Arnold Schwarzenegger on Show-Business Politics

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This is Radio Atlantic.

I'm Isaac Dover.

Well, I just got off a plane from Iowa.

We've had the last debate before the actual voting starts.

The candidates are a little less chummy now.

The weather is a little colder and a Senate impeachment trial is about to begin.

With all that going on, we thought it'd be nice to get a view from someone who knows politics, knows mass media, and has had his own complicated history with Donald Trump, the Republican Party, and fitting into where politics is now.

This week's guest is Arnold Schwarzenegger, former California governor, movie star, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger.

In Washington, we spend all this time thinking about a celebrity Republican who became a successful politician, all while kind of being a bit of a parody himself.

If Trump is one version of that path, Schwarzenegger is a very, very different one.

We talked about the nexus of politics and entertainment, the way forward on climate change, and what he says about the Republicans who are leaving the party, even though he insists, for all the problems he has with the direction of the GOP, he won't.

We talked in his office in Santa Monica a few weeks ago when I was out in Los Angeles for the last Democratic debate.

The place is kind of incredible.

It's giant, posters of his movies, statues of iconic characters.

I walk past Mr.

Freeze and the the Terminator on my way in.

There is a predator.

There's also the seal of the state of California on the door.

And in the hallway, a mock-up of the one-millionth solar roof panel that had just been installed in California off an initiative he started as governor.

Then, this crazy room he has in the back that's done up like we're back in Austria.

I've gotten to know him a bit over the years, which let me tell you is its own strange thing.

But it's why he started off our interview making fun of me for trying to do what I always do and welcome our guests to the program.

That's what I get for trying to be polite.

Take a listen.

So I'll say a little introduction, then I'll say, Governor Arm Schwarzenegger, thanks for being here on Radio Atlantic.

So

we're in a strange room.

Can you tell me about this room?

Well, I don't know.

It's not really a strange room.

It's normal for you.

It's a very normal room.

It's a strange room for Los Angeles.

It's called the Austrian room, and it's basically decorated inside with wood, kind of the wood that we use in Austria inside homes that make it look kind of cozy.

The room is decorated the way a farmhouse would be, a little farmhouse, where everything is kind of taking place in one room.

There will be the table that we are sitting by right now, then next to it you will see a bed.

because in the same room the farmer would go to sleep in the afternoon, take a nap or at night, sleep here.

And then you have a grandfather's clock above with deer antlers and deers on it, which is hand carved.

You have the cradle here that is kind of a cradle that's made in Austria, handmade in Austria.

And I used it for my kids.

I used it when they were babies.

So because I'd take them always to the office, I'd try to always kind of slap them all over the place.

wherever I was, if it's the gym or if it was the office, for them to get basically used to every kind of an environment.

And And they loved it.

So I would have that cradle out there next to my desk and I attached a string to it.

And then I rocked it.

I just held it with one hand like this while I was making phone calls and it was rocking it.

And they fell asleep.

absolutely perfect because they were with me.

And then when they woke up, they saw me and I

kind of held them for a little bit, then put them back again.

So that's what the room is.

What I do is whenever I want to feel like that I'm kind of like in Austria, this is the room to come into because it looks totally different than the rest of my office.

It's been a big couple of weeks

on finishing a priority from your time as governor,

which is getting to a million solar rooftops.

And I want to talk about how that fits into the the larger situation that we're at in combating climate change and the arguments over it.

Let me start with this.

When I say the words Green New Deal, what do you hear?

A slogan,

kind of a marketing tool, something

that is very well intentional, but I think bogus, because that's what they always do.

You know, they call things different names.

and

different people talk about it.

But to me, the only thing that really matters is how do we move forward with our goals and this is means that we stop increasing the amount of greenhouse gases and pollution that we put out there and the idea is to have the whole nation do that and have the whole world do that and you don't have to call them you know names or anything this but I understand also at the same time that you know that in everything it's always good it kind of it's like it makes you feel like there's a new beginning now because we're calling it a different name or so but my point always was is that there's only only one deal, and that is the California deal.

We in California have shown that it can be done and we have shown how to do it.

