The New Hampshire Primary, with Chris Pappas

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The Iowa Caucuses in chaos.

This is a mess.

If it isn't a mess, it'll do to the mess gets here.

About the chaos and confusion that has rocked the first major political contest of the year.

So, the country is still talking about the Iowa Caucasus, but not in the way Iowans would have wanted.

It's still unclear who exactly won the Iowa Caucuses.

We still don't really know what happened in Iowa last night.

I'm Isaac Dover, and this is the ticket.

I'm back in Washington for a few days now, but Monday night, I was in West Des Moines.

I was at a caucus site in a holiday inn.

And as the night wore on, we started to hear there were some reporting errors, and it just seemed isolated.

The caucus process is always messy.

And then, very quickly, over the course of about 20 minutes, it went from, huh, there might be something wrong to, oh wow, there is a widespread problem.

So what exactly was the problem?

There is growing outrage and frustration over the Iowa caucus app.

This app just failed.

I didn't get any sleep on Monday night and I haven't gotten much sleep since.

Of the results we know, it's clear that Pete Buttigiege had a better night than expected.

Bernie Sanders appears essentially tied with him for delegates, though he seems to have gotten more votes.

The headlines after Iowa though aren't about the candidates.

They're still about Iowa.

The delay raising new questions about the future of the Iowa caucuses.

If there was ever a time the Iowa caucuses could go away, this could be the final straw that broke the campaign.

This may very well have been the last time Iowa cast the first votes for president.

The thing that stuck with me though is the frustration coming out of this.

As these candidates were coming in, it was a very, very long night for them, many of them expressing frustration.

But what was clear was every single one I talked to said, now it's time to focus on New Hampshire.

So on to New Hampshire.

Last week, I spoke with an Iowa congressional congressional candidate who previewed some of the questions that are now being asked to the caucus process.

This week, we're talking to a freshman congressman from New Hampshire.

Chris Pappas is young, not yet 40, serving his first term, but he knows New Hampshire politics as well as anyone.

He first got elected at the age of 22 as a state representative.

And his family has, for generations, run a political institution in the Granite State.

It's not a newspaper or a party operation.

They run a restaurant.

But as a big Manchester meeting place, it's hosted presidential candidates for decades.

And Pappas grew up in the restaurant, watching big moments happen in small places.

I remember meeting candidates every four years back to when I was about seven.

So we wanted to talk with Congressman Pappas about New Hampshire, about the early voting system as a whole, but also about what voters in his state care about now that it's likely going to have the first clear results of the 2020 election.

Among the many effects of Iowa's muddled results was the muddling of the surprise success of Pete Buttigiege.

While we were all talking about an an app, it was also the first time an openly gay candidate won delegates in a presidential election.

Pampas himself is the first openly gay person to represent New Hampshire in Congress.

He also happens to have gone to college with Pete Buttigiege, though they didn't know each other back then.

That said, he hasn't endorsed anyone.

We talked about all this in his offices on Capitol Hill.

Take a listen.

Congressman Chris Pappas, thanks for being here on the ticket.

It's great to be here.

So we have had a weird couple of days in politics, and the expression, the cliché that New Hampshire likes to get to is Iowa picks corn and New Hampshire picks presidents.

I'm not sure what Iowa did exactly this time around, but what does that mean for what New Hampshire is going to do?

I'm not sure what happened there either.

And we'll see if we have all the final results before the votes are counted in New Hampshire.

But look, we're very proud of our First of the Nation primary.

This is an election that encourages participation.

Our Secretary of State announced today that he expects between 50 and 60 percent turnout, and that's in a year where there isn't much action on the Republican side.

So I think voters are really engaged in a way that we haven't seen in some past races, and I think New Hampshire is going to deliver again.

This is really not just about the time we spend with candidates, but it's a real deliberative process.

People take this seriously.

And we've seen over the recent past where this has had an impact on the national dialogue.

You know, in 2016, people came to New Hampshire, heard about the opioid epidemic that was ravaging our communities, heard about some really heartbreaking personal stories.

As a result, the national candidates all were talking about their plans to address addiction.

So I think the intimacy of New Hampshire provides us with the opportunity to affect the conversation in a meaningful way.

And that's why we're so proud of our primary.

Is it the intimacy?

Because with what happened in Iowa, there were already a lot of questions being asked about why Iowa gets to go first and why New Hampshire gets to go first and why we have this system of these early states that are always the same four.

