The Problem With Comparing Social Media to Big Tobacco

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Charlie Sheen is an icon of decadence.

I lit the fuse and my life turns into everything it wasn't supposed to be.

He's going the distance.

He was the highest paid TV star of all time.

When it started to change, it was quick.

He kept saying, no, no, no, I'm in the hospital now, but next week I'll be ready for the show.

Now, Charlie's sober.

He's going to tell you the truth.

How do I present this with any class?

I think we're past that, Charlie.

We're past that, yeah.

Somebody call action.

Yeah.

Aka Charlie Sheen, only on Netflix, September 10th.

I'm Hannah Rosen, and this is Radio Atlantic.

So last week, I was talking to a friend of mine who shared this fantasy she has of shipping her kids to a tech-free island where there were no phones, no tablets, no video games, no computers, not even a television.

Now, I've parented three teenagers, and I've had this fantasy myself many, many times.

And like all fantasies of frustrated parents, it's useless.

Like you can practically hear the teen eye rolls in the background.

This episode is my attempt to be useful, to address the problem of teens, their phones, and their mental health from a place of facts and research and actual knowledge.

So this week, I'm going to talk to staff writer Caitlin Tiffany, who writes about tech and online culture.

and who knows that this issue is both urgent, laws are being considered right now, and annoyingly hard to pin down.

Obviously, in eight years of writing about social media, I would not ever argue that it's unfair to criticize these tech companies or that there's not a time to criticize, but it just seems counterproductive to constantly just be blaring the sirens rather than saying anything specific.

Oh my god, I'm so glad to hear you say that.

The word I keep writing down every time, almost every time, I read about teens in social media is broad.

Like I've moved away from hysterical, which is what I used to write down, but I still feel intellectually like it's just too broad.

Yeah, definitely.

And part of why I wanted to talk to Caitlin now is that it's not just parents who are trying to crack this.

It's teachers, the teens themselves, but also legislators.

There is a real hunger to do something, pass something, now.

And last week gave that a big push forward.

Today, the U.S.

Surgeon General released sobering new figures on teen social media use and its effects on their mental health.

Dr.

Vivek Murthy says social media's effect on the mental health of young people isn't fully understood yet.

It is a main contributor to depression, anxiety, and other problems in the nation's teenagers.

So, Caitlin, what exactly did the Surgeon General say last week?

So, the Surgeon General released this 19-page advisory about social media that basically identifies it as a, quote, public health challenge, but also emphasized that there's a lot of research that needs to be done before people can say that social media is quote unquote safe.

So that's kind of an interesting approach.

He's not saying that we need to prove that it's dangerous.

He's saying we need to prove that it's not dangerous.

And he's drawing attention to possible risks of harm, especially for adolescents in like specific developmental stages.

So younger preteen girls 11 to 13, boys 14 to 15 years old, but also acknowledging there are these quote-unquote known evidence gaps.

So it's the most harmful thing that you're losing sleep.

It's the most harmful thing that you're not seeing your friends in person, etc.

But the headline, yeah, is kind of like, everyone pay attention to this.

It could be really bad.

Right.

Okay.

So here is kind of a big question.

What do we know about social media and kids at this point?

What we know is that through the process of doing hundreds of studies, researchers have somewhat narrowed down to some really pertinent questions about when and under which circumstances social media would be bad.

It's not in all circumstances and it's not for everyone.

I know that is very confusing, but that is pretty much what we know.

Yeah, it creates this somewhat frustrating moment where legislators want to do something now.

And I bet the Surgeon General's report will just make that more intense.

But the research doesn't have enough nuance right now.

Like, in order to know what to do, you kind of have to know more precisely what the problem is, but the research just isn't quite there yet.

Right.

Okay, so maybe we should talk about how we got here.

Yeah, so I'd say there are three pretty significant moments we should touch on.

A lot of researchers or people who are interested in this topic point to 2012 as being sort of the saturation point where the iPhone had been out long enough that young kids were starting to have them.