And therefore, if the nation really wants to be serious in reducing greenhouse gases also by 25% like we did, all they have to do is copy us.

That's what states are supposed to do, to be the laboratory for the federal government, to just have the federal government copy very good ideas

done by various different states.

Aaron Trevor Burrus,

Where did this all start from, the commitment to environmentalism?

It has become such a defining part of how you are as a public figure, but it was not always

part of your thinking.

It's you know, it's really wild that

when you campaign

you have certain goals

and there are certain things that you're really passionate about.

And

then when you get in there,

you somehow, and now you fast forward the seven years that I was governor, then you realize

that

the things that really meant a lot to you, like for instance, to get the financial house in order, because California was at a $38 billion

deficit and it was growing.

And I said to myself, we got to go and stop spending money we don't have.

If I would become governor, you know, I would just stop spending and blah, blah, blah, and all this kind of stuff.

And I came up with certain rules and certain things I wanted to accomplish.

But then when I got in there, I realized that it was much harder than to just, you know, have a plan like that.

I was not about to dwell on that, what we didn't accomplish.

I was trying to kind of like throughout the entire seven years of being governor, trying to figure out the things that we can go and agree on, and the things that we could do together.

And so we started going in the direction of, like, for instance, the environment.

I had a majority of Democrats there that were really interested in it.

The Republicans hated it.

There were only a very few that were interested in the subject.

I was very interested in the subject because I've heard the facts about how we are really

creating air that is

poisoning people, that is killing people, that is causing cancer, that is causing heart problems, that is causing cardiovascular problems, it's causing brain problems, and all of those things.

We saw that

fossil fuels are kind of destroying the air,

the cleanliness of the ground and the water, and all of this.

And so I felt like, well, if my ultimate responsibility is the safety of the people and to protect the people, then I should really kind of kick in in a big way here and make a difference.

And so I always looked at California as the most important place because it's the number one state that everyone looks at in the United States as kind of in a way for leadership, you know, because we have that kind of a power.

So I didn't just look at it as let's solve the problems for California because you really can't solve the problem just for California because it's called global warming and it and pollution doesn't really have any boundaries.

It doesn't stop at the border of California before it gets to

Arizona or to go to Nevada or something like that, or to go to Mexico, wherever it is.

So it just continues on around the world.

And so it's a much bigger issue.

So therefore, I said to myself, I have to solve the problems in California and make that kind of not only good for California, but an inspiration to other states and to other nations.

So my goal was much bigger, right off the top.

It was a global goal that we must have an impact on the world.

And it's no different than when I used to promote fitness and bodybuilding.

You know, I didn't think, I realized that, wait a minute, now with the communication, we can really go out.

and travel around the world and really promote this worldwide and inspire people to exercise and to lift weights and to do this, to get better in their sports, to get healthier and

slow down the aging process and all those things.

So I felt like, well, we can do the same thing with the environment.

It's kind of also has to do with health, but instead of the health of the body, it has to do with the health of the earth, of the globe.

And so I started becoming somewhat obsessed about it.

and started thinking about it all the time.

What can we do?

What else can we do?

So we started, you know, having the low-carbon fuel standard that we passed here in California, AB32, to reduce our greenhouse gases by 25%, to get our renewables up to 50%

instead of having 19%, which we had in the beginning.

And so goal after goal, the green building initiative, and then incentives for buying electric cars, and all of this stuff that comes in.

And we were very successful on every level.

You just hit this one millionth solar rooftop when you set that goal in 2006.

People must have thought that that was ridiculous.

Well, it's one of those things that where people say:

first of all, you know,

this is a huge, ambitious goal, and

it's not going to happen for the next 10 years.

The speed we are going now, it will be 30 years from now, but the idea is to speed up the process very quickly and to make it happen maybe in 10 or 20 or 15 years from now.

And so we all had to kind of, you know, realize that this is not going to happen while we are in office.

Now that cost and created somewhat of a challenge because most politicians, as you know, like to go and declare victory.

And they like to go and use their little victories in a campaign speech and when they go and get re-elected.

And this goal was not going to do that.

None of us will be in office by the time we're going to celebrate the million roofs.

