Democrats Point Fingers as Trump Assembles Cabinet

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Welcome to Raging Moderates.

I'm Scott Galloway.

And I'm Jessica Charlov.

Jess, how are you?

I'm okay.

Yeah.

I'm here.

How are you?

I would describe my condition as stable.

Okay.

Yeah.

I'm still processing, but I'm out of my pajamas.

I actually went outside today.

Yeah.

We got above 60.

So it's like, that's the equivalent of a visa for London.

And I went and had lunch.

I was social.

I didn't order alcohol.

I haven't been watching Netflix non-stop.

Some of my stocks are down today.

So it's back to kind of regular times.

Why are stocks going down?

Are we not Trump high anymore?

Well, they went up three or four days in a row, but I think they've taken a bit of a,

well, at least my stocks are down today.

I don't know.

I don't know what's going on.

But in general, it just feels like slowly but surely, it just amazes me that you always overestimate the impact of everything in the moment.

One of my learnings in life is nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems.

And I think you always estimate the ripple effects of things that seem big in the moment and underestimate the knock-on effects or second-order effects of things that don't seem that big at the time.

Yeah,

the long tale on despair, maybe, that will be coming.

I like that.

The long tale of despair that's my biography you just titled my biography the long tale of despair all right i want a writer credit though when when it comes out but i i think that probably is happening for people because they don't want to do 2016 again like however you felt about it we can all agree that

it was a colossal overreaction or underreaction, depending on what camp you were in.

And I think people these days want to seem really cool and together.

Like, let's be real, guys.

The sun will shine tomorrow.

I will get out of my stretchy pants and I will have lunch and won't have a cocktail like Scott Galloway.

But your lunch cocktail will probably come in like three months when the deportation force starts

and the long tail of despair finds deportation force.

I mean, they do know branding.

right like these are great marketers over there at trump hq okay in today's episode of raging moderates we're discussing Democrats start the blame game, Trump's cabinet starts to take shape, and how we think the media should handle political coverage moving forward.

And we try to end on a positive note.

So Harris conceded last week.

Oh, this is my favorite stat.

Did you see that bar graph of mentions of election interference on Twitter and how it was just enormous?

And then about the moment it became clear he was going to win, they just stopped.

They just stopped.

So when the Democrat has a shot, there's election interference anywhere.

When the Republican is winning, it's democracy at work.

Anyways, sorry, couldn't have it.

It's funny how that works.

Plus the outcome.

Crazy, right?

So anyways, they began pointing fingers to Democrats behind the scenes.

Some blame Biden for running at all, saying he should have stepped aside sooner.

Others argue Harris should have been tougher on issues, including attacking Trump's billionaire ties.

Jess, where do you think?

I think it's more productive, actually, to talk about why he won than why she lost.

But anyways, we're not here to be productive.

We're here to be entertaining.

Where do you think the real blame lies here?

What do you think happened?

Well, too many things happened for the way that people are doing the blame game.

Like picking a lane is not smart here.

There are, you know, in Texas, their highways have like six lanes on each side.

That's basically the road to loss here.

And I think the road to winning for Trump as well, since we should do this evenly.

And I like your framing about how he won as well, because that shows the Democrats' weakness in all of this.

And I'm really in two minds about it, because on the one hand, what looked like a monster landslide on election night is not that once all the votes are counted.

And this was part of the

fake results or the blue pilling of it where people were like, well, where did those 15 million votes go?

You know, because Biden, on election night, Kamala had 15 million less votes than Biden had gotten, but they hadn't counted the West Coast and some states go more slowly, et etc.

And now it's looking like it'll be a little bit less than it was in 2020, but his win is going to be about 1.5% in the popular vote, which puts his margin at number 50 among all 55 presidential elections.

And his Electoral College win will be number 43 amongst all 60 presidential elections.

Now, I'm not saying that to minimize what Donald Trump pulled off because putting together.

Oh, you are a little bit.

You're minimizing a little bit.

I am trying to be a realist

in the sea of hyperbole about this.

And I think it is important that people who care about this election, who dedicated their time, who got out there and knocked on doors and made phone calls, et cetera,

understand

that this was not the biggest shellacking that ever existed.

It was a loss and it was really bad because it was to Donald Trump.

But that's a big part of it.

I think we got the absolute shit kicked out of us.

And this election isn't the popular vote.

It's the the electoral vote.

But the bottom line is they went 100% where it mattered.

And we were all, I don't know about you, but all my friends were texting me from the ground in Scranton, Pennsylvania saying we're 10 to 1 knocking on doors.

You know what?

Technology did not work?

Knocking on doors.

Yep.

And in an age of polarization, in this type of divisiveness where everyone's in their own bubble, I don't ever think you're going to see 45, 55, or 60, 40 like you did with LBJ.

I don't think there's any getting around it.

