#196 Joshua Broome - "Rocco Reed," Inside The Adult Film Industry

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I went there and got drugged.

I thought it was my fault.

I was filming in Atlanta.

It was a disgusting shoot.

Like, people were like urinating on each other, spinning on my face, in my mouth, stuff like that.

I'm just like, what have I become?

I was like, I want to die.

I didn't realize that that scene was for the most popular website in America.

at that time.

When I heard the pain in her voice and she said, why did you do that?

Satan said to me,

see,

you're exactly who you thought you were.

Joshua Broom, welcome to the show, man.

Man, so glad to be here.

What an honor.

I'm pumped to have you.

So we got a mutual friend, Victor Marks, huh?

What a guy.

Victor shot me a text this morning, and I love hearing from Victor.

You never know what you're going to hear.

You never know.

But a four-minute voice memo of just chaos.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I'm pumped that you know him.

And

that just reinforces, you know, you're good people to be around if Victor's hanging out with you.

So, so once again, thank you for coming, man.

And

so we're going to talk about

a little bit of your life story.

an insight into the adult film industry, what got you out of it, and being a pastor now so so and i'm sure we'll go down a handful of rabbit holes you know um throughout the interview but i'm really curious you know it's i mean the adult film industry is huge what's that girl's name this is the girl that's she's like she slept with a thousand guys in 24 hours or something like that i and i and now like now it seems like all these other

Girls are like trying to top it.

You just keep hearing this stuff.

Like there was some other girl.

I think it was in Miami, she was shooting a film set or like some kind of a gangbang or something on a balcony and like fell off the balcony to her death.

Yeah.

I mean, I think what we're seeing is, you know, content creation became a legitimized career.

And then because we live in an oversexualized culture,

and then you see the

birth and rise up of OnlyFans, those worlds kind of intermeshed.

And it really happened during COVID.

During COVID, OnlyFans

production, people who were participating in OnlyFans went up by 1,600%.

1,600%?

1,600%.

And then

porn consumption went up 400%.

Wow.

But what you would see is essentially they were using social media like a funnel in that, you know, I've met with many girls who used to be in OnlyFans or girls that worked on the marketing arm of OnlyFans.

And the way they would work is, you know, once a girl became popular, once they became, you know, the top 10%,

they would grab that girl and they would say, hey, we're going to represent you.

We're going to take great care of you.

And they would bring them into a studio and they would shoot all this stock footage.

And they would say, hey, we're going to 10x.

You know, the way that you're being monetized because we're going to shoot all this footage and then we're going to have, you know 30 random you know guys in a basement in the Philippines or whatever they're they're going to be chatting with the people so they're going to have your password you're not going to have to be on OnlyFans anymore we're just going to shoot all this stock content and it's like catfishing 2.0 where you know you pay per message per video per picture and then you got a guy sitting there pretending to be her and you're talking with these people and they're saying you know whatever in the comments and they're just plugging, playing stuff from stock footage.

So once a month they just go and shoot all this footage.

Now you got this, you know, this stuff to work with and you're just plugging and playing.

So now they can be talking to 30 people at once, but they're talking to no one at all.

And then, you know, they're getting, you know, 75, 80% of that revenue.

Damn.

So you're not even, so to the person that is, you know, addicted to OnlyFans, if you're talking to a popular creator, I can almost guarantee you you're not talking to that that person.

No kidding.

Why do you think that, I mean, we're going to get way more in-depth on this stuff later on, but I mean,

where does this shit end?

Yeah.

I mean, it's just, it's just, I mean, it's like anything else you see, right?

But it's just, they're constantly one-upping each other.

Like, oh, how, how,

you know, how disgusting can I make it?

You know, a thousand, a thousand

dudes in 24 hours.

yeah i mean what does that even look like i mean how do you even recruit that yeah i mean unfortunately it's it's pretty easy um and i because like i you know i was in the porn industry for almost seven years and you know when when girls would do gang bangs um because like guys

that were like professionally like in the industry for the most part didn't do gang bangs because a director is not paying you know top

you know because you you have a day rate.

You have an individual rate that you make per day.

So you're not paying that per guy.

You know, so you're finding anyone off the street that's willing to go get an SED and AIDS test.

So you're probably, you might not be paying them at all.

So you, you know, and these girls, again, they got all these fans.

All you got to do is post a story in the comments saying, hey, anyone in this vicinity that follows me,

do you want to be part of of this?