And so we had to really kind of like just look at each other and just say, hey, you know, screw the victory.

We can always do that when we're out of office, but let's just go for it because it's a big goal and everyone out there is saying it's impossible.

But isn't that great?

When everyone says it's impossible, then let's just do it.

Do you get when people feel fatalistic, depressed about doing anything about climate change, you say, maybe it is too late,

maybe

we're just going to have to live with the planet being destroyed?

Well, you know, I never go for that kind of an answer because it's like

it's no different than when you are, you know, let's see, 85 years old and you say, well, it's too late.

You know,

why am I going to the gym and work out?

Why should I do Pilates?

Why should I go and

do some exercise or do some cardio work or something?

It's, you know, it maybe is late,

but it's not too late because still that person that is 85 can, instead of, you know, wiping out with 87, maybe stretch it to 90.

You know, we have a gene that determines when you die, but you can alter that.

You can destroy it and set yourself back by drinking a lot, smoking a lot, and eating shitty foods, and then you wipe out earlier.

But you can also go and exercise and live a clean life and extend it by five years or ten years the other way.

I mean, look at Clean Deastwood.

It's a perfect example of that.

The guy's 90 years old and he's standing around at my Christmas party for hours and schmoozing with people in the sense of, does this guy never get tired?

But that's what he does in a set when he directs.

So, you know, I think the way you live, he lives a healthy life.

So the way you live it does make a difference.

And it's also the same same way with the environment.

I think that if we all go and make an effort now, it's never too late.

I think it would definitely have a huge impact.

And I think it's just the political will.

Do the various different leaders have the political will?

Everyone always admires heroes.

But when it comes to

the time of stepping up to the plate, and becoming a hero yourself,

that sometimes people kind of freak out.

You know, what does that mean?

I have to make now a commitment.

I have to go and fight the oil companies.

I have to fight the coal companies.

I have to fight all of this, you know, kind of lobbyists that are out there that are fighting for fossil fuels and having a lot of power.

Oh my God, this is overwhelming.

And I've seen it with leaders in Europe when I was governor, when I met with them, and I don't want to mention any names,

but I just tell you, I met prime ministers, chancellors,

presidents, and they all just said that, please don't do this.

In 2006, don't go and try to roll back the greenhouse gases or don't do the things with the tailpipe emission standards.

They're too tough for us.

I said, what do you mean too tough for us?

We are giving you to 2014.

It's 2006.

So we are giving you eight years lead time because we don't want to punish any car companies.

We want to say to the car companies, you've done a fantastic job.

You made us move around from one place to the other in a very comfortable way over the years and continue doing that.

But we now have found out that the way we power our engines through fossil fuels is having damaging effects on the environment.

And so let's slowly change.

Not overnight.

We know that people have just bought new machines to build equipment and to build cars.

We don't want them to rip this all down from one day to the next.

No, there's an eight-year lead time.

And so that was the idea, but they were scared of making any move.

So I could see that there was really a lot of dragging and dragging on going on in Europe.

And

we were kind of way ahead in California.

We built in the meantime the Tesla factory here in California and then are building the cars that are the most successful cars.

So we are moving in the right direction and we have shown that it is possible that you can do those things, that you can confront those lobbyists and fight them on every step of the way.

And on top of it, we have also proven that you do not harm the economy or jobs,

because this is what they always say.

Oh, this will be terrible for the jobs.

We will lose jobs.

We will have a terrible economy.

The economy will go south.

And this will be horrible for everybody.

And in the meantime, in California, we are the number one economy in the United States, and we are the fifth largest economy in the world.

You

know a lot about what people respond to.

You had a successful career in entertainment because of that.

You get politics.

Are you surprised by what has become of politics at this point?

The

cliché is that it's all become a show?

Has it all become a show?

I don't think that it has just become a show, but I mean, it's...

I think that politicians today concentrate too much on just winning again the next election.

And so therefore

they don't even give it that two-year of grace period where they say, okay, let's go and get things done for two years and then the next two years we can fight and presidential elections are coming up.

But let's at least get something done for two years.

That's what it was in the old days.

