Nan Whaley

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Welcome to The Ticket.

I'm Isaac DeVer.

Now the federal government still doesn't have a national plan, so state and local governments around the country have had to figure out what to do as they run short on money.

Many parts of the country will likely see frontline workers laid off and essential services cut, and watch those cuts reverberate through cities and towns in major ways.

These are going to be tough times ahead.

People are frightened, many are out of work, and that's all on top of the problems that existed in America before this pandemic, like what's been brought out by the death of George Floyd and the violent protests that it set off.

This is one of those places where the abstract conversation about government runs up against reality.

Absent a federal bailout, there are going to have to be cuts to police and other first responders, which will mean more strain on those who remain and fewer on the job to respond if and when they are needed.

So for today's episode, I'm going to talk to a local leader who's facing these challenges, someone who had already had a pretty nutty year of crisis before this in a city that has been trying to climb back for years.

Nan Whaley is the mayor of Dayton, Ohio.

Dayton was one of the hardest hit cities in the 2008 Great Recession, something it was still coming back from when the pandemic arrived.

There was a mass shooting in August, which you may remember happened at the same time as the El Paso mass shooting.

And when we spoke on Thursday, it was the one-year anniversary of a devastating set of tornadoes that hit the city.

Whaley tries to stay upbeat, but she told me she's not surprised with how even face masks have become a divided issue.

She told me she's worried about what happens if cities around the country don't get more help.

And that led to a conversation about our social fabric in these times: what's holding, and what might not.

Take a listen.

Nan Whaley, thanks for joining us here on the Ticket.

I'm glad to be here.

Glad to be on the ticket.

So

I'm tired of being in the shutdown, the lockdown here.

I think everyone is.

I'm wondering, like, where is your state of mind on this?

You are a politician.

I am sure you want to be out with people already.

Yeah,

I definitely have COVID fatigue.

You know, not having to be able to see people or saying to folks see you on the other side or seeing people virtually, which has been really interesting.

the uniqueness of that has certainly worn off and then there's a frustration level too because of what's on the other side is probably going to be some really tough economic and social fallout in the community that we'll we'll see you know kind of like after you have we just had the one year anniversary of the tornado so we're like you know we're in this 10-week 15 20 week period where we're all in the tornado and then you get out of your house and you're like, okay, what damage has been done, right?

I'm not really looking forward to that that much either, frankly, because we'll see some i think some pretty significant scars in the community that

uh will will be painful to have to work through what do things look like right now i mean you must be getting out just a little bit uh for things even if it's only going to the grocery store but is it clear in the city already that there has been a big impact from this Sure, yeah, I mean, we've seen some impact on, number one, the homicide rates are up like 50% in the city and, you know, in cities across the state.

So we're on a call every day with mayors across the state of ohio and cincinnati's up about 170 percent so all cities are seeing that what what explains that uh well we have theories uh you know i think some of it is uh straight up boredom lack of movement in circles that are the underground economy is being affected by covid and so actions are being taken by that some of it's uh boredom Unfortunately, we're also seeing an uptick in our accidental overdose deaths.

And that we knew that was like a hypothesis we had.

And so, really, you know, here you have a stay-at-home order, and most people that are addicted to opioids, they actually use together, and so it's harder to use together.

And so, then their buddy is not next to them to perform Narcan or naloxone.

And so, we have seen an uptick there.

Our mental health numbers are up.

And I think we're just kind of scratching the surface on that.

We'll see more after.

And then, you know, there's the privilege discussion that's also tough, particularly for women uh that have to go to work and just like the lack of child care is just just killer on how they're trying to stitch this together and and that's been i think i don't have any children as you know isaac but it's been especially frustrating to me because it's been women are the ones that do most the child care in general and uh government and society has basically told women again oh yeah you still work but you figured this out and i find it really incredibly offensive and there's been no real action around it or even very much discussion And then, of course, the unemployment rate is around 20% in the county.

And I think that will get worse in mid to late July is my hypothesis as PPP runs out and unemployments, I think, like July 25th.

Yeah.

There are already local governments that are feeling the hit of this, but like say it's probably just the beginning of the hit of it, right?

