The Manifest Destiny of Mike Pence

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Vice President Mike Pence is seen as a humble man of faith, and yet he's among the most stalwart defenders of President Donald Trump, who's not perhaps our most obvious exemplar of Christian godliness.

How does Pence balance his devotion to God with his devotion to the president?

And how far do his own ambitions stretch?

This is Radio Atlantic.

Hi, I'm Matt Thompson, executive editor of The Atlantic.

I'm here with my co-host, my esteemed co-host, as always, Alex Wagner.

Hello, Alex.

Am I esteemed always?

You are always esteemed.

You welcome

you to be for all time.

You're too kind.

It's good to be here, my friend.

Good to have you.

We are missing our other esteemed co-host, Jeff Lurie Goldberg, who is off gallivanting somewhere.

Doing estimable things.

Estimable things, indeed.

It has been a newsy several weeks.

Got a giant tax bill.

We've got new turns in Robert Mueller's investigation.

More powerful men who are being confronted with allegations of predatory behavior.

There is a lot going on, Alex.

Yeah, I would say so.

It's become incredibly tedious to say it was a newsy week, but really, Matt, you are right.

Seriously, it is.

It has been a newsy week.

Where to begin?

Well, we wanted to talk this week about none of that, but about a figure who's lurked in the background through all of that.

Vice President Mike Pence.

In the most recent issue of The Atlantic, our staff writer McKay Coppins has given us a profile of the vice president that offers a really interesting window, not just on him, but on President Trump, on conservative evangelical Christianity at this moment, and on what our political future might be.

Welcome to the table, McKay.

Thanks for having me.

I'm so honored to be here.

I've been trying to get on this podcast for months and you guys finally booked it.

Your deli number finally came up on a big L C D screen.

Number 96, McKay Coppins.

Welcome, dude.

McKay.

So I know he's a heartbeat away from the presidency.

Why is it interesting to talk about Mike Pence right now?

Well, he is a heartbeat away from the presidency.

That's true.

He's also, maybe more importantly, an impeachment vote away from the presidency.

This is obviously a White House that more than any other White House, at least since Richard Nixon probably, is under siege, right?

You have investigators circling, key members of the president's inner circle, past and present, are being interviewed by Robert Moeller's team.

There's a sense growing among Republicans that I talk to in Washington that this is a presidency in peril.

And then you have Mike Pence kind of at the center of all of it.

He is

always kind of performed this,

you know, loyalty and submission to the president.

He acts like he's fiercely loyal to Donald Trump.

But that might not actually be the case from my reporting.

What also strikes me, guys, is this isn't just a presidency in peril, but to the point of McKay's great story, it's a candidacy that was in peril.

I mean, Mike Pence has basically, his relationship with Donald Trump has always been at the edge of peril.

I mean, ever since this weird, awkward partnership began, the prospect of Donald Trump combusting, either as candidate or president, has always been in the foreground.

This isn't a vice president for whom the prospect of becoming president is that outlandish.

In fact, it's probably always been in the back of Mike Pence's brain, right?

Yeah, I think that that's a fair point.

Yeah.

Maybe you're the big news out of the story this week.

So, what is the thing that we should know about Mike Pence that is lesser known that you're reporting as revealed?

Yeah, I think the thing that

we need to know about him more than anything else is that he's a lot more ambitious and a lot more calculating than he lets on.

When you see him on the campaign trail or see him kind of giving speeches or with the president, he's constantly fawning over the president, talking about how great he is and, you know, they're such good friends and all of this.

Greatest privilege of my life, and it's to serve A.

Well, it's the greatest honor of my life to stand shoulder to shoulder with Donald Trump.

And he has a political reason to do that, but

such broad shoulders.

He loves talking about Donald Trump's broad shoulders.

It's actually one of my favorite campaign trail ticks that he picked up.

What you saw just two days ago is what I see every single day.

A leader with broad shoulders and a big heart.

He will provide that kind of broad-shouldered American strength.

Broad-shouldered American leadership.

The broad-shouldered leadership.

They're going to hear broad-shouldered leadership.

Is broad-shouldered just Mike Pence's euphemism for bullying persona?

I mean, it's just like, he just uses it in a way like, oh, it's not, it's not behavior unfit for the presidency.

It's just broad-shouldered strength.

Well, yeah, he always seems to use it, especially,

you know, he'll say he has broad shoulders, but a big heart.

So he's almost, it's always like when he's apologizing for something incendiary or outrageous that Trump is not.

Those are just his broad shoulders.

No, that's just his broad shoulders.

The breadth of his shoulders.

It's the yin and young of the president.

It's broad shoulders on the one hand.

I'm going to use that one.

Don't mind him.

He's just broad shouldered.

But the truth is,

Mike Pence is somebody who is deeply religious, deeply ambitious, and those things kind of go hand in hand in his life.

He has this sense of kind of manifest destiny about him.

He believes that he's on something of a divine mission and that God has really placed him where he is.

And that belief and that worldview, which

really comes through when you spend a lot of time talking to the people who know him, it really matters when we reach these kind of moments of political crisis in the White House.

