he does.
He says, oh, we're going to hear out their question. And they may ask, you know, what do you think of Donald Trump lying about hurricane relief funds? And he'll say, that's a ridiculous question or whatever.
He's not answering the questions. He's using them as a tool.
Yeah. Oftentimes.
He's also he's also the least popular candidate on either ticket. So that's that's what his strategy has done.
Yes, that is true, too. I don't know that it's going to matter.
I don't think it matters. I don't know that the number of media interviews anyone is doing ever really matters to voters, just like nobody cares if candidates or presidents do press conferences.
They should. It is not a thing voters are moved by.
I think it's more the content of what's popping out of these. And I listened when you guys talk about this the other day.
And the point that often people miss is it's like, it's not just the interview. It's the content from the interview, right? Like what's on Instagram, what's on TikTok, what videos are on YouTube that are being pushed out.
And that video of Harris answering the question about whether, you know, Sarah Huckabee Sanders question right Sarah Huckabee Sanders point about her not being humble my girlfriends from college uh were sending that around they were like I don't even know what this podcast is I'm gonna listen to the whole episode right I mean that's the kind of thing right obviously you want people to just not listen just listen to episode. You want them to also register and then vote.
But there has a – so that's why it matters. But I don't actually think people care if Donald Trump does 60 Minutes or not.
Well, here's what he sounded like in all of the interviews that he did do. Oh, boy.
We got some highlights. Here we go.
Okay. This is not a precedent.
She's answering questions in the most basic way and getting killed over it. And every time she does an interview, she sounds like a child.
She sounds like a person with a very low IQ. Actually, now that you're mentioning it, I think they should do a double 25th Amendment.
Get them both that. Who's third online? The name fake news, I was very proud of it.
But now it just isn't strong enough. It is just so corrupt.
And I call it corrupt news. Now, a murderer, I believe this, it's in their genes.
And we got a lot of bad genes in our country right now. They are illegal immigrants as far as I'm concerned.
But you don't tax the rich. How will you restore faith in our justice system? A lot of people will say, well, he's just going to do to them what they did to him and get back at them.
A lot of people say that's what should happen. You want to know the truth.
I have a hard time doing it to them because I'm basically a truthful person, I'm basically a truthful person, but, and frankly, no, but frankly, no, but frankly. They all laugh at him.
The laughing when he says I'm basically a truthful person. Basically, it's Donald Trump.
He's basically a truthful person. Basically.
I mean, I love when then Sean, was that Laura Ingram? Laura Ingram, yeah. And she was sort of trying to like hand him a softball there.
I mean, it was a warped, messed up softball. Or when the times when Sean Hannity tries to like help him out.
And it's like he just died. He just can't even handle the easy tee up.
That was one of three times. She went back twice to like try to help him and be like, say that he's not going to take revenge on his political opponents.
Some people are saying that's what should happen. He refused to do it.
He's going to do it. That was like a serious...
I mean, in there was him saying, like, oh, you don't want to tax the rich. There were so many things in there in that small compilation that would sink a normal campaign.
And I don't know. I mean, I'm still under the like, I still believe the more Trump we hear, the better it is.
I don't know what you think. I agree.
And I and this is an important this is a debate that's been going on for years. Right.
And I feel like maybe a year ago, I had this point where I was like, you know what? When you listen to him, it is so crazy bananas off the wall with problematic positions. It's much more effective for people to listen to it themselves, which is why I think, one, she keeps saying, watch his rallies, watch his rallies.
That was her answer in 60 minutes when it was like, what do you think of him not doing? And she was like, well, I guess people are going to have to watch his rallies, right? Many people watch his rallies. But also, if you just play, and we do this a lot, and you guys, it's like you just play what he just said.
It's like, I'm not going to sane wash it for you. I'm not going to explain it.
That's what that was. And beyond his hugely problematic positions on a range of issues and xenophobia and racism, he sounds unhinged and also incoherent.
Yes. And I think that's the most important takeaway for voters who haven't decided because, you know, I think in 16, when he was first on the scene, it was like, listen to what he says.
Isn't that offensive? Isn't that going to sink him? And then it wouldn't affect it wouldn't sink him because people were like yeah it was offensive but whatever but when you hear him now it's different because he sounds so crazy he just sounds crazy well crazy and also like even if i were trying to follow you even if you were talking about things that i agreed with yeah i'd be like i'm a little concerned here because it's like you know even if you were saying people the child tax credit should be extended but then he went into like uh sharks versus being electrocuted you're like i don't know you know yeah it's like i just and i like the child tax credit thing but the sharks and electrocution thing that's real concerning or hannibal lecter, whatever it may be, there's a million examples. I know.
In terms of like his media strategy, to the extent that there may be a media strategy, it does seem like the difference is she's going on all these shows and some of them are friendly. Some of them are, you know, tough questions.
Some of them are just really smart, substantive questions. But she seems like she's at least going to end up reaching a bunch of persuadable voters because she's not going on just the lefty stuff and she's not doing just shows that high engaged voters pay attention to.
But with Trump, it seems like he's doing like a pure turnout base strategy with these, which may work for him because he's had fantastic turnout in 2016 and

