Biden Shifts Into Thigh Gear

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Speaker 5 Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Favreau.

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Speaker 5 Tommy is, uh, Tommy is in DC because he left something something at the White House.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And he's on vacation.
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Speaker 5 On today's show, Republicans set a date for the Iowa caucuses and the sprint to January begins. Ron DeSantis and Chris Christie try out different lines of attack on Donald Trump.

Speaker 5 And President Biden takes on his two biggest political challenges: the economy and his age.

Speaker 5 Then, Delaware congressional candidate Sarah McBride chats with Lovett about her campaign and her chance to make history as Congress's first openly trans representative. But first,

Speaker 5 big news. Big news.
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Speaker 5 All right, let's get to the news. Iowa Republicans have chosen a date for the first contest of the 2024 election.
The caucuses will be held on Monday, January 15th.

Speaker 5 That's also Martin Luther King Day, a nod to the party's passion for civil rights. And it's also the trial date of E.

Speaker 5 Jean Carroll's second defamation suit against Donald Trump, a nod to the party's passion for women's rights. So that's exciting.

Speaker 5 These caucuses will be earlier than they were in 2020 and 2016 when they were held in February. And that means the New Hampshire primary will likely take place on January 23rd, eight days afterwards.

Speaker 5 And then there will be a full month before the South Carolina primary on February 24th.

Speaker 5 Trump campaigned in Iowa over the weekend where he hit Ron DeSantis on his ethanol record and stopped by a dairy queen for what was apparently the first time in his life. Let's listen.

Speaker 7 I'm proud to be the most pro-farmer president that you've ever had in the White House.

Speaker 8 Every Iowan also needs to know that Ron DeSantis totally despises Iowa ethanol and ethanol generally.

Speaker 9 Everybody wants a blizzard.

Speaker 9 What the hell is a blizzard?

Speaker 5 He ordered a blizzard.

Speaker 5 Before we get to the serious stuff, did you want to defend Donald Trump for not knowing what a blizzard is? Yes, I do.

Speaker 6 Okay. I do want to defend Donald Trump on this one.

Speaker 5 Why is that? I'll tell you why.

Speaker 6 It's not a New York thing. It's not a Long Island thing.

Speaker 5 We don't. There was.
What is wrong with you people?

Speaker 6 Oh, okay. Yeah.
No, yeah. Nothing great about New York.

Speaker 6 You're from Boston.

Speaker 5 Do you know how many dairy queens we have? I'm sure it's a lot. There was like two in North Reading.
And we're a town of like 10,000 people.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's where you have your weddings and funerals.

Speaker 6 We just don't have them.

Speaker 6 When I was growing up on Long Island, we didn't have dairy queens. I didn't know what it was.
I think they're there now. There was one in Manhattan.
That's gone.

Speaker 6 There is one Dairy Queen in the five boroughs right now, and it's at the Staten Island Ferry Terminal, which is, I think, below Yoga Studio and Lesbian Bar on Places Trump Ghosts.

Speaker 6 Like, so no, he doesn't know what a fucking blizzard is.

Speaker 5 Does he not travel the country? The man loves fast food. He loves chains.
Sure. Sure.

Speaker 5 He's eating a lot of money.

Speaker 6 I think that I've earned some credibility on this issue as someone with the eating habits of a Midwestern Republican whose wife cries because he won't go to the doctor.

Speaker 5 But that is precisely why it's so appalling. Yeah.
No, look.

Speaker 6 You should know better. I should know better too.

Speaker 5 You could recite the Cheesecake Factory menu by heart. I really could.
I really could. We went to Culver's.
You knew your way around Culver's when we were in Wisconsin. I did.

Speaker 6 I felt like a real expert.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So you should get some blizzards.
Yeah, anyway. Anyway,

Speaker 5 everyone was also sharing a Biden tweet from 2019 where Biden was in a Dairy Queen and he knew what a blizzard was. And he took the blizzard, he tipped it upside down, which is what you do.

Speaker 5 Yeah, that's apparently what the people do. Then he was offering it to everyone.
But Donald Trump.

Speaker 6 I think it's great that Donald Trump and Joe Biden are both two old guys who've had extremely weird lives, but then can like try to do relatable stuff. They both do relatable stuff well.

Speaker 5 I think that Joe Biden has had a less weird life than Donald Trump in terms of like regular people stuff. I will say that.

Speaker 5 That's not just being partisan. I actually think he's at a much more.

Speaker 5 I wouldn't even say that about Barack Obama. Right, right, right.
But like Joe Biden, yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So anyway, let's talk about Iowa.
So Trump lost Iowa to Ted Cruz in 2016.

Speaker 5 I remember Trump lost Iowa in 2016. I had forgotten until I was prepping for this that it was to Ted Cruz.
Ted Cruz won something.

Speaker 6 Isn't that weird? Yes, but he sort of, it was,

Speaker 6 I believe like it wasn't like a clean win. It wasn't like we knew right away.
It was like, it got kind of like.

Speaker 5 It wasn't like a Shadow App win or anything. No, no, no.

Speaker 6 Not as bad as a Shadow App win. Not as bad bad as what we did to help Puta Judge lose to Bernie, I believe, is what happened.

Speaker 5 I don't remember what we did.

Speaker 6 I don't remember what we did.

Speaker 6 But yeah, Ted Cruz won Iowa, and the momentum made him, as we all remember, unstoppable.

Speaker 5 So Trump lost Iowa, and then he steamrolled the rest of the early states on the way to the nomination. How important do you think the state is for him this time around?

Speaker 6 Sort of a tough question to answer. We'll talk a little about the Harry Enton story about Iowa versus New Hampshire.

Speaker 6 It just, right now, if you look at the polling and the polling at the state level is like pretty spare right now.

Speaker 5 It's like hard to rely on.

Speaker 6 But right now, if you look at it, you can kind of squint your eyes. And what you see is Trump is dominating nationally.
He's above 50. And maybe in Iowa, New Hampshire, he's also dominating.

Speaker 6 And some polls above 50. But maybe there's like a little bit of weakness based on campaigning.
Now, beyond that, can you say that Iowa is going to matter, New Hampshire is going to matter?

Speaker 6 I just, I don't think we know right now.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think there's two schools of thought on Iowa.

Speaker 5 One is if Trump wins that state after losing it in 2016 and having been the frontrunner nationally for the whole race and having been basically the closest thing to an incumbent, he's like a quasi-incumbent, then the momentum makes him pretty tough to beat.

Speaker 5 But I was thinking about this, and this could also happen. Trump wins Iowa.
Everyone else in the race, but maybe the second or third place finisher drops out after Iowa.

Speaker 5 And then people start thinking, oh, you know, Trump's going to win the nomination. New Hampshire does what New Hampshire often does and does the opposite of Iowa.
And then

Speaker 5 I didn't realize now there's going to be a full month between New Hampshire and South Carolina. So at that point, then Trump has multiple court dates.

Speaker 5 And the media at that point gets bored of the, okay, Trump won Iowa. Maybe Trump won New Hampshire or maybe he got got a little, you know, someone got a little closer in New Hampshire.

Speaker 5 Now there's a whole month between South Carolina. Now, I do think at that point, like, who's strong enough to beat Trump in South Carolina? That's where it gets tricky.

Speaker 5 But I do think that month gets, that month is trickier for Trump.

Speaker 6 Yeah, but the point you made in the middle there about his legal troubles, it's just...

Speaker 5 Then everyone gets the Republicans get all.

Speaker 6 Well, it's more that like, yes, there are some external factors that might weaken Trump in ways that are outside of his control.

Speaker 6 But in the end, the result will be less about the tactics of what was the sequence, you know, which candidates mounted a fight in New Hampshire versus Iowa versus South Carolina and more about like the underlying conditions of the race in which at some point something happened that made Trump weaker than he is right now.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Well, let's talk about that Harry Inton piece you mentioned.

Speaker 5 He's an analyst at CNN, just wrote a piece arguing that Trump's opponents might have more luck in New Hampshire than Iowa because the data shows voters there are more moderate, more college educated, and wealthier than they are in Iowa.

Speaker 5 What did you think of Harry's argument?

Speaker 6 No bad ideas in a brainstorm.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean, look,

Speaker 6 so

Speaker 6 the challenge there is it's like Donald Trump starts in a much stronger position now than he was in 2016.

Speaker 5 I agree.

Speaker 6 If you look at the polling out of New Hampshire in 2016, by July of 2015, roughly where we are right now, Trump was starting to just dominate in those polls roughly in the 30s.

Speaker 6 He stayed there, did not move till election day, in which he got in the 30s. Now,

Speaker 6 John Kasich, we all remember him, and that was his best and final of an Ohio.