It was also the year Facebook acquired Instagram, which ballooned its growth, led to it launching on Android and becoming sort of a part of everyone's daily lives.

Aaron Powell, Jr.: So, the image we have of a teenager walking around with a phone, looking at whatever they're looking at, Snapchat, Instagram, that started started in 2012.

Yeah, or became sort of the mass phenomenon by 2012.

I remember somebody in my high school having an iPhone in 2007, but he was like the only person that everybody would like line up to play with it.

It wasn't normal yet.

Yeah, 2012 was exactly the year that my then

preteen daughter got a cell phone and that everybody suddenly had one in middle school.

Okay, let's back up because I didn't ask you an important question.

Are you interested in naming your generation?

Just because a lot of this conversation is often framed as generational battles.

So I'm curious to understand where you intersect with social media.

Oh yeah, sure.

I'm a millennial.

So I did not have social media until like the very end of high school.

My senior year, I got a Facebook account.

And then I guess I wasn't on Instagram until I almost graduated from college because I didn't have a smartphone right away.

Aaron Powell, I just think it's important to locate people in where they are.

It's like, are they the alarmed parent generation?

Are they the teenager?

Are they somewhere in the middle?

Yeah, totally.

Okay, so then it's just everybody's walking around with cell phones, and then what happens?

Yeah.

So the next significant turning points in 2017 where there is a bit of a backlash, I think partly driven by some tech personalities talking about how they don't let their kids use screens, but then actually sort of research.

Is that really?

that's one of the things that did it?

Yeah.

That's really funny.

I think it comes up a bit that like Steve Jobs didn't think kids should use technology a lot.

But yeah, 2016, 2017, there's more concern about should kids be spending the whole day looking at their smartphones.

And The Atlantic actually published a really big piece by a researcher named Gene Twengee where the headline was, had smartphones destroyed a generation.

That is such an Atlantic-y headline.

That's actually one of the reasons I really wanted to talk to you because I remember, I remember reading that story.

I just remember having a huge resistance to it, even though I wrote for The Atlantic, just thinking like, wow, that's throwing the gauntlet down.

That's like a really big question.

I mean, I know it had a question mark after it, but it was like, have smartphones destroyed a generation ago?

Yeah.

And it's like, and we think the answer is yes.

Right.

All right.

So what did Twengy Twengy argue in that article?

Yeah.

So she was talking about these numbers that she'd been seeing, which come out regularly from this survey that the National Institute on Drug Abuse conducts, asking adolescents about how happy they are and how they spend their free time.

And she was noticing this correlation between spending a lot of time looking at screens and also expressing unhappiness and depression and suicidal ideation.

That was the first thing that really concerned her.

And then she was also pulling out these more specific data points, like a decrease in the number of teenagers who were driving or going out on dates or who had ever had sex.

And there was the trend line showing that people were saying, I often feel left out of things, or a lot of times I feel lonely, or I get less than seven hours of sleep per night.

Those were concerning to her as well.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So, just to be perfectly clear, the headline says,

X caused Y?

But what the data did was put X next to Y, right?

It was just like in these last few years, teenagers have gotten smartphones.

Also, in these last few years, there's been this marked shift in a lot of markers of wellness.

It was an elbow in the data, like that it was unmissable because it was such a sharp turn.

So it's like we see the sharp turn.

Also, there were cell phones.

There's no causality there, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So she's talking about CDC surveys that were not specifically intended to look at how social media might affect teen mental health.

They were, you know, sort of general assessments of teen behavior and psychology.

And then she was kind of creatively reading them and presenting a very legitimate hypothesis.

But then social science researchers were presented with the challenge then of seeing whether that would bear out.

So, right after her article came out, there's a huge balloon in the amount of research that was conducted.

But yeah, the first step would have just been like, cool hypothesis, let's give it a whirl.

Yeah, okay.

So basically, that's what I thought.

