Search Engine x What We Spend

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Hello. This is a very important reminder before I start this.

Today, Friday, May 30th, is Falafel Friday at Search Engine.

That means that at noon Eastern time, we're going to have lunch together over Zoom, and we will be joined by our friend and fellow podcaster, Jonathan Goldstein from Heavyweight.

Jonathan is one of the greats, and someone who, hearing himself described as one of the greats, is probably immediately squirming in his chair somewhere in the American Midwest.

Anyway, the great Jonathan Goldstein is joining us. I will have questions for him.
Maybe I'll take some listener questions for him. Lunch is at noon Eastern Time.

The link to join will arrive in your inbox an hour before at 11 a.m. Eastern Time.
This event is for paid subscribers only. So if you are an incognito mode member, you'll receive the email.

If you're not an incognito mode member, you can sign up at searchengine.show. And if you have any issues, issues, email me at pjvote85 at gmail.com.

And yes, we will make a recording of the event available for our incognito mode members after the fact. Okay, today, Friday, May 30th at noon, please bring your own falafel.
Thank you.

As for this week, we are sharing an episode of a new podcast made by one of our label mates over at Odyssey.

I think just for starters, can you just say your name and what you do? Yeah, my name is Courtney Harrell, and I am a producer, and I host the show What We Spend.

Courtney is a veteran podcast producer. She's worked a lot with one of my favorite hosts, Dan Daberski, both on the series Running from Cops and 912.

She is now hosting herself. Her new show is about money.
I think about money all the time. I have always thought about money all the time.

I would say that I have traditionally been a high anxiety money person where, you know, I started tracking every expense that I made when I was a teenager. And what prompted that?

Being afraid I wasn't going to have enough money to

do things.

Do you recall your teenage expenses?

I mean, some of it was just like food. Yeah.
But it was like also, I took a tap dancing class whenever I was a teenager.

I'm not a big dancer, but like I remember like really tracking how much the like tap shoes were gonna cost. And I remember like buying songs on iTunes for my iPod.

And you would put like the 99 cent expenditure in? Yeah. So it'd be like

chumba wumba 99 cents. Totally.

Each episode of what we spend follows one person who talks very openly about the money they make and the money they spend. It's like sneaking into someone else's checking account for a week.

You meet a woman in Utah clawing her way out from under student loans. You meet a freelance actor planning for the uncertain period between gigs.

It's funny with your show, as I've been listening to it, there's something like literally just hearing someone say, not just what they make, but in detail, what they spend in a month, I have this feeling of, am I hearing something illicit?

Oh, the first time I was in an interview and somebody said, I got a check and I was like, how much was that check for?

And then like shrunk back in my seat because it actually felt like so crazy to be like, no, specifically, like tell me how much you're talking about for all of these things.

What makes money such a funny taboo is like, you know, we have like taboos around our bodies and we have taboos around our language and we have taboos around like all sorts of parts of the way we think our self-presentation, but money is a funny one because somebody

might feel ashamed that they don't make enough. They might feel ashamed that they make too much.
And depending on who they're in front of, the same person could have both feelings.

Like, I feel like that's why people don't talk about it. Totally.

So this week on Search Engine, we're talking about it. We're sharing an episode of What We Spend that I chose to share with you.

It's about the financial life of an American trucker, a category of worker we've been thinking about a lot in our office these days. I hope you enjoy it.

What other jobs did you work before this one?

I did. I have worked

for Citibus and I came back to trucking. I want to say four years ago.
And even my son, when he was little, I had showed in the truck. And he said, my mama driving the truck?

I'm like, yeah, the bill's got to be paid, baby. I saw it as a way to get my bills paid.
And it seemed to have some enjoyment about it, I thought.

And it does. We just need better pay.

This is Maxine. She is a 60-year-old long-haul truck driver based in North Carolina.
How big is the truck?

This is a 53-foot trailer. Oh, that's really big, right? That's it.

Yes. Do people ask you to honk your horn all the time?

Sometimes, especially babies, and I don't mind. I've had babies myself.
They're all grown and grandbabies. I don't mind.
I love everybody's babies.

Maxine took time off for a few other jobs, but she's been trucking off and on for different companies since 2004.

She's driven routes all over the country, but right now she works what's called a dedicated route, which means she's always delivering home goods for a specific company through the same stretch of the country.

