Why are drug dealers putting fentanyl in everything? (Part 1)

Hi, I'm PJ Vote.

This is Search Engine.

Each week, we answer a question we have about the world.

No question too big, no question too small.

This week on the show, we're tackling a very basic question about a very serious subject, fentanyl.

Our question, why are drug dealers poisoning their own customers by sneaking fentanyl into other drugs?

We'll get into it after these ads.

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Welcome to Search Engine.

I'm PJ Vote.

There have been all these stories about people dying from fentanyl-laced drugs.

I read these stories in the news.

I just hear them in my community.

Fentanyl-laced cocaine, Xanax, synthetic weed.

I recently read about fentanyl showing up in store-bought weed gummies outside Philadelphia, although the tests there seem a bit inconclusive.

But the question I've always had seemed kind of like a simple one, maybe bordering on naive.

Why would a drug dealer do this?

Like, why would you sneak a very lethal drug into drugs that are much less lethal, or in some cases, not lethal at all?

I want to say, I am a sophisticated enough adult to understand that drug dealers are not like the most well-regulated or universally altruistic class of business person.

But still, even an illegal business is a a business.

What kind of business survives while killing its own customers?

It didn't even seem to make sense in ruthless capitalism logic.

We got an answer, which we're going to share with you, but we're going to tell you the story a little bit differently than how we normally would.

We're going to tell you the answer from two perspectives.

Episode one, the undercover reporter.

We'll speak with a journalist who's covered this for years, who will explain how fentanyl became a street drug in the first place.

And then episode two, the dealer.

We'll talk to a person who's used fentanyl, who sold it to others, and who will explain how the strange logic that drives his world has now infiltrated ours.

Let's begin.

The Belgian doctor who invented fentanyl had a reputation that almost could not be further from his terrifying drug.

drug paul jansen widely considered to be one of the most important pharmaceutical researchers of all time janssson died in 2003 but this is him being interviewed on what is basically belgian pbs towards the end of his life talking about his long career

he's really he was really a genius he invented like over a hundred medicines i spoke to writer ben westhoff author of fentanyl inc about janssson's legacy He told me that Janssen actually invented fentanyl a long time ago, back in 1959.

He was trying to find something that was better for hospital procedures like open heart surgery.

What made fentanyl superior to morphine is that it comes on faster and it goes away faster.

So people who are, say, in open heart surgery don't have to be there for as long.

It doesn't cause nausea.

And

it's basically kind of the perfect hospital drug.

This feels like a, it feels like I'm like asking a question about a musician or something, but like, does he have any other hits that I've heard of?

Yeah.

There's like a diarrhea medicine, I think.

Emodium?

A huge fan of Emodium.

Yep.

Emodium.

That's him.

Wow.

Yeah, Emodium has done some good work with me.

I feel more grateful to him by the minute.

Paul Janssen, the man who invented the drug that, according to some studies, kills more American adults under the age of 45 than guns, COVID, or cancer, in his lifetime, he was regarded as kind of a medical saint.

And for decades, it looked like fentanyl would just be another feather in his already pretty feathery cap.

Ben says Janssen never dreamed that his drug would play a role in taking so many lives.

We couldn't imagine it.

But then again, neither could the U.S.

government.

What's really strange is that nobody saw this coming at all.

In fact, I found this DEA report from 2015 that said basically when it came to fentanyl, you know, there's nothing to see here.

In 2015?

Yeah, as recently as 2015.

They said that it was so potent that users just didn't want it.

The risk of death was too high that we didn't have to worry about it.

And it was only one year later that fentanyl was killing more people than any other drug in the U.S.

The DEA missed fentanyl.

They did not see it coming.

According to their estimates, only 700 people died from fentanyl overdose in 2014.

But very soon after, the problem would be clear.

In 2016, according to the NIH, almost 20,000 people would die from synthetic opioid overdoses.

Most of that fentanyl.

What happened?

At the time, it was a mystery.

But one thing that the DEA may have missed in 2015 was that while yes, fentanyl was a terrible drug for consumers, deadly with a short-acting high, it was an incredibly attractive drug for dealers because it was just so cheap to make.

Fentanyl is much cheaper than heroin because it's synthetic.

It's made in a lab.

So heroin, of course, comes from the opium poppy.