Basically, what's happening between 2017 and now is like, cool hypothesis, let's test it out in lots of different formats.

Let's road test it here and there, and let's just see, like, does it hold up?

So, what were the dynamics that researchers started to hypothesize?

So around this time, the initial question that people had was about screen time overall.

So the next notable moment would have come in 2019 when researchers from Oxford published this study that was looking for correlations between digital technology use and well-being.

And once they found this small correlation, they then sort of set it up against some other things to provide context to readers, which is

innovative, I guess, because it allowed the study to travel pretty far.

Because rather than saying, oh, the association between technology use and well-being is negative 0.049, which is probably meaningless to most people, you can say that the association between technology use and well-being is smaller than the association that's been found between well-being and binge drinking or smoking or even having asthma or wearing glasses.

And it's only very slightly larger than the association between well-being and eating potatoes.

Oh, this is the potato study, right?

Yes, the iconic potato study.

The great potato study.

I remember that study.

And I remember headlines like, screen time is about as dangerous as potatoes.

And I remember finding it also totally unsatisfying because it was like, oh, you know, it's ruining a generation.

No, it's totally cool.

It's fine.

Like, there's no problem.

Don't worry about it.

It was like, neither of those answers seemed correct or were satisfying.

Like you could see as a parent that something historically monumental was happening and you couldn't quite put your finger on it.

And just from my perspective, I neither wanted to be completely, totally alarmed, nor did I want to be like.

it's fine.

Don't worry about it.

You know?

Yeah.

I think the value of the potato study is that it was sort of like resetting the table a bit.

Like the objective, you know, when the researchers talked about the study after it was published, was to kind of acknowledge that screen time as a category is just like too broad to study in a meaningful way because people use screens for so many different things.

You know, they use them to harass and stalk people or they use them to like do a yoga video.

They use them to research their homework.

They use them to mindlessly scroll through TikTok.

Like it would be impossible to get a meaningful answer at like a high level about how screens as a blanket category affects people's lives.

Right, right.

It's useful to have a reset so that we can start narrowing in on what the problem actually is because there is an actual problem, right?

Like depression is rising.

It is a real thing.

I mean, I've looked at the same data set that these researchers are concerned about and they're right.

It's really stark.

Like you look at rates of depression and suicidality among teenage girls, and it's incontrovertible that something is happening.

So, we're worried about something beyond just, you know, we hate Mark Zuckerberg.

Yeah, I mean, the legitimate worry is that there are obvious and measured increases in depression among young people.

There was a big CDC trend report that came out earlier this year that was looking at the data from 2011 to 2021.

So, in 2011, 28% of teenagers said they experienced persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness.

And in 2021, that number had jumped to 42%.

And they saw big jumps in the percentage of high school students who experienced, quote, persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness, a jump in the percentage that considered suicide, as well as they started measuring for the first time the percentage that said they'd experienced poor mental health, including stress and anxiety and depression in the past 30 days that number was 29 percent and for female students 57 percent said they experienced persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness and 69 percent of lgbtq students so those were kind of the dramatic top line numbers that were widely covered and alarming.

Yeah, and I guess we can all imagine there are lots and lots of reasons why young people would feel hopeless or in despair.

But I also will say I've had many conversations with fellow parents who would describe it as night and day.

Like what their child was like before they were deep in social media all day and all night and had no escape from it, and what they were like after that was their reality.

Like people can truly narrate, you know, okay, my child was like this.

They would go in their room and draw.

They would read a book.

Even if they had a bad time at school, they could escape from it.

And then all of a sudden that wasn't possible.

It became like it totally occupied their psyche.

Yeah, definitely.

So, okay, so let me summarize so far.

So, you had the Twangy article, which was like a boom in one direction.

And then you had the potato research, which was the boom the other direction.

And it just sort of flip-flopped back and forth.

There's hysteria, there's the bounce back from hysteria.

And hopefully, what I'm hoping is that since 2012, researchers start to get more specific.