It was the same in Sacramento, where people just said, you know, I can't go there, I can't vote for that because I'm up for re-election and I don't want someone to come in that is more to the right than me or that is, you know, more to the left than me, and all of things.

And that's why we eventually got redistricting done because they were so locked in into their districts, Democratic and Republican districts.

But that's what's going on on a nationwide basis.

And

it's all about how do we win the elections.

But there were always, you know, people forget that

politics is a dirty business and that people do horrible things.

And when I talk about horrible things, it's about just

really being interested in their self-interest.

It's all about self-interest: what is good for me rather than what is good for the country.

Because if anyone would at all think about what's good for the country, they know what they're doing right now is not good for the country.

Let's take a quick break, and we'll be back with more from the Austrian room with Arnold Schwarzenegger.

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So much of our politics ends up being consumed by celebrity, and I think that that's true not just obviously with Donald Trump, but in the Democratic presidential race, the people who are doing the best for the most part are people who were well-known before the race started.

The process plays out on TV for the most part.

We have short attention spans.

It does seem like maybe we're

in a place that we're the entertainment part of politics is consumed politics.

It is, but I mean, I think that

we just have a wacky system.

We have created kind of in a way a show business system where you have a presidential campaign that lasts two years.

It's my employment.

So it's like exactly.

But it is, I think, it gets boring when you see the same people up there and arguing with each other and not only arguing with each other, but real fake.

and terrible acting.

I have to say, I mean, they should take acting lessons, all of these people up there on the stage, because their acting is just so horrible when they attack each other and they try to be like acting out

seriously like, oh, it was appalling that you used to endorse this and how could you have done that?

Oh my god, it was like horrendous.

And they do this whole drama as it really affects their life and then they walk off the stage again and smile and laugh and

have a good time and probably drink some schnapps together.

But I mean it's like it's like it's show business, you know, and then it's all about, you know, who got the ratings up and who got the ratings down.

And then the one that is sliding down a little bit, he always said and is kind of like on the way out.

And it's like for two years,

we now just have gotten close enough that we can say, okay, in a year from now, it's an election.

So this next year is going to be crucial.

But we have already now had people dropping out,

and we have already had this kind of warm-up period where we kind of like said, what was that all about?

Let's talk gerrymandering for a moment.

It's a cause that's important to you.

I wonder what you would say to

people, whether they're Republicans or Democrats, who look at what happened in California and say, listen, you wanted to reform the system and it ended up being bad for Republicans.

And so it's important for us to have power to do these other things that we want to do that are priorities for Republicans that you might agree with or Democrats they might agree with.

And they say, we can't go and change to what

would be fairer districts.

How does that choice work?

If they say,

you want to make the fairer districts, we want to keep the power so we can do the things that we think are important.

Well, it's clear, again, when you say we want to keep the power, that is self-interest.

It's a selfish way of thinking because

we know that the system is rigged.

and we know that it really hurts the country when Democrats and Republicans are so far apart with their ideology and they're so stuck in the ideological corners that they can't come together.

So then nothing gets done.

So how do we stay competitive as a nation?

The other countries move ahead.

China moves ahead.

European Union moves ahead.

I mean there's a lot of these countries that are really India is moving ahead and I think that we have to really be competitive.

And the only way we can be competitive if i is is if we collectively come together and say here are the things that we need to do in order to fix the problem.

But you would say you should give up, you should not be resistant to giving up power, right?

Which is what, I mean,

what you did to change the laws in California was bad for California Republicans.

Well, not really.

It was

actually good for the Republicans, but it means that you have to be competitive.

And if you cannot be competitive, if you don't have better ideas than the Democrats, then you're going to lose.

If you're not in touch with your voters, you're going to lose.

If you're not in touch with what Californians need, especially especially what women are looking for, and it was like the Republicans in California lost a huge amount of women.

Why?

Because those issues like education issues or environmental issues or healthcare issues were not addressed by Republicans.

They just were talking about money and, you know, factories, and how do we protect the companies, how do we protect business and all that.

That is all great.

We should protect businesses and we should protect the economy and all this, but we have to, at the same time, have a sound healthcare system where people can go and get their treatments.