And to grow poppies, you need a lot of land, time, and it's much more expensive and it's much more

subject to law enforcement discovering it whereas with fentanyl you can just make it in some clandestine lab so it's much cheaper to make and at the same time it's much more potent and so it's just incredibly profitable

most products succeed because there's a big consumer demand for them not because there's a big producer supply of them But you can flip that logic if the product you have a big supply of happens to be incredibly addictive.

For the people supplying fentanyl, the drug had another advantage besides just being cheap.

It was that much of the supply was being produced in a country where it was actually sort of quasi-legal, China.

China was the principal supplier of fentanyl to the United States starting in 2013.

Not long after, the Chinese government officially banned fentanyl, but they were slow to ban analogs of the drug.

Basically, slight tweaks to the recipe that added a molecule here or there, but left the basic chemical structure of fentanyl intact.

And so there's this constant cat-and-mouse game in China when these chemists would create a new type of fentanyl, a new fentanyl analog, and then the government would ban it.

And so they'd stop making that and then they'd tweak the chemical a little bit more to have a new legal variation.

And so the result is a bunch of gray market chemicals that are legal in China but illegal in the U.S.

In 2018, Ben gets curious about those Chinese labs, and he decides he wants to try to visit one.

Which begs the question, how does an American living in St.

Louis find his way into a Chinese fentanyl lab?

Obviously, he begins to search on one of the darkest, least understood parts of the internet.

This guy actually had a LinkedIn profile.

The fentanyl dealer had a LinkedIn profile?

Yeah, you know, he didn't advertise fentanyl on his page.

He offered all these other chemicals and he did these kind of custom synthesis for whatever you wanted.

And so I asked if he sold these different fentanyl analogs and he did.

And so I met him at this train station in Shanghai and he spent like most of the day vetting me.

You know, he actually asked me point blank if I was a journalist.

What did you, what was your story?

You know, if somebody asks you three times if you're a journalist, you have to tell the truth.

Yeah, I mean, I was trying to think, what's a drug dealer name?

And so for some reason, I came up with Johnny Webster was my name.

And I said I was from New York, which is also a lie.

And basically,

to not get too far over my head, what I said was that I wasn't actually the drug dealer, but my friend was.

And I just happened to be in China.

And my drug dealing friend asked me if I could visit this lab to do some reconnaissance for him.

And if this lab lived up to our quality standards, then he would make a big buy from them.

And that was enough to get you a meeting?

Yeah, I mean, we met at this train station, and then he said, well, we're going to go to my office.

Which states of USA do you come from?

New York.

New York.

New York.

New York is very beautiful.

Ben secretly recorded his meeting with the guy who ran the lab.

And his office was actually his apartment where he lived with his family.

His wife and daughter were out, but it was in the penthouse of this really nice high-rise in a gated community.

It's Michael's.

I work at Michael's.

Oh, it's your home.

Okay.

Very nice.

The lab is about 30 miles away from here in Mingham Province.

And he said 30 miles away.

And,

you know, he talked and he showed me the list of chemicals and the prices.

And then he still wasn't sure about me, so he took me out to lunch.

Where'd you guys go?

Well, he actually asked if I wanted to go to McDonald's.

I asked my driver to take her to the McDonald's.

Oh, okay.

Because you're an American.

He's like, it's American.

They must love McDonald's.

And I said, well, oh, no, I do.

I like China's food.

You like Chinese food?

Yeah, I like Chinese food, yes.

They're good.

But McDonald's is okay.

It's your choice.

They do end up going to a local Chinese restaurant.

In China, these establishments are called restaurants.

Which was very good.

And we just sort of shot the shit, and somewhere along the way, he decided I passed muster.

And so he called his driver who came and picked me up.

This guy didn't speak any English, the driver, and he was kind of muscle-bound.

He looked like he might be the guy who would break my kneecaps if they found out I was lying or something.

But finally, we were in kind of like the deep Agcerbs, I guess you would call them.

And

we arrived to this really bland, generic-looking business park, a new construction building, and we went inside.

You know, it could have been anything in there.

What it reminded me most of was just like a high school chemistry lab.

It was not like super sort of fancy, sophisticated, but you know, it wasn't like underground either.

It was all totally functional.

And like, did it feel like being in a place that felt dangerous and illicit, or did it feel like being at somebody's job?

I would say a little bit of both.