What happened in Iowa has, to say the least, accentuated those conversations.

So other than the fact that

because New Hampshire has been doing it, And so people are trained into thinking that they should take it seriously, what's the argument for New Hampshire staying first?

Since I assume as a good New Hampshire politician, you are very much in favor of that.

Absolutely.

But look, this is a conversation that the parties have had for a number of years.

There have have been different proposals in the past to modify the calendar, different states that have come forward and said we should be at the front of the pack.

And I imagine that will continue to happen in the future.

I think what happened in Iowa is a function of a complicated caucus system.

It's not something you're going to see in a primary state where the vote tally is.

Sure.

You know, the votes are going to roll in about a half hour after the polls close.

There's a paper trail.

We're going to have a decisive result, unless, of course, it's a too close-to-call race with a recount, which can happen in an election.

But there will at least be results.

There will be results, and we will be able to see them.

And the next day, there will be headlines in the paper, and someone's going to get a bounce, and some candidates are going to get knocked out.

But why New Hampshire?

We could do that whole thing in Michigan.

We could do it in Arizona.

We could do it in New York.

We could do it wherever.

Well, we

like to guard our primary because we feel that in smaller venues, without the media spotlight always being on, without

boatloads of money pouring in, you can have a more authentic conversation.

It's more of a pure form of our democracy.

And if you do it first in big states,

there's less of a shot, I think, for a lesser-known candidate without the resources to catch fire.

We've seen that happen in the past in places like Iowa and New Hampshire.

I think these are two states where everyone gets a fair shake, where people listen.

And that's not to say other states wouldn't do that as well.

But I think we've got a proven track record.

And so we're proud of the process.

And I think the results show that,

you know, whether it is, you know, launching Barack Obama onto the presidency or

I was talking about the early states together

or launching Jimmy Carter from obscurity into the White House.

You know, it's a system that

likes to look at the underdog.

The early state system overhaul.

That's right.

And I think taken together, you know, the four early states do represent the diversity of America and represent an ability for that conversation to happen in a meaningful way.

You are younger.

You are going to be 40 this year.

But let's talk about how young you were when you started, which is your first office was, you were 22 years old when you ran for the state house in New Hampshire.

That's right.

What kind of 22-year-old runs for the state representative?

So a 22-year-old that grew up in Manchester, New Hampshire, and has an opportunity given the citizen-led government that we have.

There is a low bar for entry in New Hampshire politics.

And you just have to be 18 and a registered voter to run for the history.

How many members of the state house are there?

There are 400 reps and 24 senators.

So interestingly, we have the largest House in the country, but the smallest Senate.

All of them make $100 a year.

So they are essentially

full-time or part-time volunteers anyway.

The legislature meets about half the year.

So you've got to have the time and the passion and the drive to do it.

And so you do get some younger people, but the legislature.

But at 22, you decided I want to make my $100 a year and get into the state house.

What was that decision?

The decision was

having helped other people run.

It was an opportunity, I think, to

see

your path forward to give back to a community that's given you a lot of opportunities.

But also,

the legislature, the average age is typically in the 60s, somewhere around 65.

So I think it's important that everyone has a seat at the table, especially in a representative body like that where everyone represents about 3,000 people.

Was it hard getting through to the older members of the legislature?

Sure.

You know, just as it is, you know, here in D.C.

with CCC.

And

you are now older, but still younger than the average age of your chamber at this point by quite a bit.

Yeah, I think there are, you know, those who have been around politics a while, whether in Washington or any state legislature across the country, you know, that see newer freshman members and think, well, they've got to earn their keep.

You know, they've got to sit there and be quiet for a while and see how things are done.

And I think one of the things that defines the class of new members to this particular Congress is we're not willing to sit in the back benches.

We want to be a part of the conversation now.

And I think our leadership has really allowed us to have that platform.

You come from a family that

has been in New Hampshire for some generations and owns a restaurant in Manchester that is quite famous

The Puritan Backroom, which is a place that a lot of politicians come through.

Is that what got the political bug in you?

I remember meeting candidates every four years back to when I was about seven.

So who's the first one?

I remember meeting Bob Dole and Michael Dukakis in the run-up to the 88 campaign.

And I actually, I pretty much knew I was a Democrat at that point in time.

Because you're your family.

No, my family were, they were all Republicans, actually.

But I could.

Because you were a contrarian agent.

I don't know.

