The Future of Anti-Trump Republicans (feat. Charlie Dent)

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Welcome to Raging Moderates.

I'm Jessica Tarlove.

Today I'm joined by former Republican Congressman Charlie Dent.

He is a lifelong conservative who broke with his party to support Joe Biden in 2020 and then Kamala Harris in 2024, making him one of the few Republicans willing to say enough to Donald Trump's grip on the GOP.

These days, he's the executive director of the Aspen Institute's congressional program, where he's focused on fostering real bipartisan dialogue in Congress.

He's been vocal about the need for a reckoning within his party and is working to steer the conversation back to responsible governance, trust, and civility.

Congressman Dent, welcome to the show.

Jessica, great to be with you.

Thank you.

Yeah, no, thank you for joining us.

I'm excited to talk to you.

You're brave soldiers, you never Trumpers, who actually

come over and support the other side.

And that's where I want to begin our conversation.

So you backed Biden in 2020, Kamala Harris in 2024.

What ultimately pushed you?

to cross the aisle in both elections?

Was it Trump?

How he redefined the Republican Party?

Can you talk us through your journey?

Yeah, I mean, for me, look, I feel

you called me a conservative.

Some people call me center-right or common-sense conservative.

I mean, moderate, pragmatic, choose your favorite term.

But what drove me away was, you know, I always said this wasn't,

these elections with Donald Trump were not about right or left from a policy perspective.

I always thought they were about right or wrong.

often thought that what the MAGA movement represented in the form of Donald Trump was a particular type of protectionism, isolationism,

nativism, at times nihilism, and what I would call a dangerous populism.

And it really, it's not particularly ideological.

It's really about loyalty to a particular individual.

It's not about fidelity to any type of principles.

If you were to ask me what kind of a person, you know, I kind of view myself as an Edmund Burke type, that if, you know, if we're going to be Republicans, that we should be about incremental change.

And we believe in evolutionary systems, not revolutionary systems.

We believe in measured statements, temperance.

We believe in

discipline.

And that's kind of where we come from, stability and order.

I mean, that's where I think a lot of sort of center-right folks come from or center-right conservatives come from.

And I don't think that's where the party is right now.

It's taken on a form of

radical positions like on tariffs that are completely antithetical to free markets and certainly represent a type of revolutionary change that should really appall people who would kind of embrace that center-right or conservative ideology.

You're from Pennsylvania, represented there.

You have someone like a Chris DeLuzio

who

talks a bit of a protectionist game, not nearly like what Trump is talking about, but you have a Bernie Sanders as well.

Fetterman has dabbled in this too.

How do you feel like the difference between the kind of positions that they're supporting when you say we have to protect American manufacturing manufacturing and American workers versus how Trump is implementing this tariff plan can be better explained to the American people.

Well, Trump's tariff policy is essentially very similar to what the AFFL-CIO would be proposing.

The AFFL-CIO Democrat, Sean Fane at the UAW, is very supportive of many of these tariffs, apparently.

And I guess what I find remarkable is that Democrats have not been able to articulate a strong, forceful opposition to the Trump tariffs because many of them agree with the basic policy.

They might not like the way Trump is doing it.

But for years, you know, I've been in politics.

I've heard plenty of Democrats from Bernie Sanders and others, you know, who've embraced this idea of protectionism in a very naked form.

And that's what, I guess, disturbs me most about where my party is is that we were not that party.

We were the party that was embracing opening markets for American producers.

We had a forward-looking aspirational view of the world that we could actually compete.

And many of those who are advocating this type of protectionism have thrown up their hands and said, boy, you know, we're just not good enough anymore.

And, you know, look, I'm all for using tariffs and counteravailing duties on a very targeted basis, but in response to problems, you know, illegal dumping or illegal subsidies, certainly people, countries that are using child labor and other forms of what we would consider to be real trade abuses, or in the case of China, where they coerce technology transfers, which is a big problem, problem, or steal intellectual property.

Okay, that's how you use them, but we don't use these across-the-board tariffs against friend and foe alike and think that this is somehow going to grow our economy.

It'll just have the opposite effect.

It'll be very negative and it'll punish American consumers as well as manufacturers and farmers.

And it's pretty self-evident to me.

And just look at how the markets have reacted.

If we need any further explanation, but you're seeing it all across the country, people are reacting.