Like they start to narrow in on who's vulnerable and what kinds of behaviors are vulnerable.

Aaron Powell, yeah.

I think once you get past the Oxford study in 2019, you're at a point where you're saying it's not yes or no, and we're done talking about screens.

That's pointless.

Let's talk specifically about social media and let's pull the data out into more specific segments so that we can be talking about specific populations, because it's also a waste of our time to say screens do X to everyone all the time.

Okay, so you and I have had this really lovely, clarifying academic discussion, but the world doesn't necessarily have patience for our lovely little academic discussion because there is this growing urgency for regulatory or legislative intervention, and it's kind of becoming hard to resist.

Yeah, so I think the question of like regulatory or legislative intervention has been much more urgent and frequently asked in the last couple of years since the Facebook files were leaked by Frances Haugen.

To timestamp, this was in the fall of 2021.

Frances Haugen, who was an employee at Facebook, leaked a huge batch of documents from the company to a bunch of journalists.

And in the Facebook files, the most dramatic revelation was this collection of slides presenting internal research that Facebook had done, where teen girls expressly said Instagram makes me feel bad about myself or causes all of these problems for me and my emotional life and the thing that was missing from a lot of the conversation around those slides was that they were conducted not scientifically like admittedly not scientifically not for scientific purposes so there's a pretty big contrast between that and the sort of like decades of studies proving that cigarettes cause cancer.

But the takeaway from the Francis Haugen leak was that meme of like Facebook knew, like Facebook knew it was doing this.

And so that was kind of transitioned quite smoothly and quickly into this comparison to big tobacco.

Right.

Which is super common now.

And I get why people use these metaphors.

I just like worry about how literal people take them sometimes because

cigarettes do not have societal benefits and people died horrifically of lung cancer.

That is simply not the same thing as the questions that we have about social media.

Like tobacco is bad for everyone, full stop.

If you smoke cigarettes, that's bad for you.

And there's no debate about that.

And social media can be bad for some people in certain circumstances, but it's also would be pretty ridiculous, I think, to argue that it has no benefits whatsoever.

Right.

And it's not as simple as saying, drop the cigarette.

It's going to kill you.

This is so helpful.

I already understand so much more than I did, you know, half an hour ago when we started this conversation.

For me, this is important and satisfying because almost everything I read in the popular media, like like nothing feels specific enough to me.

So that's basically what I'm looking for.

It's like, oh, we're about to enter this era where we're going to haul people up to the hill and make all this legislation.

But before I know how to think about all that legislation or if I think it's the right thing to do or not the right thing to do, I just feel like I need to understand a little better.

what the problem is and like who we're targeting and what the research shows and just understand it a little better.

Yeah, definitely.

If there are big policy changes now, it will be hard to, first of all, prove what kind of effect they have, and second of all, reverse them if they don't work.

So the stakes are really high.

We should definitely figure out what we're doing before we do it.

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Okay, that brings us to now.

So let's you and I do it.

Let's get into the specifics.

What concrete things do researchers actually know and what directions are they pointing in now?

Yeah, I think there are still questions that remain to be answered.

And hopefully some of those will come as we've had more time to do like longer studies.

There's one that's being done right now that started in 2016 that's looking at the same group over a period of 10 years.

So you can maybe identify specifically cause and effect.

But there's been some smaller scale ones that I think pretty convincingly prove that there are these windows of acute vulnerability for teenagers and specifically for young girls between 11 and 13 and boys between 14 and 15.

But for girls, it's even more apparent and there are pretty clear relations between specific mental health outcomes.

So as social media use goes up, the satisfaction in their appearance goes sharply down in a study that came out last year.

So those things are starting to be repeated more clearly, which also gives important clues as to the mechanisms of how social media use would affect somebody's mental health.

Because like in that case, that's obviously an issue of like of body image and social comparison, which is about the platform itself.

Whereas some other studies have wondered maybe it's not anything that they're doing online.