The Democrats are trying to say, well, slow your roll.

It wasn't as big a victory as you think.

They fucking destroyed us, Jess.

I said I'm in two minds, and you're only picking on one of my mindsets.

Sorry, I interrupted you.

Go ahead.

Go ahead.

No, I, that is.

Give us the other mind.

Give us the other mind.

That's correct.

Obviously, I mean, sweeping all the battlegrounds.

I mean, that was the number one

model out of Nate Silver's probability model.

And the number two model that happened the second most times was Kamala Harris wins all seven states.

And that's what happens when you have a margin of error race.

I was just saying, like in Wisconsin, for instance, she got more votes than Joe Biden did in 2020, and the margin was like 30,000 votes.

My point is that that is a, that could have been winnable.

We're not talking about he won 300,000 more votes than Wisconsin or something like that.

But now I'm

almost won Wisconsin.

Well, Wisconsin matters a lot every four years to people.

It should matter more in general.

On the shellacking front, I think this coalition that he put together,

if it holds, will

cause one of the biggest political realignments, certainly that we've seen in modern history.

And that there appears, besides having more of a working-class economic message, which frankly, I think Biden and Harris had a decent amount of.

I mean, they're walking picket lines, right?

They're talking about raising the minimum wage.

They're giving the Teamsters their pensions, et cetera.

And Trump's up there, like, I should cut taxes for my pals.

I don't know how you put that back together.

And I was digging into, because we definitely have to talk about the men.

The men are not all right, as you're always saying.

But the women weren't all right either.

The young women, I'm not just talking about, you know, Gen X women in the suburbs who were like, you know what, maybe I had an abortion referendum that I could vote yes on and then I'm going to vote for Trump.

I'm talking about Gen Z women won seven points in his direction.

So yes, the spread was still massive between them.

But young people, I think because of how they are consuming information and the data on that is wild, that like if you read newspapers or watch linear TV,

you are voting for Harris.

If you watch YouTube, listen to podcasts and go on Reddit, then you're voting for Trump.

And the level of misinformation that it was, like they did, the Washington Post did a blind test of all the policies.

The most popular ones were Kamala Harris's policies.

And then there was also a survey that looked at what Republicans and Democrats think about reality, like where the economy is, where crime is.

And we live in two absolutely diametrically opposed worlds, one of which accurately reflects the numbers out there.

That's the Harris supporters in this.

And then one that reflects a different reality that I don't want to say isn't real, but it's a lived experience that doesn't coincide with the facts on the ground, I guess, is the polite way of saying it.

But I give it to you, Schillacher.

So look, you brought up a couple different special interest groups, which are worth talking about.

Unions, the Sister Soldier moment that I think they should have had and that I've been talking about, and I get a decent amount of pushback, is that unions are now a failed construct.

And to continue to cater to 9% of the workforce or 3.5% of the population, because they do give a lot of money.

and quite frankly in this campaign they were threatening they were flirting with the other side i just don't think it's i don't think the juice is worth the squeeze now minimum wage needs to come up substantially and this falls into the special interest group there should be one union in my view in the u.s it should be the u.s federal government that pays people

raises minimum wage such that if you work 40 hours a week you're not in poverty it's pretty simple and that would be like 20 bucks in some states 25 in others and if the minimum wage had just kept pace with productivity or inflation it would be there yeah Because in my view, the majority of unions are disorganized, inefficient, and there's also a decent DNA of corruption.

The head of UAW,

it seems like a bright guy, serves his constituents well.

The former CEO or president of UAW is in prison, and the former CEO before him is also in prison.

So I just think they were stupid not to continue to pander.

to unions.

I'm a hammer ideological.

Everything I see is a nail in the sense that I genuinely believe everything came down to almost everything here came down to one thing, and that is a 30-year-old man or woman isn't doing as well as his or her parents were at the age of 30.

And that has disproportionately impacted young men.

And if you look at the age group that swung the most violently, it was young people who swung 11 points towards Trump versus 2020.

And then the second group that swung most violently was 45 to 64.

And the thing that kind of drove me a little bit nuts was Stephanie Ruhl, who I adore, had a guy on her program.

I forget his name.

He's a talented guy.

And he gave this very impassioned speech for, America doesn't want to face the hard reality that they're just not comfortable with the Browning of America and they weren't comfortable with a black president.

And quite frankly, I just don't think that's true.

That not only isn't accurate, but it continues to promote a trope.

that hurts us.

And that is Democrats continue to see everything through the lens of identity, specifically race, which is implicitly accusing the other side of bigotry.

And the other side will say, and what I believe with some credibility, that folks, you guys are the guys, you guys are the folks obsessed with race, not us.

Your thoughts?

Yeah, I think the racial realignment, especially with the Latino population, we should be specific that the only group where a majority went for Trump were Cubans.