Speaker 5 Yeah, the next time we saw him was in the Democratic National Convention video.

Speaker 6 So he was on his personal journey. But so you have to look at that and say, okay,

Speaker 6 I think the point Harry's making seems right, which is

Speaker 6 Trump's coalition has shifted.

Speaker 6 The group of people he put together to win in 2016 will look different than the group of people he will put together in 2024. The mix will shift more conservative.

Speaker 6 But the problem is that shift belies strength across the board and across these categories. And so then you look at what happened in 2016, you say, all right, well,

Speaker 6 Ted Cruz, where did he do well? He did well in your places like Idaho and Kansas and Iowa, the place that kind of drew out the more conservative and evangelical voters.

Speaker 6 Now, you're starting from saying that Trump's going to do better with those people, right?

Speaker 6 He's going to put together a coalition of some of his voters now, most of them say, plus some of the Ted Cruz voters. That leaves an opening, an opening for what?

Speaker 6 Someone's going to cobble together people that have left Trump plus the Kasich group. So then you're going to start looking where? You're going to look to New Hampshire, Massachusetts,

Speaker 6 Illinois,

Speaker 5 except for New Hampshire, by the time you get to those states, it's like

Speaker 5 it's over by then.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 I just don't understand how the math is going to work

Speaker 6 when

Speaker 6 maybe there is some weakness there in groups that he'd been strong with in the past, but his overall domination, just it has to change.

Speaker 6 Something in the current makeup of

Speaker 6 the Republican electorate has to shift in a big way, in a way that is bigger than tactically choosing between Iowa and New Hampshire, which right now we're kind of moving together anyway.

Speaker 5 Yeah, so Harry makes two points, right, of note. Iowa hasn't been good at picking Republican nominees in primary season since 1980 that didn't feature a Republican incumbent.

Speaker 5 The Iowa winner went on to win the nomination only twice, Dole in 96 and W in 2000, though notably in both cases, they had been the frontrunner before Iowa, which Trump is.

Speaker 5 New Hampshire in the same time period picked five out of seven. But here's the thing about the New Hampshire electorate.
It is more moderate than Iowa. It is more college-educated.

Speaker 5 All those stats are right. Even if you look at polls right now, I think there was a St.
Anthony's poll from late June that showed like Christie is in third now at 5% or 6% in New Hampshire.

Speaker 5 And Christie's winning among, or Christie's doing a lot better among more moderate voters, among Democrats, who might vote in the Republican primary, among college-educated voters.

Speaker 5 That still is like leaving him at 5% to 6% for now. But then I was thinking about New Hampshire.
Think about 2022 in the Senate race.

Speaker 5 New Hampshire Republican voters nominated crazy Don Boldick over Chuck Morse.

Speaker 5 Boldick, for everyone who forgets this, was an election denier who wanted to abolish the FBI, called Chris Sununu, the very popular Republican governor of New Hampshire, a Chinese communist sympathizer.

Speaker 5 Boldick had no money, didn't run a single single ad on television. And meanwhile, Chuck Morse focused most of his attacks on Maggie Hassen, not on Boldick.

Speaker 5 And his super PAC still ran millions and millions of dollars of ads against Boldick, and Boldick won.

Speaker 5 So clearly, the Republican, now look, the electorate, the Republican electorate in a midterm in New Hampshire is probably more conservative than in a presidential primary, particularly because I think independents and Democrats can vote in the New Hampshire Republican primary.

Speaker 5 So that could screw with it a little bit. But there is a Republican electorate in New Hampshire that is all in for election-denying crazy people.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and you kind of like, you kind of sort of like, you know, go across like New England into upstate New York, and you see like, this is what Elise Stefanik has been grappling with in upstate New York.

Speaker 6 There is a Trumpy

Speaker 6 Northeast Republican that is all in on this.

Speaker 5 And they're not evangelical Christians, right? They're not like social conservatives in that way. I mean, some of them are, but it's Trumpy in a different way.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 And look, and Don Boldek did not beat Chuck Morse by a lot, but he beat him by a couple points. He beat him by enough.

Speaker 6 And again, Trump overall is stronger today than he was in 2016. And so what you're saying is not just that what you're seeing is a weakness in groups

Speaker 6 that he was strong in the past. You have to find so much weakness that it overcomes the advantages he's already bringing to the table.

Speaker 6 Because does anyone think right now that if the election was held in Idaho or Kansas, that Donald Trump is not going to pick up all those evangelical voters that in the past he lost?

Speaker 6 Even like, there's very little good polling out there, but you go to Florida, you don't find good DeSantis polls. You know, you go everywhere.

Speaker 6 His, his, it's the kind of like robustness of Trump's coalition that I think is making this a little, people are afraid to say it's sort of uneventful, but that's how it feels.

Speaker 5 Yeah, which is why, like, Harry's point about the difference in the electorates between the two states demographically is correct. Yes.

Speaker 5 But if you are a Republican running against Donald Trump and you have to figure out a strategy,

Speaker 5 to me, it makes more sense that your strategy is I have to stop him in Iowa, because if Trump loses in Iowa, then maybe some of those Trumpy New Hampshire voters are like, oh, well, Ron DeSantis just won Iowa.

Speaker 5 Maybe he's a winner now. We've been calling him a loser for a year, but maybe now he's a winner and maybe Trump's not the right guy to do this.

Speaker 5 And, you know, he's going to be on trial and maybe there's distractions and blah, blah, blah. And so I think

Speaker 5 that's their best hope of stopping Trump and then hoping that in New Hampshire they pick up some of those voters. Right.

Speaker 6 But I think that's all true. But it's just where we are right now, it could obviously change, is you would not say right now that where this is being won or lost is on tactics.

Speaker 6 Like, oh, if only it started in New Hampshire

Speaker 6 versus Iowa. Trump has to be fundamentally weakened as a candidate, either by his own failings or by some outside force, say legal, that he does not control of.

Speaker 6 And one of these people has to catch fire. Both of those things has to happen.
Right now, neither one's happening. So it doesn't matter where you fucking campaign.

Speaker 5 Well, no, I mean, like, of all the things you just mentioned, the only thing you can control as a candidate, if you're one of these other Republican candidates, is your own strategy and your own tactics, right?

Speaker 5 Well, it's the message, right?

Speaker 6 The story you're telling.

Speaker 5 But also where you put your resources, sure, right? Like, where are you going to run most of your ads? Where are you going to spend all the money on advertising?

Speaker 5 What are you going to say about Donald Trump? How hard are you going to go with Donald Trump? All those decisions will lead you to either focus heavily on Iowa or New Hampshire.

Speaker 5 I mean, it was like us in 08, right? We were like, if we don't stop Hillary in Iowa, there's no Obama campaign. So like everything goes into Iowa.

Speaker 6 Of course. But what I'm getting at is none of these campaigns, none of these campaigns have figured out a story to tell in Iowa or a story to tell in New Hampshire.

Speaker 6 Well, that's so just before we've gotten to, hey, where do we want to put our money? It doesn't right now, they are so far from having any hope of

Speaker 6 getting any traction in either state. That's like,

Speaker 6 let's not worry about tactics right now. You're all foundering.

Speaker 5 Well, let's talk about the stories that they're telling. There's a new mailpiece being sent to Iowans

Speaker 5 back in Iowa from a group called Advance Our Values.

Speaker 5 The mailpiece thanks Trump for standing up for LGBTQ rights. It calls him a...

Speaker 5 a transgender trailblazer and notes that he got a standing ovation for affirming gay rights at a Mar-a-Lago log cabin Republicans event.

Speaker 5 It seems like from looking at the mail piece it's like a a less homophobic homoerotic version of uh the desantis ad that we talked about last week why i'm so conflicted about it do you think it's any more effective first of all love a dirty trick that makes trump seem cool as hell that that is awesome

Speaker 5 so the piece is so you just go google it because it's just like

Speaker 5 so ham-fisted rainbow behind trump and trump's like thumbs up

Speaker 6 i don't know who this is for other than that's i don't know who's for i don't know who this is for also this is like the longest tale of a stupid fucking 2016 news cycle.

Speaker 6 Remember, there was that news cycle where Trump was going to be pro-gay and that was a whole story. And everyone's like, no, he's not.
He's been anti-gay marriage since the year 2000.

Speaker 6 And so it's the longest tale since that news cycle.

Speaker 6 We just went through, what is it, a week or a week and a half ago, his Supreme Court handed yet another victory to the right on the anti-discrimination law in Colorado.

Speaker 6 I don't know who's persuaded by this. As you've pointed out, this thing's not being won on policy right now.