Go get a test, bring the test here, and you get to have sex with me.

And it works.

And that's like where like social media is working like a funnel now where the girls, they're supposed to be provocative on TikTok.

And in the TikTok, it says, go to my IG.

And on IG, there's a, you know, a...

a little link in their page and here's my link tree and on my link tree is my only fans and it's just a big funnel um to sell porn geez geez what do you isn't kanye west getting back into the

not back into?

Was he getting into it?

He just had his girlfriend pretty much naked at whatever award show that was.

I don't follow any of this.

Yeah, it's wild, man.

Because like.

And kids were around.

It's like little kids looking at this.

Yeah.

Like you see like Kanye go from someone who was having these like these like church things.

Yeah, right.

And had like pretty decent like Christian rap come out and then like really like go on this this like bender but I would say man like the guy experienced significant brokenness in his life and I think to the person saying man how could this person actually know Jesus I think he liked the idea of Jesus but

For Jesus to invade and to

help you, to invade your heart, you have to surrender and submit.

And

that's not a natural thing,

especially to the guy who has millions upon millions of dollars and everyone around him saying like, you're the guy, you're the guy, you're the guy.

For you to say, I'm not the guy.

And

the way to find healing and wholeness is for me to bend my knee to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

That's very different than acknowledging that something exists.

So I would just say, I think he liked the idea of Jesus, and then he experienced some brokenness, and he was trying really hard to to to be okay and he just wasn't.

Yeah.

Because he's just kind of been up, down, up, down, up, down.

But I saw like he, he got kicked off of Twitter because he just went on this like rampage.

He posted like porn like for you know two or three hours, like non-stop, just posting like hardcore pornography right after that happened.

Like right after he showed up to the award show with this, with the girl.

Is it his wife?

I don't know.

Or whoever who's like he was he was married to a Kardashian and they got, you know,

I mean,

I don't know what, I don't know exactly what happened, but it's sad.

It's sad.

Yeah.

You know, well,

I got your whole life's outline right here, but I don't really want to go down the outline.

I just, I think this is going to be a very fascinating conversation.

And

so I just want to riff.

Yeah.

And I hope you're okay with that.

But, you know, I really want to talk about,

you know, in a lot of my interviews, we talk about like the effects of of war and and and and extreme trauma and how to get over it and what that does and yeah the rabbit hole you know the downward spiral that sends you on and i gotta i just have this feeling that

this is gonna be

very similar to that absolutely and um and to be honest with you i've been i tried to get Jenna Jamieson to come on here and to talk about this.

I've been trying to get her for years, but

I think she's got some health stuff going on.

But

yeah it's just always been a subject that i'm i've been really interested to dive into and and especially like i don't are you familiar with like the the the effects that it you know that it has on kids oh absolutely and and the addictions and all that kind of i mean this stuff is like

really bad yeah i mean you you look at you know look at research average age of exposure three years ago was 11 is trending towards eight years old now and um eight eight years old and and what's interesting is so 84% of first-time exposure to pornography for kids it's second-hand exposure meaning that they they weren't looking for it they were either on an unprotected device and if it was looking for them

because we this is the world that we live in because of streaming and things like that like you everything has porn on it to the extent depend on what your definition of porn would be

and then

just you know being at you know, school or someone else's home, and then it was shown to them.

But it's crazy, man.

Not to come out swinging, but I would say probably the most dramatic thing I would share with you is that,

so a really good friend of mine, she's a, she, she once was a critical care nurse in

Kansas City, Missouri.

About six months ago, she started a nonprofit and she's just speaking on this full time.

But she started seeing a reoccurring theme and it was that, so she was an examiner for sexual abuse cases of children.

And she was noticing over and over again that two things were happening, that the abuser of the child was

between 10 to 14 years old and it was a sibling.

And she was like, well, is in and it was a lot of cases like that in Kansas City.

And she's like, is there just something weird going on here?

And she started asking her peers in different places.

Her name is going with this.

Yeah.

I think I know where you're going with this.

I interviewed somebody a while ago where I was talking with somebody.

And

we were talking about, like before the show, we were talking about the sexual exploitation of kids.

And

are you going into

he told me that the number one

most searched type of porn is incest?

Yes.

Is that where you're going with this?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, just the reality that, so in around 60% of the sexual assault cases that happen to children in the United States, the perpetrator is A,

between

10 to 14 years old, and B, it's a sibling.

