How Many Republicans Will Follow MTG?

Speaker 1 Today's presenting sponsor is Simply Safe Home Security. If you could actually stop someone from breaking into your house before they got inside, why wouldn't you want to?

Speaker 1 Traditional home security systems respond after someone breaks in. Simply Safe is different because it stops crimes before they happen with its active guard outdoor protection.

Speaker 1 High-tech cameras detect threats while they're still outside your home and alert real security agents. This is a game changer.
The agents take action while the intruder is still outside.

Speaker 1 They confront the intruder, let them know that they're being watched on camera and that police are on the way, even sounding a loud siren and triggering a spotlight if needed.

Speaker 1 That's how you stop a crime before it starts. Other systems have cameras that let you talk to intruders, but they require you to see the alert yourself.

Speaker 1 SimplySafe's monitoring agents have your back and talk to intruders, even if you aren't there. There are no long-term contracts or hidden fees.
You can cancel anytime.

Speaker 1 Name best home security system by U.S. News and World Report five years running, 60-day money-back guarantee.
So you can try it and see the difference for yourself.

Speaker 1 I set up a SimplySafe, incredibly easy to do. Works really great.
The app is great. The customer support is really reliable.
It helps you feel confident that your home is protected.

Speaker 1 So don't miss out on Simply Safe's biggest sale of the year: 60% off. Right now, our listeners can save 60% off on a Simply Safe home security system at simplysafe.com slash crooked.

Speaker 1 That's simply safe.com slash crooked. There's no safe like SimplySafe.

Speaker 2 Right now, we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known.

Speaker 2 I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Corey Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Katanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F.

Speaker 2 Kennedy Jr., Charlemagne the God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 3 Welcome to Pod Save America.

Speaker 1 I'm John Favreau. I'm John Levitt, Tom Vitor.

Speaker 3 On today's show, Trump is trying to end one war just in time to start another. We'll talk about the latest in Venezuela and Ukraine.

Speaker 3 We'll also talk about Marjorie Taylor Greene's somewhat shocking resignation from Congress and whether the intra-maga rebellion against Trump is real and growing, especially in light of the president's new flirtation with her proposal to extend Obamacare subsidies.

Speaker 3 Against our better judgment, we'll also touch on the latest with the RFK Jr., Olivia Newtsie, Ryan Lizza Love Triangle that has everyone googling the definition of felching.

Speaker 3 Not love it. Not love it.
No, of course not. No.

Speaker 1 No, I knew what it was.

Speaker 1 John, I knew what it was.

Speaker 3 So I didn't have to look it up. Then Pennsylvania Congresswoman Summer Lee stops by.
Boy, she's going to be regret being in this episode.

Speaker 3 She talked with me about how congressional Democrats are trying to hold ICE accountable, the latest on pushing for the release of the Epstein files, and lots more.

Speaker 3 But let's start with some big news about Trump's efforts to retaliate against anyone who's tried to hold him accountable.

Speaker 3 A federal judge has 86 the indictments of New York Attorney General Tish James and former FBI director James Comey based on the finding that Pam Bondi illegally installed the prosecutor in both cases.

Speaker 3 Former insurance lawyer turned Trump defense attorney Lindsey Halligan. Judge Cameron.

Speaker 1 Just imagine turning to Pam Bondi and be like, is dismissed good?

Speaker 3 Does that mean we win? Does that mean I'm dismissed? Can I go home now? Good job. Can I go back to Florida? Judge Cameron Curry held that when Trump and Bondi forced out the sitting U.S.

Speaker 3 Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia because he and the rest of his office refused to bring charges against Comey and James, his replacement should have been appointed by the judges in that district, not the administration.

Speaker 3 That makes the indictments and everything else invalid.

Speaker 3 Judge Curry dismissed the cases without prejudice, meaning the government could theoretically try to get new indictments signed by a different prosecutor, though in Comey's case, the statute of limitations ran out on September 30th, which the judge also noted.

Speaker 3 Still, the administration said it will appeal the judge's ruling, and they do have a few other potential options for getting a new prosecutor in there. to try again.

Speaker 3 I just want to read you guys my favorite part of the ruling, and then you can react.

Speaker 3 Judge Curry wrote that the DOJ's argument would, quote, mean the government could send any private citizen off the street, attorney or not, into the grand jury room to secure an indictment so long as the attorney general gives her approval after the fact.

Speaker 3 That cannot be law. I don't know.
That seems pretty cut and dry. I mean, they got pretty close to just sending in any private citizen off the street.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they're getting closer and closer, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 An insurance lawyer has never been a prosecutor. Like, that's getting closer.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I talked to Aaliyah Lippmann about this on our YouTube and the strict scrutiny YouTube, and she's a genuine expert, so I'd suggest checking that out.

Speaker 3 The Pot Save America YouTube.

Speaker 1 I'm the Pot Save America YouTube.

Speaker 3 If you haven't subscribed already, already. What are you doing?

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 there's a question as to whether or not the Comey indictment can be revived because there's an extension because there was already an indictment.

Speaker 1 The issue here is that Pambonte put out a memo on Halloween basically saying retroactively that Lindsay Halligan is like a kind of has a special role in the department that allows her to do this.

Speaker 1 The bigger problem for them is their position is: even though the law says

Speaker 1 after

Speaker 1 120 days, the courts have to appoint a prosecutor, their view is every time you fire an interim prosecutor, that clock goes back to zero, which doesn't make sense because why would you ever then have the rule that lets the courts do it if you would never need to put it in place?

Speaker 3 Aaron Powell, and clearly it's a problem because Halligan is now the fourth interim U.S. attorney that a federal judge has ruled

Speaker 3 is an unlawful appointment. So

Speaker 1 it's like being the head of homes.

Speaker 4 Okay, Okay, number two.

Speaker 3 Tommy, what do you think?

Speaker 4 I enjoyed it because not only the judge was like, not only is your indictment invalid, you basically don't exist as a person.

Speaker 3 Your entire existence is invalid.

Speaker 4 It literally refers to as a defective appointment, which could apply a lot of different ways.

Speaker 3 Leave this courtroom in shame.

Speaker 4 Yeah, get out of here.

Speaker 4 And also, it sort of freezes a bunch of the other parts of the appeal's process. Yeah, the appeal, what happens next on appeal is confusing.

Speaker 4 In the Comey case, it does seem like you're outside the five-year statute of limitations. So I think he would try to use that to get it dismissed.

Speaker 4 It's also a question of like, Trump, who is Trump going to get to bring this case again? He's probably going to have to put forward a U.S.

Speaker 4 attorney candidate, get that person appointed, get that person confirmed by the Senate, because no one else is going to take up this case because it's clearly a terrible case.

Speaker 3 I mean, Rudy seems like he's got some time. Juliani's got some time.

Speaker 1 It's very funny to think about it. He's also unprecedented.
So it's like, was there an indictment against Comey? Because she is just a stranger off the street.

Speaker 1 Like if somebody on the street's like, I've indicted James Comey, I'm the U.S.

Speaker 1 attorney, but according to the law, they're not like, is there like, so that there is genuinely an open question as to whether there could be an extension.

Speaker 1 It's worth also noting that the law, they're all going after this judge as being some kind of democratic plant who's out to protect Tish James and James Comey.

Speaker 1 But smartly, she uses, part of the logic is the same logic that Eileen Cannon used to dismiss the case that Jack Smith had brought because Jack Smith wasn't legally appointed, according to Eileen Cannon.

Speaker 1 So they're defending on the same logic there.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 3 the invalid appointment of Halligan is just like tip of the iceberg in the problems with both of these indictments, as we have seen.

Speaker 3 Like, you could get a really, a prosecutor who was both skilled, experienced, and

Speaker 3 legal in there, and they would still have real problems with both of these cases.

Speaker 1 They're barely legal prosecutors

Speaker 3 dealing with the Archie's.

Speaker 4 This case looked at just this question of whether it was valid under the appointments clause. Yeah, there are a bunch of other issues that are still pending.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Speaking of alien canon, did you guys see the this new long New York Times story over the weekend? Where

Speaker 3 it's connected to this because so they're like, okay, now Trump appointed the guy in the Eastern District of Virginia. He refused.
He was a Trump appointee.

Speaker 3 They thought that he would bring a case against Comey. He refused.
Everyone in the office

Speaker 3 refused. They had to find Lindsey Halligan off the street.
Now this isn't working out.

Speaker 3 So now they get a new thing where in Florida, they've convened a grand jury to look into all of the Obama-era conspiracies that got Trump all upset with RussiaGate and all the rest of it.

Speaker 3 Why in Florida, you may ask? Because they say they're claiming that the raid of Mar-a-Lago, which was about stolen classified information, is somehow connected to the RussiGate stuff, which it's not.

Speaker 3 But they want it in Florida because they think better grand juries, better prosecutors, better judges,

Speaker 3 better weather. And so they're going to try to subpoena John Brennan and all the 2016 era Obama administration officials to go down there.

Speaker 3 But they're not happy with the first grand jury they have, which I guess is still in a district that's a little too blue with potentially judges who respect the rule of law.

Speaker 3 So they are convening a second grand jury that starts this January in Fort Pierce. Why Fort Pierce? Because there's only one judge that you can draw at Fort Pierce, and that's Judge Cannon.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's. And the grand jury there would draw from an extremely red area, unlike the grand jury around Mar-a-Lago, which is Palm Beach, which would be a little bluer.

Speaker 3 So they are now trying to have a district with a judge that's in Trump's pocket, a prosecutor, U.S. attorney that's in Trump's pocket, and a grand jury that is super trumpy.

Speaker 1 They're going to show up on that. You got to take a fan boat up to the fucking swamp courthouse in your legally required jorts to go in front of the judge.

Speaker 1 And if you lose to the alligators, you fucking go.

Speaker 1 It's swamp justice.

Speaker 1 Swamp justice for John Brennan. Swamp justice for Adam Schiff.

Speaker 4 Next fall on the history shadow.

Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. Swamp justice.
I just think that, obviously, all of this is, it's funny, but very dangerous.

Speaker 3 But I think that what we're seeing here from the Halligan fiasco and the Comey and James fiasco is like, you can't just like legally loophole your way into prosecuting successfully a whole bunch of your perceived enemies for no crimes.

Speaker 3 Yeah, there's no...

Speaker 3 And even Cannon, if she's in this, you know, overseeing this grand jury, yeah, maybe they can get to the subpoena stage and get people to testify.

Speaker 3 But at some point, someone's going to appeal the decision to some other judge that has more of a respect for the rule of law than this group of dipshits.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think what we're seeing over time is how sophisticated does your corrupt operation have to be to succeed in America.

Speaker 1 And the level of sophistication required is dropping, but it is still, the waterline is still above where Lindsey Howard gets in reach.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah, which is good news for now.

Speaker 3 So far, it doesn't seem like losing the Comey and James cases in such an embarrassing fashion is deterring Trump and his goons from using the government to punish other Americans they don't like, at least trying.

Speaker 3 Pete Hegseff, who calls himself the Secretary of War, announced on Monday that he's launching a military investigation into Senator Mark Kelly, who's a retired naval officer, for the crime of saying in a video with other Democrats in Congress that military service members don't have to follow illegal orders.

Speaker 3 A message that led Trump to demand that Kelly and the other Democrats should be arrested and put on trial for seditious conspiracy, which Trump said is punishable by death.

Speaker 3 The Pentagon said they may end up recalling Kelly to active duty status in order to court-martial him.

Speaker 3 Kelly issued a response saying, in part, if this is meant to intimidate me and other members of Congress from doing our jobs and holding this administration accountable, it won't work.

Speaker 3 You guys think this is a serious threat or some bullshit Hegseth cooked up to make Trump happy that isn't really going anywhere, Tommy?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think what Jason Crowe and everyone's saying is right. What Kelly's saying is right.

Speaker 4 This is an effort to intimidate them and silence them and try to get other people to be quiet going forward.

Speaker 4 I do think, though, once again, they are making some significant legal mistakes in the process of this little vendetta that we should talk through.

Speaker 3 The first is that, so the Department of War, Department of War, I hate saying that,

Speaker 4 they said they're reviewing these allegations in accordance with the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the UCMJ, which is basically the military justice system.

Speaker 4 Then dumbass Pete Hegset tweets out a statement calling the congressman the seditious six, and he said Kelly's conduct brings discredit upon the armed forces.

Speaker 4 So basically, he's calling Kelly guilty of sedition. Why does that matter? Because in the military, there's an important concept called unlawful command influence.

Speaker 4 It refers to a statement by a commander or a senior military leader that seems to influence the case. And that's a big deal in the military because you take orders from your superior.

Speaker 4 So if your superior, in this case, the Secretary of Defense or war, is saying this guy is guilty of sedition, then if

Speaker 4 you work under him, if you're a defense attorney, if you're a prosecutor, if you are a member of the court-martial jury pool, of course you're gonna be influenced by that.