again, and even higher in 2020 for his base. But it seems like, you know, they're looking for low propensity young men.
And so he's doing some of those podcasts. But then other than that, it's just like turn out the base kind of stuff.
Yeah. I mean, I think part of it is also he knows that his ceiling is low.
They know that. And so and the potential for expanding that is is low and they're not running any strategy that seems like they have any intention of trying to expand, at least not from him.
Right. So part of it is destroy her, reduce voter turnout, suppress voters so that I will have more, I think, is part of the strategy.
The other thing I'm betting, and I don't know, I'm not in the Trump preps for, or the Harris preps, any of the preps, but I've prepped a lot, or I've tried to convince a lot of people running for office to do interviews. And everybody, you approach it differently.
My bet is that, and do you remember that quote that was on background? This also drove me crazy. I'm getting a lot off my chest today.
I like that. From somebody who once worked for her that was like, you have to go in there prepared and have read all the materials and give her a reason for doing something.
It's like, no shit. That is what you do for anybody who is president or running for president.
I mean, what? That's the baseline. But I also, it made me think that we used to go in, especially the last couple of years when we, when, you know, post Dan Zach Galefinakis amazingness, we started to do more and more things like that.
We would go into the Oval Office with one slide to President Obama and we'd say, here are the things I think we think you should do. And a lot of them would be off the wall things.
Right. And he'd say, why? And we'd say, because this reaches this group of people who care deeply about criminal justice reform and you're going to care.
And it's like this thing is, you know, and I think my bet is that she requires an act and demands that as well, which forces the system to really think about what they're proposing to her and make sure it has a purpose.

Whereas Trump, again, I don't know.

My bet is he might be like, who's that guy who said I was good at the rally?

Let's go on his show.

Like, it might be like that.

I don't know.

It's very possible.

Yeah, I think some of it is like comfort food for him, right?

Like, let him go and make him feel comfortable with whoever he wants.

And some of it, like that podcast, that last clip where they were all laughing at him, it's called the Flagrant Podcast. It's just like Andrew Schultz, he's a comedian.
And so I'm guessing it's like someone in the campaign is thinking like young male demographic go on those pods. But the Shapiro Ingram stuff is just, that is comfort food for him.
And it's just like, let's just a combo. I mean is the important thing, I think, also for people to remember, you know, one, we're optimistic, but nervous.
Whatever we say, the combo of things is here because it's all very close, which I know drives people crazy, but it is true, is that as much as Trump is a Looney Tune who says scary, crazy stuff and it's incoherent, His campaign is actually running ads that are quite disciplined on the same topics of crime and immigration online and on TV everywhere. And I'm not saying that is going to win him the election, but there is a level of discipline that is below him that I think is important for people to remember.

Yes, for sure.

Because and that's and that's one reason why it's so close, I think. One last clip I want to get your reaction to did not tell you about in advance.
That's all right. It is from my now good friend, Jesse Waters, interviewing one of my successors in the White House, Stephen Miller.
we're getting a lot of texts from women about Miller and his appearances and his appearance. Our audience at primetime believes you're some sort of sexual matador.
What do you have to say for yourself? Well, let me give advice to any young man that's out there. I'm married now.
I have children, but I wasn't married that long ago. I was single, I was in the market.
If you're a young man, it's very important in election season, who's looking to impress ladies, to be the alpha, to be attractive, the best thing you can do is to wear your Trump support on your sleeve. Show that you are a real man.
Show that you are not a betta. Be a proud and loud Trump supporter, and your dating life will be fantastic.
I cannot wait to see the text tonight. Jen, my question is, do you find it hard to resist Stephen Miller's sexual energy? First of all, I'm like breathing into a paper bag over here because that was, of all, he didn't even say beta.
Beta? Beta? You know, I wouldn't say that somebody who seems to wake up in the morning trying to kick immigrants out of the United States is like the person who I would be most drawn to. I don't know who these texts are coming from.
Are they Stephen Miller's mom? Are they like bots? I do not know. To each his own.
I will say too, for a guy who's into race science and genes and all that shit, he's not a for. No, no, I would be hard pressed to find anyone who that person is his type, even if he even if they are a Trump supporter.
I mean, wild, wild that he was wild that he was on the market for so long. Listen, at least Jesse Waters has good hair, as you know, because you guys bonded.
So we're tight now. That was Stephen Miller.
Terrible person, terrible speechwriter. But apparently a sexual matador.
But a sexual matador. That's it.
When you think of Stephen Miller, that's what you think of. Jen Psaki, thank you so much for joining Positive America again.
Thank you. It was great to be here.
This was so fun. It was fun.
Come back again and hopefully all our nervous energy.

