301: Dylan Addresses Kohberger, Teen Kills on Family Vacation & 5 Arrested in Twisted Professor Murder

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Speaker 2 Hey, True Crime Besties, welcome back to an all-new episode of Seriously.

Speaker 2 Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialously with me, Annie E.
Lise. And today we're going over headline highlights and we have so much to talk about.

Speaker 2 We're going to talk about Brian Koberger's sentencing, the victim impact statements, this crazy case where like a 17-year-old apparently like decided to randomly kill this woman while he was out on a family vacation.

Speaker 2 We're going to talk about new cases that are breaking. So many wild things.
Our correspondent, Madison, was also in the courtroom for sentencing for the victim impact statements.

Speaker 2 So she's going to be joining us again and breaking down everything that went on, the emotion in the courtroom, and what that was like yesterday.

Speaker 2 However, if you're watching the video version of this, you can tell I'm not in my normal set. I'm not even at a desk anywhere.
I'm on my phone because I am packing right now, heading out for tour.

Speaker 2 We've got a couple cities left, Boston, DC, and Philadelphia. I think we're sold out.
We might have a few more tickets, but doing this off the cuff because I'm on the road.

Speaker 2 So we are going to jump into all the things headline highlights today, and we have got a lot to talk about. Okay, so this first case, I want to just give a bit of a trigger warning for.

Speaker 2 It's very difficult to hear and it's very traumatic and heartbreaking. So I want to give you a warning.
I know they all are, but this one especially.

Speaker 2 So 32-year-old Charmaine Forpohl was a beloved single mother of five.

Speaker 2 She lived in Cleveland in the old Brooklyn neighborhood with her kids, and she had this round face, dark brown, curly hair, deep brown eyes.

Speaker 2 She had tattoos on her neck and her chest, and she liked to wear a lot of jewelry, just was always done up and looked ready to go all the time.

Speaker 2 She also had a very big smile, but you could tell in all of the photos that she smiled the biggest whenever she was around her children.

Speaker 2 Now, Charmaine's kids, as I said, she was a single mother of five.

Speaker 2 She had a seven-year-old named Harlem, a nine-year-old named Honesty, 11-year-old Anastasia, 12-year-old Nikia, and the oldest, 15-year-old Theodosis Jr.

Speaker 2 Now, they had all recently moved into this new neighborhood together, and they really did love just how quiet and peaceful everything was.

Speaker 2 And like I said, raising her children, it was everything to Charmaine.

Speaker 2 However, on July 10th, everything was about to change because just steps away from her front door, Charmaine was brutally stabbed.

Speaker 2 murdered, and all of her children, all five of them, were at home at the time. And remember, she had some young kids too.
They ranged in ages from from 7 to 15 years old.

Speaker 2 And they were all there once this happened. She had been stabbed multiple times too.
And by the time that the police finally responded and found her body, it was too late.

Speaker 2 Her five kids just had to sit there, horrified, and watch their mother die quite literally right in front of them. Which I cannot even begin to imagine that kind of trauma.

Speaker 2 Which, this begs the question, right? I mean, who could have possibly done such a horrific thing, something so insanely horrible? Well, sure enough, it was none other than an ex-boyfriend.

Speaker 2 Now, let's talk about him for a moment, because 44-year-old Charles Barkley, not to be confused with the NBA player, he was arrested last week and he was charged in connection to Charmaine's murder.

Speaker 2 According to friends and family, Charles and Charmaine were, quote, briefly romantically involved.

Speaker 2 So we don't know what the exact history was, if it was on again, off again, if it was toxic, if it was something very surface level. It's unclear.

Speaker 2 But the big question that we don't even really necessarily need answers to about their relationship, the question we need answered is like, what could have driven this man to brutally murder this woman right in front of her five young kids and right at her own house?

Speaker 2 I mean, what made this guy snap? There, I'm sure, will be more details that come out as this investigation goes forward.

Speaker 2 But for now, her five kids are trying to adjust to a new life that unfortunately doesn't include their own mother.

Speaker 2 Now, Charmaine's best friend, Sierra, has started a fundraiser for the five kids, and she says that she really wants this money to go towards the children so that they have a good education and just kind of all around ensure their well-being.

Speaker 2 She also wants to keep Charmaine's memory alive, especially for her youngest kids.

Speaker 2 She said, quote, I'm worried about making sure that her memory stays alive for her younger children, because when you lose someone that young, eventually the memories start to fade.

Speaker 2 Now, Sierra was also on the phone with Charmaine just minutes before the attack. I mean, literal minutes.
So she was absolutely in shock that she had just hung up the phone with her.

Speaker 2 And then a few minutes later, Charmaine was brutally attacked and murdered. Charmaine's younger sister, Skye, is also completely shocked and devastated by her sister's murder.
I mean, of course.

Speaker 2 And she said that since her death, she's even been going back and scrolling through all of their old text messages and photos together.

Speaker 4 I know you're playing.

Speaker 4 This gotta be a dream. When I need something, that's why I'm FaceTiming.
Like, how I make this, how I do this. Like, I can't do that anymore.
It's like, who I got.

Speaker 2 There has been no statement released from Charles, the police, or any lawyers so far in terms of updates in the case. But we do know that her funeral is scheduled to be held on July 26th.

Speaker 2 So I hope that we get more answers and her children get more clarity as to what happened to their mother, or I should say, why this happened to their mother.

Speaker 2 And I hope that Charles is just fully held accountable because what a freaking monster. Now moving into this next case, it's kind of complex and a little wild.

Speaker 2 I had to do some digging to figure out what was really going on here because I could have sworn that when I saw the headline, I was like, there is no way that this is accurate.