Just the other day in the Allentown morning call, Mac trucks said they're laying off 250 to 350 employees, largely over the tariffs.

I mean, this is what we're dealing with.

So everything you just said is true.

He has the lowest approval rating in 70 years, underwater on every issue.

Still, you know, does well on border security, which

kudos to you.

He's basically shut down the border, which is something that we desperately needed.

to happen.

But it feels like people can disapprove of him and it still doesn't transfer over to turning on him.

And this is not just the MAGA base.

Like CNN did polling that showed if the election were, you know, held today, who do you think would do a better job managing this?

And he still edged out Kamala Harris.

And what do you think that is that doesn't allow people to transfer over to the other side to just say, actually, I don't think he could do this job.

First, look, Democratic approval ratings are in the tank as well.

I mean, their numbers are not very good.

Many people, I saw a poll recently suggesting about 70% of voters thought they were out of touch with the American public.

But at the end of the day, what I do think motivates those voters who would prove decisive in a presidential election, these are the voters who are not firmly in the Trump camp or firmly in the Democratic or Conway Harris camp.

These are people who are persuadable.

And it's quite clear to me that many of them were motivated by economic issues.

And so, to the extent that we are having this debate about, you know, where Trump said he was going to lower prices on day one.

And here we are, you know, going into a trade war that is having real world impacts on people's 401ks.

They're worried about their jobs.

You know, a recession seems probable at this point.

And I think economic issues will drive the day.

And of course, you know, what we're hearing, this isn't, none of this policy is lowering prices.

So even though the president is, I think, largely in step with where the American people are on border security, where they clearly want the border controlled, they might not like the way Trump does things.

I think at the end of the day,

these economic issues are going to motivate those other, what I'll call swing voters, what's left of them.

And, you know, remember, too, I also looked at some polling recently, too.

You know, on this 100-day anniversary, there must have been a dozen polls.

And so I'm kind of pulled out.

I try not to talk about polls too often, but they all came out and it showed the generic congressional ballot, I think, was about minus seven for the Republicans.

So, I mean, in other words, the Democrats were doing better there.

And remember, midterm elections are usually not not about the party out of power, even though Democrats are viewed very unfavorably.

Luckily for them, the election is not going to be about them.

It's going to be about Donald Trump and the Republican Party.

That's how midterms typically go.

Yeah.

History will be on our side for that, but

you're still fearful, or I'm still fearful and can't believe that we're only

110 days in, whatever it is, at this point.

What do you say to Republicans who feel similarly to you, but can't bring themselves to take the box for a Democrat.

Well, what I tell them, you know, you vote your values.

And I said, you know, here's my values as a Republican.

I do think we should be about a strong national defense or peace through strength.

And that means you embrace your allies.

You don't embrace autocrats like Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-un.

Why would we do this?

And so that's one issue.

We should embrace economic freedom as a party.

We should be vigorously opposed to these types of indiscriminate across-the-board tariffs.

We should be for certain things and against certain things.

I mean, so we need to articulate this.

We should be for the Constitution, that we believe in the rule of law.

These are fundamentally Republican and conservative principles.

We should be about the union, trying to keep it together.

Our founder was Abraham Lincoln.

That's what he was about, and why our party was born to maintain this union, as big and diverse as it is, and as challenging challenging as it can be.

So these are just a few core principles that I think we need to continue to beat on.

And in fact, I'm part of an organization called Our Republican Legacy, where we have articulated many of these principles where we are trying to talk to Republicans about

embracing real principles, not about simply adopting whatever it is that the president wants.

Is the expectation that the Republican Party can go back to what it once was after Trump, because he did tell Kristen Walker that he's not thinking about a third term.

Steve Bannon has other ideas about that.

We're not here to kind of debate whether he's going to do that or not.

But it's a big open question, what the party looks like post-Trump.

Yeah, I don't think the party, I don't believe the party goes back to where it was.

But at the same time, some of those principles I just laid out

are enduring principles.

They're the ones that have sustained the party since since Abraham Lincoln.

And so I think that we should focus on those core principles once again.

Like I said, we should be talking about peace through strength.

We should be talking about embracing allies.

We should be talking about the Constitution, the Union,

economic freedom.

We should be talking about those things that...

that I think

most Republicans still embrace, even those who support Trump.

There are a lot of people who are Trump voters who aren't real happy with everything he says and does and may disagree with him.

