Wendy Talks About Her Pyromaniac Past — and More [Video]

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Versus.

And today we have something really special for you.

So recently I flew to LA to be interviewed by Emma Chamberlain.

She's a YouTuber.

She has her own podcast.

It's called Anything Goes.

And Emma has been described by a friend of mine as Gandhi for 21-year-olds.

I was very excited to meet with her.

But I have to say that when I arrived in LA

I was quite jet-lagged and just between us, I might have had a cheeky nap in the green room.

But then I met Emma, and we just got along like a house on fire.

And we had this really, really fun chat.

We talked about the science of vaping and alcohol, ketamine, and orgasms.

We talked a lot about orgasms.

And I just had so much fun that I wanted to share this interview with you.

We also talked about the time that I was accused of being a pyromaniac and was almost kicked out of uni for it.

So I hope you enjoy this interview.

This is what we're going to play for you today.

And if you are listening to this on Spotify, you can also watch this interview.

That's right.

This is on video.

You might be looking at me right now.

If you're listening on another app, just enjoy beautiful audio.

All right, this is Emma Chamberlain interviewing me for her podcast, Anything Goes.

Hope you enjoy.

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Were you a science kid in school?

Because I was.

Oh, I was not.

Really?

I mean,

like, you know how like you backpedal your life story and you're like, I was meant to be a science journalist or, and there is, I like, I did find, because now I live in Melbourne, like back in my hometown, and I did find a book that I wrote when I was like in year two or something that was like, How plaque forms.

Oh, and it was like basically what I'm doing now.

Like, it was like, you know, the little bacteria live on your teeth.

And I was like, look, I was destined to be, but the truth is, like, I wasn't really that interested in science at all.

I guess I was like, more of a drama kid.

That's so funny.

So, you were not into science, but were you like naturally maybe curious?

Not even, I mean, I studied it.

So, like, finished high school and was like, I get, you know, like, I don't want to get a job yet.

So I, I, you know, I got to go to college.

And then was like, curing cancer is a thing like that seems great in the world.

So that's why I studied.

I studied biomedical science.

And it was just, and then was really bad.

I'm a nerd in that I want to get good grades.

So I was like studying really hard, just wrote learning stuff, didn't really understand anything.

In like my second year of uni, I had the Bunsen burner.

Like I was terrible in lab, had the Bunsen burner on too high and melted some equipment.

It was so bad that I almost got kicked out of uni because they were like, you must be incompetent.

Like you, you,

they didn't believe I could be.

So they were like, you must be a pyromaniac.

What?

And I managed to convince him.

I was like, no, I didn't do it on purpose.

I swear.

I just did it anyway.

And then I walked out of that meeting and was like, okay, clearly I'm not going to be a scientist.

Okay.

But then somewhere along the way, like realized that what I love is science stories.

It's like there's so much like fun stories of discovery to be found in science.

Yep.

It's like how we know how the world works.

It's how we know like why you should go on one diet and not the other.

It's like why whether jumping into like ice water makes you feel better.

Like

it's how we know anything.

Yes.

And so that was fun.

That was fun to like talk to scientists and explain things.

And I think because I was so bad at it, it helps me explain because nothing's in, it wasn't intuitive when I was starting out, you know.

Yes.

It would say complicated science things and I'd be like, I don't understand.

Please say it again.

See, that is such a perfect niche for you.

It's like you are curious about all of it.

You love it.

Your job is then translating it into human.

Yeah.

It's a totally different skill to translate it to human.

And that's kind of what you do.

That's what I and I think like because I had these like my parents who are both academics funnily enough.

So I guess that must have been another thing in the mix.

They always telling me like if you don't understand something,

just like ask more questions.

Don't ever feel stupid for not understanding something.

It's, you know,

if someone's trying to teach you something and you don't understand it, you just keep asking questions.

And so I think that really helps.

It's like if a scientist is just using these complicated words, I mean, by now,

I've been in the game for so long.

Yeah.

I can speak the language.

Yes.

But when I was starting out, there was just a lot of, okay, so what was that?

What do you mean?

Yes.

Any analogies you can help me out with?

Yes.

So it's been fun to like marry the two worlds.

Yeah.

Now, your specialty is translating things to human and sort of sorting through all the different sort of scientific misconceptions.

I think because the scientific language is so complex, it can be misunderstood so easily,

which is why your voice is so important, but also so exciting for people because it's like, oh,

now I get it.

Like, now I get it.

I understand.

Cause it's like, there's always so many conflicting ideas.

And ultimately, you know, I think science is relevant for everybody because it's like we all use it to figure out how to have a better life.

It's so important.

But if you Google something, you're going to find 90 different results.

Yes, there's so much garbage.

And what's funny is like when I started Science Versus,

the world of bullshit online was just

starting.

I mean, I guess that's what I was seeing.

And I was like, oh, I should make a podcast where we're like looking at things in the zeitgeist and really examining them and like really, you know, reading the scientific papers because we don't want to be regurgitating more of the misinformation.

Like

we're down there reading the scientific papers, then translating them.

But when I started Science Versus, I was like, we've got four seasons in us.

You know, like, once we tackle, like, yes, climate change exists, you know, yes, vaccines, like, you know, are good for you.

And we need to be taking them despite, you know, minor risks here and there.

You know, once you hit the top, I was like, all right, all right, this show's going to be done.

Right.

But the internet has just kept minting bullshit.

Like, it's like, as if it was just coming for me.

No, it's never ending.

It's never the diet.

Like, more and more diets every year.

There's fasting, there's keto.

There was now, like, last season, I did like seed oils.

I was like, Where does like now we're not allowed to see seed oil?

Yes.

What?

Where did this come from?

Yep.

And I was like, Thank you.

The thing is, is that humans love, I think humans love, and you've probably noticed this over the years.

We like to find a band-aid.

We want to find a band-aid for things.

We want to find an explanation.

And honestly, I'm somebody who is somewhat, I'd like to say that I'm not, but I am

somewhat,

we all are susceptible to these, you know, big claims.

Well, we want an answer when something's wrong with our health, when we know we're not functioning in the way that we used to, like whether like our brain's feeling foggy or like tummy's not feeling right.

We're like, what could it be?

What could it be?

And, you know, going to doctors, like, I'm all about the like healthcare system and go to your doctor, but like they can be assholes and they cannot listen to you.

Totally.

And so at the same time as we're seeing, you know, this sort of rise of misinformation online, there's also a greater appreciation that like yeah you go to your doctor if you don't have a gp that you like they might just be like it's all in your head yeah live with it is it really that bad like take some medication that has nasty side effects and so yeah it doesn't surprise me that people are then going online finding like influencers like people that they like are giving them other solutions and then running with that so i totally get the situation that we're in yeah but it just does mean that i think a lot of vulnerable people who are searching for solutions who don't have like the doctor the medical care that they need i think they are getting trapped in this world where they're like buying supplements they don't need going on diets they don't need to go on like and that and so that's why it feels good to make the show to be like well look here's what might be going on here's what maybe you don't need to be buying this maybe jumping in ice cold water will be helpful you know yep so i get it so i i think like as i've been making the show i've been way more empathetic to uh to all of us who are just, you know, I think maybe when I was starting, I came in from like a real like on high of like, I'll read the science and tell you what the answer is.

But now I'm like, I get it.

It's really, really hard out there.

Yep.