So breaking it down, you know, is important.

Instead of talking about this as a monolith, there might have been 53%

of Venezuelans, but 66%, 67%, I think, of Cubans did,

which makes a lot of sense, kind of looking at people's past, where they came from and where they live.

But I think honestly, the answer to this question, and the Republicans are going to have work to do as well in 2028 when they don't have Trump running, Because the Republican brand itself is not a good one.

It's not as bad right now as the Democratic brand.

But we need to really get rid of all of the labels on this and the success stories that have come out of the Democratic side in this election, like Colorado, which is the only state that moved to the left in full.

And Jared Polis, the governor, gave an interview about it.

said, well, you know what I did?

I built affordable housing and I cut taxes and I balanced budgets and I told people, you know what, you're actually in charge of your family, not the government, right?

Like if you want your kids to play unsupervised on your cul-de-sac, that's none of my business.

And anyone who's narking on you, I don't really care, right?

Or Pat Ryan, the congressman from upstate New York, won, I think, by 13 points.

And he just ran on common sense.

And he's like, I campaigned with AOC when it made sense to campaign with AOC.

And I leaned into the moderate wing of the party when I needed to do that.

And I almost feel like we should become like a blind taste test election system in this country.

Like what Dan Osborne was doing in Nebraska, where the guy was getting within two points of a two-term sitting senator running as an independent, where he just said, this is who I am and this is what I believe in.

And you put that into whatever box you might need to, but like, just check my name and I'm going to deliver on these things.

Last week, I talked about that prison guard who was interviewed and said, I think the Democratic Party doesn't respect me.

They don't like me very much.

And there was a focus group over the weekend, CNN did, and a woman was asked to describe Trump and the GOP and Harris and the Democrats as well.

And she called the GOP crazy and the Democrats preachy.

And when they asked for her preference, she sounded broken having to say this.

But she said, Crazy doesn't look down on me.

Preachy does.

And

I think that all of these people people just took a flyer on the guy who, yes, is positioned as a successful businessman in the economy as a top concern.

So you think that that's going to work out.

But someone that they genuinely don't believe actually cares that much about them as an individual, like how they live, who they love, what they practice.

They're like, Donald Trump, he just exists.

Right.

And he doesn't align with anything.

He likes some Republicans.

He hates other Republicans.

Like he's not a party guy.

And you saw it like in in Nevada.

This was crazy.

So, Jackie Rose and the Democrat was able to hang on and she won her race.

There are 70,000 people who showed up and voted for Donald Trump and didn't bother with the bottom of the ballot.

Because

what do they care?

They're just voting for the guy who managed to convince us, like Kamala broke it.

Trump will fix it.

There's no party attached to that.

It's a one-man brand.

Okay, let's take a quick break.

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So I wonder if...

I don't think that, for example, he's going to get through these tariffs because something I keep thinking about is I think he's a lame duck president after about 90 days.

He's going to be a lame duck president.

And around economic issues, I think, and it's going to be such a close call.

And, you know, it's basically a divided government.

And everyone's like, well, they got a majority.

They'll do whatever they want.

I'm not as certain about that because I think, especially when it comes to tariffs, there's a lot of Republicans that understand economics.

And I think they'll decide it would win in their district to talk about a populist argument of this is nothing but a tax increase, and I'm not down with this.

And he doesn't have the same power to ruin careers, especially post-2026.

You really had to kiss the ring here because people, Republicans saw accurately, quite frankly, that he could ruin their careers.

I think he's not going to have nearly

the power.

The question, one question I would have for you is,

as both of us are Jews, do you think that her stance on Israel-Gaza played a role?

Do you think she should have taken a more supportive position on Israel?

People including Jackie Rosen, Elisa Slotkin, and Josh Stein all outperformed her.

Do you think she should have been more

assertive around support of Israel or more supportive around her support of Palestinians?

This is where if we're doing the blame game, I actually have some shade that I would like to throw at the Biden camp because now all of this quote-unquote internal polling that they had is leaking out.

And they knew that we were losing Muslim voters that like Dearborn could have gone for Trump before October 7th, right?

Like that this isn't something that just popped up.

And when you look at a majority Muslim district like that, that ends up going for Donald Trump, who has said things like, I'm going to turn Gaza into a parking lot, you have to think that that's bigger than what one person.

Even if they are running for president is saying at their campaign speeches, right?

Like that, that is something that was almost preordained in a different kind of way.

But yeah, I think that she's probably looking at it now and thinking we

like her and Biden should have been tougher out of the gate about the college campus protests.

I think that's one of these notches in the disorder belt, as it were, where people just feel like, what is going on in this country, right?

That there are kids being blocked from going to the cafeteria or to their libraries or being beaten up in the worst case scenario.

And you look at these other open Zionists that outperformed her.

