The Coldest Case In Laramie - Episode 2

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Previously, on The Coldest Case in Laramie.

I just, I feel like that there could be something there, especially given like Fred Lamb was a cop.

Oh, there is something there, I'm sure.

I remember Michelle smacking me and telling me, look at those weirdos, there's my neighbors.

He's a weirdo.

Then it got really quiet and it was like he was whispering in the phone and he said, you need to pursue this.

Don't stop.

There's homework here.

If you guys could get me, like, if you could talk to Michelle and see if she'd talk to me.

And I'm sure Michelle will talk to you.

All right.

Can you hear me now?

Oh, my God.

Okay.

Oh, gosh.

Oh, my gosh.

It's actually working.

I just heard you

do something else.

Lori and Brandy made good on their homework.

Within a day of our first conversation, Lori connected me with Shelly's old roommate, Michelle.

Michelle is a striking woman.

Big eyes, bigger smile.

We met over Zoom.

She prepared for the interview in a way I didn't.

I wore a baseball cap and soft pandemic clothes.

Michelle dressed for this meeting like an important job interview, in full makeup and blown-out hair.

She was eager to talk.

How did you meet Shelly?

At the restaurant.

We We were waitresses there.

We kind of looked a little bit alike and had a lot of the same

goals.

You know, we were both pretty good students and just, we just, we hit it off.

She was a sweet, sweet, sweet person.

We were just, it was like we were a married couple, but, you know, we're obviously two females, but she, we remember, I remember I bought a washer and dryer, she bought a stereo.

We had a we had milk crates for furniture.

You know, we had our stuff sitting on milk crates and we just thought we were so cool.

we just we were so poor but we just we just felt like we had it all

she was she was was she a couple years older than you then if you were

and had you waited tables before or how did you end up at foster's um they just were hiring and i went down there and thought i better find a job it's funny because i didn't i come from a big spanish family five kids nobody's ever left home and then i told my parents i'm gonna go away to college and they're like yeah sure you are and i and you know they're you know a poor family and they couldn't afford to put me through college i said well i'm going to move there i'm going to get a job and they were like okay good luck with that and then come june 4th i was i was packed my bags i didn't have bags i didn't have bags i packed my boxes full of my clothes and i said i'm leaving tomorrow and my brother was like oh my god she's really leaving so my dad had him drive with me and and move there and we drove into Laramie June 4th and it snowed and he was like, I won't tease you if you come back home.

I won't say a word.

And I was like, no, I'm staying.

So I applied for a job at Foster's and got hired and worked there full-time.

The weird thing, I'll never forget, Big Pete from Big Pete's Welding said, Why did you move here?

And I said, I came to go to college.

He said, You're going to get an education, but it's not going to be at school.

And I thought, what does he mean by that?

Oh, he wasn't kidding.

That town gave me an education.

I remember it so well.

I remember it like it was yesterday.

I stayed

at my boyfriend's house, and we got in a huge fight because I wanted to go home.

And I said, I want to go home.

I don't feel right.

Something felt weird.

And I remember it was either two or three in the morning.

And he said, you can't go home now.

It's the middle of the night.

Nothing's going to change between now and then.

And I just said, something's wrong.

I don't feel, I don't, I cannot describe it.

And I can't tell you why.

And then that morning early, I went home and it was like five or six or something.

And that's how I saw the flames.

And I saw the apartment still burning.

And when I pulled up, that's when the officer said,

who are you?

And I said, I live here.

And

then they said, where's Shelly?

And I thought, what do you mean, where's Shelly?

She's in the house.

And I was hysterical, just going crazy.

I just could never forget those words.

They said, Do you know where Shelly is?

And I was just like dumbfounded.

I said, What do you mean, do I know where she is?

She's in the house.

And I just went crazy, just went nuts.

Yeah, I can't imagine.

Yeah.

So, shortly after Shelly was killed, I met

my husband, who I'm divorced with, and married him quickly.

He was 10 years older than I was.

He was a high school teacher, and I was scared out of my mind.

It was a scary time, and I was just searching for

comfort.

And that was, you know,

he was 30, I was 20, and he was a high school teacher.

And I thought, he's not going to hurt me.

And do you think that Shelly's death, I mean, I would imagine it had everything to do with that.

Oh, guarantee, because right after,

so when Shelly was killed, I was, I was still in shock.

I was so young and I was just, I didn't even call my parents when it happened until probably you know, the next day.

And I think one of the detectives said, we got to call your parents.

And then

my dad wanted me to move back home because he was scared and I wouldn't.

And then

somebody sent me, I started, I rented an apartment, a basement apartment.

Foster's gave me like $600 because I didn't have any clothes.

All my clothes were burnt.

And I didn't even have a coat.

I don't even think.

And so they gave me $600 so I could rent an apartment.

And then somebody mailed me a card with a $100 bill in it and said, if you're smart, you'd leave town.

so the detectives got the card i called them right away because i was so scared i thought somebody's going to come for me next which nobody knew that i lived i mean i hadn't been there for more than maybe a week

and so i did leave and i stayed home for a month and then i was just i felt like i was running away i thought i'll never be able to face my fears and face what happened.