And so we're just like trying to put good information out there.

What do you think is the reason for so much misinformation?

Like, I, you know, when I think about it.

One reason could be like, there's a company benefiting from misinformation, possibly.

Like, that's maybe one source.

Or a person.

A person.

Or a person.

Do you think it's more nowadays

influencers and sort of uneducated individuals or like, you know, individuals who lack the credential to be spreading information?

Do you think it's those sort of people who kind of want to provide an answer to, you know, maybe build a following and so people will sort of trust them and like look to them for answers?

Or do you think it's more like corporations that are interested in spreading misinformation?

Or do you think it's a combination?

Oh, interesting.

The ones that

like that really piss me off.

Like, I don't, I don't know when we look at like the big problem of misinformation online.

I, like, generally, I think it's individuals.

Like, corporations have all, like, we always know, like, we know capitalism exists.

Yeah.

They're that, they're there to spread a message of propaganda.

I feel like people know, people have in their heads.

Like, if you see a

shell ad for, like, we're interested in renewables, everyone's head is like, fuck off now like you know everyone's like I don't like okay yeah yeah thank you for your contribution to climate change totally appreciate it like I understand the like we understand the language we like see through maybe a corporation exactly but with individuals that's where I see people really getting sucked in and so and you know sometimes we have these like really I don't want to name any names but you know in the in the wellness influencer sector there are these there are some really big names who kind of use what I see is is they use our mistrust of corporations

to then like twist things on their head.

So a story that I hear over and over again is like, you can't trust big pharma.

You can't even trust science.

They're all in it for the money.

Instead, what you need are natural supplements.

And guess who sells them?

Me.

Me.

And guess what?

That's a code.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you're like, and you're like, they're like, follow the money, man.

Follow the money.

Like, you can't trust pharma.

And it's like, I'll follow the money right to your damn pocket.

And it's it's just this story.

And I'm like, how are people getting sucked into this?

But I know why.

It's this thing that like sometimes science calls the guru effect, where you have these guru, they have this, like, which you've talked about on the show, this parasocial relationship, where they feel like, you know, oh, it's my friend.

I can trust them.

And then all of a sudden you're buying these supplements when it's like unproven.

Yeah.

You are putting money right into their pockets.

Exactly.

I'm shitting on science.

I'm like, excuse me.

Well, that's the thing that's so annoying about it, I think, too, especially is the blatant and so obvious hypocrisy.

It's like right there.

It's like, babe, you're, you know, it's, it's, it's unbelievable, but I also, it's such a perfect business model, despite it being evil.

It's genius because it's the perfect manipulation because it's playing into like, well, I'm a small business and I'm, you know, and I'm an individual and I've healed my issues through this, you know, turmeric supplement.

Yeah.

If you say like, oh, you know, you can cure this, this, and that using this, you know, supplement that obviously doesn't work.

Yeah.

But there's no science to show that it works.

It's potentially very dangerous.

Particularly if you're not saying things like you need to make sure you take like traditional, like conventional medicines too.

Yep.

You know, you can, it's, yeah, that, so that really pisses me off.

And then the other thing that I see a lot of, because you were sort of mentioning, like, is it influencers who maybe are uneducated?

But actually, I see a lot of people who have like MD wearing their scrubs out there on TikTok talking bullshit.

And I'm like, and that

really pisses me off because they're clearly using their healthcare education, like whether it's their RNs or whatever it is, they're using that and they know they're using that to get.

to get people to think, oh, I can trust them.

They've got their scrubs on.

They probably came out from seeing a patient or something.

Yeah.

And if you're wearing your scrubs or you're like a doctor, you know, you need to be really careful about your facts.

And so often I'm like, because part of the show is like looking for like, what's the internet saying about a particular thing?

And I'll see these like doctors saying stuff, and then we fact-check it with experts in the field.

I'm reading the papers, and I'm like, That's not, that's not real.

So, this is this is like what we're fighting against.

I'm like, you, if you are about to go on a show like this with an audience, yes, take some responsibility, get your facts right.

So, let's play devil's advocate then.

Love it.

We're all human, right?

Including the experts, including, you know, the people writing, you know, the most advanced, the most modern, you you know, the most accurate scientific papers.

Yeah.

Can we really trust anything for sure?

In your opinion?

No, great.

It's a great question.

It's a great question.

So here's my pitch for why I love science and why I think we can trust science.

So so at its best, science is just testing.

all these theories we have, whatever it is.

Like, will this skincare product reduce wrinkles?

Will

this, will ketamine, like, cure depression?

you know like you can say that or even you can have had an amazing experience or you and your friends can have had amazing experiences and you can tell people about it but you'll never know like oh like does this actually work or was it you know i took ketamine i felt great for a month or whatever like was it something else that happened that night was it you know were you actually moving to like was it starting to be a good place in your life and then you felt great like yeah so the only way you could actually know was it the ketamine ketamine that caused it and like that caused this benefit.

Let's stick with our ketamine example.

Like, is to actually do a study where not only do you take, like, let's say a hundred people and give who have depression and give some of them ketamine, you also need to give some of them a placebo because the placebo effect is so powerful.

It's so powerful.

It's so, and like, I know sometimes people hear that and they're like, oh, it's all in your head.

It's like, but no, it's, it should be something that we can all harness.

Like, it is wonderful that the placebo effect it's amazing is amazing like that we can cure ourselves with our minds to a certain extent for certain things you know yes but it does mean that every like clinical trial worth its weight in anything has to have a placebo arm yep because if you tell someone like hey i got a great new drug for you you want to try it and like all of a sudden they feel better it's like who knows if it was the placebo effect yes or ketamine yes so science is the way that we can we can do that that we can find that out.

And then through other kinds of studies, that we can actually test the mechanism of how the hell like ketamine might be having these effects.

But having said that, you can't trust a single study.

And that's what we've learned.

And that's, I think, what we keep getting caught up with.

Like the, I don't like saying like the media, because I am the media,

but the media.

We'll often present a single study and be, you know, sticking with the ketamine example and be like ketamine now cures depression or whatever because there was one study that maybe gave people, you know, ketamine and then checked them the next day and was like, oh my God, their depression scores, which has happened.

There have been studies like this where they get people with serious, nasty depression, you know, maybe having suicidal thoughts, really bad place, give them ketamine and a bunch of them the next day, they're like, they don't even have depression.

And there have been studies like that.

And then you, if you report that, you're like, oh my gosh.

Well, this is the cure.

This is the cure.

Right.

But you have to, you have to, and I, and I understand understand that you're cycle yada yada but just so people understand sort of how science works then you just got to wait and see what's going to happen with the other studies right you want to test it in more people with different kinds of depression and ketamine is a perfect example so now we have more data and we can see that it probably helps about 50% of the people who take it and it probably effects on average last a couple of weeks and then many people will go back to normal.

So you see what I mean?

So that's where I think people start to think like, can you trust science?

Because you're like, wait, you just told me ketamine was the cure.

Now it's not the cure.

Right.

When really it's just like the progression of knowledge.

Yep.

And so on science versus, and I would just like encourage people as you're looking on the internet at studies, you're like, is this just one study?

Is this a body of research?

Like, how sure can we be that this is going to hold up?

And it doesn't mean that that first study was crap.

It just means like, that's what they found once.

Are they going to find it again?

Yes.

Yes.