Speaker 2 Like it's right out of a movie. But sure enough, it is real.
So Shomashaw Jjorski was a Poland native and he taught at the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley.

Speaker 2 Now to his friends and family, because he had such a big full name, he usually just went by PJ for short. So that's what I'm going to just refer to him as during today's episode.

Speaker 2 But anyway, he was 43 years old, and everybody just loved him. He was a professor, he was well liked by the school, his colleagues, everybody.

Speaker 5 And here's actually how one of his colleagues described him: All the wonderful people that I met and

Speaker 5 got to learn how

Speaker 5 he was loved. It's just,

Speaker 5 I guess,

Speaker 5 that is is something

Speaker 5 that

Speaker 5 I found amazing about this whole situation. I knew he was great, but seeing what others say about him just makes me think that he was 100 times better than what I even thought.

Speaker 2 So, just recently, he had fulfilled his lifelong dream of making a life for himself in the United States, and he bought his very own home in San Francisco.

Speaker 2 And let me just say, PJ all around was kind of like just a nice-looking man. He had fair skin, brown eyes, salt and pepper hair.

Speaker 2 He was an associate professor of marketing, just absolutely loved his job. And in addition to his job, he absolutely loved his two children.

Speaker 2 He had two young kids, 10-year-old twins, and he had these kids with his ex-wife.

Speaker 2 Now, the twins were born in San Francisco, but when PJ and their mother got a divorce, she took the kids back to her home country of Greece. She maintained full custody of their kids.

Speaker 2 And to be honest, she also didn't really want PJ taking the kids on summer vacations, having access to them.

Speaker 2 I mean, reportedly, she just didn't really want him seeing the kids at all for whatever reason. So whenever he did want to see his kids, PJ would have to make the trip all the way to Greece.

Speaker 2 Well, on July 4th, PJ had actually made a trip to Greece to see his kids, like he was planning to do. But also, it was to attend a custody hearing.

Speaker 2 PJ and his ex-wife were meant to meet and talk about a change in the custody rulings.

Speaker 2 And while custody battles are devastating and yes, very exhausting, absolutely nothing could prepare PJ for what was going to happen to him while he was in Greece.

Speaker 2 Because one day while he was just walking casually in a little suburb of Athens, which was not too far from his ex-wife's house, all of a sudden a man with his face completely covered approached PJ and he shot him square in the chest and in the back, seemingly for no reason at all.

Speaker 2 PJ was also just literally feet away from his ex-wife's house. He was going there for a scheduled visit with his children.

Speaker 2 And then this random guy just walks up to him and shoots him point blank in the chest and in the back.

Speaker 2 I mean, I don't know if you want to talk about timing, coincidence, or maybe not a coincidence at all, but just devastating.

Speaker 2 I mean, he flew all the way to Greece trying to see his children, go to this custody arrangement and this meeting, and then he just gets shot before he can even see his kids there.

Speaker 2 Now, once his ex-wife learned that he had been shot, she went directly to the local police, apparently, and handed over her phone, saying, Look at my phone, anything that can help out.

Speaker 2 Like, I just want to help. Let's figure out who did this.
She also, of course, denied knowing anything or having any involvement. She just wanted to be as cooperative as possible.

Speaker 2 And in the meantime, PJ's kids, his family, and all of his friends back home were in just absolute shock.

Speaker 2 I mean, their father, their professor, he was just gone, quite literally murdered in cold blood, and seemingly for no reason at all.

Speaker 2 However, the detectives were not buying this random act of violence theory. So they decided that they were going to keep digging into the case.

Speaker 2 And sure enough, last week, it was announced that five people had been arrested in connection to PJ's murder.

Speaker 2 And maybe this isn't surprising to anyone listening because we have talked about cases like this before. But one of those five people, sure enough, was PJ's ex-wife.

Speaker 2 Now, here's where it gets complex and a little bit crazy in my opinion. Along with with his ex-wife, the four others who were arrested were the ex-wife's new boyfriend, two Albanians, and a Bulgarian.

Speaker 2 So, the wife is suspected to have orchestrated and planned this entire murder, all while her boyfriend is said to have been the shooter.

Speaker 2 The other people involved are also said to have been the ones to provide the gun that was used to shoot him, help concoct the plan, and knew about the plan.

Speaker 2 So, as this investigation was ongoing, and after looking into their very contentious custody battle, the investigators found out a little bit more, a little bit more to explain what was going on here possibly.

Speaker 2 They found out that in last May, JP applied for a restraining order against his ex-wife and in his request he was accusing her of not only making threats but also attempting extortion.

Speaker 2 He also said that her new boyfriend had assaulted him twice while he was there visiting his kids.

Speaker 2 Now all of their identities have not exactly been released yet, but the five suspects are currently behind bars as the investigation is continuing.

Speaker 2 And as of right now, the two younger kids are in Greek child custody. However, PJ's brother is currently trying to adopt them and gain custody.

Speaker 2 His brother has also created an online fundraiser to help pay for the funeral and for the legal costs, but this is what it says on the website.

Speaker 2 I just want to read it verbatim for you because it gives a little bit more context. It says, My brother PJ was tragically murdered in Athens on July 4th, 2025.

Speaker 2 He was a devoted father of two young children, my niece and nephew, and he was a brilliant scholar in economics and marketing, serving as a professor at the School of Business at Berkeley.

Speaker 2 On July 16th, Greek authorities arrested five individuals suspected in connection with the crime. Among them is PJ's ex-wife, the mother of his children.
Our family is devastated.