Aaron Powell, what episodes from Mike Pence's history gave you that sense of his manifest destiny?

Well, so first I think you have to go back to his college experience.

He had been raised Catholic in a small town in Indiana,

and he went to this small college called Hanover College, a liberal arts school in Indiana.

And the spring of his freshman year, he road tripped to Kentucky with some Christian friends for a music festival that was billed as kind of the Christian Woodstock.

And he told this story at a church a few months ago.

It was a few weeks later, I went to what was a great contemporary Christian music festival in Wilmore, Kentucky, called Ichthus in 1978.

And I heard lots of great singing, just like I heard this morning, and I heard lots of wonderful preaching.

And Saturday nights, sitting in a light rain,

I walked down, and

not out of anything other than my heart really finally broke with the deep realization that what had happened on the cross in some infinitesimal way

had happened for me.

And I gave my life and made a personal decision to trust Jesus Christ as my Savior.

So he threw the Catholics under the bus.

He has tried to walk that back a little bit recently, I've noticed.

He still speaks fondly of his Catholic childhood.

His whole family is still Catholic, by the way.

McKay, is there tension with his family, though, given the fact that, as you said, he was raised in a family of Irish Catholic Democrats and has really gone far afield.

Yeah, actually, it's interesting.

There was a story during the campaign, I think in the New York Times, about this very question.

And he's the only one in his family who's converted.

And I think it was Pence's brother actually said that it was a really painful experience, especially for his mother, who's still a very devout Catholic.

But, you know, look,

Pence's journey here is actually not that uncommon.

A lot of people during this time were discovering or rediscovering their kind of Christian faith in an evangelical context.

This was in the midst of the Jesus movement.

There was a

kind of weird kind of Christian counterculture movement at the time.

And also it was right around the time that Jerry Falwell was launching the moral majority.

So this really wasn't a time of kind of evangelical ascendancy.

And he was one of many people who was converting.

So he became an evangelical Christian.

What's interesting is the next year, Pence becomes the president of his fraternity.

And he kind of meticulously befriended all of the various fratt brothers to be able to

be propelled to this post.

So he didn't just become president of the fraternity.

He campaigned.

He made himself president.

He installed himself as president of the fraternity.

And it's funny because I talked to one of his frat brothers from that time, a guy named Dan Murphy, who's actually now a history professor at that college.

And he told me that even back then, all the Frapp brothers knew he wanted to be president.

So this is, you know, he's a teenager still, basically, and he has his eye on the Oval Office.

There's one story, though, one episode from that time that I think is worth telling.

Yeah, tell me about Frat Bro, Frat Bro Pence.

Yeah, it's Frat Bro Pence.

Well, so it's funny because he's actually, if you look at like the pictures from the yearbooks at that time, he's kind of like a, it's weird weird to imagine now, but he's kind of a stud, honestly.

Like, he's, he's walking around, he has a guitar.

He's the kind of guy, if you went to college, he's the kind of guy who would be like leading a gaggle of young women and like a sing-along with his guitar on the quad.

McKay, Mike Pence is a handsome dude.

Yeah, I agree.

I agree.

I'm not questioning his handsomeness.

It's just that he doesn't.

Will you sound surprised about that?

He has a kind of swagger.

If you read about him and watch the photos of him or look at the photos in the yearbook, he's like a swaggering

bro.

I mean,

it's not just the handsomeness.

You don't see swaggering.

I'm not sure if swagger is a word

I would use to describe vice president Mike Fence.

So he's the president of the fraternity.

The movie Animal House had just come out.

This fraternity was constantly getting into trouble by reenacting scenes from their favorite scenes from the movie.

And in particular, they got in trouble because the school was trying to shut down alcohol consumption.

And the Phi Gams, as his frat brothers were called, were smuggling kegs into their frat house.

And they kind of had this elaborate system to smuggle the booze in.

They had like campus lookouts and various other things.

Anyway, so one night they're at a rowdy party and they get word that an associate dean is on his way over to the house to bust them.

And so typically I'm told that when something like this would happen, when an administrator would come and confront them and catch them with alcohol, one of the frat brothers would answer the door and claim all the booze was his.

And then that would kind of spare the rest of the fraternity from punishment, right?

And Pence is president, so it's like the punishment.

So it kind of falls to him, right?

Yeah, exactly.

So he goes and answers the door.

And instead of doing that, he leads the dean straight to the kegs and admits that they've been violating the rules.

They get punished very severely.

Dan Murphy told me they really got thrown under the bus.

And a lot of his frat brothers were really mad at Pence for doing this.

So Pence led the Deans to the keg.

And how did he, I mean, did he get punished?

How did he come off after this?

Well,

what we know is that he's apparently maintained pretty good relationship with the deans because after he graduated, he was offered a job in the admissions office at the school.

Well, so doesn't that just mean that Mike Pence is a frat snitch?

I mean, is that not just the official designation?

Is that a real portmanteau?

Frat snitch?

Okay, first of all, I love you for many reasons, Matt Thompson, but chief among them is that you respond to frat snitch with portmanteau.

I don't know that it's a portmanteau.

I just made it up on the spot, but clearly I'm stealing it.