See, I think it's also, it's so important for people to remember we have to trust while also understanding that

the, the, the research never ends.

It never

ends.

That's right.

Like we will never have this perfect book filled with all the answers.

Like, I mean, maybe in like, what, 5,000 years, if like, whatever, if everything lasts that long.

Like, I don't know.

It's like, I mean, maybe then.

Maybe then.

That's exactly.

Yeah.

That's right.

And I think it sort of goes back to what you were saying about how we want a quick solution.

And science is a process.

Yeah.

It's a frustrating long process.

Yeah.

But it's still the best we got.

And it's still way better than someone said good, too.

It's pretty amazing.

It is actually amazing.

Like, I feel like a lot of us sort of.

We're not grateful enough for the time that we live in.

This is actually a phenomenal time to be alive where like medicine is so

cool.

Like we're curing shit.

Like, you know, it's like crazy hearing stories about different diseases that were just wiping everyone out.

Yeah.

Like a hundred years ago.

And now it's no big deal.

Yeah.

It's no big deal.

It's crazy.

Or there's a vaccine.

No one even gets it anymore.

And we take it for granted, but also, you know, when there are things that go wrong and there are things that like we think we understand and then we don't.

And then maybe some people, I don't know, we're all human and we're doing the best that we can.

And we, I think.

At the end of the day,

you know, yeah, there's, there's the man who wants money and then there's, you know, even the individuals who want money.

But I think ultimately we all

want to be happy and healthy.

We do.

Yes.

Like I think that that is most of our goals.

Yes, yes.

And I don't want to be like out here being like, you know, science is like, you know, like come down from heaven as, you know, God was like, oh, there are problems with science.

And science does have biases.

I mean, I was, um, I was listening back to our episode on the G-Spot that we did, which has like a very funny history.

It feels kind of dated now because anyone talking about the female G-Spot.

I mean, I think people need to be talking about it.

Let's talk about it.

I actually don't know anything about the G-Spot, which is crazy because I'm the type of person to be like, okay, find it to like a guy, but then I'm like, I actually don't know what it is or where it is.

I also don't know if anyone would feel good if you found it.

Like, I actually don't know.

The story, the story of

how the G-Spot was born

is wild.

Wait, can you give, give, let's do a brief detour and tell us about the G-Spot?

Yeah, then I'll come right back to how it fits into like science could be missed sometimes.

Yes.

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There was this nurse, Beverly Whipple, who was doing, who I interviewed,

still alive today.

And

she, oh gosh, what was this?

Let's put it in the 80s.

Uh-huh.

Was doing this study in women who, when they orgasmed, they peed.

a little and some in some cases peed a lot and like needed like towels and this was very upsetting for them and so she was yeah and so she's studying these women who at the time you know very taboo very embarrassed about this and so she started examining them which meant this is the time when video is going to be helpful yeah I guess this is yes yes there you go there you go hit it yes

so she would she would take their vaginas and like just kind of like insert her finger and then kind of go around like in a clockwise direction and be like how does this feel how does this feel how does this feel

and she kept finding that around the um if you imagine like your vagina is like a clock.

Yes.

Like the 11 a.m.

to 1 p.m.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Was like women would start smiling and get excited.

I love it.

Right.

Yeah.

So, and so then she ends up writing a book about it.

She goes on the Phil Donahue show and like we found archive from the Phil and it's so

funny because it's like so like, you know, but she's out there talking about like, you know, the best way to do it is with the woman on top and like missionary.

She does something like missionary style just doesn't cut it.

Interesting.

Like in the 80s, that's fucking amazing.

And you hear Phil Donahue go like, oh,

you know, they can't handle it.

They're like, we've never talked like this before.

Oh, that's amazing.

So she starts to and I think she did she did this talk.

Once it starts blowing up, maybe before she wrote the book, she did this talk.

And

people were like, you have to name this thing.

And at one point, it was going to be called the Whipple tickle because her name is Beverly Whipple.

But then they went for the G-Spot because G-Step is like Dr.

Grafenberg was another doctor who maybe found this spot.

Anyway, so it goes on Phil Donahue.

It blows up.

There's all these articles, you know, G-Spot, G-Spet.

Oh, my God.

Can you find it?

Let's find it.

But in the meantime, like.

no one knew like what what was it like is it nerves is it a gland like is it what what's going on there

um and it took until the 90s like 1998 i think it was when an an australian australian urologist helen o'connell was on a totally different track she was she was at she was reading this is where we get back to science can be sometimes

she wasn't really aware of all this g-spot talk at all she was on she was like studying anatomy she's like a uni student and her anatomy textbook basically didn't have the clitoris in it

No, like, I asked her, like, like, it was a blank spot there.

And she said, basically a blank spot.

What?

So so she's like using this anatomy textbook for four years you know it's got a perfectly formed penis in there yeah

without it of course there's no doubt there's like too much information about the penis there's like any but nothing on the clitoris nothing and she's getting madder and madder and madder about this and then one day she gets given this book by a group of feminists in america who's like a friend of hers was like you want to see this book and she's like yeah i want to see this book and it had these beautiful diagrams of like like the vulva and the vagina and these women had like tried to look at what at their vagina but they had this line in it that was like we unfortunately we didn't have cadavers so we couldn't like dissect to see like what's going on in there and helen o'connell's like i have access to cadavers yeah like i'm at a medical school we got like cadavers coming out of our art

yeah so she starts a study in like the 90s whoa one of the first scientific studies actually dissecting like where is the clitoris?

What's going on?

What's going on in there?

Yeah.

Because now I think it's fairly well known that, like, the tip that you see is like the tip of the iceberg.

You know, it's this very large, large, you know, I'm really, this is like something that's really good about this.

Like, you guys know, we know this, right?

I feel like even, you know, six years ago when we were looking at this episode, people were like, whoa, the clitoris is so big.

But now we know.

It's like big.

It's got like a Burt Reynolds moustache kind of vibe coming down.

It's big.

But she worked that out in 1998.

That paper was published.

Wow.

And it was only then where we could start being like, wait, so what's the G-spot?

Yeah.

To take it all back around.

Yeah.

And she was like, I can't see anything where they're in this like 11 to 1 position, but what I can see is this huge clitoris.

Wow, this thing is big.

Oh my God.

No one's talking about it.

So wait, is that actually what it is?

Is that the clitoris just extends inside so that it's like some women?

So it's a piece of your, right?

Because I feel like some people can't orgasm vaginal.

That's right.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's probably, so it's so now our understanding of the of like the vagina and that and the that whole region and the clitoris is like that the the clitoris the vaginal wall even the urethra which is like where we pee out of they all sort of interact in this very interesting way that like that they i don't know we use this terrible analogy in the podcast where we were like like puppies dancing

like oh come on remember that

and that is now like the vaginal urethral complex yeah which is probably what the g-spot was in some of these women and so there is no spot is bottom line but like why i think it reflects like that science can suck sometimes is like why wasn't the clitoris in that anatomy yeah like how did that get missed how did that and the and the thing is that in the 1900s like you know grey's anatomy of course yes yes so grey's anatomy is a textbook it's an anatomy textbook before it was a TV show.

In the 1900s, they had the clitoris.

Oh.

Late 1940s, clitoris gone.

Why?

I don't know.

We just

fucked.

We just, our like entire understand.

Are women?

Orgasm is bigger.

Is that true?