Optimistic and nervous.

I like that.

And matadors.

And matadors.

All right. Thanks, Jen.

When we come back from the break, I'm going to be talking with New Hampshire's Joyce Craig,

the Democratic candidate in the closest and most crucial governor's race in the country.

But two quick things before we get to that.

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Unfortunately, it looks like it's about to wreak absolute havoc on Florida, hoping everyone in the area is safe and that everyone else is doing what you can to help.

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So let's keep that going. When we come back, Joyce Craig.
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Escalade IQ, Optic, and Lyric. Joining us in studio today, the Democratic candidate in the nation's closest race for governor, the former mayor of Manchester, New Hampshire, Joyce Craig.
Welcome to Pod Save America. It's great to be here, John.
Thank you. Got my Dunkin' Donuts.
Nice. Just for you.
You are running in the country's most competitive race for governor. Basically, Democrats' only chance to flip a governorship.
It still hasn't gotten much national attention with everything else going on. For people who are just tuning into this race, what should they know about why it's so important for New Hampshire to have a Democratic governor again? So, John, you said it.
It is the number one flip

opportunity for a governor's race this cycle. And we know that governors right now are making serious decisions when it comes to, you know, freedoms and opportunities for residents in our country.
And in New Hampshire, there is so much on the line. Reproductive freedom, housing crisis to address public education and so much more.

And I'm running against someone who has a record of, you know, basically doing everything they can to decrease reproductive freedom in our country and so much more. And so there's a lot on the line this election.
Kelly Ayotte has voted multiple times for a national abortion ban. She has voted multiple times to defund Planned Parenthood.
You probably recall that she shepherded Neil Gorsuch through the Supreme Court process and then celebrated when Roe v. Wade was overturned.
So, you know, reproductive health care is on the ballot in New Hampshire, and we need to do everything we can to protect that. So I want to get into all that.
Even though I'm from Massachusetts, I'm a big New Hampshire guy.

We talked about this earlier, but for folks who don't know, my dad and his very large family are from Manchester, where you were mayor. My uncle was the chief of police there.
A few of my cousins are still state troopers there. And my grandfather was actually a Republican state rep in the legislature way back before the Republican Party became a cult of Trump.
But I'm interested in how the politics of the state have changed over the last several years. So New Hampshire has Democratic senators and House members, has voted for the Democratic presidential candidate for the last two decades now, but currently has a barely Republican-controlled legislature and one of the most popular Republican governors in

the country who you're running to replace. What's your best guess as to why that is and

how has it shaped your campaign? Yeah, I mean, New Hampshire is a purple state,

and we take pride in making sure we are understanding who is running for these

elections. And you said it, you know, we've had a popular governor, a Republican governor,

for the last eight years. He's not running.
So we have a tremendous opportunity this cycle to

Thank you. elections.
And you said it, you know, we've had a popular governor, a Republican governor for the last eight years. He's not running.
So we have a tremendous opportunity this cycle to flip that seat. And the last time we had a Democratic governor was with Maggie Hassan.
You know, in terms of the House, very, very close to your point. And so this race that we're running right now is not only to win back the governor's seat, but it is to bring back majorities in the statehouse because things are so close and we have a tremendous opportunity to do so.
Residents in New Hampshire have seen the extreme threats that Republicans have shown in the state of New Hampshire. And I feel like a lot of these things have really flown under the radar.
You know, we talked a little bit about reproductive freedom. Governor Sununu just signed a very restrictive bill when it comes to voting that's going to be coming into the not my election, but the next election.
That basically says you have to show a photo ID when you vote and you need proof of citizenship when you register. So really, really restrictive.

