311: David Miscavige’s Niece Jenna Joins to Talk About Her Escape & His Dark Secrets

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Over the years, we've heard a lot about the Church of Scientology.

Jenna Miscavige Hill spent more than 20 years in the church with her uncle.

Well, thank you very much.

As a child, I was only allowed to see my parents for a few hours once a week.

There's not an exact criteria for evil, but I would definitely say, you know, somebody who makes rules that thousands and thousands of people can't have children and runs a church where there's child labor, forced and coerced abortions.

If that's not evil, then what is, you know?

Hey, True Crime Besties, welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialously.

Hello, hello, hello.

Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialistly with me, your host, Annie Elise.

And guys, today we have got a very special episode, a very important episode.

For those of you who have been listening to my podcast for a while, you know I'm really fascinated with cults.

Like, I want to know how they operate, how they tick, how they recruit, the mentality behind it.

And I've done a lot of deep dives into cults too over the years, whether it's FLDS, maybe a different one, maybe drinking the Kool-Aid, Scientology, all the different ones.

And Scientology is one that we have talked about a few times on here.

And we've talked a lot about David Miscavige, the leader of Scientology.

And today I am actually going to be joined by Jenna Miscavige here in studio, David's niece.

Now she was in Scientology since she was a very young age, and she is going to be sharing with me all about her experience in Scientology, how she escaped Scientology, David and his secrets and what he does behind closed doors.

Also, if David truly believes that Scientology is powerful and he's aligned with its belief system, or if he, in fact, knows it's a cult.

We also, of course, are going to touch on Shelly Miscavige, where Shelly, nobody has seen or heard from her in years.

Is that true or not?

Was she complicit?

What does she know?

What was her involvement?

Jenna's going to tell us everything.

And she's also going to talk to us about the darkness behind Scientology.

And I think we're all aware of the darkness and how they prey on people and exploit them and use them.

But it goes even darker and deeper, more than I ever knew, to be quite honest.

And so she's here in the studio.

She is going to break it all down for you.

We're going to talk through it all.

And I'm just really excited to have her here because I think it is such an important topic and something that needs to have a light on it as much as possible.

Hi Jenna, thank you so much for joining me today.

I'm really excited to have you here because as I mentioned already in the intro, I've been fascinated with Scientology for years and it's something that I personally have been investigating, researching.

I try to be very careful when I am, but when I came across your TikToks and how outspoken and brave you are and just the powerful statements that you were making, I just wanted to hear more and learn more from you and just have your personal experience.

So thank you so much for joining today, truly.

Of course.

Thank you for having me.

Of course.

It's my pleasure.

So what I would love to start with is just a little bit, I guess, about your background.

At what age were you introduced to Scientology?

How did it all come about within your family?

Yeah, so my, I was born and raised in Scientology.

So my parents were already Scientologists by the time I was born.

And when, just before I was two years old, they joined Scientology's most dedicated organization or most dedicated like group inside of it.

It's called the Sea Org.

And basically

you sign one billion year contracts promising your soul lifetime after lifetime of servitude to Scientology.

You are not allowed to have kids, although they had already like that rule came shortly after they joined.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

So from that time forward, no Sea Org members were allowed to have kids.

Did they ever have any more kids or no?

No.

Okay.

Yeah.

And basically you work like 15 hour days, seven days a week for Scientology.

You have little or no time off.

You live communally.

Everyone eats together.

And you basically get paid $50 a week.

And $50 a week at 15 hours a day.

Yes.

What I need to like figure out what that math even computes to.

Have you done the breakdown of that?

I mean, pennies, but.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, in the end, like like Scientology is paying for where you live and where you eat, but usually it's like stacked up, like in dorm rooms stacked with bunk beds this high.

Although, when you're married, you get like you share an apartment with another couple, but and they're paying for your food, but also you're paying for all of your laundry, all of your toiletries, all of your feminine hygiene products.

You're paying for

everything else.

So, it even so, room and board, I mean, that doesn't equate to 15 hour days full time and then getting the extra $50 a week.

So you've mentioned Brit really quickly, I want to talk back about the dorms and how it's stacked with bunk beds even before marriage.

So

what is that like?

How many people to a room could there be?

So for instance, like when I went to a Scientology boarding school, and boarding school is like a very loose term here, but I was in a dorm with seven other girls.

And then we had one bathroom, which was connected to another dorm with seven other girls.

Wow.

So like we were all using the same bathroom.

We all had to shower every day.

And it was like a scramble, if not impossible, to be hygienic as kids and get everything done you were supposed to get done.

What age did you start boarding school?

So that started when I was six years old.

And so you were pulled, were you pulled away from your parents and put into this boarding school with just peers?

Or how did that work?

Well, the truth is that when my parents joined this, this C organization, it was in Los Angeles.

And

for like a year or so, like they were there with me.

And I like, we like me and my brothers lived in the living room on bunk beds.

But then they went.

My dad went to the secretive international management base for Scientology and my mom was doing other projects for Scientology.

So I only saw them for a few hours once a week.

Wow.

That's so tough as such a young girl.

Yeah.

So I would be in like Scientology nurseries during the day with a bunch of other Scientology kids.

And then when I was six, there was basically a boarding school that was at Scientology's International Management Base.

And where is that located?

It's in Hemet.

Okay.

Yeah.

And so the boarding school was about 20 minutes away.

It was at the back of an Indian reservation.

And it was a couple of acres.

And there wound up being like 80 to 100 kids there.

And we would be there all week.

And then we would see our parents for like a couple hours on Saturday evening and Sunday morning.

And then we would go back.

And so, I mean, I'm just, my mind is kind of blown right now as you're saying that because I've, I've, of course, I'm familiar with the Sea Org.

I have heard about the boarding schools, but now just thinking through that.

At such a young age, six, seven years old, which is incredibly young, going to sleep without your parents and waking up without them, that has to be incredibly difficult and challenging.

But I also suppose the argument could be you didn't know any different at that point.

Is that fair to say?

That's very fair to say.

Yeah.

The truth is that I never lived in a home with my parents.

And even though you're right, like I didn't know what I was missing and also that was happening to all the other kids around me.

So it wasn't like, oh, this is odd.

What's happening to me?

At the same time, there's still that.

you know, basic biological drive where I always wanted to be with my parents.

Of course.

And I always like everything I was doing, even trying to be good in school was so that I could somehow work at this base with them so that I could see them every day.

That was my personal goal.

And then now as a mom myself, you know, obviously it's very different with my own kids.

Now it puts it in a more stark perspective.

Absolutely.

I would imagine it's almost kind of reliving your childhood, giving them the childhood you wish that you had in a sense.

Right.

Yeah.

And actually really understanding what I missed.

Yeah, absolutely.

Now, going back to what you had just, you made a comment saying that you wanted to do really well in school and you wanted to make people happy so that you could then one day work at the same organization with your family.

Was there a certain requirement where you had to hit certain milestones or have a certain performance at these boarding schools in order to then be either accepted or invited to the Sea Org?

Yes.

So how the boarding school was looked at is that we were called cadets, where we were considered Sea Org members in training.

Okay.

And so we had certain, a certain curriculum that we had to complete.

A little bit of it was schooling and a little bit of it was Scientology studies.

And so if you finished this early, then earlier, then you could go work at the base earlier.

I remember my Aunt Shelly would always tell me how she worked in the Sea Org as a nine-year-old and how I was sort of like lagging behind because I wasn't already there.

And that's, but correct me if I'm wrong, when you get to the Sea Org, that's hard labor that you're then required to do.

Super ironically, what we were required to do at the boarding school was legitimately hard labor.

What kind of things?

Like digging trenches, hauling rocks.

I mean, we woke up at 6.30 in the morning and immediately we were put to work.

Our jobs were to maintain the grounds.

They would have to get inspected after like we planted a bunch of trees, after we...

filled planters with gravel, we planted cactus, we mowed the huge sports field, and we like shoveled horse poop and that sort of thing.

Like we just had all sorts of landscaping type duties around the ranch that we would pretty much do right after we woke up until school time, which wasn't until the afternoon.

And then, you know, once a week on Saturday, we would be required to basically.

white glove clean the entire ranch, which just meant cleaning so well that it had to pass inspection with somebody with a white glove.

And who was usually doing that inspection?

There was a couple couple of adults at the ranch.

Okay.

But bizarrely enough, like the kids were, we had our own organizational structure where we had seven divisions.

Each division had three departments.

Each division had a head.

We would have these like gatherings called muster.

I guess that's a military word, but for me, it's a psychology word.

And they would be like, unit one, report, and be like, all president accounted for, sir.

And then we would do like close order military drilling, like left face, right face.

And we would get our uniforms inspected every day.

We wore uniforms.

And we would get our dorms inspected every day for cleanliness.

So it was like even though we were kids there and there were adults there overseeing us, it was like we were running ourselves.

Wow.

That must have forced you to mature at a very young age and just become an adult.

And like we just said, not even have a childhood.

I'm curious, what was the ratio like, if you can remember, of hard labor in the mornings and school time?

Like what was that split like?

Were you doing more hard labor than actually getting education, even though the education was, of course, Scientology-based?

That's a great question.

So basically, all morning until about like two in the afternoon, we did like the hard labor.

I mean, we also had breakfast and lunch, but even like after breakfast and lunch, like we would be mopping and cleaning the floors, doing the dishes, all of that stuff, like some doing laundry.

And so then after lunch is when we would start our schooling until dinner time.

But after dinner, we would be doing Scientology studies.

So the schooling was really after lunch until dinner time.

So a few hours of like traditional education, call it maybe two to five or two to six p.m.

Yes, except it wasn't traditional education.

It was kids from like six years old to 16 years old all in the same classroom.

And there wasn't, there was no grades.

And basically there wasn't a teacher who would teach us things.

They weren't allowed to explain anything.

We all had these little checklists, which were basically like, read this,

demonstrate this.

Like we would write an essay.

Curriculum.

Well, it was like step by step what we had to do, but it was never a teacher teaching us.

And so it was run like a Scientology course room where they would like, they had an E-meter there.

We would have to be attached to the E-meter.

Can you explain to everybody listening what the E-meter is?

Sorry.

No, no, no.

That's fine.

I mean, I feel like I know a lot of these terms

for those who are a little bit unfamiliar.

Yeah, yeah, please.

I have one actually at home.

I went on my way up.

I was like, dang, I should have brought that.

Please text me a photo.

Okay, okay.

I will for sure.

So an e-meter is basically like kind of Scientology's version of a lie detector.

It's this device.

It has a dial on it.

You hold two like metal cans that are attached to the e-meter.

It puts like a small electrical current through your body.

And in Scientology, Scientology, they believe that your mind influences this current and that influence shows up on the dial of the e-meter.

So they basically ask you questions.

And depending on how the needle reacts, Scientology interprets it to mean yes or no, you're lying or you're not.

And am I correct when I say those are those sessions are called auditing sessions?

Is that right?

That's correct.

Those sessions are called auditing sessions, but they also use the e-meter outside of auditing sessions, like in a normal like school classroom, like Scientology has this obsession with making sure you don't go past any words you don't understand.

