Sawbones Classic: Nose Blowing

Speaker 1 Sawbones is a show about medical history, and nothing the hosts say should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's for fun.

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Speaker 1 We came across a pharmacy with its windows blasted out.

Speaker 1 We saw through the broken glass and had ourselves a lucky run. The medicines, the medicines, the escalat macabre

Speaker 1 Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sawbones, a marital tour of misguided medicine. I'm your co-host, Justin McElroy.

Speaker 2 And I'm Sidney McElroy.

Speaker 1 I'm so excited about this old sip because you seem punchy. I am punchy because when you found this topic, I was sitting next to you

Speaker 1 doing some business of my own, some work business.

Speaker 2 You were playing a game.

Speaker 1 That is a part of my job. yes that's true sydney uh i'm a very fortunate man but i heard you go no

Speaker 1 like sometimes i you make this noise like oh i'm gonna have to do this episode but i don't want to do this episode but i think i have to and that is certainly the noise that i heard you uh exclaim today i have no idea what that is in reference to but i feel uh pretty confident that that was your attitude.

Speaker 2 That is definitely the attitude I had,

Speaker 2 especially this week. This topic, in reference to what I've been experiencing this past week, it felt targeted.

Speaker 2 When I thank the listeners who sent in this topic recommendation, I'm going to try not to say it in like a kind of like

Speaker 2 sarcastic way.

Speaker 2 Because what I'm saying is, thank you, Will and Kiana, for this topic recommendation. But what I mean is, thanks, Will and Kiana.

Speaker 1 Whoa.

Speaker 2 Thanks.

Speaker 1 Thanks.

Speaker 2 For making me research this and learn that, as you can tell, as you can probably hear, I have been struggling with a an upper respiratory infection

Speaker 1 which uh started out as all of us had experienced some sort of viral infection i suppose i mean i it wasn't it was some non-covet that's all we know now right we test for covet it's not covet then what do we cancel a signing uh at at uh books a million here in barbersville and listen signing aren't ain't that hard so if it had been if it hadn't been really really bad i wouldn't have done it but oofa doofa.

Speaker 1 Like, we took a lot of tests, like a lot of COVID.

Speaker 1 Right, because it felt so much like COVID.

Speaker 2 Well, and it went through the whole family, all of us. And then finally, I was the last, the last one standing to fall to the illness.
Yeah. On the day I turned 40 is when my symptoms started.

Speaker 2 The day, isn't that cruel?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it is cruel. Isn't that cruel?

Speaker 2 But what happened to me is, and this may happen to you sometimes when you're ill, my original viral illness was running its course i was getting better yes and then i got worse oh and i developed a secondary bacterial infection oh as one may do and i am particularly prone to when it comes to sinus infections i've seen sinusite cynic's a tough tough cookie i've seen these things lay her out it is brutal if you've had a real deal sinus infection And I don't just mean like you're sniffly.

Speaker 2 You know what I'm talking about if you've experienced this. The pain in your face and your ears and your teeth, your jaw.
I mean, it's all up in there, honey.

Speaker 2 It's like your whole head's going to explode. It's rough.
That is what I've been experiencing. I am thankfully now receiving proper treatment.

Speaker 2 I did not treat myself. No.
I reached out to my family doctor. There's a little plug for family doctors out there.
And she took good care of me and I am getting better.

Speaker 2 But what I've been doing a lot of this week.

Speaker 2 or longer, actually longer than a week, is blowing my nose.

Speaker 1 Not sustained.

Speaker 2 Not the entire entire time. Yeah.
No, like intermittently blowing my nose. And I think that we all take for granted this idea that it's, that's good.

Speaker 1 Yep. Right.
Yep.

Speaker 2 Not only do we, do we blow our noses when that is necessary, we teach our kids to. This has been an ongoing battle with us recently, teaching our, because we've all passed this thing around.

Speaker 1 And they're bad at it. Yeah.
Like, I didn't think you could be bad at it, but they're like bad at it. Like, Charlie at first is like...

Speaker 2 Now, don't embarrass her.

Speaker 1 When she was younger, I'm saying as a young child, she would hold the tissue or what have you, like, two inches from her face and blow like it was, like, a net.

Speaker 1 And it's like, no, honey, we're not, it's not like that. That's not the way to approach.

Speaker 2 Now, here's what I'm going to, I'm going to throw at you, Justin.

Speaker 1 Not one of the tissues. No.

Speaker 2 No, although there is a pile of your tissues on this table, which we're going to talk about later.

Speaker 1 My tissues? No, ma'am. Those are not my tissues.