No one's talking about that, right? Reproductive freedom is under attack. Gun violence prevention strategies.
We need common sense gun violence prevention strategies in New Hampshire. You know, you can do concealed carry without registering.
My opponent, Kelly Ayotte, as a senator, voted against universal background checks after 20 children were shot and murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary School. And so, you know, this is what New Hampshire has become.
And it's why it's so important that we elect a Democratic governor and Democrats in the statehouse and the state Senate to make sure we are enacting common sense laws to protect our freedoms.

I forgot that I voted against the background checks, which was a bill negotiated by Joe

Manchin and conservative Republican Senator Pat Toomey.

And I remember it was one of the most frustrating moments for Barack Obama in the White House that that bill failed, especially after Sandy Hook. And it was just outrageous.
It is absolutely outrageous. So last time we heard from Kelly Ayotte, she was announcing that she wouldn't be voting for Trump in the 2016 election because of the Access Hollywood tape.
She went on to narrowly lose her Senate seat. Trump of course went on to win the presidency and then fomented a violent insurrection after he failed to overturn the 2020 election.
Now he's running again. And Kelly Ayotte says, quote, he's the right choice for the White House.
What do you think happened there? And how much do you see her support for Trump mattering in your race? I think it matters a lot. It just shows her character, right? I mean, 2016, she said he's unfit to be president.
And so right now she is saying anything she can to be elected. And we can't trust Kelly Ayotte, right? She's just saying anything, doing anything.
But it says a lot about who she is. There's no way that Donald Trump is fit to be our next president.
None. I want to talk about your very popular current governor, Chris Sununu, who has like, he's very popular, but he's followed the same playbook.
He has called Trump an asshole, a coward, fucking crazy, and too old to form a cogent thought without a teleprompter. All direct quotes.

But he's voting for him, he says,

because of inflation.

What do you make of that?

You know, I wish I could.

It's fucking crazy.

It is crazy.

So, you know, it doesn't make any sense.

He worked so hard for Nikki Haley.

And then, like, she lost.

And two days later,

he's fully supporting Donald Trump.