Have you read into that?

We did a whole episode on the orgasm gap.

Yeah.

You know, this idea, like, so men, if you ask like cis men, like,

how often do you orgasm when you have sex?

95% will say yes.

You ask like women, do you want to have a guess?

How many?

Well,

let's use my own life.

No, it's so mean.

I'm so sorry to everyone.

No, oh, God.

You're right.

I don't want to go too low.

I was going to say 40.

Yeah, I was about to say 40%.

65%.

Okay, that's good.

Yeah, you want to guess.

Oh, so that's all right.

That's straight women.

Do you want to guess gay women?

Oh, it must be way higher.

I mean, I feel like that would be like

95 yeah it's it's 89 89 very good yeah yeah yeah so that so so that tells us that like this is largely not a biological thing yeah it's not like it's it's that much harder to you know get us off no this is a cultural thing mostly do you think it is harder for women to orgasm like actually yeah so we we we looked into the science of this like why get into it yeah what is this what is this orgasm what's causing it is the female orgasm like such a big mystery mystery?

Exactly.

That was our exact question.

And there's been these phenomenal studies.

Like, I love our sex episodes.

There's so much fun.

So fun.

Right?

Because you can really dive deep.

Yeah.

And because we're just talking science, man.

But it's like also, no one's talking about it in a day-to-day as much because it is sort of even still sometimes a taboo.

It's a little taboo, yeah.

It's so fun.

I love it.

Yeah.

So they, um, so for example, they've gotten uh people to go into MRIs and orgasm and like either masturbating or getting their partners.

But but MRIs just is like fun details.

Have you ever had one?

An MRI, yes.

Yeah.

So it's loud.

Yes.

Yes.

It's a very weird experience.

It's a weird experience.

It'd be really hard to orgasm.

So hard?

Are you kidding me?

Not to have it.

And also, like, it's like, do you get any like simulation?

Like, you have not, you're in there alone with a loud sound.

Good luck using your imagination.

I like, you know what I mean?

And I know they're not like playing a video for you.

Like, it's like, you're really like on your own.

That's so sad.

That's so hard.

It's so hard.

And not only that, if in on an MRI, you know how you have have to be really still?

Yeah.

Movement is the killer of an MRI.

You need the image to be crystal clear.

And so researchers had to design a helmet, which

she called the researcher, Dr.

Nan Wise, she called it the like Hannibal Lecter happy helmet because I think it like it ended up like covering the face just so they like wouldn't move.

So they had to wear this helmet.

Then they had to like, you know, sort themselves out or they had a partner, partner do it.

But because it was so loud, the the scientists had to be like relaying information like she described it as like a deranged air like flight host

where she was like she was like your partner has started orgasming now

like your partner has stopped orgasming now

so

through studies like this yeah researchers have discovered that the orgasm is a big brain event.

There's a lot going on in your brain, which is how it feels, right?

So it's not that surprising.

And there's, and from what we can tell, the differences between like the male and female brain under orgasm, very similar.

Very similar.

There's other similarities going on, like when you look at the like nerves around the like vagina versus the penis.

So the biology

doesn't seem to be able to explain the huge differences.

One researcher did suggest that

because the penis is external, there's like more to play with, I guess.

Like, so you could like see, is this a sensitive area?

Is this a sensitive area?

And you can do that with the vagina, obviously.

It's just a little more difficult.

It is.

And, you know, and she was saying she studies people in the lab, and she's like, you know, sometimes we are like poking around the vagina and, you know, we'll be like, is this nice?

Is this nice?

And they just like can't find it on some.

It's kind of like a mess sometimes in there.

Like, and I'm not sure.

It's not for me.

Like, even with my own vagina, I'm like, it's a mess.

Cause I'm like, it's not a beautiful mess.

A beautiful mess.

I'm obsessed with it, but I'm happy to have it.

Like, literally, she's awesome.

I love her, but she's just, but, like, even sometimes with me, like, I had to learn, even when it's your own vagina, it's not like you know where your clit is immediately.

All of a sudden, you learn that

later in life.

Whereas, like, if you have a penis, you can see the penis.

Yeah, it's right there.

There's no, like, oh, wait, where is it?

There's no discovery.

Yes, that's right.

You know, some women I know have like maybe a smaller clitoris.

So, like, you have to like, and it might be like under folds.

So, you have to, like, actually move things around to then see it like yes it it's very interesting but i mean yeah so so so that tells us that like so maybe there's a little bit of biology there yeah but the fact that gay women can orgasm almost 90 of the time tells us that a huge chunk of this orgasm gap is social it's social and like actually surveys have been done of like college kids college like men and they know where the clitoris is they're clearly just not finding it they don't care You know, like, or some men, some men.

Like, this is definitely.

And there's surveys that have been done of women that, like, we prioritize male orgasm.

That's when sex ends.

And it's really sad that, like, that hasn't changed, right?

That hasn't changed.

No, it has not.

Yeah.

And that's, that sucks.

Like, I remember when I was in high school, I was like, the gender gap on many things.

I was like, we're so close to getting that, right?

You know, like, once we get the wages sorted,

equality equality is like in you know we got it we got this then we're both gonna come every time

and now I'm like no like no like it's still the primacy of the penis yep it's still sex is done when they come yep it's like it and and and it's all and you can see it in the data that like women will say like I prioritize them coming I know I know yeah like I've done that because they should be like you know okay I now it's your turn yeah that's how it should work but it's also like I think a lot of guys too are like scared to ask.

Like they're scared.

Well, that's just a sex thing anyway.

But like people are, it's a very hard conversation to have to be like, you know, you're not doing it.

Yeah.

Like you're, it's not working.

Yeah.

Like it ruins the like, it doesn't need to be

that way.

It could just be like, let's try it this way.

Let's like, it could be a fun thing.

Totally.

It doesn't need to be

like you're ragging on them or anything.

It's just like, hey, let's try this.

Let's try that.

Can I touch myself while we're doing this?

Like, this could be, yeah, it doesn't need to be negative.

I think one day, day, I think we'll be alive when the stats go up and the girlies are having their orgasms just as much.

And it's all, maybe we'll be alive for that.

That'd be such a treat.

That would be great.

That would be great.

I really thought, you know how, like, there was like big dick energy a couple of seconds ago?

I was like, what about like generous lover energy?

Yes.

What about, what about excited clit energy?

You know what I mean?

Like, what about

well-attended to clitoris energy?

Why not, or why are we not doing that?

You're like, that's what we're doing.

We can go through the celebrities in our lives.

Yeah.

Like, you know, Cadi Bay, well-attended clitoris.

You can tell.

I, like, you can tell.

No, there's been phases of my life.

If you scroll through my Instagram, you can tell when my clitoris was not well-attended to.

You can see that shit in my eyes.

Okay.

And then all of a sudden, it's like one day there's a little glisten back.

What happened?

And immediately.

You can see it in the eyes.

Okay.

So we're starting that as a hashtag.

You guys, I'll take that and run with it.

Oh, that's so good.

We just unintentionally answered one of my first questions, which was, let's talk about the orgasm, because that's one of the things that you've, you've dug into.

You've dug into so many things.

We need to dig into like,

there's a few things we need to dig into.

And I know that you're like,

you've done the dirty work.

You've done the research.

You've whatever.

And one of them is very relevant to me because

I was addicted for many years vaping.

