The hard questions about Bondi begin

ABC Listen. Podcasts, radio, news, music, and more.

Every so often, a video pops up online that makes it feel like the future has arrived. I'm Neo.
I'm here to help around the house. One X says their humanoid robot Neo will do all your chores.

So that you can focus on what matters to you while your Neo does the rest. But can he, though? On my visit, I didn't see Neo do anything autonomously.

For decades, we've been promised robot butlers, so why am I still folding my own laundry? I'm Matt Bevan and on my show if you're listening we give you the backstories behind the big stories.

It's available now on ABC Listen. Three days after the horrific attack on Jewish people on Bondi Beach, political lines are being drawn on unity and division.

While the Prime Minister has this morning reiterated his horror at the attack with both federal and state governments moving on speeding up gun reform, the Coalition has zoomed in on those in the Australian Jewish community who feel the government didn't listen to their concerns and let them down.

Welcome to Politics Now.

Hi, I'm Patricia Carvelis. And I'm Isabel Rowe, a journalist with ABC News in Sydney.

Isabel, it's now three full days after the horrendous attack on people on Bondi Beach, targeted attack against Jews.

Since the news broke on Sunday, the Australian community, I think collectively, has moved through all of the emotions and there's a lot more emotions to come, I think.

The shock of it in Australia, we're not used to this. Disbelief, hurt, sadness.
Obviously, there's mourning. People haven't even buried their dead.

So we are, you know, really in the infancy of going through all of this.

But now we're going to some of the trickier questions around the warning signs, whether it was the right response from police, from intelligence agencies.

You've been reporting from Sydney since this all obviously began. In fact, I think you were one of our first reporters on the ground for ABC News.

You just ran to the scene, which is, you know, commendable and exactly why journalism is so important to tell the story of what is happening and unfolding.

Before we get to the government and the coalition, because there's a lot there, what have you observed happening on the ground in the community there in terms of how people feel?

What is the genuine sentiment in relation to

who to hold to account?

Look, the people I've spoken to, and I've been at the Bondi Pavilion where people have been laying flowers in the past couple of days, most of the people who've come are Jewish.

So they've, you know, it's a big community in the eastern suburbs. They've come together and the feeling is despair, you know, devastation and anger.

And I think even Julian Lisa, the shadow attorney general who's Jewish, described it as white-hot anger. I do sense that from some people.

But a lot of just

sadness and

horror that

lots of Jewish people feel they can't be publicly Jewish. Lots of people have talked about having in previous years since the October 7 attacks hiding their Star of David,

not going out and wearing the sorts of religious clothing that they usually would.

There's a few people who've put the Star of David back on so they can come down to the pavilion and lay flowers and be proudly Jewish among the people around them.

But a lot of people have said that they feel they have to hide and that they don't feel safe and that Sunday is an example of what they've been saying, that they don't feel safe. I think that's right.

And that's more broadly in the Jewish community across the country, including where I live in Melbourne. There is a very strong view that they feel let down.
And I think the history is important here.

Obviously, we've seen evidence of a rise in anti-Semitism over the last couple of years, like proper evidence, many incidents.

But throughout that time, the Jewish community has been saying, do more, respond faster. And there has been a sense that people have minimized the seriousness of it in some ways.

So this is really in some ways brought home that they weren't being alarmist or exaggerating, which they were accused of.

If you look on social media, like that, there was a real view there, Isabel, I'm sure you've seen it too, that this is just overblown, that this is a real threat to the community. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, if you live in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, you see schools that always have security out the front.

You know, when you drive past the synagogues, there's always the private Jewish security there. And it becomes kind of commonplace.

And perhaps there are people in the community thinking, well, why do they need that? You know, is that really necessary?

This is what the Jewish community have been saying. They've felt that it's necessary.

And now there's evidence that, you know, that being in public in a public Hanukkah celebration in a in an obvious place left them you know sitting ducks to extremism and and yeah there's just devastation and and lots of people saying well this is what we told you so basically this is what we've been worried about so the government's really aware of just how angry the Jewish community is and they are worried about, you know, politics does matter here, about the optics of not looking like they're doing enough on the scourge scourge of anti-Semitism.