Mike Pence

lost the bros and gained the

confidence and, I guess, admiration of the administrator.

I think that that is, yes, fair to say.

I saw a lot of people on Twitter after reading this anecdote in the story call him a narc.

That's why I prefer the gentler frat snitch frat.

What frat snitchery is?

This is such a great word, Alex.

Mike Pence, vice president and frat snitch.

Yes.

You're welcome, Mike.

Put it on a business card.

So he kind of figured out a way even back then and has continued to figure out a way to keep the higher ups just happy enough for him to keep climbing the ladder.

So, we saw evidence early on of Pence's perhaps outsized ambition.

When did he start revealing some other of the traits that would elevate him to the role, vice presidential pick?

Well, so he, you know, he graduated from college, went to law school, and in his late 20s, he decided to run for Congress.

He was actually 29 the first time he ran for Congress.

And he ran two campaigns, one when he was 29, another one two years later.

He lost both and kind of lost in dramatic fashion.

The first one, he actually had this kind of very earnest gimmick where he rode around his district in a

bicycle and would like canvas the neighborhood and try to talk to voters on the sidewalk.

It was a publicity stunt, basically, but it worked.

And it kind of, while he lost that campaign, it created sort of a wholesome image for himself that a lot of people liked in the district.

So two years later, he runs again, but this time decides to take a much more aggressive tack, I think it's fair to say.

He ran kind of these vicious campaign ads.

In one of the most kind of famous ones in Indiana, people still talk about it.

He hired an actor and dressed him up like a cartoonish Arab sheik and thanked Pence's opponent for advancing the interests of foreign oil, which did not go over well.

My.

It's funny.

I remember this headline from, I was digging through the archives.

There's a headline in one of the newspaper stories that says, Pence urges clean campaign, calls opponent a liar,

which I think sums up kind of the way that Pence pursued this.

But what's interesting is that he didn't win either of those campaigns, but had created kind of a perch for himself in politics and so used it to launch a new career.

What was the new career?

He became a

conservative talk radio host.

Mike Pence.

There's some pretty incredible tape that we have from that era.

So the first question I have for you is, was justice served in the case of Kelly Flynn?

So it was the 90s and Pence as a conservative talk radio personality in Indiana, he billed himself as Rush Limbaugh on decaf,

which means he was, you know, kind of a kinder, gentler, more polite, more Midwestern version of Rush Limbaugh.

But

he also kind of forged this culture war persona that would serve him well for basically the rest of his career.

Was the general discharge just as served?

Call me at 800-603.

These tapes are amazing.

Sorry, I just had to say that.

I would like to know, McKay,

did Mike Pence like being

a sort of semi-prominent, at least at the state level, conservative voice in the media?

I mean, could that have been ⁇ it's interesting to to me that both he and Donald Trump had media careers granted at different levels, but that that was a sort of like pastime for both of them.

Yeah, I mean, I think he liked it.

But I, you know, I talked to people who knew him at that time, and they said even then it seemed like he was using it to lay the groundwork for another political bid at some point.

He kind of turned himself in to a local celebrity, a state, you know, political celebrity.

And often, you know,

the radio stations would have events and he would meet and greet people and kiss babies and stuff.

And he was kind of, even then,

seemed like he was acting like a candidate.

I think he saw it as a launching pad for a return to politics at some point.

It's funny, if you listen to the tape from back then, it's almost like a perfect time capsule of 90s era culture war stuff.

You know, he talked about Dr.

Kvorkian calling him a monster.

Throwback.

There was somebody, a woman in the Air Force who had committed adultery and was discharged, but honorably or not dishonorably enough.

And he used that as a whole conversation about how America didn't take adultery seriously enough.

I, for one, believe that the seventh commandment contained in the ten commandments is still a big deal.

It's the most important promise you'll ever make.

And holding people accountable.

He kind of realized that not only were these the issues he cared about most, but these were the issues his listeners really cared about.

And he used it to kind of build his platform.

So how does he go from

wrestling ball and decaf

back into actual politics?

So eventually he basically became a state celebrity in Indiana.

And when a congressional bid opened up, he ran.

But what's interesting is he goes to Congress and he basically is the kind of champion of conservative Christianity in Congress.

He was very aggressive about bills cracking down on abortion.

He was known to carry a Bible around and quote from it to explain his votes and to explain his political decisions.

And eventually, after several years in Congress, he was kind of such a force in conservative Christian politics that he was actually considering a run for president back in 2012.

He met with some senior leaders in the religious right who told him that he should go run for governor instead and use that as a platform to run for president later, which is what he did.

So he goes back to Indiana, becomes governor.

And it's funny because when he ran for governor, he cast himself as sort of the heir to the popular outgoing governor Mitch Daniels, who was kind of business-friendly and pragmatic and not a culture warrior at all.

And so once he got to office, he started out cutting taxes and taking on local unions and kind of doing the traditional Republican business things, kind of pursued fiscal conservatism.

But then in 2015, he signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and it kind of would end up defining his entire governorship.

Opponents shout out their frustration.

Supporters applaud.