I mean, Jackie Rosen,

I mean, she was the president of her synagogue, which is probably the hardest job you could possibly have if you know Jews.

I can't even imagine.

No, like the Senate is nothing, right?

Dealing with those characters.

And all the high-profile Jews were just fine and they never waffled on this.

Of course, they supported the First Amendment, but they were 24 hours a day, bring them home.

We support a two-state solution and they did really well.

And we should note that Jewish voters came out for Kamala.

So 71%, I think, is the tally as of now.

So we'll see where it shakes out.

But she's going to get her.

She's a worse of 2020.

It's about the same.

He got like 70%.

So there was no mass exodus.

And I think that that is, a lot of that is driven by Jewish women, which were the second most supportive group for her behind black women.

But

American Judaism

is now intertwined with a lot of general liberal values, right?

Like it's not just about what do you think is going to happen in the Middle East in the next four years.

It has to do with supporting education, a woman's right to choose, that people have a better quality of life, cutting taxes for middle-class people, raising taxes on those that can afford it.

I mean, that's all part of, as a Jew, myself, that's part of my identity.

And people voted accordingly.

I think they also saw Trump as someone that talks out of both sides of their mouth, right?

And that today he sounds really good for us, but what does he sound like tomorrow?

And what will he do to our life at home here in the U.S.

that's going to make it so whatever's offset by what's happening in Israel isn't necessarily worth it?

So yeah, I think she could have leaned into that more.

I don't know if it would have.

made up the difference, the, you know, 50,000 votes, 60, 70, I think in Pennsylvania.

But I would have liked it.

I mean, we talked about this as a moral issue of our time, right?

Almost akin to being pro-life and saying, if we end up losing elections because of this, because of our pro-life stance, so be it, because it's that important.

And supporting Israel at this moment, I think, is a bit of a pro-life stance.

And that doesn't mean disregarding the Palestinians who have needlessly passed away and the children.

It's horrific.

But I would have liked that.

What about you?

I think voters would rather disagree with you on an issue as long as you seem resolute.

Yeah.

And that is to be, in my view, to be supportive of Israel, full-throated support of Israel.

And this is the problem.

They were.

Biden and Harris actually were more supportive of Israel.

Anytime anyone gives, gave Biden shit for Israel, I'm like, who's been more supportive?

Who else sent two carrier strike forces to the Mediterranean to tell Iran to sit the fuck down?

Who else did that?

But

they couldn't get credit for it because they kept conditioning everything with, I don't like the way they're prosecuting the war.

And if you look at Reagan, I think of him, people would read his issues and where he stood, and the majority of Americans disagreed with him, but the majority of Americans voted for him because he seemed very resolute.

And the ultimate example of that was Bush W never seemed to waver over what is arguably the greatest geopolitical catastrophe since our entry into a war in South Vietnam or in the Southeast Asia, Vietnam.

He seemed very resolute about Iraq, probably the stupidest war we've ever fought.

Americans want someone who's resolute.

So I believe supporting Israel would have been the best move.

Quite frankly, the second best move probably would have been going all in and saying, we need a ceasefire now.

We are putting huge pressure on them.

This is not humanitarian, you know, really gone, been very pro-Palestinian.

The worst thing they could have done is what they did.

And that is they came across as mealy-mouthed.

They came across as, yeah, but.

And I just think that made them look weak.

And what's interesting is the stuff I've seen, the exit polling I've seen around Muslim Americans, a surprising number of them in Michigan went Trump.

And the interview I saw, the guy said, I'd rather be stabbed in the face than stabbed in the back.

And then the other point that you, I don't know, that you inspired.

I love Maureen Dowd.

And every time I mention her name, I can't get over the number, the amount of hate mail I get.

I think she's such a talented woman.

And she's actually quite lovely personally.

Yeah.

She is incredibly talented, but the Maureen Dowed anger goes back to the 90s and what she wrote about Hillary.

But yeah.

She's polarizing.

There's no doubt about it.

But

I love her writing.

And she wrote this interesting article basically saying woke is broke.

And it wasn't her article, but there was a comment in there that I thought was so

incredibly intelligent.

I wish I had the person's name.

But they basically said,

this was a vote against hypocrisy.

And that is, Democrats believe in free speech until a center-right conservative person shows up on campus.

They believe in the rule of law until people start brazenly and openly stealing from stores in Democratic cities or trespassing on campuses.

They believe in COVID lockdowns until there's a Black Lives Matter march.

They believe in science until

someone born with a penis wants to play in women's sports.

You want to talk about a layup for the Republican Party

to let people born with a penis

have testosterone flow over their bone structure and muscle structure and then compete in women's sports?

I mean, have we gone fucking insane?

And then,

I mean, there was just so many kind of layups.

Anyways, this point was saying, we just come across as

hypocrites.

And it really struck me.