Like, it was the middle of winter and it was really cold, but all the windows were open and the smell was really strong.

You know, it didn't seem quite professional in that way.

I had to like, I mean, even he, the chemist, his name was Dawson Lee, he pulled his shirt up over his nose.

What Ben means is that the chemist was using his t-shirt as protection instead of a mask or respirator.

You know, and I was like, oh, that doesn't quite seem right.

You know, and it became really clear that I didn't know what I was talking about.

And I think they just,

you know, they talked it up to, I would give my friend the report of this place, and then I would get back with them and give them my real order.

Ben obviously did not place a real order, which didn't seem to bother the chemist.

Ben says the chemist still sends him cake emojis on Skype on his birthday.

During Ben's China visit, he ended up visiting several fentanyl producers.

Each time, he found companies that seemed to toe the line between legitimate business and underground drug operation.

They sold other chemicals, not just fentanyl, and they wouldn't announce that they were selling fentanyl on their website.

But in conversation, they were happy to make a deal.

Ben thinks that part of the reason he was welcomed with such open arms was because it wasn't so unusual for Americans to show up doing what he was pretending to do, showing up to buy fentanyl from Chinese labs.

Although the more typical route for fentanyl is to go from China to the Mexican drug cartels, who then smuggle it into the States.

So mostly what you have coming across the border are these cartel affiliates who are bringing fentanyl, heroin, cocaine, and meth.

More deadly fentanyl is being seized at our border than ever before.

Often

in secret compartments and vehicles.

Agents found the drugs hidden in the gas tank and a spare tire.

Trucks that are bringing other products.

A 26-year-old man attempted to smuggle the drugs into the U.S.

with a produce tractor trailer.

The driver, driver, of course, some is taken across by drones.

There's underground tunnels.

You know, I've heard about people taking the drugs on surfboards, like around the wall in San Diego.

Wait, they surf around the border wall?

Yeah, I was actually there

right at the coast where the border wall ends, and it really doesn't go out into the water very far at all.

It's like you could swim around it really easily.

This pipeline was reaching an American market full of consumers who had not initially wanted fentanyl, but would ultimately end up demanding large amounts of it.

And that demand would be there not because it had been stoked by Mexican drug cartels.

Those addicted users had been created by someone else.

After the break, the dealers, the sacklers, and a 5,000-year-old problem.

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Welcome back to the show.

There's this part of the story of the opioid epidemic that I feel like gets lost sometimes that I'm always trying to explain and can never quite articulate.

I want to try one more time now.

So, fentanyl, oxycontin, heroin, morphine, opium.

These drugs are all very similar.

They're chemical cousins.

If it's found in nature, it's called an opiate.

If it's made in the lab, an opioid.

We can call some of these drugs new, but human beings have been getting high off of opiates for over 5,000 years.

Since antiquity, we've known that if you dry the latex of poppy seeds, the same seeds you find on your bagel, there's a resin produced which can take away pain and induce euphoria.

And we've known that those highs can lead to tolerance, to addiction, to death.

Cleopatra is rumored to have killed herself with a drug cocktail containing opium.

The The Romans used it in poisons, so did the ancient Greeks.

Opiates relax you.

You die because your body forgets to regulate its breathing.

Dying because you're in such euphoria, your body stops seeking oxygen, is how Socrates may have left this earth, and it's how 80,000 Americans died last year.

Drugs stay the same.

Their effects are pretty consistent.

What changes is the stories we tell around them.

Stories about their usefulness, stories about their danger.

We can forget that these stories are in flux, are being contested, but they are.

Morphine was discovered in 1803, but it was replaced for a while by a better hospital painkiller from Bayer Pharmaceutical.

Heroin.

First synthesized in 1874, heroin was considered a good painkiller in the US before it was seen as an addictive street drug.

In the UK, a doctor might still prescribe heroin, controlled, monitored, to a kid with a broken bone.

what i'm trying to say is that when we decide if a drug is dangerous or not it's not just about the drug's inherent properties it's about whether our culture is telling the right story about it have we attached the proper warning label to this thing

what is so striking to me about our opioid epidemic that so many of us are dying from is that we're dying not because we invented something new and dangerous, but because we forgot or convinced ourselves or were convinced that something old and dangerous was actually new and safe.

Oxycontin, the painkiller that started the opioid crisis, was really just a stronger version of oxycodone, which has been around since 1916.