Maybe it's just the fact that being on your phone means that you sleep less or go outside less or hang out with your friends in person less.

So if that's the case, you know, that becomes maybe more of an issue of parenting.

Then if it is specifically about the content they're being served or about about the sort of basic structure of the app, like that's really good to know and is important to act on.

I think it is obviously still difficult to say, like, what are you going to do about the fact that Instagram makes girls feel bad about the way that they look?

That's a pretty

broad problem with a lot of cultural history and baggage, but it's at least like something to focus on.

It's funny.

A lot of this is like, it sort of ends up in a common sense realm.

I have a parent hat now.

So like everything else, it requires knowing the child.

And whether it's a teacher who knows the child or a parent or friends, it's like there are young girls whose brains are still developing, who are just past puberty, who are maybe self-conscious.

And social media can exacerbate, it sounds like, existing dynamics that girls have struggled with forever.

And so if you know that there's a kid who's just especially vulnerable to those dynamics, and let's say you notice them up all night or not sleeping or really fixated on these things.

Yeah, I think that's right.

Like as a parent, I've definitely had the instinct of like, get off your damn phone.

But it seems like if you're actually looking for vulnerability, it's a little more precise than that.

Yeah, and I think it sounds kind of hoagie to be like, just talk to your kids.

But these do seem to be things that kids are pretty articulate about.

So the dynamics they're talking about with young girls, are they just just the dynamics of time immemorial?

Like, do they ever get into, you know, is it scrolling that's the problem?

Is it scrolling for X number of hours?

Is it your close friends or is it looking at pictures of the Kardashians?

Like, what

have they ever like honed in on sort of what is the behavior that leaves you feeling vulnerable?

Like, is it passive or active?

Is it posting pictures or just looking at other people's pictures?

Aaron Powell, yeah.

There was a period where there was a lot of interest in that distinction between active and passive use.

People sort of arguing that there might be a difference in terms of how social media affects you, whether you're actively messaging people and posting stuff, and that might be good, whereas passively scrolling and, you know, just seeing things that make you feel bad would be worse.

But it kind of came down to these aren't meaningful distinctions because there's good active use and there's destructive active use and there's good passive use.

You know, I spend a lot of time time scrolling on my phone because I'm reading the Atlantic,

which is passive use

of my phone.

And there's bad passive use, which would be like when you're scrolling and you don't know why and you didn't want to be and it makes you feel bad.

Got it.

So it's not as mechanistic as what you are doing.

What matters is who you are.

at the moment that you're doing it and what your orientation towards it is.

Like if you happen to be in a moment of distress and you're in a certain age, it doesn't matter if you're using it actively or passively.

Social media is going to amplify your distress.

Aaron Powell, Jr.: Yeah, and there's been some more recent research that suggests that it could matter how you think about social media as well.

So if you feel like social media is fun, it's where I connect with my friends.

I use it for the X reason and then I stop using it because I'm in control.

Like in those situations, it can be related to positive outcomes as opposed to negative outcomes.

Negative outcomes are more tied to feeling like I have no control over this and I'm spending so much time doing it and I don't want to be.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's important too.

So that is, that's actually, there's another parenting lesson in there.

If you can somehow orient your kid towards a feeling of control, like use this in a way that benefits you and don't let it use you.

Again, very commonsensical, but maybe that's that gives you another tool.

Like I'm not just yelling at you because you're on your phone.

I'm trying to understand how you are orienting yourself and managing the time that you're on your phone and whether it's serving you or it's making you feel worse.

So despite the research being incomplete and the questions being thorny and philosophical, there are going to be things proposed.

So what do you know about the things that have already been proposed?

So there are state laws that have been passed or proposed in many states already that would make it so that minors can't be on social media without parental permission.

Aaron Powell, that's age gating, right?

That's the age-gating solution, yeah, that a lot of pundits have been sort of advocating for for the past couple of years, including Francis Haugen.

I think those will face a lot of challenges, including like in enforceability and just like First Amendment issues.

