Why a U.S. Women’s Team Loss Could Actually Be A Good Thing

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Right now, the Women's World Cup is being played in Australia and New Zealand.

And earlier this week, the reigning two-time champion, United States team, came within inches of being knocked out by Portugal.

Headed forward, look out there.

A break, a shot up the coast.

That's incredible.

The World Cup almost ended right there for the U.S.

I'm Hanna Rosen.

This is Radio Atlantic.

Today, we're talking soccer because Tuesday's U.S.

game against Portugal, despite being 0-0, was a tectonic shift in women's soccer.

If the U.S.

is not awake to the fact that they are moments potentially out, being out of this tournament,

they better be now.

Just to fully grasp the significance, here are some facts.

There have been eight Women's World Cups.

The U.S.

has won four of those.

The lowest they've ever finished is third place.

And then on Tuesday, they barely escaped crashing out of the group stage.

You can hear from the U.S.

commentators how totally stunned they are after the final whistle.

That's going to do it.

Wow, was all we can say.

And relief, but also disappointment for this U.S.

team, because that is not the response that they wanted to have in this third group match.

Going into this tournament, the U.S.

women's team was looking at a three-peat, meaning going for their third cup in a row.

Now, they're just in survival mode, playing number three ranked Sweden on Sunday.

And for fans like me, this fall from grace is terrifying.

But also I found myself wondering if the U.S.

losing might actually be a good thing.

Now, of course, in my heart, I want our team to win.

So why am I engaging in this perversity?

Because I think it might actually be better for global women's soccer if we lose this one.

And in this episode, which was taped before the Portugal game, I'm going to say that to two longtime members of the U.S.

women's national team, Tobin Heath and Kristen Press.

And they will not like it.

But here's what I'm thinking.

History shows us that women's soccer grows in fits and starts.

You have the 1999 World Cup.

Sue Len Shot and she scores even up again, but it also means that the USA could win the World Cup on this next kick.

Chastain will take it.

The U.S.

wins in front of 90,000 people in the Rose Bowl.

Randy Chastain scores the final penalty kick, rips off her jersey to celebrate, and the image becomes instantly iconic and marks the arrival of room soccer.

Except then, it takes a while to build momentum.

The women who were little girls in the stands during that 99 game have to fight for fans, for a viable league, for fair pay, until they finally become the U.S.

dynasty we know now.

They win two cups in a row, and they win pay equity with the men's team.

But there's no drama in dominance year after year after year.

So for women's soccer to truly become a permanent global sensation, we need rivalries.

We need real competition that takes the game to the next level.

So I'm going to put this question to Heathen Press.

They've played for pro teams abroad and for the National Women's Soccer League, or NWSL, here in the States, and they were on both of the most recent World Cup winning teams.

This year, though, they're sidelined with injuries and using their time to host a YouTube series called The Recap Show, where they talk about the World Cup and share stories about the sport.

Here's our conversation:

Kristen, one dynamic that I've been watching is at some point earlier, most of the players on the national teams came from a small pool of college teams.

Now, so many more of them come from professional women's teams.

I wonder how that changes the dynamic.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

I think that we're in a landscape that's changing quite quickly.

I remember when the first group of players decided to leave college early or not go to college.

And like our generation of players was like shocked and horrified by that because we didn't have that faith in the stability of the league quite yet.

But now it's common, and I think that that speaks to how much progress we're making at a league level.

The NWSL is pushing really hard to set a professional standard that can put players in the position to play for their national team.

And Title IX and the strength of like the college program was so instrumental in in the success of the U.S.

women's national team.

And as that evolves, it does fall on our league to continue to help players develop and find the quality that they need to win at the international level.

It's kind of cool and unique to be you guys because you're moving through this living history.

Like our soccer in the U.S.

is changing so quickly.

Women's soccer, soccer, women's soccer around the world is changing so quickly and you're sort of watching it being built.

It's very cool.

Yeah, I love that.

I say it a different way.

I love that living history.

It's really true.

And what I always say is, like, we're kind of like building the dream and doing it at the same time, because a lot of the things that we've achieved in our careers, when we first started playing, those things didn't even exist yet for us.

And Kristen referenced now the NWSL is in, I want to say, year 11 or 12, which is phenomenal.

You know, the past two leagues had failed, hadn't gotten past the five-year mark.