As Indiana Governor Mike Pence signs into law a measure that critics say will allow businesses to turn away gay and lesbian customers.

And the governor says will uphold religious freedom.

This bill is not about discrimination.

It was a major controversy.

I mean, it totally blew up in his face.

It's funny.

He basically stumbled into it.

I don't think he quite realized what he was doing, but businesses said that they were going to pull out.

Conventions started pulling out.

The NCAA, which is headquartered in Indianapolis, said that this could imperil future events in the state.

Look, the NCAA has spoken out about this.

They said they're concerned.

You've got the final four about to take place in Indianapolis, and the Republican mayor of Indianapolis has said he opposes this idea, despite his Republican governor supporting it.

This is a big problem for him.

So, did he rescue himself?

Well, not exactly.

He accepted this invitation to go on this week with George Stephanopoulos.

Governor Mike Pence joins us now.

Good morning, Governor.

Thank you for joining us.

Wasn't a mistake to say that.

Thanks for the opportunity.

So was it a mistake to sign this law?

He was supposed to defend himself and defend the decision and make the case that this wasn't an anti-gay, anti-LGBT bill, but it was about religious freedom.

But the interview actually kind of became famous as like just a total trainer.

Sexual marriage.

So this is a yes or no question.

Is Advance America right when they say a florist in Indiana can now refuse to serve a gay couple without fear of punishment?

Well, let me explain to you the purpose of this bill.

Pence didn't anticipate that this bill would be as controversial as it was.

The language around it was totally unremarkable within the evangelical political circles that he kind of had inhabited for so many years.

Sir, I'm just bringing up the question.

questions.

That was one of your supporters who was talking about the bill right there.

It said it would protect a Christian florist

against any kind of punishment.

Is that true or not?

George, look, the issue here is, you know, is tolerance a two-way street or not?

So he kind of tried to draw on his Ashok's humility and folksiness, but it just does not go well, basically.

And he's asked the same question over and over and over again and keeps dancing around it and refusing to answer.

Final question, final yes or no question, Governor.

Do you think it should be legal in the state of Indiana to discriminate against gays or lesbians?

George, it's a yes or no question.

Come on.

Hoosiers don't believe in discrimination.

So this whole episode basically came to define his governorship.

It was, you know, you had the national meltdown on TV.

You had the business community backlash.

And after a few days of this, Pence basically caved and passed an amended version of the bill.

But by then, it was too late.

His 2016 presidential prospects were basically done.

His polls were in a free fall.

Democrats were raising money to try to beat him in re-election.

This was, for all intents and purposes, it seemed like the end of his political career.

And yet.

So

it clearly was not the end of his political career.

It was not.

See above reheartbeat away from the presidency.

What happened?

Well,

this is what's so amazing and what kind of makes him an interesting avatar for the religious right in general, because the person who came offering salvation, for lack of a better word, was Donald Trump.

It was not even clear that he was going to be able to win re-election for governor in the summer of 2016 when Donald Trump shows up and asks if you'd like to play a round of golf and talk about the vice presidency.

He's a a very good golfer.

Did you win?

He beat me like a drum.

Which is not really saying much.

So what was the divine intervention that made Mike Pence Donald Trump's vice presidential pick?

Right.

So, well, so back up, first of all, so Mike Pence plays a round of golf with Trump, decides he definitely wants it.

He wants to be on this ticket, right?

And most of the people on Trump's campaign also want Pence on this ticket because they think he's their best shot, right?

He has credibility with conservative Christian voters who Trump is not exactly, you know, the best at courting.

He has ties to the Republican establishment, which has been wary of Trump.

So everyone on the campaign wants Pence on the ticket.

Pence wants to be on the ticket.

Trump is a little iffy.

He, as decision time is nearing, is leaning toward picking Chris Christie as his running mate.

Basically, Christie is just a guy who Trump gets along with better.

There's more natural chemistry.

New Jersey, New York.

Yeah, they're kind of bridge and tunnel tri-state loudmouths, you know.

I mean, it's a lot easier to envision Donald Trump and Chris Christie broing out than Donald Trump and Mike Pence broing out, right?

I'll put it that way.

They both have broad shoulders.

Let's be clear, guys.

They both have broad shoulders.

Christie is definitely not a frat snitch.

Let's make that clear.

But then there is this miracle, divine intervention.

During a short campaign swing through Indiana, Trump gets word that his plane has broken down on the runway and that he's going to need to spend the night in Indianapolis.

Clearly, an act of God.

Well, or an act of Paul Manafort, as it turns out.

I report in the piece that Paul Manafort actually made this story up to keep Trump in town an extra night and give Pence one last chance to woo him.

I know, I know.

Can you imagine a senior aides handling Trump that way?

Well, the gambit worked.

You know, Pence and Trump dined together.

Trump was convinced.

And just a few days later, Trump announced Pence as his running.

The next vice president of the United States, Governor Mike Pence.

Thank you.

Thank you, everybody.

Thank you.

What did he say to him during that dinner?

Especially if Chrissy was waiting in the wings,

effectively measuring the drapes.

Was it just abject flattery?

Your broad shoulders and big hearts.