Speaker 4 So I think he's probably shot himself in the foot if this were actually a legal case. Big picture, it's not.
I mean, there is a plaque that hangs at West Point.

Speaker 4 The title is Loyalty to the Constitution. And it talks about how the U.S.

Speaker 4 military does not swear loyalty to our leaders, but to the Constitution, and that, quote, our American code of military obedience requests that should order and the law ever conflict, our officers must obey the law.

Speaker 4 That's what these guys are talking about. And they're clearly just worried that there is currently a policy in the Caribbean of murdering random fishermen in boats based on bad evidence.
So

Speaker 4 I don't think this is going to work for Hegseth.

Speaker 4 Also, I think there's another piece of context that someone I was talking to today pointed out, which is that in the Ukraine talks that we'll get to in a minute, one of the key parties is a guy named Dan Driscoll, the Secretary of the Army.

Speaker 4 He is also best eased with J.D. Vance.
When Hegseth was dealing with his whole Signalgate thing, a lot of people were like, get rid of that clown, put in Dan Driscoll.

Speaker 4 So now that Dan Driscoll is at the big boy table negotiating the big peace thing, Heg Seth is at home freaking the fuck out and flailing.

Speaker 4 And this is his way to curry back favor with the White House. That would make sense.

Speaker 3 Interesting political side note. Yeah,

Speaker 1 the Washington Post had this story about all the legal machinations to try to get approval for these strikes. They were trying to have it go through the CIA, but Stephen Miller found that

Speaker 1 imperfect because they wanted to be public. And

Speaker 1 the Post reported that junior officers in the military, fearing potential legal exposure, asked military lawyers, JAGS, for written sign-off before taking part in strikes.

Speaker 1 So there is already agitation inside that people are being asked to participate in

Speaker 1 military actions that may be ultimately seen as illegal. The other part of this is Hegseth made a point of saying publicly, like, I can't go after Alyssa Slockin because she was CIA.

Speaker 1 I can't go after four of the others in that video because they're not technically retired.

Speaker 1 I can only really go after Mark Kelly using the Uniform Code of Military Justice because Mark Kelly served his country for 25 years.

Speaker 1 The other thing that's jumped out at me about the video, the original video that set this off, is they make a, they're very careful. It's very careful.

Speaker 1 Clearly, these are people being very thoughtful and aware of the fact that this would cause blowback. And they make a point of saying, you can refuse unlawful orders.

Speaker 1 And I found that word just, that's a choice, right? Because they could say

Speaker 1 you must refuse unlawful orders, but they chose their words really carefully to not be making any kind of a, they're not compelling anyone to do anything.

Speaker 1 They actually make a point of just stating what is ultimately the law, which is you do not have to follow unlawful orders.

Speaker 1 They issue no commands as a former member of the Navy, whatever the implication is that Heg Seth is making that he's using his sort of position as a retired captain to influence people.

Speaker 1 They chose their words to avoid this if they were going, if it was going to go all the way.

Speaker 3 And I think the Code of Military Justice actually says you must refuse lawful orders. Yeah, I think they said both in the video.

Speaker 4 I think Jason Crowe said must at 1.2, but the point stands.

Speaker 4 They're not telling these guys what to do. They're just pointing out what the law says.

Speaker 3 They're just restating the law.

Speaker 1 Right. And then others have since pointed out, right, that the law is clear.
You must follow lawful orders. You are required to disobey once.

Speaker 3 Also, even if they try to recall. Kelly to active duty so they can try to

Speaker 3 use military justice here. He has a lot of legal options before he even gets to that point.

Speaker 3 He can go right to federal court if they try to recall him for active duty and argue First Amendment violations, due process, misuse of recall authority, jurisdictional overreach, being like,

Speaker 3 this has nothing to do with my military service. This is something that I did outside of military aid, free speech.

Speaker 3 So there's a long way to go before he's even, you know, they try to attempt to court-martial him or do anything like that.

Speaker 3 Like Pete Hag Seth, the Secretary of Defense can't just go around and anyone who's retired just immediately call them back into active duty so that they can put them on trial.

Speaker 3 Like that's just not swailing. Yeah, you can't do that.

Speaker 1 Gago made this point too, that like

Speaker 1 there's a there's a lot of very serious people that are not Trump goons like all along this process of enforcing

Speaker 1 the military code of justice.

Speaker 3 So yes, I agree.

Speaker 4 Positive America is brought to you by Armra. Feeling sluggish, bloated, not like yourself? Life bombards us with silent threats.

Speaker 4 Processed foods, artificial light, and modern stressors disrupt your gut, drain your energy, and weaken your immune health. Your body isn't broken, it just needs the right inputs.

Speaker 4 Armra colostrum is nature's original blueprint for health.

Speaker 4 Colostrum is packed with over 400 bioactive nutrients that fortify gut health, fuel fitness recovery, and strengthen immune health, supporting your best performance every day.

Speaker 4 Take back control of your health. Probiotics are touted as a gut health solution, but they only address one part of the four-part gut wall.

Speaker 4 Armra colostrum naturally fortifies your entire gut wall system, nourishing your microbiome and strengthening the gut wall architecture, helping to guard against everyday threats.

Speaker 4 Armra colostrum is your secret to feeling strong, vibrant, and confident again.

Speaker 4 The bioactive nutrients in Armra colostrum work at the cellular level to ignite inside-out transformation for whole body benefits, including hair, skin, and more.

Speaker 4 These bioactive nutrients act as a blueprint for your body, promoting your cells' natural renewal processes to support skin, hair, gut health, metabolism, immune health, lean muscle, and whole body vitality.

Speaker 4 Harness the closely guarded secret of elite athletes, long prized for its unrivaled ability to take performance to its apex.

Speaker 4 Colostrum has been shown in research to help enhance nutrient absorption, promote lean muscle building, and improve endurance while fueling cellular repair regeneration for faster recovery.

Speaker 4 We've worked out a special offer for our audience. Receive 30% off your first subscription order.
Go to armra.com/slash crooked or enter crooked to get 30% off your first subscription order.

Speaker 4 That's armra.com/slash crooked.

Speaker 6 At Etsy, we know the holidays are already exciting, but we can't help adding a little extra joy to the season. Get up to 60% off original gifts from small shops with Etsy cyber specials.

Speaker 6 Terms apply for gifts that say, I get you. Shop Etsy.

Speaker 3 Kelly and the other Democrats didn't specify in the video which potentially unlawful orders they were referring to, but as we've said, and some of them have said in interviews, that service members have expressed concern to them about the legality of Trump and Hegseth just blowing up boats in the Caribbean and near Venezuela, killing dozens of people now who the administration has claimed without evidence are bringing drugs to the U.S.

Speaker 3 And it seems like Trump is planning more military action that could become a full-scale war with Venezuela. Reuters reported on Sunday that the U.S.

Speaker 3 is, quote, poised to launch a new phase of Venezuela-related operations in the coming days, potentially beginning with covert operations.

Speaker 3 The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Dan Raisin-Kaine, visited the U.S.

Speaker 3 Southern Command in Puerto Rico on Monday, where most of the 10,000 American troops who have surged to the area are based.

Speaker 3 The State Department just designated Venezuela's President Nicolas Maduro and some of Maduro's allies as members of a foreign terrorist organization, specifically Cartel de los Soles, which, by the way, doesn't really exist.

Speaker 3 It's just a Venezuelan figure of speech used to describe corrupt military officials involved in the drug trade.

Speaker 3 So, this news comes just as a new CBS poll has 70% of Americans opposing military action in Venezuela, including 53% of non-MAGA Republicans and even 34% of MAGA Republicans.

Speaker 3 A slight majority of Americans do approve of the boat strikes, 53 to 47, but 75% say that the government needs to show evidence that the boats are carrying drugs, which of course they have not.

Speaker 3 Tommy, what do you think? Does Trump just think he can somehow oust Maduro without a large-scale military operation that most Americans won't support?

Speaker 3 He just like thinks that there's like an easy way out here where we can get him without any cost to the U.S. military and that everyone will be happy?

Speaker 4 I guess. I mean, maybe we'll find out.

Speaker 4 I've talked to people who worked in Trump 1.0,

Speaker 4 and I've heard that he got pretty close to doing this in the first Trump term, and that he genuinely wants Venezuela's oil because they have a ton of reserves.

Speaker 4 And now in Trump 2.0, you have Marco Rubio in there serving in like seven different jobs, including archivist.

Speaker 4 And he came up in hardline Miami political circles where leftist governments in Latin America are the enemy.

Speaker 4 And he thinks that not only do you want to take out Maduro, but he thinks that you take out Maduro and that leads to the toppling of the Cuban government. And that's like his real passion project.

Speaker 4 So at the same time, all of them are getting lobbied by this woman, Maria Machado, who's a Nobel Prize winner, unlike Trump, and these very, very brave, but very conservative Venezuelan opposition leaders, business people, exiles, who claim they're like, oh, we have a regime change plan.

Speaker 4 It's like plug and play.

Speaker 3 100 hours will always work for you.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it'll be seamless.

Speaker 4 They also, I think, seemingly are whispering to Trump that maybe Venezuela did, the ghost of Hugo Chavez did steal the last election, which we can get into.

Speaker 4 So that's the kind of context swirling in the background. I think Trump probably sees these polls and knows this is a bad idea.

Speaker 4 I'm positive he's hearing from the Bannon Tucker Carlson wing of the party, like, yo, man, this is not what MAGA signed up for.

Speaker 3 Like, you overtly ran against regime change wars.

Speaker 4 Maybe it's a head fake to pressure Maduro into leaving voluntarily, well, like gunpoint, but voluntarily.

Speaker 4 There's reportedly a deal on the table where Maduro was like, I'll leave in two to three years, but we'll like cut this like, you know, oil deal with you.

Speaker 3 Which is kind of hilarious. Like,

Speaker 3 like, Maduro's a bad guy.

Speaker 4 He stole the last election. He's a fucking authoritarian.
But trying to float a, I'll leave in three years deal with Trump is very funny.

Speaker 4 Invading is insane. This is a country that is like, it's like a third bigger than Texas.
There's like armed factions everywhere. There's like Yellow.

Speaker 4 There's like former terrorist groups on the border. They have real military hardware.
Like, I hope to God we don't do this, but we have a lot of naval assets in the region right now.

Speaker 3 I love that in when we were, when they were contemplating war in Iraq, we're going in there for the oil. Bush Bush's going in there for the oil was seen as like sort of a leftist conspiracy.

Speaker 3 And now it's just out in the open that it's like, you know, Trump might want to get the oil.

Speaker 1 Also, you know,

Speaker 1 there was a debate in Congress and then a vote. You know, the UN got involved.
There was a lot.

Speaker 3 Democrats in Congress can't even get briefed on the boat strikes.

Speaker 1 The great sin of the Iraq war is that he got a bunch of Democrats to sign off on the authorization of the use of force. We went into that.

Speaker 1 We went into that as one beautiful, united, stupid country in Congress, you know? And this is just, they're just doing it without Congress. They're doing it without any on the boat strikes.

Speaker 1 They're walking around with like kind of coming up with novel reasons to justify the military actions. It's like, it's unbelievable.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think they have a fucking gall to criticize those Democrats for that video when they refuse to provide any legal justification whatsoever, even one that you could say is phony or that you disagree with or that's flimsy.

Speaker 3 They're not even trying that. No legal justification for the strikes and no evidence whatsoever that these boats have been carrying drugs.

Speaker 4 I think people will get prosecuted over this policy.

Speaker 3 I hope it's Pete Hegseth. I hope it's not like lower-level people like within the bowels of the U.S.

Speaker 4 military. I mean, the guy in charge of Southern Command, the Admiral in charge of Southern Command, resigned over this policy because he thought it was unlawful.

Speaker 4 So look, they're just murdering people in boats. We don't know who they are.

Speaker 4 One of the boats reportedly turned around. One seems to have stalled.
You can see the video. They just like these snuff videos of hitting boats just sitting in the water.

Speaker 1 And by the way,

Speaker 1 even let's say they do know, even that, like, we're just so far from a real justification. We're not allowed to just blow people up, even if they are drug traffickers with drugs.
Because what?

Speaker 1 That's not, what kind of self-defense is that?

Speaker 3 It's not a thing. It's not a thing.
That's why that you see all the, and that guy resigned. Also, there's like a bunch of lawyers resigned or were forced out around based a bunch of them.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Or they're just benefiting from the chaos of the fact that people are being shuffled, people are stepping down, right? Like there's just,

Speaker 1 there's just jobs that aren't being currently filled by the kind of serious national security lawyers that would have been there in previous administrations.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And look, I know there's listeners like screaming at the phone right now, being like, what about Obama and his drone policy against al-Qaeda and the way you guys stretch the AUMF within an inch of its life?

Speaker 4 Like I agree with a lot of that criticism, frankly.