So even looking at that progress, it's really unique.

Each World Cup, there's a massive change in the landscape of women's football and women's sports globally.

So we're always curious to see what's going to happen.

I think the winner of the World Cup really dictates that as well.

We've witnessed, you know, between 2015 and 2019, the massive shift in the landscape and the opportunities that you both just shared about that came out of those.

This is the unique time to see what's that next shift look like.

Wait, do you guys actually think anything can happen?

Because it's interesting.

Every article out there right now is, oh, the U.S.

is going to have an uphill battle to win its third title in a row because the other teams are catching up.

And I can't tell if that's like juice to make the whole thing interesting.

And if you guys from the inside, like, you've known this for years.

Like, is that accurate?

Did you know that already?

Or are you just doing that to make life more exciting?

Oh, they say that every single day.

Every World Cup.

If you go to any headline of every single World Cup.

But it is also true.

It's true.

And it is true.

It's both at the same time.

It's like I remember my first World Cup.

Like the U.S.

hadn't won in a very long time.

And they were still using the rhetoric.

Oh, the world's catching up.

The world's catching up.

It's going to be harder than ever to win.

And, you know, now with successful leagues in multiple continents, the world is catching up when it comes to investment.

And I think as the prize money continues to go up it'll only encourage federations to continue to invest which is gonna make the tournament better and like ultimately the way I always felt from my first World Cup till now is like great like you want to be at the best you want everyone to be at the best and then when you talk about the three feet it's a really interesting

phenomenon because you know it's the same thing as when you flip a coin each time you flip a coin the odds reset yeah but like emotionally for me, it's like unfathomable that the team could win three in a row.

Yeah, because on like every single World Cup, I would go in being like, It's almost impossible for us to win.

Like, we have, it's so hard.

You have to be perfect.

You have to have so much luck on your side.

You have to have so much excellence.

Like, it's almost impossible.

And then we would win.

And I would be like, oh my gosh, like, that's unfathomable.

So, to imagine doing that three times in a row,

it's overwhelming.

You know, here's now the big scary question, given everything you just said.

Maybe it's better.

Can I even say this?

I mean, I know you guys are rooting for the U.S.

and I'm rooting for the U.S., but maybe it's better for global women's soccer for the U.S.

not to win.

I just finished that.

No.

No, that, you know,

I see what you were trying to do there, but no, absolutely not.

I still think the U.S.

Women's Nash team are torchbearers for not just the fight to like increase investment in women's football, but for all of pay equity globally.

I think the U.S.

Women's Dash team being successful is the number one driver in our sport globally.

getting the recognition and the investment that it deserves.

I think we're still the team and the following that is greatest.

And I think we still affect the landscape of the sport the most.

So I think as much as we kind of want to root sometimes for other countries, I think the best thing that can happen for the sport is actually the Yosamizash team winning again.

I think a lot of opportunity comes from that just because of who we are and what we stand for.

But like Kristen said, with the three-peat, I was thinking like it would be even more devastating not doing it because then you go back to zero, right?

It's not like then try to get the three peat again.

So that's like a lot of years then of history gone.

So I don't want it to reset.

But yeah, we'll see what happens.

I mean, everyone says like anyone can win it.

I think at the end of the day, like it is obviously U.S.

Women's Dash seems to lose.

Okay, just indulge me though, because you guys do debates on your show.

So let me just give me one more round of debate.

I mean, just think about it.

What if it was another team that won, like a surprising team?

It would be so exciting.

And then women's sports would just take root all over the world.

And so many people would be watching everywhere.

And

and like, and then even, even American players would have lots of places to go.

And it would just like establish the whole global sport.

Kristen, what do you think, Kristen?

Yeah, that's like the

problem is you kind of need a bit of infrastructure to affect change, right?

And so England was a great example of like a super success because the English league is doing really well and they have the opportunity to quickly move into large stadiums to capitalize on the success that the English national team had in the Euros.

And so, I think, like, that is sort of where when you asked the question, I thought exactly the same as Tobin.

We are in the position to make the most out of a win because of the investment in the infrastructures that we have.

Obviously, as Americans, we also tend to think that our news is global news.

But I think the history of the team has been to fight for change, and that's just been so ingrained in the the culture of the U.S.

women's national team and I do think that that is contagious and it has been contagious and other countries are inspired by the fight that we've had and also by the winning and like at some point we want that the change the change that we've seen in our country like we want it really quickly to flood into all the countries.