Yeah, I think he just really golf skills and talk about the shoulders.

No, I think that, I mean, it's been reported elsewhere that he actually impressed Trump by really going after Hillary Clinton.

He kind of demonstrated his old talk radio skills and

showed that he wasn't afraid to attack, you know, the Democratic candidate.

And I think that that's probably what sealed the deal, in addition to all the flattery and everything else.

By all accounts, it seems that Pence has been an avid, vocal, unquestionable supporter of the president.

So yes, in public he has been.

You know, he actually became kind of famous or notorious, depending on who you are, during the campaign for praising and defending Trump in every context, regardless of what happened.

I think it's inarguable that Vladimir Putin has been a stronger leader in his country than Barack Obama has been in this country.

So obviously

a lot of Christians and especially kind of Trump-averse Christians saw Pence's defenses of Trump as kind of

morally questionable, I think it's safe to say.

Yeah.

Why is it that even after, say, the Access Hollywood tapes come out, how is it that Pence is still in Trump's corner and how do Christians respond to that?

Well, so yeah, I mean, it's interesting.

I put this question to a lot of people around Pence because it was something I was really trying to understand.

I mean, you know, I'm a person of faith as well.

I have a hard time figuring out how you square those things.

But as I was talking to them, one interesting answer came from somebody who knows Pence really well.

He said that Pence has always believed in this evangelical biblical concept called servant leadership.

So the idea is rooted in the gospels where Jesus models humility by washing his disciples' feet and teaches that you have to humble yourself before you can become great.

So to the outsider, when they watch Pence, you know, kind of fawning over Trump and defending him and apologizing for him and rationalizing everything he does, that might look like, you know, sycophancy or nothing more than kind of partisanship, blind partisanship.

But he sees it as actually a fulfillment of Christian teachings.

He believes that he's always under somebody's authority.

Everyone is under someone's authority, and he is supposed to humbly submit to the will of Donald Trump because Donald Trump is the next president of the United States and he's serving Donald Trump.

It's something I should say that a lot of Christians would take issue with, this idea, but it's something that Pence has always believed in.

And actually all the way back to his congressional days, when he was in Congress, he taught his staffers that they were supposed to treat their constituents with this same idea, that they were servants to the constituents.

So Pence has always kind of believed in this.

It's funny, Kellyanne Conway, I talked to her for this piece, and she said that she knew that the two men would get along because Mike Pence,

his faith allows him to sacrifice his ego for the greater good,

which I think is probably a pretty good description of their dynamic.

However, not a trait in the

guy he reports to.

Yes, I think that's fair to say.

But surely, McKay, some of the things that Mike Pence has been forced to defend as far as Trump is concerned are repudiations of the very Christian ideals that Pence holds so dear.

I mean, how does he clear clear that?

No question.

I think that this is how he is able to reconcile or justify going to bat for Trump when he does things that are clearly in violation of Christian teachings or Christian ideals.

I think that the answer is basically: look, I don't agree with this.

I don't think this is the right behavior, but I'm under Trump's authority.

My job is to serve him.

And even if that means doing some things that are maybe a little out of character for me or maybe not what I would ideally like to do, I'll do it because I'm serving him.

I mean, it's a there's a despite the fact that they are, they go against the very Christian faith that drives, I mean, it just is that the pretzel logic.

Right.

Well, this is the pretzel logic here is that you can justify doing anything that way, right?

That's, I think, the problem.

But one of the things about this story is that

It's the story of Mike Pence, but it's also the story of millions of conservative Christians that have figured out a way to reconcile their support for Trump with their faith.

And it's, you know, it's something that is causing a lot of soul-searching and, frankly, theological debate within Christian circles still.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And I would say it's the same thing is happening with the Republican Party, especially the establishment wing of the Republican Party.

It's here's someone who stands in repudiation to many of our long-held policy goals, but

we're going to stay with him because it will further some objectives in a way that we stand to benefit somehow.

Right.

It's this constant dance that they're all doing, which is, what do we have to give up to be able to gain a little ground in this one initiative or in this one goal?

Stick with us.

When we come back, we're going to talk about a moment that might have been too much even for Mike Pence.

When the Access Hollywood bombshell dropped last October, was the faithful running mate contemplating a coup?

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Take pence.

Is adultery no longer a big deal?

in Indiana and in America?

I'd just love to know your thoughts.

A big story just dropped on Donald Trump.

Donald Trump, the comments on women you have not heard.

Breaking news, a bombshell in the presidential race tonight.

An audio recording surfacing of Donald Trump using vulgar language to talk about women bragging on tape about groping women's genitals trying to have sex with a married woman.

And saying, McKay, take us back to that moment that many observers thought would upend the Trump campaign in October of 2016.

How did the servant leader, Man of Faith, react to the the bombshell that dropped in mid-October?

Right.

So this was the one moment where Pence's kind of true motivation and goals kind of come through.

And this is something that we reported exclusively in this story.

But when the Access Hollywood tip came out, you'll remember this was reported during the campaign that Pence did, he kind of went rogue for a couple of days.

Vice presidential candidate Mike Pence not taking questions tonight from reporters on his running mate's comments on the set of Access Hollywood in 2005.