I thought, wow, that was a really prescient point that this individual was making.

But I don't think that it was that she lost Jews.

I think she lost a lot of voters because she came across as trying to dance between the raindrops.

And I hate to say it, but a guy who says, turn the place into a parking lot.

Yeah, you go, that's not a very thoughtful position.

But I appreciate his balls and his willingness to say, this is how I feel.

I'm not morally struggling with this.

I have moral clarity on it.

And I'm not saying that's the way people should vote.

There's a nuanced view here.

This is a complicated situation,

but I think that even more Muslim Americans than anticipated

people want a president who's resolute, not necessarily a president who is right.

Well, that speaks to this.

feeling that's been communicated across all minority groups, which is the belief that actually everybody is racist, That black voters are saying, Latino voters are saying, it's not as if we think Democrats aren't racist.

It's just packaged up instead of told to our face.

Like you said, the stab in the front versus stab in the back.

And one thing that I've been thinking about a lot is this pervasive feeling of betrayal that core Democratic voters

have been feeling and it's been pent up for years going back to COVID policy.

Like you can't be with your loved ones as they're dying.

Your kids can't be in school.

We need to shut everything down.

Inflation is transitory.

Oh, the border isn't open.

Oh, Joe Biden is fine until he's not fine.

And I feel part of the problem for sure, because I definitely sat on TV saying like, he can do this job.

And I think generally he could with the support of his cabinet.

Once the debate happens, it was obviously the right thing for him to not be running anymore.

But taken together with how people were feeling that we were repeatedly asking them to not believe their lying eyes, right?

What they had seen on the subway to the grocery store.

Sarah Longwell from the Bulwark has this great line.

She was being interviewed and said over and over in focus groups, people didn't know what authoritarian meant, but they could tell you exactly how much their eggs cost, right?

Like the disconnect between the messaging on that.

But over the weekend, it leaked out that, you know, this wasn't exactly Nancy Pelosi and Obama's plan, that they wanted Biden out and there was supposed to be a primary.

And as kind of like an FU to them, Biden endorsed Kamala

and sent us on this journey.

And I think NetNet, you know, she did run as good of a campaign, I guess, as.

as was possible, considering the timeframe and also certain issues that she had, like not being able to answer questions directly, like on the view, which James Carville says it's the re, you know, the moment this ended, essentially when Sonny Hostin was like, how will you be different than Biden?

She couldn't do it.

Let's take a quick break.

When we come back, we'll talk about how Trump's cabinet is taking shape.

Stay with us.

Welcome back.

Trump's transition efforts are in full swing at his Mar-a-Lago residence.

He made his first major appointment selecting Susie Wiles as his White House chief of staff, making her the first woman in history to hold this position.

Trump also announced that Tom Homan will oversee the nation's borders and offered Rep.

Elise Stefanik the role of U.S.

Ambassador to the U.N.

He's expected to announce Stephen Miller as Deputy Chief of Staff for Policy, and he's ruled out cabinet positions from Mike Pompeo and Nikki Haley, who held top foreign policy roles in his previous administration.

What are your thoughts on his pick so far?

Well, I think it's cool that Susie Wiles is the first female chief of staff in American history.

I'm not one who says that she deserves to be on the cover of Vogue just because that's what the Democratic version would get of this, but I do think that moves towards parity should be celebrated.

And Susie Wiles did an incredible job, right?

She got someone like Donald Trump, who had high unfavorables, who people think is a misogynist and a racist and all of these things, elected president.

So hats off to you, Susie.

And I think that she'll run a tight ship.

And it feels like there will be order, even if it's an order that I do not enjoy.

Nikki Haley, you know, was it worth it?

Right.

Whatever you just went through over the last year and a half or two years to be publicly embarrassed once again with the first thing he does, basically saying, you're not going to get anywhere near my new house or my administration is embarrassing.

And Mike Pompeo, people had kind of normie Republicans had hoped that he would play a big role in this administration because

he sees the world as kind of a traditional neocon, I guess, who has understood the MAGA vibe, but very pro-Ukraine, you know, very pro-Israel.

You know, thinking about Secretary of State, will that end up being a Rick Rinnell or Tennessee Senator Bill Hagerty, who came out of Bush World, but is very MAGA.

He was Trump's ambassador to Japan, but he's very pro-Ukraine, which is good.

That was top line.

But Stefanic to the UN is interesting to me because she, one of her big big issues is that if the UN continues to be so anti-Semitic, maybe we shouldn't be there at all.

And I feel like that's probably one of the reasons that he put her in that role.

Yeah, that definitely sparks are going to fly at the UN.

And I can't figure out, I'm two minds around the UN.

And that is it's so important and such took so much effort to get everyone together.

And I think it's important that people get together and talk.

Even, but what I've seen come out of the UN recently for me has been just such blatant anti-Semitism.