We talked on the phone before she headed out from North Carolina for her next drive to South Carolina and then on to Louisiana.

Maxine is one of about three and a half million truckers in the U.S. who literally make the rest of our lives possible.
She is an indispensable part of American life.

And like a lot of truckers, she is not not making enough to get by.

Maxine works hard. Week after week, she barely buys anything, and still, she can't always pay her bills.
And she is not alone.

This week, we're going to follow Maxine through a week of her life on the road and hear the benefits and the price of life as a trucker.

I'm Courtney Harrell, and this is what we spend.

The first thing to know about trucking is that the pay is confusing. You can get paid by the day, by the hour, or by the mile.

Yeah,

the companies can choose to pay you in that way. I'm paying now by the mile.
By the mile, okay. Companies typically choose how to pay based on the kind of route someone is driving.

So hourly pay is more likely for local routes with frequent stops in a smaller area. But most long-haul truckers, like Maxine, are paid by the mile, not hours worked.

How much you earn per mile is a calculation of a bunch of factors: what you're carrying, how far you're driving, who you're driving for, and how many years you've been doing this.

But no matter your rate, you only earn that if you're moving on the road with a truck full of goods. How much money do you make?

Okay, so

my taxes this year, I think it was um 44,000. Okay.

And it fell from grace. I was making like $1,600 a week.
I saw my way of being able to get a home and

a little bit of land and place to park the truck, trailer. But it went from that to

my checks could be $380, $480 in one week, $500 in one week. What happened?

That's what I want to know. They say it's the rates

and then the loads.

Rates and loads. Basically, Maxine told me that these days there's less merchandise for her to carry and she's getting paid less to carry it.
That is not just a Maxine problem.

The freight market has been in a recession the last few years because when manufacturing, construction, and retail markets slow down, there's just less goods to carry, fewer loads.

And that means there's less work available, which leads to lower rates.

And, you know, drivers get together and talk. As you can imagine, we're in the yard and we're walking outside talking to each other about lows.
Like, hey, what's going on with you?

What's going with you? We're all saying,

you know, the low issue. And this young man that used to work at Walmart, he was like, I

might have to go back to Walmart because there's no loads. I got bills.
Sounds for it. Blah, blah, blah.
He was saying. And I prayed about it.

I said, Lord, I don't know what type of mountains I got to climb and what's going to be thrown at me, but I can't keep going from job to job to job. They all seem to have problems with loads.

According to the most recent data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average trucker takes home about $57,000 a year, about $10,000 more than Maxine made last year.

But remember, they're paid by the mile.

So sometimes drivers like Maxine end up on the road for so long waiting for loads to come through that if they were paid hourly, they'd be making less than minimum wage.

I've had paychecks where it was zero, where I owed the company. Oh, wow.
Yeah, I got two paychecks in a row like that. Wait, what do you owe the company for?

It's because I borrowed $500 advance from the next paycheck so I could make rent. Then, say my next pay was only $480.

Then I owe the company the rest of that advance and then it'll go into the next week as well.

And if say that week was the week that the truck set up and between sitting up and not having a load until the following week, then I won't have a paycheck that week either.

What do you do when you don't have a paycheck come through or when you get a paycheck that's like, I owe money?

Let me tell you, I came back to where i was living and sat down with the manager i never left them alone the manager of the apartment complex i always showed up when i told him i was going to show up if i had money or not and i i signed a promissory note to pay within six months period and he told me he said maxine we know i believe you'll pay you've always told us what was up and was here yeah and if i had nothing left i made sure

he got paid and my other bills got paid. My finance company, my credit card.
I didn't ditch out on nobody.

Maxine owes money to a finance company because she took out what's called a debt consolidation loan to reduce a bunch of her debt to one payment with a lower interest rate.

So now the gameplay is I pay off the credit card and the finance company. $296

with the finance company up the street. I think I got $1,800 left on theirs.

And then I have a another finance company that i pay four hundred and fifty dollars to a month and and there's seventeen thousand is that debt from regular living expenses or is there a larger expense yeah it's just from that's regular that's that's from that's from me

not making the money that i need

maxine really doesn't have that many regular expenses her health insurance comes out of her pay and then she spends about 120 a month on utilities, $80 a month on her phone, $645 a month on her car and insurance, and about $80 a month on gas.