Tape of that being made public tonight.

He canceled a campaign event that he was supposed to show up at.

Anonymous quotes started popping up in the press about how Pence was beside himself over the revelation over the tape.

And it was reported earlier this year that Pence actually sent a letter to Trump saying that he needed time to decide whether he could stay with the campaign.

But in fact, according to several of the Republicans I talked to who are familiar with the situation, Pence wasn't just thinking about dropping out.

He was contemplating a kind of coup.

Within hours after the Post published the Access Hollywood tape, Pence made it clear to the Republican National Committee that he was ready to take Trump's place as the party's nominee.

And, you know, this obviously would have been, you know, unprecedented just a few weeks out from Election Day.

But, you know, the situation was really dire.

If you remember back then, I mean, Republicans were calling on Trump to drop out, rescinding their endorsements.

It was really unclear whether Trump was going to survive.

And Pence, I think, sensed an opportunity.

And this is totally opposite what he's saying out on television at this moment.

Well, and this is the thing about Mike Pence, this goes back to the kind of cocktail of ambition and religious belief that it kind of defines his whole worldview.

He is willing to

bow down to Trump, to serve him, to,

you know, to do whatever he needs to to stay close to Trump for now, right?

But ultimately, he has his eye on higher office and he believes that he's supposed to be the top guy, right?

He's supposed to be there to fulfill his mission.

His ultimate loyalty, I think he would tell you, is not to Donald Trump, it's to God.

And he believes the best way he can fulfill that mission is by

taking the big job.

So this is why some of the people I talk to around Pence and around Trump question

how loyal he really will be to Trump when push comes to shove.

You know, if there's some moment in the next, in the coming months or year

where Trump really is going to need Pence's backing, is he going to be there for him?

I don't know.

McKay, in your piece, you write, and I think that this is a very ominous paragraph, you said there is, of course, nothing inherently scary or disqualifying about an elected leader who seeks wisdom in scripture and solace in prayer.

What critics should worry about is not that Pence believes in God, but that he seems so certain God believes in him.

I have to ask you, especially as a person who finds faith in their everyday quotidia non-journalist life, how much of Pence's spirituality is covered, do you think, for ambition?

It's an interesting question.

I mean, I will say one of the things I personally found most compelling about Pence was the way that he was trying to reconcile his ambition with his faith.

And because frankly, look, anyone who is a religious person or a person of faith will tell you that this is a constant struggle in their lives, figuring out how you reconcile your ideals, your beliefs with

your goals, with your day-to-day living, with your anxieties and personality and everything, right?

You know, Mike Pence, I think it's playing out in larger-than-life fashion.

It's extremely high-profile, and the compromises are a little more glaring than maybe a lot of people normally live.

But, you know, I don't think that his spirituality is cover for his ambition.

At least I don't think he thinks about it that way.

I think he thinks that, you know, his ambition is to serve God and to do God's will and to and to help people.

I think he genuinely thinks that he has an earnest idealism about his work.

But this is why I, in that same paragraph you read, I bring up these questions, which are, you know, what happens when manifest destiny replaces humility?

And the line between faith and Hubert's blurs, what unseemly compromises get made.

I mean, this is what we're seeing take place kind of writ large in the religious right, which is millions of conservative Christians are

compromising the standards and the values that

they've they've championed for so long in pursuit of power.

And they would say once they get that power, they'll use it for good.

They'll do good things with it.

But, you know, it raises troubling questions about how far you're willing to go,

how much you're willing to compromise to get that power.

I'm curious about what Mike Pence's ascension to the presidency, if that were ever to happen, what type of a president do you expect he'd be?

And in particular, how would he carry forward the prerogatives of evangelical Christianity?

and its conservative movement.

Yeah,

that's a great question.

I think that you can look at his record for some hints at this.

Obviously, we don't know, right?

This is speculation, but you look at the things that have mattered most to him.

When he was in Congress, when he was in the House, he became kind of a standard-bearer for the pro-life movement and was constantly introducing bills to crack down or limit access to abortion.

I think that that's an issue that he cares deeply about and would probably pursue.

These religious freedom issues,

meaning protecting Christians, especially, he would say people of faith in general, from having to violate their religious beliefs and kind of giving them the freedom to,

you know, do some discrimination in the name of their own religious beliefs.

I think he'd probably pursue that.

He would definitely put conservative justices on the bench.

He would definitely pursue a fiscal conservative agenda, basically in line with what we've seen from Trump.

What's interesting is during the campaign, there was a lot of talk about the deep divisions within the Republican Party that ideologically speaking, and Pence and Trump kind of represented those divisions.

Trump was this new kind of nationalist populist talking about protecting entitlement programs and being more restrictionist in trade policy.

And Pence was a more traditional conservative.

Since they've been elected and kind of been in office, they've kind of just pursued the old line conservative Republicanism that we've gotten used to.

So I don't think you'd see a ton of change there.

But there's no question that Pence is also a,

in addition to being a social conservative, is a diet-in-the-wool kind of business donor class fiscal conservative as well.