They kind of believe that it's like the root of all evil.

And so in the schooling scenario, they ask us if we have gone by any words we don't understand the meaning of.

And they ask it on the e-meter.

Yeah.

So can you give me an example of that?

Like what they may ask, like or a word?

Yeah, yeah.

So they basically say, in your recent studies, have you encountered any word or symbol you didn't fully understand?

And then they look at the e-meter and depending on how it reacts, they say, great, go back to your studies.

And if it has like a read on the e-meter, they say, go back to your first course, the beginning of your course, and find a word, make a list of all the words you don't understand, look them up in a dictionary.

And like try again.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But you kind of have to go back to the beginning of your course, which so it sucks if you fail.

Yeah.

And also, it's in front of the whole classroom.

Oh, my gosh.

And so it's embarrassing.

Like that was my terror when I was

so embarrassing.

Yeah, it's humiliating.

Yeah.

And so you would, I would have these like little strategies, which basically occupied all of my schooling time.

I would like, I would have a dictionary open and like pretending like I was looking up a word because if you're looking up a word, then they can't do a meter check on you.

But in reality, the meter check isn't even accurate because it's just a current going through your body.

So it's like whether you know the word or not, it's kind of a 50-50 chance of what's going to show up on the system, right?

Right.

Yes, totally.

But it was more like I could avoid even being brought to the station if they knew I was already looking up words.

And like they would have things.

I feel like I'm getting into the weeds.

You can tell me.

No, no, no.

This is great.

But we would have like word chains.

Like if you look up a word and then there's a word in the word you don't understand, you have to open another dictionary and look up that word.

So I was basically always putting on a show of being in a word chain.

Wow.

So that I could

avoid embarrassment.

Of course.

And so it

wasn't a very productive way of going about my schooling.

It's interesting because you say how you did that to avoid the embarrassment.

And when you are tested and it's in front of the class, and you also, a few minutes ago, had mentioned that your Aunt Shelly used to give you a hard time saying that she was in the Sea Org at nine years old.

You're not trying hard enough.

And so I want to just pivot for a moment and ask you, how involved while you were in this boarding school and a cadet and doing the training was your Aunt Shelly and your Uncle David in your life?

So my Aunt Shelly would write me regularly.

Like she sent me a bunch of letters or a bunch of stationery so that I could write her because I think that she was saying she wanted me to write her and then I wasn't.

I used the excuse that I didn't have stationery.

So she sent me a bunch.

So I would write her regularly.

They would send me birthday presents and Christmas presents and all of that.

And occasionally us kids were brought into the where the base where our parents worked where we would work in like the galley where they made all the food or occasionally we would do a Scientology course there and so when I was there like sometimes my uncle would come get me on his motorcycle and bring me to his office and usually I would wind up talking to Shelly like he was around but she was like a woman and I

My opinion is that she didn't have any kids of her own.

And so she sort of like,

i was sort of her outlet for that yeah i think that makes sense at the time so they weren't part of my daily life because i was at the ranch the entire time but you know at christmas time um you know when we had a day off it was spent you only had one day off yeah christmas day yeah or there would be like a big celebration the night before but then we would have christmas day off and so I would spend it with them with my parents.

Well, that was actually going to be one of my questions.

And please excuse me if this is so naive and ignorant of me, but

do you celebrate traditional holidays?

Like, would your whole family get together for Thanksgiving?

I know you just mentioned Christmas for anything like that, or does that go against Scientology beliefs?

It doesn't go against Scientology beliefs.

I feel like it's like I'm not religious right now, but I still celebrate Christmas.

But things weren't really family affairs.

Like at...

Thanksgiving at the Sea York base, they would have a Thanksgiving meal.

And so we would all celebrate it together.

Or like at Christmas time,

the night before Christmas, there would be like a base-wide celebration all together.

And then on Christmas day,

there would be like, I guess, different groups from different, because there was always different factions of who was in what group.

would hang out together.

I, just by default, my parents were executives and they would hang out with my aunt and uncle.

And so I was part of that, but it was still considered like a Scientology activity more than it was considered a family activity.

Were Christmas gifts a thing?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Christmas tree

things.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

But like I didn't have a home when it was a Christmas tree.

It wasn't like nesting with the stockings in the home.

It was more of like you go to a place, you have the meal, you celebrate together, and then that's, and then it ends.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or we would like have the Chris Kringle Secret Santa thing, but we all like, well, as a kid, I only made $5 a week, but like they only made $50 a week.

So you'd have to like buy gum from the canteen or something.

And that would be like the daily gifts.

Now, speaking of that, I want, I want to move into how you progressed out of the boarding school and what was next.

But really quick, just going back to the pay thing really quick.

Is it your opinion that the pay was structured that way to keep people in debt and keep them stuck there?

Or why do you think the pay was so little?

And is it still that amount to this day?

Everything I know of from people who have left more recently, it is still that amount to this day.

Wow.

And the truth is that I think about different aspects of Scientology so many years later that I feel like I actually haven't even gotten around to thinking is this, is that why this pay is structured in this way?

But I was actually doing a new TikTok for today, and I talked briefly about elderly people who work their entire life in the Sea Org and they don't have any savings.

They don't have a pension.

They have no retirement.

So they're basically just screwed.

And you can't have those things if you're living on $50 a week.

And so even just today, like it's even though I've been gone for quite a while, it's still like

the more I progress through my life, the more I see how things were when I was there.

The more like the more I am a mom, the longer I'm a mom to my kids of different ages, I realize how messed up it was for me.

Yeah.

So

I actually think that that is a very good point.

Like, of course, that's how you keep people there.

Well, that's interesting that you just mentioned the point about pension and elderly people, because I would, I'm curious too, what would happen if a Sea Org member or any member was injured?

Or did you ever go to the dentist growing up?

How did was health care covered?

What did that look like?

So as far as a dentist, they did have an in-house dentist, but it was like one person for thousands of people.

And you would have to get like the money approved in order to get the procedure.

So there was a dentist, but it wasn't like everyone was in good health.

There was only so much this one person could do.

And as far as medical care.

Scientology believes that Scientology can cure everything.

They even believe that what's happening to you medically is because of a mental thing.

But if something is an emergency, they will take you to the hospital where I guess it's like if you don't have insurance and if you make zero money, it's just free.

Yeah, they just they're forced to treat you up to an extent, I think.

But exactly, yeah.

So there was like one or two times where I went there and was like just waiting for hours and was like passing out in the hospital.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

So it's not like there's regular medical treatment.

There is a medical liaison office, but what basically we mostly did there was if you weren't feeling well, we would do Scientology assists

basically that are supposed to help you with your body.

And that's how we thought that they would give you some vitamins and then we would do those assists.

And that's how we thought we were healing each other.

Oh my gosh.

So walk me through then how, if there was anything else like that you want to mention about boarding school and then what the next step in your journey was.

Sure.

I just want to ask you something though.

I just had a realization that, okay, so we would do this thing called a touch assist, which was supposed to like help you heal to help you be more in communication with your body.

And I just realized that this is kind of a great place to demonstrate it, but also it would involve me touching you.

Let's do it.

Okay.

Let's do it.

A touch assist.

Okay.

Okay.

See how close do I need to be to you?

Well,

sorry for anybody who's not watching the video version of it.

Can I stand up?

Yeah.

And you can hear me through there.

Yeah.

Do you want me to stand?

No, no.

Here, I'm going to move the mic so that it can pick up both voices.

Sure.

Okay.

so close your eyes.

Okay.

And basically, we go, feel my finger.

Oh, no, just you feel it with like.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Okay.

I'm already failing.

Okay.

And you just say, like, yes, or no.

Yes.

Okay, good.

Feel my finger.

Yes.

Thank you.

Feel my finger.

Yes.

Thank you.

Feel my finger.

Yes.

Thank you.

Feel my finger.

Yes.

Thank you.

Feel my finger.

Yes.

And basically like we just keep going all the way down to like each of your fingers and each of your toes.

And that's what we would.

And what's the purpose of that?

It's basically like we like we believe that that would make your spirit be in better communication with your body.

Oh, and I would heal myself.

Yeah, basically.

So am I healed right now, Jenna?

Well, I would have to keep going like sometimes for like a half an hour until you're supposed to have some like realization like, wow.

My headache's gone.

Exactly.

And at some point, you're just like, my headache's gone because i can't be doing this all day you know

well thank you for demonstrating that that's really interesting i'm gonna start doing that on my kids anytime they're like i have a boo-boo i'm like touch assist time

you like wear them down so they're like okay i feel like i just want to watch spidey and friends leave me the hell alone that's pretty much how it was oh my gosh um okay so yeah walk me through how that transition happened and kind of where things were at and what your day-to-day looked like through boarding school into the next phase.

Okay.

Yeah.

So the majority of the time I was at this boarding school at the ranch, my mom was positioned in Clearwater, Florida, where she basically was in charge of that, that whole base, which is Scientology's biggest like money-making base.

People come, Scientologists come from all around the world to get highly trained there and then they go back to their own churches.

And it delivers some of the highest levels in Scientology.

So she was responsible for like renovating church buildings and getting that sort of thing in place.

And so there was a time or two that I went to visit her.

And

basically I was going from digging trenches, hauling rocks, and like being in this military-esque organization to where I lived with my mom in an apartment, but it like had a jacuzzi.

Like, uh, like there was a teenage girl who was supposed to look after me, who worked for my mom, who would make her breakfast every morning she would wake her up and she would do her laundry and you know my mom would get like manicures and she like there was a special executive chef she would get this delicious food and all I had to do was do a Scientology course all day

and I would basically get all of this these amazing perks And it was like the greatest time of my life.

Of course.

I mean, of course, compared to what you were doing in the hard labor, it's like, this is amazing.

Exactly right.

Yes, exactly.

That's exactly how it was.

And so then when I went back to the ranch, I was like, it sucks here.

Yeah, I don't want to be here.

Get me out.

Yes.

Yeah.

And then they had made it so our training program was going to be longer to be at the ranch.

And basically I was like, I want to go back to Clearwater.

And so they sent me there, but my mom wasn't there.

And then they basically like just put me in the Sea Org instead of getting this great treatment.

And they were like, surprise, you're here now.

And they basically just threw me in a dorm with like, at this point, it was like 10 other women.

And how old were you at this point?

I was 12.

Wow.

Yeah.

So it was like a few months after I turned 12.

And

like, I remember getting there and my bed didn't even have sheets on it.

Like, I didn't know where to go.

I was just told, okay, now you're in the Sea Org.

Here's your uniform.

Now, I always knew I was going to be joining the Sea Org, but I didn't expect it to be that sudden.

Like, I actually signed my billionaire contract when I was seven years old.

Oh my God.

Like, they, like, recruiters came to the ranch and they had us all sign it.

And it was like, of course, I'm going to sign it.

My parents are part of this.

I'm not going anywhere else.

Yeah.

You're not even questioning it.

Yeah.

And I didn't play video games.

I didn't have toys.

I didn't watch TV.

Like, I had, I knew zero people who weren't Scientologists.