Speaker 2 This was a premeditated and horrific, cold-blooded murder. We are, however, deeply grateful to the Greek police for their swift and diligent work in identifying and arresting those responsible.

Speaker 2 My top priority now is the safety and the future of PJ's children. They are currently under the care of Greek child services.
They are supervised by professional social workers.

Speaker 2 I am fully committed to adopting and raising them. This is what my brother would have wanted.

Speaker 2 Thanks to your generous donations, I have been able to secure a criminal lawyer to support the prosecution and to cover the costs of bringing PJ's remains back to Poland.

Speaker 2 Now I face an ongoing legal process that spans three countries, his estate in the U.S., his children in Greece, and our family in Poland.

Speaker 2 I am raising funds to cover the legal expenses related to custody proceedings and to the estate and probate matters, efforts that are essential to securing the children's future.

Speaker 2 Your support means the world to our family. With gratitude, Lucas.

Speaker 2 Now I can't imagine, I feel like this must be so difficult for his family to be going through. And I also can't imagine how difficult it is for their kids.

Speaker 2 I mean, they must be terrified, but also his family.

Speaker 2 And for them to know that the main suspect is the mother of his children, I would imagine all you want in that moment is to just get the kids to safety, right?

Speaker 2 And of course, get justice, but it must just be absolutely heartbreaking for them.

Speaker 2 So I'm definitely going to be keeping an eye on this case and all of the updates because all of it is just, it's so absurd and so crazy, but the investigation investigation is ongoing.

Speaker 2 So I'm sure that a lot of new details will begin to surface and kind of, you know, work their way through the funnels. But now let's move into a next case.
And this case is taking us to New York.

Speaker 2 And this guy apparently went on a full-blown killing spree. Killing spree of his wives, which yes, you heard that right, wives, plural.
So let's start at the beginning.

Speaker 2 Now, this case goes back to 2023. And a man named Timothy Taylor was living in Brooklyn, Brooklyn, New York.
And let me just say, this guy is nothing but bad news.

Speaker 2 Timothy was living in Brooklyn with his current wife, Teresa, at the time. And Teresa was a mother of two, and she was working as a special officer for the Department of Homeless Services.

Speaker 2 However, all of that changed in May of 2023. You see, for some reason, Timothy snapped and he stabbed Teresa, killing her.
And Timothy was kind of in shock at what he had just done.

Speaker 2 It was almost as though he snapped out of nowhere and then in hindsight, he was like realizing what had happened, but he really did kill her completely out of nowhere.

Speaker 2 So while he was shocked and did feel apparently some kind of remorse, he also knew that he had to go on the run. And that's what he did.
He booked it. He ran.

Speaker 2 However, Timothy didn't just run straight into hiding and then like live life on the down low and try to go under the radar. Instead, he decided that his little murdering streak should continue on.

Speaker 2 So now he was heading out of Brooklyn and he turned his attention to upstate New York. Now you might be asking, okay, Annie, well, what was in upstate New York?

Speaker 2 Well, it was none other than Timothy's ex-wife and the mother of his children.

Speaker 2 So to catch you up right after killing his current wife, he decided to head to upstate New York to kill his ex-wife, as though everybody was wronging him and he just needed to like go on this murder spree.

Speaker 2 So Tishan, the mother of Timothy's children and his ex-wife, was just in her upstate home with her two kids, having no idea what was heading for her on May 27th.

Speaker 2 But sure enough, when that day arrived, Timothy went into her home unannounced and brutally stabbed her to death.

Speaker 2 Now, while she was getting attacked in a heroic but also very sad detail, all she cared about was protecting her two kids, shielding them, blocking them, making sure that he didn't go after the kids, that he only went after her.

Speaker 2 And after stabbing her 22 times, he finally fled the house, not touching or harming the children. But then after the attack, Timothy decided he needed to ditch his clothes.

Speaker 2 He went back to his hotel, he packed up his things, and then he hitched a ride on a bus. He ended up being arrested on June 2nd after the police found him in a bar in Philadelphia.

Speaker 2 They brought him back to New York, where he now is facing his charges.

Speaker 2 Now, speaking to the backstory of everything here, Timothy and Teshaan had been married for about 10 years before they divorced, but you also wouldn't be surprised to know that the couple did have multiple domestic violence incidents.

Speaker 2 However, the whole killing spree of it all with Timothy kind of just has me baffled a bit.

Speaker 2 I mean, this guy literally killed his wife, then kind of just what, turned around and was like, yeah, let me go kill my ex-wife too while I'm at it. Like, I'm going to do it in front of my kids too.

Speaker 2 Who cares? Let me just kill all these people since I've already killed one. It makes absolutely no sense.

Speaker 2 So now Timothy has finally gone to trial and he's pleading guilty to the murder murder charges. And you're not going to believe what he told the detectives in all of this.

Speaker 2 Let me just kind of read you a quote that was in the press release.

Speaker 2 It says, Timothy told the detectives that after he had killed his then-current wife, he felt bad and he knew that he had to go to upstate New York to kill his former wife because he had harbored so much animosity towards her.

Speaker 2 And in his words, she, unlike his first victim, deserved it. Which, can you even believe that? He's like, I shouldn't have killed my current wife.

Speaker 2 I feel so much remorse, but you know who I am going to kill? I'm going to go kill my ex-wife because she deserves it. I mean, how do you rationalize that?

Speaker 2 So Timothy ended up taking a plea deal, which will sentence him to 22 years to life in prison. And his sentencing is currently scheduled for September 16th.
So we will see what happens there.