And I just wanted to go back to Laramie.

Yeah, but that was all just so, so surreal.

That whole, you know, somebody sending me now, they think it was probably Fred that did that,

you know, the detectives, but back then they didn't know.

They just kind of,

I don't know, you know, all the things that he did to us while we were in that apartment, it was constant, you know, and back then it was just so, it was so strange because Lori and I laughed, not laughed, but we were talking about how I used to work graveyards.

And so one time I woke up in the middle of the day and there was a mouse inside my shirt on my belly.

And how does that get there?

You know, and my screens would come off of my windows all the time.

And then he would say, and then I was screaming because that mouse was on my belly.

I was freaking out.

And he all of a sudden was at the door and was like, gee, what's wrong?

What's wrong?

Do you need help?

I mean, how did he know, you know, that I think he put the mouse and I don't know.

I guess I don't know that for sure, but I know for sure that he would take the screens off, ask me for help, and then say, Can I come in and help you put your screens on?

or so your screens would come off.

You obviously probably wouldn't see him take the screens off, but he was always there saying, Hey, do you need help with that?

Yes, yeah.

Hey, I noticed your screens are off.

Can I help you put your screens back on and stuff?

So,

yeah,

in hindsight now, there is,

I would say, I am 99.9% sure Fred Lamb murdered Shelly.

I think, you know what my gut tells me is

she smoked, he smoked.

I think she went out probably when she got home.

She didn't smoke in the house.

She went outside to smoke

because I brought her, I went to Florida with my parents that June and I brought her an ashtray from Florida and that was outside all broken.

And I think she was outside smoking.

He probably came outside.

He probably hit on her.

She told him to go pound sand and I bet you he tried to rape her and that's my thought I don't know truthfully what how that all happened but I think she was outside smoking when he started talking to her I think she probably didn't give him the time of day he just probably was drunk and lost it

so the stuff about lamb being a former cop and a former deputy you know

it creates some complications i would think with the investigation.

Like, did was there some, were they just like, well, that guy's good because he's one of us.

Yes.

Yes.

Yep.

And, and nobody questioned the fact that at 5 a.m.

He's fully dressed and that's, he's not even at his house.

That's not his house.

He's at somebody else's house.

He's a married man there and that his truck was parked.

in a parking lot away running there's a matchbook by his by his truck you know nobody questioned any of those things nobody did and then lets him leave town and what was the matchbook i hadn't heard about the match there there was a thumbprint like a bloody thumbprint on a matchbook and they found that but they didn't investigate him take his prints or do anything at that time they just had that matchbook and there was a bloody thumbprint on it they tested lori they tested me they took hair samples from me, from my pubic hair, from Lori, but they didn't test Fred.

And then they let him leave the very next day with all of his clothes and all of his boots and everything that was there.

I just knew that they weren't looking in the right direction and they didn't have a freaking clue who did that because if they're sitting there doing all of this to us, they didn't know what they were doing.

They had no idea.

The crazy thing, the craziest thing of all.

So I've worked at the Orthopedic Center of the Rockies in Fort Collins for 17 years now.

There's a guy that works there that's a maintenance guy.

He's worked there for 30 years.

We've known each other 17 years.

And when the first thing came out about Fred,

he had the article on his desk.

And I thought, well, that's weird.

Why would this guy have this article on his desk?

Well, it turns out that he was the guy that found the apartment on fire, that found Shelly, that actually knocked on Fred Lamb's door and caught Fred fully clothed clothed at 5 a.m.

and Fred wouldn't let him in his house.

Fred wouldn't,

you can't help her.

I'm a police officer.

You need to just leave everything alone, wait for the fire department to come.

Basically, it was trying to stop him.

But how crazy that this, and I've always wondered who was that man that helped, you know, helped us that day and tried to help Shelly.

And I worked with him for 17 years and never even knew it.

It's the strangest thing.

Are you okay if I record this phone call?

Yeah, I guess so.

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Pat Kalini, the maintenance guy, was a little more reluctant to talk than Michelle was.

He felt to me like a speak-only when you've got something to say kind of guy.

I haven't lived in the Mountain West for decades, but I'm familiar with the type.

Yet, when it came down to the morning Shelly was killed, Pat was full of details.

Well,

so

me and a buddy got up early

in the morning to go elk hunting, and he was running late, so I was took off to run down to the fly store

and drove right by the house and didn't see anything.

Went into the fly store for just a couple minutes and picked up some stuff for lunch and turned around and was

on my way back when I drove by the house and flames were shooting out the door and so I swung around and pulled up in front and jumped out and went running up to the house and right away saw Shelly

in on the floor

and

yelled at her and she didn't move so I tried to get in and I just stuck my head in the door and my hair started singing just barely even getting my head in the door.

So I just knew there was no way I was going to get all the way in.

So I

went running to the neighbors and started pounding on the door and a guy comes to the door

and I tell him that the apartment's on fire and I needed for him to get me towels and wet them so I can try to get in and

get the girl out.

He kind of he nodded and he would not move.

It wasn't doing anything.