And California is the number one state, and we should have the number one health care system.

And that's what we should shoot for.

But they had absolutely no interest in talking about that.

And the same was with the environment.

The women were very interested in a clean environment.

They were worried about their kids and about the water they drink and all that stuff.

And we couldn't even guarantee anymore that the water in every one of the towns is safe and that the ground is safe.

And so the women were interested in those issues and the Republicans were not at all.

They kept denying that there is pollution, they kept denying that there is global warming, they kept denying there's climate change and all this stuff when the sea waters are rising and there's dangers ahead.

And women just said, look, I'm out of here.

So they kind of

really did this to themselves, not the redistricting.

The redistricting just created the fear atmosphere that you had to be more competitive.

So it gave everyone a chance to win.

So that's why I disagree with you that

when you say it makes you lose and you cannot protect your job, you can protect your job as much as an Olympic champion can protect his medal and come back again and do it again.

But he has to be the best.

This is the only way you can protect it.

You cannot get shooted in because you had already a medal that you get shoot in because the way the system works.

And so what I wanted to create is I wanted to kind of take my Republican hat off when I do that, which you have to do, because I didn't really want to look at who is an advantage or disadvantage.

I just wanted to make it fair and even for everybody.

And everyone has the same shot and everyone can go and campaign and show that they're performing, they have a vision, and they have great goals for the state.

And then they get elected.

Look at me.

I was in a state that was definitely 60% Democrats and 40% Republicans.

And I got elected as a Republican because I, when I was in the campaign trail, talked about issues that were not just Republican issues, but there were also environmental issues and healthcare issues and immigration issues.

Let me ask you with your Republican hat on, though.

There are a bunch of California Republicans who have left the Republican Party.

The Republican Party has changed a lot in the last few years.

Chad Mays, who's the former Republican Assembly leader, in December announced that he was leaving the Republican Party.

He's a person you've worked with.

You are not leaving the Republican Party.

What makes you stay?

Well, I think I'm a true Republican.

If you look at Ronald Reagan, or if you look at President Nixon or President Lincoln, I mean, these were people that were fighting for equality.

I mean, Lincoln, think about that.

I mean, it was really so far ahead when it comes to giving equal rights to blacks and getting rid of slavery and giving them the voting rights,

you know, being inclusive.

So I'm inclusive.

So I see myself as that.

I see myself as a Ronald Reagan Republican,

someone that is very, very good with protecting the economy, but also good in protecting the environment.

I mean, Ronald Reagan created the first air resources board here in California that enables us to really have total control over the environmental issue and be able to set goals like 50% reindeer or reducing the greenhouse gases by 25% doors.

That all can be done through the air resources board, which Ronald Reagan created when he was governor.

And the same thing is also the case with Nixon.

Nixon was

striving for, he was first created the EPA in Washington to protect the environment, but at the same time he wanted to have universal health care.

So

isn't that kind of Republican gone?

Isn't that Republican Party dead?

No, the party changes, but you don't have to change your principles.

The party changes indeed can g go one way or the other.

And what my responsibility is, is to keep reminding everyone this is what the true Republican Party is all about.

And we should not just change because a new president came in that he maybe is a little bit

different in his approach and all this.

I think that we should really, as Republicans, fight for total equality.

Have the people who've left the party made the wrong decisions?

No.

Look,

it's like in training, you know, in bodybuilding.

I mean, there were guys that were doing 20 reps of 20 sets to get the most muscular chest.

And I was doing five different exercises of five sets each, of 12 repetitions.

So who was right and who was wrong?

Well, you want competitions.

I want to compete.

But these other guys also had fantastic pectoral muscles and fantastic chests.

And so there's there's different training principles to get in shape.

You may say, you know, I like bicycling to keep in shape.

Someone else says, I love running, you know, kind of

every day, my seven miles.

Someone else says, you know, I like to go to the gym and go from one exercise machine to the next.

So everyone, so there's a dispute about it, but who is right and who is wrong on the end.

So to me, there is really no right and no wrong.