Speaker 2 They're the little teeny ones when you get a nosebleed. I know what's happening.
Oh.

Speaker 2 Anyway, I am going to throw this idea at you. I think Charlie is probably technically better at blowing her nose than we are.
No kidding. We've been doing it wrong.

Speaker 2 And I'm going to call into question the idea that we should do it at all.

Speaker 1 Oh, come on. I know.
Sydney, can we just have one thing?

Speaker 2 I know. Now, I can't sit here and tell you the history of nose blowing.
I don't.

Speaker 2 There may be a cultural historian who could document such practices. I can't.
That is beyond my

Speaker 2 particular, my particular research capabilities. I obviously the idea of clearing your nose when it feels stuffy is, is very ingrained in us.

Speaker 2 And there's a whole etiquette system developed around it, right? It's been around so long that we know you shouldn't blow your nose at the table.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Or if you do blow your nose at the table, you should at least turn around,

Speaker 2 which the fact that that has to be in a book somewhere is kind of disturbing to me. Yeah.
Like, don't blow your nose directly over the food.

Speaker 1 How would you turn around? Like you sit backwards on your chair like a coach talking to young folks and then blow your nose.

Speaker 2 Does your body not rotate?

Speaker 1 It does. It just needs to turn around.

Speaker 2 Just turn around or excuse yourself.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 2 like I said, I can't cover the complete history of when did the first human say, Hey, wait, I could blast this stuff clean out.

Speaker 1 Hey, I find if I plug one of the holes, I i could really blaze i can really

Speaker 1 that had that idea which i had been there for like that cultural moment it went in the uh early man when when he was like hey if i plug this it up look i can really blast it out this is a new thing i didn't call it the derrick it's a new move i just came up with i mean if if i'm just i'm gonna talk a little bit about handkerchiefs and Kleenex as a way of sort of indicating our relationship with nose blowing.

Speaker 2 Okay. That's that's sort of my conduit that I'm using because I can't tell you when we first started blowing our noses.
So I'm going to talk about handkerchiefs.

Speaker 2 But I think it is fair to say that since, I mean, colds and stuffiness, allergies, all the various reasons why your nose might need, you might feel that it needs to be blown date back to as long as there've been people.

Speaker 2 There probably were. That was probably what happened first, right? People just sort of like

Speaker 2 snorted it right out there.

Speaker 1 like right there blazed it right out maybe put a hand up maybe not who knows not snorted snorted is inward, I feel like. Snort.

Speaker 2 Well, then what is the word for blowing it out?

Speaker 1 See, that's why I've been struggling here. I think I said blaze or blast.
That's not accurate. Blow? That's the word.
It's blow. Blow.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And we can look back to ancient history for indications that we used to carry something around

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 use like

Speaker 2 an all-purpose utilitarian cloth that you may have on your person

Speaker 2 for whatever you needed. And certainly these pieces of cloth would probably have been used for,

Speaker 2 I don't know, gently dabbing sweat from your brow as well, I suppose.

Speaker 2 And you can find depictions of this as far back as like a thousand BCE in the Chao dynasty.

Speaker 2 There are depictions of figures holding like pieces of decorative cloth that you would just carry on your person.

Speaker 2 So we can kind of like, if we look back to why would someone just carry around a piece of cloth all the time?

Speaker 1 Even intergalactically, it's well established that everyone has a towel. I think Ford Prefret effect drops out on Arthur Dent, that the most useful thing you can have is a towel.

Speaker 1 And what is a handkerchief except a small towel?

Speaker 2 Well, that's true, Justin. What are you referencing?

Speaker 1 A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Ah, okay.
Okay.

Speaker 2 A historical document. A historical document.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 So, as I said, these were multi-purpose. These were also often used to put on your head.
to shield you from the sun. And we're going to get into that with our modern concept of a handkerchief.

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 2 The Greeks and Romans would have carried around a small piece of cloth, especially for like if you, the sort of image of like at a sporting or athletic event, like waving a white cloth, that would have been very common.

Speaker 2 But the idea of a kerchief, and when I say kerchief, I mean a piece of cloth that covers your head,

Speaker 2 right?

Speaker 2 Which comes from like the French kerchief.

Speaker 1 I just got it.

Speaker 2 Did you just get that? Yeah,

Speaker 1 I had no idea.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 okay, and kerchief is from the French for like head and covering,

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 yeah, so that's what led to the widespread use of the kerchief obviously predates the hand kerchief, yeah.

Speaker 2 Although, again, people have probably been carrying around dirty rags for bodily functions for a long time.