Speaker 4 The response would be, at least there was

Speaker 4 a vote to authorize the use of force against al-Qaeda and associated forces. Like

Speaker 4 that pretext hasn't even happened here. They're just designating them terrorist groups

Speaker 4 based on this like made-up term, this made-up cartel association that came from like Venezuelan journalists.

Speaker 3 Also, the Obama administration did not start just drone striking a bunch of boats and then saying, trust us, we think there were some terrorists in those boats, and we're not going to tell you who they were or what or what the evidence is or anything else.

Speaker 3 Yeah, no, absolutely not.

Speaker 4 I mean, the argument would be that, look, you don't. A lot of the drone strikes, like you don't know who is at a target.
There were a lot of big mistakes that were made.

Speaker 4 Important in Yemen in particular. And that

Speaker 4 by the end of the administration, you're hitting targets in Somalia based on an AUF that was dealing with the 9-11 attacks, right? I get all the criticism.

Speaker 4 I agree with a lot of it, but like, just want to be clear that this is a new, different, and even more absurd thing. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And before we move on from this, we're going to war maybe because Venezuela rigged the 2020 election.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you heard her here first?

Speaker 3 Ghost of Hugo Chavez kind of thing? This is the real thing that Trump believes now? Apparently. I guess he's always believed it, but now

Speaker 3 it's resurfacing.

Speaker 4 I've heard that Maria Machado is kind of whispering this to him. I don't know that for sure.
I've heard it from people who are like experts in this policy world. It's insane.

Speaker 3 So stupid. So stupid.
Trump and Rubio are still dealing with another war they promised to end before starting this new one.

Speaker 3 American and Ukrainian negotiators met in Geneva over the weekend to revise a Trump-brokered peace plan so favorable to Russia that at least one Republican senator thought the U.S.

Speaker 3 didn't even draft it. Those talks yielded a, quote, refined peace framework that was more acceptable to Ukraine, but we still don't really know what the prospects are.

Speaker 3 The EU put out its own counterproposal to the Trump plan, which the Kremlin said on Monday is completely unconstructive and does not work for them.

Speaker 3 I was even confused trying to figure this all out about the flurry of news around this and these negotiations and the plan over the weekend.

Speaker 3 Tommy, can you explain what happened and what's in the Trump plan as far as we know?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, that Mike Rounds statement was very confusing.

Speaker 4 It's like the origins of the plan seems to be up in the air based on this conversation with Rubio, who briefed a bunch of Republicans who then suggested that, I don't know, it's all very weird.

Speaker 4 Like what the administration says is that this has been basically negotiated by Steve Witkoff, Trump's golf buddy and kind of envoy for everything, and then this Russian guy named Kirill Dmitriev, who controls the Russian sovereign wealth fund.

Speaker 4 The specifics are unsurprising if you followed the maximalist Russian demands over the years. It seems to have just leaked out.
Like Witkoff, again,

Speaker 4 these guys don't know how to use DM. I think Witkoff tweeted something like, oh, did this come from K, meaning Kirill? I think you were supposed to DM that, but he thinks the Russians leaked it.

Speaker 4 That timing is notable because Zelensky is dealing with this massive corruption scandal, and the Russians are also getting really aggressive, and they're firing drones.

Speaker 4 It's like Polish airspace and all these other European countries. There's all these sabotage operations.
So I think that's how it came out.

Speaker 4 And that seems to have fast-forwarded a process that got us to these negotiations that were happening over the weekend in Geneva.

Speaker 3 Do we think we're in a better place now? Well,

Speaker 4 I mean, the original 28-point plan was like just full surrender. It was basically Ukraine gives over the Donbass region.
They gave over Crimea.

Speaker 4 Karason and Zaporizhia are frozen along the battle lines, and the Russians occupy the parts. It's de facto recognition that Russia gets what they're occupying.

Speaker 4 And then it capped the size of the Ukrainian military. It says Ukraine can't join NATO, but they could try to join the EU.
It would force them to hold elections in 100 days.

Speaker 4 And then the security guarantee part of this is just fucking bullshit. Like there was this Axio story that's like, oh, there's a NATO-like security guarantee.

Speaker 4 Absolutely not. No NATO troops are allowed to be in Ukraine.

Speaker 4 That was sort of seen as like a tripwire force that you could have like in place in Ukraine where if the Russians invaded, it would immediately pull in Europe. That's off the table.
The U.S.

Speaker 4 is not providing anything close to a NATO-like guarantee. But the Russians get amnesty for crimes committed during the war.
They get reintegrated into the global economy in the G8.

Speaker 4 Sanctions get lifted. And then the U.S.
and Russia do some deal to cooperate on like. energy and AI and rare earths and stuff.
That 28 point has been now negotiated. It's like 19 points.

Speaker 4 And then the rest goes to the leaders. So I think it's getting a little better, but it's not good.

Speaker 3 It feels like also it could get better to the point where then Putin decides,

Speaker 3 no, now it's too good. And it seems like it's in his interest to just continue dragging this out.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, either he continues taking territory or he gets a deal.

Speaker 3 Love it on Twitter this morning, JD Vance waited in, as is always helpful,

Speaker 3 where he had this long tweet taking a bunch of pot shots at fellow Republicans who don't like the White House's plan, and he ridiculed their, quote, passion for Ukraine as, quote, bonkers.

Speaker 3 What's your sense of the politics for the White House and the Republican Party here?

Speaker 1 I do always appreciate when J.D. Vance directs that fucking patronizing, smug tone at Republicans.
They just get a little whiff of it.

Speaker 1 You know, look, this is an issue that divides Republicans. And they have a lot of those these days.
And I don't think the politics of this are very good for them.

Speaker 1 Mitch McConnell put out a statement about this, and he made this point at the end of it that I thought was, I think, relevant.

Speaker 1 He said something to the effect of the United States is not neutral in these negotiations, and we should not pretend otherwise, which is wishful in two ways.

Speaker 1 One, he doesn't want America to be neutral, but really what he wants is us to be less biased toward Russia, right?

Speaker 1 He continues to operate in the fantasy that America is really, actually, still maintaining what he and the other kind of old school establishment, neocon-style Republicans believe, which is obviously

Speaker 1 seeing the invasion of Ukraine by Russia as a dangerous act that, if you know, allowed to be successful bodes terribly for Taiwan, the rest of Europe,

Speaker 1 the free world. But that's obviously not where Trump and Witkoff are.
I don't, Witkoff gave yet another interview.

Speaker 1 I think this was with Carlson, talking about how much he likes Putin and doesn't see him as a bad guy.

Speaker 1 Whatever the reality of what they believe is their posture, they come across as being so guileless in dealing with Putin.

Speaker 1 And the idea that you're going to attack Republicans for being obsessed with this issue, for pointing that out, I don't think is particularly smart.

Speaker 3 It's also just interesting.

Speaker 4 Like, look, this is just another peace deal, so-called peace deal, where Trump's version of getting a peace deal done is just the stronger side gets everything and the weaker side gets told to take it at gunpoint.

Speaker 4 I mean, that's what happened in Gaza too. It's also just worth pointing out that

Speaker 4 the U.S. and the Russians are like cutting this deal bilaterally and then presenting it to the Ukrainians.

Speaker 4 And now there's conversations happening as the rest of the world is in South Africa at the G20, which we are boycotting, and the COP climate forum just wraps up in Brazil, which we also boycotted.

Speaker 4 So it's like the degree to which we have just taken ourselves out of the traditional forums and structures that would solve an issue like this is kind of, it is remarkable and unnerving.

Speaker 3 And I think it's just, I mean, from J.D. Vance's tweet, it's we shouldn't have to solve things like this.
And let's let the stronger power win and because it doesn't matter to us.

Speaker 3 And if they, if, if Russia comes for us, well, we're strong too, so we can deal with that then. But none of that.
That's basically the thinking, which is

Speaker 3 very, very great powers era.

Speaker 1 But none of it makes sense.

Speaker 1 You have the envoys. You are negotiating the deal.
It's not, I don't know what it means for

Speaker 1 the whatever passion he's claiming people have, it doesn't justify negotiating a deal that is more favorable to Russia.

Speaker 1 First of all, it's not clear that that ends this war any sooner because the Ukrainians are not going to go along with a deal like that, and that won't necessarily end the fighting.

Speaker 1 And by the way, anything, any deal that doesn't provide any kind of security guarantees, like what, why,

Speaker 1 it's just...

Speaker 1 Why do you think Russia is so concerned about having NATO troops in Ukraine?

Speaker 1 Why would they, if they want a deal, why would they care?

Speaker 1 And they care because this is a pretext to, whatever, gain some leverage, gain entrance to the global economy, and then just wait a couple of years and assume America like a goldfish moves on and then do it all over again.

Speaker 4 Right. It's like the next, this sort of, this tells Ukraine in practice, you're no longer a fully sovereign country.
Like we, the U.S. and Russia get to tell you when to have an election.

Speaker 4 We get to tell you the size of your military. We have to tell you if you can join NATO.
And then it makes Ukraine a sitting duck if Putin wants to bite off another chunk in a year or two.

Speaker 4 But also, what happens if the Russians shift some of these troops and they just sit them outside a Baltic country? And all of a sudden, a NATO country is about to get invaded.

Speaker 4 I mean, look, the Russians are firing drones into Poland on the regular. The Poles just accused them of blowing up a rail line to use to resupply the Ukrainians.

Speaker 3 Fast forward to two years when J.D. Vance is tweeting.
The passion from the Beltway GOP for NATO is just

Speaker 3 it disgusts me. That was the end of his tweet.
This disgusts me. Show some passion for your own country.

Speaker 1 The other part, too, is like, NATO is a promise, right? Does anyone believe that Donald Trump is going to stand behind NATO?

Speaker 1 What is actually holding NATO together is the fact that I do think there's credibility in Europe's now claim to defend its fellow members, but I don't know that anyone could believe Donald Trump and Steve Witkoff and J.D.

Speaker 1 Vance would have the passion for defending our allies.

Speaker 3 It's probably why they're shitting bricks in Taiwan, too. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 At one point in this 28-point plan, I think there's a reference to the U.S. like mediating talks between Russia and NATO.

Speaker 3 And it's like, wait, we are NATO. What are you talking about?

Speaker 4 We're not some like outside observer here.

Speaker 4 Anyway.

Speaker 1 Thankfully, those bricks are some of the most sophisticated bricks on planet Earth. And as long as they keep shitting those bricks,

Speaker 1 you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 Yes, I do.

Speaker 1 Pod Save America is brought to you by Helix.

Speaker 1 Are you preparing for the colder season and spending more time indoors, perhaps in bed? So, why not stay comfortable inside with a new Helix mattress?

Speaker 1 It's a perfect time to invest in a better night's sleep. Sleep is more important when everybody's getting sick all the time because we're in the peak cold and flu season.

Speaker 1 Helix is the most awarded mattress brand, tested and reviews by experts like Forbes and Wired. Helix offers a variety of mattresses designed to fit your sleep needs.

Speaker 1 How you know which Helix mattress works best for you and your body, you can take the Helix Sleep quiz.

Speaker 1 It matches you with the perfect mattress based on your personal preferences, making it easy to find a mattress that fits your sleep needs.

Speaker 1 Rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges because Helix delivers your mattress right to your door with free shipping in the U.S.

Speaker 1 And the Happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk-free customer-first experience designed to ensure you are completely satisfied with your new mattress.

Speaker 1 They even offer a 120-night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. I have a Helix mattress.
I took the quiz. I got the Don Lux.
Super comfortable bed.

Speaker 1 Really recommend it. Go to helixleep.com slash crooked for 27% off-site-wide.
That's helixleep.com slash crooked for 27% off-site-wide. This offer is exclusive to Pod Save America listeners.

Speaker 1 Make sure you enter our show name in the post-purchase survey so they know we sent you helixleep.com/slash crooked.

Speaker 6 At Etsy, we know the holidays are already exciting. We don't need to fan the festive flames by saying Etsy has one-of-a-kind gifts for all budgets.
Oh no, we just added to the excitement.

Speaker 6 Well, guess the only thing left to say is: get up to 60% off gifts from small shops with Etsy Cyber Specials. Terms apply for gifts that say I get you.
Shop Etsy.

Speaker 3 The biggest news on the continued fracturing of the MAGA coalition came rather suddenly on Friday night when Marjorie Taylor Greene posted this video along with a letter of resignation from Congress.

Speaker 7 Loyalty should be a two-way street.

Speaker 7 Standing up for American women who were raped at 14 years old, trafficked, and used by rich, powerful men, should not result in me being called a traitor and threatened by the President of the United States.

Speaker 7 And I do not want my sweet district to have to endure a hurtful and hateful primary against me by the president that we all fought for, only to fight and win my election while Republicans will likely lose the midterms.

Speaker 7 I refuse to be a battered wife, hoping it all goes away and gets better.