Speaker 5 I don't even know who,

Speaker 5 which Republican voter is like, oh, the Supreme Court handed, thanks to Donald Trump, the Supreme Court handed us a victory because

Speaker 5 now someone can't get a website for their gay marriage.

Speaker 6 Well, the point being, no one is consuming any news that's saying Donald Trump is pro-gay.

Speaker 6 I don't know what hyper-engaged Iowa voter who's trying to figure out who to vote for in July, six months before anybody votes, is being persuaded by a matter like this. So it just feels

Speaker 5 silly. I don't know who, forget about hyper-engaged voters.
I don't know who just like woke up yesterday from a five-year coma would believe that Donald Trump is a transgender trailblazer.

Speaker 5 It just doesn't really

Speaker 6 pass the I like the dirty tricks where they say election day is Wednesday.

Speaker 5 Don't forget to show up.

Speaker 5 So there's another group called Win It Back.

Speaker 5 The people running it have some ties to Club for Growth. This group is launching a multi-million dollar ad campaign in Iowa and South Carolina with a different anti-Trump message.

Speaker 5 Let's listen to the TV ad.

Speaker 10 I'm not not really a fan of what's going on right now. I mean, the Democrats are just unbelievable.

Speaker 5 It's a mess.

Speaker 5 It's a hot mess. I love Donald Trump.

Speaker 10 I love what he did. Once he got in, I thought it was a breath of fresh air.
He was attacked all the time, and it seemed like, you know, it just seemed non-stop. The drama, it affected my family.

Speaker 10 I mean, you know, with my own sister, I didn't get invited to her Thanksgiving after a while. He's got so many distractions.
The constant fighting something every day.

Speaker 10 And I'm not sure he can focus on moving the country forward. The election is really important because we're going in the wrong direction.
I mean, we definitely need somebody that can freaking win.

Speaker 10 I think you'd probably lose that bet if you voted for Trump. You want somebody that's smart, who actually knows how to build teams, to solve issues, focus on the issues that really need to be fixed.

Speaker 5 Winnett Backpack is responsible for the content of this ad. What a cuck that guy is.

Speaker 5 What do you think about that message?

Speaker 6 It reminds me of one of like those

Speaker 6 dog trainers,

Speaker 6 the dogs that have like, that are just like huddled in the corner, scared of all people.

Speaker 5 They're like, hey, come on, come on over here. It's okay.

Speaker 6 You'll be okay. Come on over.

Speaker 5 You're right.

Speaker 6 I'm okay. I'm not dangerous.
I'm all right. Come on over.
Think about it. Think about it.
It's

Speaker 6 at least as an argument.

Speaker 6 I do think it's like you feel the grappling with what the candidates are all grappling with, which is in order for anyone to make any headway, some of this has to be made, some argument has to be made against Trump to people that love Trump.

Speaker 6 And they're at least experimenting with like,

Speaker 6 even all of the words are clearly just so carefully chosen to be a little bit sanded off, sound a little bit normal, to try to find a normal vernacular for discussing why Trump is weak.

Speaker 6 So in that sense, I think

Speaker 6 it's the argument that they need to be making.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's funny because I totally agree with that.

Speaker 5 And I think it is probably the best message about Trump for a Republican audience of voters who are open to supporting another Republican other than Trump.

Speaker 5 And so if you are someone, and I'm sure this ad was made by people who listen to focus groups of Republican voters who are not like diehard Trump people and are definitely voting for Trump

Speaker 5 and ad makers and consultants and all the rest. And so I think it's all particular.

Speaker 5 But it almost, the ad, as good of a message as it is, almost underscores the bigger problem, which is that like you can't beat something with nothing.

Speaker 5 And there's no, like, you need an alternative to what that guy's saying that is appealing to those voters. And all, all that he offered in the ad is

Speaker 5 someone who can put together a team. Someone who puts together a team and focus on issues

Speaker 5 and not drama, which is like, again, these are all the issues that people have with Trump, right? Like he, it's chaotic. He fired all these people in the White House.
They all turned on him.

Speaker 5 Everything was drama all the time. He wasn't focused on it, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But like, so then what's the alternative?

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I didn't even get that.
I think that's all true. But I was, what I was stuck on is, okay, great.
You're slowly easing Republican voters into an argument, like a, like a bath.

Speaker 6 Is there enough time for this level of subtlety? Like, they're trying to like soften this group of people. And it feels like this was the work that they just did not do for years, right?

Speaker 6 This is trying to undo six and a half or more years of just total obsequiousness and a refusal to make this kind of argument.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 just I mean, it's tough because

Speaker 5 I don't think you can undo that with Donald Trump's an asshole, right? Because not that they would say that, but something like that. Because

Speaker 5 clearly Republican voters love Donald Trump.

Speaker 5 And even if they're going to back another Republican for the nomination, it's not going to be because they suddenly decided, oh, wait, we hate Trump, actually.

Speaker 5 You know, it's going to be like, it's going to be what that guy says. It's giving people a permission structure, which that guy did at the beginning, which is like, oh, I love Donald Trump too.

Speaker 5 And I liked what he didn't get office. But then it got a little crazy.
But it's still, it's still, like you said, it's still not sharp enough.

Speaker 6 Well, I think that like. If an argument like this is going to work, it's not going to be just because of ads like this.
It's going to be because of a of

Speaker 6 and this is why I think the ad is good. It is designed to replicate conversations they think people are having, like real conversations that people are having in the world.

Speaker 6 Now, those conversations are going on. They really are, right? You hear about them.

Speaker 6 Clearly, this is born of focus groups that had a group of Republican, mostly Trump voters or a mix of Trump voters who talked about it in this way. And they're trying to push that conversation.

Speaker 6 But, you know, I think that we just don't know.

Speaker 6 Is there any kind of momentum to that? Can that take on a life of its own and create space for another candidate? Yeah.

Speaker 5 and then and then one of them has to actually say why they should be president i was gonna say yeah and the key is that you need a you need a candidate yeah

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Speaker 5 So let's talk about the Republicans who are ostensibly trying to beat Donald Trump in the primary.

Speaker 5 Ron DeSantis' campaign just announced they raised $20 million in his first six weeks as a candidate, while his super PAC has raised $130 million since March, though some of that was transferred from his time as from the Super PAC when he was governor.

Speaker 5 The New York Times also had a story over the weekend about how Iowa's very popular governor, like very, very popular with Republicans especially, Kim Reynolds, who has said that she will not endorse in the primary, is being viewed by Trump's team as neutral in name only when it comes to Ron DeSantis.

Speaker 5 Now, of course, after this New York Times article, then Donald Trump today was was truthing up a storm about how Kim Reynolds sucks. So not really subtle,

Speaker 5 what Donald Trump thinks of Kim Reynolds.

Speaker 6 I think you literally just saw the story.

Speaker 5 Despite all this, Trump has still raised about $15 million more than Ron DeSantis over a longer period of time, but still, has a lot more endorsements and is beating him by double digits in every state poll and national poll.

Speaker 5 So when Maria Barbaromo asked DeSantis about his struggling campaign over the weekend, here's what he said.

Speaker 18 But here's this weekend's headline from the Politico playbook. Failure to launch Florida Governor Ron DeSantis' campaign to topple Donald Trump has stalled.

Speaker 18 We are way behind, says a top DeSantis PAC official sounding the alarm. What happened?

Speaker 19 Oh, Maria, these are narratives. The media does not want me to be the nominee.
I think that's very, very clear. Why? Because they know I'll beat Biden.

Speaker 19 But even more importantly, they know I will actually actually deliver on all these things.

Speaker 5 First of all, I think we need to clip the laugh

Speaker 5 and just play it every time we talk about Ron DeSantis.

Speaker 6 It's like if Goofy had a book burning.

Speaker 5 Does that make any sense, anybody?

Speaker 5 There was a Disney joke in there, too. Somewhere.

Speaker 5 But anyway, we'll figure it out. Is that believable at all?

Speaker 5 Is Ron DeSantis' spin?

Speaker 6 I think his spin that

Speaker 6 the media doesn't want him to win. The media doesn't want him to have his, he's going to succeed if he wins is obviously ridiculous.

Speaker 6 But where I do, like, I do think he is right, it must be extremely frustrating to be trying to make a case against Donald Trump, and every question is about why you can't and won't make an effective case against Donald Trump.

Speaker 6 Like, that is a shitty doom loop for any candidate to be in, though

Speaker 5 he needs, like, that is the environment.

Speaker 6 That is what is happening. People are following around waiting for him to seem weird and fuck up.

Speaker 5 And he's in that doom loop because he has been making shitty arguments about Donald Trump.

Speaker 6 And is quite strange.

Speaker 5 Also, I mean, I was thinking back to, again, how many interviews like this Barack Obama had in 2007.