The biggest expense weighing her down is her rent, which is $1,400 a month for her one bedroom in North Carolina. But after all that, she often has to put her groceries on her credit card.

I spend quite a bit because of toiletries.

You have to have a makeshift bathroom. And see, the thing is with truck drivers, a lot of times we don't have a bathroom.

Or if they have one, they won't let us use it. And we can't stop the restaurants.

What do you do?

You got to make it. Some people buy buckets and make good poetry.
I see. You know, and it goes into the garbage bags and then tie it up and get it in the garbage can.

And now if something happens like a disaster, like it accidentally spills over the whole floor, now you got to clean that whole floor up. Oh, God.

So I buy a lot of paper towels, garbage bags, and things like that, cleaner and things like that.

Like I'm looking at right now, I got last night I went and got paper towels and I went to Dollar General and I shopped Dollar General quite a bit. It's $15 each.

One, two, three, four, five, seven, eight rolls. Oh, okay.

I got it on each side, the big giant rolls. Okay.

Now, I'll go through a whole pack of that in about five days. Whoa.

See, those are things that people don't know. That's a lot of expense.
And you gotta have that each week and you're gonna run out. Yeah.
You try to run out on payday.

Supplies like Maxine's paper towels aren't typically covered by trucking companies. Some companies do offer per diems to help with those kinds of travel costs, but there's no law requiring it.

So more than half of trucking companies just don't. Despite that, despite the low pay and the loads and the makeshift bathroom, Maxine loves driving her truck.

How did you get into it initially? I kind of,

well,

after

life hit me, I looked at, you know, you have the B and the C plan. Yeah.
Because originally As a child, you know, it was medical, the medical field and nursing.

I kind of click with that, you know, and

I

had the issues that was horrible throughout my youth. And

I went through a lot of abusive stuff. I'm sorry.

Oh yeah, he was a monster.

But when I got into my adult life and I started looking at, you know, other plans and my father always said, you know, you're really good with driving. And my mother said that too.

I would help with the church members, especially elderly church members, and get the church. I'll give you an example.

When I started driving buses, I had one of the most toughest instructors to check me. And when he told me, he said, Maxine,

you're putting me to sleep. I was like, dang, I got it.

You are tough.

If I could put your butt to sleep, amen.

Yeah, I mean, that is impressive. wow

so i when i got my chance to learn how to drive the trailers i did so so you had your parents saying you were a good driver yeah but what else was it about about trucking that made you be like oh as soon as i get the chance to do that that's what i'm gonna do just uh driving

makes me calm

Driving calms me down. I feel safe when I'm driving.

And

that's probably from my background, my childhood and teenagehood and stuff. Just the like being in a space where I feel comfortable.
And

it worked out. Maxine went to trucking school in Kansas, where she learned a bunch of driving techniques that would help once she was out there on her own.

Like how to turn no matter how long the wheels span, how to keep control through high-grade hills, how to see the road in front of a long-nosed truck.

And she learned a healthy respect for the massive machines, learned to stay vigilant all the time. And she loved it.
What is the best part of the job?

Knowing that you're doing something meaningful,

the importance of getting the goods there.

And,

you know, just feeling like that you're doing something good

that needs to happen. You're getting stuff to people that they need.

Right, and getting into the little towns that need things and it's hard for them to get because, you know, having empty shelves is not a happy town.

Yeah.

I think a lot of us associate driving on like big, long, open roads the way that you do with freedom. Does it feel that way to you? You feel that.

You do. Yeah, you definitely, you feel that.

can you feel that mostly when you first start driving when when you're new to it that's your first feel like wow the freedom of of of doing this and i'm on a meaningful job and it's it can be healing the road can be actually healing what whatever you've been through in your life or still going through but everything is fresh and new and it feels so good and and you are meeting people and and the food on the road truckers know seem to know the best places to eat

and

you

you know you can feel that freedom

after the break we'll dive into Maxine's week

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Audio Diary Day 1. I'm recording in Pope, Florida, in a company tractor trailer at a rest stop.

Today, I started my morning out as usual.

You start your pre-trips starting inside the truck and then outside the truck, checking everything out thoroughly.

After things are cleared, you can get on the road you start your travel and it was a really good morning for travel very nice very nice drive i kept driving to around 10 took a quick break in uh the florida welcome trucks rest stop uh off of 75 south which was a very very very nice looking rest stop uh very clean looking I got to talk to a few people as I went about my business.