And I think I actually just pushed him out of the way and went ran in his house and grabbed some towels and came back and by the time I got back over to the apartment my buddy had

showed up

and when he showed up he tried to do the same thing

and

we we it was just way too hot for us to get in

but um

so anyhow the the neighbor which I'm sure you've heard who that is, right?

Help me out here.

I'm trying to forgot his name.

Fred Lamb.

Yeah, Fred Lamb.

And he was just like,

he was just out of it.

And

obviously my adrenaline was pumping like crazy, and he wasn't moving and helping me.

And I was going crazy to try to get in there.

And you could literally see the flames coming out of the door.

The door was open.

The window was busted out from the living room.

So flames were coming out and I don't even remember him sticking his head out the door to look over

which was just

driving me crazy and

I remember standing at his door

and we could see where someone was hitting the door with a bloody hand

and then there was a big pool of blood and then you could see where obviously she was had hit the ground and then was drugged back over to her apartment.

I mean, we were so blown away by the blood on the sidewalk that

we thought it was just an innocent accident that her place got on fire and

that she

had gotten smoke inhalation and passed out or something.

That's kind of where we were at until we saw that blood, and then we were like, holy

shit, what the hell is going on here?

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So the fire department showed us up and

they took a statement and got our names and everything and said that they would be in touch.

So we went hunting and then came back later

and they called us and asked us to come in.

So we went in

and

one of the first things I told him was the neighbor, I go, you got to check this guy out.

He just seemed just guilty as hell.

He knew something and would not help.

And

the detective was like, you don't worry about him.

He's a police officer and you don't need to worry about him.

And when they told me that, I just came unglued.

I was like, what the hell are you talking about?

That makes it even worse that he never even stepped out of his apartment, that he couldn't come over and help me if you tell him he's a cop.

So I was just livid, and they

calmed me down.

And so we talked about every, you know, everything.

And then that's when they told me that

she was already dead when I saw her,

which me and my buddy both didn't have a clue of that.

We thought she might be still alive, and we couldn't get in to get her, so it was just killing us all day long.

But anyhow, that's, I mean,

I don't know if you guys,

and that's pretty much all I know.

Well, let me, I'm letting you just talk.

Let me ask you a few follow-up questions.

Do you remember talking about the guy?

Do you remember t having that conversation?

Like what a what a strange encounter?

Yeah, I mean, that was the first place I was going with those when the uh detectives were talking to me that night.

So

And did you hear anything from them after that?

Um

I don't think we did.

I don't remember them contacting us

until,

holy cow, what was it,

twenty some years later when Terry opened it back up again.

What do you think about that?

Well, actually, now that you ask it, it seems awfully strange.

I just, yeah, I mean, I always thought that was always just so weird, although, you know, they they came out in the papers and they I remember them saying, you know, they thought it was a truck driver and this and that.

And

we always would talk and wonder who the heck it could have been, and just figured it was like the police were saying that they thought it was a passerby, you know, someone traveling through, and they were gone.

But I still, you know,

I never did get any answers.

So,

yeah.

And here we are.

You know, and that

was just absolutely so maddening for, you know, Michelle and I that,

you know, Detective Terry told us a lot of the stuff that he had.

And it's like, holy cow, man, this almost seems like an open and closed case.

And

then the paper even put in his

statement that, yeah, yeah, I did.

Do you remember how he worded that?

It was like, yeah, yeah, I did.

Saying that I did this wouldn't, like, yeah, what was it exactly?

Let me find that.

Yeah, yeah, I did this.

Yeah, his lawyer argued that he was browbeaten.

That he was what?

Brow beaten because he, like,

that he was, you know, an old man who was diabetic, was hungry, and didn't understand, you know, was talked to for seven hours.

And so, you know, basically all this stuff was taken out of context.

So,

yeah, so

I didn't hear any of that.

Yeah, okay, this is what it says in the story from the

boomerang.

According to the documents, during a police interview, Lamb initially denied the homicide allegation, but later said, quote, Fred Lamb did it.

dot, dot, dot.

I'm not denying that I did it, unquote, and quote.

And, quote, bottom line is, I killed the girl, unquote, the document state.

Lamb consistently denied remembering the crime itself.

Wow, yes.

That's why, you know, this came out just a while after we had met with

Terry, and we were all like, yes, this is going to be over in no time, and then nothing.

Yeah.

There wasn't a whole lot more reporting I could do from my apartment in Brooklyn.

Police reports, court filings, none of that was online.

Neither were the news reports from back in the day.

But lucky for me, it was March 2021, and the vaccines were rolling out in New York.

The country was starting to open up again.

So,

first stop is

vaccine and then Laramie, right?

Directly, just directly.

Directly.

Vaccine me.

I had a little vacation time.

Two parents who lived across the country who I hadn't seen in more than a year.

I figured I'd pack up my dog Lucy, grab my friend Jasmine, and go on a road trip.

Make a pit stop in Laramie, poke around a little, see what I could see.

All right, Lucy, what do you think?

It's one very concerned bulldog.

Yeah, it's a very concerned bulldog.

Okay, so I think it would just go like this with the card.