So that's, it's in the 60% in the U.S., it's higher in Europe, highest in Australia, around 73%.

And then fastest growing niche of pornography is incestual, the step-bro, step-sister stuff.

And the reality is, a hundred percent of the cases, the kids are addicted to porn.

They're watching porn, they're developing fantasies, and then they're superimposing these fictitious desires.

They're imposing them on their sibling.

They're tying up their brother and sister and raping them because they've developed an appetite for something that they don't know what to do with, and the porn doesn't again.

Like we were talking earlier, this belief

that you can consume something and it not have a real impact on your output, like in what world does that make sense?

You can't, like whatever you ingest, once it metabolizes, there has to be somewhere for it to go.

Wow.

So to the person thinking, you know, porn's harmless, who can it hurt?

Kids.

There you go.

And at a significant rate.

Well, we'll get more into that real quick.

Let me, everybody starts out with an intro.

Joshua Broome, you're a guy who went from a small town, South Carolina, to the bright lights of Hollywood, chasing the acting dream, only to fall into the adult film industry.

You became Rocco Reed, starring in over 1,000 films and raking in over a million dollars as one of the top male performers on the planet.

You're a man who hit rock bottom, staring down depression and suicidal thoughts until God stepped in.

You're a voice behind the counterfeit culture podcast and the unmentionable docuseries, taking the fight to the very industry you once ruled.

You're now a pastor, a husband, and a father of four.

And something else I want to dive into is spiritual warfare.

Yeah.

As you know, we got a Patreon account.

They're our top supporters.

They've been with us since the beginning when I was doing this in the attic of my house.

And

their supports brought us here.

And now we're building a new studio.

I got an amazing team who you've met.

And so one of the things I do is I offer them

each and every guest that comes on, they get the opportunity to ask a question.

And so this one's from Stephen Casey.

What would you recommend to parents of children so that they could set up their families' habits to prevent their children from being lured either passively or actively into the environment that caused you so much grief and pain and is hurting others, the porn industry?

Yeah, I mean, you know this as someone who was in the military and, you know, anyone that's been around athletics, I have to have good self-awareness before I can have discipline.

So

for us as parents,

we can't believe that we can just protect our kids from the world.

You know, the Bible tells us that bad things will happen.

You know, that the world

is not

a safe place.

You can't protect your kids from everything.

So I would say the way that you protect them is you inform them.

So talk about sex in an age-appropriate way that is real and that is helpful.

There's a book called A Good Book.

I think it's Good Book, Bad Pictures.

And so I think it's been around for about 20 years, but there's a theme in it that's helpful for even adults.

There are bad pictures in the world that you probably will see.

But if you see those pictures, that doesn't make you bad.

So if you see them, if you're hungry, run to mom and dad.

Scared, run to mom and dad.

See something you shouldn't see, come tell mom and dad so that we can process it with you.

Because if you don't create a space to have that conversation, what you don't talk about says something.

So I would say that's the biggest problem with porn sex, you you know, in the church, where it's not talked about in the way that gives people a comfortability of talking about it.

Because anytime that you would say porn or sex and you cringe, you probably have an unhealthy relationship with it.

say, hey, you know, sex is this beautiful thing.

This is how you got here, you know, to your son, to your daughter.

And, you know, explain it in a way that makes sense.

And also, we need to protect ourselves from the world.

The world is a dangerous place trying to come at us.

So Bark is a really great piece of technology where

you, you know, bark.org is the website, and you get to control everything that your children have access to if they're going to use any kind of smart technology.

And what I love about it is you get a report of everything that they see and everything that they're sent.

So, if you are allowing them to use text messages, emails, things like that, you will get a notification if someone's, you know, there's bullying, there's any kind of conversation around self-harm either by them or someone else anything pornographic any key words and then you can have a healthy conversation where instead of being accusatory of hey

I know that I saw this you know you know that I saw this so you know you know fess up

you can say hey is there anything that you know was said to you or you saw today that you want to talk about with me

so I would say that's that's how we have to navigate that conversation because what we don't say is not helpful, but it also says something.

Because, you know, Romans 12, 2, either you're being conformed by the world or you're being transformed by the renewing of your mind.

So the world is going to teach you, but the prince of the air, the devil, wants to teach you something that's drastically different than what God wants to teach you.

Yeah, you know, I mean, with the phone stuff, we were just talking about Ryan Montgomery, my friend before the podcast, and he had an interesting quote that made a hell of a lot of sense to me.