Speaker 2 I mean, this guy deserves to rot. What a complete asshole.
I mean, who does that? Who murders the two most significant women in your life? He clearly has issues.

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Speaker 2 Now, this next case is all around crazy, and it's again, one that I saw breaking a little bit last week, and I just didn't know what was happening and if it was real or not.

Speaker 2 But ah, sure enough, it is real. So earlier this month, something very, very mysterious and eerie happened in a small coastal town in Maine.

Speaker 2 It was July 2nd, and a 48-year-old woman named Sunshine Stewart went out on this nice little trip on Crawford Pond on her paddleboard, get a little exercise, take in the scenes a little bit, just a relaxing little paddleboarding mission.

Speaker 2 Now, Sunshine was a carpenter who owned a construction business, and she was also a boat captain.

Speaker 2 She never did end up graduating from high school, but she did earn a degree in marine biology and she was just a true lover of nature.

Speaker 2 So she was staying at a campsite on the pond and she planned to stay there all summer.

Speaker 2 And she reportedly set out on her paddleboard between 6 and 9 p.m., just trying to go out, catch the sunset, you know, a nice evening ride where it's a little cool, a little relaxing.

Speaker 2 However, the thing was that after she set out on that peaceful sunset ride, she never returned. It was as if she disappeared.

Speaker 2 So the authorities were called shortly after she went missing and they began searching for her. They searched for hours, hours and hours.

Speaker 2 But then, finally, at around 1 a.m., they made a chilling discovery. They found Sunshine's dead body.

Speaker 2 So the investigators and the state police were called to the scene, and an autopsy was also performed on Sunshine. And after examining the body, it was confirmed that Sunshine had been murdered.

Speaker 2 This wasn't an accident. It's not like she tipped overboard and drowned or hit her head on something.
The cause of death was strangulation, also blunt force trauma.

Speaker 2 So the investigators then said that Sunshine's body was found under, quote, unusual circumstances, but they would not specifically say what that meant. And it really, it could mean anything.

Speaker 2 So members of this small town in Maine were not only shocked by this, but now at this point, terrified, because Sunshine was just one second setting out on this peaceful paddleboarding ride, but then all of a sudden she was murdered brutally.

Speaker 2 It was almost like all of a sudden their small community had a killer on the loose. So, how the hell did this happen?

Speaker 2 This woman who is in this safe area goes out for a ride at sunset on this pond and then just disappears into thin air, and then all of a sudden she turns up murdered?

Speaker 2 It all sounded like the start of a horror movie. And days went by with no information, no leads, no news.
But then, two weeks later, there was a break in the case.

Speaker 2 And in a very shocking update, just last Wednesday, someone was actually arrested in connection to her murder.

Speaker 2 And you will never believe this, but who they have arrested and charged with her murder is a 17-year-old boy. A child.
How could a child do this?

Speaker 2 Now, it's not entirely clear yet how they zeroed in on this suspect, but the boy was arrested last Wednesday around 10:30 p.m.

Speaker 2 The suspect, whose name is Devin Young, was taken to the Long Creek Youth Development Center in South Portland.

Speaker 2 But other than that, there really hasn't been any other details that have been released about him. But what was shared is pretty chilling.

Speaker 2 It's that Devin is from Maine and he was actually in that pond area to spend time with his family.

Speaker 2 He was there on summer vacation with his family and somehow then it ended in him being arrested and charged with murder, which it's like, so was he just on this camping trip with his family and then he saw this opportunity to kill a woman or to maybe try to assault her and then kill her?

Speaker 2 We don't know. Like I said, a lot of details are still just coming out, but this case is so eerie because there's still so many unanswered questions.

Speaker 2 Again, I mean, the sheer fact of this suspect being only 17 years old is crazy. And then it makes you wonder if they will end up charging Devin too as an adult or as a minor.

Speaker 2 I mean, he's almost an adult. And for a 17-year-old to allegedly strangle and beat a woman to death, seemingly for no reason at all, that's chilling and very concerning.

Speaker 2 And then you also have to wonder, if Devin did in fact do this and he's found guilty, what on earth drove him to do this?

Speaker 2 They seemingly had absolutely no relation to one another, no known contact, no known relationship at all. So why would he kill her in such a brutal way?

Speaker 2 And like we always say, strangulation, that is personal, that's up close, and that takes time.

Speaker 2 To wrap your hands around somebody's neck for minutes while you're just looking at them in the eye, that is very personal.

Speaker 2 It also begs the question, was this the first time that Devon has ever harmed a human being? And what also shocked people who knew Sunshine was that Sunshine was a very capable woman.

Speaker 2 She was strong, she was athletic, and she was in amazing shape. So people are wondering not only why, but how this 17-year-old brutally killed her.

Speaker 2 And they are also wondering if he acted entirely alone. So these are all the questions that I hope are going to get answered relatively quickly in this investigation.

Speaker 2 But currently, Devin is being held in custody at the juvenile facility, and a ruling will be set on whether or not he's going to be charged as an adult or a minor.

Speaker 2 The investigation into the murder remains active and ongoing, and Devin's next hearing is scheduled for August 22nd.

Speaker 2 Sunshine's friends want her to be remembered for her spirit and for her beautiful personality. It's haunting, you know,

Speaker 11 to know that we were just there a few days before.

Speaker 11 And she invites me out and she says, Listen, and then we sit and we listen to the coyotes, and then all of a sudden, like an owl comes in, and they're kind of singing their songs together.

Speaker 11 All I can say is, I do imagine that she put up one hell of a fight,

Speaker 3 you know.

Speaker 11 She was

Speaker 11 a fierce woman. Again, that you know,

Speaker 3 quote of her being unapologetically alive.