Let's have the vaping conversation because how is how is your journey going great by the way?

What happened to me was I

like made an episode, a podcast episode being like, I'm quitting.

Yes.

And I woke up one day and I was like, I'm quitting.

I quit.

Then I went through a rough patch and I was like, there's no fucking way.

Like I, cause nicotine withdrawals are tough.

Yeah.

And it was like,

I just can't.

I need this.

Like, this is my pacifier.

I need this back.

So I started again.

Then a month ago, I quit again.

And I've gone a month.

Yeah.

You know, my goal was, okay, I'm going to quit by the time I'm like 25.

Cause you ultimately have to quit when you get pregnant, right?

So it's like, I don't want to deal with pregnancy and having to quit nicotine, which is so much more likely to be a lot of fun.

So

you got to like cut down in your cafe.

There's already a bunch of shit to do, right?

Many stimulants that I love will have to exit my life.

Alcohol as well.

Like I really can't handle all of this quitting at once.

So to not have a glass of wine on a Friday, wow, that's rough.

So anywho, tell me about, tell me everything about vaping because I'll tell you what my I always had excuses because when you're addicted to something, you always have excuses.

You're like, no, like, you know, it's, you know, it's not even like, there's no tar like with with the vape.

There's no tar.

Yeah.

There's nothing

combustible.

There's nothing combustible.

There's nothing burning.

You know, I remember somebody told me once.

Actually, I think it was like a guy I dated for like a month.

He was telling me because he's super addicted to the vape too.

Yeah.

And he's like, no, no, no, it's totally fine.

It's like the

vegetable glycerin, the base of it.

Yeah.

Is he said something about it being like water soluble.

So it like it won't.

Like it's vegan.

Yeah.

He's like, it's actually really organic.

So it's like chia seed vibes.

So it's totally fine.

It's like, it's super kale energy.

It's super airwan coated.

They'll start selling it at airwan soon.

It's organic variables.

Yeah.

Also, oh my God.

Wait, this is.

I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm so excited because

he was like basically saying like, oh, so it's safe.

Like it won't stick to anything you just exhale it it's fine yeah and then also something that a conclusion I came to was hold on a minute there are all these vapes that are supposed to help you quit nicotine and they're supposed to be completely safe but they're quite literally the exact same ingredients the only difference is there's no nicotine and it's like I get that that then helps you sort of like if your oral fixation is what you're the most sort of drawn to more than even the nicotine itself see for me it was always nicotine as a stimulant.

Like, I think it helps me.

Yeah.

But they're marketing these alternative vapes with no nicotine as being a healthy alternative.

And it's like, this is still you inhaling something.

Yeah.

So what's the difference there?

And there's flavors involved here.

And I actually tried one of those once and I will not say the name.

It made my lungs feel very weird.

Oh, interesting.

And I did not, like, it made me feel like heavy.

And I was like, this I don't like.

And I immediately stopped because I was like, I do not like this.

But I was like, anyway, so all of this rambling to say

what's going on what's going on with the vape okay like because honestly if somebody were to tell me it's actually totally fine I'd be like amazing I'm gonna I'm gonna fucking vape then like I would literally if someone told me right now okay it's totally safe I'd be like peace out I would get prep I would literally wait I would have my babies so that you know because I was whatever and then I would then vape for the remainder of my life.

So please tell me everything.

Yeah.

Okay.

Unfortunately, I'm not going to tell you that they're totally safe.

But I think a lot of the like confusion out there is because

of as like the vast majority of data out there shows that vaping is safer than smoking.

But that is because like smoking cigarettes is so bad.

Like I feel like like

we sort of missed out on how bad it was because already by the time we were sort of coming into our own, like a lot, there'd been all these like ad campaigns of like how bad it is, and you know, it's we've just sort of forgotten.

But one academic told me that, like, cigarette smoking, it's kind of like you know, it's a bit of a cartoon example, but it's kind of the equivalent of like putting your mouth over like a car, like exhaust fumes, and just being like, Yeah, you know, like the amount of cancers that it caused, I think it's like one in three deaths from cancer in the US can be directly caused by smoking, like directly contributed to smoking.

Um, it's it's crazy how bad, like it's a, it's crazy that it's legal, but it's so bad for you.

Yep.

And so to say that something is safer than smoking, it's like saying like, you know, like being, you know, smoking is being like hit by a truck and then like dragged for 10 miles.

Yes.

Yes.

Vaping is like being hit by a jeep, you know, and you're not dragged, but like, so, so that's one thing.

So I think like in the UK, for example, there's this big push to like use e-cigarettes to quit smoking because that is still considered safer.

Yep.

The vast majority of studies.

Although I will say, like, there was a study that came out recently that kind of just otherwise, but I think going back to our point of like, you look at the data, that's what it suggests.

Okay, so given that, so if you're currently smoking cigarettes and want a way to quit and think vaping might help you, yeah, I think the data suggests that's a good idea.

Yep.

But vaping compared to nothing compared to air, beautiful, beautiful air.

Yes.

This is where we're getting, this is where the French is going to get into trouble.

Yes.

No, I need this.

I need to hear this.

Continue.

Yeah.

So for a long time, and I almost feel like it was probably like, you know, really in the last like 10 years or whatever.

So first there was just like all this talk.

It's safe.

It's safe.

It's safe.

And I feel like that's when a bunch of people started taking it.

Yep.

And then the data starts coming out.

Even though there were always academics that were like, look, it's probably not great.

Like you are still breathing crap into your lungs.

Nothing, anytime you're inhaling anything that's not clean air, it's probably bad.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

And so, and so we now, so for example, uh, we talked to this researcher who had like interviewed something like 3,000

kids who are like, I don't know, kids,

late teens, early 20s.

and found that if you vaped, you were way more likely to have symptoms like coughing and wheezing.

Two-thirds of the people in their sample had symptoms like that.

And the researcher was like, this is not normal.

Like a 19-year-old wheezing, yeah you know that's not that's not good like that's a bad vibe that's a bad vibe like that that's not doing good things to your lungs and like and it's sort of you know you can deal with coughing it's not great yeah wheezing you know but it's sort of thought that these problems that it's causing to your lungs are like the canary in the coal mine like it only if you keep vaping you keep it suggests that something's going on and your lungs are having trouble yep and it can't if you keep vaping keep bringing that stuff in it doesn't get better yep and then we have data like on the flavors for example.

So the flavor, the weird thing with the flavors is that, like, a lot of them have been approved for safety for eating.

Like, that's

so, like, um, that's what's wild is that that's where most of the flavors come from.

It's like the like cinnamon aldehyde is like the chemical they use for cinnamon vapes, which I don't think is a very popular flavor.

By the way, horrible flavor.

Ew.

Who's smoking that?

Y'all are weird for that.

Okay, yeah.

Ew?

Exactly.

So I'll tell you, I haven't smoked that that one so we're gonna continue exactly exactly so i feel so bad for scientists they're like we finally worked out cinnamon aldehyde and then everyone's like fuck that we don't even like that flavor it's like i like the melon one or the lychee one i stopped like yeah so that's how they started getting the flavors they were like oh we already know like it gives whatever this chemical gives like a cherry like to your cherry ripes or whatever like what if you just inhaled it and no one had really done the studies for inhalation they were just like it's safe to eat yeah but we know that like our stomach has acids.

Like our stomach evolved to eat weird, potentially dangerous shit.