Speaker 5 And the difference is, the part of our spin that was a little more believable is that in those state polls, particularly in Iowa, not so much in New Hampshire, but in Iowa, we were a lot closer.

Speaker 5 to Hillary than Ron DeSantis is to Donald Trump right now. And I think if DeSantis, and

Speaker 5 it's it's getting late to say it's still early,

Speaker 5 but I guess you could say that. If he was closer in some of these state polls, maybe he could, you know, maybe it's a little more believable.
And if people didn't just, just didn't know him yet.

Speaker 5 Well, but his name ID is so high.

Speaker 5 And his favorability rating, which I thought would help him among Republican voters, is also quite high.

Speaker 5 His favorability rating nationally is bad, which doesn't bode well for his electability argument anymore.

Speaker 5 But among Republican voters, it's looking like they like Ron DeSantis just fine, but they're just not sold on him as the candidate.

Speaker 5 How much do you think it matters that DeSantis does seem to have quite a bit of money and might have the quiet support of Kim Reynolds?

Speaker 6 John, I think we all remember how big of an influence Terry Branstad had on the 2016 primary.

Speaker 5 You remember what he said, right?

Speaker 6 Why don't you tell the people what Terry Bransted said in 2016?

Speaker 5 I barely remember Terry Branstad.

Speaker 6 You don't remember the legendary influence of former Iowa Republican governor Terry Branstad?

Speaker 5 I also didn't know that Trump made him ambassador to China.

Speaker 6 Yes, Trump did make him ambassador to China, which I didn't realize either, which is strange. Well, I think, so

Speaker 6 right before the Iowa caucuses, Terry Bransted was asked, do you think Iowa should vote against Ted Cruz because of his position on ethanol? And he said yes.

Speaker 6 So he didn't endorse anybody, but he endorsed voting against Ted Cruz, who won the Iowa caucus.

Speaker 5 So, you know,

Speaker 6 the influence of an endorsement, even from a popular governor,

Speaker 6 maybe it helps.

Speaker 5 Also, let me tell you what kim reynolds is going to do here

Speaker 5 kim reynolds is maybe she's supporting desantis right now she's not an idiot she's not going to come out and say she supports desantis when he is shitting the bed if desantis catches fire and is suddenly very close to trump in the polls as we get close to ayacus maybe she shows some political courage and comes out and endorses desantis but she's not going to do it now so he's not going to have her support unless something changes and it's not her endorsement that's going to make something change no so i guess like what is he he's getting restaurant recs right Like, what's he getting from this?

Speaker 5 So I don't know that that helps that much.

Speaker 6 What do you think about the money? You know, national ad campaigns can't save terrible movies that soon bomb. And the money would matter.

Speaker 6 Look, Ron DeSantis, he is a fundamentally unappealing person, but his argument's bad.

Speaker 6 So, you know, you got to get one of those things right. Look, we all, like, there have been charismatic politicians

Speaker 6 and they're not always the best speakers. Donald Trump, you would say, is one of them.
Joe Biden can be one of them, but they don't always make the best argument.

Speaker 6 And then there are politicians that are super mild-mannered and nerdy and kind of not the most charismatic people, but they're methodical and disciplined and smart and effective.

Speaker 6 Like, what are we getting at? What does Ron DeSantis bring to the table here?

Speaker 5 I don't care how much money you have. No, I think the money ensures that he can stay in the race for as long as he wants to embarrass himself.

Speaker 5 So, because it's going to, there's a lot of these candidates that either drop out before Iowa because they just didn't have the money or they don't do well in Iowa and then they drop out.

Speaker 5 You have as much money as Ron DeSantis. You could probably stay in for a little while, right? When is Florida?

Speaker 6 When is the Florida vote?

Speaker 5 I think it's probably

Speaker 5 either Super Tuesday or after. But so it's either March or after that.
So, yeah.

Speaker 5 I think even before that, I think once, again, this month between New Hampshire and South Carolina, I think once South Carolina and then Nevada happen, you're sort of in

Speaker 5 unless, unless some, like you said, unless something fundamentally changes and suddenly it's a neck and neck race between Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis, in which case it's a long primary, which, you know, it could happen.

Speaker 5 Unless you're in that scenario, then like I said, Ron DeSantis.

Speaker 6 You're not sticking around, which in this case, having a giant war chest won't matter anymore.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And remember, Jeb Bush's super PAC spent $100 million.

Speaker 5 $100 million.

Speaker 6 And just, it is amazing to think back to 2016 and look at that and say, man, if only Republicans had an alternative as charismatic

Speaker 5 as Jeb Bush. No, it's like if Jeb Bush

Speaker 5 had the same level of charisma, but was a bigger asshole.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 That's right. He's a, yeah, okay.
Okay. Yeah, sure.
That's what Ron DeSantis says so far. Yeah, I agree with that.

Speaker 5 Now, Chris Christie, our boy Chris Christie, he continues to take a different approach to Trump than DeSantis or the rest of the field. Here he is on Fox News responding to Trump's Iowa event.

Speaker 20 He doesn't care about the American people.

Speaker 20 He lied about the farm deal with the Chinese. They haven't even complied with a quarter of what they agreed to Donald Trump to do in terms of buying soybeans and other things from the farmers in Iowa.

Speaker 20 And he spent the rest of the time talking about his own indictment. This is not somebody who's fighting for the American people and their future.
This is all about his ego.

Speaker 20 What he cares about the most is trying to undo the loss he had to Joe Biden in 2020.

Speaker 20 But since he's a three-time loser, having lost in 2018 the House of Representatives, lost the White House and the Senate in 2020, and in 2022, he wound up losing two more governorships, another seat in the Senate, and we barely won the House by five votes when, in fact, you you know, you had a president whose popularity was at 35%.

Speaker 20 So he's in this for himself and himself only.

Speaker 6 You could guess that at Messenger's box.

Speaker 5 Here is what's interesting about that to me because we just talked about that ad

Speaker 5 from

Speaker 5 the win-it-back Super PAC ad, which we both decided was not quite sharp enough. Chris Christie is doing the opposite of that.

Speaker 5 He does not have DeSantis' money polling. Not Not that it's that enviable, but he's still not polling like DeSantis or endorsements.
But do you think his message,

Speaker 5 now that he has a story, he has a message, could it ultimately help him vault ahead of DeSantis?

Speaker 6 Well, look,

Speaker 6 it's actually the same criticism we had of that ad, even though this is a sharper argument. It is an argument against Donald Trump.

Speaker 6 It is not an argument for Chris Christie, one of his chief lackeys and toadies,

Speaker 6 until the moment Trump personally tried to fucking kill him. So will Republicans hear what Chris Christie says? I don't know.
Will it lead to people to say, and therefore he's the person I want?

Speaker 6 You hear an argument like that from Chris Christie and you find it compelling. I don't know why that leads you to vote for Chris Christie versus Ron DeSantis.
It makes you look for an alternative.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 6 whether or not it's just, look, if what Chris Christie is saying catches any traction at all, it is an open question as to whether it leads people to come to him or just lead people to look to anyone but Trump.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think if Chris Christie is truly on a kamikaze mission and nothing else, then

Speaker 5 that's that, right? If Chris Christie genuinely believes that he could, there's a chance he could win this thing,

Speaker 5 then the only strategy I can imagine here is, all right, I will kick the shit out of Donald Trump because I need to do that, number one, to make the argument. And number two, I need to get attention.

Speaker 5 And that'll get him the attention. And then once you get the attention, then you start making the case for yourself.
That's the only strategy that I can think of there.

Speaker 5 The problem for him, of course, is his unfavorables with Republican voters are quite high. Except in New Hampshire, he's doing a little bit better because of that electorate, as we talked about.

Speaker 6 And because he's there. He's really tearing a step.
But by the way, that's what he did in 2016. He lived in New Hampshire.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 5 55% of Republican voters in New Hampshire think the election was stolen from Donald Trump. This is back to our New Hampshire not-so-moderate conversation.

Speaker 5 So if you have that support, or at least you have that many people as election deniers in New Hampshire and you're Chris Christie, now you see the, this is, this is the conundrum that they all face, even if they are all running perfect campaigns and are great candidates with stories and whatever else, is that they are dealing with an electorate where the majority of the Republican electorate loves Donald Trump, thinks he did great as president, and thinks he actually won the last election.

Speaker 5 And if that's what they think, then why would they go for someone else?

Speaker 5 I mean, that's the problem. Now, I mean, and in the NBC poll nationally, Christy's favorability is among Republican voters, 13% favorable, 43% unfavorable.
Yeah. So that's what's tough.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean, you have to think, okay,

Speaker 6 you're counting on the fact. So you say, all right, let's say Trump is, you say Trump is sub 50 in New Hampshire.