I got the sense early on that the Democratic Party was more about regular people and the Republican Party was more about, I don't know,

the more powerful interests out there.

Somehow I got that dichotomy in my head.

And I think it still rings true today.

But I remember I liked Dukakis on the Democratic side, and I really liked Bob Dole on the Republican side.

I just saw him as a decent, honest man.

And I remember in that campaign, George Bush attacked Dole relentlessly about taxes because Dole was honest and he said, you know, there may be a time where we may need to raise taxes to, you know, fill in the deficit and take care of our needs.

And Bush was relentless against him.

And I thought, well, that just doesn't seem right.

You know, here's a guy who tries to, you know, just level with voters and is getting attacked over it on TV ads.

So I never forgave George H.W.

Bush for what he did to Bob Dole in New Hampshire.

But I was a Dukakis supporter early on and a Democrat after that.

So

everyone in New Hampshire can remember the first time they saw a candidate.

Most people who are active in politics got there because of a presidential campaign.

So someone will, you know, have originated with the Gary Hart campaign or the Howard Dean campaign or John McCain campaign, and that's sort of who they are.

And so does that come through, continue through for you?

That's, again, just because this restaurant is huge and has been there for a long time, so it's an institution,

and people come through.

Were you meeting other candidates as they were talking about?

All the time.

We have about 250 seats, so it's a place that always has kind of a built-in crowd and kind of a local community gathering spot.

So the candidates were always showing up and

I was getting to meet them all.

Yeah, I remember Bob Kerry when he was running, he tended bar,

you know, for an evening, and people really loved to see that.

Clinton, the night before the New Hampshire primary in 92, where it was his comeback win, he finished the day at a bowling alley and then came into the restaurant basically at like 10 p.m.

or so.

And I think there was an Arkansas basketball game on in the kitchen, and he's going through meeting the staff, and he stood there for about a half an hour or so and watched this basketball game with some of the cooking staff in the kitchen.

And they still talk about it today.

And here's this guy like on the verge of this major moment, regaining a footing and, you know, becoming president, just like hanging out at this local place and finishing up his primary campaign.

That's New Hampshire.

I will say, when I was up in September for the state Democratic convention, which this time around obviously had all the presidential candidates coming through, there was someone who got onto the plane back to D.C.

with a box of the chicken tenders to bring home to make sure.

I'm not sure that they would have made it in great condition all the way through, but he was convinced that if you put them in the oven, it would be okay.

So

it's not just for the politics.

People do go there for food too, I guess.

You came up in that world and then went to Harvard.

And when you were at Harvard, you were

there

with a number of people who ended up being factors in politics.

Did you know Ruben Gallego, your colleague

and fellow Harvard classmate?

He was on the podcast a couple of weeks ago.

Yeah, no, I did know Ruben.

And, you know, we were.

Were you guys for the same year, right?

We were, yeah.

And there were a number of other, I mean, Seth Moulton was there at the same time.

Pete Buttigieg was a couple couple of years behind me.

We lived in the same house, although I don't remember ever meeting him.

He was very ensconced at the Institute of Politics.

Butigej has talked about being in college and thinking about a future

in politics being perhaps out of

out of consideration for him because he knew he was gay.

And at that point, even though this is the late 90s, early 2000s, it seemed

out of consideration for him to be

open about who he was, but also have a career in politics.

That's something that you thought about as well at that point.

Obviously, he has done pretty well for himself, and you have too.

Can you take me back through that and what that

as someone who is interested in politics and going through that thought process?

It was a struggle, and I think everyone

dealt with it in their own way.

And certainly it was a time period where it wasn't always safe or easy to be out.

Maybe it was on a college campus but probably not in a small town in New Hampshire or Indiana for that matter.

So

I think that the world has changed in really spectacular ways and we've gotten there in part because of the hard work people have done and the fact that people have put themselves on the line and come out over time.

So we all benefit from those people that have shared their truths and told their stories over the years.

And I think now in politics, there's a level of authenticity that comes with divulging that, with coming out, with telling people who you are.

If you're honest about that, you're going to be perhaps more honest with voters about a whole host of other things that they care about.

Was there a point when you were younger where you thought, I'm interested in politics, but I'm gay, and I don't know how I'm going to make these things go together, though, and felt that Paul?

I don't know if I ever sat down and thought, well, I want to run for office or have a career in politics.

But,

you know,

it didn't seem plausible, really, in that era that you could be

elected to office and be out.