1,000%.

Yeah, right.

You're eating berries and you're like, yeah, it wasn't great, but just like, get it out.

You'll be fine.

But your lungs like weren't designed to like shove, you know,

like it weren't, they haven't evolved for that sort of industrial style clean.

Totally.

And we already have examples where stuff that has been safe to eat, we know is not good for your lungs.

And so the example scientists like to use is diacetal, which is like the buttery flavor that I don't, it shouldn't be put in vapes because we know it's really harmful.

But it's put on popcorn.

It gives like the buttery taste of popcorn.

And as far as we know, really safe, like very grammy.

But then in a popcorn factory a couple of decades ago,

this is how scientists were like desperate to like, do we know anything about its inhalation?

So popcorn factory where they're making their diacetal is going into the popcorn, but there was an accident and a bunch of people inhaled a ton of it.

And a lot of them, their lungs just like fucked up a couple metered like lung transplants as a result and that's like the and it's called popcorn lung which maybe you've heard of and which sort of sounds like oh your lungs turning into popcorns but it's actually from this popcorn factory oh i didn't know that interesting okay yeah yeah and so that was like the the first example where they're where you know we know that diacetol is bad for your lungs and there have been examples of people who have inhaled it in diacetol in vapes and then it hasn't been good for their lungs.

So I mean just generally and then then the propylene glycol, which is the stuff that makes it like fog, that makes it like, it's like a little fog machine.

It is actually the same chemical that's in theater smoke machines.

Oh, God.

The amount of years that I inhaled that is so bad.

Okay, continue, continue.

It is tell me the truth, right?

I mean, it's like fascinating from like a chemical perspective that you're like, oh, that stage like fog machine.

It's like, oh, my God, I'm in like a fucking Halloween haunted house.

My lungs literally for years look like a Halloween haunted house.

That is exactly for better or for worse.

Let me tell you, I was having fun rolling my O's, but I was really like, but it can't be good.

Yeah, you know, or like you're out of club or whatever, and they're putting, yeah, putting it in a low-let's, it's like a rave in my lungs.

Yes, okay, yeah, yeah, that's right.

And there's evidence that's also not great for your lungs, you know.

And they even have like studies from theater workers who have had to like smoke, like inhale a ton of this stuff and

things like that.

So we know all these, these can't, they're not, they're not good.

They're not good.

And then there's also some upcoming research into nicotine itself whether that because there is that there's been a debate for a long time yes about whether nicotine is even that bad for you

because like it's addicting and it's the reason as you as you well know like that you want to keep coming back yep so in that way it's bad because it's like bringing along being addicted to anything is not good but well yeah i mean i guess it's a philosophical domain that is because see it's funny you say that because that was something that i like did research on i always would do research and like cherry pick the the studies or things that I would look at like to like allow me to continue vaping.

Interesting.

Like I would literally cherry pick the self article.

It was, no, I fully know what I was doing, but I would be like, I read one article once that nicotine as a chemical, it's the same as caffeine.

It might be a little bit more addicting, but when it comes to like its risks, I guess,

it was equal.

So there's these, so now there's this new, that was kind of how I had understood it as well.

And then when we did this episode and dove in, that was like kind of for a long time.

And because it's so hard to study, because most of our nicotine research comes from smokers.

And so you're like, how are you supposed to know what caused the damage?

Like, the nicotine in the tobacco or everything else that you're smoking?

Exactly.

Like when you burn the tobacco.

And so now they're doing research and it's, it's really at its early stages.

So what we've known for a while is that smokers have a high risk of getting depression.

And for a long time, there was this question of like correlation causation, like, which, which is basically this question of like, what, what did the

chicken or the egg?

Did the smoking cause the depression?

Were these people already likely to like?

Are depressive people less likely to care about their well-being, therefore, smoke

or smoke to already help with the symptoms of depression?

Like, it just, like, wasn't clear whether nicotine was, then they started to see the same pattern with vapors.

So, vapors were more likely to get depression.

Again, you have the same, like, what was going on.

So, now to answer that question, science often uses like rodent studies, basically, to try and find, like, a mechanism, like, how, how on earth could nicotine, like what, what do we know about nicotine in the brain

or in the rat brain?

How could it cause depression?

Does that even make sense?

You know, this early research, and the problem is it's in rats, it's not in humans, but

what they're finding is that like there are some areas in the brain, like the reward center that like makes things feel good.

You know, when you smell a flower and you're like, that was nice.

Yeah.

Like nicotine does seem to be affecting the reward center in these rats.

Yep.

So

that makes sense.

It makes sense.

And so there is this question that maybe for some people, it's sort of like dampening your enjoyment is sort of the theory, which we know is a symptom of depression, is that like things that used to give you joy or that perhaps give other people joy don't you're like whatever.

Yep.

And so that, you know, so that's kind of where the research is at, which is like, we're seeing this trend, we see it in the rats.

And we'll have to wait and see.

But I don't want to oversell it that nicotine is going to cause everyone's depression because that's clearly not the case.

But

we're just seeing that pattern.

And so it's just another reason, I think, if people want to reduce consumption.

The few times I've quit

insane depression.

I have, I'm a very anxious person anyway.

So I think anytime anything changes, my anxiety is just the first thing to react.

Right.

But horrible anxiety, like the worst, that was really bad.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, no, it was really bad.

And like mood swings and like all these issues.

And then, you know, now I'm, my nicotine consumption, if you were to like look at how much I'm consuming now versus when I was using the vape, it's much less.

And I do feel much more emotionally

stable.

Great.

Which is interesting.

And my parents noticed that too.

Like, they're like, oh my God, when you're not

like, I always would get so mad at my mom because she'd be like, I swear to God, the vape makes you like a wreck.

Like it makes you a wreck.

And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about?

Like, I've been vaping for since I was like 16, bitch, me, like, being so mean to my mom.

And it's like, because I'm vaping.

Because I'm vaping.

It's like, I'm being rude to her because I'm like, so like strong on the shit.

What are you saying?

What are you saying?

I should have emotionally.

I think it definitely made me, or I noticed that sort of,

I don't know.

I think there is an emotional impact.

Yeah.

Overall, the consensus is we don't actually know that much about vaping, but we know that we shouldn't be doing it.

All the signs are pointing to if you cannot do it, that's great.

Yeah.

And the less that you do it, the the better.

Right.

Have you done anything about alcohol?

Yeah.

Is there any way?

Is there any way like to drink alcohol?

Because I've seen so many contradicting things.

Like

there's been the study, a glass of red wine every night.

It doesn't hurt.

I've seen that.

Okay.

But then I've also seen like tequila with lemon.

Totally healthy.

That's actually totally fine.

And my mom was like, my mom texted me that once and was like, oh my God, see, this is what you order.

So it's totally fine.

Tequila soda with lime and/it's totally fine.

And I was like, Yay!

Or, like, you know, um, only on the weekends.

It's like, if you only have it a few times a week, right?

Like, if you save it for special occasions, it's totally fine.

What are your thoughts on drinking?

Yeah, so the alcohol episode was one that like actually made me change my habits and made me change the way I drink.

Yeah.

It's actually kind of like a really interesting science story of like, I don't know if it's just an interesting story.

Yeah.

Of why we thought alcohol was good for your heart.

So basically researchers like did these studies where they got, you know, it's like what if someone were like, how would you run a study to find out whether alcohol was good for your heart?