Speaker 6 You're working with a little bit over a majority that is still undecided between the alternatives.

Speaker 6 And in fairness to people that believe there's a possibility, and the same way we're saying DeSantis' name idea is high, Donald Trump's name idea is 100%.

Speaker 6 So if there are people in New Hampshire being asked who they're going to vote for and they're not saying Donald Trump, that means something, right?

Speaker 6 Very easy to say you're going to vote for Donald Trump right now. They're not.
Then you say, okay, yes, a majority of people in the Republican primary now say that the election was stolen.

Speaker 6 but they also have been trained by their boss to perform loyalty on this question. This is a shibboleth for demonstrating your fealty to the Republican cause.

Speaker 6 And that those people, while they may say that and even maybe think that, it's not the most important issue to them. The most important issue to them is winning.

Speaker 6 And so then the case has to be from Chris Christie: not only is Donald Trump weak, not only does he not deliver, not only is he going to lose, I'm the one that's going to win. And here's how I do it.

Speaker 6 I'm a more charismatic, interesting, and popular, and moderate, seeming Ron DeSantis.

Speaker 5 And like, let's do Chris Christie's fantasy scenario, the best case for Chris Christie, right?

Speaker 5 So Ron DeSantis, his campaign just collapses, and we see that in Iowa, right? And Donald Trump wins Iowa.

Speaker 5 Ron DeSantis either comes in second or third, maybe even worse, and everyone else is out of money.

Speaker 5 And so you get the Tim Scotts and the Nikki Haleys, maybe they drop out at this point, or maybe they're out of money or whatever else.

Speaker 5 And then you go to New Hampshire, and now Chris Christie's saying, okay,

Speaker 5 Donald Trump, me and Donald Trump one-on-one.

Speaker 5 And somehow Chris Christie pulls off a win in New Hampshire.

Speaker 6 Or Or he gets, or it's close, right? Or he does bet, like, so in 20, in 2016, Iowa, yes, Ted Cruz wins Iowa, but you know, it was by a couple points with Trump and Rubio right behind.

Speaker 6 They go to New Hampshire, and it's not just that, yes, Trump only gets, so Trump gets 35% of New Hampshire.

Speaker 6 Not exactly a blowout, but the nearest person is John Kasich, who's almost 20 points behind him, with Cruz and Rubio barely breaking 10.

Speaker 6 It's as close as it's a, Donald Trump defeated them after losing in Iowa, which gave him momentum going from there. But if you can imagine Trump wins out of Iowa, he goes to New Hampshire.

Speaker 6 There's a surprising finish for one other person like Chris Christie. Then there's a whole period of time to campaign before they end up in South Carolina.
But that's the problem.

Speaker 6 But it's South Carolina.

Speaker 5 Let's just pretend. I'm gaming it out.
I'm gaming it out. Let's just pretend Chris Christie wins New Hampshire, that he doesn't even come in second.

Speaker 5 He's the winner of the New Hampshire primary, and then he's going to go to South Carolina and face that electorate, which is like,

Speaker 5 that's not a Chris Christie electorate.

Speaker 6 Yeah, they're booing Lindsey Graham at Trump rally.

Speaker 5 it's not it's not his space i just so that's this is why it's tough now let's go back to ron de santis so let's say ron de santis just starts talking like chris christie

Speaker 5 how does that work out

Speaker 6 well there is something about desantis is trying

Speaker 6 he is desantis is a smart person uh it's the one thing i guess he has he's trying to put together an argument that is against Trump that implies and then gives him a chance to make the argument he has for himself, right?

Speaker 6 The Chris Christie argument right now is just pure anti-Trump. He doesn't ever come back to, if he does, it doesn't get pick up.

Speaker 6 But the core of his argument is just anti-Trump and it doesn't really reflect well on him. DeSantis' anti-Trump argument is meant to be a mirror of his pro-DeSantis argument.

Speaker 6 So, yeah, I mean, I guess if DeSantis seemed a little bit more folksy and charismatic and off the cuff while making a slightly sharper version, that's still,

Speaker 6 that still was...

Speaker 6 kind of trying to make the argument for what, how great he is and how well he's done in Florida. It couldn't be worse than what DeSantis is doing right now.

Speaker 5 What DeSantis is doing right now is running a version of the Cruz campaign from 2016 when Ted Cruz was like, Donald Trump's not the real conservative, social conservative.

Speaker 5 He's this Manhattan billionaire, right? And I'm the real conservative and I'm the evangelical. And DeSantis is trying to run to Donald Trump's right on that.

Speaker 5 And I think that's dumb because I don't think that Republican voters are voting based on policy or even ideology at this point, traditional social conservative ideology.

Speaker 5 I think what Christie has that's smart in his message is that Donald Trump is in it for himself.

Speaker 5 And part of that, like, you know, it's the drama,

Speaker 5 which the guy was getting at in that ad, right? There's too much drama around Trump. There's too much.

Speaker 5 And if I was Ron DeSantis, I would be saying, Donald Trump is in it for himself. And look at me.
Look what I did in Florida. I'm in it for people.
These are the victories that I delivered.

Speaker 5 And this guy only, he only cares about himself. He only cares about his own shit all the time.
He's selfish.

Speaker 5 And I'm actually, you know, going to deliver on stuff for you.

Speaker 5 And as opposed to trying to position himself to Trump's write-on thing, which I just don't think people are going to believe, and I don't necessarily think it's going to work.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I think that's, I think, I think DeSantis, I think it's a little bit more nuanced than that because I think that's one piece of it.

Speaker 6 I think he's trying, and it's not mattering, to kind of just outflank Trump on policy and just take that off the table. I am the true conservative.

Speaker 6 If those are what you, these are the issues you care about, I'm your person. Turns out not a lot of beat on that bone.
But he is also making an argument, does it in the book?

Speaker 6 He was doing it in his thumb speech around not having chaos around get your head down and just getting things done delivering yeah like these are all that's but that's not coming through you're right that that is part of his argument

Speaker 5 it is but it is a yes but his argument now is uh you know trans transgender trailblazer well yeah this is we don't know that i'm sure look at the ad i mean

Speaker 6 the other ad from him yeah yes the other ad from him yes and then there's casey de santis with just this unhinged

Speaker 6 mom's coming for your children they're coming for your children's thing which is just a reminder um

Speaker 6 look we we can disagree on certain things as a country. You can't let a Disney adult within 100 fucking miles of the White House.
That's dangerous.

Speaker 6 It's dangerous. Casey DeSantis.

Speaker 5 This is a video that, for people who don't know, the video that the DeSantis campaign put out, that Casey DeSantis tweeted, that's just all about like, you know, Fauci wanted to forcibly mask our children.

Speaker 5 It's got kids crying with masks on and,

Speaker 5 you know,

Speaker 5 like gay pride parades. And it's very...

Speaker 6 very, it's just, it's very, it's just, you know, it's.

Speaker 5 It's a little over-torqued. Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's a little over-torqued.

Speaker 6 It's like, it's, like, it's anti-trans, anti-gay, anti-science, fash porn, I guess. It's just this very...

Speaker 6 Look,

Speaker 6 she was the one who put out that video that was like on the eighth day, God sent a fighter,

Speaker 6 which is basically saying that

Speaker 6 God, that literally Ron DeSantis is God's gift to us.

Speaker 6 So I would say that

Speaker 5 God's a shitty gift giver. Yeah.
It's like, is there a gift receipt in the bag? God.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 6 I don't think her judgment is often state of the art. No.

Speaker 5 All right, let's talk about our pal Joe Biden. Okay.

Speaker 5 He's in Europe this week for a meeting with King Charles and a NATO summit, neither of which we're going to talk about since it's timed. perfectly with Tommy's vacation.

Speaker 5 But the president did have a busy couple of days before he left. He visited a clean energy manufacturing company in South Carolina, Republican Congressman Joe Wilson's district.
Yeah, that Joe Wilson.

Speaker 5 A company that's adding jobs because of the Inflation Reduction Act that Wilson voted against.

Speaker 5 And Biden got a pretty good laugh when he announced that he'll be visiting another Republican's district soon.

Speaker 8 Since I took office, we've seen over 60 domestic manufacturing announcements all across the solar supply chain. One of the biggest is in Dalton, Georgia.

Speaker 21 You may find it hard to believe, but that's Marjorie Taylor Green's district.

Speaker 21 I'll be there for the groundbreaking.

Speaker 5 What do you think of Biden's strategy of doing events in these districts held by Republicans who voted against various parts of his agenda?

Speaker 6 I'll start by saying one thing that I didn't understand about politics until I moved to DC and started working in politics is how much of

Speaker 6 official Washington, congressional offices, Senate offices, the the White House, how much of it is trying to figure out ways to get the media to talk about policy? Just day in and day out.