But I do think that realistically we're in the best position to continue to have the biggest impact.

And that's just because of how many people cover it, how many people are watching in our country, where our league is, what stadiums we have to sell tickets in, merchandise, all of those things.

Because ultimately what drives the business is money, right?

And that's what's allowed the U.S.

to have the change and the impact that we've had is

the infrastructure.

and the business of it pushing everything forward.

Yeah, and I would just add, like, I think the worst thing that could happen actually would be if the USB stash team lost and like an England won, just in terms of that infrastructure, because they have the infrastructure to scale success, to Kristen's point.

And we already saw that with the Euros, the massive scale they made just from that tournament alone with a scale of a World Cup.

I think it would really revolutionize European football.

And I think that would be a really competitive advantage because

if they win, they represent all of Europe.

And if we win, we represent, you know, us and our dominance.

And that's that's a whole nother equation.

That's if we have a part two of this podcast, we can get into it.

Wait, but Tobin, are you saying it would be just as good if the UK teams win?

Because they have this totally other model.

Yeah.

And I know that you have some experience with that model where they're attached and promoted to these legendary men's clubs like Man You and Arsenal.

And I also wonder about the advantages and disadvantages of that.

Like, is that an amazing way to promote and grow women's soccer or does it put them in the shadow of men's soccer?

Like you said, it's a completely different model, but I would be more concerned about it being very competitive, a competitive model, but a different one.

And I'm a firm believer in independent ownership for women's teams.

We've seen the success of an Angel City.

I truly believe that if you're under the same umbrella as a men's team, inherently you're always going to be second.

And that's really hard to evolve out of.

And in the U.S., we obviously, we are for women, the number one sport.

And we have, you know, men's soccer in our country, which is number maybe five.

So I think that it's more beneficial for us to be independent because I think our sport for women in our country is number one.

So why would you mimic and then number five sport in our country?

Yeah.

But in the UK,

I think it's complete opposite.

I actually think there is so much benefit for them to be

under the umbrella of their men's teams because of the structures, because of the fan bases, because of the history of what football means in that country.

And I think if they were to win a World Cup, it would be scary the type of scale.

and potential that they could have within those massive structures.

Because even if they're second fiddle to like a little bit less than their men's equivalent, it's a ridiculous scale.

Oh my God, Tobin, but now I feel like that would be great.

Like that you'd have this thing overseas that was this amazing giant scaled opportunity.

We'd have our great U.S.

team and go.

You gotta be careful.

It might sound like you're rooting for England.

Exactly.

You know, I'm curious, what's the experience like from inside?

Like, I think what you're saying, to be completely fair, is that model works in the UK.

You can see why it works in the UK.

Our model works well for us.

But what is the internal experience like of being in a team that is attached to a famous legendary men's club versus the experience of an Angel City woman-owned

team in the US?

Well, I will say my time at Manchester United was pre-Euros.

And so I am actually hopeful that that club and most clubs have taken leaps and bounds, but

I think that Angel City is also kind of a standalone because it's not just independent ownership, it's female ownership.

And so the nature of conversations when we're talking about player needs and team needs at Angel City.

It is like nothing I've ever experienced because I'm speaking to people who truly believe in my value, our value, the team's value, and are doing the job because they want to create and amplify the value that exists in our sport.

Wait, can you elaborate?

Like, what was your sense of Manchester United's approach versus Angel Cities?

Yeah, I think that like to sum it up, it was this idea of investing in the women's game because it's the right thing to do is where I feel like a lot of male executives come from versus investing in the game, in the women's game, because it's an awesome business model that's going to create a lot of value for fans and for stakeholders.

And so, you know, Manchester United, they signed us.

They knew, you know, Tobin and I's reputation of being like fighting for equity and pay, like preceded us there.

So they kind of knew what they were getting.

And to be fair, they had a plan that they shared with us about, you know, building facility for the women and growing.

But it was, you know, the sentiment that we hear all the time: like, oh, it's, I'm doing this, I know it's the right thing to do.

I'm doing this for my daughter.

It's the right thing to do.

And when you talk to Kara Nortman and Julie from Angel City, they're doing it because they believe in it, because they believe it's a great business move and they believe that we're all going to rise, this tide is going to rise together.