You're like, we get 10,000 people, whatever.

We ask like, how much alcohol do you drink?

And then you follow them for a bit of time and you see whose heart like gets the body.

Looks the best.

Yeah.

And looks the best.

And what they kept finding is that like the people who drank alcohol seemed to have better hearts than people who drank no alcohol whatsoever.

Interesting.

And so they were like, this is amazing.

Like, you know, I think maybe the first studies were to do with wine, but then later studies came out about like all the alcohols.

And they were like, oh my gosh.

Like, and then they start telling this story.

Antioxidants, antioxidants must be good for your heart.

Now we have the mechanism we're in.

And then some researchers were like, wait a second, wait a second.

Like, who are these people who aren't drinking any alcohol at all?

And this was like pre the non-alcoholic era, you know, and you might think it would be, and I would have still thought like, no, like maybe it's like my body is a temple, super healthy.

Yeah.

But it turned out that the group of people who weren't drinking any alcohol at all were actually people who were sick.

And their doctors had said, you need to stop drinking alcohol.

Right.

And so then there was this big like battle in science.

Like maybe it's a little bit good for you, even if you wink, blah, blah, blah.

But now I think that the thinking is it's not really that good for for your heart.

And it was just this, like, this, like, you know, science progresses.

Science progresses.

And then, but what we do know is that it is a carcinogen and it does increase your risk of cancer.

I didn't know it was a carcinogen.

Yeah.

And it's just crazy.

Yeah.

I should have known that.

The breakdown products of alcohol can like muck up your DNA and like, and it causes, and that is what, because like when you get older, people you love start getting cancer.

Yep.

And

that's what made me really cut down my drinking.

I was like, because we do so much to prevent cancer.

Like, you know,

like, I'll go do exercise.

I'll do this.

I'll do that.

And then I was like, but I was still drinking a target.

Totally.

And I was like, oh, what am I doing?

Like, I don't need to be drinking a target.

Yes.

Yeah.

I'd also like, I mean, at least for me, it makes me anxious and depressed.

Like, it fucks with my brain.

And like when I'm, you know.

You want to create like a crazy thing?

We did an episode on hangovers.

So what was on my list?

Oh, right.

Yeah,

I think the most surprising

episode we've done.

Yep.

Wick, what do you think is the cause of hangovers?

My guess would be

that

your

liver

is

processing.

I have no idea, by the way.

So this is so random.

So like, this is my guess.

You are like, we did, we did like boxies on the street.

Yes.

Like box bombs.

And like everyone had the same answer.

Really?

Did not involve the liver.

Dehydration.

Oh, but that's.

You're kidding.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

But that's what, like, I think a lot of listeners, that's what I thought it was, dehydration.

That's the thinking.

That's what everyone thinks is that it's being dehydrated.

You're being dehydrated.

Yeah, because, because

alcohol, you know, there's this story that alcohol is a diuretic makes you pee and then you lose a lot of water and you become dehydrated.

But actually, anyone who has had a hangover knows about or thought they knew about this dehydration thing.

Like if you ever, I definitely have had like a terrible hangover and I'm like, before we did this study, and I'm like, I got to drink water.

I've got to drink water.

And like, I am peeing like water.

Like, it is like pee clear.

You're like, oh, fucking bumpy.

It's clear.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, clearly my body is rehydrated and whatever.

And I still have a terrible hangover.

So the current thinking is that it's actually caused when your body breaks down alcohol.

It produces like toxic, like the breakdown products are kind of like little toxics, like just a little bit toxic.

And it creates this inflammatory response because your body like has this immune system where it's like, what's all these toxins doing in my body?

And the immune system comes,

and it starts to be like, get rid of all these toxins, creates inflammation.

And that's what's thought to cause the terrible headaches.

This is just like the real hangover effects where you're just like, oh, like brain fog, stuff like that.

It's inflammation.

That makes complete sense.

Okay, wait.

This is completely, this, this is the last topic that I need, because this is so me.

I cannot,

we cannot skip, skip this one gossiping i need the science on gossip is it am i allowed i'm such a gossiper i am but i'm i believe yeah that it's healthy like that's my belief yeah because to an extent i think that it's healthy when it's done responsibly like when it's not just like when it's not hard to see his hat the other day or like it's just mean and bitch it's it's when it's like for the sake of

analysis Well, just let's discuss gossip.

Like, I think a lot of people will say gossip is all bad.

You know, it's like that's a negative thing.

There's nothing redeeming there.

And then some people will be like, no, this is how we connect as human beings.

We must, we should gossip all the time.

But I don't think that that's probably where the science lands.

Like, what, what's the, what's the ruling on gossip?

Oh, that's, I mean, that kind of is where the science lands.

So we know.

Interesting.

Okay.

We know that gossip can be harmful, you know, particularly in like high school, middle school.

We've all been there.

It's it can be really nasty.

It can ostracize.

It can, you know, if you're the target of gossip, it can

be bad of mental health issues.

There's also like a lot of studies done in the workplace, which I hadn't thought of as like a gossip mongery place, but of course it totally is.

Yeah.

I mean, there's studies that show that like gossipy workplaces, people tend to be less creative, less happy, you know, and we, and we've all been there.

Totally.

And it is, it's like stifling to be in a gossipy workplace.

But then the the positives so interestingly like there was this this really fun study that got people a spanish study that got people to um they were scanning their brains i think it was an eeg and gave them either um statements that were gossip or statements that were just like trivia right i think they started a sentence that was like the highest mountain in germany is blah and then they said how interested are you in this answer yep and people you know would answer whatever very interested not interested at all and then for the gossip ones i think that there was one that was like, who did Barack Obama have an affair with?

Yes, totally.

And people were like, you know, not interested.

Like, I don't, that's not me.

I'm not interested in that.

Then he went back to them like a week later and was like, so do you remember what the highest mountain in Germany is?

People tended to be like,

no.

And they're like, do you remember the answer to the Obama question?

Which was Beyonce.

Yes.

Such a stupid

rumor in Europe.

Totally.

And so we know that like we remember this content also when he looked back at the brain data he could see that people's brains sort of lit up they were it's like the brains were giving them away the brains were more excited about the gossip too even though people said like I don't I don't care about that like I don't so they're morally like I don't care about that but you've done they're like googling it the second they're out of the MRI scanner there is something about gossip that we love yep and there is a bonding component to it without a doubt like you meet new friends You know who know your other it's like a connector Yep, you know, you can feel that love in the room when you've got some great story about a friend It may not be bitchy it may yeah, so there is like a bonding component and so I think like where our episode and landed and maybe it's where the sites landed is like if you could gossip in a way that isn't gonna hurt someone else.

Yes.

If you could be a little careful with how you tell a story.

Yes.

You know, then you could get the benefits of gossiping.

Yes.

With us.

Yes.

Without us news.

Yes.

Yes.

And also, there was this fun study that I think tracked middle schoolers and that said that if

someone is saying really negative gossip, which really only happens in middle school, I feel like when you grow up, like you abandon those friends pretty quickly.

But

if the next person in line, like say someone was like,

oh my gosh, like Jeremy, like Jeremy's pants today look really stupid.

And then the next person said, oh, I actually think the pants are cool.

That was like the fizzle.

Like the gossip ended.

You needed that second person to be like, oh, yeah, him and his stupid pants.