I left college after having come out and at 22, a few months later, was elected to the the state legislature.

Really didn't talk about it much, but if anyone asked, I was honest with them about it.

I think starting at a level like that, there was a little bit of an

anonymity

about

your personal life.

Certainly, as you advance in politics, there's a little bit more scrutiny paid to it.

But times have changed, and there's been a really broad sweep since the late 90s till today.

And

hopefully no one else has to kind of grapple with those

issues and,

you know, think that they can't pursue the career or, you know, an interest that they're passionate about because of who they are.

Let's take a short break.

We'll be back with more with Congressman Chris Pappas in a moment.

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You were talking about the opioid crisis and what 2016 did in terms of bringing national candidates to New Hampshire and making them see what was happening in New Hampshire and then having that help elevate that into the national conversation.

This year for the State of the Union, you and all of your fellow members of the House and Senate delegations in New Hampshire brought people who in one way or the other were connected to what's going on.

Law enforcement or people who have been recovering, suffering from what has been happening.

But I wonder, even with the increased amount of time that we spend talking about opioids now, are we still missing just how deep this crisis is?

We are missing the profound and lifelong impacts that addiction have on individuals.

You know, when someone is in recovery, from opioid abuse, they're there for a lifetime.

And so, you know, that's why as policymakers, our job is so important to make sure that we can sustain the funding and the efforts that we've tried to put in place.

We also need to understand that it's not just about opioids.

I mean, this crisis has gone from over-prescribing and pain pills to heroin to fentanyl.

Now we're seeing a crystal meth epidemic in my state and in other places.

So I think the picture of addiction changes over time, and we have to understand that it presents itself in many forms.

Is it about over-prescribing?

Is it about the despair that gets people there in the first place?

What's happening here?

Aaron Powell, look, these drugs are potent.

The chemical nature of them are such that when they're in your system, it is a long period of time or a lifetime to get them out.

And we just didn't have the infrastructure in place to allow people to seek treatment and to get on the right path.

So I think as a society, we need to make sure we're always looking at this as an illness that can can be treated and not as a moral failing.

And it seems like also the economic factor here is a big part of it.

I think there are a lot of diseases of despair that have been impacting our communities, certainly.

And so,

you know, we need to start early to make sure opportunities are there for young people, to make sure we're investing in early childhood education.

Statistics show that if we're taking care of our kids, they're much less likely to abuse drugs and are much more likely to have long, healthy lives.

My guess to the State of the Union was someone that is doing work on adverse childhood experiences and pulling together community members to respond and wrap kids who have experienced trauma with services to mitigate that trauma because that'll have a positive impact on their lives.

Because the trauma now has a factor.

It'll manifest itself later.

So, you know, we've got to look at this holistically as a societal concern and make sure we.

I don't think it's so bad in New Hampshire.

As opposed to other places where there is an opiate problem, but New Hampshire is one of the places where it's higher.

You know, the drugs have been on our doorstep for a number of years,

but we really lacked the infrastructure of treatment and recovery services that

maybe some other areas had.

You know, we had a mental health system in the 70s that was the model of the nation, and it was chronically underfunded by the state over a period of decades.

And I think that helped exacerbate this issue when the cheap drugs started hitting the streets.

We're also the last state to adopt a prescription drug monitoring program.

And I think the over-prescribing is something that really brought this crisis

to epic proportions.

You

have lived in New Hampshire your whole life, except for college, I guess.

You know a lot of people there.

Do you know people who have been hit by this crisis?

Everyone does.

Coworkers, high school classmates.

Everyone has someone in their family that has grappled with addiction.

Most events I have, if this issue comes up, I'll ask for a show of hands of who's lost, someone close to them.

And it's without question, two-thirds, three-quarters of the hands in the room will go up.

Who's it for you?

I had a cousin that was struggling for a long period of time and

unfortunately was

lost.

And,

we all think about people close to us

and wonder how we could have done things differently.

I remember comforting someone I worked with at the restaurant who lost her son, and she was so distraught and was wondering what else she could have done.

And we've left so many people feeling helpless in this crisis.

She did everything she knew how to do and tried to get him into programs, but the drugs were just too strong.

This needs to be an effort at all levels that

really gives people the tools to lead healthy, successful lives.

Aaron Powell, in 2016, that was the issue that you feel like it was important that the presidential candidates got to see up close.

It continues to be a big issue, and they continue to confront it.