He said,

When you give your kid a phone, you're not giving your kid access to the world, you're giving the world access to your kid.

And that's resonated with me ever since.

And, you know, but you had mentioned,

you had mentioned it age-appropriate.

What is age-appropriate now?

I mean, you just mentioned earlier that eight years old is eight-year-olds.

How old are your kids?

So, my kids, so Canon is almost seven,

but so six, four, three, and one.

So, I mean, for example, Canon, last year when he was still six,

he, there's this, uh, this apologetics camp that I always speak at, and I teach sexual ethic.

And he comes with me because I'm not saying anything that's inappropriate.

I'm saying everything that's true, and everything that I'm saying is, is biblically accurate.

Um, so he, he's heard me, you know, he's he sits, you know, up on stage, and you know, he's probably like drawing, you know,

paw patrol or something like that but he he's hearing me he's listening um

so i would say it's it's like there there's no like line in the sand um with kids just you know uh pay attention to them and just know your kids i mean how do you how do you bring it up yeah have you had any one-on-ones yet yeah i mean you know just like you know just the fact that we've got four kids like mommy's pregnant you know where where is this baby coming from you know um you know mommy's parts are different than ours.

You know, we get we're, you know, she's, she's, you know, outmanned in our house significantly.

But they're just asking questions, you know, like, what, you know,

why do I have something different than mom?

You know, what,

where do babies come from?

Stuff like that.

They're just kind of naturally inquisitive.

So we just tell them the truth, you know.

And I think you, but like, you know, we don't get, you know, over,

we don't overexplain ourselves.

We just say it, you know, matter of fact, and it is what it is.

And I think, like, when you make, when you make it a bigger deal than it should be, it becomes a big deal, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think about this stuff all the time.

You know, I got a got little ones.

Yeah.

And

it just,

man, the shit that's out there now just is terrifying.

Yeah.

And I, I, I can see how it will,

I mean, it can destroy

your mind in those certain aspects of

in just so many ways.

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Well, another thing, you know, I was sharing with you around like the whole

incest thing regarding like the niche and pornography and all the stuff that's happening with sexual assault.

But in addition to that,

you know, image-based like sexual exploitation, you know, that that's a new thing that's on the rise, and especially with young men.

But the importance of kids not watching porn is this.

There's a new scam that's on the rise.

And I think

so far this year, this has happened, I think, around like 170,000 times.

It's been documented where a kid was approached by a scammer.

And

they have a fictitious profile, looks like a cute girl, and they have an interaction with a guy.

And they say,

you know,

they send them a fake naked picture.

And they said, you send me one back.

And once they send one,

got you.

Okay.

I want you to send me $500

or I've hacked your account.

I'm going to send this photo to everyone at your school, all of your family.

You got 24 hours.

And

I think around 150 of those kids committed suicide.

Wow.

Because as a teenage boy, you're like, my whole life is ruined.

Yeah.

Or a girl.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

And it's wild because around like, around 90% of those cases are guys.

But yeah, I mean,

it's everywhere.

That's why it's so important to have those conversations because

you don't send a naked photo to someone you don't know online unless you've been watching pornography.

Like that's not

a rational thought unless your mind has been corrupted and perverted in a way that, and I believe, you know, maybe there's a, you know, exceptions to this, but for the most part, like that thinking comes from pornography.

Yeah, you know, I mean,

I was talking to somebody else and they were talking about, you know, how this, you know, it starts, it starts with regular, it starts with, I don't know, Sports Illustrator.

Yeah.

And then it's, and then it's Playboy, and and then it's softcore porn, and then it's hardcore porn, and then it's gangbangs, and then it's, you know, it just gets, and then it goes into the incest stuff.

And they were talking about how

young men, boys get addicted to this, and it just keeps getting, you know, more perverted and more perverted and more perverted.

And at the same time, the kids that are the same age, the girls, are online and they're getting exploited.

And they're only talking to older men online because or they get they get trapped like you were just saying but it's it's hey do you want this Louis Vuitton bag cool send me this then they're blackmailed or they're not and they're only interested in older men because they

shoot some pictures or take some videos of themselves for

the new iPhone a new purse whatever the latest fad is and so that takes the interest away from the boys so then the boys don't even have anybody to go date.

And it's like this fucking thing.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, that's why, I mean, we live, we, we're living in a post-Christian United States.

Um, I mean, luckily, there, there, there's been some, you know, progress in the right direction.