Zero.

I never saw them.

That was your world.

Exactly.

Yes.

Yeah.

And so I just didn't expect to be like thrust into this.

And actually, I realize I'm finally answering your other question, which is

while the Sea Org is very

like regimented and hard, it's not the same level of manual labor that we did as kids.

That's interesting.

So it's actually a little bit easier.

As you get older, which is so disgusting to think about.

Right.

For me, yeah.

Some people just join the Sea Org not having grown up in the cadet org or in the boarding school.

So some people just go right into that and that's really hard for them.

For me, it was like,

it was a little bit easier, but still, yeah, there was more like, I don't know, like politics and dynamics and that sort of thing.

Now, for someone who is, say, making a column 20 years old and they're just saying today, like, I want to become a Scientologist.

I truly believe in it.

I believe in everything they stand for.

What would make someone decide or be told either, okay, I'm a Scientologist.

I'll go to, I'll go through Dianetics or all the programs and do all this, or I'm going to go in the Sea Org.

Is it a requirement?

Is it a certain level of dedication?

How does that split happen?

It's not a requirement, but it is considered like the highest level of dedication.

And obviously the more dedicated you are, the more appraised you get.

And also, as a Sea Org member, you get Scientology for free, although they don't give you much of it because you're not paying for it, but you are actually able to get Scientology for free.

So maybe some people who can't fully afford paying for Scientology outside of working there, they might join staff or join the Sea Org.

So something like that.

I think that's an interesting take joining from like a financial perspective and benefit.

But you also had said that it's the highest level of dedication.

So I have to ask, why has Tom Cruise never been in the Sea Org?

Right, exactly.

Isn't he like the, you know, picture-perfect Scientologist, so dedicated, like the poster boy?

He is, yeah.

But I think that Scientology and he probably agrees that he's more valuable to Scientology as being Tom Cruise.

As being like the mission impossible guy who never ages and does his own stunts.

Have, did you ever meet Tom Cruise?

No, I never met him.

No.

Yeah.

I want to talk all about the celebrity of it all here soon, but let's see.

Okay.

No worries.

Sorry, I'm going off the rails a little.

No, no, that's okay.

But in Scientology, like even when Tom Cruise was like going crazy, like jumping on couches and stuff, we just saw it as like, oh my God, he's spreading the word about Scientology.

He's doing so great.

What a great, dedicated Scientologist he is.

So I feel like Scientology thinks he's more valuable in that way.

Cause how many people have gotten into Scientology?

Because they're like, well, Tom Cruise does it.

It must be great.

Yeah.

All the different celebrity endorsements throughout it.

Yeah, exactly.

So then once you were at the Sea Org, aside from just like the less labor that or the reduction in labor, I should say, from when you were at the camp or the boarding school.

Right.

What did that look like?

Did you have to go through?

I know you said Scientology education was free or it was made available at that point.

So like, did you go through all the Dianetics?

How much do all of those cost?

The books?

I know that that is like this whole financial animal in and of itself, too.

And you never really reach the top.

You always get hit down different tiers.

So what happened?

Right.

Yeah.

So.

First of all, I was no longer doing schooling daily.

We only did school like a couple hours, hours one day a week.

Starting at 12 years old.

Yes, starting at 12 years old until I was 16 years old.

After I was 16, no more schooling at all.

And again, it wasn't grade levels.

Nothing was like no diploma for all of the kids who were there working in the Sea Org.

It's not just me.

And then my schedule sort of became like, at least at the boarding school, you know, our.

our studies would end at nine o'clock.

We would go to bed at 9.30.

Well, instead here, it was more like closer to midnight, 11.30 midnight when we would go home.

And

I was required to do a lot of Scientology training throughout the day.

There was also a few programs I went through where like I was in a part of

a higher level part of the Sea Org.

There's so much red tape.

There's so many hierarchies.

It's so

by design.

Yes, exactly.

It's like, what are these people even doing?

But

basically,

there was an initiation program to get into this higher level organization where we were required to do all the laundries of the senior executive on the base.

We would do all of their laundry and we would clean their rooms for them.

We would clean their offices for them and we would bring them food.

And we had to complete a certain series of courses in order to get through that.

So I did that program.

And

sorry, I'm just trying to explain.

No, no, no, you're fine.

In a way, I'm sorry.

I even forget your question.

Oh, what did it?

I was just talking about what it was like in the Sea Org and like what the landscape of like what you had to do and the requirements and Dianetics and all of that.

And if that was a part of it and just kind of like, as you, I guess, because in my mind, I'm thinking you're essentially climbing the Scientology ladder.

so to speak.

So like as you continue to climb higher and higher, I would imagine the pressures increase, the requirements increase, maybe the skepticism starts to trickle in.

So just

wanting to understand a little bit about just that period in your life.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay.

So as far as Scientology, if you're a paying person who comes and pays for Scientology,

they have what's called a gradation chart.

And basically you start at the bottom.

And step by step, you move up.

And each thing is a course or a level of counseling that you have to do.

And you have to do them in order.

Now, there's some side things like if you do this level right here and you're not and you're not doing well in life, they might have a side action they have you do in order to get you back on that level.

What classifies not doing well?

You said doing well in life.

Yes.

Like sometimes like just say you're at level two and your life is in array.

You are like, they had to have things called like life repair.

Or maybe if you get into, if you go to jail, like they can do like, I don't know, like an interrogation on you and find out what's going on.

Okay.

Like just a life event.

Yes.

Is it, would it be, I'm just trying to get a scale for it.

Like, would they consider your life in disarray if you were going through a breakup?

Or is it something more severe?

Like you're drinking, you're doing drugs, you've gone to jail, like something that is more severe?

No, something like that.

As long as your attention is fixated on it and you're unable to fixate on your Scientology counseling, then they will do something to address it separately.

At the beginning of every Scientology counseling session, they ask you, are you upset?

Do you have a present time problem?

And have you done something bad that you're hiding?

And they try to get life things out of the way so they can do the Scientology counseling.

But if it keeps coming up, then you'll probably have to do another service.

Oh, my God.

Sorry.

Another

service or another program in order to get like deal with that and then get back on course how long is a counseling session

so it's usually a couple of hours like two or more but like so there's also different types of counseling sessions like and it is called auditing i say counseling because i scientology has such a specific language oh i'm sure and it's I feel like it's so, it's hard to impart what I'm trying to say when I'm like trying to explain using their language.

So I try not to use it, but it's like translating in my head every second.

So there's different types of auditing sessions.

Like if you are in trouble,

me as a staff member, I would get an interrogation.

And that's basically when they ask you, have you done this bad thing?

Have you done this bad thing?

And they interpret it on the e-meter.

And so sometimes those sessions last longer.

Like I've been in one of those sessions for nine hours straight.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, where they're recording it.

It's like an adult asking you a bunch of questions.

They don't accept no for an answer.

They only accept the emeter's answer.

Are you comfortable sharing why that session was so long or what the primary root of that was?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Okay, well, first of all, it happened like 20 times.

It was a common thing.

Yeah.

It was like a standard practice of theirs.

Right.

But for me specifically, because I was the niece of the leader and because they felt like how I acted represented how they looked to people.

And I don't know if it's like they saw me as a potential threat.

So one of the times when I started getting an interrogation was when my parents had actually left Scientology and I didn't know.

I just got pulled out of my duties.

How old were you at this time?

At this point, I was 16.

Okay.

Yeah.

So.

And they left and they didn't notify you.

No, I didn't even know that my parents were leaving.

I had been forbidden to speak, to call my parents by my Aunt Shelly.

And so basically they had taken me out of my everyday duties.

and I started getting interrogated by this woman who was the highest level important person on the base.

And this would go on for hours a day with a video camera.

And

then basically I was made, I was taken out of my duties.

I was made to clean bathrooms anytime that I wasn't getting an interrogation from her.

I was made to scrub the bathroom with a toothbrush with somebody standing there watching me to make sure I didn't try to escape at any time.

Someone else also stood outside my dorm at night while I was sleeping.

What would happen if once you're notified that your parents left, which I want to ask why they left, but what would happen if you were to say, you know what?

Screw this.

Throw the toothbrush down.

I'm out of here.

You can't hold me.

I have free will.

I'm not doing this anymore.

I don't want to be a part of this.

What would they do?

Well, this is what's hard.

That is what I eventually did when I left Scientology.

But

if I decided to do that, who would I go to?

I knew zero people who weren't Scientologists.

Oh, you mean in terms of life outside of Scientology?

So it's almost as though kind of like not only, and I hope this word doesn't offend you because it's not at all what I mean, but it's almost as though they brainwash people inside there a little bit to be just so dependent on other Scientologists.

And yeah.

remove your ability to lean on anybody outside of the organization.

So you feel trapped.

Right.

And I didn't know anybody outside of the organization.

I didn't have a, I didn't have a dollar to my name.

I didn't know how to cook.

I didn't have a car.

I didn't have a license.

I didn't have a diploma.

Like I was raised to be afraid of people who weren't Scientologists.

Like not like they would hurt me or kill me or something like that, but I was afraid of how I should speak to them if they were to ask questions.

Cause we were, we were told how to answer questions.

Like

Like I was supposed to say I was a student, but I didn't really know why.

Now I know that's because as a kid, you're supposed to pretend like you're in school.

But at that time, I didn't know what, like, I believe in Scientology.

I thought it was great that I was working there.

Yeah, why do I have to lie?

Exactly.

Yeah.

So I was just like afraid of people who weren't Scientologists.

And so I wouldn't have anyone to call or anyone to go if at that time I wanted to leave.

I didn't even know my parents were gone.

And I didn't even have a phone number for them.

So there was no options.

Like

me staying there.

Like I just had nowhere to go.

How did they explain to you that your parents left?

Did they try to position in a way to suggest that they abandoned you, that they left, that they were the evil people in all of this?

Well, so this bathroom cleaning and interrogations went on for months.

And then one day they said, you're going home, which I guess meant, I thought meant back to the international management base where my parents were.

Turned out it was in LA.

I was brought to like the 10th floor of this building.

It's the Hollywood Guarantee Building.

And

basically two senior most officials in Scientology, they basically, like I was basically waiting in this room for like two hours before they even came in.

And they were like,

so Ronnie and Biddy, that's my parents, have left.

They are living in Mexico.

Like they basically sent them to Mexico so that no journalists could be in touch with them.

And they're living in Mexico and we want you to go with them.

And I was like, so are they basically, I asked if they were declared SPs, which is a suppressive person, which is somebody who has left Scientology, is a critic of Scientology and people who Scientology thinks are evil.

And they were kind of like, well, yeah, but they didn't want to lead with that.

And they're like, and you're going with them.

And I was like, oh, well, I haven't seen my parents since I was 12.

I've never lived in a home with them.

I've basically structured my whole life around,

like, you know, when I started my period, like, I got pads from my friend, you know, when like that, that's who my family was.

And so at this point, when my parents have left, I've been forbidden to talk to them for years.

I was afraid of the outside world.

Of course.

We were taught that in regular schools, like in Scientology, they believe psychiatrists and psychologists are like evil.