Speaker 1 People would carry a human rag that I have to have for all the various secretions.

Speaker 2 It is so, I like this kind of thing because this, I mean, this is medically adjacent, right? The history of a handkerchief, but it is so human to say, I'm going to carry around.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's what it is. It's my human rag for my bodily secretions.
It's so grody when you put it that way, but like the way you think about it too much.

Speaker 1 You can't, because when you start thinking about bathrooms like that, like

Speaker 1 how

Speaker 1 absolutely wild it is that we're like, well, it's a normal thing being a human. One little like quirk that we have is that every once in a while we have to go to a hole to put

Speaker 1 some of the stuff we've stored up into the hole.

Speaker 2 To sort of dangle our bottom over it.

Speaker 1 We put the bottom over the hole and some of the human goo comes out. And it's, you don't need, I know it's going to seem like you need it.

Speaker 1 You don't. Trust me.
It's just completely fine.

Speaker 2 I like, though, that we have created, I mean, much the same way that you and I have themed bathrooms in our house.

Speaker 2 We have created a sort of fun playfulness around

Speaker 2 this very basic elimination function.

Speaker 1 This is our Twin Peaks bathroom.

Speaker 1 This is our

Speaker 2 TARDIS, but it's actually the bathroom.

Speaker 1 It's a TARDIS, but it's actually, you poop on the inside.

Speaker 2 So anyway, people would carry a kerchief in their pocket. Originally.

Speaker 1 The TARDIS bathroom is actually smaller than you expect it to be. Like you get in the TARDIS, it's like, whoa.
And then you see a huge door to the bathroom and you open it. It's very small.

Speaker 1 You have to crouch down. It's a very tiny, like half-bath.

Speaker 2 Well, it is a half-bath. I will say it's like a normal size door.
You say like a huge door?

Speaker 1 No, in the TARDIS. It's just like a real.

Speaker 1 I'm saying

Speaker 1 the bathroom on the real TARDIS.

Speaker 2 Oh, not our TARDIS bathroom. It's a huge door.

Speaker 1 And then you open it and it goes into a very small bathroom. It's like a.
Does the doctor go to the bathroom? Can't.

Speaker 2 Can't.

Speaker 2 Okay. So people would carry a kerchief in their pocket because you would need it to cover your head periodically.

Speaker 2 And it began to become like a fashionable thing

Speaker 2 to have a kerchief for different reasons.

Speaker 2 And initially it was, it's dated back to royalty were the first to like, instead of just having something that you just sort of again, very utilitarian tucked in your pocket to have in case you needed it, to have something lovely that you would have on your person where you could see it, you know, that others could view it too, and that you would use for all kinds of things.

Speaker 2 And it is at that point that you start hearing people refer to them not just as kerchiefs, but hand kerchiefs or handkerchiefs.

Speaker 2 And then they start to take on different meanings at this point. So you start to see the idea of a handkerchief being a token of affection, you know, something that you could give to a lover,

Speaker 2 something that could be beautiful, that could have embroidery on it with your initials or with some sort of message. They could be used to show your social status.

Speaker 2 You know, again, they were associated with royalty early early on. So you can see, we've talked about this before.

Speaker 2 You know, if a king does something, it becomes popular, even if that's like getting a fistula.

Speaker 1 Remember? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, even getting a rectal fistula is something that you could, that could catch on.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And be all the rest.
They're very trendy for a little bit.

Speaker 2 And especially if they were ornate or embellished in some way.

Speaker 2 It's like a lot of things. We all need to carry this.
I'm going to make mine prettier. Yes.
To show how fancy I am.

Speaker 2 And as handkerchiefs caught on, it really became popular

Speaker 2 throughout all this time period. We're talking about the Middle Ages where, you know, we write about like ladies giving gentlemen their handkerchiefs and all these kinds of things.

Speaker 2 And, you know, they play big roles in things like Othello. A handkerchief is an important symbol Shakespeare writes about.
But it's not until the industrial age that you see everybody everywhere.

Speaker 2 needs a handkerchief and they really start taking off. And the reason is because we start to have these kind of more crowded urban areas.
Pollution is a bigger problem.

Speaker 2 And we are aware enough that there's something about the air that is different that makes us think we need something to occasionally cover our face or blow out that city crud. Ah, yes.

Speaker 2 You know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 1 That's why I moved out here to the hills, away from the city. That city air got to me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, don't

Speaker 2 say too much because we do live in the chemical valley. Okay,

Speaker 1 But still,

Speaker 1 they're not in the air. It's in the water and

Speaker 1 water and

Speaker 2 listen.