We're going to take a short break when we come back.

The 1999 World Cup that changed the sport.

And guess what?

Keith and Press, they were both there.

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I'm thinking back to when you guys started.

So you must have been preteens in 1999

during that Women's World Cup when there was an explosion of interest and the final was in the Rose Bowl and there were 90,000 people there and it was a huge record.

Did that register with you?

Is that the moment when you guys came to soccer consciousness?

Because that was a moment when it felt like everything you were describing was just going to roll out on the red carpet.

It was just going to happen.

Yep.

Yep.

You're absolutely right.

When you talk about kind of this golden generation that was part of 11, 15, 19, all of those finals for the U.S.

Women's Dash team in a World Cup, I was at the opening in New Jersey, the opening game for the U.S.

Women's Dash team in 99.

Kristen was at the Rose Bowl in the final.

If you actually speak to most of the players on the U.S.

Women's Dash team, they were either at one of those games or have like a really powerful story about that game.

But that was the first time I think all of us opened our eyes and said, wow, I want to do that.

You were at the game?

Yeah, I was at the opener.

Kristen was at the

obviously we didn't know each other at the time.

That's huge.

So did you think, oh, soccer is a career?

Like I can make money.

Like it's, it's a thing I can do professionally with my life.

It's so funny because I was such a cocky little kid.

I'm still a cocky little adult.

But I remember being at,

it was the Meadowlands, and I remember being there.

And I came with with my soccer team and I was playing out on the grass.

I had my Miahem jersey on.

We were playing pickup and I remember thinking to myself at that time and I think I was 12 years old, something like that, like, wow, I'm good enough like right now to be out on that field.

Exactly.

And so that's amazing.

And I think that, but like having that level of interest and passion, like when you walked into that stadium and you felt that energy and you looked out on that field and you a

example that kind of that you believed that you could become was so powerful and that's why we are all for structures that exist that when any kid goes into it and that's why for angel city when you walk into that stadium gender completely disappears and i think in that moment what we all felt as little kids that gender had completely disappeared and this was just something amazing and this was an opportunity that we could have in the future kristen what was your experience in the Rose Bowl?

I'm curious.

Yeah, I look back at that.

I actually have a photo of all my team and my sisters and my face painted.

And I can like see it in my eyes when I look at the photo that I was like, I can do that.

Both of you.

And that way, I didn't think I could do it right then.

I wasn't quite ready yet.

But I thought about, you know, I thought that like that was the dream, that was the goal.

Totally honestly, when I got my first call up to the national team, I didn't even know it was a paid job.

I thought that playing for the national team was just like such an honor and such an amazing thing that you weren't even going to get paid.

And I like, it's embarrassing to say that, but I think it's important because...

even our players association has come so far in educating the world on the business of sport and the financial liberation of women is incredibly important for the social progress that we're fighting for and so like you know there will never be a player, well, hopefully not, that goes and has no idea that what they're doing is, has financial value.

But for me, it was just hard eyes looking at something, like looking at women who are being fully valued, appreciated, celebrated at that level with that many people there.

It was life-changing because it was absolutely just seeing a picture that I had never seen before and seeing the opportunity to do something to live this dream and to have it be at that scale.

I will say, like to Kristen's point, when I actually got on the Nash Tim, I wasn't paid because when I came on the Nash Tim, I was just starting college.

So I didn't have that even thought about being on the Nash Tim to get paid.

And for me, it was just an honor.

It was like I wanted to be a part of that team, and what it symbolized was what it did.

And I remember my first world championship was the 2008 Olympics.

And I remember all of my teammates being so stoked that I was on the team because that meant that if we won, they got more prize money because I didn't receive any as a

god.

So they were like, yes, so happy Tobin's on the roster.

Can you actually articulate, just so people listening to this, truly understand, what difference does it make when players get paid?

I know that's a crazy question, but now that you see people now getting paid, making a real living, what does it actually change?

Well, it changes everything.

We want the best players, the best athletes to do this job.

That's what's going to push the game forward.

And it has to be a sustainable lifestyle.

You have to be able to dedicate your life to this sport and have enough money to live the rest of your life for it to be a truly professional sport.

Because even when you're in these like, we're getting paid, but it's not enough scenarios, which we're still working through, you always have this distraction of like, you have to do other things or you have to separate out your time and your days in order to, you know, make enough money to survive.