Speaker 11 If everybody can

Speaker 11 dive deep into themselves and understand what that means, if anything comes

Speaker 11 from losing Sonny, that's the part that needs to grow in our society.

Speaker 2 I definitely will be keeping an eye out on this case for updates because it's so creepy and so just like

Speaker 2 muddy, right? Like, what's really going on here? Why did this guy do it? Was it just, if he did do it, was it just a crime of opportunity? What did he have helped? He was on a family vacation.

Speaker 2 Why would he break away to then just like go murder this 49-year-old woman? It makes no sense. So we'll see what comes out of this and what details we learn.

Speaker 2 But in the meantime, Thoughts and prayers are with Sunshine's friends and family. And I hope that this investigation is able to give them answers and some peace.

Speaker 2 Now, the Brian Koberger sentencing just happened yesterday as well. And I want to talk to you all about that.

Speaker 2 We also had our correspondent, Madison, in the courtroom again to not only witness the sentencing, but Brian's behavior, the victim impact statements, and everything that went along with it.

Speaker 2 So I'm going to have her join and share firsthand what that was like, the emotion in the courtroom, the

Speaker 2 just...

Speaker 2 very impactful statements and everything that was felt in those moments.

Speaker 3 Hey, Annie, it's Madison. I just left Brian Koberger's sentencing hearing in Boise, Idaho.
We had a very emotional day.

Speaker 3 I think every emotion that I could feel was probably felt in the few hours that I was there. But overall, it was definitely an overwhelming sense of power and community support.

Speaker 3 There were well over a hundred people there and quite a few of them that I spoke with were not part of the media. They were just there to support and be a friendly face for the victims' families.

Speaker 3 To know that they're loved and the community really has their back throughout this whole thing. We started off with Bethany and Dylan, the two surviving roommates' victim impact statements.

Speaker 3 Both were very, very sad. They both were sobbing as they read these papers and didn't look up until they were done to go sit back down.

Speaker 3 Immediately gave a very heavy vibe to the entire hearings throughout the courtroom, throughout people that were in the overflow room with me, and

Speaker 3 just

Speaker 3 the emotion was radiating.

Speaker 7 They say I'm a survivor, but they don't see what my new reality looks like. They don't see the panic attacks, the hypervigilance, the exhaustion,

Speaker 7 the way I scan every room I enter,

Speaker 7 the way I flinch at sudden sounds.

Speaker 3 They don't know how

Speaker 7 heavy it is to carry so much pain and still be expected to keep going, and that's because of him.

Speaker 7 He still parts at me, I may never get back.

Speaker 7 He took the version of me who didn't constantly ask, what if it happens again?

Speaker 7 What if next time I don't survive?

Speaker 3 But Dylan kind of kicked off the sense of power when she referred to Koberger in third person. And she says, he will stay here, empty, forgotten, and powerless.

Speaker 3 Referring to him in third person when he's sitting literally, maybe six feet in front of her, as if he doesn't exist. He's not there.
He is forgotten. He is powerless.

Speaker 3 And that immediately sets off this sense of, I'm taking back control of how I feel about this situation, and it's my turn to speak on it.

Speaker 3 This was also kind of the first dig or insult at Koberger, and you can tell that he didn't like it. He really looked like he was

Speaker 3 maybe upset by it. He kind of furrowed his brow a little bit, but he was definitely trying to hide that he didn't like that statement.
The Mogans came next.

Speaker 3 They also focused a lot on the victims and Maddie specifically sharing happy memories rather than talking to or about Koberger.

Speaker 3 The two things that really stood out to me about the Mogans statements were when her stepdad says that they support the plea agreement and Koberger gave kind of a nod of approval, like just one down and one up, not

Speaker 3 too much, but just a little bit of a nod.

Speaker 3 That kind of gave me the chills because I don't like that. I don't like that he

Speaker 3 even felt so empowered for one second to be like, yeah, you do. Yeah, you agree with the plea agreement.
I took that. That's kind of the vibe that I was getting off of him when he did that.

Speaker 3 And it really just

Speaker 3 gave me chills. I didn't, nope, didn't like it.

Speaker 3 The other thing that stood out to me was Maddie's biological father when he said, a death sentence is final, but life in prison with a bunch of people who don't want you there, waking up not knowing if they are going to pull your card that day is just as bad.

Speaker 3 Again, another sense of power and kind of

Speaker 3 you're stuck with this either way. You could have had the death penalty, but you took this and you're still going to suffer because of it.

Speaker 3 Because who knows, one of these days, somebody might get you in prison. I don't know.
It really just kind of continued that sense of

Speaker 3 you did this and now you have to face it. And you're nothing.
But really, the biggest thing, and I could go on about this forever, is the Gonzalvez family.

Speaker 3 They, I feel, left the biggest mark on that courtroom today.

Speaker 3 Now, just a couple of days ago, I believe it might have even been a week ago now. They were saying that they weren't going to make any statements.
It was undecided if they were even going to show up.

Speaker 3 They didn't show up at the plea agreement hearing either, which was a few weeks ago. They

Speaker 3 made

Speaker 3 a huge impact on that courtroom today.

Speaker 3 Starting with Kaylee's dad, he steps up to the podium, which, by the way, has a sign on it that says do not move, and he moves it. He turns it to the left to directly face Koberger.

Speaker 3 Face to face, Koberger can't look away. He is very, I'm here now.
You're going to listen to me. And

Speaker 3 everybody, I was in the overflow room, everybody around me

Speaker 3 just

Speaker 3 started cheering almost, I guess.