Speaker 3 So Trump responded on Saturday by calling MTG a, quote, nice person, telling NBC that she needs to, quote, take a little rest.

Speaker 3 And then he went back to bashing her on Truth Social as a, quote, lowlife, and once again called her Marjorie Trader Brown. Now, this is a combination of his two nicknames.

Speaker 3 First, it was Marjorie Taylor Brown because Brown is rotting and green is not, and she's rotted.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that was the first swing, and it was not a good one.

Speaker 3 So then he said, then he realized, oh, Trader was right there. So now he called her Marjorie Trader Green.
But now he's decided to bring both together, which is why we have Marjorie Trader Brown.

Speaker 1 It's a trunk, for sure.

Speaker 3 He turned the patron. I've been there before, I guess.
Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 Why do you guys think she did it?

Speaker 3 What was your reaction when you saw this?

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 first of all, I'll just be honest. I was like, oh, no, which I can't believe.

Speaker 3 Like, just half my first. I was like, Marjorie, no.

Speaker 1 So, here's what I'm struggling with.

Speaker 3 Marjorie, no.

Speaker 1 Like, take it at face value. You could have said everything she says in this video or version of it while saying, and so I will not be seeking a new term, right? What I'm struggling with

Speaker 1 the logic of is the country is in dire straits. We need people who are willing to fight,

Speaker 1 you know, no fear or favor. So I'm leaving early and going to leave my seat open.

Speaker 1 And it's especially strange when we'll talk more about sort of the broader problems inside of the Republican caucus in the House right now.

Speaker 1 But we're about to enter a period where she would have probably more power inside of Congress than she could ever hope or anyone at her level in Congress could ever hope to have in a normal period.

Speaker 1 So that's what I find strange about it, even if you take what she's saying at face value.

Speaker 3 What do you think? Yeah, no, I had a similar reaction.

Speaker 4 I was like, there's something kind of sad about Marjorie Taylor Greene deciding she can't be the world's biggest Trump supporter, but also want the Epstein files released and not think it's a great idea to just like funnel arms overseas.

Speaker 4 And that was kind of like my takeaway. And I guess like

Speaker 4 I guess being in Congress just really sucks unless you're one of like four people because they make all the decisions. Well, all all the decisions get foisted upon you.

Speaker 4 Even the committee chairs have no power. They just get jammed by the White House and they're told to grin and bear it.

Speaker 3 And then I think, I do think the security threats are quite real, especially post-Charlie Kirk.

Speaker 4 Like I heard from somebody that MTG's kids were getting harassed in a very unsettling way. And

Speaker 4 like she seems genuinely disillusioned with Trump.

Speaker 4 She was not ready to eat shit for him if there's a Democratic Congress. Like her speech was she said, I refuse to be a battered wife and hope it all goes away and gets better.

Speaker 4 Like that was a pretty jarring comparison. I also believed her when she said she believes in term limits and doesn't think Congress should be, quote, a lifelong career or an assisted living facility.

Speaker 4 I found myself applauding that line too. And then like the Machiavellian take on it is she is basically quitting to say, well, I'm actually even more America first than he is right now.

Speaker 4 And she's like, when people figure out the statement is rigged, I'll be there to rebuild. I wasn't totally sure what that meant.
So as long as she doesn't attack Trump directly, she focuses on issues.

Speaker 4 Maybe she thinks she's got more power and flexibility from the outside. Cause like everybody hates Congress and she could be like, I hate it so much, I quit.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I think people,

Speaker 3 most people believe, understandably so, that motivating almost every politician is like a drive for power and attention.

Speaker 3 And I think it's very possible that, you know, she broke with Trump. She started getting some shit.
She broke again and she started getting threats.

Speaker 3 And maybe she just thought, I don't care if I have more power the next year in Congress. I don't care that I have more months on my term.
I just want out and I don't want to deal with this.

Speaker 3 And I don't want to deal with the public eye. And I just want to, that's it.
And in some of the reporting, I noticed that some people close to her said, this is not a, this is not a shtick.

Speaker 3 She's not running. She's out of politics.
She's stepping away. She's done.

Speaker 3 And maybe it was just too much for her. And maybe there's like no explanation deeper than that.
Maybe not, but it's one possibility.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, who knows?

Speaker 1 Right now, like, I really just like, I thought I'm approaching this cynically. And I was like,

Speaker 1 there's just really no hints anywhere about what she would do. She said she's not running for president.
She just said she wouldn't run for Senate. She's not running for governor.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 she put out a longer post when she was tamping down the suggestion she was going to run for president.

Speaker 1 She said, the fact that I'd have to go through all that, but would be totally blocked from truly fixing anything, exactly why I would never do it. And it's a very defeatist.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's just not the statement of a politician.

Speaker 3 Cynicism won. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But I did come away at the end and I thought, all right, I have no idea. I don't know Marjorie Taylor Greene's mind.
She's surprised me at every turn.

Speaker 1 But it is what I thought when I got to the end of it is like, maybe she's not running for something, but there is a kind of...

Speaker 3 Maybe she's running from something. Well, for sure.

Speaker 1 For sure.

Speaker 1 But I did come away with it thinking, this is sort of

Speaker 1 what you say if you are thinking about starting some kind of like a media company or some kind of a public-facing anti-establishment, not pro-Trump, but MAGA post-Trump something.

Speaker 1 She got that boyfriend who's going to have a tougher time asking questions in the Oval Office than he used to.

Speaker 3 They seem happy.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Exactly.
They got the shirtless pics going. So many.
So I don't know. Like, that was what I said.
Like, maybe this is like a,

Speaker 1 the net will see her and talk. Look, you can either be the hero or you live long enough to become a podcast host.
You know what I'm saying? And so I do think there is a.

Speaker 3 Because you know what happens? It's like maybe, maybe genuinely in her mind right now, she's thinking, I'm done for good. Then you get home to Georgia and you're in your house and it's really quiet.

Speaker 3 Pretty quiet. It's pretty quiet.
It takes piling up.

Speaker 1 Takes piling up by the front door.

Speaker 3 You're the one that post takes, and you're like, maybe I could do something to get back into this. Or maybe not.

Speaker 1 But the other part of this that's so strange, though, is all of the like the going hard on epstein that all fits right she did have a kind of like eat prey love kindness turn as well at the end yeah post charlie kirk and then from that to go just i'm out like i that that's why i just feel like i don't i don't know the whole thing is still the truth always the truth makes sense so far i don't think this entirely makes sense It was not lost on anyone that MTG's announcement came just hours after Trump appeared in the Oval with Zoran Mamdani and couldn't stop gushing over the guy he'd previously been calling a communist lunatic.

Speaker 3 We have a longer reaction to the Trump-Mamdani meeting on Friday that you can check out on the Pod Save America YouTube channel.

Speaker 3 But seeing the reaction from MAGA world since then has been interesting, to say the least.

Speaker 3 The Fox News Chirons quickly switched from showdown with socialism to the one I saw today was just Trump and Mamdani vow to work on affordability. I was like, wow, this is different.

Speaker 3 But quite a few MAGA politicians and influencers weren't as willing to go along with Trump's change of heart.

Speaker 3 Everyone from Elise Stefanik, who was thrown right under the bus by Trump in the meeting, to Laura Loomer, to Nick Fuentes, who said the friendly meeting is proof that Trump and MAGA are hypocrites who, quote, don't believe anything they're peddling.

Speaker 3 What have you guys made of the reaction to the meeting?

Speaker 4 I mean, I just continue to be amazed. by how positive it was and the reaction was generally.
I mean, I think Zoran Mandani got huge credit for it.

Speaker 4 I did see some like super, super lefty types attacking him for, I guess, capitulating and not taking to the streets and protesting Trump.

Speaker 4 I think that probably speaks to why Zoran Mandani is in elected office now and has the capacity to do things to help people and why some others to his left are not. But I don't know.

Speaker 4 I hope Trump gets hammered for this. I do like if it adds to the mega divide.
I think he's mostly just a guy who loves love and loves the press and was happy with that combo, you know.

Speaker 3 Well, loves praise. Yeah, he does, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 4 Or felching.

Speaker 3 For sure.

Speaker 1 For sure, sort of political felching.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry, I said that.

Speaker 4 I started in my my bed.

Speaker 1 I think if

Speaker 1 the one thing that I think will linger on his side is they really were going to make Mom Dani the villain or one of the villains in the midterms. And I think they can still do that.

Speaker 1 Like, there's a, oh no, Trump's, you know, he's defanging the attack. And I think it makes it a less potent attack, but I think they can still attack Democrats as socialists.
They've never run

Speaker 3 out of...

Speaker 1 ink to do that.

Speaker 1 But if you're a like a House Republican and you already feel as though you're on edge, you're maybe going to lose your job, you're worried about the upcoming health care votes,

Speaker 1 you're just feeling like

Speaker 1 put upon and unloved. And then you turn on the television and there's Donald Trump chumming it up with the person that you all thought was going to be public enemy number one.

Speaker 1 It's got to add insult to injury. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I'm sure they're not happy. No.
Which is nice. At least Defonic was, I think she posted like, well, we're just going to have to disagree on this one because he's still a jihadist.

Speaker 3 Right, right.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that's also just the whole thing is all so embarrassing, right? Because it's like, it's like Elise Stefanik put on the clown suit because Trump loves clowns.

Speaker 1 And he's like, I want to see these clowns dance around.

Speaker 3 And now she's a sad clown. Right.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah, sure. But then it, but then it's like, he like is in the Oval Office being like, I don't like clowns anymore.
I like this guy.

Speaker 3 And she's like,

Speaker 3 what?

Speaker 1 It's like, sucks.

Speaker 3 Also, like.

Speaker 4 Fuck you, Elise Stefanik. Like you made your cause, right?

Speaker 4 Going after colleges for not combating anti-semitism and then you call this man a jihadist which is just the most like blatant disgusting form of islamophobia i've heard in a long time so you're a terrible person you were a moderate who decided to go all in on maga trump doesn't like you the moderates don't like you anymore i can't wait to watch you lose your election you got played by trump you got played by zoron take your bigoted bullshit somewhere else you suck yeah nice

Speaker 3 Back to the back to the Kennedy school for you, Elise Stefane. Enjoy

Speaker 3 your semester there.

Speaker 1 Fuck you.

Speaker 1 You get McKinsey.

Speaker 3 You get the Kissinger blah, blah, blah, professorship or something.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So more serious frustration with Trump and the White House is brewing in Congress as well. On Monday, Punch Bowl quoted a very riled-up, unnamed senior House Republican

Speaker 3 who, and this is in light of the MTG stuff, who said that, quote, nearly all House Republicans are, quote, more upset than ever with the White House and Mike Johnson and essentially called the White House team arrogant.

Speaker 3 Imagine that.

Speaker 3 That same senior senior House Republican also hinted that, quote, more explosive early resignations are coming, calling the situation a Tinderbox.

Speaker 3 Hard to not be gleeful reading that, but how real do you think this is? How much of an impact could it have on Trump's agenda and or the midterms next year? It is funny that we've waited till now

Speaker 3 to speak out against the fact that the White House has been treating Republicans in Congress like they are White House staffers. Well, yeah,

Speaker 1 probably not helpful. These quotes

Speaker 1 where Trump says that the Congress doesn't really matter anymore. Now that he did the one beautiful bill that he rules Congress with an iron fist, he had Steve Bennon referring to it as the Duma.

Speaker 1 So the current majority is 219, 213. Marjorie leaves, it's 218, 213.
Three special elections coming up. You have Cheryl's seat, you have Turner's seat.

Speaker 1 Abbott held that one open for the better part of a year so that we wouldn't get one more. Tennessee, it's hopeful.
Let's say we lose it. Hope we win it.
Could win it. It's going to be hard.

Speaker 1 Let's say we lose it. You're at 219, 215.
That means they can only lose two people, right?

Speaker 1 That goes from a house that could pass something like the Big Beautiful Bill that a house that couldn't.

Speaker 1 If there really are other potential retirements, plural, if you have two more retirements, you're at 217, 215. That means Thomas Massey personally decides

Speaker 1 anything that the Republicans can do in Congress without Democrats. Donald Trump, we're going to talk about the health care proposal.

Speaker 1 Inconceivable that that could pass without Democratic votes. So all of this means that in the next year, Democrats just have more power.
And by the way, the other tension here is this quote, right?

Speaker 1 Like, this is information, right?

Speaker 1 Like maybe a bunch of House Republicans are talking to each other about whether or not they're going to leave early, but now all House Republicans know that all House Republicans saw that a bunch of them are talking to Jake Sherman about leaving early.

Speaker 1 Nobody wants to be the guy that hands the gavel to Hakeem Jeffries. So get it.

Speaker 1 Like this is like, I don't know what Mike Johnson, his quiz Thanksgiving is fucked because if you're thinking about retiring early, you don't want to wait because all of a sudden you don't want to be the last one out before you're the one that has to decide to hand the gavel over to the Democrats or go to split committee.