So we're recording on a Wednesday. The Prime Minister has done his daily doorstop speaking about this.

What I found interesting, Isabel, as a kind of keen watcher as you are of politics, is that today I saw a shift from the Prime Minister.

stronger execution of his lines. He mentioned he talks to Gillian Segal every day.
This morning he said he met with her.

My understanding is that they are working on, you know, responding to the Siegel report and it's imminent.

Like I can't tell you when, but like that they know that they need to respond to this and to say we're going to do these things and we're taking anti-semitism seriously

but is that going to be good good enough and you know like because they've they sort of focused on the guns originally and there's not not to say that that shouldn't be a focus chris mins too vowing to introduce the toughest gun laws in australia and recalling state parliament that there's going to be an onus on the federal government too to take take this to another level the anti-semitism response yeah and and if you speak speak to people on the ground, you know, if I asked them about politics, they would say, you know, we need the government to do something.

We've been trying to tell the government to do something. And the anti-Semitism report is what the opposition has pointed to.

It said, here are the list of things that you could do and why haven't you done them?

What is difficult though, and I interviewed the Shadow Attorney General Julian Lisa yesterday about this, is You know, what do you point to

in that report that actually would have prevented Sunday? So, you know, there's been criticism that they haven't done enough. But if you look at the report, it talks about more security.

It talks about media reform. It talks about

making sure that Jewish people feel safe at universities and defunding universities that don't act on anti-Semitism. You know,

these are two extremist gunmen who have been radicalised and have guns and have gone and killed people.

And someone asked the Prime Minister this morning, you know, these men were prepared to die for their cause. How do you legislate against that? And he said that it is difficult.

It's something that the world is dealing with.

So, yes, the government needs to look publicly like it's doing something on this report, but it also needs to deal with the security and intelligence failures, if there was any,

that led to these two men doing what they did. Yeah, and the thing is, anti-Semitism is very deep-rooted in the community.
I don't think anyone can contest that now.

And so there are lots of of layers. And I think that was a really good point about the report and whether it would really prevent.
And we were talking about that yesterday with Laura Tingle.

Could it really have prevented? Well, you know, I'm sure people could argue the toss, but I can see many recommendations that would not have done much about what happened on the weekend.

This is alleged terrorists,

you know, taking a heinous action that killed innocent people inspired by ISIS, it seems now, is what intelligence agencies are investigating. Like that is a very specific terror attack.

They targeted Jews though. So it's based in its core in anti-Semitism, right? They are targeting Jewish people.
And so where does that sentiment come from?

That is a deeper society problem, the hatred of Jews and the targeting of Jews for whatever cause. And we don't know a lot of these things.
It's politically motivated terror attack, right?

So they now have to kind of respond more broadly. Hate speech is obviously one thing they've identified, but a broader suite of reforms.

I really really would be interested to see the way Gillian Siegel plays this. Other key members of the Jewish community, they're heaping pressure, I think, on the government.

But there could be quite a kind of moment about whether they stand with the government ultimately at this stage. The Prime Minister's got them all kind of at least, you know, criticising but talking.

But that could be a real fault line. The community targeted turning on the government even more vigorously, right? Yeah, absolutely.
And yeah, as you said, that they said they're talking every day.

And, you know, so does the opposition. And the opposition's obviously set up its own anti-Semitism task force now talking about,

and it does address the opposition task force, this concept of security. And Anthony Albanese said as well this morning,

there have been real issues. We need to look at what happened in 2019 when the son, the gunman, younger son, was looked at.

At what point does his flagging from ASIO then flag the fact that his father has six guns?

I think those are the questions that the government will also need to look at as well as the broader issue of anti-Semitism. Now this points exactly to where the coalition is moving in this direction.

They have a lot of help because the Jewish community feels this particular way so you know people can accuse them of politicising and they are accusing them of that but because they I think have

the backing of the dominant part of the Jewish community, it's not universal, no community is, but I think the dominant part is fair to say, then I think they're emboldened in their critique because they have a community that's angry and they are representing that view politically.