And there's a stat that you have cited that in 2008, Dayton was the second hardest hit city in the country after after Detroit.

Yes.

So, I mean, people don't really know where Dayton is located.

It's on the I-75 corridor, three and a half hours south of Detroit.

And back in the 60s and 70s, when the Great Migration happened, you know, even before that, but particularly in the 60s and 70s, the migration happened to us, same as Detroit, 30s, 40s,

up from actually both the Appalachian migration from Kentucky and the Jim Crow South moved up.

We were actually called Little Detroit.

Our whole system was basically manufacturing of aerospace and at that time automobiles, but now it's aerospace and auto.

So when the Great Recession happened and the auto industry was collapsing, Detroit was hit, but so was Dayton.

We lost around 16% of the whole job numbers.

I mean, it's just enormous.

So that's 2008.

How long do you feel the effects of it?

We still have not recovered.

So Dayton is still in 2020 now looking ahead to what's going to come from this, still dealing with 2008.

Right.

One-third of the regions in the country, or maybe it would now be one-fourth, but a lot of Ohio regions did not ever fully get back to the pre-job numbers of before the Great Recession.

And the Dayton region is one of them.

So is there any way, I mean, you were saying you guys were able to prepare somewhat for the 2008 hit, but it seems like you can't really prepare for this one.

And like, if I, nobody can, right?

There's not, there's not like a trick to do here right like mcconnell didn't mcconnell like that stupid comment like oh they're just trying to take care of their budgets because they weren't prepared and i was like who prepares for a pandemic i don't think anybody in december was talking pandemic in america so i was like really uh dude that's really difficult to do so i don't know anybody in december that was like doing their budget and say i'm really ready for coronavirus 19 you know

I mean, is there anything to do or is it just you got to see what kind of pain comes in here and then deal with that?

Oh, I mean, we immediately started retrenching in the city organization, right?

So for social distancing and for savings, we furloughed a fourth of the workforce.

We, you know, immediately said, okay, no expenses that weren't COVID related.

We've sent to our directors to say, okay, what will an 18% cup look like?

Trying to prepare what that would be.

So we're trying to figure it out.

And like, we're still hoping that we get some federal help.

You know, we've been through our share of some of some tragedies in Dayton and they felt very lonely.

I don't feel very lonely in this one.

The connections between all of us going through this, sharing different ideas, both at the state level and national.

You know, I just got off a call that we've had every week for the past 10 weeks with Bloomberg Harvard of hundreds of mayors sharing ideas.

And it's been really helpful.

Like, you know, when they closed today, they were like, you've got to start doing some vaccination planning.

So I texted the Ohio mayor.

It's like, we've got to discuss this.

So, you know, that's been very helpful for us to think.

And that's been very different and very less, I mean, quite frankly, a lot less lonely than I felt in the Great Recession and I felt during the shootings and the tornadoes.

Let me take you back to the budget question, which you touched on earlier.

One of the things that we are hearing out of people in Washington is

Republican leaders in Washington, I should say, is that there shouldn't be bailout money for affected states.

And what they say is blue states should learn to live within their means.

That is something that has gotten a lot of pushback from a lot of places.

But what's interesting about your situation is Ohio is not a blue state.

And you are a Democratic mayor and you...

I think now, Isaac, unlike the national media, I think it's a purple state.

It's just like to go on the record.

Oh, it's certainly not a blue state.

Right.

Right.

And it is a state that Donald Trump won by a lot.

And it is a state that has a Republican governor and one Democratic senator, one Republican senator.

But it's not a state that is prime Democratic territory.

It's hard to be a Democrat sometimes in Ohio, correct.

But you want a bailout.

You want money from the federal government to help take care of the shortfalls that are here.

Correct.

So what are the people in Washington not getting about that?

Well, I think, I mean, I think it shows just how out of touch they are about what this money is going to.

I mean, for the locals, it's the front lines.

It's police officers and firefighters who, by the way, voted for Trump.

It's public works employees and people that pick up the trash.

I mean, this is not fancy stuff.

This is like the living and dying on the ground that's going in mid-sized cities in Ohio and in America.