But what was really new about Oxycontin was the story it was wrapped in.

This is the part of all this I think most people are familiar with.

My favorite book about it is Patrick Rad and Keefe's Empire of Pain.

It's about not just the introduction of Oxycontin, but really how one family, the Sacklers, made billions of dollars by rewriting the story of the poppy seed.

Patrick Radenke tells the story of the Sacklers, owners of the privately held company Purdue Pharma.

Purdue formulated Oxycontin.

Crucially, according to Purdue, Oxycontin was not addictive.

This is a big deal because opioids have traditionally been some of the most addictive drugs mankind has synthesized.

To say that a new opioid painkiller could be both more powerful and less addictive than what preceded it is a huge deal.

Purdue claimed the key to all this was a time-release coating on the pill.

A time-release coating that made it so that it could not be abused.

Once you've found the right doctor and have told him or her about your pain, don't be afraid to take what they give you.

Often it will be an opioid medication.

This is a clip from a 1998 Purdue marketing video.

It was intended for doctors to show their patients to assuage any fears someone might have about taking on an oxy prescription.

Some patients may be afraid of taking opioids because they're perceived as too strong or addictive.

But that is far from actual fact.

Less than 1% of patients taking opioids actually become addicted.

The actual numbers?

We now think that addiction rates were 10 times higher than what the doctor claimed.

One in 10 patients.

As it turned out, you could crush up the pills and snort or inject them.

The coding did very little.

As evidence mounted of this reality, Purdue ignored it.

Purdue executives continued to aggressively market their drug.

They fought court challenges.

They made billions of dollars as tens of thousands, then hundreds of thousands of Americans died from opioid overdoses.

Their story of a drug called Oxycontin that was supposed to be safe helps explain the rise of fentanyl, a drug we've always known was deadly.

You'll remember that reporter Ben Westoff told us how in 2015, fentanyl was not really on the DEA's radar.

They estimated that the fentanyl overdose deaths that previous year were at just 700 people nationwide.

The year after that, the U.S.

government steps in to regulate OxyContin for the first time.

In 2016, the CDC issued a directive that greatly reduced the flow of OxyContin prescriptions.

For Americans who'd become addicted to a drug they were told was not addictive, this was a problem.

They'd been cut off.

And many discovered they'd become something they were told they'd never be.

Drug addicts.

Here's reporter Ben Westoff.

All these people took these pills for legitimate reasons, prescribed by their doctor, became addicted.

And then, when their prescriptions ran out, they sought out illicit heroin on the street.

So, this happened so much that by one study, I think, showed that there were, it created a million new opioid users in America.

So, suddenly, there's this huge new market, and there's just not enough heroin to feed it all.

It's just like fentanyl basically steps in to fill this void.

Since 2016, fentanyl has continued to fill the void.

A pipeline running into the United States without much interruption.

So it goes, precursor goes to Mexico, gets refined in Mexico.

Mexican dealers ship it over the border to the U.S.

What are the like the dealers in the U.S., like you have a sense of who they are?

Yeah, everything comes over the border in places like San Diego, you know, or El Paso, Texas.

And then it kind of like fans out.

So with each rung of the distribution ladder, it gets a little further away from the cartels.

So eventually it's distributed by these different regional gangs.

You know, in California, there's like these MS-13 type gangs.

In St.

Louis, where I live, it's like African-American gangs.

In West Virginia, it's like white, you know, family-run

organizations.

It's all very regional.

Here's a question that I actually haven't seen answered that's really basic.

What is the fentanyl high like?

Like, what does it feel like?

I've never taken fentanyl, but I've heard that fentanyl is described as like a less soulful high than heroin.

I mean, there's all this sort of romanticizing of heroin from like jazz players in the 1960s and things like that.

But one thing that I know for sure is that fentanyl, what makes it such a great hospital drug, is that it doesn't last very long.

And so, this is great if you're operating on someone, but for an addicted user, this is really bad because it means that you have to re-up so quickly.

And so, where one dose of heroin might last you the better part of a day, the fentanyl high is going to wear off in just a few hours, and so it

leaves you kind of scrambling to find more.

I actually spend a decent amount of time lurking on the subreddit for heroin.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm pretty curious about opioids.

Partly because I have friends who've overdosed and I have questions I can't ask them.

But even if I didn't miss those people, I'd be curious anyway.