Speaker 3 Everybody was saying, go, Steve, heck yeah. Like, oh my gosh, this is really happening.
Like, he means business.

Speaker 3 And even the way that it left an impact on everybody in the room that I was in was just amazing. Boberger did not break eye contact with Kaylee's dad, not one time,

Speaker 3 which was new because for a few impact statements before Kaylee's dad, Koberger had been uncomfortable.

Speaker 3 He was fidgeting in his chair, he was looking at the table, looking away, whatever he could do to kind of

Speaker 3 not be there.

Speaker 3 But with Kaylee's dad, he looked him directly in the face and he did not break eye contact. And that was

Speaker 3 something new.

Speaker 12 Today, we are here to finish what what you started.

Speaker 12 Today

Speaker 5 you've lost control.

Speaker 12 Today we are here to prove to the world that you picked the wrong families.

Speaker 12 The wrong state, the wrong police officers,

Speaker 12 the wrong community.

Speaker 12 You tried to break our community apart. You tried to plant fear.
You tried to divide us. You failed.

Speaker 12 Instead, your actions have united everyone in their disgust for you. We were united in our disgust

Speaker 12 and our love for these children.

Speaker 12 Today, you have no name.

Speaker 12 Because when this all started, we all came together and we said, let's stop even talking about his name and just use initials.

Speaker 12 See, even the media just calls you BK.

Speaker 12 That's all you are.

Speaker 12 Looking back when the police officers knocked on my door,

Speaker 12 told me what happened to my child, told me what happened to Maddie Mae,

Speaker 12 I don't think he was even out of the driveway before my kids turned around, looked at me, and said, what do we do, Dad?

Speaker 12 I told them, you get to work.

Speaker 12 You get your ass to work. And we started calling, we started texting, we started emailing.
And you know what? Within hours, within hours, we had your white car on camera.

Speaker 12 We knew, we knew from the very beginning we had you.

Speaker 12 Police officers tell us within minutes, they had your DNA, like a calling card. You were that careless, that foolish, that stupid.

Speaker 12 Master degree, you're a joke. Complete joke.
The world's watching because of the kids, not because of you.

Speaker 12 Nobody cares about you.

Speaker 12 You're not worth the time, the effort to be remembered.

Speaker 12 In time, you will be nothing but two initials forgotten to the wind. No visitors, nothing more than initials on an otherwise unmarked tombstone.

Speaker 3 By far, I would say Haley's sister, Olivia, gave the strongest, most powerful statement of them all. And I'm sure there's going to be clips of it going around, but she

Speaker 3 used her words in such a way that it laid it against Koberger a little bit differently.

Speaker 3 For example, when this all started, there were those anonymous 4chan posts and like Reddit or whatever else that now people think were Koberger. I know, Anna, you've talked about it a little bit.

Speaker 3 And she uses these posts about committing the perfect crime when he's asking people, What would your weapon of choice be? And what would you wear? And whatever else he asks.

Speaker 3 I don't remember all of them right now. She uses these against him in his own words, multiple, one after another, after another.

Speaker 3 But she uses them in a sense that she's turning them back around on him. And the one that I remember word for word is, What was your weapon of choice against my sister? And

Speaker 3 he, at this point, just looks down. He doesn't look at her.
He looks looks back up eventually, but he really doesn't want to acknowledge that these are his words that are being used against him.

Speaker 3 She also, at the end of it, says, let me be clear, if you wouldn't have attacked them in the middle of the night like a PEDO,

Speaker 3 Kaylee would have kicked your effing ass. And that was the biggest mic drop of the day.

Speaker 3 Everybody, again, just the same way that when Steve stepped up to the podium and moved it, everybody in the overflow room when Kaylee's sister says this is amazed, just in shock.

Speaker 3 This is very in your face. You're going to listen to me.
This is my floor now. At one point, she even says, sit up straight when you listen to me talk.
And she held the power in these moments.

Speaker 3 And it was so incredible to witness.

Speaker 13 My sister, Kaylee, and her best friend, Maddie, were not yours to take.

Speaker 2 They were not yours to study, to stalk, or to silence.

Speaker 13 They were two pieces of a whole, the perfect yin and yang. They are everything that you could never be.
Loved, accepted, vibrant, accomplished, brave, and powerful.

Speaker 13 Because the truth about Kaylee and Maddie is they would have been kind to you.

Speaker 13 If you had approached them in their everyday lives, they would have given you directions, thanked you for the compliment, or awkwardly giggled to make your own words less uncomfortable for you.

Speaker 13 In a world that rejected you, they would have shown mercy. I won't stand here and give you what you want.
I won't offer you tears, I won't offer you trembling.

Speaker 13 Disappointments like you thrive on pain, on fear, and on the illusion of power.

Speaker 13 And I won't feed your beast.

Speaker 13 Instead, I will call you what you are:

Speaker 13 sociopath, psychopath, murderer. You're terrified of being ordinary, aren't you?

Speaker 13 Do you feel anything at all?

Speaker 13 Or are you exactly what you always feared? Nothing. You didn't win.
You just exposed yourself as the coward you are. You're a delusional, pathetic, hypochondriac loser.

Speaker 13 You act like no one could ever understand your mind, but the truth is you're basic.

Speaker 13 You're a textbook case of insecurity disguised as control. Your patterns are predictable.
Your motives are shallow. You are not profound.
You're pathetic. The truth is, you're as dumb as they come.

Speaker 3 Stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty.

Speaker 13 Let me be very clear. Don't ever try to convince yourself you mattered.
just because someone finally said your name out loud. I see through you.