And they like try to like lobotomize you and all this and drug you.

And I was like, I'm going to go to a, a regular school in Mexico.

I don't even speak Spanish.

And so I was like, no, I want to stay.

And so basically I wound up staying.

And at the time, they were like, wow, you are such a dedicated, wonderful Sea Org member.

Do you think that they did that at all as some sort of reverse psychology to be like, we want you to go to like test your dedication and see if you want to stay?

Or do you think they truly did want you to go?

I think they wanted me to go to avoid a legal issue and drama with my parents.

But I think that when I said I wanted to stay, they recognized that it was an opportunity for them to basically keep my parents in check.

And we have your daughter here.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And if you speak out, if you say bad things, then you're not going to see her.

Do you have any siblings?

I have two half-brothers.

Yeah.

Were they in Scientology as well?

They were in Scientology as well.

They grew up there, but.

It's kind of a weird long story.

Like I have twin brothers, but they're my mom's kids and not my dad's kids.

And they're eight years older than me.

And so they were at a different base than me.

And so it's just like

relation, but not the closeness.

Right.

Yeah.

And also, I'm just trying to think, like one of my brothers was already gone by then.

And then one of my brothers left later.

Okay.

So you don't have it currently in your immediate family, there are no more family members in Scientology.

Not in my immediate family.

Just your extended.

Yes, right.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, of course, one of them is running Scientology.

Right.

yeah.

Okay, so then I'm curious too,

just as people have spoken out over the years about Scientology, and Leah Remini had her famous docuseries where she was exposing, she spoke with a lot of people who had left, some who were still involved and who wanted to be anonymous.

Have you watched any of that?

I've watched some of it, yeah.

What you've seen is that an accurate portrayal of what it was like and truthful.

Absolutely.

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Okay, so the portrayal you're saying was accurate.

I do have a quick question then.

With all of that, just like with the celebrity of it all, I know you didn't have, you said you'd never met Tom Cruise or anything like that.

Did you ever hear about special treatment that the celebrities were getting or like certain perks that they would receive just because of their participation?

How did that look?

So in Scientology Celebrity Center International, which is where the big celebrities are handled, there's like a whole office called the president's office.

They just help them in their day-to-day life.

They help get them on Scientology services.

They make sure they're entering through the right door so that their privacy is protected.

They handle their interpersonal relationships.

They get them a good spot in the Scientology restaurants.

All of that, they basically cater directly to them to make sure they're getting the best possible treatment.

A lot of times when Scientology celebrities are on courses, they have their own private classrooms.

If they're doing the purification rundown, they have their own private sauna.

And even sometimes they're being counseled, audited by very senior level people, senior executives.

Yeah.

So I remember there was one period of time where I did not want to be in Scientology.

I had like.

tried to like escape and this man his name was Marty Rathbin He was like second in command of Scientology and he literally was like chasing me on the street with his car.

I finally got in the car.

He took me to the top of Mulholland Drive.

We got into an argument.

He left me there.

And then he finally, I didn't have a phone.

I didn't have anything.

I was just a brainwashed Sea Reg member.

And he finally came back and got me, but he was like, look, I have been auditing Tom Cruise.

His auditing file is right here in the car.

I'm going to go bring it into the celebrity center.

Can you please just promise me you won't run out of this car?

You won't run away when I take five minutes to go drop it off.

Wow.

So that person was the second in command of all of Scientology, and that's who was auditing Tom Cruise.

And that's also who was dealing with me.

That's interesting because I guess, like, obviously celebrities who are going through it, they're going through the same criteria that other people are.

But like the fact that Tom Cruise still gets audited and things like that happen, that's...

Wild to me.

So going back, because I know we skipped ahead a little bit, at what point and at what age did you first start to question things or feel like I'm not on board with this?

Something about this doesn't feel right.

And what were the events after that following?

Sure.

Yeah.

Sorry.

I just want to go back to the celebrity thing just

the thing is that the celebrities, as far as special treatment, I would say the biggest thing that I take issue with is that they are not Sea Org members.

So there is a whole crew of people who are basically being paid pennies, who are forfeiting their ability to have children.

And yes, some of those people signed on as adults, but some of them were forced into it as children.

They're being deprived of an education.

And every time Tom Cruise or another celebrity pays millions to this organization to support it, they're actually supporting what is essentially a human trafficking organization and terrible treatment and abuse of children without they themselves having to do any of that labor or live in that difficult way.

Or live by those guidelines.

Tom Cruise has children.

Exactly.

So why doesn't he have to follow the same rules that everybody else does?

Exactly.

But I think that you just, that was very well spoken, what you just said.

And I think that that is incredibly important in all this because you're right.

Their celebrity, their funding, all of it is enabling this organization to.

continue to just prey on people and suppress people and exploit children.

It's sick.

It's so sick.

So yeah, tell me a little bit about when you started to have a little bit of a realization.

So the first time that I started to doubt anything about Scientology, I was probably about 14, 15.

And I was on a Scientology course.

And there was another

cadet org type boarding school there in Florida.

And one of the kids who was there, I was working with him on course.

And for some reason at that school, like he didn't have the idea that he had to automatically be a Sea York member.

Like they gave them a little bit more choice, I guess.

And so he would say things like, do you really believe that you're a spirit?

Like, do you really want to be here?

Like, you don't really seem happy in this job that you're doing.

And it was the first time that I was like, I never really questioned it before.

Like, I was always like, just took.

my parents' word for it.

I took everyone's word for it.

And I was like, do I really believe that I'm a spirit?

And I was like, do I really like doing this?

Do I really like being held to this standard?

And at that time, a lot was going on because I was forbidden to call my parents.

My mom had gotten in trouble for something, and I was just really worried about her.

And I wasn't allowed to tell anybody that she was in trouble because she was a very senior executive in the Miscavige family, and it would look bad.

So I was also just like keeping this secret, not allowed to talk about it.

And I wound up telling him, and it was the first person who was like,

wow, so you never see your parents?

He was like, you've been away from this, all, away from them all this time and you're not even allowed to talk to them.

And he said, that must be really hard.

That's not how Scientologists talk to each other.

Like, they're not like, oh, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

They're like, yeah, this is Scientology.

Suck it up.

And by the way, if you speak badly about Scientology, it's only because you've done something bad.

And so it was the first time that somebody spoke to me like that and it was the first time I was like

yeah maybe I don't like doing this I've just assumed that I always did and and I think at that age I was

getting less attached to the idea of wanting to work there because my parents were there because I was 15 16 that's how that's how it is developmentally yeah and so Yeah, that was that was the first time that I ever questioned it.

And then when did things come to a major crossroads to where you knew it's time to get out?

that wound up happening when i was 21.

so many things had happened from that time i mean i had had so many interrogations i got so after my parents left i was basically taken out of clearwater florida brought to los angeles i had to go through this whole program where i was like had to sit in an office with a video camera all day where i would study all of the policies about SPs, basically saying that my parents were SPs.

I lived in a room by myself.

I was completely isolated.

And then finally, when I got more, like after a few months, when I got more integrated into the group,

I wound up meeting who's now my ex-husband and we fell in love.

And in Scientology, you're not allowed to, or in this, in the Sea Org, you're not allowed to have sex before you get married.

And so people get married at really young ages.

Like my friend Misha got married when she was 15.

It's just like certain Mormon cultures.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So it's like totally normal to get married at a young age there.

And so, but Scientology wouldn't let us get married because they were afraid that his uncle would get in touch with my parents and then they would, they're very paranoid, that they would like conspire against Scientology and it would be bad.

So we wound up having sex before we got married.

No girl, just get it.

And then that's like so forbidden.

Like, Okay, so in the Sea Org, they have this program that's called the RPF.

It's the rehabilitation project for for us, where basically like, if you mess up, you get assigned to this and it is like the ultimate doghouse, like gulag.

Basically, you have to wear all black.

You're not allowed to speak unless spoken to.

Oh my gosh.

You have to run everywhere you go and you spend five hours a day getting interrogated.

And also it's like a special kind of interrogation where you have to find your evil intentions behind the things that you did.

People are on this program for years.

And the rest of the time, they basically do heavy manual labor, like how we did at the ranch.

And you're basically like garbage, like you're like the worst of the worst.

And it lasts for years.

And so basically, normally, if you have premarital sex, but even if you just like touch someone in like inappropriate places or anything like that, you get assigned to this program.

And so that's what was at risk for me.

Now, I basically was like, you guys didn't let us get married.

So I refused to do it.

And I think that at that time they were like, well, what are we going to do?

Get rid of her?

That's a liability for us.

Yeah.

And on some level, they acknowledged they didn't want me to get married because they didn't want my parents to come to the wedding.

And so I, they had allowed me to write one letter to my parents saying that, you know, I wanted to get married.

They said, it's fine.

We don't have to come to your wedding.

So I wound up getting married when I was 18.

None of my family members were present.

I was still wearing my uniform.

And then, you know, they had previously tried to separate me and my fiancé.

They sent us on a mission to Australia.

And basically in that mission in Australia, I was actually able to be in contact with people in the regular world.

We were sent to a Scientology church there where we were supposed to find them a new building and raise money for that building.

And it was like a ridiculous, impossible job.

I think they were trying to get rid of us.

And basically, I was able to be in touch with Scientologists, but who weren't in the Sea Org.

And one of them had a little girl.

And like, I just hadn't really been around kids in that way.

Well, I had when I was a kid, but we didn't think of each other as kids.

Yeah.

And so it was like the first time that I was around this person who was like a mom.

We would go to her house.

She had a bunch of little kids.

She had another baby when we were there.

And this little girl, I remember her name was Eden.

And she was like, so cute.

And like,

like, she was kind of crazy.

But it was like the first time where I was like, oh, this is, so I'm not allowed.

It was like the first time that not having kids actually mattered to me.

I can't have this.

Yeah.

And yeah, it was the first time where I really saw what I was missing.

And then when we went back to LA when the mission was over,

basically like.

all hell had broken loose on the base like they were not letting people go to bed until midnight they were basically like uh basically we were sorry i'm just

why was that

it's basically what i believe the reason for it is that scientology is declining like there are less members they're making less money and it's really because of the age of the internet and all of these bad stories are out there and

Because of that, Scientology doesn't have the power to silence people that they used to.

And so, because of that, Scientology is declining.

But in Scientology, if statistics are going down, they basically start an internal witch hunt.

And they believe that it's because they're surrounded by SPs.

And they basically just start treating everybody horribly and punishing everybody and thinking that that's going to change it somehow.

Yeah.

Get them to do their job better.

Yeah, and make more people want to be a Scientologist.

Exactly.

But obviously, that's not the real problem.

And I also think that my uncle, you know, had gotten more paranoid with that, like

people coming out about Scientology, like the Lisa McPherson case, who's a woman who died unnecessarily in the hands of Scientology.

And, you know, I think that he just became more and more paranoid about those things.

And so just

the culture was already bad, but it was much worse.

Like we were getting screamed at every day at muster.

If people fell asleep during tape play, they're being told to

tape play.

Sorry, that's when we would listen to L.