That conversation is really key here. There is a tension in the coalition too on gun reform, I think, now.
But, you know, that will play out.

Do you think that's a big stress test for the coalition as well? Yes, absolutely. And you're right.

I mean, when I was down at the Bondi Pavilion at that vigil yesterday, it is clear that the majority of people are Liberal voters.

That's the local member in Kelly Sloan. That's the area people live.

There was a lot of anti-Anthony Albanese sentiment. There was a lot of people there who were big supporters of Pauline Hansen when she walked in with Barnaby Joyce.
There were cheers from the crowd.

There is obviously a political sentiment from the community. before all of this happened.
So you're right. The opposition does feel like it has the backing of that community here.

David Littleproud from the Nationals obviously went on radio this morning and said gun laws not the problem, it's the people with the guns.

So the Nationals have this issue where, you know, they're obviously backing people from the country. The people from the country would be naturally hesitant, I think, to have more

laws in terms of guns.

I mean, many people probably feel that they're strict enough already. And he said, you know, if you're committed to slaughtering people, you'll find a way to do it.

Whether or not the government puts a limit on the number of guns you can have, look, that could be an option. I believe West Australia has a limit on the number of guns you can have.

But it only took one gun for each of these men to do it. So, you know, I think

it's a very difficult problem to legislate, as the Prime Minister said.

Yeah, I think he's accurate there that you can't legislate your way out of this kind of fundamentalism, right, that's leading to this kind of behaviour.

And that's where I think ultimately it will end up being a question question of not just guns. Okay, guns will be one issue.
And of course they have to be,

particularly having someone like this have access to legal guns. I mean, that's...
alarming on face value. So how can you not address that? Like, how can you not look at what let that happen? Yes.

And I think I think the Nationals were sort of saying, yes, we would support, you know, if there is a member of your family who has been flagged with ASIO for whatever reason,

then other members of your family should also be flagged for their gun licences. And I think David Littleproud said that that was a matter of passing information on from ASIO to police.

Perhaps that's something practical that the government could do. And I don't think that there'd be many people who would disagree with that as a concept.

You know, how wide do you go in your extended family if there's gun licenses anywhere? I mean, that's all semantics. But yeah, it is an important issue to address, I think, the gun laws.

And I mean, as we saw after Port Arthur, I think Australians as a whole support gun law reform

in general, with the exception of, you know, there are people in rural areas who would say, don't make my life any more difficult, you know, my normal gun-owning, you know, lawful, abiding life more difficult.

I think that's right. The guns are just part of the story, though.

So I think the coalition is on, you know, they have, there's some merit to their argument that the guns are not the entire story here.

There is a much broader problem going on, which is what Albanese is now delicately trying to manage because he knows that's right.

He knows that the broader issue of this hatred for this community and the radicalization of some around this is diabolical, right?

For community safety, for Jewish people's safety, but then our sense of the community and its cohesion. Like this is a real inflection point for our country and whether we can make this work.

And some will use this, watch this space as

an an opportunity to campaign against multiculturalism. I mean, that's already playing out.
You've seen, I'm sure you have, Andrew Hasties

videos where he's going pretty hard on the idea of who we're letting in.

Now, I mean, I looked at the date that the father, who's now deceased, the gunman, came in, and I think that was during the Howard government. It was 1998.
Yeah. Yeah.
He came on a student visa.

He then transferred to a permanent resident visa and his son was born in Australia. I mean, and, you know, at the time we've we've heard today he was an Indian national, the father.

He you know the Indian government has said that he had no criminal record there.

I mean if he had a criminal record he probably wouldn't have been allowed into the country in the first place on that student visa.

So you know how do you prevent, how does anti-immigration prevent that? You know, that's that's not a it's not an issue that a country that we're concerned about.

India, you know, thousands of Indians come to Australia. It's yeah, it's it's it's you're right, people will use it for that discussion.