And then it was like wildfire.

Yes.

So you can be like the savior of the gossip.

If someone's just saying something mean, if you like punch it down, it's like, oh, not a good story.

Like, that's true.

So that's what the study felt.

So you could be the savior of the gossip.

Or you could not.

No,

I believe in like, I do believe though that for the, for the, for somebody who is is like me, for example, who loves gossip, like I do, although I'm so,

so protected about it.

Like I have like four people in my life, maybe five that I gossip with.

What's the best bit of gossip?

Yeah,

I like, I am so good about, I'll share some gossip with you after, I'll come up with something.

Um, but it's like, I never share it on the internet.

A lot of people go on their podcast and are like, let's gossip.

It's like, no, don't do that.

That's like the worst thing you could do for society.

Okay.

So, um, you know, it's like a handful of people only when I know that it will never get back to the person.

Like,

and that's fine.

And then, also, it's not all, I, but I have noticed that even though I'm somebody who's prone to gossip, enjoys gossip, loves gossip, believes in gossip, thinks it's crucial for society, I also know that

you have to, it can be negative even for the person who loves it and who wants to discuss it if it's

if it's not done right.

Like, you

don't want to be like

off other people's pain as well.

Like, I don't think.

It has to be fair.

Yeah, that does, and that's like, that's like not a good side to the soul.

No, you're not really going to feel great after just, you got to, yeah.

It has to be in good faith.

Like, you have to, like, if you're going to be shitting on someone, they have to have shit first.

Like, so it's like, you know what I'm saying?

Like, they need to have like done something genuinely bad.

Give me that on a t-shirt.

I know.

That's, okay, that's so easy.

I'm going to, now, if you guys make anybody out there merch companies, I'm going to be making that.

It'll be really expensive, but I'll make sure just because, yeah, but get ready.

But

I just remembered another fun fact from that episode, which is that

men gossip basically as much as women do.

Whoa.

Yeah.

So they've done these studies where they like put microphones on people and then put switch them like on and off.

This is why we love science.

We can objectively measure this stuff.

Yes.

At At different times, like they, and

they find, and so they find that men, men do it too.

Men do it too.

And the definition of gossip is, it's a very loose one.

It's just talking about someone when they're not there.

Yep.

So it's not necessarily mean.

Yep.

But men, women, we all do it.

I refuse to date a guy who will not gossip with me.

Like, I'm actually not kidding.

That is a deal breaker.

Like, if there's, because if they're going to be annoying about it, like, no, I'm like, if, if I'm, like, if I want to be like, oh, like, this, you know,

this girl was like so rude to me today and she did this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I need, I refuse

to go on a second date with a man who, and I don't really go on dates.

It's not very Gen Z.

But anyway, I refuse to like

entertain somebody who will not be like, wait, like, what was she wearing?

Like, I, I need a guy who meets there.

We gotta have fun with it.

No, I need a guy who will meet me there.

And it's true.

There are,

it's not as like stereotypically, it's a woman thing but if you get if you like allow

everyone gossip it's everyone it's it really is it's really not a girl thing no it's not it's i think yeah i think maybe some of the studies show that like sometimes women do mean a gossip on it but everyone's talking about everyone else otherwise what are you gonna talk about like actually wait actually what else is there to talk about no i'm not kidding what else is there i think about that sometimes like yeah you can talk about art you can talk about yourself you can talk about music you can talk about, you know, um,

you can talk about philosophy, but when you, but okay, but that's that's like, oh, okay, great.

Now you have an hour used up.

What else is there?

Now there's gossip.

Yeah.

Sorry, that's when the gossip comes in.

Um, okay, so that's great.

So now I know that you can feel good about it.

I can feel good about it.

Science approves of your, of your gossip.

Okay, so I can't vape, but I can have a glass of wine every once in a while and I can fucking gossip.

Yeah.

So life is good.

And you know what?

And, and,

and, and you can orgasm.

I I know, I was going to say, and I can orgasm every fucking time.

I just, as long as, no, you just need, oh my God.

Not that, and I should say that there are other ways to enjoy

sex and big with each other.

You don't know, not so much pressure on the orgasm.

No, I, I'm sorry, but I.

If they're doing it, you can do it.

No, I, I've, as, like, you know, like, there's a phase, I think, in every young woman's life where it's like,

damn, it's like not happening, huh?

Like, you're like, look, I will say, like, yeah, it took, it took mid-20s before I was even horny.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was, which I actually, you know, it was so coming on the show, I was like, oh, what, what is something that, like, I, that I think is an important message that we can't talk about enough.

Yes.

Because there's so much pressure, particularly in high school, maybe in college too, about like, oh, she's frigid.

She's frigid.

Oh, I was so frigid.

You know, but were you frigid or were you just not horny?

No, I wasn't.

I wasn't.

And also, I, I wasn't, I don't think I was, it was not possible for me because you can't mentally get there unless you feel safe.

But I remember like sitting around

when I lived in a share house in Sydney with amazing

three other women.

And we were sitting, and I guess I would have been in my mid-20s then.

And they were all talking about the first time they masturbated.

And one of them was like, I never remember a time I didn't masturbate.

Whoa.

They were like, I kind of remember rubbing up against stuff when I was three years old.

Like,

I didn't even think about it as a masturbate.

Another one said when I was 13, that's when I was like, I was like going down in there.

And they turned to me and I was like, um,

I haven't done that.

I so get it because I didn't until I did.

Okay, wait, no.

For me, I, I came

from,

like, my first orgasm was from a guy.

Yeah.

Like, doing it for me.

Yeah.

Like, my first boyfriend.

And I was like, what?

Yeah.

And I had never, I didn't even know it was crazy.

Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

And no one's like talking to you about it.

No one's like giving you advice.

And I'm like with guys, it's not like right out there.

So you have to have like an urge from within.

And I just like didn't have you don't know what you're missing.

Yeah, until my mid-20s.

And so like, I really wish the conversation, instead of it being like frigid or whatever, or whatever fucking words they're using to like judge women and girls who don't want to have sex,

it's just like, do you want sex right now?

You don't have to want sex right now.

You know, like you're 13, you're 16, you're 19.

Maybe you're just not horny.

And like, yes, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

And so, like, whatever.

I mean, when I was 25, I was like, fucking awesome.

I know, I love that.

I, I'm so of that.

Like,

it's because it's not,

it's not even good when you're younger anyway.

Like, it's not that it's not, okay.

So, like, for example, it's always like, oh, like, have sex.

Like, you know, you want to like have sex as soon as you can this was like the belief when you're you know in high school or whatever it's like right have sex now so that it you can get good at it and then it whatever but it's like you're you're so you know you if you that's just not how you if you're not feeling horny you don't need to do anything no yeah oh my god i could talk to you all day there's so you have to come on again i would love that

please like because i'm not kidding we could go down

every there's we just scratched the surface today yeah that was amazing thank you so much for having me.

This is so much fun.

The best ever.

No, you actually have to come on again.

I would love that.

Okay, great.

Yeah.

So that was me chatting with Emma Chamberlain for her podcast, Anything Goes.

I hope you enjoyed it.

If you did, let us know.

We're on Instagram, science underscore VS.

I'm on TikTok at Wendy Zuckerman.

Come say hello.

We'll be back next week with regular science verses.

I'm Wendy Zuckerman.

Back to you next time.

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