Speaker 6 Press releases, events, Chuck Schumer going to a gas station every Sunday. Just

Speaker 6 my favorite example. Just like everybody trying to figure out a way to get coverage on, you know, the stuff that's less fun and less easy to cover than polling and all the rest.

Speaker 6 And this is just a great way to do that. It just, it gets pickup.
It's funny.

Speaker 6 It highlights Republican opposition to very, very popular things. It gets an otherwise politically not interesting trip for reporters to seem more interesting.
So it's like, it's great.

Speaker 5 So I don't think that people, voters generally care, unfortunately, about charges of hypocrisy.

Speaker 6 No.

Speaker 5 Because the idea that, oh, a Republican voted against this bill and then went to the groundbreaking and took credit for the clean energy facility that's getting more money and creating jobs.

Speaker 5 What a fucking surprise. And I think people do that about Democrats too.
Voters are very cynical about politicians in general.

Speaker 5 But I do think that voters care or voters can care about Biden's message that he is helping people

Speaker 5 and creating jobs in places that did not vote for him. And that is a very good contrast to Donald Trump and possibly Ron DeSantis, whose message basically is like, we are running.

Speaker 5 for president of red America and red America only.

Speaker 5 And if you don't vote for us, we're not for you. We're not going to help you out.
Fuck off.

Speaker 5 And Biden is trying to go out there and say, like, you can vote for me. You cannot vote for me.

Speaker 5 I'm still going to come to your district and I'm still going to try to help you out and I'm still going to try to make your life easier.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I think that's all true.

Speaker 6 But even before you get to that, which is actually like a, like a slightly more sophisticated understanding of what's happening beyond just, hey, this bill you may have heard a little bit about, it is good.

Speaker 6 It has good things for our state. You might not have known that before now.

Speaker 6 Hey, there's a local news coverage that's going to show you that we're groundbreaking on something you didn't realize was going to be affected by a bill that got passed in Washington.

Speaker 6 There's just sort of like the basics that this helps get people, get in people's minds that they might not have known about.

Speaker 5 Well, even the way he handled that, though, by, you know, making a joke about it, like he could have gone there and been like, and Joe Wilson voted against this because he doesn't care about you.

Speaker 5 And Marjorie Taylor Greene voted against it. And I'm going to go.
But instead, he was just like, yeah, I'll go to the groundbreaking. It's great.

Speaker 5 And so if you catch that on the local news, is it going to win over a bunch of Republicans? Probably not. But are there a few people who might be like, you know what?

Speaker 5 It's hard to really hate that guy. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So, that's, I like it. Biden's other big political challenge, aside from the economy, is, of course, the perception that he is too old to run again.

Speaker 5 He addressed that directly on Friday when CNN's Fareed Zakaria asked him whether he should, quote, step aside and let another generation of Democrats take the baton.

Speaker 5 The president answered, quote, One thing that comes with age is some wisdom. I just just want to finish the job, and I think we can do that in the next six years.

Speaker 5 There were also pictures of Joe Biden at the beach over the weekend.

Speaker 6 I say them in a folder called Taxes.

Speaker 5 Where he was rocking a polo and a short bathing suit that led to quite a few social media jokes, including this viral tweet, quote, if he keeps leaning into the frat guy energy, it will be a landslide.

Speaker 5 Donald Trump may have inadvertently helped burnish that image by today accusing Joe Biden of doing the cocaine that that was found in the White House, quote, in order to give his presidency a little life and energy.

Speaker 5 What do you think? Is an 80-year-old president who rips lines at Rehoboth in a five-inch inseam bathing suit and aviators, is that the kind of leader we need right now?

Speaker 6 He's kind of boyfriend I need right now.

Speaker 5 Yeah, but by the way, look, when did,

Speaker 5 like,

Speaker 6 are five-inch inseam shorts fratty? I thought the frat guys have the longer shorts.

Speaker 5 I thought these were more.

Speaker 5 I don't think so anymore.

Speaker 5 Great.

Speaker 6 I'm into it. I also think Biden, there's something about it.
Biden is like the perfect kind of 80-year-old in that in half his pictures, he looks 60, and in half his pictures, he looks a fucking 100.

Speaker 5 Well, it's funny because from the same trip,

Speaker 5 so he's on the beach with Jill, the first lady, and there's a bunch of people around him.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 like Secret Service is there too, but like he's just sort of like mingling with the the other beachgoers and he's got his shirt off and

Speaker 5 he's looking a little older there. And Republicans are sending that around.

Speaker 5 And then Democrats are sending around the picture where he's in the bathing suit, his polo, his aviators, and he's looking pretty fit. Yeah.
Looking pretty good. He's looking great.

Speaker 5 It is.

Speaker 5 Yeah. It depends on how you catch him.

Speaker 6 Yeah. It's an angle thing.
But and who among us?

Speaker 5 Who among us doesn't have a better ambition? Exactly.

Speaker 6 Exactly. He's so relatable.

Speaker 5 So we laugh at this, but there was actually a real politico story today with the headline, the testosterone primary of 2024 is getting out of hand.

Speaker 5 And the story is all about how, and this is the quote from the story, the presidential contest has careened into a frenetic Fitboy summer side quest in which candidates are drawing fewer contrasts on policy and proving more keen on comparing feats of strength.

Speaker 5 The piece also included one of the worst sentences I have ever read in a political story in my life. Let's hear it.
Quote,

Speaker 5 thirst traps are a new wedge issue.

Speaker 5 Thirst traps are a new wedge issue. Agree or disagree.

Speaker 6 So I'm not going to dignify that with a response. I do think this combines like two things.
One is there are a few candidates who are, like, there's one candidate, that Republican mayor who's running.

Speaker 6 Oh,

Speaker 5 Francis Suarez.

Speaker 6 Who like got some headlines because he looked fit on a jog. And then you have RFK Jr.

Speaker 6 doing

Speaker 6 low-weight bench presses with his torqued out old body that seems chemically enhanced.

Speaker 5 No to vaccines, yes to steroids.

Speaker 6 But it is worth keeping in mind. And again, like, listen, I'm not really very interested in doing like lizard brain, strong person, good leader.
You know, like, I don't really think we need to.

Speaker 5 Unfortunately, some Republican, a lot of Republican voters probably are.

Speaker 6 Yeah,

Speaker 6 except

Speaker 6 their favorite person in the world is

Speaker 6 80 year o is a 78 year old man who's afraid of hills and famously is allergic to exercise and orders his his burgers well done and like hasn't had a has had a real salad that wasn't a fucking iceberg wedge in 25 years.

Speaker 6 So they don't think they really care about it all that much.

Speaker 5 The Francis Suarez thing is very funny.

Speaker 5 So he he was bragging about his sixth place finish, what he called his sixth place finish in a 5k.

Speaker 5 And it turns out he actually placed 87th.

Speaker 5 And the sixth that he got, his sixth place finish, was in his age group. And the age group was 45 to 49.

Speaker 6 Still pretty good.

Speaker 6 Still pretty good.

Speaker 5 That covers five years?

Speaker 5 That's all.

Speaker 6 The Matt. Well,

Speaker 6 there is something actually interesting happening, which is there's

Speaker 5 a right-wing

Speaker 6 discourse that runs from like Joe Rogan to Jordan Peterson and a little bit some of the kind of pro-Trump right that's a little fascistic around like real, Tucker Carlson's like real men are strong and they they have high tea and they don't eat vegetables, but it's like Elon Musk this weekend challenging first of all, he called Mark Zuckerberg a cuck, tweeted that, and then followed up, came back to his tweet, as we all do,

Speaker 5 like the next day, responded to his own tweet and challenged him to a quote literal dick measuring contest

Speaker 6 yeah you start to just i mean obviously that's ridiculous and i don't think they should do it but you start thinking it's like like before the cage match after the cage match is there some sort of way that is that something we'll do is who's going to do the measuring is it a some kind of prisoner like who's who signs up for that job uh yeah and ultimately it's like all these like this endless like ridiculous it's it is this like like the the it does feed into this like they they really don't know how to be men anymore.

Speaker 6 I mean, Elon Musk went through that whole news cycle where he was being hosed down by an agent on a boat where he looked chubby. And so the next thing he knows, he's talking about being on a Zempic.

Speaker 6 Hope it's working for him. It just,

Speaker 5 guys,

Speaker 5 therapy. Get therapy.

Speaker 6 Talk about what being a man means to you in that room. Get some guidance.

Speaker 5 Go from there. I mean, the more serious flip side to all this is Biden's with age comes wisdom argument.