A lot of free speech issue groups would say that it's not productive to just prohibit young people from speaking in public.

I think just like personally, it just seems very punitive, even if that's not how people like mean it to come off to kids.

Like how else are they going to receive it?

And it just, it's a more dramatic measure than I think people are giving credit for because you can say like, hey, well, we age gate other things.

You can't drive until X age.

You can't drink until X age.

Why not say you can't have an Instagram until X age?

But you are in effect yanking something away from millions of teenagers, some of whom might be like really, I don't know, emotionally dependent on it it or even just like creatively dependent or like really enjoy using it and it's not harming them.

And it just seems really, it's really dramatic and really abrupt and something that should only be considered if there's like absolutely a rock solid evidence base, in my opinion.

Interesting.

I also don't know how you would measure this at all, but it does create a sense of distrust between generations because

you could make the argument as a parent that smoking is inherently bad.

You can't smoke as a kid.

Drinking is, you know, you're just not ready to drink.

You're not ready to drive a car.

But I don't know that a kid would fully get on board with the idea that you're not ready to use any social media at all.

Like, they could understand, okay, there are some dangers out there and we should talk about it and sort of watch for vulnerabilities.

But like an NO, I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Yeah.

Okay, so are there other proposals that you've seen that seem interesting or dangerous?

Yeah, I think the FTC is trying to be a bit more creative about how to limit Facebook and Instagram's ability to profit off of targeted advertising towards teens, which some people would maybe think of as being productive because it eliminates a little bit of their profit motive to keep teens on the app all the time.

You know, pro privacy, I think that's a good idea.

It's pretty complicated in that it's not just about what Facebook does, but yeah, I mean, I think that's a good thing to aim for for sure.

Now, how would that address the original problem we discussed, which is depression?

Yeah.

Like, I feel like a lot of this is sort of like setting up a kind of like, rein those guys in.

But the problem we started out with was that social media was making kids distressed.

Yeah.

I guess this gets at why it's so important for the research to identify the specific problems and the specific mechanisms.

Because, like, if the main way that social media is causing depression or anxiety in teens is because it's preventing them from getting enough sleep and it's preventing them from seeing their friends in public, just purely hypothetically, like then what you could like deduce from that is that like, okay, maybe these products are just too addictive and our kids are being sort of coerced into staying on them for too long.

And it's not about the content.

It's just about purely how much time they're taking away from things that make them happier and healthier.

So in that situation, it's a little bit more obvious why reducing Instagram's incentive to like keep kids on the app and to

get more data from them that they can monetize and serve them more ads.

Like Instagram would be more incentivized to focus on adults and

not serve as many ads to kids.

And

personally, I don't think like Instagram is just like ruthlessly driven to extract all monetary value from children, even though, again, I don't want to be in the position of like defending a corporation.

But that's sort of the logic, and that's sort of the reason why you have to get more specific.

And if the answer is that the main way that Instagram causes depression is through negative social comparison and like poor body image instigated by seeing all of these images of models, like no, probably privacy protection isn't going to solve that problem.

We'd have to come up with something else.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: You know, we talked about this.

It's hard to talk about.

But like, we get stuck in a moment or sort of like in the same way we get stuck in a musical moment, we get stuck in a kind of social media moment.

And meanwhile, like, people have moved along.

They're using different platforms.

They're kind of navigating it much more deftly, say, than the generation or even the two years before them.

Yeah.

I always sort of like marvel at my younger sister's levels of adjustment and happiness.

But I guess, I mean, this is not scientific at all.

This is just like a personal pet theory based on nothing except anecdotal experience.

But like they are a little bit more squarely in this demographic of concern.

I think two of them would be considered Gen Z.

And my understanding from watching them or talking to them is like they really experienced very little strife around social media because it felt pretty natural to them.

You know, they post goofy, like ugly sometimes pictures of themselves, and you know, that's like funny and fun for them.