I saw Bible sales are up 22%,

you know.

But for the most part, it's like the world is looking dark and bleak in some ways.

Um,

but yeah, it's it's nuts, man.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, everybody gets a gift on the show

gummy bears.

Thank you so much.

Made in the USA.

No funny business.

Just candy.

They're horrible for you, but they taste great.

Awesome.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, you're welcome.

I have something for you.

Oh, nice.

So I have a copy of my book.

Copy of my book.

And what I love to do, so that book, so seven lives that'll ruin your life.

So really it's like, hey, here are seven lies from culture that negatively impacted my life.

And then here's seven truths from God's word that kind of eradicated that lie and gave me a new foundation to stand on.

And if you, you know, kind of like a

progressive overloading like workout plan, if you do, you know, 10 sets of two for 10 weeks, you will get stronger.

And the same way if you apply God's word to your life, your life will change.

But man, my life, like just me, me being in this room, you know,

how, you know, like God had a plan, you know, but I would say

my life has been made up of people inviting me into places that I don't have any business being into because they saw something in me and people that gave me time that they didn't have.

And so this is my friend Jonathan Pecluda's new book.

It says it's called Your Story Has a Villain.

And he just did like a two or three year deep dive into spiritual warfare.

Grew up Catholic,

kind of, you know, threw it by the wayside and kind of lived for the world and, you know, was very successful in the marketplace and then came to faith later in life.

And, you know, he's been part of, you know, some of those college revivals that you've been seeing, like baptizing thousands of people at college campuses and stuff.

He was a part of that?

Yeah, so

he's one of the people that have been part of each event, him and Ginny Allen, along with Tanya.

But yeah, so he's there preaching at every event and baptizing those kids.

But

it's wild

because he poured into this guy, Andrew, that poured into me and just kind of a neat discipleship circle.

But I wanted to give you that.

Thank you.

Because I love giving people literature that was

simple, it's clear, and

it was a game-changer for me.

But he's somebody that, you know, Proverbs 27, 6 talks about the wounds of a friend.

And while, you know, sometimes you need to hear,

you know, encouragement, but you know, every once in a while, you need a kick in the butt, you know.

So, yeah, thank you.

Can't wait to dive.

We've been tracking this guy.

Yeah,

yeah, he's a good, good friend of mine.

So, he lives in Waco, so he pastors a church in Waco, so a little bit north of me in Dallas.

Interesting.

But phenomenal dude, phenomenal dude.

He's the biggest, tallest person that I know that does not play basketball.

Right on.

Well, I love the spiritual warfare topic.

It's fascinating.

So we'll.

Oh, yeah.

And he's got, you have to ask him about Victor Elsa.

I will.

I will.

Yeah.

But let's.

So I know you grew up in South Carolina, correct?

And

I mean, how, how, how old were you when you got into the porn industry?

Yeah.

If I could, if I could take what you said and just back up a little bit, I think it's so important.

So

I grew up in South Carolina.

Mom got pregnant with me when she was 15, had me at 16 in a super small town, like

one gas station, one grocery store.

And

my dad was in that town.

but never in my life.

And my mom worked at this like

flounder and fried chicken, you know, like restaurant.

And that it had like big glass windows.

And the windows, I would sit there and I would eat pretty much the same thing.

I'd pretty much eat the same thing after school every day.

This is when I was earlier, but

I would look out that window and it was called Rogers was called the convenience store.

And Rogers is my grandfather.

And also, so it was, and my father was Roger Dale Jr.

and he was Roger Dell Sr.

and I saw the convenience store and I saw the green Z71 like pull up every once in a while.

And

so I saw him.

It was my dad.

And I saw him.

So

he was in close enough proximity for me to see him often, but never know him.

And I was confronted with, so I was confronted with, you know,

over and over again, not being chosen.

And,

you know, just the way that attachment theory works, you know, neurologically, just how we develop an understanding of our emotions.

It's like, man, I had this conflict and this chaos that I didn't understand.

And the way that I made sense of it, well,

must be on me.

You know, there must be something wrong with me that he's not choosing me.

So

the best I can do is try to overcome.

How young were you when you started seeing that?

I mean

nine, ten.

I mean, when I started like comprehending it,

but it went all the way through.

Yeah, my whole life, you know, up until graduated high school.

No interaction at all, just looking at him through a window.

Yeah, I mean,

there was probably like a few times where there was some fumbled, awkward attempt for us to have a conversation.