Speaker 5 His team has been telling reporters they intend to make that case, sort of like on background. You see it in the articles.
This was the first time, I think, we've heard it from Biden himself.

Speaker 5 What do you think of that argument?

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 I think he, it's the first time he's doing it outside of maybe the correspondence center where he did it there.

Speaker 5 Oh, right. Yeah.
And he was sort of joking there, but with age, it was, I'm not old.

Speaker 6 He said, I'm not old, I'm wise or whatever, some version of that.

Speaker 6 It was the one that ended with the Don Lemon, I'm not not over the, I'm over the hill or I'm not in my prime. I'm not over, you're right.
I'm not over the hill in my prime.

Speaker 6 But I think they've like really,

Speaker 6 they are aware that this is his biggest weakness as a candidate, right? Like we've talked about this. They clearly are trying to figure out their way to navigate it.

Speaker 6 Part of it is going to be with jokes and trying to play it down, which he's doing a great job of doing. He has this kind of go-to line now.

Speaker 6 And actually, what's great about it, it actually like previews his argument, right?

Speaker 6 He always like, look, I may be 200 years old, but I've never seen anything like this before, which is a way of describing your vast wisdom and experience. So I think it's great.

Speaker 6 I think it's the right way to talk about the issue. They're just, they're not running from it the way they were before.

Speaker 6 Yeah, not that they rhyme, but they're recognizing that they have to hit a fit, hit on.

Speaker 5 I think it is much better to own the benefits that come with age than to run around constantly trying to prove that you're not as old as you are.

Speaker 6 What he should say is, I'm old, I'm wise, and

Speaker 6 you may not know this, but my ears, nose, and scrotum are still growing.

Speaker 5 Oh my God, what?

Speaker 6 That's a part of aging.

Speaker 5 That is a part of aging. There was also an Axio story today.
So there's that.

Speaker 5 There was also a nice.

Speaker 5 When you started saying nose, I thought we were going into another. Oh, no, no, no.

Speaker 6 Well, yeah, it's more room for Coke to go up.

Speaker 5 Is that your point?

Speaker 5 This guy knows what a blizzard is.

Speaker 5 Too many cocaine jokes. All right.
There was also an Axio story today. A very long Axio story.

Speaker 5 It was like most of the Axios morning newsletter about how Biden apparently has a quick trigger temper with his staff during meetings.

Speaker 5 And so it's all about, you know, if people aren't prepared, he's yelling at them.

Speaker 5 He's grilling them. He's getting angry.

Speaker 5 always in private, you know.

Speaker 5 And the story says at one point, some Biden aides think the president would be better off occasionally displaying his temper in public as a way to assuage voter concerns that the 80-year-old president is disengaged and too old for office.

Speaker 5 So what do you think? Should Biden be more of a dick?

Speaker 6 Yeah, I think he goes like ghost full Karen at a Chipotle.

Speaker 5 I would think that'd be cool. No, first of all,

Speaker 6 front of the show, Tim Miller pointed out that the anecdotes in the story were all pretty old. It was like one of them was yelling at Jeff Zeintz.

Speaker 6 when he was COVID czar about the lack of COVID testing, which doesn't seem like a morning fit of peak. It seems like a deep frustration with a policy failure on the part of the government.

Speaker 6 Seems quite fair.

Speaker 5 Seems like a big deal.

Speaker 6 And also that person and Zeintz became chief of staff. And then the other anecdote was about fundraising during the 2008 campaign, which is like pretty far back to go for Biden to lose his temper.

Speaker 6 That said, like,

Speaker 6 you know, there's a lot of ways to show that you're energetic without losing your shit at people.

Speaker 5 I personally don't know what they are, but people tell me that they exist.

Speaker 6 And I would say, try some of those.

Speaker 5 It to me is a little bit... part of the conversation we were just having about like the trying to out masculine the fake masculinity that the Republican cats are doing like

Speaker 5 senile old man is not a great image. I don't think grumpy old man yelling at kids to get off your lawn is that much better.
I really don't. I don't either.

Speaker 5 I think when Biden shows passion about injustice that Republicans are causing or trying to help people, like when he's energetic on the stump, like I go back to the State of the Union speech, some of his democracy speeches, like I think that's good.

Speaker 5 That kind of energy is good. But I don't think just like

Speaker 5 yelling and being outraged all the time time is good. I realize that like some people of our partisan persuasion might like that, you know, show a little anger.

Speaker 5 I don't think that I don't think most voters want that. Yeah.
And I also.

Speaker 5 Like I think, again, I think his joking about going to Marjorie Taylor Greene's district is going to be much more effective than yelling about Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Speaker 6 And also just sort of like... Past results are indicative of future performance.

Speaker 6 Some of his best moments that have been energetic have been him mixing it up with Republicans, but with a smile on his face.

Speaker 6 Some of his worst moments in public life over the last 50 years have been the moments that like followed him because he lost his temper and yelled at somebody on a rope line, had a bad moment.

Speaker 6 I don't think like it's all well and good to say like, oh, when he gets angry and tests like that,

Speaker 6 like

Speaker 6 wait till you see it.

Speaker 5 And by the way, some of his best moments in public life have been when he has shown kindness and compassion and grace to people, many of them who've lost someone, like he has lost people in his life.

Speaker 5 And those are his very best moments when he's quite kind, you know? So,

Speaker 5 I don't think he should be a dick.

Speaker 6 No, I agree. Unless he, like, he could start an OnlyFans.
He does the bathing suit, yells at people for money, I guess, for fundraising.

Speaker 5 That is little nose candy.

Speaker 6 Yeah, a little extra money, a little spending money for the weekend. You know, do a vid, head to Hakasan, have a great time.

Speaker 5 Little blow if he can afford it, as his boss once said.

Speaker 5 That's right.

Speaker 6 Now we're

Speaker 5 now off the rails.

Speaker 5 When we come back,

Speaker 5 Lovett talks to Delaware congressional candidate Sarah McBride about her run for the house.

Speaker 7 As a contractor, I don't pay for materials I don't use. So why would I pay for stuff I don't need in my mobile plan? That's why my biz plan from Verizon Business is so perfect.

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Speaker 15 when your company works with pnc's corporate banking you'll gain a smart and steady foundation to help you carry out all your bold ideas but while your business might not be shaky you might still experience shakiness in other ways you might be outbid on the perfect summer house your kid might not attend your alma mater or your yacht might be jostled by stormy waters.

Speaker 15 No amount of responsible banking can prevent these things.

Speaker 16 Except maybe the yacht, because we tell you boats are generally a bad investment.

Speaker 3 PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865.

Speaker 13 The PNC Financial Services Group Inc., all rights reserved.

Speaker 22 At Eisner Amper, we are creative problem solvers that take a 360-degree approach focusing on you.

Speaker 22 We're an award-winning firm with decades of experience providing accounting and advisory services.

Speaker 9 Eisner Amper, let's get you ready.

Speaker 6 She is a state senator from Delaware running for the Democratic nomination to represent Delaware in the House. Sarah McBride, welcome to the pod.

Speaker 23 Thanks so much for having me, longtime listener, first-time caller.

Speaker 6 Well, welcome. So your announcement video talks a lot about family and medical leave and coffee.

Speaker 6 It does not mention that you would be the first out-trans person to serve in Congress at a time when the country is in this massive debate about trans rights and trans acceptance.

Speaker 6 Can you talk a little bit about

Speaker 6 why you made that choice and more broadly, how you think about the role identity plays in the campaign?

Speaker 23 Sure. Well, obviously, I'm incredibly proud of who I am.
I'm proud to be trans.

Speaker 23 And that background, that experience is an important one that I bring to the table, but it is just one part of my life experience.

Speaker 23 It's just one aspect of the experiences and perspectives that I'll bring to the table in Congress. Because ultimately, I'm not running just to make history.
I'm running to make a difference.

Speaker 23 I'm not running to be the transgender member of Congress. I am running to make progress on all of the issues that matter to Delaware.

Speaker 23 And I wanted to reinforce that for people. I knew that the media would talk about my trans identity.

Speaker 23 I knew that the media would focus in on the historic nature of this campaign, but I wanted to focus in on the issues that I've been thinking about as a state senator, senator that I've been working on, that I've been delivering on, and the issues that I'll be focused on in Congress, like early childhood education, paid family and medical leave, gun safety, and reproductive rights.

Speaker 6 So, you know, one thing you've talked about is that one of the reasons trans issues have come to the fore so much is because there is an effort on the right.

Speaker 6 to manufacture a lot of outrage and fear around this.

Speaker 6 Now, when I worked for Senator Hillary Clinton, and this is a memory that's almost 20 years old now, so I may get the details a little bit wrong, but she was really proud about the fact that she was going to work with every Senate Republican she could, except for Saxby Chambliss, because Saxby Chambliss ran an ad about Max Cleland that maligned him in a despicable way, even though he had lost three of his limbs when serving in Vietnam.