So I didn't hang around long, had to get back, do a 30-minute break, and got back on 75 South.

And,

you know, cars are going to cut through traffic and cut the trucks off. That's pretty normal.
The better thing is not to cut them off and not to get in front of them.

Some cars will speed as if they're going to keep their speed and get in front of the truck. And then all of a sudden slow completely down to almost a stop.
And they love to do this going downhill.

You're carrying maybe 44,000 pounds more, 43,000 pounds more. The last thing you need is a car almost coming to a stop in front of you.

Trucks are pretty strong, but they're not perfect and they can't stop on a dime. So you do the best you can with what you got to work with.
Anyway, I got the load where it needed to go.

I detached from my load, then I found my my empty trailer to attach to and went out to find a parking spot, which is not always easy, but I felt very blessed to find one at a rest stop. And

that has been my day. I'm still in Florida and I'll be moving out in the morning.

Maxine had already bought the food she needed the day before, so her total for day one was $0.

This is audio diary two.

After I got up, I usually kind of check out the scenery, what's going on, with movement. Can I move the truck? Is there someone that's gonna be blocking me?

Then from there, we have what's called the EOD in the truck. This is a tablet.
and it's a computer tablet. So all of our messages and work information comes through that and

what we do during the day if we stop all of our movements and information goes on that so we can correspond with a company and they can correspond back with us when you get your GPS set everything checked out and you're personally ready to go i did all of that this morning and uh headed toward 4 East.

My goal was to get to Jacksonville area so I can keep moving toward Alabama. I got to a stop, truck stop.
This is a little different. This is called a gas and go is where I perched tonight.

The gas and go is like a mini grocery store. They have everything from frozen meats, which I did need for my little freezer in my truck.
So I grabbed up just a few cold items for that freezer.

Some turkey sausages, some corn. I think I got sweet peas, which I love, sweet peas, especially with my rice.

And throw those items in the fridge.

And I tried their potatoes. They got a little deli in there.
They make the best wedge potatoes. Also,

I saw a little brownie.

and I almost didn't allow myself to have it but I did

and I'm glad I did. That was a very very good brownie.
So I spent tonight $42.06

which is crazy but I now have food in the freezer. That'll last me a month.

Are you in the truck right now? I am. Yeah, will you just kind of describe the inside of it to me? Like, what would I see if I was in there?

Well, when you get in and you'll see the steering wheel, the seats, and

all of the

electronic equipment and things. And then there's a bed.

I don't have the best hips in back, so I have two mattresses.

Cubbies in the front, and in the back area, there's cabinets I put food in.

And have some cooking things so I can cook

a little glance and that's G-A-L-A-N-Z those things are wonderful the refrigerator and and a little oven I've had the refrigerator and oven in here the refrigerator I bought the oven one of the drivers had a glance and he gave me a glance what how do you cook in there Well, I have a little pan.

We have an inverter that you can plug it up to. And a buddy of mine gave me a coffee pot that boils water in seconds.
So I get my

teas. I love teas.
I like lemongrass tea. Oh, it's so good.
We'll put you to sleep so quickly.

At the end of the night, it has the best stuff. As long as Maxine stays at her current job, she's always driving the same truck.

So all these things in her kitchen, plus the tea and the extra mattress and an old picture of her son's basketball team, make the truck she spends so much time in feel more like her own.

This is Audio Diary 3. I started my day pretty much the same.
I made the two and a half hour drive from that gas and go

to the Alabama 280 West,

and that was for the delivery of the freight.

And

I got it there a few days early. So

they allowed me

to park the trailer.

And then I could bobtail out. And the

part of the truck, that's only the truck without the trailer, is called a bobtail.

So I bobtail out.

I headed to the Loves.

It was about 45 minutes, maybe 53 minutes away through the through the mountains. And those

that had its high points and low drops, you know,

lots of curves in the road. But once I got to the Loves,

I did go buy a Taco Bell

and get a quesadilla. I spent $8.

And

inside Loves,

I spent another $8.

so that's a total of $16 for the day.

I

made a park here at the Loves,

and that would put me into a 34-hour reset time.

Your 34-hour reset is the amount of time you're required to take off before starting a new work week.