Speaker 1 So it's,

Speaker 1 I don't get too excited about what could happen with these numbers, but let's just say

Speaker 1 I could write a nice poem to Olivia Nozzi about it.

Speaker 3 This sort of proved Trump right about one thing, which is you show just a little bit of weakness, you lose just one,

Speaker 3 one issue, one vote, one off-year election, and the whole whole fucking thing can start crumbling down.

Speaker 3 Because they, for how long now, have all these Republicans basically acceded to the fact that they were going to just be a satellite office of the White House?

Speaker 3 And Mike Johnson did not think that his obligation was to his caucus.

Speaker 3 He thought it was to keep Donald Trump happy no matter what, even when he didn't agree with them, even when you could tell he didn't enjoy lying for him, but he just did it because he knew he needed to keep Trump happy.

Speaker 3 And most of the, and all the Republicans went along with them.

Speaker 1 And now that they're starting to you know see some weakness here and and see that see the poll numbers now they're all like oh wait a minute maybe maybe we should not have hitched our entire future to this guy who is leaving in 2028 yeah well this is look like any kind of like effort to have control it looks stronger than it is but if your politics requires you never being weak in a democracy even one that is as flawed and broken as slipping slipping away as ours,

Speaker 1 it's brittle. It's brittle.
And the whole thing can fall down around you because these are just human beings. They didn't sign on to be vassals for Donald Trump.

Speaker 1 And they may do it for the, I mean, if they did it. They did.

Speaker 3 They're going to do it, right?

Speaker 1 They're political creatures and they have egos and they have

Speaker 1 like incentives, but

Speaker 1 they're still people.

Speaker 3 It is even in the, in the most, if you take the most cynical view, right? It's, is it better now to be a Republican politician when you could also just be a MAGA influencer?

Speaker 3 Like, I think you could make more money as a MAGA influencer. You could

Speaker 3 get more attention. So, like,

Speaker 3 what is the benefit of being in Congress?

Speaker 1 A lot of these guys, you go a couple steps down the call sheet, they don't have the time.

Speaker 3 They can't do it. They can't do it.

Speaker 1 That's fair.

Speaker 4 But I mean, like, if being in Congress sucks now, wait till you're in the minority and you can't get anything done and you're just fundraising and like

Speaker 4 defending impeachment. I mean, MTG talked about like having to defend another Trump impeachment.
She's right. That'll almost certainly happen.

Speaker 4 But yeah, I mean, Speaker Johnson, the knives are out for that guy, and it's fun to watch. I mean, he thought that he and Trump had the covenantized settings at the same level.

Speaker 4 It turns out Trump had him off from, you know, 5 p.m. until morning.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and I'm sure once

Speaker 3 I'm sure once he doesn't have the speaker roll anymore, Trump will treat him just like he treats Kevin McCarthy. You know, like those two have never been closer now.

Speaker 1 Picturing Mike Johnson showing up on Monday when everybody's working, like, I brought donuts, and it's pizza bringing back pizza Wednesdays.

Speaker 3 Pajama Fridays.

Speaker 1 Trust Falls. Hawaiian shirt Fridays.

Speaker 3 On the subject of Republican defections, the party is still figuring out how to handle the healthcare premium hikes that are about to hit 20 million Americans on January 1st.

Speaker 3 This is, of course, because the Affordable Care Act subsidies are set to expire after Trump and Republicans in Congress refused to work with Democrats to extend them.

Speaker 3 But there was news over the weekend that Trump was preparing to release his own plan this week, which would reportedly be a two-year extension of the subsidies with new income-based limits on who would qualify and a minimum premium payment required for everyone.

Speaker 3 The White House apparently forgot to consult with Republicans Republicans in Congress, as they are wont to do.

Speaker 3 And now the entire proposal is on hold because of reactions like this from an anonymous House Republican who told MS Now, you know, it's bad if they're going to MS Now.

Speaker 4 That's part of this that made me wonder.

Speaker 3 And the quote from the anonymous House Republican is, I wasn't expecting the proposal to be Obamacare light, absolutely not supportive of extending ACA subsidies.

Speaker 3 And there's all this reporting that they did, the White House did pull back the proposal from this week because there was so much of a backlash among Republicans in Congress.

Speaker 1 Too bad, bitches.

Speaker 1 You've anchored the negotiation.

Speaker 3 What do you guys think of the proposal itself?

Speaker 4 I mean, I think my big takeaway is I'll believe it when I see it. I mean, we've been, you know, getting a plan to repeal and replace since 2015.

Speaker 4 I think in 2020, he started giving us the two-week countdown, and here we are, 2025. I guess it's good that he knows it's a political disaster.
I would love to see him extend the ACA premiums.

Speaker 4 I do think the things they're focused on are so weird. Like, they're worried about this ghost premium premium issue.

Speaker 4 So they're trying to eliminate basically zero cost premiums because they think that it'll root out fraud if you make people pay like five bucks a month or something.

Speaker 3 If there's broker fraud or something, they're really worried about go after the brokers.

Speaker 4 I don't totally understand this obsession, but I just I don't know how you get this for Congress.

Speaker 3 I just I don't get it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So I saw the the the the the details that had leaked of what they were proposing and then I kind of went looking around because uh it was sort of like

Speaker 1 seemed better than what it should be to be honest.

Speaker 1 Like, it's not Obamacare-light, whatever that means. It is a reminder that Donald Trump has put himself in a terrible political situation because rather than proposing

Speaker 1 while the subsidies were in place, a Republican reform that people could have gotten behind, it is now undoing the elimination of the subsidies. So it changes the politics of it for him.

Speaker 1 But I think the fact that you have a bunch of Republicans in the House saying that this is not something they want to be a part of, and you have Gene Shaheen saying this is a great jumping off point, I think, gives you a sense of what the the politics are.

Speaker 1 So some House Democrats, I think, rightfully for the purposes of negotiation, being like, this is fucking disgusting.

Speaker 1 And we can't, we got, but, but in the grand scheme of things, like had this been what came out of, say, the shutdown, we would have described that as an incredible victory.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
So the, the, the first thing to be aware of is that it is only dealing with the enhanced subsidies, right?

Speaker 3 And so it's not touching any of the rest of the Affordable Care Act, which is important to mention because Trump and other Republicans seem to suggest at various points in the last couple of weeks that maybe they were going to do a whole new plan or a whole replacement plan or whatever.

Speaker 3 So it's just the extended subsidies.

Speaker 3 And what they would do is if you did that minimum premium payment, there's an estimate from, I think, Kaiser that a million fewer people could be enrolled in Obamacare.

Speaker 3 So a million people could lose their health insurance, which is obviously not great. It is much better than the 20 million people who would get hit with premium hikes.

Speaker 1 And by the way, that's an estimate based on people who would be willing to pay

Speaker 1 the premium. And the detailed matters, how big of a monthly premium is this.
If it's it's a small amount, people might go for it, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 3 And if you say now that people over 700% of the poverty line can't, aren't eligible for the subsidies, well, that it sounds like 700 sounds like a big number, but that's like you're getting to like $55,000, $60,000 a year.

Speaker 3 And so if you're a family, you're making $75,000, $80,000 a year and now you're not getting the extended subsidies, like that hurts them too.

Speaker 3 So it's not, I would not say it's great, but if faced between, if faced with a choice between that plan and nothing,

Speaker 3 I'd still think you'd want that plan. But also, to your point, Lovett, I can't imagine.

Speaker 3 It's bad, but it seems too good for especially House Republicans to get behind it.

Speaker 1 Here's what I don't understand.

Speaker 1 I can see something like this getting through the Senate. And I think this does feel like a Senate deal that they try to jam the House with.

Speaker 1 I think you would lose some House Republicans. And as we just discussed, they don't have a lot of room for error.
So then the only way it could pass would be with with Democratic votes.

Speaker 1 I think you would get Democrats that would vote for a plan like this.

Speaker 1 I mean, it is a two-year extension that kicks the issue down the road, ostensibly so that they can finally unveil their big plan, but we know no such plan exists.

Speaker 1 So, really, what this does is create a new baseline for future extensions.

Speaker 1 And I do think it's one that Democrats would live with. And a great, given that we have control over no houses of Congress, it would speak to A, how well Democrats did in making healthcare the issue,

Speaker 1 and B, just how how bereft of ideas Republicans have been on healthcare because they're just trying to figure it out now.

Speaker 1 And like one of the ideas in there is to have some money go into health savings accounts.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 1 Right?

Speaker 1 Like they just, when push comes to shove, they're either going to do something that a bunch of right-wingers don't like or they're going to do something fucking heinous that the country won't like.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 they've been stuck for a long time.

Speaker 3 All right, before we get to my interview with Summer Lee, we're going to take a quick dumpster dive into the tabloid drama involving RFK Jr.

Speaker 3 and his alleged affair with political journalist Olivia Newtsie, who's already released some excerpts from her forthcoming memoir, American Kanto, about the whole thing.

Speaker 3 And the upcoming release of the memoir has then prompted Newsie's ex-fiancé, political journalist Ryan Lizza, to tell his side of the story in a multi-part series on his new sub stack.

Speaker 3 The first installment from Lizza accused Newsy in a highly cinematic twist at the end of the post of also having an affair with former South Carolina governor Mark Sanford when he was running in the primary back in 2020 against Donald Trump.

Speaker 3 The second installment, which dropped on Saturday, fast forwards to 2024 when Lizza, he doesn't say how, discovered erotic poetry that Kennedy had sent Newsie.

Speaker 3 Where would you guys like to begin and how graphic shall we get?

Speaker 4 I mean, we've been making felching jokes all day, so go for it.

Speaker 3 Go all in. Let's go.
Yeah, the poem,

Speaker 3 Liza says that the poems, many too too explicit to print, changed everything. And then in parentheses says, thanks to Bobby, I am now aware of something called felching.

Speaker 3 This is from, now I'm quoting from the New York Post story about felching.

Speaker 3 Of course, there was one.

Speaker 3 Felching is the term used for when one sexual partner sucks semen out of another partner's anus or vagina following unprotected penetrative sex, according to the National Institute of Health, which RFK Jr.

Speaker 3 leads as part of his top role at HHS. I just loved the gilding the lily there in the post story story about how we had to connect then the NIH definition to HHS.

Speaker 1 Hey, here's a question. How did Doge not get whatever website defines felching for the government?

Speaker 3 Why have you

Speaker 3 saved some pennies on that one?

Speaker 1 I feel like that is something we could have left to the private sector.

Speaker 4 This whole thing, man, it's just so rare to see two people both lean into a PR disaster.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 Like usually the concept of mutually assured destruction restrains both sides. They've taken a very different tack.

Speaker 4 There's been some interesting think pieces about how the kind of the modern media world incentivizes you to go all in and put it all out there, and that gets you money and that gets you notoriety.

Speaker 4 But wow, it's been tough, a tough read.

Speaker 1 First of all, I just want to say I am a new subscriber to Ryan Liz's Substack and I'm proud to give him the $10 a month.

Speaker 3 I think he's earned it.

Speaker 1 I think he's doing incredible work.

Speaker 1 That is the, honestly, in the history of Substack, I'm curious what has had more conversion than than these two posts than yeah from the from edition one to the felching edition just the like the the the the saying like i'm what i'm about to share with all of you is so embarrassing but i'm doing it for the sake of journalism by the way uh she did this with mark sanford for click here to subscribe like yeah i'm yes ryan i am in ryan they're doing this is what it's for thank you for doing substack what i yeah i mean i guess i could subscribe to message box and find out what the polls mean

Speaker 4 I gotta say, one thing I learned from all of this is that editors are very important.

Speaker 4 These are two individuals who are supposed to be some of the best writers of their generation.

Speaker 3 Who have written some pretty excellent stuff,

Speaker 4 but I think great editors prevent extended bamboo metaphors. They probably prevent self-immolation.
They probably prevent

Speaker 4 annoyingly referring to the person you're talking about as the politician when we all know the person's name was Robert F. Kennedy Kennedy Jr.?

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 I would like to separate. I think these are two distinct.

Speaker 3 Like,

Speaker 1 I feel as though, like, the Liza posts are

Speaker 1 making lemonade, you know? Substack lemonade.

Speaker 3 Because, look, I don't,

Speaker 1 but the American canto, I don't know, first of all, what is a canto? It's a poem of some kind? I don't know what that is.

Speaker 3 It's a word British people can say, but we use it very well.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 the excerpts of the Newtsi book are very indulgent and a bit overwritten and kind of

Speaker 1 sort of lyrical. But then you're like, wait, what is this about? This is about fucking RFK.
What are we talking about? We're talking about fucking RFK.

Speaker 1 I don't want to slut shame anybody.

Speaker 3 I feel like RFK Jr. is getting off here in a way that...
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 Oh, you mean politically?

Speaker 3 Yeah, metaphorically, yeah. In a way that, like, like, he is the fucking health and human services secretary.