It makes no sense. It doesn't make sense.
You talked about reproductive freedom. So under current New Hampshire law, abortion is legal through the first six months of pregnancy.
And in the last three months, if there are fetal anomalies or medical emergencies, Kelly Ayotte says she supports that law and wouldn't change it. Why shouldn't New Hampshire voters believe her? Because she has spent her entire career attacking reproductive freedom, voted for a national abortion ban, voted to defund Planned Parenthood.
You know, in New Hampshire right now, Republicans have defunded our reproductive health centers, including Planned Parenthood. And she has said already, if she's elected, she would continue to defund them.
The Neil Gorsuch thing, she's, you know, celebrated Roe v. Wade being overturned.
It is just, she, we can't trust what she is saying. Her record shows otherwise.
You know, my mom growing up, she always used to tell me, you know, your actions speak louder than your words. And in this case, Kelly Ayotte's actions absolutely speak louder than her words, and we cannot trust her.
This is obviously a personal issue for you, as it is for so many women and families around the country. You wrote an op-ed about having to get a DNC after you miscarried.
What would you do as governor to protect reproductive freedom? Anything different than current law or policies? Absolutely. New Hampshire is the only state in New England that hasn't codified access to abortion.
And so what we saw this session was that Republicans actually put forward a very restrictive bill, a 15-week abortion ban. Thankfully, they didn't pass.
But until we codify access to abortion into law, we will continue to see this attack on reproductive freedom. And so I am committed to working with our house to codify access to abortion and, you know, increase access to reproductive health care.
Because again, New Hampshire has fallen far behind other states around us in terms of providing the medical services that are needed. Cost of living, huge issue in this race, like it is in most races, especially the cost of housing, which has reached record highs in New Hampshire.
Ayotte has described her approach as build, baby, build. How would you describe your approach and how is it different than hers? So I have put forward a very comprehensive plan to address the housing crisis in New Hampshire.
And as mayor, it's actually something that I tackled as well. And in Manchester, we now have over 2,000 housing units in development.
I had allocated over $30 million toward affordable housing initiatives. And we broke ground this past December on one of the largest affordable housing developments in the entire state.
So I've negotiated with developers, incentivized housing, and understand the challenges that our local communities are facing. I've been on the front line of this and made progress.
All while Kelly Ayotte has made millions of dollars sitting on the corporate board of Blackstone. That is like literally, you know, jacking up rents and pushing people out of their homes.
And so buying up housing. Exactly.
It's it is like the total opposite of what we need in leadership in the state of New Hampshire. And it is a joke.
We do need to build. We need to build now the projection statewide or that we need 60,000 housing units by 2030.
But I'm the only person in this race who knows how to get it done. And I'm committed to doing it.
You recently said that you would legalize the use of recreational marijuana in order to help make housing more affordable, improve education, avoid a broad sales or income tax in New Hampshire. In response to your plan, Ayotte said, quote, Joyce Craig can smoke her way to a balanced budget, but I'm going to do it the old-fashioned way.
My question is, how does one smoke their way to a balanced budget? Who knows? And I'll add, she has never done a budget. When she was at the Senate, they didn't pass a budget.
You know, as mayor, I had to build budgets, $400 million for the city of Manchester. I understand what it takes.
And to your point, I, you know, would veto a sales or an income tax. We are seeing a decrease in revenues in the state of New Hampshire.
This is going to be a challenging budget. And she wants to give tax breaks to millionaires like herself in the state of New Hampshire.
She's not focused on what's right and decreasing costs for hardworking families in the state of New Hampshire. So even though my dad's side of the family is from New Hampshire, I was born and raised in Massachusetts, which is why the most personally offensive part of Kelly Ayotte's campaign has been her adoption of the slogan, don't mass up New Hampshire.
She's also accused you of wanting to make New Hampshire more like Massachusetts. Do the good people of New Hampshire have something against your southern neighbors or what's going on there? They do not.
They do not. It is, again, it's really one of these crazy things.
You know, I'll just add, though, I'm a fourth-generation resident of New Hampshire and running for governor of New Hampshire to make the lives of people in New Hampshire better, right? And we know there's a lot we can do. We talked about it.
And I look forward to working with governors in New England to make sure we are focusing on things that we can do together to help residents and businesses in New Hampshire. And, you know, we're hearing from businesses in our state now, you know, pushing back on Kelly Ayotte because tourism is a huge thing in New Hampshire.
Oh, yeah. And, you know, you've got people from Massachusetts saying, well, I'm not welcome there.
I'm going to go somewhere else. And that's wrong, right? And I've had a lot of family and friends move up to Southern New Hampshire.
I spent my summers at Hampton Beach up in North Conway in the White Mountains. So yeah, New Hampshire is great for tourism.
Yeah. I used to work in Massachusetts, took the bus there from Manchester, and a lot of people do that.
And we've got to be welcoming. This is not, it's baloney.
It's very Trump-era Republican Party. Finally, very important question.
Puritan backroom, what is your chicken tender order? I do traditional, but I do like the coconut. I do want to mention, though, while I was mayor, I signed a proclamation that identified Manchester as the chicken tender capital of the world.
I hope you know that. For people who don't know, I did not know that.
For people who don't know, the chicken tenders at the Puritan back room are maybe the best I've ever had anywhere. What is in that duck sauce? And like, why can't I find it anywhere? You can order it.
Okay, I might order some of that duck sauce now. That's a good idea.
Joyce Craig, thank you so much for coming on Pod Save America. Good luck in your race for governor.
Where can people go if they want to help out? Joycecraig.org. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here.
This is a critical race. And if you can help out with fundraising, it would be tremendously helpful.
All right. Thanks, Mayor Craig.
Good luck. Thank you.
That's our show for today. Thanks so much to Mayor Joyce Craig for joining.
And thanks to Jen for guest hosting. Dan and I will be back in your feed on Friday morning.
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Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari.
Reed Churlin is our executive editor

and Adrian Hill is our executive producer.

The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer

with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis.

Writing support by Hallie Kiefer.

Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming.

Matt DeGroat is our head of production.

Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kirill Pellaviv, and David Toles.
Hey listeners, it's Jon Favre. I want to make sure you know that Slate's award-winning podcast, Slow Burn, is back with a new season titled The Rise of Fox News, hosted by Josh Levin.
This season looks at the early years of the Fox News channel when it went from bumbling to seemingly invincible, the moment Fox really became Fox. During the 2000 election, Fox News would captivate the nation and change the fate of American democracy forever.

And it's a perfect listen leading up to this year's election.

You'll hear from Fox insiders who have never spoken out before,

sharing some shocking details about their time at Fox News,

and you'll hear from the activists and comedians like those at The Daily Show

who tried to stop it.

Trust me, you do not want to miss this season.

That's Slow Burn, The Rise of Fox News.

Follow and listen now wherever you get your podcasts.