I think, why are we participating and or funding this place or or not funding it, depending on who you're speaking to?

She's an interesting one.

I feel as if his picks are sort of

more performative than anything because if I know Trump, 90% of them will be gone within 18 months.

I mean he just He just churns through people like there's no tomorrow.

I don't I know nothing about his chief of staff.

She's probably in terms of a ratio to people who are important in history, who are the least well-known, she's right up there right now.

Nobody knows who she is.

And it sounds to me like she just schooled the Democratic apparatus on how to run a campaign.

And

people said, oh, they weren't disciplined or whatever.

My sense is he was a lot more disciplined this time.

And even the decision not to debate again, well, we were outraged by it.

The decision not to have to put that many resources around a ground game.

Oh, aren't they idiots?

Well, no, it ends up she was a lot smarter than we were.

So it'll be, I'll be very curious, you know, what happens there.

I also heard rumblings that it might be Steve Mnuchin for Treasury Secretary.

Oh, I didn't, I hadn't heard that.

If he comes back yet, that would feel orderly to me.

Yeah.

And I think people, generally speaking, think pretty well of him.

The Tom Holman thing, though, we got to double-click on that, or whatever the right term is.

It's interesting to me.

So, Tom Holman, who was ahead of ICE, has some of the most anti-immigrant views of anyone I have listened to give interviews.

And he was made border czar.

They didn't try to get him to be Homeland Security because that requires confirmation.

And that right away sent up the bat signal, right?

That this is a workaround to get the guy in who talks about the deportation force all the time.

And if you haven't seen...

Tom Holman, who by the way is associated with the Heritage Foundation and Project 2025, check out his 60 Minutes interview where he's being asked about family separation, which is usually something that people don't want to happen, right?

And this is also fueling a lot of the anger within Latino families.

You see a lot of content online of young women who are mad at their brothers and mothers mad at their sons and their husbands in some cases saying, you just voted to deport X member of our family, mother, aunt, uncle, whatever it is.

But Tom Homan is asked about family separation.

And he said, of course, I'm not for family separation.

And the interviewer, I forget who it was, says, well, then what's the plan?

And he said, they can all go.

So

you are now talking about a landscape in which people who are naturalized American citizens

may be forced out of the country.

with their family members.

And of course, the talking point today is we're starting with the bad guys, right?

The bad ombres.

It will be the criminals, you know, the people who are violating our laws, not the original sin of crossing the border, but actually have committed a crime here.

But that was what they said in 2016 as well.

And that is not how it turned out.

It just moved into deporting people who are here illegally writ large.

And I'm very concerned about Tom Hohmann.

Do you think, and granted, I don't wanna

I don't wanna in any way diminish the prospect that he'll do what he actually says he's gonna do.

But when you talk about the logistics here, potentially the blow to the economy, the costs, the idea that anything that reeks of putting people in any ring-fenced geographic area for deportation is going to feel eerily similar to a concentration camp or take us back to at least at a minimum the very dark spot stain in our history.

And that was when we interned Japanese Americans who were good citizens.

Yeah.

And his lack of focus, especially on things that are this logistically complicated.

do you think it might not just be easier for him to make it even more difficult to get into the country, maybe do away with asylum or reform the asylum system, as opposed to actually knocking on doors and taking Grandma Luiso away, whose kids are citizens here?

And again,

I don't want to in any way reduce the threat of him doing,

I didn't think the Republicans would actually ever go after Roe.

And my podcast co-host, Kara, said, yeah, they will.

These, these people are, you know, are that.

So I'm not suggesting we don't take what he says seriously.

I just wonder if logistically it's so complicated, so expensive, so ugly that it might not actually happen.

You think this guy, Homan, will actually execute a plan that involves, you know,

I mean,

convicted felons or whatever who get deported back to their home country, I would imagine the majority of Americans aren't worried about that or going to rise up around it.

But when the mother of their, you know, their home health worker who has kids here all of a sudden gets a knock at the door and is told to report to a center somewhere outside of Philadelphia, I don't know.

That could, to me, that could get very scary very fast.

What are your thoughts?

Yeah, well, that.

That really shakes the foundation of what the country is about, right?

Which I don't think protecting someone who committed a crime here is.

And that's why you did get broad-based support for Trump in this.

And it was interesting looking at the Fox News voter analysis, which is our huge poll.

We talked to like 120,000 people about this.

Still, a majority of people wanted to find a pathway to citizenship for those who are here and are working and are valuable members of society.

That's actually how Americans feel about this.

But one of.

if not the smartest thing that Republicans ever did about the border was bussing migrants to cities like mine and making this a national problem and not just a localized problem along the border.

And, you know, Eric Adams has already, you know, first thing, maybe he wants a pardon when that, when that comes, but, you know, immediately congratulating Trump and saying that the debit card program for people who are here undocumented is going away right away.