Speaker 3 Like, as much as everyone wants to talk about Ryan and Olivia, you know, it doesn't really matter all that much, right? Like that is their private lives.

Speaker 3 And I realize that Ryan has a sub stack and Olivia has now been hired by Vanity Fair, who's now looking into all of these surprising revelations that Lizza has aired. Fine media story, I guess.

Speaker 3 But like

Speaker 3 RFK Jr. sitting at HHS telling us that the vaccines cause autism as he's writing poems about felching.

Speaker 1 The other thing too is, first of all, everyone's entitled to a private life, including Secretaries of Health and Human Services, but he has issued some pretty strong denials that seem to be contradicted by what we're learning.

Speaker 3 Because

Speaker 3 I don't know whether or not it does seem like he has a troubled past with the truth.

Speaker 1 For sure, because it's not just that they've asserted that there was no sexual relationship. Like, he made, like, kind of went even further to be like, I don't even know this person.

Speaker 1 I'm paraphrasing. He lied.

Speaker 1 Pretty clearly lied about all this.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he's look, I agree.

Speaker 4 He's a bigger issue. Him being a liar.
And there was an incredible contrast over the weekend of all of this swirling around. And then Tatiana Schlossberg,

Speaker 3 his relative, was his sister?

Speaker 3 It's his niece.

Speaker 4 Niece, sorry, wrote this beautiful piece, The New Yorker, that everyone should read about her battle with leukemia that got into the way decisions he is making at HHS will make it harder for her to get treatment, will make it harder to find cures in the future.

Speaker 4 It's like beautifully done and brilliant.

Speaker 3 I do think. Sorry, it may be her cousin.
It's her cousin because Caroline's cousin is RFK.

Speaker 4 Either way, I just read it. It's excellent.

Speaker 4 I do think there are some ethical questions around Olivia's relationship with Robert F. Kennedy that were not really grappled with.

Speaker 4 Like the New York Times style section piece about her book just kind of yada, yada, right past that and didn't really touch it.

Speaker 4 And I was like, it feels like this is actually a kind of significant question if you are dating the person you're covering and then, according to Ryan Lizzer, writing them strategy memos for their campaign and providing advice.

Speaker 3 And he has also accused her in the second substack of catch and kill operations on his behalf, that she was engaged in catch and kill operations on RFK Jr.'s behalf and other journalistic transgressions that have still not been disclosed in addition to the strategy memos thing.

Speaker 1 How are we not subscribing to this fucking thing?

Speaker 1 Yes. 999, Ryan Lizzie.
And then there you go.

Speaker 3 And then she said to Liz, apparently, allegedly, that she was afraid if anyone found out about their affair, that Bobby would kill her. Oh, yeah, that's a big deal.
We've heard about that.

Speaker 1 Well, because that's the click, the cliffhanger for the next installment.

Speaker 3 Again, we're all just the felching has taken up a lot of

Speaker 4 space in my brain. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Also, Mark Sanford still exists.

Speaker 3 I hadn't thought about him in a while. Keith Olbermann fucking inserted himself into this whole story, too.

Speaker 1 I didn't even see the Keith Oldman posting. I didn't get to the game.

Speaker 3 Oh, my God. He was post because in there, he dated Olivia at some point.
And so Ryan writes about that. And of course, Oldberman jumps in on the Twitters, but then he also

Speaker 3 gives an interview to the New York Times, you know, talking more about it. Yes, good, more.
Yeah, this is also weird.

Speaker 4 And then I just remembered

Speaker 4 Cheryl Hines did that weird interview with

Speaker 3 Podcast Sensation Katie Miller. Katie Miller.

Speaker 4 Stephen Miller's wife, where this kind of came up and she was attacking Olivia and defending Robert Kennedy.

Speaker 3 All 11 viewers were horrified. Yeah, and he just seems like an awful guy.

Speaker 4 Did you guys know that Geraldo Rivera wrote a memoir in 1991 with the title Exposing Myself that detailed all of his

Speaker 3 anything about felt in there?

Speaker 4 I got to read it now.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 1 I just, you know,

Speaker 1 it's nice to have a media story like, like, the monoculture is dead.

Speaker 1 You know, it's nice to have something like this where it's like, yeah, ultimately, this is the person in charge of, say, vaccine schedules. And that's a bummer.

Speaker 1 But other than that, the stakes feel kind of low. You know, like, I don't know why I get to know all this stuff, but it's out there.
I'm going to read it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 Relationships are hard.

Speaker 3 They are. Relationships are hard.

Speaker 3 Especially now. Especially now.
When do you think part three drops?

Speaker 1 I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 3 I know I can turn on my alarm. I will.

Speaker 1 Because you're a subscriber. I'll send you a gift.

Speaker 4 Well, there were some Google Docs going around over the weekend. I'm sure you guys got sent those.

Speaker 3 I felt a little on that.

Speaker 1 I don't believe in stealing content.

Speaker 1 I support creators like Ryan Lizza. I will say, though, I had a choice between a yearly subscription or monthly.

Speaker 1 And I was like, buddy, listen, I don't know where we're going to be after this fucking story's ending, but I don't know if I'm going to be paying anymore.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 1 Sorry, Ryan Lizza.

Speaker 1 I think ultimately, I'm glad you're telling your story, but a couple months from now, am I paying Telos?

Speaker 4 Was there like a founding Felcher option?

Speaker 3 Yeah, there was. There was.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 1 You get access to insider Felching News before any of the rest of the community. Quarterly Zooms with the Felching Advisory Board.

Speaker 3 This is.

Speaker 4 We did this for ourselves.

Speaker 3 This is who gives us health advice. Yeah.

Speaker 3 He makes big decisions decisions and hires and fires people and testifies before Congress.

Speaker 3 He's worried about all the lies to them. Yeah, all the impunities and all this,

Speaker 3 like, forget about Red 40. How about your fucking out there Felchin?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I also just like,

Speaker 1 what is the appeal this guy's throwing off RFK Jr.? It's unbelievable.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I don't see it.

Speaker 3 Is it the

Speaker 3 poetry? It's the poetry.

Speaker 3 Hopefully we'll find more of the poetry. Anyway, we'll do a live reading if it warrants it.
Okay, when we get back from the break, you'll hear my conversation. With who?

Speaker 3 Who's our conversation with?

Speaker 3 Poor Congresswoman Summer Lee, who just came here to talk about a very serious issue: ICE overreach in American cities.

Speaker 3 She was here in Los Angeles Monday for a field hearing with the Oversight Committee and Karen Bass and other LA officials. She's going to tell me all about that and lots more.

Speaker 3 But before we get to that, quick reminder that through November 30th, we're offering 25% off annual subscriptions to Friend of the Pod.

Speaker 3 If you haven't spent all your money on Tilos, I have such an idea. Oh, no.

Speaker 1 I'm not even going to do it now. I have an idea.
Subscribe, subscribe. Is Dan going to do it?

Speaker 3 We're going to see that Dan has done a Substack Live with Friend.

Speaker 1 He should. He should.

Speaker 3 For a message box, T-Los crossover.

Speaker 3 You get access to the ad-free versions of this show, Pod Save America and all your favorites, and our subscriber-only shows like Polar Coaster and Terminally Online.

Speaker 3 And of course, you'll be helping to support independent progressive media at a critical time. Head over to cricket.com/slash friends now to subscribe.

Speaker 4 Ponte of America is brought to you by Aura Frames. What's your favorite holiday tradition? I'm a big fan of Christmas Eve.
I like sort of like the event before the event.

Speaker 4 Everyone's excited, a lot of anticipation.

Speaker 1 Go to the movies, people

Speaker 3 together.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you do that or have some drinks, put out some cookies for Santa, maybe some carrots for the reindeer.

Speaker 3 It's It's a great time.

Speaker 4 What if you could give a gift that brings your favorite holiday traditions and memories to life every day? With an Aura frame, you can. Upload unlimited photos and video to your frame for free.

Speaker 4 Just download the Aura app and connect to Wi-Fi. It only takes about two minutes to set up a frame using the Aura app.

Speaker 4 The app allows you to share photos and videos effortlessly at any time straight from your phone. If you want to personalize your gift, you can add a message before it arrives.

Speaker 4 Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag, so there's no gift wrapping necessary. You can't wrap togetherness, but you can frame it.

Speaker 4 I've given a bunch of Aura frames to people in my life. It's an amazing gift.
It's a gift that keeps on giving, really, if you think about it. It does, yeah.

Speaker 4 Because you can constantly update it with pictures from your life, of your kids, of that pet that you love, that the family misses. If you're far away from someone, it makes you feel a little closer.

Speaker 4 It's just a great idea. For a limited time, visit auraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's best-selling Carver matte frames, named number one by Wirecutter, by using promo code Crooked at checkout.

Speaker 4 That's A-U-R-A A-U-R-Aframes.com promo code crooked. This exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year, so order now before it ends.

Speaker 4 Support the show by mentioning us at checkout.

Speaker 1 Terms and conditions apply.

Speaker 6 At Etsy, we know the holidays are already exciting. We don't need to fan the festive flames by saying Etsy has one-of-a-kind gifts for all budgets.
Oh no, we just added to the excitement.

Speaker 6 Well, guess the only thing left to say is: get up to 60% off gifts from small shops with Etsy's cyber specials terms apply for gifts that say I get you shop Etsy

Speaker 3 Congresswoman Summer Lee welcome to the pod oh so excited thanks for having me of course um for people who don't know you represent Pennsylvania's 12th district which is in and around Pittsburgh yeah you're also on the oversight committee in the house and you're in town for a joint hearing with LA officials and Democrats on the on the House Oversight Committee about federal agents abuse of immigrants and U.S.

Speaker 3 U.S. citizens.
Hugely important issue I want to get to in a minute. But first, a lot of news I want to get your thoughts on.

Speaker 3 Starting with the rather sudden resignation announcement from your House colleague, Marjorie Taylor Greene. I know you probably haven't agreed with Horn too much.

Speaker 3 It's just an understatement to start.

Speaker 3 But you've been on the same side when it comes to pushing for the release of the Epstein files, opposing military aid to Israel, potential military action in Venezuela.

Speaker 3 Do you see figures like Green and other disaffected MAGA types as voters who may be gettable for Democrats going forward? Open to persuasion, perhaps?

Speaker 8 What an interesting question. You know,

Speaker 8 honestly, I'm not going to pretend that I'm the person to know, but I am a natural skeptic, right? I came, like, before I was in Congress, I was in the State House.

Speaker 8 I've been in the minority my whole time, which means that I have seen many a Republican, you know, talk a good game, say they believe something behind closed doors.

Speaker 8 And when the whip cracks, you know, they fall in line. So it takes a little bit more for me to believe that somebody is persuadable or gettable, but we all love hope.
We all like a glimmer.

Speaker 8 I believe, look, at the end of the day, whatever gets you on the right side of history, even if it's just like you're teetering and you come over for a second, I do think it's worth, you know, I think the opt-in is worthwhile.

Speaker 8 So I do believe in creating an opt-in and not an opt-out, but I also think that the real, the real mark of whether some of these people are

Speaker 8 really serious about a break

Speaker 8 is you know if they are willing to also acknowledge harm that they've done right they did not live and she has not lived as like you know a figure who has not actually you know caused any problem like no like her policies there was an implication there so like i'm happy that she's seen the light i'm sorry that you know her own tactics are being used against her by the president.

Speaker 8 I'm sorry that that's happening. I hope that she realizes that, yo, this was a terrible thing to inflict on other people.
But what does she do now to make up for it?

Speaker 8 What does she do now that she is, if she has seen the light? That's what I'm looking for right now. But one way or another, we do need more people.

Speaker 8 And we are going to have to find a way as Democrats to appeal to people, to appeal to their better sense,

Speaker 8 to

Speaker 8 help them to see and deprogram some folks, right?

Speaker 8 Because if we're saying that there is a bit of a cult over there, then we also have to say that we're committed to helping people be recommitted over to the side of justice.

Speaker 3 So, speaking of strange bedfellows, I'd love to get your take on Zoran Mamdani's meeting with Trump on Friday.

Speaker 3 So I saw a few versions of this take from Ryan Grimm, which was amplified by a senior Mamdani advisor.

Speaker 3 And it says, quote, Trump and Mamdani giving the country a vision of what bottom versus top rather than left versus right politics could look like is, if not historic, a genuinely novel development.

Speaker 3 Do you agree? What do you make of that?

Speaker 8 I agree that that's what Zoran's probably doing. And honestly, no, you know what?

Speaker 8 I will say, just as somebody who probably shared, you know, who's on this, you know, the side of the party with Mamdani, right?

Speaker 8 My whole big thing is that I don't believe that people like organize their lives and their politics on this left-right linear. Right.
It is.

Speaker 8 It's like the people who have the corporations, the power, and then the people who don't. And I think that that is a better orientation.
It is a part of the plan of helping more people opt in.