Speaker 13 You want the truth? Here's the one you'll hate the most. If you hadn't attacked them in their sleep, in the middle of the night, like a pedophile, Kaylee would have kicked your fucking ass.

Speaker 3 At this point, also, the Gonzalveses are getting applause after their impact statements. Literal applause in the courtroom, not even just in the overflow room or wherever else.

Speaker 3 In the courtroom, they are applauding the Gonzalveses for their impact statements because they were so open and raw and powerful and everybody loved it.

Speaker 3 Kaylee's mom also did have some things to say to Brian. She ripped into him a little bit, but definitely not in the same way as

Speaker 3 her husband or Kaylee's sister did. Either way, all three of them left everybody absolutely in shock.
It was incredible to witness. Definitely, definitely something I will never forget.

Speaker 3 The last set of victim impact statements were from Xana's family. And at this point, the tone kind of shifts back to sad but forgiving.

Speaker 3 In fact, Xana's aunt tells Brian and referring to him by name, Brian, I have forgiven you. And if you ever need my phone number, if you ever need a listening ear, I will give that to you.

Speaker 3 I will be that person. I will listen to you because I've forgiven you for what you've done.
Basically, everybody needs somebody to listen. And if you need that, I'm here.

Speaker 3 Xana's uncle then gives a different perspective on it and and says that he doesn't want to talk about their families. He doesn't want to talk about the victims.
He wants to talk about Brian.

Speaker 3 He wants to talk about Kohlberger ruining his own family reputation and his own family name. So much so to the point that nobody wants to be associated with them just because of that last name now.

Speaker 3 And I think, I mean, immediately that started some interesting conversation in the overflow room where I am, because I don't think anybody was expecting that, but it gave it a little bit of a, like I said, a different perspective.

Speaker 3 Zanna's stepdad was one of the last ones to speak.

Speaker 3 And he said that

Speaker 3 he didn't have much to say to Koberger because the statement that he wrote probably would get him kicked out of the courtroom.

Speaker 3 But what he did want to say was that he would do anything to take him into the woods and teach him about pain, but that he wouldn't kill him because that's God's judgment call.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 that also, the same way that the things that the Gonzalves family were saying was such an in-your-face power move. Like, you're going to listen to me.
This is what I have to say to you.

Speaker 3 I want to teach you how you made me feel, but I'm not going to kill you because that's not my call to make.

Speaker 2 So, so powerful.

Speaker 3 Just the entire day full of emotions, happy memories, the very in-your-face, like you're going to listen to me now,

Speaker 3 but also sad, obviously, given the circumstances,

Speaker 3 very somber. After all of the victim impact statements were read, the state re-explains how the plea deal came about and what it consisted of.

Speaker 3 And while doing this, the prosecuting attorney showed pictures of each victim while reading their names, and he starts crying while he's showing their pictures.

Speaker 3 And he did this in the last hearing as well.

Speaker 3 The emotions throughout the last three and a half years are hitting everybody so hard in this one courtroom right now that even the prosecuting attorney, who is going after the man that murdered these four innocent college students, is crying just while showing their pictures.

Speaker 3 He then shows the infamous picture of all six roommates the day before the murders happened, and Koberger looks away. Koberger looks at the picture for maybe 15 seconds.
Maybe, that's being generous.

Speaker 3 And then he looks down at the table for the next four to five minutes that it's still up on the projector and he does not look at the picture again.

Speaker 3 This is the only time that I feel Brian showed any true emotion. I don't want to say remorse remorse because he wasn't remorseful, but it was like shame.

Speaker 3 Like he did not under any circumstances want to look at that picture. He was going to do everything it took to not put his eyes on the projector screen.
Very, very scary, very eerie.

Speaker 3 Not even scary, just eerie. Strange.
He was asked if he would like to make a statement and he said, I respectfully decline.

Speaker 3 And at this point, everybody in the overflow room that I was in is going, oh my God, of course not. Of course not.
What a coward.

Speaker 12 All right, Mr. Koberger, you have an opportunity to make a statement if you wish to.
I take it you are declining.

Speaker 3 I respectfully decline. Judge Hipler then started reading the official sentencing and he got emotional as well.

Speaker 3 But he did say that he's not going to require Koberger to say the why because he doesn't want to give him the spotlight and he isn't sure that he would tell the truth anyway.

Speaker 3 He said it's time to end Mr. Koberger's 15 minutes of fame.

Speaker 3 He pointed out that he's shown zero remorse or emotion throughout the entire entire thing, kind of just giving one last jab of like, you're trash, you're nothing.

Speaker 3 Why couldn't you even show a little bit of remorse? Because he doesn't have remorse, maybe, because he's a freaking psychopath. Sorry.
Anyway, he then reads the sentence.

Speaker 3 Kohberger has officially been sentenced to four life sentences and 10 years for burglary, all running consecutive. He will be in prison for the rest of his life.

Speaker 3 I'm sure there will be more information that comes out in the near future.

Speaker 3 Steve Gonzalvez made a little bit of a statement outside of the courthouse that they do have information regarding the crime itself that was learned in the investigation that he couldn't talk about until the gag order was lifted.

Speaker 3 Some of those being

Speaker 3 a little bit more brutal details about how the murder was played out and you know the amount of wounds that each victim had or things like that.

Speaker 3 But the family attorney for the Gonsalveses did pull him aside and whisper something in his ear. And then he said, this is not the time to be talking about that.

Speaker 3 This is a time to heal and we are moving forward.

Speaker 3 So I'm sure we will hear more in, you know, the coming days, weeks, maybe even months as new things get released that we haven't heard about before because a lot of it was under seal or the gag order was in place.