They're voting for Trump because they so much dislike where the Democrats are on many policy issues.

So I think that's really where we need leadership in the party to present a counter narrative.

Quite often, you know, you hear the MAGA narrative, and where I've been critical of some of my former congressional Republican colleagues is they've been too quiet.

that you cannot counter that MAGA narrative with silence.

Silence is silence.

If there's nothing narrative to counter MAGA, MAGA's argument, well, then MAGA is going to win every single time.

But I think because of this trade war, there's a tremendous opening for a lot of Republicans to counter.

And remember, too, Donald Trump's not ever going to be on the ballot again, at least not legally or constitutionally.

He's not going to be on the ballot again.

And so he's a lame duck president.

And Republicans will be up in 2026.

And many of them are going to need separation from Donald Trump.

And now is the time to start making arguments about how they are different than the president, particularly those who are in those marginal and swing districts who hope to survive.

They're not going to be able to run simply embracing Donald Trump, whose approval rating is what, around 40 now, the low 40s.

That's not a way you're going to win an election.

So I think there's an opportunity now for Republicans to start speaking up.

Yeah, when you look at what the reconciliation bill will have in it and those huge cuts to Medicaid, and you mentioned swing district, Republicans who in most cases have hundreds of thousands of more people in their districts on Medicaid than the margins that they won.

You think this is going to be an obvious one, but time and again,

something that Trump does or Trump allies

do

scares people to the point that they feel like they can't even represent their constituents.

Well, remember what happened during Trump won on let's take the Medicaid issue.

And at that point, reconciliation was being used to repeal and replace Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act.

And I was one of the folks who rang the bell on the Medicaid issue at the time because you remember what the debate was then?

Many states like mine had expanded Medicaid and that it was basically we would have ended up dumping all sorts of millions of people back onto the market with an insufficient tax credit.

They would have lost coverage.

And I just said, this is not acceptable.

And I was making arguments on behalf of various Republican governors, four of whom asked me to present Donald Trump with a letter about about this issue, which I did directly.

What was that like?

Well, I had two meetings with him, actually.

One in the Oval Office where I gave him the letter.

He was respectful.

He listened and I told him my concerns with the bill.

And that meeting ended fine.

That was on Tuesday.

Thursday, I got invited back.

And it was a SmackDown meeting.

You know, why, you know, basically in front of a whole bunch of people,

I told him I wouldn't vote for the bill and he, and I was against it.

And he was, you know, he took it well the first time.

It was the second and third time he went crazy and told me I was going to destroy the Republican party i'm blaming you charlie it's your fault you know i might as well just go to parades i'll go cut ribbons i'm blaming you taxes are done it's all over you're being very selfish you know he's going off on me that's a pretty good imitation it got really interesting he says to me

he's berating me you know like why i'm not voting for the bill and i told him why and he because he basically had me back in on a thursday and i there were 17 members of congress around the table in the cabinet room and he said to me i was the second one he called on and that's how i was voting and i said i'm against the bill i'm going to vote against it.

And then, you know, then he said, well, why?

And I said, well, for the same reasons I told you on Tuesday, you know, it's Thursday and nothing's really changed.

And so, but bottom line is after he got done, you know, trying to berate me or trying to bully me, I said to him, Mr.

President, can I ask you a question?

He said, yeah.

And I said, are you telling me?

Because he kept saying taxes are done.

Taxes are done.

You remember at that time they were trying to do tax reform.

And I said, are you telling me, Mr.

President, that if we don't pass this

health care bill in this particular form, we won't be able to do tax reform because the tax baseline is not going to be low enough.

That's exactly right.

And when you lose, you lose.

He goes off again, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You know, same stuff, repeating himself.

And it kind of got nasty.

And then, after about a long time of this, they were going back and forth a little bit.

And finally, it ends.

And this is all picked up in one of the tell-all books, Team of Vipers, for about three pages.

I didn't know that until the book was written.

Didn't even know anybody was taking notes or recording it.

Someone is always taking notes.

Someone who was there.

Cliff Sims, who worked for me, wrote the book.

He did it.

So basically, it all breaks.

So he gets done with his tirade.

I had asked him my questions.

And then we just sat there staring at each other, a real awkward silence that I forgot about, but they recounted in the book.

And then he said, yeah, well, Trump realized at that moment that wasn't budging.