And frankly, you know, if you look to Texas, for example, which another red state saying, hey, we need help, we had 111 mayors sign on

for help.

And I would guess like 98 of them are probably Republican.

So I think that that's what they're missing.

This worry about like pensions.

Like Ohio doesn't have issues with a pension system.

This is just straight up, you know, for the state, it's around education education and healthcare.

And for the cities, it's about frontline services that are saving your life.

I feel like almost that, I think what they're doing is really egregious now is basically they're playing chicken with us.

And they do this at their own peril, frankly, because we are talking about workers that, again,

they're probably likely their voters.

I mean, so you think you're going to have to fire police officers and firefighters in Dayton if you don't get more federal money?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

I mean, 60% of the budget is police and fire.

Ohio is a municipal income state.

So 70% of the budget of the city of Dayton comes from earnings tax.

So if people aren't working, you don't have a budget.

So it immediately falls out.

I think in July or August after the unemployment runs out.

And all the other cities in Ohio are in the same boat.

And I think we all went around and we think like anyone, anywhere from 15 to 25% is where the Ohio mayors are thinking the trouble will be.

So what are we talking about?

Like Like dozens of police officers, hundreds of police officers?

No, not yet.

So, it'll like, so when 60% of the budget is police and fire, you just can't get to an 18% cut without doing something about police and fire.

And, and, you know, we've already cut this enormously through the Great Recession and even before.

So, uh, it seems like what that means for the city, though, is like, if you're looking at already a spike in homicides

and overdoses, and you're going to look forward

likely cuts to police and fire and probably to like trash pickup, that kind of thing.

Right.

What does that mean for the way a city functions?

Well, I just don't think it will function well.

I mean, I think that's what we're saying is,

you know, you're talking about we don't really do anything else.

I guess that's my point.

You know, if you add, if you have police and fire at 60% and then you add public works, we're at like 78%.

So what's the rest?

It's like, okay, a little bit of recreation.

Yeah.

And we might decide we're not going to do any recreation anymore.

We're just going to take that off.

That could actually happen, right?

So you just do like the very, very basic services in cities.

You're still going to have to cut them because it's still not enough to get to that bottom line.

And if you don't do recreation, then you don't.

You were saying that people think that boredom is one of the things that's

true, absolutely.

Yeah.

And I mean, and like, you know, I've said to, you know, like the police labor union, like, look, this is getting really tough.

He's like, I completely know.

They, they they all know and i mean they don't and it's egregious frankly you'll bail out airlines you'll bail out like every other thing known to man but not police or fire are you serious and it's not like everything is like calm otherwise right we're seeing what is happening in in minneapolis uh with uh george floyd who was killed and and the violence that has erupted after that

And one of the things that I have been struck by over the course of these now three months of this lockdown is that the social fabric has held as much as it has.

And even as you're talking about homicides being on the rise, and obviously there are other things that are going on, as domestic violence cases, the overdoses you're dying,

is that

things have not

spilled over in the way that we are seeing happening in Minneapolis right now.

That's because of this incident with this man who was killed by the police officers.

Does that worry you?

Just think about things, whether it's because of some spark that sets it off or just in general that we could reach a point where

the social fabric does start to tear and then you have to figure out what to do about it.

Oh yeah, I mean, I think if any mayor tells you they don't worry about what's happening in Minneapolis, happening in their city, they're

really naive.

or they're not telling you the truth.

I remember when Freddie Gray happened in Baltimore, Baltimore and Mayor Coleman was the mayor of Columbus and he was friends with Mayor Rawlings-Blake.

And so I called and said, you know, have you checked in on her, how is she doing?

I said, oh yeah, you know, it's very tough, Nan.

And he just said, you know, because by the grace of God, we all go.

And I mean, the social fabric, you do all, you do a lot of work on it in your community, but there are things just you just don't control and you have to recognize that too.

And

even when Minneapolis happens, That has affected in my community too.

And so

they're not isolated.

It seems seems like when you think about all of that and then the possibility of, or the likelihood, I guess, of police cuts and other services cuts, and it's just,

it really does seem to be creating a very dangerous situation.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And honestly,

there's just not much else that we do.

So, I mean, of course, we're going to try to protect frontline services, but that's really, if you only do frontline services,

what are you going to do?