Speaker 8 I don't think that Trump is doing that.

Speaker 8 I don't think that he's doing that. I don't know.
I don't know if Trump even had a plan when that man came in.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 What did you make of him being like showering him with praise?

Speaker 8 You know what? I don't know if I'm shocked. He's a shallow guy.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Like he's kind of shallow, kind of vain, like kind of vain. So

Speaker 8 if a charismatic guy is smiling at him, and Lord knows what I'm talking, he smiles, man. He does a lot of smiling.
Like when he talks, he'll tell somebody something.

Speaker 8 He'll give them, he'll deliver bad news with a wonderful smile on his face. Like it's a part of the charisma.

Speaker 8 So I'm not shocked, you know, that, you know, Trump would be receptive to something like, I don't know, I won't say I'm not shocked, but I guess I'm not, that he would be receptive to something like that.

Speaker 8 And I do think that he's getting his ass kicked on affordability right now. Yeah.
Like really.

Speaker 8 And as we do get closer to midterms, you know, they are going to have to, they're either going to have to, whatever their plans are for the country, right?

Speaker 8 Their authoritarian, you know, fascist plans, whatever they are, if they include, you know, keeping and maintaining the majority, then they're going to have to start to be responsive to the fact that nothing has changed fundamentally unless it has gotten worse on affordability.

Speaker 3 It struck me that every time, you know, it's mentioned that there's

Speaker 3 potential overlap with right-wing populism and left-wing populism,

Speaker 3 it always seems like the right-wing populism, at least on the economic front, is

Speaker 3 to date been completely fake.

Speaker 3 Like there hasn't, you know, there's been

Speaker 3 rhetorical

Speaker 3 nods to it for sure. I have seen very few Republicans actually get behind sort of economically populist proposals.

Speaker 3 It seems like a lot of the populism is cultural identity around immigration and things like that.

Speaker 3 So yeah, I don't know if

Speaker 3 bottom versus top, if Trump is really

Speaker 3 part of the grassroots. Yeah,

Speaker 8 that's what that's a, what a funny thing to say of a man who we know is if we say that people are corporate capture, he is the corporate. Yeah.
Right.

Speaker 8 He didn't even have to be captured because he is already of that culture. Yeah.
Right. That's already That's already his social

Speaker 8 kind of peers and that's where he comes from. So, no, I will never, there is nothing that he could do or say that would convince me that he cares about

Speaker 8 folks in the social underclasses, right? We know that. We know that from every single policy that he has.
And even the part that we're talking about.

Speaker 8 the affordability, I do not think is something that he is doing benevolently, right?

Speaker 8 This is something that he is doing because he's getting pressure from members of his party and the house right now who know that they have to run every single one of them all have to run on this record they have to run on the fact that he has spent entire year right just governing by executive order not really giving any consideration to any of the because i think that i think that some of them still expect to get something done like they they're like well we had the white house we expect some money to flow into our district we expect some projects none of that is happening and i think that and you're starting to see things leaking out about people feeling that way there i think the only reason why he would care about affordability is that part.

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 there's been so many takes about Mamdani's win.

Speaker 3 And, you know, a lot of people say, okay, well, yeah, a Democratic socialist winning in liberal New York City is maybe understandable, but, you know, the rest of the country.

Speaker 3 I mean, how liberal is it, though?

Speaker 8 I mean, they have Rudy Giuliani and like Mike Blueberg.

Speaker 3 I mean, I was going to say that, you know, you, you were a former DSA member. You won in, you know, and it's a bluer district.
Washington, Pennsylvania.

Speaker 3 But still, Pittsburgh and surrounding Pittsburgh, it's not Manhattan. Not at all.

Speaker 3 And I wonder if you had some thoughts to share on sort of the voters that you've met in your district and how they've responded to someone with progressive views like yours and whether, you know, and I know, you know,

Speaker 3 when you first came to Congress, it was 22, but like... affordability, was that still a big issue with the voters

Speaker 8 in your district? Yeah. No, no, I think it's always that, right? Nothing's ever affordable enough.
And it just so happened that we are also like in a crisis now.

Speaker 8 So I think that that is always an undercurrent, you know, in

Speaker 8 politics and campaigns. And yeah, so to be clear, you know, I represent all of the city of Pittsburgh, and it's still less than half of my district.
I actually am a majority suburban district.

Speaker 8 I even have, you know, excerpts.

Speaker 8 So like the county that Pittsburgh is in, Allegheny County, is probably a bluer county, but I actually go into another county that has been a Westmoreland County, right, that has performed, you know, Trump, you know, pretty, you know, consistently and persistently.

Speaker 8 So I do get to talk to very different people, you know, on the same day, right? I can go, you know, to a black neighborhood in the Monde Valley, right? Historic steel, right? Historic labor.

Speaker 8 We got a lot of, you know, a lot of labor folks. This is, this is the home of the labor movement, home of U.S.

Speaker 8 Steel, home of, you know, all that, that kind of hard hat, you know, very, it's a very cultural labor, it's a cultural thing there.

Speaker 8 You know, we talk to those folks and we'll talk to somebody in Westmoreland County, right? We'll talk to people.

Speaker 8 You know, we talk about the same things from the time that I was in the state house to now.

Speaker 8 I've talked about in some way, using the language that makes sense for folks to talk about the things that matter, right? That, you know, in our country,

Speaker 8 the wealthiest on earth, you know, our kids shouldn't have a, they should have a quality education. It should be free, right? That you should be able to go to the doctor.

Speaker 8 You should have health care, right? That, you know, our air quality, big in our region, right?

Speaker 8 A lot of like presidential candidates think that you got to come to Western Pennsylvania, you got to talk about cracking and fracking, and you'll knock on the door and they'll be like,

Speaker 3 yeah.

Speaker 8 We don't want that. It's like a disconnect that people don't understand.
So yeah, there is still that kind of that blue collar prat about Western Pennsylvania.

Speaker 8 And I think that that populist message resonates there more than anywhere.

Speaker 8 I think that people fundamentally want for themselves, even if they haven't gotten to the point of wanting it for other people. They want for themselves, right? That thing that is the American dream.

Speaker 8 They want for themselves the ability to, you know, buy a house, you know, grow wealth, you know, be safe, be healthy. They want that.
And that's what we talk about. And we keep our message to that.

Speaker 8 And I think that people, when they are not persuaded by like multi-million dollar ads saying that we're monsters,

Speaker 8 when they're not confronted with that, we've seen by polling, we've seen through our conversations that people want what we're talking about and they want to be a part of creating that, even in my district.

Speaker 3 So there's lots of concern out there, including for me, that despite the overwhelming vote in Congress, Trump's DOJ is going to keep slow walking and potentially withholding anything in the Epstein files that makes Trump look bad.

Speaker 3 What's your level of confidence that we're going to get everything?

Speaker 8 You know, first of all,

Speaker 8 we, I know a lot of people have tuned, people have been tuned in for quite a while.

Speaker 8 This, you know, the discharge petition, so the now Epstein Transparency Act going and immediately straight to his desk and getting signed, right?

Speaker 8 I think people are tuning back in, but we did get a subpoena, you know, three months ago. We were able to force that vote in my subcommittee where I'm the ranking member.

Speaker 8 We were able to get Republicans to vote with us. And I think that that got the ball rolling.
And the DOJ has has been slow walking it since then.

Speaker 8 So even all this good talk that Trump's doing about, I'll sign it, you know, or I'll let releasing Republicans to vote for, he wasn't releasing them. That man is reading, you know, the tides, right?

Speaker 8 He's wanted this to go away for so long. And I think that this is one of the first issues that he has not been able to make disappear.
Right.

Speaker 8 Whatever scandal he has had or whatever, you know, lie he has told to people, right? He's his base has mostly, if he says he didn't do it, he didn't do it, right?

Speaker 8 If he says that he's going to get around to it, he's going to get around to it, right? They mostly just said, let's move back.

Speaker 8 This is one instance where it has not died down. We've had the longest government shutdown in history, right? We've had all year.

Speaker 8 And people are still, if not more than ever, demanding that these be released. So I think that they're going to continue to try to slow walk it, but we have actually subpoenas from the estate.

Speaker 8 A lot of people are, obviously the DOJ has the most.

Speaker 8 They have whatever, if there is a smoking gun, they have the real investigation. But

Speaker 8 his estate has, they have a lot. We've seen the birthday book.
We've seen the email. All those things came from the estate.

Speaker 8 We're now got, we just now got subpoenas to two of the banks that we need, right? These are important parts of the investigation.

Speaker 8 And the slow drip is making more, I think it's making people more apprehensive. Like they want more of it.
So, no, I don't think he'll be able to have forever.

Speaker 8 And at the end of the day, if he makes it to the end of his term, a Democrat takes over, that's a Democratic DOJ, right? At some point, the truth is going to come out, right?

Speaker 8 The wealthy and the powerful will be held accountable in this case. And I think that they are really unaccustomed to facing that reality.

Speaker 3 And if they say, if Bondi says,

Speaker 3 well, there's an ongoing investigation, so of course we have to withhold while the investigation's ongoing, there will be a point.

Speaker 3 Can you take them to court at some point? Is there legal recourse?

Speaker 8 So that's a really good question. And I think that we are going to have to explore that, right?

Speaker 8 Because it is like the subpoena that we got back in July that was signed, I think, in maybe early August,

Speaker 8 that was as legally binding as the discharge resolution, the bill that came from that.

Speaker 8 So they are compelled. They really are compelled to do it.
And I think that that's why it's so important that we don't let them off the hook.

Speaker 8 I think so many people are looking for like the next kind of organizing tactic around it. Like, you know, it's great that we have the full body unanimously,

Speaker 8 except for one guy, right? pushing in that direction. But we need the people to not let up on him, right? To not let up on his DOJ, because this is obstruction at this point.

Speaker 8 So, you know, we are, we do await, you know, they had the excuse, oh, it's a shutdown, you know,

Speaker 8 the shutdown is over. So I think there's going to be an opportunity.
You know, they talked about how big, how much there is, any time. You know, obviously they're pushing it.

Speaker 8 No, but they're not pushing it.

Speaker 8 They're not pushing it. They've been pushing it, right? But no, I think that we're going to have to look at every avenue because at the end of the day, if we allow the DOJ to

Speaker 8 not respond to subpoenas, what does that say about our legal processes? Again, this is endemic.

Speaker 8 and the entire the entire thing the entire timeline of Epstein and Glenn Maxwell's crimes that the obstruction is a part of it and the DOJ now playing this critical of a role in it I think speaks precisely to why people are like well what is there what what on earth is there that right that that we're going through

Speaker 3 precisely let's talk about the ice hearing that brought you here to LA what was the goal of conducting a hearing out here and what did you learn from it yeah so I mean I know that it might not get as much news anymore.

Speaker 8 Somebody think, you know, the news ebbs and flows if it's not Epstein.

Speaker 8 But, you know, the way that Trump has been administering this, you know, his immigration enforcement policy has been just, I mean, inhumane, unconstitutional, right? That has been the spectrum. L.A.

Speaker 8 is, of course, that was the epicenter, right? This is where, you know, he started his test case, right? To bring in federal forces, you know, to a city. to

Speaker 8 essentially unleash them on American people, you know, the tactics that they've used. We've seen American citizens being detained, including one who spoke to us today.

Speaker 8 You know, it has been

Speaker 8 cruel. And I think it's important that we, even if Comer will not call, you know, he's not going to call a hearing.
He's not going to conduct oversight on his administration.

Speaker 8 He's made that abundantly clear, but we still have to do it in whatever way that we can do it. So, coming to here to hear from the people to directly their testimony to put it into the record, right?

Speaker 8 Today, we launched from our committee launched a database, you know, a dashboard that will track ICE abuse.

Speaker 8 It won't just, it'll obviously track, you know, abuse that we're taking it, but it'll also allow people who are experiencing it to testify, you know, directly to the Democrats on the committee.

Speaker 8 creating a record, right? So whether or whenever we get into office, it's important that these things are documented so that we know where there were abuses of power, right?

Speaker 8 We know where there were unconstitutional actions, even if, you know, the checks and balances are failing. So we wanted to come here, right?

Speaker 8 We needed to come here because we need to, A, we need to send a message that we are not going to abide unconstitutional actions, even if the majority will. And we also have to let people know that

Speaker 8 an abuse that happens in one place, in one jurisdiction, is an abuse to all jurisdiction.

Speaker 8 If there is a lack of due process for some folks, then that is a threat to everybody. And

Speaker 8 we have to speak out of that.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 3 the warrantless arrest, detentions, abuse we've seen from ICE and CBP, you know, they have received received quite a bit of attention over the last year thanks to videos from eyewitnesses, court cases,

Speaker 3 protests, activists and leaders like yourself speaking out. It has dramatically changed public opinion on Trump's mass deportation agenda from where it was when he took office.