So then Trump goes around the whole room, asks everybody how they're voting.

Yes, lean, yes.

That took a while.

And then

one of the guys, and I, now a couple of them lied to him, but that's it, but that's to be expected.

And so after it's all over, after 45 minutes of all this going around the room and, you know, chit-chatting about other things, he turns back at me and he says, you still a hard no?

I said, yeah, I'm still a no, Mr.

President.

With that, he goes off again.

Now, I was really getting annoyed at this point.

I finally, I waited like five or 10 seconds.

I said, oh, come on, Mr.

President.

He said, oh, I'm done talking to you.

I don't want to hear.

Tell them.

And he turns away like that and looks in the other direction.

The meeting breaks up.

I just look at Mike Pence and say, Mike, you know, this isn't helping anything.

And then one of the young aides came up to me

who I had known.

He'd worked in the house.

And he said, hey, Mr.

Dent, Mr.

Dent, why don't you go up to the president privately now?

The meeting's breaking up.

Just tell him you'll vote for the bill.

And I know what his motivation was.

Mark Meadows and Jim Jordan at that particular moment weren't for the bill either.

I think he wanted Trump to blame Meadows and Jordan.

But I said, hey, I said to this young guy, hey, you know what?

I came here and no, I'm an F no now.

Okay.

And so I'm going to spend the next 24 hours finding another four or five Republicans to vote against this piece of crap of a bill.

And so the next day, they had to pull the bill off the floor.

We got a couple of guys to vote against it.

And so that was in March of 2017.

So the point I'm making is Medicaid was a tough issue then.

It's a tougher issue now.

You know, because so many more Republicans now recognize that much of their base is on Medicaid.

And so I think, you know, if we couldn't reform Medicaid the way they wanted to then, why do we think we'll be able to do it now?

I mean, it's, I mean, they might try to stick a work requirement in there.

Beyond that, I'm not seeing how they're going to do too many significant changes, particularly in the U.S.

Senate.

The House might pass something, but the Senate, I think, is going to be a bit more squeamish.

They have a lower threshold for paying.

They feel, you know, the House has a higher threshold.

They'll pass bills that are going to go nowhere,

even though they're very politically damaging, which was the case back in 2017 on the repeal replace, the bill that the House passed.

I warned colleagues, the policy is bad.

The politics are worse.

The bill would never be adopted by the Senate, never in a million years.

And, of course,

nothing close to the House bill was even considered in the Senate.

Yeah, yeah.

And you are right.

I talk to a lot of Congress people and say, oh, we passed all of these bills.

Yeah, but that's obviously not going anywhere when you even have Josh Hawley saying that he's not going to sign it.

Yeah.

And

Rand Paul, I think, has said he's against it.

Oh, Rand Paul is now my Democratic hero.

I mean, listening to him give floor speeches about, you know, the Boston Tea Party and tariffing.

I'm, I'm all for Rand Paul right now.

He's absolutely right on tariffs.

You know, he's going to be against reconciliation, not because of the Medicaid change, just because he's got other reasons.

But he's certainly right about the tariffs.

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Charlie Sheen is an icon of decadence.

I lit the fuse and my life turns into everything it wasn't supposed to be.

He's going the distance.

He was the highest paid TV star of all time.

When it started to change, it was quick.

He kept saying, no, no, no, I'm in the hospital now, but next week I'll be ready for the show.

Now, Charlie's sober.

He's going to tell you the truth.

How do I present this with any class?

I think we're past that, Charlie.

We're past that, yeah.

Somebody call action.

Yeah.

A.K.A.

Charlie Sheen, only on Netflix, September 10th.

In 2017, you told the New Yorker that the Republican Party needs a reckoning.

I would imagine that you still feel that that's the case going into whatever 2028 will hold.

There are a lot of conservatives or

center right people, moderates, whatever you want to self-identify as, who feel like the Republican project just needs to be left behind and that there is no point in trying to resuscitate something that for all of the values that you just extolled in the last 15 minutes, you don't see any of that being represented even by the folks that you would imagine would, like Amarco Rubio, who has had a full conversion to Trumpism.

What do you say to those types, you know, who are at the bulwark now, for instance, and seem like they're just all in

for the Democrats?

Well, I think this is where I kind of maybe differ.

I mean, if we want to change the party,

we have to still kind of stay within it.