Speaker 2 Some in the air. Don't blame it all on cities.

Speaker 2 Us out here, we're pretty good at polluting the air, too.

Speaker 2 We all find our own way.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 and they ranged. At this point, you kind of see like this variety of different handkerchiefs for different purposes and different

Speaker 1 the code. We all know about the hanky code.

Speaker 2 It's the code. What's the hanky code?

Speaker 1 I thought you were talking around the Hanky, just avoiding the.

Speaker 2 Oh, you mean like flagging?

Speaker 1 Is that, I guess, maybe?

Speaker 2 Like, to show what you're into? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 No, no, no.

Speaker 1 I'm not talking about that. That stuff gets confusing.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 You got to be careful with the Hanky code. I looked it up just to make sure that I could, in case you weren't unaware, I could have a specific point to reference.

Speaker 1 And there's a lot of, like,

Speaker 1 a lot of things in the Hanky code are like, just to give you an example, it's, it's pocket dependent. So a lot of it's like, I like belly button stuff.

Speaker 1 And if you put it in the right pocket and then the left pocket is like, avoid my belly button at all costs. You just got to be really, really careful about this stuff.

Speaker 2 I feel like you'd need to carry a chart.

Speaker 1 You need a float. Yeah, you absolutely need a chart.
I don't believe that this is in actual practical.

Speaker 1 daily use but it is a fascinating i'm looking at like a legitimately like this chart that i'm looking at has like mustard gold lame,

Speaker 1 rust, brown lace. Like it's, it's, there's a lot to keep track of here with this.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you also have to be really good at differentiating colors.

Speaker 1 Yes, that's true. You could, you could be a colorblind person that has a very surprising evening.
You have to be careful.

Speaker 2 Well, that is not, I was talking more about the idea that as handkerchiefs were popularized, you had everything from like your snot rag, which was just some torn piece of fabric that was very functional, to like a pocket hanky that would look nice that like maybe some like an you know someone who considered themselves a gentleman may you know may carry around maybe offer it to

Speaker 2 I don't know a hysterical woman yeah I'm saying that in with sarcasm oh okay why are you shaking your head and saying no I'm not this is how I feel no I'm not don't don't pretend like I'm doing that you're giving me a double thumbs up well I feel like in the context of our show people know that if I use a phrase like a hysterical woman that i'm being sarcastic but i don't know maybe you're a new listener and you think oh my gosh gosh this took a turn i was enjoying it um

Speaker 1 stuff about the hanky coat and then the hysterical woman

Speaker 2 you could you could perfume them tuck them in your sleeve that would be lovely there were all kinds of specific occasions like wedding handkerchiefs uh special baptismal handkerchiefs to dab off you know baby's head after it's been doused.

Speaker 2 And all these things could be embroidered with dates and names, you know, important events and that kind of thing. Prayer handkerchiefs, which also could be used.

Speaker 2 It's funny because I was raised Catholic and I think about my upbringing. A lot of the adults in my life always had handkerchiefs.

Speaker 2 And some of that dates to the fact that

Speaker 2 when my mom was growing up, going to church, if you forgot to cover your head, because this was traditional at the time.

Speaker 2 in their in their faith, you would just pin a handkerchief on your head as you walked in. And so she can recount many times just having like

Speaker 2 her mom's handkerchief just dropped on her head and Bobby pinned into place.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 This was not, this was before my time. That was not something I experienced, but I remember handkerchiefs always being around and having like the monogrammed ones.
And

Speaker 2 you're looking like you don't believe me.

Speaker 1 No, I believe all of it. I just, I,

Speaker 1 I just, um, I just feel like

Speaker 1 whenever someone would, would have one of the dad would have one sometimes.

Speaker 1 And normally, like, I think there's definitely a place for re-examine cultural stuff and being like, did we move away from this too far?

Speaker 1 You know, there's people that want to like pine for a simpler era and they cling to some of these like things that we don't necessarily like.

Speaker 1 They're not a necessity, but it's nice to see somebody with like a, I don't know, pocket watch or something like that, right? There's a,

Speaker 1 it's just

Speaker 1 the idea that you would keep this rag with you and then offer it to other people or even have it in your pocket or use it and put it back in your pocket.

Speaker 1 I just feel like the first day that someone came up with disposable, everyone should have been like, okay, guys, handkerchiefs in the fire. Never again.

Speaker 2 Well, Justin,

Speaker 2 you have led us to someone coming up with disposable. Yes.
But before we talk about that, please follow me to the billing department. Let's go.