So, a driver is only allowed to work 70 hours in an eight-day period, and then they have to take that break. So,

in this time, most drivers like to do their laundry,

touch base with their families. The loves have showers

and usually they have other little restaurants inside

so they can do a little bit of shopping. So I did not have to do that this time because I've already picked up some things during the week that was needed for the truck.

That is usually what most drivers do on a 34-hour reset.

I

will

be talking to you tomorrow.

Total for day three, $16 at Love's Truck Stop.

This is audio diary 4. This is the end of my 34 hour reset

for the 70 hour clock on the truck.

So that means I didn't drive today.

I

went into the truck stop store. I went in there because I have

a swelling feet sometimes and it didn't go down I noticed. So I went in to get something for it.
Got a little gel-like icy thing. You can either throw in a refrigerator or you can heat it.

They had it half price. around the office, $15.

And I got some hydrous drinks. And there was something else because my total was $26 for the day.

I got me a wonderful shower. I got to talk to family.
And

I got to do some music. Maxine loves to listen to music while she drives.
Mostly gospel, rock and roll, a little country. But she also loves opera and she loves to sing.

So, in her downtime, she's learning to sing O meo babino gado.

I didn't want to get too loud. So even though I'm in the truck, I don't want to disturb anyone.
So I just kept it to a minimum. I'll draw the curtains.
We have like blackout curtains.

And I'll draw the curtains. Sometimes I'll open it because

it's sitting behind the curtains all the time. On your time off, it can get

dreary.

So I'll open it so I can see out and things like that. Some truckers mingle.
I'm not a good mingler. So I'll find something to do in my truck, you know.

I have some knitting needles here somewhere, right there.

I'll probably later on try to get a little tiny sewing to make something.

But that has been it.

Total for day four:

$26.

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Hi,

this is Audio Diary 5.

Now, what I want to explain is like

the days that I was not moving,

you don't get paid for that if the truck breaks down

you're not paid it can be just bad equipment shoddy equipment or something went wrong

if something happens and you get to a custody and say they cancel you don't get paid you should get paid something because you're You're in the vehicle, you're on duty as an employee, but you don't get paid

expenses for us like gloves

hammers things like that that is all on us

that you need for your truck

expenses for GPS that'll run you probably between $400 $1,200

that's all on us if you're needing parking

and

there's no more free parking. My experience is between between $20 and $30.

There's some that's higher and there's some as lower as $17.

I don't think I've ever seen it lower than $17. So that money, you may or may not get back.
A lot of times you won't get it back. There are some companies I've read that they will pay it back.

And

that's a toss-up. And if you got a load and a truck responsibility, you want to make sure nothing happens to it.
So we're caught between a rock and a hard place.

Can I ask, like, this part of your job that's like, okay,

I don't get paid if all of these things happen with my truck or with the load.

Like, how does that make you feel?

You feel abandoned. Maxime kind of is abandoned.
Ever since the 1980s, the trucking industry has become increasingly deregulated.

And now there's no law that says trucking companies have to cover expenses like parking or supplies.

So it's left up to truckers to figure out how to get through the job and then how to pay for life outside the job. And for Maxine, she can no longer make both things work.

Once I was going through this over and over and over again, my rent got behind.

And for a whole year, it stayed behind until the point where, yeah, this I could not renew because

I didn't make enough money to pay the $1,400 rent.

After months of working 14-hour days and waiting, waiting, waiting for her pay to improve so she could catch up on bills. Maxine was forced to make a really hard decision.

She decided she had to give up her apartment. After day five, she headed back to North Carolina and started packing up.
As I look around,

I'm not liking this.

I'm not liking

packing everything

and

getting all this stuff in storage.

It's one of those things that you don't want to have to go through. I've been there before

and when you believe an industry should be stable and it's not, you know.

I tell myself everything is for a reason.

You know, take this time to pay down all your debt and maybe I could get that land and a little house on there or build a house on there, and I'll have place for a tractor and a trailer, a small business.

The apartment, I'm always

keeping everything up as I go.

Thank God it's clean.

Carpet's clean, still looks new. They won't have a problem with finding someone.

But I just hate it.

Hate going through it.

It's daunting, very painful.

And the finances is crazy. We need rental caps all across the United States.
It's nothing wrong with making a profit. Everybody's for a profit, but not so much that you're killing your citizens.

Makes no sense. And the industry, the transportation industry, need to pay a living wage.
All of of us, from trucking to bus,

city buses,

we need a living wage. No truck driver should be homeless.
They need a home. They need land.
They need a home.