Ron Hubbard, Scientology's founder, drone on and on endlessly.

Oh, my God.

It would be on a tape because he was dead.

And so

rest in peace.

Actually, don't.

Actually, don't.

And they would start at like 11 o'clock at night.

Oh, my God.

And it was like, and so when people would fall asleep, it was like they would get called out in front of everybody.

It's like psychological warfare.

Exactly.

All the time.

And it was almost like you were afraid to step out of line if.

otherwise you would be brought up in front of the group and humiliated.

And it was just like this terrible culture.

In Scientology, they already have a really crazy snitching culture.

They have what's called knowledge reports, where if you don't report somebody who's slacking off, somebody who did something bad, somebody who spoke badly about Scientology or complained, then you will get in trouble.

Would they ever like test you and like have people pretend like to set you up and see if you would snitch on them?

Yeah.

So I remember one time.

There was a gal who actually had been at the boarding school with me when I was young.

She was then in florida with me and then she was in la with me she had just happened to be transferred to these different bases too so i'd known her since i was a kid and i remember she was one of the people who she also hadn't seen her father who had left scientology um many years before she was my age and i remember i confided in her that my parents had left scientology and

This really senior person on the base who was reporting directly to my uncle, she basically told me that my friend Natalia had confessed that I told her everything about my parents.

Like this was like a huge no-no.

Like I was not allowed to tell anybody.

Yeah.

And she told me that Natalia had confessed that I told her this.

And then I was like, oh, okay.

And then, so, so then I was like, yeah, I did.

Yeah.

And then Natalia was like angry at me.

and even got like transferred to another base.

And one time when I started an event, she was like, yeah, I was just like kind of a little bit upset because I, I just didn't think that you would ever tell that.

And I was like, I didn't.

She told me you had.

Oh, so they were just trying to pin you against each other and see.

Yeah, where they were trying to get the truth.

And so even that little interaction with Natalia, it's very rare to have that kind of loyalty in Scientology.

Like

your friends think that they're hurting you by not reporting you.

So it's like you're living in this world where it's like, who is my friend?

Who's not?

Who's going to put the organization first?

And it winds up, everyone's going to put the organization first because if they put you first

if they get declared a sp

they lose all of their family all of their connections which sorry my stomach is no no no you're fine they lose all of their connections which basically is their livelihood like if you if you don't have an education which is how i grew up you know you only know other scientologists that are going to give you a job like you're basically screwed if you get kicked out or leave.

And so it's like, that's the choice they're making all the time when they choose whether or not to report you.

And I'm just curious, not even during this time period, but just in general, like, where is David in all of this?

Like, how involved is he?

We know he's like the face of everything.

What's his house like?

Where is he living?

What's his day-to-day?

Like, what's going on with him, with Uncle Dave?

Right.

So Dave and Shelly are supposed to be Sea Org members.

That's how they started out.

So they should be making $50 a week, living communally, all that stuff like the rest of us.

But the truth truth is that they travel on private planes.

They are driven everywhere they go.

They wear like Armani suits that are tailored by a professional tailor.

There's someone who comes in and does their nails and their hair.

They have a private chef.

And basically, they mostly at the time were at the International Scientology base.

They started spending a lot more time in Clearwater in the time when I was there.

Not because of me.

It was just because Clearwater is Scientology's big money-making base.

There was a lot of Scientology things going on there.

Also, the Lisa McPherson case was happening, and that was a big deal for Scientology.

But so between, those are the places that they are the most and sometimes LA now.

But he just lives like, you know, they have a full-time steward.

They have like just people working for them full-time waiting on them hand in foot.

So he doesn't have his own private home.

He goes in between the facilities.

Is that right?

He has like a private home on the Scientology base

at Hemet,

which is like a whole, like there's several acres.

And so he has his own private home.

Live in luxury.

Yes, like gorgeous.

And then same within Clearwater, Florida.

He has his own, like, but it's not like a house or a mansion.

It's on premises there.

And he has his own place in LA.

And how active is he?

Like, would he, if you were out digging trenches on the ranch, would you ever see him walking by?

Or does he perform any of the audits or anything?

Like, how active is he just in kind of like the day-to-day grind?

So, he is like not around every day at all.

He's like a special appearance where it's like, he's coming, clean up the whole base before he comes and make sure we make a good impression.

But I wound up being around him a lot because I was at the int base when he was there.

He would like, if I was working, he would come pick me up or, you know, on Christmas, et cetera.

But when I was at Clearwater, Florida, his offices were just down the hall from the organization that I was in.

And so, but like at the ranch, he maybe came there like once or twice.

And does he get audited?

I've heard not.

And I've never seen him.

I've never done that audit, I guess.

Right.

Yeah.

Well, so at some level in Scientology, you actually audit yourself.

I'm going like this.

I'm totally serious.

I'm going like this because normally with the e-meter, you hold two cans, but when you are auditing yourself, you have two cans in one hand and you hold them at the same time.

So like, and I don't mean to make light of this, but if you're auditing yourself and if you're holding and you're like, Annie, have you been truthful today?

And the current shows, I'm going to tell yourself, have you?

Like, couldn't you just like go round and round?

Like, it just seems wild to me.

Yeah.

I mean, some people literally have lost their mind doing this.

You're, you're supposed to be, um,

so I don't know if you know, I did not know this the entire time was in, when I was in Scientology, but when you reach a certain level, which is like called the wall of fire,

you basically learn that in Scientology, they believe that there's this like alien dude named Xenu, and he like lured our spirits in and froze us into popsicles and then put us in a volcano and shot us back to earth, but that we have these little spirits attached to us and they like whisper bad stuff to us.

And they're like, people believe this.

Yes, fully.

Yeah.

I mean, my parents did that level, but but you're not allowed to talk about it.

Like you think when you're there that if you learn about this thing, that before you've completed all the previous levels, that you're like going to die.

Like your mind is going to like, you're, there's something bad.

It's going to get scrambled and that you're going to like get sick and die.

So I was like terrified.

Yeah.

Um and then, you know, when I left, I actually watched Southbark.

But even though I was out of Scientology, I was like, I'm still kind of afraid.

Like, I asked my ex-husband to watch it.

I was like, can we test this on?

Can we test this on you?

I love that.

Girl, and that's why he's my ex-husband.

I'm actually a widow.

No, because then I would never know.

So he survived.

And then I survived.

But then.

you know, obviously, like now there's been so many more ex-Scientologists who've come forward confirming that this is the story.

I think even Leah Remini has confirmed this.

And my parents also confirmed it for me.

Sorry, I forget how we got on to that.

I was just talking about kind of like, yeah, the whole him being involved auditing yourself.

Oh, oh, right.

You lose your mind.

All these things.

So after that level, oh, oh, so after that level, you audit yourself on the cans and you basically are trying to get rid of these like.

little beings that are attached to your body.

Yeah.

So you're kind of like communicating with voices in your head.

That feels really dangerous exactly yeah yeah like some people have literally lost their mind while doing this and so but it's also like

you know for him i think it would be an easy way not to be forced to answer hard questions if somebody else is auditing you because when i was getting audited i never did the solo auditing

Basically, the person would be like, yeah, you got to answer this question.

And we're not leaving this room until you answer.

Yeah.

So it's easy for for him to be like oh i'll just audit myself yeah you know exactly so i actually think it was a cop out more than

yeah oh man and so what was the final straw that made you leave and what was that day like

um

so i had come back to the base and it was all like it was just so much worse than it had been and

there was also little things things that are small things but they kind of put me over the edge.

My parents had already left.

And while I was in Australia, I was able to communicate them with a little, communicate with them a little bit.

And they had started to tell me things like that.

Basically, my mom witnessed my uncle beating people.

So there is a lot of that out there.

Yes.

And so your mom had said she's witnessed it.

She witnessed it firsthand.

And is it just, I would imagine, what, other Scientologists who step out of line?

It was basically other senior executives who he was essentially blaming for the Scientology not like

doing so amazingly well.

He would just blame them for everything and punish them for it, keep them imprisoned in this trailer, make them sleep under their desks.

By the way, even at my level where I was at, like they were trying to make us stay up night after night after night.

And I would, like, I would be like, no, I'm going to bed.

And other people would be like, yes, please keep saying that we're going to go to bed.

We'll stay, we'll, we'll do this with you.

And then they would always like bail because they would get in trouble.

And so they were trying to make us stay up night after night.

Like they would even give us like b12 shots in order to keep us energized it's because that's what will wear you down and again it's psychological wear warfare it's keeping you up it's keeping you exhausted to where it not only wears you down but then it makes it easier to plant these ideas and these thoughts into your mind and it it's awful exactly yes and then they would also like go around like just they would do things that

I always thought I was in Scientology to help people, but they would go around the offices like they would have certain enforcers and they they would be like, you can't have this, this protein bar in your desk, throw it away.

So we were already getting $50 a week.

We had to pay for the protein bar and they would force you to throw it away on the spot.

We didn't have money to spend.

We were hungry because, you know, when you eat at six o'clock at night and you are up all night or you don't go home until midnight on the good nights, then so they were just going around doing these needless things and they'd be like, you're not allowed to listen to music.

Turn off the music.

They would do things that weren't even in alignment with Scientology's policies.

Just to be a tyrant.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And I had gotten a hold of a cell phone at that time and a few other people had.

And then they made this base-wide thing.

We had never been allowed to have cell phones before.

But they tried to make this base-wide thing where they were going to take away the cell phones.

And I wound up being the last person on the base willing to give.

Like, I was like, no, you're not taking away my cell phone.

And there was just so much pressure put on me.

So it was between hearing the things from my parents, seeing what was going on,

and being in the mindset of somebody who, who I truly cared about people.

I thought I was sacrificing everything in Scientology so that I could help people.

And when I saw them basically going around to my friends and saying, you can't have food, you can't have music, you can't sleep.

And you guys are destroying everything in Scientology.

You're horrible.

It became this like switching moment where I was like, this isn't, these aren't the actions of people who actually care about helping people.

And I even tried to get myself changed to a different position where I was like only doing Scientology counseling to see if like even Scientology worked.

And that didn't go well.

And I went.

And counseling again to confirm that you were performing the audits then.

Yes, but I was only going through the training.

Like I like, so there's just a few audits that you do in training, but they were like harmless things like teaching people better or people learning to communicate better or whatever.

I was never interrogating anybody, but and it was just like you do brief things at the end of each training level.

I never became a full-on counselor.

But you wanted to see if there were other departments that maybe would feel like, okay, now we're back on track.

This is a better fit.

We are helping people.

Exactly.

And it didn't materialize.

It didn't materialize.

And they, I don't care about this now, but they weren't even following Scientology's policies.

Scientology policies are horrible enough, but they weren't even going by their own.

Like if the policies said staff had a few rights, they ignored those and they brushed them aside consistently.

And because of, because of who my uncle was, the people who I saw doing it to me were at the highest level.

So I think it was easier for me to see that, no, no, this isn't people down at the lower level messing it up.

It's coming from the top.

They care less about Scientology and about people than even people at the lower level.

And so

it was weird.