Speaker 6 Now, you would be serving in a House with a majority that's gone full disgusting on LGBTQ issues. How do you think about it?

Speaker 6 It's not fair that this comes to you, but it would, that you would be deciding basically the boundary, right?

Speaker 6 Between like, are there people that you wouldn't work with because they're heinous or are there people that you would just view as a challenge? Like, how would you think about that?

Speaker 23 Yeah, well, first off, I think it's important that as a member of Congress who's a first from a particular community, we demonstrate that we can do the job that we're elected for.

Speaker 23 And that includes a willingness to work with your colleagues. Now, I think there are Republicans in Congress who won't work with a single Democrat.

Speaker 23 But I actually am willing to roll up my sleeves, dive into the details, and work with people who I may disagree with on every other issue if we can find common ground on the issue before us.

Speaker 23 I think when I ran for the state senate here in Delaware, people thought that there was no way that I'd be able to work with more moderate members of the Democratic Party, let alone conservative Republicans.

Speaker 23 But I'm actually proud that of every bill, bill, almost every bill that I have introduced and passed in the Delaware State Senate, I've been able to pass those bills with bipartisan majorities, including major Democratic priorities like paid leave.

Speaker 23 And then I've been able to find common ground with the Senate Republican leader on expanding access to rural health care. And we've worked really closely on issues of oral health.

Speaker 23 And so I think there are issues outside of the headlines, outside of the evening news, to the degree that people still watch the evening news, where Democrats and Republicans can actually work together.

Speaker 23 But yes, there's no question that there are real divides and real partisan divisions. And ultimately, let their pettiness contrast with my desire for progress.

Speaker 23 Let their cruelty contrast with what I believe is at the heart of my politics, which is compassion.

Speaker 23 And let that contrast serve as a visual representation of the fact that they have absolutely no policy proposals for workers and families in this country and that their attacks on trans people, their lack of willingness to engage with me is meant to appeal to a small faction of an ever-shrinking Republican Party and to distract from their policy failures.

Speaker 6 Is there like a little part of you that's like wants to be on the House floor and see some of these people? And maybe you're not working with them day to day, but like, hi, I'm Sarah.

Speaker 6 I'm not a monster. I'm not a, you know, that, that, that has to be.
a little bit exciting.

Speaker 23 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, it should be uncomfortable for these people to push forward these types of policies.

Speaker 23 It is very easy to do that when there is no one from the impacted community in the spaces that you're in. They should have to look me in the eye.

Speaker 23 They should have to answer my questions when I'm up on that dais. They should have to seek my vote on certain things, particularly if we're in the majorities.
They should have to work with me.

Speaker 23 and spend time with me and be in spaces with me so that they can feel bad about what they're doing.

Speaker 23 And even though some might not, a lot of them, a lot of them will feel bad when they have to look me in the eye because they're doing this for political gain.

Speaker 23 They don't actually believe in these horrifically cruel policies.

Speaker 23 And so that's one of the reasons why representation is so important, because it changes the conversation, it changes the priorities, and it changes policies.

Speaker 6 So Senator Chris Murphy got in a little bit of a kerfuffle. I don't know if you saw this, but he kind of put out a Twitter poll.

Speaker 6 And what he said was, there are a lot of social conservatives who believe in populist economic policies, and it would be a good idea to have those people a part of the democratic left coalition and accept a bit more intra-movement friction on cultural issues as a consequence.

Speaker 6 Now, he clarified this and said, there should be no compromising on LGBTQ rights.

Speaker 6 But if we want to build a majority that brings in people that maybe agree on raising the minimum wage, agree on expanding the social safety net, but aren't with us on social issues, our door should be open to those people in part because maybe we can persuade them.

Speaker 6 As someone who has very clearly thought about persuasion, what do you make of that argument? Do you agree with it? Do you disagree with it?

Speaker 23 I think there's no question that we as a party, as elected officials, should never compromise on basic human rights.

Speaker 23 I think there's no question that our party, when it comes to candidates that we should support, should have sort of threshold questions and basic human rights should be one of those threshold questions.

Speaker 23 I do think that as a society, as individuals, as citizens, we do have to maintain connections with people who disagree with us, who might not be there yet.

Speaker 23 And yes, that includes on issues that I might personally

Speaker 23 struggle with comprehending why someone might be on the opposite side of it from me. But in order to have social change, we need some level of connectivity.

Speaker 23 We can't allow for those bonds to dissipate so much that no one's holding them accountable, that no one's having conversations with them and opening their minds and changing their hearts

Speaker 23 on these issues. And I also think that the reality is that to govern, you have to build coalitions that have diversity of thought in those coalitions.

Speaker 23 And maybe on that one issue before you, you're like-minded, but you disagree on other issues.

Speaker 23 And so I think we have to be able to hold both of those truths in our approach to politics, that we have first principles on these issues when it comes to who we elect and how we operate as a party, while also recognizing that both there are citizens, but also ultimately people that we might have to work with who get elected, who disagree with us on some fundamental questions, but for whom we can find common ground with on the issue before us.

Speaker 6 So you've pushed back a bit. Now, there are people who I think have made a pretty kind of, I don't know,

Speaker 6 travel a little too quickly from A to B to say, you're a trans person, you know the Bidens, you changed Joe Biden's mind on trans issues. I think

Speaker 6 that seems like a lot to ask of one person. Can you at least take any credit for getting him into shorts with a five-inch inseam?

Speaker 23 Listen, if you ask my friends, I'm the last person that could take credit for any kind of cutting-edge fashion that someone's wearing. But I'm incredibly proud to call Joe Biden a friend and an ally.

Speaker 23 You know, I've seen some of this coverage. I've been asked about it a lot, our relationship.
And I think you're right.

Speaker 23 It is not one person and it's not one relationship. I truly think it's this president's big heart.

Speaker 23 And I also will say, I think it's him carrying on his son, Bo's legacy, who I had the chance to work for when he was attorney general and also work with in pushing forward a non-discrimination bill here in Delaware to protect the LGBTQ community.

Speaker 23 And I think Joe Biden feels closer to Bo when he's carrying on his legacy, when he's carrying on his work. And so I think a lot of credit doesn't just go to the president's big heart.

Speaker 23 It also goes to the president's late son.

Speaker 6 Do you have a fun or goofy Biden story you can share? A moment where he calls you kid at a time that makes no sense? Anything? What do you got?

Speaker 23 Oh, man.

Speaker 23 Well, I'll tell you the first time I met the president, I was 11 years old. And I met him at a pizza shop in Delaware.
And he ripped out a schedule that he had from the day and signed his name on it.

Speaker 23 And it was my prized possession. And I might have been the only 11-year-old in the United States who was cherishing a schedule that had the nomination of Thomas Pickering on it.

Speaker 23 But my favorite Joe Biden story is not a funny one. It's in 2013, in January 2013, at the Naval Observatory.
I had just come out as trans, and I was still very nervous.

Speaker 23 I was just finishing up my internship in the White House, and I saw the vice president then from a distance, and he pulled me in and said,

Speaker 23 Beau is so proud of you. Jill is so proud of you.
I'm so proud of you. The whole family is so proud of you.
And I just want to know, kid, are you happy? And I said I was happy.

Speaker 23 And he said that made him so happy and gave me the biggest hug.

Speaker 5 Wow.

Speaker 6 Well, Sarah McBride, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 6 So good getting to have you on the show. And good luck out there.
I guess you raised a lot of money really quickly.

Speaker 23 We did. I've been incredibly grateful for all of the folks who visited SarahMcBride.com to donate and volunteer and help us have momentum as we launch this campaign.

Speaker 6 Okay, I'm just letting you get it in.

Speaker 6 Well, thanks for being here. Have a good one.

Speaker 23 Thanks so much.

Speaker 5 Thanks to Sarah McBride for joining us today.

Speaker 9 We will talk to you on Thursday.

Speaker 5 Pod Save America is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez.
Our producers are Andy Gardner-Bernstein and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

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Speaker 13 When your company works with PNC's corporate banking, you'll gain a smart and steady foundation to help you carry out all your bold ideas.

Speaker 15 But while your business might not be shaky, you might still experience shakiness in other ways. You might be outbid on the perfect summer house.

Speaker 15 Your kid might not attend your alma mater, or your yacht might be jostled by stormy waters. No amount of responsible banking can prevent these things.

Speaker 16 Except maybe the yacht, because we tell you boats are generally a bad investment.

Speaker 3 PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865.

Speaker 13 The PNC Financial Services Group Inc., all rights reserved.