I'm interested in the highs people pursue, in the addictions that entangle them.

More than anything else, I'm interested in all the life that happens in the places where people congregate in shame.

There's a lot of that part of life bustling quietly on the heroin message board on Reddit.

Pictures of people's heroin stashes, advice about abscesses, and a lot of complaints about fentanyl.

Now, this is a small sample of heroin users, about 70,000.

But the people here at least do not seem to mind OxyContin at all.

It's a good enough heroin replacement.

They do seem to universally despise fentanyl.

Here's one post of many.

Quote, well,

it's almost 1 a.m.

the morning of payday for me finally, and I just did my last line of fent until I get off tomorrow.

This shit is the worst.

I swear I'll be sick as fuck three hours from now before I wake up.

Gonna be a fun 10 and a half hour day work in construction, lol.

Hope I can get some better stuff this week.

Shaking my head.

Somebody else agrees.

God, I fucking hate fentanyl, they say.

Quote, I'm so pissed that it has taken over the opioid market and made it so hard to get real heroin anymore.

I'm sure it'll soon be totally replaced and the poppy fields will fade away as fentanyl makes heroin less and less profitable and I'm honestly very upset by this.

I've seen people be nostalgic for a lot of things on the internet and mad about a lot of things.

This one was new to me.

But nostalgia for heroin is part of fentanyl's legacy and it makes sense that these heroin users hate it.

Like Ben Westoff has said, fentanyl offers a shorter high, a greater addiction potential, and a higher risk of overdose.

To return to 2016, when when all these heroin users couldn't find heroin because the OxyContin addicted newcomers had flooded the market,

their hatred of fentanyl was actually a problem for drug dealers.

But they found a workaround.

Their workaround was that they just lied.

For the first years, at least, of the fentanyl crisis, most people didn't realize they were taking it.

And so, at least east of the Mississippi, all of the heroin in the U.S.

is pretty much white powder.

And so, fentanyl is a white white powder, also.

So you could cut it in there without people realizing.

And at first, it was just very small amounts.

So maybe one part fentanyl to eight parts heroin or something like that.

And they got really good feedback from their customers.

And, you know, they were able to make a stronger product for less money.

And so they kept adding more and more and more, like two parts for every eight and three parts for every eight, et cetera, et cetera.

And nowadays, that's the biggest problem is that fentanyl is being sold as fentanyl.

The drug dealer's dirty trick totally worked.

Many heroin users have all but given up on the idea of finding any non-fentanyl heroin today.

And in fact, many users, Reddit notwithstanding, have just accepted fentanyl as a fact of life.

Some even pursue it.

Ben said nowadays, even a death from a fentanyl overdose can actually be helpful for fentanyl dealers.

When users would hear about someone dying, overdosing from a product that had a lot of fentanyl, you know, the sad truth is that a lot of them weren't saying, I need to avoid that batch.

A lot of them were saying, I need to get some of that batch.

You know, people really think it's not going to happen to them.

So death can be like a form of advertisement.

I mean, it's really sad to say, but that is, I've talked to a lot of people who say exactly that.

Yeah.

Wow.

So that is a pretty dark answer or part of an answer to the question that brought us here.

Why would drug dealers adulterate their drugs with another drug that could kill their customers?

Because those dealers have realized that actually it's not bad for business.

A combination of overall opioid demand plus some addicts' fatal commitment to the highest high means that poisoning some customers actually works out for the dealer in the long run.

But that's the opioid market.

Remember, we wanted to know about cocaine users, weed users, people who are not seeking out the kind of opioid high that fentanyl offers.

Death, presumably, is not an advertisement for them.

So why would any dealer put fentanyl in those kinds of drugs?

That, at least, feels like bad business.

One of the things I find confusing about that is that, like,

my assumption is that a stimulant user, like a cocaine user, would notice, hey, this is like a different high.

Like, why is it possible?

to cut it into drugs that are supposed to have very different reactions.

The first thing I think is that cocaine in America is so adulterated and it has been for so long that Americans have no idea what real cocaine is actually like.

I've heard from people who've had it pure that it's basically like, it's more like ecstasy, actually.

It gives you this euphoric feeling rather than this sort of like manic high and that it lasts a long time.

And the second thing is I think that just people aren't complaining.

You know, users aren't really in a position to complain.