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Speaker 5 Alright, we're over 70 episodes into our show. Let's learn Everything.
So let's do a quick progress check. Have we learned about quantum physics?

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Speaker 1 Episode 64.

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Speaker 1 I hope whoever came up with disposable tissues wasn't too proud of themselves because I just arrived at it independently. You know, and all I have is the benefit of their previous existence.

Speaker 2 Now, you've got to understand that at this moment, we're about to talk about disposable,

Speaker 2 not handkerchiefs at this point, tissue. Yeah, I'm not going to use the brand name.
Yeah, well, I am going to use a brand name, but I'm not, that's like, it's, we're not there yet.

Speaker 2 There's a flow here.

Speaker 1 No, I know. I'm not trying to rush.
I'm just saying it's hard to not say.

Speaker 2 And it's true.

Speaker 1 The brand name.

Speaker 2 So we're in the 1900s, and at this point, handkerchiefs are ubiquitous.

Speaker 2 And so the designs and patterns and colors, it could be a way for a fashion designer designer to like kind of start introducing their look or their style with new patterns, like a geometric print or a certain color palette, that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 You can use up a fabric they don't like. They have extra cutoffs.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. Well, and I mean, all of this would be a way of saying this is the direction of fashion.

Speaker 2 They were also used for things that were practical, like you could have recipes. Cocktail recipes were a popular thing to have on a handkerchief.

Speaker 2 And you can find, there's tons of these if you want to look for examples of these from throughout the 1900s of beautifully designed, ornate, or like funny.

Speaker 2 There were ones with cartoons on them and comics, like funny how-to guides.

Speaker 1 Oh, I bet you're busting up every time you got that out. You got a, you got a ziggy in there, got a beetle bailey to enjoy.

Speaker 2 All of those things, all of those things would be on there. Um, there were like your hobbies, how to do things, things like um, palm reading were popular things.

Speaker 2 You'd get a handkerchief that would show you how to read someone's poem. Um, there were things like maps, it was popular to put maps on them.
Nice. That was a very practical thing.

Speaker 2 Just put a map on a handkerchief. You can carry it with you.
So all kinds of things. So handkerchiefs are really this sort of, I mean, you can see where that would catch on.

Speaker 2 It's not just like a style or status. It's like a, it's who you are.

Speaker 1 It's like a slap bracelet. It's showing your personality.

Speaker 2 This is who you are.

Speaker 1 It's like carrying around the Wiz backpack. Everybody knows what you deal with.

Speaker 2 I think it's like the equivalent of what we do with water bottles today, right?

Speaker 2 Everybody's got their reusable water bottle and it's a certain brand and color and style, and they do things with it, and that tells you everything.

Speaker 2 There's lots of TikToks that tell you exactly who you are based on your water bottle.

Speaker 1 The main criteria that I looked for in a water bottle is one that would say nothing about who I am other than this is a man who enjoys hydration.

Speaker 2 I wanted one that was big, but not too big.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you failed. You got one that was extremely extreme.

Speaker 2 Right as handkerchiefs are really on the rise, but of course a disruptor has to. Got to disrupt it.
Right.

Speaker 2 Mess it all up so there is a company called kimberly clark and during world war one they made these crepe paper filters for gas masks that's where this starts okay

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 they in the 1920s they took that sort of i don't want to say formula but that product and refined it into cotex oh the for periods for menstrual cycles uh and so first first come the cotex and then they take that product make it softer uh lighter thinner.

Speaker 2 And by 1924, they renamed the Cotex to the Kleenex.

Speaker 2 And they start marketing Kleenex. Now, initially.

Speaker 1 Kotex is still a thing, right? Yeah. Oh, it's just the company net rather than, I got you.

Speaker 2 They just didn't call those Cotex. If you're going to use it on your face, it's called Kleenex.
And that's what Kleenex were for, to wipe cold cream off your face.

Speaker 2 That was the initial purpose of a Kleenex.

Speaker 2 They were very heavily marketed as if, like, all the celebrities, when they would, because that was a common beauty practice of the time was to cover your face in cold cream after you removed your makeup to remove all the celebrities after they cover their face in cold cream they use kleenex to remove it because they're soft and gentle on your skin and that was where kleenex started people still use cold cream after they take off their makeup i'm sure there are people who do i don't think i do i think that it is as popular as it was no

Speaker 2 yeah my my mom was a big vaseline fan

Speaker 2 perfect for a slippery face no there are uh again i've learned this from TikTok, there are lots of products to remove your makeup now.