And there have been across a number of different issue areas, you see an immediate impact of the Trump effect.

Like Qatar has said, Hamas has to get out of here.

Like you have 20, 20 minutes to get out of here, or whatever the amount of time is.

Under pressure from Biden.

I understand that, but it came right after the election.

And that will be to your point about people are not following the complicated story.

They're not following the diplomacy of it.

They're looking at who said a thing and then it had a direct reaction.

And Donald Trump said a thing and it had a direct reaction.

And that's how I think, honestly, a presidency that was pretty mediocre, his,

ends up being lionized in a lot of people's eyes because he is a person that scares the shit out of so many people because he is so frantic and frenzied.

I mean, he was being interviewed by the Wall Street Journal editorial board and they asked him about his foreign policy.

I said, how are you going to pull this off?

And he said, well, people know that I'm crazy.

That's things that like Anna Saad says, right?

Or Kim Jong-un.

And I think that's what people even voting for him thought.

They thought, this guy is crazy.

And so he might be able to pull this off, crazy versus preachy.

So

I just can't believe we miss the boat on dealing with immigration to this level, that we're having a conversation now about whether Homan and his deportation force will be able to pull this.

stuff off.

I mean, if we had just acknowledged a real problem and talked to people like normal human beings and accepted a little bit of blame even.

You don't need to take the whole shebang, but just say, I understand that this is a problem.

There's a border town majority Latino, 97% support for Trump.

And they were talking about it on the view.

Alyssa Farr Griffin says, why do you think that happened?

And Sonny Hostin says, racism.

And she goes, it's the border.

This is not racism.

It's not misogyny.

We fall absolutely into their

talking point when our go-to is to immediately accuse the other side side of being racists and misogynists.

It's just, it is the worst thing we can do.

The Democratic Party has decided that they're kind of the self-appointed cop for social justice, and no one appointed them.

I'm curious, what do you think of the idea?

I'm trying to think of how we move forward.

What do you think of the idea of the U.S.

being a platform?

And it really is for two things.

First and foremost, to defend Americans, defend our shores, but two, to provide economic security for Americans and their families.

And that's not to say we shouldn't have laws around civil rights and equality, and there's still important issues we need to discuss, but to move back, the Democratic Party should embrace an active foreign policy, stick to that.

I think that's the right idea, but really try and embrace this notion that we are going to be the party that provides more economic opportunity for young people and be the adults in the room, talk about the deficit, talk about vocational programming, talk about national service, talk about a tax policy that doesn't run the credit card of our younger people to pull prosperity forward for older people who now control 40%

of government spending, which is not a real investment.

It's true spending.

It's not in things like R ⁇ D or education.

How do you think the Democratic Party realigns in terms of a message moving forward?

Well, I would love that because the economy is the grounding of everything, of every issue that we talk about.

And there is very little way for people to feel good about their lives if they don't feel like their economic future and the economic future of those that they care about is in good hands or is going to see brighter days.

And I think that that's great.

That is, you know, at core of what Bernie Sanders has been saying forever, but said in that little manifesto that he put out after the loss.

I think he's always too quick to pick on the party apparatus and that people haven't been buying what Bernie is selling for a long time.

And he always kind of skips past that, at least on a national level.

But I think, yeah, if we had an easy to understand slogan like,

we'll make you richer,

that would be great.

Yeah.

You know what I love?

I don't know if you've heard about this, but Portugal, I think this is a great idea.

Portugal is becoming sort of, it's done really well on the whole, but they recognized that they're essentially becoming a place for rich expats, hedge fund managers that want to avoid taxes, and tourism and seniors because they have very generous social service programs.

I think 60% of employment there is civil servants.

And anyone who's really talented and young has one thing in common.

They leave.

They go to school in another country and they don't come back.

So they have announced a, I think, I don't know how long it's going to last, but anyone between the ages of 20 and 30, zero taxes.

Amazing.

What do you think think of that idea?

Because it wouldn't cost that much because people 20 to 30 don't make that much money.

But say we need to level up young people,

read the tea leaves in this election, no taxes, no federal income taxes between the ages of 20 and 30.

I think it's great.

I think, I mean, lowering also the barriers to getting decent jobs.

Like this was actually one of the impacts of Josh Shapiro on Kamala because he has a policy in Pennsylvania that you don't need a college degree to get a government job, which you shouldn't need.

There are all sorts of people that are very qualified for those things.

So, yeah, thinking outside the box about how to get people to stay and to be happy should definitely be a priority.

But I also think, and it's connected to this, like, how do you make people love their home again, love their country again?

Like, I went abroad for school and I wanted to come home because I love where I'm from and I love the people

in my orbit that made growing up fantastic, that had great impact on me.

And that's part of the issue.