McKay, what sense did you get in terms of his competence as an executive?

Because a few months ago after the inauguration, I spoke to Democrats who had been in the legislature when Pence was governor, and they, unsurprisingly, didn't have very flattering things to say about his skills managing.

And they pointed to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, the fact that he kind of stepped in it and didn't have any sense that it would be the defining moment of his governorship.

I mean,

the sort of common wisdom is that Pence would be a better executive than Trump, but how fair do you think that assessment is?

Well, yeah, I think that he would be a better executive inasmuch as he has...

more impulse control,

you know, probably

will act a little more professionally, have a better run office.

I mean, I will say, having dealt with the vice president's office throughout the course of this reporting this story, they're a lot more

easy to work with than a lot of the people around the president.

But you're right.

I mean, look, I talked to, I spent some time in Indiana for this story and I talked to people, both Republicans and Democrats, who were there for his governorship.

almost across the board, they'll tell you it did not go very well.

Some Democrats will say it was disastrous.

Republicans might be a little more generous, but even they'll say he did not excel at building consensus in the legislature.

The Republicans in the legislature didn't like the way that he tried to enact his agenda.

He had a lot of problems kind of corralling them, pushing forward policy initiatives that he cared about.

And there was always a sense, even then, that he was just using the governorship as a stepping stone to higher office, you know, and he barely even concealed that.

So that caused a lot of resentment

that affected, I think, his governorship as well.

But yeah, there frankly are not a lot of signs that he's

an extremely savvy or skilled executive.

So I don't know how he would do as president.

Aaron Powell, Jr.: I'm curious about what would happen if another president who is more, who leaned more on his faith in his public and political life were to take office again, more than Donald Trump does.

I mean, Donald Trump speaks a fair amount about scripture and the Bible.

But at this moment, there are some interesting tensions in the conversation about religion that weren't true true 20 years ago.

Right now, for example, we are hearing oral arguments in the Colorado baker's case.

Should a baker of wedding cakes be forced to make wedding cakes for a same-sex couple?

But at the same time, the Supreme Court has just allowed President Trump's travel ban to take effect, which is

kind of a step against religious freedom for Muslims.

How does Pence navigate those particular tensions?

And how is the conservative Christian movement navigating the fact that there is this political backlash against Islam?

Aaron Powell, yeah.

Well, this is one of the central tensions of

the Trump administration and also, frankly, a lot of conservative Christians when they approach these religious freedom issues.

Religious freedom often means when they talk about it, religious freedom for them, but not necessarily for other faiths.

There is, I should say, a contingent and a fairly vocal contingent of conservative Christians who are also outspoken in defense of Muslim freedom and other

faiths.

Russell Moore, who I quote in the piece, is from the Southern Baptist Convention.

He's been outspoken against the travel ban, against the various things that Trump has said about refugees.

So I do think that this is one area where Trump's kind of hard-edged nationalism and some would say xenophobia or appeals to xenophobia don't mesh perfectly with the agenda of the christian right but frankly again we've seen a lot of conservative christians come to his defense on that stuff uh and pence in the midst of it all you know he's done what he always does which is he's defended the president though i think i think if you go back and look at when trump first announced his his proposed muslim ban pence actually this was long before obviously he was going to join the ticket came out in opposition to it on twitter so you see where his his heart is, and then this is another issue where you see he's willing to kind of make compromises to be able to be close to power.

Aaron Powell, McKay, you also quote Russell Moore talking about how evangelicals experienced the sense of an almost existential threat, talking about the backlash to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

And that Moore says it was only a matter of time before cultural elites and their scornful attitudes would help drive Christians into the arms of a strong man like Trump.

In researching and reporting on this piece, I mean,

how much fault do you think lies with the left in sort of not making a home, if you will,

for Christian progressives, which at this point sounds like an oxymoron for the faithful in the flock, if you will?

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah, well, I mean, first I will say that the black church is a key component of the Democratic coalition.

And so there are certainly progressive Christians.

But yeah, I think that white Christians, especially, white conservative Christians, have increasingly over the past 10 years, five years, felt like a kind of triumphalism or a growing hostility from the left in the culture wars.

And they feel like it's not just that they've started to lose the culture wars, they've kind of shifted from offense to defense.

That is true, and that certainly contributes to it.

But they also feel like a lot of people on the left are not content with simply, you know, winning these battles over LGBT rights or abortion or whatever else, that they're now out for conquest, that they feel like

you've been punishing us for so long, we're going to get you back now.

And so I think that there is this, it's amazing, as I've done the reporting here, it's very easy for those of us who are not inside this world day to day to kind of miss the sense of urgency there is among conservative Christians in parts of this country.

Like they really feel like the culture of this country is, you know, going to hell, basically.

Or they, as one person told me, you know what in a handbasket.

It's really visceral.

Yeah, it's really visceral.

They feel like they're under threat.

And look, a lot of this is fed by conservative media, there's no question.

But they feel like

they need somebody to protect them.

And that's why Donald Trump had this ability to woo them.

It's not that they saw him as a moral exemplar.

They just saw him as a guy who promised to protect them.