Speaker 2 So I think it's very variable and up to how much you want to spend on them.

Speaker 1 I'm sure. Like everything.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 initially, people are just using them to, I mean, that was, it was like a beauty product. And it was very much associated with femininity, too.

Speaker 2 It was not something that a masculine person would want to use because... you wouldn't put cold cream on your face either, right?

Speaker 2 So about five years after they're introduced, one of, and this is the story that is told, one of the researchers at Kleenex

Speaker 2 has a cold

Speaker 2 and is using the facial tissues to blow his nose and thinks,

Speaker 2 well, this is better because after I use this, and it's full of snot, I can throw it in the trash can.

Speaker 2 That's so superior to these handkerchiefs. that we all carry around.

Speaker 2 And so at that point, they start marketing them not just for removing your cold cream, but also for blowing your nose or wiping your nose or in some way, you know, are you sneezing? Are you coughing?

Speaker 2 Do you have a runny nose? That kind of direction. And what they really harp on is this concept of, you know, with a handkerchief, you're putting the cold right back in your pocket.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Guys? Or your purse or whatever.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And this was a really compelling idea to people. And it would take a few years for everyone to adopt it.

Speaker 1 But obviously Kleenex took it should have been one headline in one newspaper and then everyone's like yes burn the rags

Speaker 2 well but again a couple things one we're talking about a price point

Speaker 2 a leftover piece of cloth was accessible for almost anyone at the time which is true yeah that's true buying a box of tissues was a whole other matter

Speaker 2 and also like again they had become part of culture and they were associated with things I mean it was it was a very romantic gesture for a you know,

Speaker 2 I think you, I think you kind of, you get this image of like, and again, these are like old stereotypical images of like a woman being overcome with emotion and starting to cry.

Speaker 2 And then a very nice man in a trench coat and a hat, like handing her his handkerchief. And it was all very romanticized, right?

Speaker 2 So you had to like fight that, which they did, and then specifically introduced products like, tissues for men

Speaker 2 to fight the idea that only women were supposed to use Kleenex. So there were marketed, like in the 80s, Kleenex for men.

Speaker 1 You laugh, but within the last like 12 hours, I was looking,

Speaker 1 I saw dude wipes at the store. Like it's still, we still feel the need to label who we think is the best

Speaker 1 target demo for our various wipes.

Speaker 2 Well, and I think it's interesting because what you're fighting against is this same sort of like this idea that somehow it's masculine to use a dirty piece of cloth to wipe off your nose, And that it's also

Speaker 2 then

Speaker 2 affectionate, gentlemanly, romantic, whatever word you want to use, to take that dirty piece of cloth

Speaker 2 and offer it to someone. That same cloth.

Speaker 1 And we knew, we knew about germs at this point.

Speaker 2 So we knew.

Speaker 2 And so at this point, Kleenex kind of take over and a lot more people are using them. Now, the handkerchief doesn't go away.
The handkerchief has not gone away to this day. I know.

Speaker 2 But definitely, I think people are more likely to use Kleenex. Now, all of that goes away because at this point, I think we're kind of into today where most of us would use Kleenex.

Speaker 2 And I'm going to talk about the blowing the nose too.

Speaker 2 But the question is, which one is more sanitary?

Speaker 2 Now, if you use a Kleenex in the way that you wipe your nose, put that immediately in a trash can and wash your hands, I can see a great sanitary argument there.

Speaker 2 But I think we all have been guilty of taking that Kleenex and like shoving it into your pocket or balling it up and putting it in your purse. How many of us have those memories?

Speaker 2 Going through a loved one's purse and finding balled up Kleenex?

Speaker 2 You know that happens.

Speaker 2 And we all are guilty of that. Also, even if you do throw it away

Speaker 2 and you don't leave it on the podcasting desk or on the arm of the couch.

Speaker 2 Even if you throw it away, did you go wash your hands immediately after?

Speaker 1 Yeah, unlikely, right? If I didn't throw it away.

Speaker 2 So probably not. So there does become this sort of question: like, well, I mean, with perfect use, yes, this seems more sanitary.

Speaker 2 And certainly, I think we can all agree that, like, if you think about a traditional handkerchief, a piece of cloth that you blow your nose on, sort of wrap up the snotty part to cover it, and then tuck it into your pocket or your bag or whatever.

Speaker 2 And then you've got this like dark, warm area with germs in it. It's like you've just made yourself an incubator, right? Like you, it's like you're trying to grow something.

Speaker 1 None of this is any different from traditional handkerchiefs, though, so far that I can think of, right?