I sometimes wonder if there is like a kind of narrow band of people, like maybe around my age or a little bit younger, who were forced to adapt to these things in real time in the middle of puberty, which made it like maybe more fraught than if you had just always thought of Instagram as something that existed and something that you were going to one day use.

Aaron Powell, you know, that is such a good point.

I mean, it's anecdotal, of course, but we do talk about this research as if these teenagers are fixed in time.

Like there was this one band of teenagers, and maybe they got the onslaught.

And then as time went on, the teenagers got more adjusted.

Like they themselves changed and sort of caught up with things.

So maybe the teenagers we're legislating for are not the same teenagers we studied.

And the problems of the earlier set of young people, they just might not be the same as the problems of teenagers now.

Yeah, because like I did have a lot of anxiety around Instagram in my early 20s when I first had it and have gone through periods like, you know, during breakups where Instagram is like absolutely a toxic minefield for me in many ways, including like all the body image stuff we've been talking about.

but but i sometimes do yeah just think like huh maybe there's something about like kind of always having this and sort of deciding how to use it yourself and just be like well it exists it's part of life yeah no i mean there's a there's actually a really good lesson in there because what you're describing about your sisters is they use it like it exists they know the name of it their older sister used it lots of people use it it's not this new crazy thing and so they just do with it what they want you know, and they kind of like make it work for them.

Like every once in a while, it's going to get you down.

But if you can use it how you want to use it, then sure, why not?

Like it must seem absolutely absurd, these discussions about like end it tomorrow.

It's like, why?

You know, I'm just posting dumb pictures of my friends.

Yeah.

You know, at so many stages of this, I've just wanted to push it away and not think about it.

But the truth is, like, the depression rates keep rising.

Like, there is something at the heart of this.

I don't know that we've made all the connections properly yet, but there is something there that we should keep paying attention to.

What do you think the next few years are going to look like?

Like what's the best case and worst case scenario for how we reign this in?

Now that the Surgeon General has said time to do something about it.

Like I bet if you look back in history, it's like the surgeon general issues a report.

It's a symbolic moment and the culture around things changes.

What is the best case and worst case for social media?

Aaron Powell, I think worst case would be what we were talking about, just really dramatic measures like a blanket age gate that isn't based in evidence and there's kind of no way to undo it and no way to see what effect it has for 10 years.

I think that's the worst case scenario.

I think best case scenario would be kind of where we are, like watching people sort of chip away at the problem, find these specific places where we can intervene, whether that's educating teenagers, educating parents, or whether it's putting pressure on Facebook to do things like share data with researchers, which they can be pretty stingy about.

I think like that would be really productive.

I think like part of the issue that we keep running into with this is that there's not like a great headline and there's not a silver bullet.

So it is sort of just like the boring answer of like, well, we need to keep learning.

Right.

That would be the sexy Atlantic headlines.

Yeah.

Real nerds here.

Yeah.

It'd be like, well, let's figure out how social media is affecting the mental health of teenagers and put into place

small measures to ameliorate it.

I would totally, totally read that article.

Yeah.

And start over from scratch in two years once we are no longer even using any of these platforms we've been talking about.

Right.

That's the subhead.

Excellent.

Excellent.

Okay, we've solved the problem.

This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Kevin Townsend.

It was edited by Theo Balcombe.

Engineering by Rob Smirciak.

Claudina Bade is the executive producer of Audio at the Atlantic.

Our fact checkers are Isabel Christo and Will Gordon.

Thank you also to managing editor Andrea Valdez and executive editor Adrienne LaFrance.

Our podcast team includes Jocelyn Frank, Becca Rashid, Ethan Brooks, AC Valdez, and Van Newkirk.

If you enjoyed this episode, tell your friends, your frenemies, and your loose acquaintances.

If you want to get in touch with us, we're at radio at theatlantic.com.

We especially want to hear from teens on this episode.

I'm Hannah Rosen.

Thank you for listening, and we'll be back next week.

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