I do feel strongly about that.

And frankly, you know, the Democrats have tremendous opportunities, but they're very much tied to their organized labor base.

And on an issue like tariffs, they just can't make the argument because many of them agree with the policy, the basic policy.

They don't like the way Trump's doing it.

And I think the Democrats have that challenge.

And also,

I think we've also seen, too, where the Democrats have struggled,

particularly on the border.

It was clear that the American people were appalled by.

you know, the mayhem at the border during the Biden administration, and they were just too lackadaisical about it for at least the first three years of their administration.

It didn't get serious, and it was a

very important issue.

People do believe in the nation's sovereignty and that there should be an orderly system of entrance and exit.

And the Democrats just weren't able to speak to it.

And I think also, too, you know, and I think where the Democrats also get into trouble, and what's I think keeping a lot of Republicans away is on some of these issues where, you know, they feel like a lot of Republicans feel like the Democrats might be a little too condescending for them.

They speak down to them.

Like, For example,

I'm for transgender's rights.

I think a person should be able to transition and we should respect that.

But when that situation happened at the University of Pennsylvania where the swimmer transitioned from male to female and broke all the records,

blew away everybody at the NCAAs, a lot of people said,

that's unfair.

And then they were called transphobic.

And they said, well, no, I'm not transphobic.

I just have a pair of eyes and ears.

And, you know, I think that's that's unfair.

And then I think there are just too many on the left who, you know, just didn't know how to respond appropriately to people who saw things

that they questioned and without being ridiculed or told that they're, you know, they're a hateful person.

And I think this is where the Democrats have to kind of stop listening to this.

this fringe base of theirs

and start talking like normal people to folks.

And I think that's keeping a lot of Republicans away because I think Democrats have some opportunities.

Like Republicans for years, you know, I was one of the, I was one of the, I was, well, the last, you know, pro-choice Republican in the House when I left.

There might be a couple now since Dobbs, but,

but who actually voted against a 20-week abortion ban and I voted, you know, to fund Planned Parenthood.

I was the only one there for a while.

And I found that, you know, Republicans were not on the right side of issues like that.

That came into stark relief during the, you know, their post-Dobbs.

Monroe was overturned.

And boy, oh, boy, then all of a sudden the politics of that issue changed, and Republicans realized that they were on the wrong side of that issue.

So the Democrats had an opportunity,

but that was not the only issue they had.

They just haven't been able to speak to the economic anxieties of people to the extent they needed to.

Like I said, during the Biden administration, there were two the Democrats just did not take inflation seriously enough

early on.

Oh, they said it was transitory.

When Larry Summers is out there, you know, beating the drum, telling them

it's an enormous problem.

They just didn't do it.

And then, you you know, I was one of the folks, too, when during

the previous race, when it was going to appear that Biden was going to run and Trump was going to run.

And I was saying at the time, you know, close to 70% of the voters think one candidate is too old and the other too dangerous.

What part of this aren't the parties hearing?

You know, especially the Democrats who.

Were they listening to you?

Because it feels as if you should have been an incredibly important voice.

No, they didn't listen to me.

No,

I was encouraging no labels at the time to try to put together a fusion ticket.

And it was, frankly, it was the Democrats, or at least people aligned with the Democrats, who went apoplectic.

They said they're going to destroy whoever runs.

And I would say to them, well, you know, there were groups, I think that one group called Third Way was one of the groups leading this.

And I said, well, you ought to call it Two Way because they only wanted two candidates.

I said, you can't, on the one hand, argue that democracy is at risk, that we're going to lose it, and then do everything you can to undermine

candidates from getting on the ballot.

You're trying to, you know, we need less democracy in order to save democracy.

They said, you know, if there was a third party candidate, an independent candidate, that that would have elected Trump.

And I said, well, one, we don't know that.

And two,

you got a problem with your candidate.

And, you know, what don't you see in this?

And they didn't want to hear it until, of course, that debate where Biden faltered badly.

And then everybody recognized, not every, not immediately.

I wrote an op-ed the morning after said that, you know, Biden needs to go.

And I got a lot of hate from a lot of Democrats.

So we don't need to hear this, that.

And then, you know, three weeks later, he was gone.

And everybody kind of came to that position.

It was a rough three weeks.