Speaker 3 And, you know, overall, I think I'm very thankful for the experience to be there, but ultimately just glad that the victims' families were able to get this kind of off of their chest and say their piece to Koberger or about Koburger in some cases.

Speaker 3 And I would like to thank Annie for the opportunity to do this. This was very interesting, and I will talk to you soon.

Speaker 2 So, I'm curious to know what you guys think about that sentencing. Do you think it was just? Do you still wish that this had gone to trial and that he would have faced the death penalty?

Speaker 2 Obviously, a very emotional day, a lot of

Speaker 2 you know, just heartbreak in the room, and people still wanting answers and looking for clarity.

Speaker 2 And something that I mentioned last week, when we had first heard that the gag order was going to be lifted, I had gone on Patreon live and started talking with all of you guys on Patreon.

Speaker 2 And something that I had mentioned about this gag order is not only do people want it to be lifted so that we can have full transparency, not only for the public, but the family and everybody involved to see like, well, what really is the truth in this case?

Speaker 2 But I kind of, and I'm going to ramble for a second, so I apologize, but this this is kind of what I was rambling about on Patreon too, is I feel like this, the gag order and all of the details should have at least been made public to the families before sentencing.

Speaker 2 And the reason I say that is because, of course, they've had the opportunity to prepare these victim impact statements for however long they've been working on them.

Speaker 2 And of course they're going to be meaningful and powerful and

Speaker 2 be cathartic for them. However, and this is just my point of view, and this is, I'm speaking purely for myself here.

Speaker 2 Heaven forbid, if I was in a situation like that, and I was one of these family members or friends, I would feel almost as though I would need to know all of the details to give a full

Speaker 2 not even impactful statement, but like to feel some sort of sense of peace or closure.

Speaker 2 Like, and again, I know I'm not really conveying this very well, but for example, like we don't know all the the details of how or why Brian started zeroing in on a particular target.

Speaker 2 We don't know how many times he cased the house exactly, what a surprise it was, how he first met that, all of these things.

Speaker 2 So it's like, yes, a victim impact statement can be prepared and you can look him dead in the eye and ream his ass and eviscerate him.

Speaker 2 However, if then you learn details after the sentencing, once the gag order is lifted and document by document, things are being unredacted and information is being being released there might be a lot of details for the family and friends where they would have maybe wanted to work that into their statement somehow for example if brian had say first gone to a house party at king road and that's when he first saw maddie or saw kaylee or just zeroed in on them as a whole as a group

Speaker 2 Maybe in your statement, you would work in like, you should have never even been at that party. You're a fucking loser who has no friends.
You shouldn't have been at that party. You're like a dweeb.

Speaker 2 Like, get out of here. Like, and again, not that saying those words makes anything any better.
I'm just trying to say, in obviously a very poor way, that details can be learned after the fact.

Speaker 2 And I think the family should have had all those details ahead of the victim impact statement so that they could make these statements as accurate and as powerful as possible so that there is no room for error or room for after the fact of them being like, man, I wish I had known all of these new details of XYZ because I would have addressed him in a different way or I would have said this certain thing to try to like, you know, poke him a little bit more or like just things like that.

Speaker 2 And so I just feel like my personal view on this whole thing is it has been so poorly,

Speaker 2 it's just been

Speaker 2 mishandled. That's what I'll say.

Speaker 2 I think mishandled because You are robbing families of trial, of facing their the accused person who did this to their loved ones, robbing them of details that maybe would help be cathartic for them and give them some more peace.

Speaker 2 And like,

Speaker 2 I understand the argument of, well, now we won't have to go through this lengthy trial.

Speaker 2 They won't have to go through all the horrible details and we could just put this to bed and end it and he'll be locked away forever and all these things.

Speaker 2 But that's not what's happening because it could literally take several months with this judge going paper by paper, document by document, unredacting it, approving, disapproving what's going to be released.

Speaker 2 It's like

Speaker 2 you're still

Speaker 2 keeping the family in a sense of purgatory. And

Speaker 2 Brian, once again, has control. It's just, I think it does not sit right with me, any of it.
And I get it. Who cares if it sits right with me or not? I'm not the one affected by this.

Speaker 2 But I know some of the other families do feel that same way. Some don't, which unfortunately, you're not all going to agree on everything all the time.
But I just think that that was, you know,

Speaker 2 not great and it could have been handled way differently. That's my opinion.
But like I said, I did all of this on Patreon live last week and where I just kind of like went off.

Speaker 2 And that's what I do enjoy about Patreon too. I'm able to go live whenever I want just from my phone.

Speaker 2 So if you haven't joined yet, maybe you should because we have a lot of conversations like that just off the cuff. We also have like a group chat where we're texting all day.

Speaker 2 So that's patreon.com slash Annie Elise. But anyway, thank you guys so much for tuning in.
I'm going to go get ready for this next show.

Speaker 2 And hopefully I'm seeing a couple of you guys at the remaining shows. I'll be in Boston tonight.
So I think we're sold out, but maybe there's a couple more tickets left.

Speaker 2 Then I will be in DC on Saturday night and Philadelphia on Sunday night. So grab your tickets, annieelise.com, go to the tour tab.

Speaker 2 I think we're sold out, but we might have a couple left and we might have a couple meet and greets left too. You could check.
It'll show you on the checkout page.

Speaker 2 But yeah, I'm going to get ready now and hit the stage. And I will talk with you guys very, very soon on Monday.
All right. Thanks so much.
Take care.

Speaker 2 Until the next one, be nice, don't kill people, and just be a good human.

Speaker 8 All right. Bye.

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