Speaker 2 Like this. That's what I'm saying.
No, I'm talking about traditional handkerchiefs. I'm saying you can see why that would be a problem.

Speaker 2 And I don't think it's realistic to say I have a reusable handkerchief, but as soon as I use it one time, I throw it in the washing machine.

Speaker 2 I think that would be difficult for most people. But then there's this sustainability issue.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, we throw away a lot of Kleenex. That's a lot of waste.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but it's going to be a lot of waste if you wash those handkerchiefs as frequently as you should, which is every time you blow your nose. So I don't know.

Speaker 2 It was a big, there were articles written about it all throughout the pandemic about this idea that like handkerchiefs either should be done away with once and for all.

Speaker 2 Do we finally see like this is ridiculous? Get rid of reusable handkerchiefs. And then other people who argued the other side of it.

Speaker 1 No,

Speaker 2 this just like, because if you fold it right, you're hiding the germs better than you, and you're not throwing away the tissues. Let's be honest, you're not.
Just say you're not washing your hands.

Speaker 1 Just say you're a nasty dog who loves this dirty rag and move on it. Stop trying to justify it.
Kids could be reading that. You know what I mean? Kids, our nation's kids.

Speaker 2 If you use, I will say the final word on whatever you use, after you use it, whether you're throwing it away or putting it in the washing machine, you do need to wash your hands, which is something that people still, even after, and I don't want to say after during continuing COVID, people are not consistently washing their hands.

Speaker 2 With all that being said, though, wiping your snot is one thing. Should you be using these implements to blow your nose?

Speaker 2 So, when you blow your nose, this probably doesn't surprise you, you generate a lot of pressure inside your nasal cavity. Okay,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 is that a wise thing to do?

Speaker 1 I mean, are you actually asking me? Because I'm a little too smart to just like barrel into this

Speaker 1 question, knowing that there's some sort of trick coming.

Speaker 2 Okay, there's a study. Yeah.
There's a study done at the University of Virginia.

Speaker 1 Studies, tricks, same thing with these scientists.

Speaker 2 In the year 2000. And basically, they put a thick liquid dye into the nose.
They squirted it into the nose of adult volunteers for this study.

Speaker 2 And then they had them either sneeze, cough, or blow their nose. And they would make them sneeze by like putting something under their nose that would trigger a sneeze.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And then they actually did CAT scans of their sinuses afterwards. Whoa.
And this is upsetting to me.

Speaker 2 What they found is that people who blew their nose had some of that dye in their sinus cavities afterwards, whereas people who coughed or sneezed didn't.

Speaker 2 And it kind of gave rise to the pressure. Right.
The pressure that you generated by blowing your nose blasted some of that, not just out of your nose, but into your...

Speaker 1 Into the brain tube.

Speaker 2 Well, not into the brain tube and the holes in your skull that we call sinuses.

Speaker 1 The brain tubes.

Speaker 2 And what it led, one of the researchers who's an infectious disease specialist, beg the question,

Speaker 2 if we are blasting some of that mucus.

Speaker 1 You keep saying blasting?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, that's what you're doing. You're generating an incredible amount of pressure.

Speaker 2 If you're blasting some of that mucus into your sinus cavities and that mucus is laden with some sort of germ, viral or bacterial or whatever,

Speaker 2 are we worsening the condition? Are we setting ourselves up for exactly what I have just developed, which is a secondary sinus infection after this viral upper respiratory infection?

Speaker 2 Now, the study did not go on to like chart rates of sinus infection, you know, because that's what you need to do, right?

Speaker 2 To prove whether or not this mattered, you'd actually have to see, do people who blow their nose more often or at all

Speaker 2 have more, yes, have longer infections, require antibiotics more, have more sinus infections, documented sinus infections, not just like you think you had one, but like actually whatever criteria we're going to use, clinical or CAT scan.

Speaker 2 So you need to do more than that, but there's a question there. Is it bad to blow your nose?

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 2 And there are other risks. There have been documented cases.
First of all, blowing your nose more can lead to more nosebleeds, which doesn't seem like that big a deal, right? Okay, so your nosebleeds.

Speaker 2 Most of the time, that is a benign condition. Yeah.
Can be serious. Most of the time isn't.

Speaker 2 But also, there have been cases of things like air in the brain or air in the inner ear or even like as a result of blowing your nose, you blow your nose so hard that you blow air into your brain.

Speaker 2 Seriously, there was a case of an orbital blowout fracture, like the orbit, your eye socket, like breaking because you blew your nose so hard.