And now it has been part of the presidential campaigning throughout that I've seen.

Are there other things that you feel like this time around have been pushed into their heads in a way that will have that same kind of reverberation into the national conversation by being in New Hampshire?

Well, there are a number of, I think, issues of local importance that have come up.

One I'll mention is,

you know, the safety of our drinking water and PFAS contamination.

We have a couple of sites in New Hampshire, an old Air Force base and an industrial site where residents

in those places were drinking contaminated water for a number of years.

We have people that served on a military base that aren't really sure sure of their exposure level or what it means that they have elevated levels in their blood.

So, you know, presidential candidates have been engaging on that particular issue.

This is a national issue that I think we're just beginning to see the contours of and understanding that there needs to be a stronger response from EPA.

So, you've heard a number of the candidates weigh in on this, and hopefully, that's one issue that we can take to the national stage.

We're sitting in your office in Capitol Hill a couple doors down is your colleague in the New Hampshire delegation, Annie Cooster.

She has endorsed a candidate in this race.

She endorsed Pete Buttigiege a couple weeks ago.

You have very

specifically not endorsed someone.

Why not?

I haven't figured out who I'm going to vote for yet.

To be brutally honest with you,

I actually have to vote absentee on Monday because I'll be back in D.C.

on Tuesday, the day of the primary.

So you are an undecided New Hampshire.

Yeah.

Okay.

So for the presidential candidates out there, what do they need to do to win your vote

well I think

this is a year where so many New Hampshire primary voters are taking a step back they're excited to be a part of the process to hear from candidates but they know this is a big decision to make and they don't want to get it wrong

I think winning

for folks that are voting in the Democratic primary is really paramount.

And I think they're just beginning to understand which candidates have an ability to deliver a victory.

So

it's really a question, I think, of

voters continuing to grapple with that.

Who best motivates them to get to the polls, but also

who can get the job done in November.

So you want to know who can win, and that's how you're going to decide who to vote for.

Well, I think

that's one consideration.

And who do I want to

run with next fall?

I have spent a year and a half on the road covering this race.

In

the last couple of days before the caucuses, I was talking to people who were undecided.

And it was striking to me that that could be true.

It was striking to some of the people who are working on the campaigns that that could be true.

What do you think it is that's going to happen in between

now

and

what are we, about 100 hours probably from when you'll fill out your absentee ballot that will make you know, okay, that's the one.

I guess I got to get out to some events this weekend, right?

So there's a dinner on Saturday night that the New Hampshire Democratic Party is doing.

All the candidates will be there.

I'm attending a debate on Friday night that the DNC is sponsoring.

So

I think I'll get a feeling after those two events

where I'm going to end up.

But it's really important for me that the voters of New Hampshire feel good about their choice and that they're out in front of this process.

And so, you know, I think it's going to be an effort to bring everyone back together.

And so it's important to have members of Congress and other leaders who are able to be a part of that effort.

And that's what I'd like to see happen.

I really want to find a way that we can heal, come together,

you know, understand that our differences are pretty small compared to the agenda from the Republican Party, and know that we've got got to really have a big tent and,

you know, a concerted effort to build a

consensus around a candidate.

Last question.

When you decide, are you going to let anybody know?

I don't know.

Well, we just, so we had a case recently go through court.

You know, ballot selfies were illegal in New Hampshire for a while, according to the Secretary of State, but that was reversed by a court decision.

So I've been toying with the idea, do I do a ballot selfie and just sort of say, like, you know,

this is who I'm supporting?

Feel free to let me know.

We'll see.

My staff may not let me do that.

I don't know.

But

I'm still figuring out who I'm going to vote for.

But it's really important to me that this process goes well and that the voters of New Hampshire feel good about their choice.

And I'm just, you know, thankful I can be in the position to be kind of an ambassador for the New Hampshire primary in the process.

All right, Congressman Chris Pappas, thanks for being here on the ticket.

Thanks for your time.

That'll do it for this week of The Ticket: Politics from the Atlantic.

Thanks to Kevin Townsend for producing and editing this episode, and to Catherine Wells, the executive producer for Atlantic Podcast.

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For articles and transcripts of the episodes, go to theatlantic.com/slash the ticket.

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Catch you next week.

You might have, if you were standing in the lobby of a West Moines Holiday Inn on Monday night, heard me say, Are you fucking kidding me?

Got that on tape.

That'll be at the end of the episode.