They need a place to put securement for loads that they're going to take out the next day.

They need that.

I don't believe it.

Where did you go stay after

you left your place?

I live in the truck. You live in the truck full-time? I live in the truck full-time.
And see, let me tell you, that's scary because now you're giving full trust.

The company that I came from

have quite a bit of truck drivers that are living in their vehicles. How do you all talk to each other about that? What do you say to each other?

I'll ask them about the pay.

When we get together and we start talking about pay, they'll mention that they live in a truck, you know, so they could get their bills paid. I've talked to

a guy, and

he was told me that him and his wife, you know, had to give up their home. Yeah.

And I'm like, okay, that's how they're making up. for the pay and the non-pay

and he told me he said you might want to try that i said not voluntarily That was during that time. Yeah.

I did not see that it was going to happen.

And see, from here, it would be on the street.

Now you got truck drivers retiring on the street.

This is audio diary 7. I'm in North Carolina where I live.
I'm home

and the only expenditures I did is preparation for the truck when I leave out. I'm hoping to leave out Friday.
They have me for Monday, but I need to make some money for this week.

So I spent between, let's say, approximately $20.

I think the paper towels is, let's see, yeah, that's about the only thing that I bought. But I am home, just moving, putting stuff in storage.

and it's very scary. I'm so scared about this thing.
I love my little apartment, but I gotta go.

How much money would you need to make to be able to reliably have a home again?

I need to go back, at least with

the economy being the way it is, between I'm saying 14 and 16.

That should do it.

That's not going to put me a week.

If the job is paying so far below what you need to meet your basic needs,

what is keeping you in this job?

The trucking industry is one where

If you move around too much, you won't get hired.

that's what I know about it yeah it's it's a flip of the coin so

you gotta stay stable a few years in something whether it's good or bad you know yeah and and

I'm thinking just pay everything off yeah I can see myself doing that live out of truck and pay and and and pay everything off then

maybe within months or half a year things will change back are there other jobs besides trucking that you could imagine having more stability in uh

without training

um like i i've taken up some phlebotomy on the side here just on my own just reading and i have thought about it and i am looking um of what can be done and I've also thought about there's there's drivers I've talked to that that drive part-time and they have a second job.

So I'm joshing some things around. I'm a worker

and I do the work that I can do. I try to stick to what I know and what I can do.
We talked before about the freedom you would feel on the road. Do you still feel that when you're driving now?

I do.

I do. And I look forward to a refreshing feeling.
I do want to be able to go to a home and have a little garden

and get on

my back porch. I got a lot of southern in me and

fall asleep

in a chair, the little couch outside that I would design for myself.

When you're talking about your long-term future that you are imagining for yourself, your dream of this land,

does that include trucking? Or is your kind of like like long-term dream leaving trucking behind?

It definitely includes trucking because

I could see myself driving less as I get older in life and you know, it's going that way.

It depends on what life throws at me. I mean, I could end up teaching it.
Yeah. You know? Yeah.

But

I...

I don't know what it is about the trucks.

I think it's because

we live in it, work

daily with it. It kind of becomes a part of you,

you know? Yeah.

And

leaving it can be like a divorce.

You're going to need some counseling.

In the weeks after recording the episode, Maxine was still living in her truck and saving money towards the future. But she did get one piece of good news.
Her company is getting her a newer truck.

truck.

Thank you to Alex Leslie at the American Transportation Research Institute and Steve Vaselli. They both helped us understand the trucking industry for this episode.

If you want to know more, check out Steve's book, The Big Rig, Trucking and the Decline of the American Dream.

What We Spend is an Odyssey Original podcast. It's written and hosted by me, Courtney Harrell.
Our producers are Margo Gray and Kristen Torres. Our editor is Jonathan Menhebar.

Our executive producers are Maddie Sprung Kaiser and Leah Rees-Dennis. Theme song and original music by Matt McGinley.
Additional music from APM Music. Mixing by Pedro Alvira.

Special thanks to Melissa Akiko Slaughter, Joel Lovell, Jenna Weiss-Berman, J.D. Crowley, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Kurt Courtney, Hilary Scheff, Sean Cherry, Laura Berman, and Hilary Van Ornum.

If you want to be on What We Spend, we'd love to hear from you. Write us at whatweSpendpodcast at gmail.com.

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