And I think that just like

decreases the quality of the sport.

What we've fought for our entire careers has been that the next generation of players doesn't need to have another job, doesn't need to work when they're done playing, and doesn't need to worry when their career is coming to an end.

How am I going to continue to make money?

That doesn't have to do clinics on the weekends and appearances four hours away for a couple hundred dollars because they need supplemental income.

That's the goal.

The goal is to let professional women athletes be professional athletes.

Yeah, and I think that's like kind of this new generation's like, this is a new challenge that they're gonna have to navigate.

I mean, I think a lot of our generation, we fought for every single thing that we got and then every single thing that obviously the future of the sport will get.

And it really felt like earning something.

And I know that's a weird thing to say, but when you go from a model where you kind of start with nothing to a model where you win equal pay, and now this is the first time the U.S.

women's national team and men's national team will be paid equally before the tournament even starts, that feels like a lot of foundational like earnings.

And now I look at this generation and I think this is a new generation of professional athlete for women.

And they have a new challenge because they have these individual brands, these individual endorsements that really change, like Kristen said, the way that they

are able to be as professional athletes.

And this is what we've been pushing for, right?

But they don't have that same kind of foundational sense of like earnings, which we had fought for.

But I think it's going to come with a different type of mentality and one that's going to have to kind of evolve through this process with the U.S.

Women's National team because the whole of the U.S.

Women's National Team is greater than any part.

And now the parts are becoming a lot more valuable.

So how does the value of individual parts then affect the value of the whole?

So that'll be interesting to see what that future looks like.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

So what you're saying is you guys had to fight as a team.

Like you had a reason to have this kind of solidarity because you were fighting for such basic rights.

Whereas these guys are coming in with individual brands, probably social media brands, endorsements.

And so they're very much individuals.

And so their challenge is, how then do we have the solidarity?

I mean, individually, they've already made, before this tournament has started, most of them have already made more money than we would have made.

winning 2015 or 2019.

Wow.

So our earnings really depended on the success of the team.

And so it's a very different mindset as a professional now, which we'll have to watch how that plays out.

Right, because you guys wouldn't have even gotten paid unless you won.

Like, they would offer you bonuses, but the whole team had to win.

It wasn't about what each individual player was going to achieve.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the

interesting part of the conversation is like,

we had to win the World Cup to win equal pay.

But did we need the fight for equal pay to win the World Cup?

And like, obviously, that's like an intangible, we'll never know.

But I think everybody that watched the 2019 World Cup could feel that we are playing for something bigger than us, that we had this external motivation that was so inspiring, so uniting.

That I, I'm a spiritual person.

Like, I believe that's why we won.

I believe we won because we had a job to do on behalf of women everywhere.

Now we're going into a World Cup and there has to be a different intangible.

Like this tournament isn't the fight for equal pay for the U.S.

women's national team.

So what is it?

And do you even even need that external motivation to win this tournament?

That's really beautiful.

I mean, what is it?

Do you guys talk about that?

Like, what is that intangible motivation that you think can bring them together?

I mean, they are fighting for history with the 3P.

But I think the tricky thing is there's, what, five players on the team that are really, really the three-peters?

The three-peters.

So they've got to motivate everyone to get on board with their goal.

Yeah, the team's fighting for it, but really there's only a couple individuals and extraordinary individuals that would be winning three.

Others, you know, two, maybe one.

But it's interesting.

I love what you just said about fighting for something more.

I think as a group and as a collective, you rally around something.

I don't know what that something is, but I'm pretty sure we'll see it.

If this team goes all the way to the final, we'll know what that something is.

Maybe it's just for Megan Rapino.

Maybe it's just like a repeat for for Pino.

That's good enough.

You know, we'll just do it for her.

It has been so much fun to talk to you guys.

Basically, what I wanted out of this conversation is to learn to watch these games and see this world the way you both do.

And I feel like you've been amazing guides, and I really appreciate it.

Thank you guys both so much.

Anytime.

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudina Bade.

It was engineered by Rob Smirziak and fact-checked by Yvonne Kim.

Our executive producer is Claudina Bade.

And thank you to managing editor Andrea Valdez.

If you liked this episode, recommend it to a friend.

I'm Hannah Rosen and we'll be back with a new episode every Thursday.