All right, let's take a short break.

We'll be back with more with Mayor Nan Whaley in a moment.

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I want to ask you about one of the things in relation to the pandemic that you've used your bully pulpit to talk about, which is face masks.

And this issue,

it's confusing to me how this has actually become quite the issue that it has been um you said a couple weeks ago that you think that anybody who doesn't wear masks is being uh or who's complaining about wearing masks being unpatriotic and that they should think about the sacrifices that they are being asked to make right now in comparison to the world war ii generation correct i stand by that statement

tell me what you mean by that is it because

uh

you have protests around the country of people who are saying that they shouldn't do this or all these people who it's become like a hot thing to take an iPhone video of yourself having a fight with some store manager about not going in with a face mask on.

I just felt like when I think about, you know, I think about generations and what generations are going to be remembered for.

And what are the flashpoints of those generational times when you think about history?

And of course, they're called the greatest generation.

They really were.

You know, it would be my grandparents.

And I'm not talking about individuals.

I'm talking about the collective of that whole group, right?

So in every, I want to be clear, every generation, there are terrific people and terrible people.

So, but that generation was asked to do amazingly difficult actions for the greater good.

You know, I mean, first of all, like, hey, giving your life for your country regardless of class, something that we haven't done since.

Women going to work to build what needed to be built and doing things that they were completely not socialized for during that time and not comfortable with.

It really, I think, helped propel the next generation around

women's issues.

You know, even to the stories of, you know, you can only shop on certain days and you can only, you have, you know, we have rations for how much food you're going to get.

Think about that.

I mean, you know, we are upset about the grocery store right now.

This generation was only allowed so many fruits and vegetables, right, at the store so i mean when you think about all of the things they did to sacrifice for our country and the countries of others and they did it pretty quietly i mean there were i'm sure

eight or nine percent that was like this is bull i don't even agree with america which is fine but you know the great collective was all in

and you compare that to now where

Really what is happening, this whole mask, the data shows that it's about you caring for your neighbor.

It's really not even about you.

It's about your neighbor.

And we can't even do that.

I just really wonder where the social fabric of our country is, you know, because patriotism to me is, you know, not necessarily doing something that benefits me personally, but benefits my country, my community.

And

to turn that away and say, I'm not interested in doing that just because I don't like it on my face or I have a right not to.

Well, yeah, I mean, Okay, but you know, I don't think that's really like being in it for America.

And And so I just

think it's painful.

Is it that that 8% or 9% that you were talking about that might have been there in the World War II generation is just more visible now?

Is more that where, you know, that's that there would have been essentially the same kind of people who are making those iPhone videos now

who they were around in the 1930s and 40s.

Maybe they have more agency now than they did.

That could be.

I mean, that could be, but I think it's like, I think it's probably triple 8% here.

I mean, I'm probably guessing.

I think it's probably 25%.

Yeah.

And then what really bothers me is they think they're being patriotic by not wearing a mask.

I find that completely wrong.

It seems like some of it is that maybe the sacrifice that's being asked for is so small to wrap a scarf around your mouth that you can make a big deal out of something so small.

Whereas like if the stakes are your life is on the line because you are going to war or like you could be bombed at any moment, right?

Like that, that

maybe changes how people think about it.

I don't know, Isaac.

I mean, I think these questions are issues of life or death.

And we were learning more and more about this pandemic and this disease.

And I mean, I just think of that generation when doctors and scientists got on TV and said, you know, go take everything and bury it in the backyard.

They'd be like, okay, I'm going to do that.

And this fight around the collective versus the individual is, I think, stacked too far on the individual.

I really do.

And I think patriotism is something that's about the collective.

Yeah.

I find that when people say, like, oh, this is like the Nazis.

Well, like, there was someone who a couple weeks ago was comparing

being told to stay at home to being like on the cattle car going to the camps.

And like, they're like,

I mean, people are being asked for the most part to like hang out in their nice homes with their couches and refrigerators and microwaves.

It is,

I just am struck by that we are fighting over this.

Like it seems like we will fight over everything and anything.