And as long as they're getting high at all, I think most people probably are satisfied with their Coke being cut with fentanyl.

So from Ben's perspective, as a person who has studied the opioid market as an outsider, a journalist, not a customer, not a dealer, this phenomenon just made sense.

Dealers putting fentanyl in drugs like cocaine was not shocking to him, given his understanding of how chaotically illicit markets function.

In the beginning of this episode, I said I'd begun with this assumption, which is that illicit markets resemble normal ones.

And I said the reason I had this question about fentanyl poisoning was because I didn't understand why any business would want to kill its own customers.

Ben's view is that illicit markets are not normal.

American drugs are deeply adulterated.

Fentanyl is just the latest worst instance of that.

It's not surprising to Ben that in an unregulated, underground marketplace that trafficks in extremely addictive, dangerous substances, of course anything could happen.

And sometimes it does.

And sometimes people die from it.

All of this is certainly correct.

And I actually spoke to a drug dealer, someone who does not sell fentanyl or other opioids, and he basically echoed Ben.

Although this dealer described the fentanyl dealers' motives much less charitably, This dealer said those fentanyl dealers' behavior was not a mystery.

They were just desperate people who are not that smart.

He sort of sounded almost like a Republican lawmaker.

He said the fentanyl dealers were basically evil.

They were stupid.

Of course, they'd adulterate a cheaper, less dangerous drug with fentanyl.

Idiots do everything.

But for me, whatever itch I'd had that had made me want to answer this in the first place, the itch still remained.

I just...

It bothered me to see this system as completely senseless, as almost nihilist.

People do things for reasons, even if the reasons are awful.

I wanted someone from within the world of fentanyl to walk me through this.

To understand it,

it's probably going to take so much because none of it makes sense, but to us it made sense.

Next week, we meet a former drug dealer who has sold fentanyl, who has used fentanyl, who gives us an answer to our question and paints a picture of how bad things have actually gotten in illicit markets.

He'll talk about how he's become so suspicious, he doesn't even trust the guy at the corner, Bodega anymore.

I won't even buy a loose cigarette in the store today.

Really?

No, I won't.

I won't do it.

I'd rather not smoke or get a smoke from a friend.

I cannot buy a loose cigarette.

Because you're worried they would lace a loose cigarette, like a bodega guy would lace a lace loose.

Why not?

Why not?

It's just another hustle.

That's next week on Search Engine.

If you, listener, take illicit drugs or know people who take illicit drugs and want to stay safe we've collected some resources while reporting this story those resources after some ads

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Welcome back to the show.

So for people who use illicit drugs, the resource that came up again and again and again is DanceSafe.

DanceSafe.org.

You can go to their website and you can buy fentanyl test strips.

We'll have a link to this in the newsletter and we'll put in a video for how people use these strips, but it's very easy.

You take a small amount of the substance you want to test, you dilute it in water, you dip the strip, and then you look for a line, like a COVID test.

Another website that might be useful to you is called drugsdata.org.

This place, people send in their illicit drugs, the organization tests them with a mass spectrometer.

So you can see exactly what's actually in those drugs, and then they publish what they find.

So I personally find this site interesting because I can go online and look at what is in the New York drug supply this week.

Looking at drugsdata.org, what I see right now is someone bought MDMA, which was in fact MDMA.

Someone else bought Xanax, which was in fact Benetrel.

So it can just be a helpful resource for you to find out what's going on in your city.

Also, there's this whole fascinating interview we did with a drug dealer who actually talked about what is in illicit drugs besides fentanyl, all the other adults risky encounters in cocaine and ketamine.

I think if people are curious about learning more about this, let us know.

We might just run that interview as its own episode.

I will say, I found that conversation illuminating and fairly frightening.

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Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions.

It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinamanini.

It's produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John.

Theme and original composition by Armin Bazarian.

Fact-checking by Sean Merchant.

Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Rhys-Dennis.

Thank you to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gidney, Richard Corello, and John Schmidt.

And to the team at Odyssey, J.D.

Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Matt Casey, Casey Clauser, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hill Reshoff.

Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA.

Our social media is by the team at Public Opinion NYC.

You can follow and listen to Search Engine now for free on the Odyssey app, on Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And you can subscribe to our free newsletter where you can submit comments and questions for the show at pjvote.com.

Thank you for listening.

We'll see you next week.