Like I knew I didn't like it, but there became a point where my body was like, nope, like we can't go back to work today.

Yeah.

We're not doing this.

Like it was even like if I wanted to, it was weird because I was always out of touch with my body because I was always working my ass off, sleeping.

I mean, not sleeping.

And like, I thought I was a spiritual being and I thought any illness I had, I could heal through my mind.

So my body was just considered a meat body that I happened to have this lifetime.

But it was like my body that kind of saved me.

That was like.

We're not doing it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was like, we can't.

And I was just like, this is the first time I felt that way.

I was like, wow, we just can't go back.

And then I was like,

I'm done.

I'm done.

Yeah.

Now, you've said, you've been pretty outspoken how when you left their Scientology is pretty, there, it's known for its intimidation tactics, its stalking, it's just.

smear campaigns, all sorts of things.

There's actually, I'm not going to name her on here for, just in case she doesn't want to be put on blast, but there is another creator who a couple of years ago did like a full deep dive into Scientology, multiple episodes, and ended up having a lot of retaliation from them, being followed, harassed all the way overseas to London, as a matter of fact.

And

I think there's been so many

people who have said firsthand that they have experienced that and that they've been threatened and that they, their reputation has been destroyed, and that there are these, again, just very calculated smear campaigns and, you know, very dangerous things.

And so, you, my point is that you've been outspoken about what it was like for you after you left and how there were people who stood outside your your door at certain times and did certain things.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, absolutely.

So, starting off as I was leaving, Scientology first, basically, you have to go through an interrogation before you leave in order to remain in good standing.

And so, if you don't, then you basically never get to talk to any of your friends or anything like that again.

And they wanted me to do that.

And I was like, I just can't.

Like, I'm not going to.

And basically, they also handed me this contract thing saying, saying, I agree to pay millions of dollars if I speak badly about Scientology.

And I was basically like, at this point, I was like, no.

I just like shredded it up and basically like dropped it in their face.

And so they were telling my husband at the time, who had said he wanted to leave with me, they were basically like, if she leaves and doesn't do this interrogation.

we will make sure you never see your family again.

So they started secretly taking him off

and he would like be coming home later because I would just stay in my room room all day while I was going through this.

And I was basically waiting for him to leave with me.

And they basically convinced him that my family was bad and that if he, and that I was bad, and they were doing this with him every day for hours on end, like just basically brainwashing him, having him on the e-meter and that sort of thing.

And he wasn't telling me, he was lying to me.

Of course.

Yeah.

And then finally, it came down to it, like, where I was like, all right, well, like, he was basically finally like, after me, like,

always trying to get a straight answer out of him he was like yeah i'm not gonna go with you and i was like really upset i was heartbroken you know um we had been through so much together and basically i was like all right well i'm leaving and we were both crying and scientology was basically like he can't even take you to the airport yeah because at that point you're deemed an sp

exactly yeah yes Now he was like, no, I'm going to take her to the airport.

This is the last time I'm going to see see my wife, who I've been married to for three years.

And

he basically said he was going to take me.

So they basically put themselves in the car, like right between us, refused to let us have any privacy.

At the airport,

I was like just so heartbroken.

The girl was standing right there.

This girl who worked in Scientology's Office of Special Affairs, which is basically their like CIA, they handle who they consider enemies of Scientology.

They handle their legal issues.

They're basically the ones that stalk and harass people and make their lives miserable forever talking out, speaking out about Scientology.

And so she was like in our face.

Finally, I told him, I was like, look,

if you want to stay, I'll stay here and I'll get through my program.

I was kind of tricking him.

And then he wound up basically like, I guess, like feeling loved and loyalty from this.

And he was like,

well, this is what's really been happening.

They've been pulling me aside every day.

And how were they not hearing this?

Or they were.

She was there.

And I, but because we were in a public place, because all Scientology cares about is PR.

It's literally all they care about.

Like, it's funny.

Even in my

thing declaring me an SP, like they have this issue.

Like they, they mentioned this incident and they're like, she yelled at me and this created bad PR for Scientology.

Cause I was like, get away.

Leave me and my husband alone.

Because I knew that that's all they cared about.

Yeah.

They all matters is perception at that point.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Okay.

So he's telling you the truth of what's been happening.

She wounded up like going away because it was like, otherwise it was going to create a scene.

And then, but she kept calling him on the phone over and over again.

I like literally broke the phone in half.

I was like, I was at my wit's end at this point.

Yeah.

And so he told me everything that had been happening.

He was like, I'm sorry.

I've been hiding it from you.

And then I was, so basically we went back and we were like, okay, well, I'll do my program.

And then they were like, well, no, now you have to leave.

You're too much trouble, which was true.

By the end, I was troubled.

Like,

I couldn't deal with it.

Yeah, they're like, no, no, no, girl, no take back.

See, we don't want you.

Yeah.

So they tried to separate.

And also, I was at this point, I was in touch with my parents, and I felt, I feel like there was like

they weren't going to be able to trick you back in.

Yeah.

And for the first time, I actually had a place to go.

Like my parents at least were out, or now I was with somebody who had family who actually were a Scientologist.

Anyways, we'll get into that.

And had you seen your parents in person again at this point, or had you only communicated on the phone?

I had seen them once when I was,

I believe it was when I was 17.

And then they had allowed me to visit my parents once for Christmas.

Okay.

And how old were you when you left?

I was 21.

I was almost 22.

Yeah.

Okay.

And so we went back and basically they were like, no,

you can't come back.

Dallas, come with us.

We're going to separate you again.

He was like, no, we're not doing that again.

And he wound up being like, okay, well, I'm done too.

Let us go get our our stuff.

We'll drive down to San Diego, which is where he grew up.

And they're like, no, you can't go get your stuff.

You're out.

You have to leave.

So basically, like,

like my parents had like sent me a credit card that just in case of emergencies.

And Scientology had passed it through to me, but they were like, this is so that you, they can never say we didn't give it to you.

And so like we wound up staying at the travel lodge.

The next morning when we woke up,

there was this huge or not huge.

huge, it was like a U-Haul trailer packed with all of our stuff.

There was like a full inventory of like every little single thing that was in there down to the number of Q-tips.

Like someone had been up all night packing our stuff and counting and taking inventory.

Exactly.

Wow.

What they do also is take away any photos you have that they think are incriminating.

So this is their chance to go through your stuff to make sure that you don't have anything that could hurt them in any way.

It's actually illegal for them not to let me go get my stuff.

Yeah, that seems crazy.

Yeah, it it is crazy.

And so, um, and I'm just curious, what would have happened if you would have basically said to them, like, sorry, I'm in a curse, but like, fuck off.

I'm grabbing my stuff and it just started walking towards your stuff.

Would they physically restrain you?

Definitely.

Yeah.

Like, we actually started doing that.

And they were like, she's coming.

And the security guards were there.

Now, what I should have done at the time was call the cops, but I didn't, like, I had no real experience with the outside world.

I didn't really know my rights.

It's something that I'm still learning right now.

Of course.

So,

and then basically this head security guard like looked right at my ex-husband and he was like, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure your family never speaks to you again.

Oh my gosh.

Cause his family was still in it.

Yes.

So we, so he wanted to go to San Diego, which is where his family was.

So I went with him.

So we went together, but his, his family members were Scientologists.

They were still active Scientology members.

So basically Scientology was like spying on us,

like

seeing where our cars were parked.

They were constantly calling his parents, trying to get information from them about us.

I started working at his parents' jewelry store and they were constantly trying to get me to go back into Scientology.

They were even trying to get like this guy who worked there was trying to audit me.

And they were just trying to get information constantly.

They were trying to get me to go back there and get what Scientology calls a committee of evidence or to get my interrogation.

I was like, no, no, no, no, no, leave me alone.

But his, but

my husband's parents were trying, were basically like

with my husband, they wanted to have him be in good standing as a Scientologist, which involved, so when you leave the Sea Org, you have to pay for all of the courses you are ever made to take while you were in the Sea Org, which is like hundreds of thousands of dollars sometimes.

So they wanted him to pay what, what's called your freeloader debt.

So even though, even though I worked for them since I had a kid, how on earth am I ever going to pay this at $50 a week?

Like, are you out of your freaking mind?

Well, you're not making $50 a week anymore because you only have to pay it when you leave.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But still, it's like the height of insanity.

Like, I've been, I was a slave laborer.

I'm not a freeloader.

You guys are the freeloader.

Oh, exactly.

But so they were trying to pressure him to do that.

And I was like,

I was like, absolutely not.

So he was kind of still brainwashed.

My ex-husband was.

He wound up reading a book, got unbrainwashed.

But his parents it was just like this this it just caused strife between me and his family of course constantly at the workplace I wound up working somewhere else but

one time when we were at work at the jewelry store someone called in and they're like I want to talk to Dallas Hill and they're like yeah I'm just a good Samaritan someone's following you and he was like huh like what do you mean he's like well I have a police scanner your wife went to this hairdresser yesterday you went here and here and here and I'm just saying there's two of them One's a man, one's a woman, and they've been following you for months now.

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So they were following us.

There was also somebody who had been a friend of ours in Scientology.

He basically

showed up at our work one day, said he was in a bad place, that he needed help, he needed support.

And

We let him live with us and even work there for a few months.

And it just wound up that he was basically reporting on us the entire time.

Did your uncle try reaching out to you at all during all this or Shelly?

He did not because at this point, like, like, so many years later, documents have come out

that Mike Rinder had in his possession that were basically his

exchanges with.

my uncle at that time.

So because it's considered a legal issue of concern for the church, my uncle has to put like spacers between me

and whoever my handlers are.

So basically so he can have plausible deniability.

And so that's what was happening.

In addition, even the whole time I was in Scientology, it was like this weird vibe of like, family means nothing.

Yeah.

Like that's how it's supposed to be.

But then I would still be involved with my uncle and my aunt.

So it was sort of this like cognitive dissonance, like

family is supposed to mean nothing.

So I guess it means nothing, but also they're paying close attention to me.

And it means everything.

So I'm trying to impress that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And why do they care so much about what I'm doing if it really means something?

So it was just always like this mind fuck going on all the time.

So, so no, he didn't reach out to me because I think that, you know, he was afraid that

that it would have been something.

And so to this same degree, I feel like me having spoken publicly.

About it, I actually think it was a degree of protection for me.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

I think anybody who has the courage and strength to speak out, you're taking your power back and you're removing it from them because you're like, no, I'm not going to live in the shadows anymore.

I'm not going to stay quiet.

If something, God forbid, does happen to me, I'm on a record now.

I have put this out there and that makes them more nervous and scared.

Exactly.

That's exactly what I think that it was.

And so I remember when I

I believe it was like in,

so the first time I spoke out was, I remember there had been a biography written about Tom Cruise, and it had sort of roasted Scientology and talked about the RPF, the rehabilitation project force, a bunch of things.

And it said how they destroy families.

And Scientology had issued this statement saying, we love families.

Families are great.

And it just, it made me so angry.