And things had gotten so bad in their view, they felt like they were willing to vote for anyone who would protect them.

It's funny to hear you say that, McKay, and to think about the fact that right now there are a lot of groups in the country that feel like they're under threat.

Under threat.

Well, that's kind of one of the most amazing things about...

the culture wars over the last five years, 10 years, is everyone kind of feels that they're losing somehow, right?

When reality is, I think we can map the power structures in this country and we know who's who's on top, right?

But everyone sort of feels like they're under threat.

Everyone feels like they're losing ground.

Well, with that,

let's close out with our final segment, keepers.

As always, I ask my guests at Radio Atlantic what you've heard, read, listened to, watched recently that you do not want to forget.

Alex?

In this Yuletide season, gents, when

many people are celebrating

faithful midwinter events, whether that is Hanukkah or Christmas, I'm getting back in touch with my Irish Catholic heritage.

And yesterday night, I had a glass of eggnog, and my keeper for this week is very

heavy.

It is my keeper for this week.

is high fat content, high sugar content, high dairy content, drinkable beverages laced with alcohol.

Let me recommend them to you, whether you are a Muslim, whether you are Jewish, whether you are Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, or Christian.

It tastes delicious, like a cup of melted ice cream.

Non-alcoholic agnog is also delicious, too.

Not quite as delicious.

May I recommend the bourbon?

McKay, what would you like to keep?

My keeper is a profile written by my friend and former colleague at BuzzFeed News, Ruby Kramer, of Terry McAuliffe, who is the outgoing governor of Virginia, longtime Democratic fundraiser, and potentially a future presidential candidate.

It is both insightful and wildly entertaining.

In fact, somebody on Twitter counted up the number of exclamation points in the profile, found that there are 70 exclamation points,

which might sound exhausting, but she earns every one of them.

And the headline is Terry McAuliffe's dead serious advice for Democrats: Have some fun,

with an exclamation point right there.

And it actually makes an interesting point about how, at this moment of, you know, bleakness in American politics, Terry McAuliffe, for one thing, seems from this profile like he might be the only Democrat in America who's enjoying himself.

But also, he makes the case that Americans want happy warriors, and maybe Democrats could brighten up even among all the bleakness and grimness, And that might be a way to win the country over.

Anyway, it's a fantastic read, very fun to read, and I recommend it to everyone.

Awesome.

70 exclamation points.

That definitely is a keeper.

I will turn now to My Keeper.

My Keeper this week is Cuban Art.

There is a phenomenal exhibit.

Once again, I bring you

all of it.

Cuban art since 1950.

There is an exhibit right now.

It's at the Walker.

It was previously at Houston.

I imagine that it's going to be touring around the country called Adios Utopia: Dreams and Deceptions in Cuban Art Since 1950.

And I got to see this recently.

It's phenomenal.

It's currently at the Walker Art Center in Minneapolis.

Came there from Houston, Texas, at the Museum of Fine Arts.

And I imagine it may be coming to a city near you sometime soon.

But this is possibly the most significant exhibition of Cuban art in the U.S.

since 1944, I believe.

And it showcases a long history of Cuban art through very many different political phases in the country's development.

And it includes

not only

propaganda and propagandistic art, it includes the art that was subverting propaganda and propagandistic art.

There are these like pencil sketches.

Oh, that's so meta.

Oh my gosh.

There's pencil sketches of Cuban revolutionaries in full beards and dresses.

Wow.

It's such a rich collection.

Right now, we are amidst a revolutionary moment in many ways.

here in the U.S.

and in various places around the world.

There is so much just tremendous expression that is happening around us at this time in art.

This was a reminder that if you haven't gone outside in your city to a museum to see the searching cries of expression that artists are generating at this time, at this incredibly fermenting time in our culture, do so.

This expression will one day be captured in a museum somewhere.

But to be part of it now,

there are just ideas and there's a language there that is so rich.

So Cuban art, Adios Utopia, Dreams and Deceptions in Cuban Art Since 1950.

And if you don't have access to that exhibit, go to a museum.

Go to a museum.

It's a fermenting time.

It is a fermenting time.

So, McKay Coppins, thank you very much for joining us.

Thanks for having me.

My esteemed co-host, Alex, as always, thank you for joining us.

Matt, it's always a pleasure.

That'll do it for this week's Radio Atlantic.

This episode was produced and edited by Kevin Townsend and Diana Douglas with production support from Kim Lau.

Thank you to our colleague, McKay Coppins, for joining us.

And thanks as always to my esteemed co-host, Alex Wagner.

We'd like you to leave us a voicemail with your answers to a question this week.

What are the most interesting ideas you encountered in 2017?

Tell us something you read, heard, watched, or thought up completely on your own this year that you just thought was brilliant.

Leave us your message with the best idea of the year at 202-266-7600.

Check us out at facebook.com/slash radioatlantic and theatlantic.com slash radio.

Catch the show notes in the episode description.

And if you like what you're hearing, please do rate and review us in Apple Podcasts and subscribe in your preferred podcast app.

We certainly appreciate it.

Most importantly, though, thank you for listening.

Whatever you do, don't be a frat switch.

We'll see you next week.

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