Um, and, you know, Pauline Hanson and Barnaby Joyce talked about it briefly yesterday to the crowd at Bondo Pavilion, and there was sort of mixed reaction from people there.

Some people very supportive of it, some people less so. But it tells a story, doesn't it? I reckon that...
even that there were cheers from the Jewish community.

I mean, I've been around longer than you because I'm older, not bragging, but I'm just older.

Sure, go for it.

And, you know, I remember the rise of Pauline Hansen. And I can tell you, like, the Jewish community, not fans fans of Pauline Hanson traditionally.

I mean, Pauline Hanson represents a kind of, you know, pretty hard right view around issues of race as well and diversity.

And all of a sudden, we have a community that has felt under siege for so long now that there are elements that are looking to people like Pauline Hansen as comrades.

I mean, that is remarkable, Isabel.

It's upside-down land. It is politics, PK.
It has been for some time.

And yes, you know,

they feel so passionate about their

identity

and their place in Australia. And

there's a woman saying to them, you know, I stand with you.

And it's because she stands against other, you know, other religions, other people who, you know, she has historically not liked.

And so, yeah, you know, perhaps for some Jewish people, there is a Saviour in Pauline Hanson. Yeah, I think that's right.
Look, just finally, and on a very different topic, but it just shows how

the world churns on, even though we've had this like incredibly traumatic and horrific event in Australia. It feels very secondary.

It was meant to be a big deal, but we are definitely now in a world where the Maifo is going to be handed down.

The Treasurer Jim Chalmers is going to declare the federal government has made a lot of progress repairing the budget when he hands down the mid-year economic and fiscal outlook today.

Now, this will not be a huge moment now because I think there are so many other issues. Australia's budget bottom line is expected to improve by more than $8 billion over the next four years.

They will try and create sort of an economic narrative. But I don't know, Isabel, you've been around a while too, really.
Yes, it'll be reported on. It must be.
The budget is very important.

How else do we run a country? But it just all feels very secondary, doesn't it? Yeah, completely.

And, you know, the first questions in the press conference, I mean, maybe he'll get three on the budget and it will go to this. I mean, people's minds get taken away from these things.

The expenses scandal for the government also miraculously gone away this week because of this. And you know, that's no one's fault.

That's just where people's minds go.

This is the only story that really has of significant national significance to people because there are 15 Australians dead and targeted on the basis of their religious and cultural background.

And that is unacceptable in our country. Completely.
And the sentiment from everyone I've spoken to has just been, you know, shock that this sort of thing could happen here.

It's not something that people associate with Australia and I think

it's like it's almost it's broken in innocence I think for particularly people of my generation, you know younger Australians who were very young in Port Arthur.

This is not something that we see here. This is something you see on television in other countries.
People with long-arm rifles in the street in Bondi. I mean

I have friends who ran for their life and hid in a bathroom.

This has never been something that we've had to deal with and I think there's a mass mental health issue that we'll have to deal with with people who have seen far too much in the last few days.

Isabel, that's right. I think we often think it's over in Europe or America and we have, and we've had lots of success from our intelligence agencies too.
They have thwarted, you know,

and so we've, there's a sort of complacency that comes with that, right? Yeah. It's not us, that's another people's problem.
That's right. We're generally, you know, happy-go-lucky people.

We just love the beach. beach.
And that's why the targeting of the beach, of course, the symbolism of that is

so devastating to our sense of safety because our beaches are like sacred, right?

They are the safe place. Or they were, and I hope will be again.
Isabel, I know it's been a tough week for you. Like, you know,

the only people that matter are the victims and the people affected. But, you know, it's really hard for reporters to turn up and just report on the most horrific events.

So I've excellent job by you and thank you for coming on the podcast. Thanks, PK.
Thanks for having me. That's it for Politics Now today.

Tomorrow we've got the party room with Frank Kelly. For anyone wondering, this won't be our last party room for the year.
We'll still be bringing you the party room every week on the holidays.

So, remember, if you have a question for us, keep sending them to the partyroom at abc.net.au. See you, Isabel.
Bye.