I was like, not only do they not feel bad about anything they do, but they are so arrogant.

that they can go out there and tell these lies to everyone and think that they can get away with it while they are ruining my family and my relationship with my in-laws and my husband as we speak.

And so I wound up like writing a letter to the woman who, who had written this rebuttal thing.

And then

like it got picked up by the media and I was doing, I was doing something, I had done something with ABC Nightline

and they had sent some like senior executive Scientologists down to meet with me and my ex-husband.

And they were just like trying to show me all of these Scientology policies and being like, you know, you can't be doing this.

It's bad.

I was like, guys,

those policies mean nothing to me.

Yeah.

They're like, you signed a billion year contract.

You're all eat shit.

Get out of here.

Get out of my face.

Yeah.

And they were even like, well, what would it take for you to not do this?

And I was like, well, I would like for you to make it so all Sea Org members get the a week, a day off every other week, like they're supposed to get.

That's like the bare minimum, a day off every other week.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And so they were like, they were correct members and they're like but we like working this hard we like i was like okay like yeah this is like this isn't happening and then that same day we were being followed by pis and i was just like f this like it's done i never really considered stopping but i did consider them like you know if they're able to have some reform or change things for people yeah then that would matter to me well i think that that's important because you had even mentioned earlier that when you were looking at switching switching departments, it was because your goal was wanting to help people.

And when you were starting to get doubts and you wanted to see, like, is this still an organization that helps people?

So that tracks where is if they maybe did say, like, okay, we will do some reform with the Sea Org, with the ranch, with this and that.

I could see where you, and I totally would understand where you'd be like, okay, then I won't be so outspoken.

I'm like, thank you for doing this.

You're improving the conditions.

You're helping people because that's who you are in your core.

Yes, exactly.

That's what mattered to me.

And so just that didn't happen.

And so I just wound up sort of moving forward from that point.

And

yeah.

And so when my parents had left Scientology, they had not really told anybody in their life that they were in Scientology.

And many people who had left Scientology kind of like kept it a secret.

And I wound up, you know, when I got a new job, I wound up approaching it differently because I could, people, like normal people

always ask questions like where are you from where did you go to school and I'm like Jesus Christ are you the police or something like I was always like how do I answer these questions and so I just wound up being upfront with people and I found that people were very kind in a way that I'd never experienced before like they'd be like oh wow oh my god I'm so sorry yeah and I was like oh they're nice like

and so I felt

I guess I felt like safe in that kind of like everyone, even though I was speaking out, everyone who I knew knew where I was coming from.

And they knew that if anything happened to me, it would be them.

And I was speaking about it publicly.

Well, and it's so interesting because, like, coming from the inside out, it's like, and I'm not speaking for everyone in the population, but I could confidently say I would imagine 90% of the population who are not Scientologists.

have a certain opinion about Scientology.

So to your point, when you're confiding and sharing that, you more than likely nine times out of 10, probably 9.9 times out of 10 will be, you know, on the other end, that somebody will be understanding, sympathetic,

you know, kind to you.

Because I think just the general perspective in the outside world of Scientology is this is a cult.

This is horrific.

This is exploitation.

Like, this is awful.

And so I'm glad that you felt comfortable enough to share.

And I would imagine that that hope, or I would hope I should say, that that would be a little bit cathartic for you to just share more and be honest and feel like you can lift that weight a little bit.

Right.

That's totally how it was.

Like, it actually made me feel really good about the world that I had grown up being so afraid of

was how nice, how people were allowed to be kind to each other.

They weren't required to report on each other.

You know, they weren't going to tell on you.

They were actually going to care about you and check on you.

And things

like that just made me

so happy to not really be in Scientology

anymore.

And then

when I eventually wrote my book, I had had kids around the same time.

And so I wrote my book.

And, you know, I did a book tour and that did well.

But I feel like when I became a mom, I basically was like,

if I fuck this up, then I won't be able to live with myself because of my own upbringing.

And I just like threw every little bit of myself into it and like

was just like trying to be the most perfect mom in the entire universe.

But there was other things like still going on.

Like once you leave Scientology, like it doesn't all just go away.

Like if you grew up not in a home, like never really being loved or doted on or nobody like looking out for your best interests, not having anyone you can fight on, it's like,

like this is a lifetime thing.

Yeah.

You know, you deal with it for the rest of your life.

And so.

you know, at that moment, like I like going through my, my kids' childhood, it taught me so much more about myself, my own life it made me kind of remember bad things and also not be like oh well why

like why didn't my parents want to be around me or it just put my situation in perspective like it's like a mirror just shining back on you yes i was like okay it's i i thought of myself like oh i'm fine but when i imagine things happening to my kids that happened to me it actually makes me furious not just on my behalf but for all kids who grew up there and because you're a human you're a normal human exactly yeah yeah and having this organization still out there yeah that just thinks that they can get away with everything

but i i kind of had to partition my mind like where i can't be angry for this period because i have to be a good mom and so i was raising my kids for you know many years now my daughter's 13 my son is 16 and I got divorced a couple years ago.

Me and my ex-husband are still great friends.

We have a great relationship.

We've been through so much together but we did get married when we were 18 in a cult

there's that

yes did he has he gone back to scientology no no he's totally yeah he's he's not in scientology his his parents took a while to get out of scientology and like they're not active Scientologists, but I think they still, I think when you get out when you're older, it's hard to let go

of some of these things.

It's your belief system and it's ingrained in you.

Yeah.

And it makes you have to like rethink your choices you made for your children in your whole life.

And so

his dad has passed away now, but his mom, like, she doesn't practice it.

She's not involved, but like occasionally she'll say certain things that I'm like,

yeah.

But

yeah.

So I think that

sort of like entering into like this healing phase of like, you know, now that I'm divorced, I have a little bit of sometimes time to myself where I'm able to get back into more of the Scientology things and really,

while I always put my kids first, it's like for the first time in my life, I'm learning to value myself and my opinions.

And because when I was raising my kids, I was in a little bit of an atmosphere where people were all ex-Scientologists.

I kind of had to like push how I felt down.

in order to survive in that arena where I sort of became a little bit of a shadow of myself after losing everyone I'd ever known from Scientology.

And so now I feel like I'm speaking out again because I'm kind of coming back to myself.

Like that's great.

Yeah.

Like I'm starting to like go back to the old me where I'm living life on my own terms and I'm actually valuing myself in a way that I was never taught to my entire life.

I love that so much because I think too,

nobody has the kind of knowledge that you have about this situation.

No matter how much research is done, whatever books are read.

And I would imagine that that gives you, or it at least should, it should give you a lot of purpose.

And you should be incredibly proud of that because nobody can learn the way that you are now delivering this information and educating the public on it.

And I totally get what you meant by you became a shadow of yourself and you had to suppress that because you were surrounded by ex-Scientologists.

And it's like now you're getting back into your space, feeling confident, sharing that, and having your voice be heard.

And I think that's so powerful.

Thank you.

I love that so much.

I have to ask, I, there's some questions that I know people are gonna like want to kill me if I don't ask.

And it's what people probably always ask.

So, I'm gonna hit you with some questions.

If anything is too sensitive or too controversial, just say not answering that.

Okay, that works.

What are, would you say, are some of the top

call it top three or top five, like unknown dark secrets of Scientology?

You mentioned your uncle and like the closed doors, closed door beatings and things like that.

Like what are some like dark parts that maybe are a little bit less known?

Well

my biggest thing about Scientology is how they basically use children

as slave labor.

They did in my time.

Now, I don't think that they are, they allow,

like they don't have the cadet orgs like they they did, but children are still allowed to get Scientology auditing and training.

And that training

consists of things that are entirely inappropriate for children, like where you basically are required to do certain communication drills where you are

violently hazed and where there's an adult, in my case, who's basically pointing out things about your growing body

in a room full of other adults.

and you're basically learning not to react if somebody treats you badly or makes fun of you or whatever.

What age does that start at?

That started when I was 12.

Oh my gosh.

But this is if, so this is if a child is training to become a counselor, which Scientology moms on their Facebook groups or even Scientology itself puts out certificates of like 16 year olds holding their certificate completing this course.

Well, that's what being on that course means.

Like not just me, for everyone, for all of the other kids who are on that course at the same time as me.

That's a huge problem.

Like that's teaching a kid to normalize sexual harassment and abuse.

Yes, absolutely.

So also when a child becomes a counselor, they learn to take confessions.

So they wind up being in situations where they're taking confessions from adults.

of the same sex, of the opposite sex, talking about their personal private intimacy things that they did that they feel are sins.

And they're having to live with that and store that information.

Yes, they're having to write it down.

They're having to take these confessions from adults and it's completely inappropriate.

Children are also required to give these confessions.

Like I'll just give you an example.

Like in Scientology growing up, like touching yourself was not allowed.

And if you do, you have to confess it.

And you're confessing it on an e-meter.

with a video camera.

If you try to leave the room, you're physically barred from leaving the room.

Part of training as a counselor is practicing how to stop people from leaving a room.

I tried to leave the room many times during a confessional and was physically barred, was even chased down the street.

And so

you're basically required to give these confessions.

And they don't just, you don't just say what you did.

They say, when was it?

Where was it?

How many times?

Give me all of the details.

It's, there's no adult in the room.

In my case, my parents were across the country.

And when they're recording it in this way and writing it down, and then they're passing this information, like each counseling session has a case supervisor.

This is actually child P.

Yeah.

But you don't see it like that when you're there.

But this still happens right now.

Yes.

This still happens right now in Scientology.

There are Scientology schools that have had serious issues with child SA, but in Scientology, you are forbidden to report another Scientologist to the authorities.

So instead, I just want to make sure I'm understanding this right.

And for those listening, I know you abbreviated the word porn.

I appreciate that.

You know what, though?

We're going to just say it because it is so important and it's a very serious issue.

So in these auditing sessions and these counseling sessions, other children and adults sometimes would disclose when they would masturbate, when they would have sexual relations, different things like that, oftentimes child to child, which is what I assume you mean by the child porn because then adults are watching it, it's video recorded, they're recounting these events.

Exactly.

But then, even further, there has been child sexual assault

as a separate thing in the organization.

But because you're not allowed to tell the authorities about another Scientologist, you then go to this counseling session to report it and work through it.

Exactly.

So, where in fact, you also, like just say you're the predator who did this thing, right?

You have to pay for your counseling session where you tell this.

So Scientology is making money off of this confession.

Your trauma and your, and your predatory behaviors and what's happened.

Exactly.

And in some way, giving you absolution.

How much is a counseling session?

I think it varies in different Scientology churches.

You pay by 12 hours.

And so I actually never had to pay for it because, and to be honest, most of the time I was giving, given interrogations, like I actually wasn't moving up the chart.

It was just like side interrogations just to harass the shit out of me.

You said, though, that's really interesting.

You said sometimes they'll give absolution to where then they get the repentance that they were after, which is like, no, I'm sorry.

You deserve jail time, you freak.

Exactly.

And nothing is done with the victims.

Yeah.

Nothing.

Like, I've been on the other side of that and nothing was done.

And also, just to like maybe give another example of what we're talking about.

And if this is jumping around, we don't have

to.