Speaker 3 But despite all of this, the administration seems like they don't give a shit and are not going to change course as long as Trump is president. You know, I see all that and I'm like, what can we do?

Speaker 3 Do we just have to wait until the end of Trump's term

Speaker 3 before hoping to see any kind of changes in this sort of horrific policy?

Speaker 8 I mean,

Speaker 8 with

Speaker 8 so many things that he chooses to focus on, right? There is that, there is that piece where they do have these levers, they do hold these levers of power.

Speaker 8 But the waiting part, I don't think that, I don't think that we should see it as waiting because part of the reason why we're here now is because honestly, Democrats lost, I would say, the messaging war, the narrative war around immigration, right?

Speaker 8 We ceded ground to people who were always inclined to have, you know, a very, you know, inhumane view of immigration that is not. their own, their own bloodline, their own folks, right?

Speaker 8 So once we lost that, right, that's how they were able to start to convince other Americans that these policies were necessary and that they're acceptable.

Speaker 8 So part of what we need to do right now is we have to win those folks back too.

Speaker 8 Just as much as we have to be prepared to govern, to govern in a more humane way, we do need just, humane immigration reform, right?

Speaker 8 I think that there are things within our immigration process that we can acknowledge, including our own role, right? Our own role in how we interact with

Speaker 8 the global community that causes,

Speaker 8 you know, immigration, causes refugee crises, right? We have to talk about all that.

Speaker 8 And we have to, in the meantime, we have to create and we have to put forth our vision for what is a better, more humane way of accepting people into our country, of protecting people as they get here.

Speaker 8 But also, I would say that this goes hand in hand with our own criminal legal reform system because both of them are, I would say, equally inhumane.

Speaker 8 And again, that we have an equally, that we had an inhumane criminal legal system where we're locking up black and brown people. We're locking up disabled people and poor folks at the rate we are.

Speaker 8 We turned a blind eye to that for many, many years. And now we're seeing it with our immigration system, right? We have to solve both of those crises and we have to build up.
We have to organize.

Speaker 8 We have to do all this. So it's not that we're doing nothing.

Speaker 8 It's not that we're doing nothing, but it's that we have to use the tools that we have and we have to be honest about the fact that, yeah, it's going to be a difficult time right now.

Speaker 8 So knowing your rights,

Speaker 8 helping our organizations that are doing legal defense, or organizations that are doing during your rights, or organizations that are protecting the community and serving the communities that are most targeted and most impacted.

Speaker 8 That's work right now that is really meaningful.

Speaker 3 Last month, I spoke to George Reddis, who's a U.S.

Speaker 3 citizen, served in Iraq, and he was up in Camarillo, north of here, and was detained by ICE, held for three days in solitary confinement, you know, no phone call to his family, no lawyer, didn't do a thing, wasn't charged with anything.

Speaker 3 And he went to D.C.

Speaker 3 and he'd been trying to get members of Congress to sign on to changes in legislation that right now the law protects federal agents from lawsuits if they engage in abuse, that it doesn't protect other people from, but somehow federal agents have this like carve out in legislation.

Speaker 3 And so he was trying to get some members of Congress to sign on to that. Do you think that's something that if Democrats get Congress back that you guys would want to pass? I would.

Speaker 8 I mean, you know, you think about this. There's a reason why.
I mean, if we remember just from the Black Lives Matter movement, Breonna Taylor, you know, how dangerous like no-knock warrants are.

Speaker 8 If you were around then, you understand how dangerous it is to have just like ICE, you know, patrolling, maybe patrolling, you know, prowling,

Speaker 8 you know, masked, you know, they're in unmarked vehicles. They're, you know, we heard from somebody,

Speaker 8 multiple people today, who mentioned that they're essentially just pulling over anybody who even looks Latino, right? That the courts then said that they can essentially discriminate, right?

Speaker 3 They can profile, right?

Speaker 8 That's dangerous. It's dangerous for every single person involved.
But what does it mean to have a country where American citizens have to walk around with their passports? Because

Speaker 8 that's what we're seeing, right?

Speaker 8 What does it mean to have American citizens and immigrants in this country? And they're afraid to go to work. They're afraid to go to school.

Speaker 8 They're afraid that they may be killed in an interaction with ICE as has happened, right?

Speaker 8 People have been killed in interactions with ICE, having done nothing, having, you know, posing no danger, right?

Speaker 8 This is such a dangerous moment and certain like policies like that protecting ICE agents when they are blatantly on camera abusing people, right?

Speaker 8 Obscuring their identity and not identifying themselves, though making people not, you know, making people, you know,

Speaker 8 submit. to someone who they don't know who it is, right? That's just, that's, that, that is, I just think that is so fundamentally, so fundamentally wrong, so fundamentally unconstitutional.

Speaker 8 And obviously, we need a real recalibration. So, this is one law.
Yeah, we need a recalibration totally.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we're a year out from the 2026 midterms.

Speaker 3 What would you like to see the Democratic Party and Democratic leadership do differently between now and the election to give the party the best possible chance of taking back the House and maybe the Senate?

Speaker 8 We don't have enough time to talk about that.

Speaker 3 Anything top of the list? Oh my goodness.

Speaker 8 Let me let me try to organize my thoughts.

Speaker 8 We have so much. No, I am so worried that

Speaker 8 we are still learning the wrong lessons from

Speaker 8 the November election, last November election with Trump, this November's election with Mamdani, and you see other people like Spanberger and folks over in other places.

Speaker 8 I just think that we are chronically committed to learning the wrong lesson. Here's the thing that I hope that we would first do.
Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 8 We talk a lot about messaging problems. We have a messenger problem, right?

Speaker 8 There are some folks who are so disconnected from the everyday lived experience of like your average person that it doesn't matter what consultant comes in and gives us a message.

Speaker 8 People want to see an authenticity. They want to know that we are choosing them.
And I say this often, right? The Democrats right now have to choose.

Speaker 8 We've been trying to straddle the fence, trying to serve two masters. And for so long, we've actually gotten away without having to choose.

Speaker 8 We can be the party of corporations and the party of people at the same time. But right now, in this moment, people are,

Speaker 8 they see that.

Speaker 8 They're over it. And I think that last election cycle, I think truly since 2016,

Speaker 8 people have been

Speaker 8 increasingly calling for the Democrats to distinguish themselves and to choose. You cannot serve two masters.

Speaker 8 So I think if I had to say the first thing that I want Democrats to do different is choose your master. Who are we going to be? Who do we serve? You cannot serve.

Speaker 8 You cannot serve the oppressed and the oppressor. You can't serve the money and the many.
You can't do both at the same time. So I think fundamentally, that's what I would ask.

Speaker 8 Second, just as a personal thing, I would ask Democrats to be more courageous. If you have to get your

Speaker 8 clout, your claim to fame, if you can only get it, if you can only be relevant by punching left.

Speaker 8 And mind you, people will say that left are like, oh, the white left. No, I mean, in office, the left are overwhelmingly women of color.

Speaker 8 You know, if you can only make your case by harming us, by fighting us, by truly mischaracterizing us, instead, you know, it seems like

Speaker 8 I too believe that they fight us sometimes more than they fight the Republicans, that they fight authoritarian, that they fight fascism, that they use that, if they kept that same energy with authoritarianism, would we be here?

Speaker 8 I don't think that we would. So I would like to see that.

Speaker 8 As much as we understand that somebody who's running in a Virginia statewide, you know, has to run in the way that they do, why do they not believe that people in blue areas deserve to be represented?

Speaker 8 That black voters and Latino voters and urban voters also deserve to be represented. This is our representative democracy.

Speaker 8 Too often Democrats are in the chorus, leadings, lead soloists, right, telling urban voters, black voters, that they have to sacrifice the representation that is actually helpful to them for some greater good.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 it just, the pendulum never swings our way.

Speaker 8 I think that we can be a party that just meets the basic needs of people without throwing away trans folks, without throwing away urban and black folks, without throwing away progressives.

Speaker 8 You can't say that we want to win and we want to beat Trump and also say, but I want to do it without you.

Speaker 3 Do you think if it's a messenger issue, do you feel good about the candidates Democrats have recruited to run in 26?

Speaker 8 Do Democrats recruit?

Speaker 3 That's an audience. I guess maybe the candidates.

Speaker 8 Yeah, they just crop up. You know, I think that like with many election cycles, you know, people rise, you know, to the occasion.
Every district is unique.

Speaker 8 Every district is, every district has its idea of what it wants.

Speaker 8 But I think that whether your district is the, the, the, the riddest of blue districts, I'm only talking about Democrats, the riddest of blue districts or the bluest of blue districts, right?

Speaker 8 I think that everybody wants to see people who are willing to speak up, who are transparent, who are present, right? And who are, who are willing to speak truth to power.

Speaker 8 Now, that's not a centrist or a left or a right thing. That's just like, that's a baseline.
So I think that there are more candidates who are willing to do that.

Speaker 8 I do think that there's also been a reckoning about, you know, generational shifts. Yeah.

Speaker 8 Right. You know, Gen Z and millennials finally comprise the largest portion, you know, of the voting electorate.

Speaker 8 But we don't obviously, you know, we don't have proportional representation at any level of government.

Speaker 8 So there are more, there are more folks who are starting to come in and we have different lived experiences. Like we've lived through different things, right?

Speaker 8 Our politics are informed by just different conditions. And there there is obviously a need, you know, for that sort of lived expertise and even professional expertise to be represented in government.

Speaker 8 So people are looking for that. And I'm not one of those people who says that all old folks should go.
Again, representative democracy. Right.

Speaker 8 I am the one to say, though, that if you find yourself in a moment where you're like, oh my God, I really want to go back.

Speaker 8 I missed the days where me and my Republican colleagues, you know, smoked a cigar together at the bipartisan club, right? Then those days are gone.

Speaker 8 There is no normal to go back to. The country that they knew, the government that they've lived through, the Republican and Democratic parties that

Speaker 8 they grew up in, are comfortable with, don't exist anymore. And they can't ever exist again.
We need people who have a vision for where we're going next.

Speaker 8 And I think that that's what the American people want. It's like, we understand that your nostalgia is a thing, but your nostalgia is not like a policy, you know, it's not like a policy agenda.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Not all the old people have to go, but maybe we can just bring down the median age. The ones who don't have fire should go, though.

Speaker 8 Again, because there are some who have fire.

Speaker 8 Oh, young, because let me tell you, there are some young people who do not have fire. Like there are young people who are very much of the get-in-the-fit-in ilk.

Speaker 8 Like they're like, I want to come and this is prestige. I got a pen.
Like I want to be here, you know, and they're here trying to do the same politics that have been done.

Speaker 8 Those politics don't work anymore. Yeah.

Speaker 8 And we need a change from all of that.

Speaker 3 Agreed. Congresswoman Summerlee, thank you so much for joining Pod Save America.
And it was good to have you here in the studio.

Speaker 8 Thanks for for having me. Call us back.
We like LA.

Speaker 3 For sure. Anytime.

Speaker 3 That's our show for today. Thanks to Summer Lee for coming by.
We're heading up for Thanksgiving, but we'll still be sending content your way.

Speaker 3 On Friday, you'll hear some of our live recording of our subscriber-only show, Terminally Online.

Speaker 3 And on Sunday, Dan will be back with a conversation with political analyst and fellow polling obsessive Amy Walter from the Cook Political Report.

Speaker 3 Then the three of us will be back with a new show the following Tuesday. Everyone have a great holiday, and we'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 3 If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 3 Also, please consider leaving us a review. That helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked.
Pod Save America is a crooked media production.

Speaker 3 Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich-Frank, and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari.
Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Sherlin is our executive editor.

Speaker 3 Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.
Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglund and Charlotte Landis.

Speaker 3 Matt DeGroote is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant.

Speaker 3 Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcote, Mia Kelman, Kirill Pelavieve, David Toles, and Ryan Young.

Speaker 3 Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

Speaker 9 October brings it all. Halloween parties, tailgates, crisp fall nights.
At Total Wine and Moore, you'll find just what you need for them all. Mixing up something spooky?

Speaker 9 Total Wine and Moore is your cocktail central for all your Halloween concoctions.

Speaker 9 With the lowest prices for over 30 years, you'll always find what you love and love what you find only at Total Wine and Moore. Curbside pickup and delivery available in most areas.

Speaker 9 See TotalWine.com for details. Spirits not sold in Virginia and North Carolina.
Drink responsibly. B21.

Speaker 3 The 2026 Chevy Equinox is more than an SUV. It's your Sunday tailgate and your parking lot snack bar.
Your lucky jersey, your chairs, and your big cooler fit perfectly in your even bigger cargo space.

Speaker 5 And when it's go time, your 11.3-inch diagonal touchscreen's got the playbook, the playlist, and the tech to stay a step ahead. It's more than an SUV.
it's your Equinox.

Speaker 3 Chevrolet, Together Let's Drive.