It's a wonderful thing about the European Union.

And I wish that the UK was obviously still part of it.

But with the mobility options that you could just go off and go to school in Germany or you could go to school in France or whatever, they had to work harder to make sure that people come back and invest in where they're from.

And there's...

There are so many people, especially young people, who just, they don't get how great America is.

Like Bill Gates always talks about this.

Like, what are you guys talking about?

That this isn't the greatest nation in the world that has delivered the best results at home and abroad.

And that kind of project, reinvigorating the American dream, I think could be a great piece of what the Democrats

build going forward and to hopefully help them win elections, but just to make us feel better about where we're from and what we're all about.

So we're still watching the final uncalled legislative races to see if Republicans will retain control of the House of Representatives, which would, if that happens, complete an electoral sweep.

What's going on?

How does it look to you?

Less sunny than it did, which is kind of the theme for this election.

I came in, you know, big smiles.

Oh, what a beautiful sunny day and left depressed.

It would take a bit of an electoral miracle for us to be able to hold their much closer.

And for the races that are outstanding, you need stuff like, you know, needs to win 73% of the outstanding ballots and things like that.

Not completely impossible, but very unlikely.

I'm kind of taking solace in the fact that when they had control of all three branches of government, when Trump first came in, that they only got tax cuts passed and didn't get anything else done.

They, I mean, they voted to reveal Obamacare millions of times, but that never happened.

So

I think it'll be much of the same.

And to your, that's to your lame duck point, right?

That

the hope is that he can't actually accomplish all that much.

And this Tom Holman thing, appointing people for non-confirmable spots, I think is going to be his approach.

That's how RFK Jr.

will get in.

That's how Elon Musk gets in.

That's how Tom Holman gets in.

So before we wrap up here, how do you think the media, as a member of the media, should approach covering Trump this time around?

Connor Friedesdorf made the case in the Atlantic that the media should treat him like a normal president, especially since an opposition that claims to defend democracy can't just ignore the legitimacy of someone who's won so clearly.

Jess, what's your take on that?

I think that's generally right.

I think outrage and meltdown has failed us and

that we have also

revealed ourselves to actually not fear him that much.

My colleagues on the five always say to me, well, what are people going to do?

Now you've called him Hitler and you have to have tea and crumpets with him because you need to show him around the office and Biden.

I'm You're talking about vice president Banser.

Well, he repented earlier than we did.

But I think that people stopped believing us

that he was fascist, that he was authoritarian.

And they just said, well, he's going to fix the economy or I'm going to be better off than I was before.

So yeah, I would like to treat him.

normally, which doesn't mean not covering the things that he is doing,

but it cannot be a daily meltdown.

The public will not have it.

And I think that links to the way that they are consuming information.

Like I was took a step back and I thought, oh, the liberal media is so powerful.

We have all these ways to reach people.

But then you look at the kind of content at least younger people are taking in with these podcasts.

Most of the time when they end up getting a political message, it's not because they listen to a political podcast.

It's because they listen to a wellness podcast that started talking about something RFK Jr.

likes.

I mean, Joe Rogan is not a political podcaster.

And

until we can get a good foothold in that kind of space, I think that we have lost that battle.

And then if the mainstream media, whatever that means these days, is only saying that this is, we haven't seen this since the 1930s, we're never going to win an election again.

What do you think?

Yeah, I think that's, that feels right.

But just, I feel the need to, I feel we are literally like Debbie Downer and like disaster Debbie here.

I do want to highlight that there was actually several historic victories amongst LGBTQ candidates this election,

including the first transgender candidate elected to Congress, a black gay man elected to the Georgia legislature.

There were some bright spots here, and I think it's important to keep in mind.

I'm also already, I'm wondering if this will be really healthy for the Democratic Party to get back to the good work of just helping being, instead of trying to be righteous all the time, be effective.

Something I've struggled with my whole career is the difference between being right and being effective, and focus on things like the economy and struggling young people.

And that I'd like to think this is just setting us up.

Americans like reversion to the mean.

They like a balance.

And in a weird way, I'd like to see Republicans get control of the House because I think it's more symbolic than effective.

I think he'll be a lame duck president.

I think a lot of Republicans will find their backbone in terms of not just being a blank check for him.

That might be naive.

And that this is going to set up, if we get our act and our messaging together, I think it sets up incredibly well for 2026, which will start getting pelted with ads in about, I don't know, six or eight.

I think it happened while we were recording.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's

already happening.

All right, Joe.

You can ultimate positive point.

And you made fun of me at the start of the podcast.

Yeah.

We didn't lose by that much.

There you go.

All right.

Defined by that much, white woman.

What do you

that much?

Anyways, that's all for this episode.

Thank you for listening to Raging Moderates.

Our producers are Caroline Chagren and David Toledo.

Our technical director is Drew Burroughs.

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