But just about the child P aspect of it.

Like, so for example, like when my parents were leaving, I was being security or I was being interrogated.

The Scientology word is security check, but I'm using a regular word.

Okay, so by this woman who is at least 35 years old in a room with a video camera on.

And she was saying like, did you violate our rules of sexual behavior?

And so I was like, no.

And she was like, well, what's that?

What are you thinking of?

What's that right there?

She would be looking at the e-meter.

And I would say, well, I kissed this boy.

That's not violating the rules.

And she'd be like, okay, but you were forbidden to date this boy.

So

we're going to take this up as a sin.

And I was like, well, I don't think it is.

But she's like, all right, well, when was it?

It was in this place.

Okay.

Like, how close was he standing to you?

Did you

feel living it?

Oh, yeah.

Like, did you feel his private parts?

Like, like, what kind of underwear were you wearing?

Oh, my God.

Were you wearing those underwear on purpose in case, like, he saw them?

Like, so this is me when I was 16 years old.

And I, like, I told her over and over I didn't want to be in the room.

I didn't want the video recording on.

It doesn't, like, it just didn't matter.

But this is something that a Scientologist would not see as problematic.

They would see it as her saving me by confessing.

And I myself was like, well, I have no right to leave this room, but I had no, my parents weren't there.

Like, I'm totally normal.

Oh my gosh, that is infuriating.

Yeah.

So that still goes on in Scientology today, whether you're a Sea Org member or whether you're just a paying member.

That still happens in Scientology today.

And that's a big, like,

on some level, although I don't love adults being there,

like, I feel like they have some options not many i still empathize with them but being a kid it's like you have none no you're just indoctrined into this cult to where you don't have any other knowledge or way of thinking or like any life outside of that and so you're almost built and set up for failure exactly exactly horrible yeah and to have no other options and so That's my biggest, that's my biggest thing about Scientology.

They do other things, like they, they screw over the elderly who work with them.

And also, like we touched on briefly, my uncle actually taking these high-level Scientology executives who would speak at Scientology events and basically imprisoning them in these trailers and making fun of them, hazing them, making like brainwashing them to go after each other in order to save themselves and literally physically beating them.

Like,

and this, like, these accounts have come come from multiple different Scientology executives who have left.

And there's just so many stories of it that corroborate each other that it's impossible not to believe.

Do you think your uncle is just at this point,

he's such a powerful person and he has so many people who work for him who report underneath him to where he just feels untouchable and like he's God?

I think so.

I think that what you described is right.

But I also think that

with, you know, he's able to access the internet.

He knows what the outside world is saying about him or about Scientology.

And I think that gives him a certain level of paranoia.

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Let me ask you this.

Do you think that your uncle still believes in Scientology as wholeheartedly as maybe he did in the beginning?

Or do you think through all of this and through seeing what the internet says and not being shielded like so many other members are, that he now understands more or less like or has doubts about it, but is still rolling with it because it's financially beneficial for him?

He has power.

Like, do you think he knows it's a cult?

And, or do you think he fully is immersed and a believer?

I feel like that's the question that I have.

I, when I learned all of the things that he know, has known this whole time as a kid, I was like,

nope.

Like, like meaning, like, we're taught in Scientology to believe that L.

Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, intentionally dropped his body, which is died, and he was moving on to Target 2, where he was going to heal that planet.

He knows that L.

Ron Hubbard died a lunatic, like a normal person, and like it wasn't cute.

He's known that this whole time.

I don't see how an adult man who knows all the people who have tried to sue Scientology, who knows, like, like even El Ron Hubbard had certain levels of Scientology that he promised that he would release at some point.

Well, well, Scientology doesn't really have those.

Elron Hubbard didn't actually write those.

The executives have come out saying that, yeah, that's not true.

Basically, they were just ramblings of a madman.

I mean, even the Zenu stuff, which they did release, like that was a crazy person enough.

Anyways, so my uncle knows everything.

I don't, like, I just do not see how he could possibly

believe in that.

In every way, not only that, but you're taught to believe that in Scientology, when you raise up, when you get up to the higher levels, you're, you're going to get these godlike powers, like telepathy, to exist independent of your body.

He can't do that.

And he knows that.

And he knows he's the main guy.

Yeah.

So if he can't do it who who can yeah so

when i was still in when i was talking to my aunt shelly she was definitely still a true believer

so it has now been many many years um i just don't see how he can be i just it makes no sense to me that's actually my next question

everybody always is asking especially the last several years where is shelly prove give proof of life let us know that you're okay to your knowledge and i know that there has been mention of some sightings of her in Arrowhead here in California, going to the hairdresser, doing things like that.

Right.

And based on like your experience and any knowledge you have in the family, when is the last time that someone spoke to Shelly?

I believe it was when her father died in 2007.

Okay.

And the last time that a confirmed sighting has happened, when was that?

In the family?

Yeah.

I don't know because we're not all in touch with each other people in the family have to stay away from me in order to be in touch with other people in the family so nobody like speaks under the radar or anything

you don't have to say if you don't want to yeah okay yeah that's um

but

i am in touch with people

who like the thing is that like i get my information from a source that i completely trust but in order to basically put other people, give other people peace of mind, I would have to tell them everything.

But that's, that's not good

for,

in order to keep this source there and knowing that they can tell more things.

So yeah.

So, but it is somebody who like it's, I absolutely believe them.

And yeah.

Do you think that your Aunt Shelly

is still involved in Scientology?

Or do you think that she has tried breaking away and that's why she's not seen or heard from?

She's absolutely still involved in Scientology.

I mean, the base that she is at, where she works, it's basically what they do is they put Scientology scripture onto these titanium plates so that Scientology scripture can survive a nuclear Holocaust.

So she works at that base, which is a very high-level base.

But I guess my question is, do we know she's even still at that base if nobody has seen her?

Well, nobody outside of, well, so people have seen her.

When's the last time somebody saw her?

Like people on the base, you mean, are seeing her.

Sorry, I'm just like, no, that's okay.

That's okay.

I mean, I like, could we just like, this is between you and me?

Yeah, we'll talk, we'll talk after.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

But I'm not sure how to answer your question without.

You don't have to.

Okay.

Well, yeah.

We'll just talk after.

So people's still very much involved.

She is okay.

She's healthy.

She's a willing participant.

Yes.

Absolutely.

Yes.

Okay.

And I want to touch on this too, because here's my question with that, I guess, too, is, and I don't know if you have the answer to this, but with so much public speculation out there of

where's Shelly?

David, tell us where Shelly is.

What'd you do to her?

Did she try to leave?

If she is a willing participant and if she is still there and is being seen on the base regularly, why not just, it's giving Scientology a bad rap and bad press, which they obviously are hyper-focused on.

So why wouldn't she just come forward and say, hey, I'm here.

I'm fine.

All is good.

I'm going to, you know, retreat for another 10 years.

Right.

Totally.

That's a great question.

And the answer is, as much as Scientology cares about bad press, they're also extremely petty.

and vengeful and they have certain rules in Scientology with how to deal with critics of Scientology.

And

if they were to bring Shelley forward, in my opinion, I feel like they would be setting a precedent that every time Leah Remini or some other SP critic starts demanding people that they're going to now have to bring them out and show them.

And the truth is that as much as Shelly is missing, there's so many other people who were never involved with any celebrities who would ask where they were.

You know, Shelly wasn't wasn't really a public Scientologist.

She didn't speak at Scientology events.

So there's so many other people who are missing in the same way that Shelly is missing, which really they're just members of a cult.

So we could start this for every member of Scientology.

And so it would be setting a precedent where Scientology now has to

do something for someone who they hate, prove them right, Leah Remini.

And then they would have to, what if they didn't do that for the next person?

Does that mean that they could produce shelly but then they couldn't produce this other person so that's that's an interesting take and i saw too on one of your later latest videos you said shelly was equally as evil as your uncle david and would barricade and you know hold people like not trap them i maybe i don't want to put words in your mouth and to where i then saw your comment section kind of flood with like oh instead of like save shelly where's shelly we're now saying fuck shelly like she's a part of this yeah yeah right i mean it's it's hard to say, like, like, I don't think Shelly's as evil as my uncle, but at this point, like, what does it matter?

Like, she was his right hand woman this entire time from the beginning of when he became the leader up until like, I guess, 2005, but still that's the entire time I was there.

Yeah.

You know, at that time.

children were still being

trained in these boarding schools.

SA was being covered up in these boarding schools.

Adults were who committed the SA were being sent to the RPF, like the Rehabilitation Project Force, and none of this was reported.

So she was a part of everything my uncle did.

Everybody there who worked with them knows that this is true.

She was his right-hand person, knew of everything, and was directly involved in my treatment the entire time.

It was Shelly who said, you may not call your parents.

Oh my gosh.

It was Shelly who ordered me to get these interrogations and who ordered someone to stand outside my door all the time in case I tried to escape.

So

it's hard.

Like she also grew up there.

So did my parents.

So did my uncle.

But at some point, it's like,

yes, we all, we all grew up there.

It was all horrible, but you have to be responsible for the choices you make in your life, especially if they're illegal.

Yes, absolutely.

And when children are involved, it's like all the gloves are off.

Like it's time to like figure it out, be an adult, and to your point, be responsible for your actions.

Exactly.

Even if you were once a child there, you know, unfortunately, many abusers were also abused.

And that's the sad part of the story.

And I can have empathy for Shelly because of that.

But when she stops being a part of it, you know, that's when,

you know, and this is, this is like on a whole other scale.

I mean, this is a whole systemic organization that is, that is doing these things all day, every day.

Oh my gosh, it's awful.

It's awful.

So I want to just then,

you know, leave off with a simple question, which I think I know the answer to.

As David Miscavige's niece, do you believe Scientology is a cult?

Yes, Scientology is definitely a cult.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, I want to thank you so much for being here today and for speaking to me.

Is there anything else that you feel like you want people to know?

No, I mean, I think we covered so much, but I am really grateful for all of the outpouring of support that I get, people who are willing to share my story.

I'm really thankful to you and just so many people like,

I don't know if you've heard of Streets LA,

but he's out there.

Like I see him actively stopping kids from going into being recruited by Scientology or Jessica Palmadessa or Aaron Smith Levin actively spreading the word about Scientology.

Like it just means so much to me.

When I imagine myself as a kid in there, like I just wish that these people were around.

Absolutely.

And so, yeah, I just want to say thank you to you.

And thanks to everyone else who's sharing my story.

Thank you.

All right.

I know today was a little bit longer of an episode, but I really appreciate you guys tuning in.

I am so thrilled that Jenna was able to come in studio and share her perspective and her firsthand account of her experience.

It's so powerful and so brave.

And so, thank you for hearing her story as well.

And we'll just keep an eye on this.

Hopefully, I don't start having spies outside of my office or my house.

But if it happens, you guys know who is to blame, right?

If something goes down, you know who is after me for doing this episode.

But again, it is one that was too important to not share.

So thank you so much for being here today.

And we're going to sign off by saying this: don't join a cult.

Don't join Scientology.

All right, guys.

Thanks so much.

Bye.

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