If we had more time, I would like to talk to you further about the no labels issue, because it was pretty clear from the states where a third party candidate would have had the most effect, that it would have swung it towards Trump.

And you even see the impact of RFK Jr.

moving over to the Trump side and Tulsi Gabbard, that it shifted, you know, mid-level partisans in that direction.

But I want to ask you about 2028.

My quick view on that, though, was, but they weren't looking at states like Texas and Kansas and others where that third-party candidate might have harmed Donald Trump significantly.

They were only looking at battlegrounds.

Well, battlegrounds decided, though.

We lost all of those.

So anyway, what are you thinking about 2028 on the Democratic side?

Do you see anyone that can satisfy the purple America lane?

You know, I'm sure they have candidates out there.

You know,

you're hearing about Newsom and Gretchen Whitmer.

Certainly Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania would be quite formidable.

I know Josh well, you know, good man.

I think that those three are certainly probably top of list.

You're hearing Westmore, of course, in Maryland.

They have an interesting group of candidates.

I'm not so sure Newsom would be the right one.

A California progressive now.

He's trying to center himself a bit.

You know, Whitmer, I think, has an interesting profile.

I know she's gotten dinged up a little bit over that White House meeting.

It'll be fine by then, I think.

I think so too.

But, you know, I think between Whitmer and Shapiro and Westmore, those are probably the three that jump out at me.

There may be some others, but those are the three that are just kind of striking me as who could be inside lane.

Of course, now you have to watch that progressive lane.

What does AOC do?

Does she decide to jump in?

She would be a very formidable primary candidate, probably a disastrous general election candidate, but a formidable, formidable primary candidate.

Yeah, it says half one.

I mean, there'll definitely be a heated progressive lane and then a heated moderate lane, though that language feels counterintuitive, heated and moderate.

But it'll be interesting to see a lot of governors get out there because they've actually done the managerial job and have accomplishments to talk about, not just huge floor speeches, even though I love my senators.

We have a question at the end that we ask all of our guests.

What's one issue that makes you rage?

And what's one issue that you think we should all calm down about?

What issue makes me rage?

Well, I guess if there are any issues making me rage right now, it is

this American disengagement, which takes the form of a few issues.

It's the tariffs.

I mean, tariffs are a form of disengagement.

We are walling ourselves off.

What also makes me rage is part of this disengagement is this total rejection of our friends and allies, the treatment of Zelensky in the Oval Office and abandoning Ukraine by the president in favor of Russia.

Now, they'll deny that, but it sure feels that way.

I mean, that makes me rage that we've also just unilaterally just eliminated much of our soft power arsenal in this country.

Again, another form of disengagement.

That kind of makes me rage.

And I feel like that, you know, people, this is all happening.

And we're pretending that there are not going to be any geopolitical or economic implications for us.

And there will be.

This is so self-inflicted and so unnecessary where the United States of America is the greatest, strongest, most powerful nation on earth.

And we're not acting like it.

We're acting like we are somehow this aggrieved victim that has suffered all these past 80 years since the Second World War.

My view has always been we've done pretty damn well over the years,

particularly since the Second World War.

We created an international order.

We let it.

And now we're walking away from it, trying to blow it up.

And many of the very friends and allies who benefited from it are now trying to figure out a way to restore it as best they can because it's meant so much.

It makes me rage that we've decided that Canada is now a threat.

And that now there's serious talk of annexation.

I mean, this is radical.

I mean, when Donald Trump ran, he didn't talk about annexing Canada.

I mean, I didn't hear any of this stuff.

I mean, it's just, I mean, I just think this is very extreme, and it makes me rage.

And what was the other, what makes me, what do you think we need to calm down about?

I think we all need to calm, you know, we all talk about our losing our republic.

And I've, look, I know there are threats to the constitutional order.

I get it.

But I still have faith in many institutions and that, you know, we do have a lot of folks you have strong civil society groups and the courts that I think will do what they need to do at a time like this does that mean they're under under threat yeah we're still under threat but I think we just need to take a deep breath and recognize that we are a lot stronger institutionally than we've given ourselves credit for that's hopeful we need a lot of mike pence's and I'm not someone who was a fan of Mike Pence

until January 6th basically but um I appreciate it and thank you just generally for joining us.

I'm sure our listeners are going to love hearing from you.

And thanks for your time, Congressman.

Thank you, Jessica.

Great to be with you.

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