Speaker 2 And like you read these case presentations and like someone comes into the emergency room and they're kind of sleepy and out of it and there's clear fluid running out of their nose and that's their cerebrospinal fluid running out of their nose and it's because they blew their nose so hard.

Speaker 1 You need that stuff, I'm assuming.

Speaker 2 Yes, you need cerebrospinal fluid. Yeah, you don't want it running out your nose.
That's usually a bad thing. So now, again, these are incredibly rare, right?

Speaker 1 The reason they're case reports is because they're incredibly rare.

Speaker 1 Incredibly rare, but Sydney did want to take a moment just to make sure that was somewhere in your brain every time you blow your nose from now on to the end of time. Well, just like,

Speaker 1 this is like City's version of, doesn't she look tired? Like, it just slips it in there a little bit.

Speaker 2 This is like, this is something to think about.

Speaker 2 Listen, if blowing your nose was clinically proven to be a good idea medically, a healthy idea, then I think an assessment of risks and benefits, you would look at these things and say, oh my gosh, this is incredibly rare.

Speaker 2 This doesn't weigh in. But if you can't prove that blowing your nose is a good idea,

Speaker 2 you start to look at these rare complications because you're like, well, is it, was it even a good idea? And, you know, is there any benefit?

Speaker 2 There was another study done in 2021, and I think this might be a middle ground for you. Okay.
And it said, okay.

Speaker 1 Normally, I

Speaker 1 abhor a middle ground, but please go on, Cindy.

Speaker 2 Blowing our noses has not been proven to be helpful. It feels good.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Which is helpful.

Speaker 2 But it also might blow mucus back up into our sinuses, and maybe that's bad.

Speaker 1 We don't know. Or as you've demonstrated, explodes your brain.
So I think my pleasure of it will be somewhat subdued from this point forward.

Speaker 2 So this study looked at: is there a safer way to blow your nose?

Speaker 2 So when you blow your nose, Justin,

Speaker 2 do you pinch one nostril closed?

Speaker 1 I think we've established that I do. Okay.
Can't really blast it out without that pressure.

Speaker 2 This study looked specifically at whether or not it was safer, well, not necessarily safer in the sense of the pressure generated.

Speaker 2 So if it changed the pressure that was generated inside the sine, inside the nasal passages, if you just blew your nose instead of pinching one nostril shut,

Speaker 2 and it looked at the objective clearing of the nose that you can get in that way.

Speaker 2 And what they found is that if you just blow your nose, so and what I mean is you don't shut one nostril off, just blow your nose.

Speaker 2 The pressure you generate is like half of the pressure you generate when you close off one nostril. Okay, so if we're worried about these sort of incredibly rare, you know, unicorn complications,

Speaker 2 This does decrease that risk, right? Because the pressure is so much lower.

Speaker 2 They also found that objectively speaking, you clear your nasal passages just as well when you blow both at the same time as you do when you do one at one at a time.

Speaker 2 Now,

Speaker 2 the only hang-up is that subjectively, meaning when they asked people, how clear does your nose feel?

Speaker 2 They felt that it was clearer when they pinched off one nostril and blew one nostril at a time. Even though objectively it wasn't, they felt like they're not.

Speaker 1 They're just confused due to the huge hole they just blown in their skull with their awesome nose blow. Possibly.

Speaker 2 What, you know, the average adult when they have a cold, they found blows their nose like 45 times a day. So what I would posit is perhaps we need to blow our nose a little less, less vigorously.

Speaker 2 You know when you're going for it. You know when you're really trying to blow it out.
You know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 Okay, Sid, every single time. Okay.
No half measures here. I live my life a quarter mile at a time.
Okay. I use all eight cylinders, all eight.

Speaker 2 What I'm saying is calm it down. I'm saying calm it down.
Don't blow your nose quite so hard. Consider this technique.
Blow both nostrils at the same time. Don't pinch off one nostril at a time.

Speaker 2 These may all be safer alternatives. You still clear out your nose.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 2 It's just take it down a notch. Okay.
You don't have to sound like Tommy Smurl when he blows his nose.

Speaker 1 It's brutal, folks.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And all I'm saying is that just calm it down. Just calm it down and wash your hands.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much for listening to our podcast. We hope you enjoyed yourself.
Thanks to taxpayers for use of their song Medicines as the intro announcer of our program.

Speaker 1 That is going to do it for us for this week. So until next time, my name is Justin McElroy.

Speaker 2 And I'm Sidney McElroy.

Speaker 1 And as always, don't drill a hole in your head.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 2 Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artist-owned shows, supported directly by you.