And to your point, like this, I guess, is familiar to you in Ohio as

one of these places where so much of the cross currents of national politics hit each other.

Right.

I'm not surprised by it.

I expected it.

I mean, what was amazing for the early part of it in March is how bipartisan the spirit was and then how I saw it fall apart.

And I mean it's sad.

It's sad to witness that, but I'm not really surprised, unfortunately.

And I mean, look, I find the mask uncomfortable.

It's like, you know, a pain.

I don't think anybody likes wearing a mask.

Yeah, nobody likes it.

It's not like, oh yeah, this is the best experience ever.

You know, I mean, goodness gracious.

You know, your face is hot.

It's the summer.

I mean, I get it.

But like, I care about my fellow Daytonians and my fellow, you know, fellow Americans more.

And yeah, that's an inconvenience I'm willing to bear for my community.

You have had

a crazy year just in the last calendar year.

The tornadoes.

Just celebrated the one-year anniversary.

Right.

One year since tornadoes hit Dayton.

There was that mass shooting.

Now this.

I wonder, though,

when the shooting happened, President Trump came to Dayton

and

you spent a little bit of time with him.

If you could say something to him about this directly, like what would you say to him?

What part of this do you focus on in talking to him about?

I think the only thing that President Trump cares about is himself.

What I would say is do yourself a favor.

You know, this is something that is clearly in your political interest to do.

Take this issue away from the Democrats.

I mean, I really, that's what I'm advocating for.

You've spent so much of the

last year

in a consoler role and helping people get through these

tragedies and rough times that have hit them.

We have seen a real lack of that on the national level.

I'm wondering what you think, given your experience, needs to be said and needs to be done as people are continuing to feel the hit of this and process all the different ways that it is affecting them, whether it's through a death or job loss or whatever else.

I don't see a lot of empathy in the national dialogue at all right now.

And

I recognize there's not a lot of women besides the speaker there.

And it's,

I have learned and appreciates the value of vulnerability and leading through being vulnerable.

And that means to show that you're human, to show that this is hard on you too.

but to be resolved and honestly resolved that you're going to get through it, you know, both as a person and as a community.

And I think that's hard to do.

I'm not saying like, you know, it's easy.

And certainly if I had gone through 2019 and 2014, I wouldn't have been as comfortable with myself, to be as honest with people of Dayton about myself.

I wouldn't have been able, I don't think I would have been able to leap through this as I have in this past year.

But I mean, I just long for leadership that shows some empathy.

And I long for leadership that even if I don't agree with, I can respect.

And, you know, I think that's why I do appreciate Governor DeWine.

I mean, we do not agree.

I mean, even through the pandemic, I have disagreed with him.

But I respect him.

And I know, like, I learned this from the shooting, that he does have empathy.

And I long for that kind of leadership in the federal government.

that's i think that's what i miss the most and like look i'll go back to dwine you know i ran for for governor in the primary to run against Mike DeWine.

I mean, there are things we hardly disagree on.

But like, I do believe, and it does give me comfort as a leader, that while I might disagree with him, I know and he shows that he cares about the state first.

And I do not believe that the president does.

I think the president cares about himself first.

You want leaders that do put and sacrifice for their community, their state, or their country before themselves.

And yeah, you find comfort in that as another leader.

Absolutely.

All right.

Well, why don't we leave it there?

Seems like a good spot.

Somewhat upbeat.

Mayor Nanley.

Yeah, don't make me sound so depressing.

You know, it's so hard right now.

It's hard.

And I think part of what we need to all do is like take on what's going wrong and what's hard for all of us directly, but also look for

what is going right or what could go right.

You know, I don't know if you saw yesterday they did did the Wall Street Journal story on Dayton, and so it's like the front.

And so I said to people, they'd be like, whoa, I just bleak.

I was like, yeah, it's fair.

And I mean, what's the moral of the story?

Like, pandemics suck.

They suck.

That's, um, I think, I think that will be like a news flash that we can put on this.

Mayor Nan Whaley thinks the pandemic sucks.

Woo, that was noose.

Is it a pleasure to talk to you?

It's always great to talk to you.

Talk to you soon.

That'll do it for this week of the ticket, Politics from the Atlantic.

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