I think what it is, is if someone feels like the Republican Party has left them, that they're not really leaving the Republican Party, but the Republican Party has left them, and therefore I feel perfectly fine stepping out of the Republican Party and become an independent, that's the prerogative.

I think that if it makes them feel good, I support that 100%,

and I would endorse a candidate like that anytime.

Because to me, it comes always down to one thing, where's the heart of that candidate?

Is it to really help people or is it to kind of like just support the party and be a party hack?

Do you worry that you're going to be the last one left?

No, there's many.

I mean,

it is so many of us.

I mean, think about, you know, the guy that I always love talking to that kind of thinks like me is John Kasich.

And he and I, we both say, there's so many of us out there.

You know, it's very clear that people are not, you know, people try to be supportive of Trump.

And that's good.

Republicans should be supportive of Trump,

especially when he does something that's well, I'm very supportive of some of the issues that it deals with, and I'm not supportive when it comes to the environment.

You

have a lot of thoughts about all this.

Do you think about what you want your role to be over the course of this next year and as the country figures out what its future is politically?

You know, I want to be as supportive as possible to get things done.

And to me, America

is the most important thing, not a political position.

And that's why I have no interest in running myself for anything for Senate or for Congress or anything like that.

I can't really imagine you as a freshman member of the House.

Yeah.

I will be overnight the senior member

just because of my age.

But I just, I think that I can do a lot of good from the outside.

I became very passionate about issues.

Interesting thing here is

that when I ran, my wife said to me, you know, that you will be very good in politics and you will be very good in running for office.

You're competitive.

You know exactly how to sell yourself, how to communicate and all of those kind of things.

You're very disciplined and moving around and to get to the rallies and to fire them up and you always have the energy.

that but i guarantee you when it comes to sitting in your office and doing policy you will get bored because i know you too well and it totally the opposite happened i actually started really enjoying when i got into the office and you never know those things about yourself you know we don't know there's so many things we don't know about ourselves when you get into a situation all of a sudden you find out a new you and so i've just happened to really be interested whenever they said discussed an issue for an hour, and then they said, okay, let's work out the rest, let the governor go and go about this business.

I always said, well, no, no,

can we not stay a little longer?

I want to hear the rest of it.

You know, so I started getting really into it because I was always kind of fascinated by how to solve problems.

So I think outside of politics, I can do a lot of things.

I'm very passionate about it.

I love having the Schwarzenegger Institute where we address a lot of those issues.

I like to go overseas and talk about the environment.

And we have our environmental conference in Vienna every year, the Austrian World Summit and all those things.

So I love what I'm doing because it's kind of like makes my life interesting and I feel like that I can, you know, accomplish my goal, which is to always think about how do we keep America the greatest country in the world because I feel so appreciative how America has received me with open arms when I came over here in 1968.

And I always said, you know, somehow I have to give something back to America because I will never forget this kind of opportunities that I've gotten.

So it's all part of that.

It's kind of giving back and doing something for America.

Let me ask you one last one here.

You have a movie coming out in which you play the president.

That wasn't a tease for you?

It's fun to play something, at least.

That you can't be.

This is why it's fun to play a CIA agent like I do in the movies or to play a cop in the movies.

You know, the amount of cops that I played, my father always wanted me to be a cop and to become a cop.

I didn't.

I wanted to get a movie business.

So I played a cop in the movie business.

So since I can't really,

since we would not have comprehensive immigration reform where a foreign-born citizen can run for president,

it's fun to play a president.

Was it fun sitting behind that desk?

Oh, it was great.

The fun thing was it was actually the Oval Office of the 50s and 60s.

So it was was more that era rather than

the more modern era.

And you didn't feel like, oh, maybe I should try to make this real?

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I think about it.

Wouldn't it be fun to sit here and to have the power and to kind of really work with the world together and to solve those problems and to take on those challenges.

Yeah,

of course I think about that.

But at the same time, I also think about, oh, wait a minute, you can't really complain about it too much because everything that I was accomplishing in my life or accomplished in my life was because of America.

All right.

Governor Arl Schwarzenegger, thanks for being here on Radio Atlantic.

Absolutely.

That'll do it for this week of Radio Atlantic.

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