He was never, there was never any malice involved, but

it was just strange.

And in retrospect,

at a place now,

I can have an understanding of, man,

what stays in the dark grows.

And

today is the easiest day to apologize for the thing that you did today.

Tomorrow it's going to be even harder.

And the next day and the next day and the next day, it's just going to compound over time, especially if there's shame involved.

So I don't think he was like, man, I don't want to be this kid's dad.

Maybe he didn't know what to say.

And then so much time passed by, he just became crippled by it.

But either way, it impacted me, you know?

And so then I go to college, study theater.

I was in a fraternity, all the stuff.

And I was sharing earlier with someone,

one of your team members, I was sharing how my fraternity brother was the one who taught me how to tie a tie for the first time because our fraternity we wore you know suit and tie on tuesdays in a pin and uh they were like man you can't be wearing a clip on you know you'll you know you'll get a smackdown for that and i was like man i don't know how to tie a tie and i remember my big brother like teaching me how to tie this like single windsor tie and uh it you know stuck with me forever you know

And just like moments like that,

it's this like duality of

I'll always be this like kid that his daddy didn't want, but also like, man, I need guys in my life to teach me something.

You know,

but but kind of like with that foundation, I believed at my, you know, core of my being is like, man, if I earn enough, if I become enough, if I do enough, maybe

I'll feel as if I'm enough.

And what I really wanted to hear was, son, I'm proud of you.

And because I never heard that, I thought I could earn it from the world.

Yeah.

And, you know, I was just kind of one of those guys where like everything I did, I found success in.

Like I was a good, I was a good ball player.

I was good at acting.

I had a lot of success in modeling.

So

kind of took that to Hollywood and I had an agent and I was having more success in modeling than acting, but everything was great.

I was living in Hollywood.

Had a great place to stay.

Had a a good friend group, had a great agent, had opportunities.

I just want to backtrack real quick.

I mean,

I think that affects a lot of people.

Oh, yeah.

And, you know, with my kids, I've made it a point,

I make it a point to make sure I tell my kids I'm proud of them every day,

multiple times a day.

Tell them why I'm proud of them.

Not just, hey, I'm proud of you.

I tell them why I'm proud of them.

And even if they don't understand, you know, it's,

it's, it's, it's in there.

Yeah.

I think, I think what, what you said is, is so important, that, that added layer, because it's one thing

to say, I'm proud of you, or you did a good job, um, or, or whatever that might be.

But when you make it intentional and explain why, um,

I feel like that would be even more meaningful and allow them to understand.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, kind of all that foundation led me to that moment of

being in Hollywood and, you know, still acting like an idiot, like living like an absolute fool.

But, you know, kind of with all that factored in, I saw porn for the first time when I was 13.

Never

saw my mom in a healthy relationship.

She was married for a very short period of time to someone who was very abusive, drug addict.

So, outside of that, I never saw her in a healthy dynamic.

My grandmother and grandfather, they didn't sleep in the same bed.

My grandfather was like fishing every day, you know, like

bad back or whatever.

They didn't share a bed.

I just had no like foundation of what is a healthy relationship, what is love, what is intimacy, what is, you know, never had a sex talk, saw porn when I was 13.

And I thought, man,

maybe if I

act out what I'll, what I'm seeing in this magazine, maybe I'll feel what I don't.

And, you know, that was kind of the start of me living a very promiscuous lifestyle in addition to that.

Did you ever, did you ever, did your dad ever come into the picture?

Still to this day?

Well, I mean, I have a, I have a really great story about forgiveness.

Because at the end of the day, it's like,

I'd say

I love that I get to share.

Thank you for asking that.

And I love that

I have the platform that I do today with the maturity that I do.

Because when I used to talk about him,

when I used to talk about him,

I think I did it in a way that I was still a little bit angry with him.

I forgave him.

And it was just, it was a big moment for me because, you know, when

like

forgiveness is easy or easier

when

you know that reconciliation is on the other side.

But

when reconciliation doesn't meet your expectations, are you still willing to forgive?

Meaning that,

why would I forgive my dad if he's not going to become my dad and become a grandfather to my kids?

Why would I forgive him?

Why would I forgive the person that's not going to change?

Why would I forgive the person that did wrong and is not going to, you know,

be sorry for it or pay a price for that?

Like, I understand that God is

a God of justice and justice will be served in the end.

But

we often find ourselves.

saying,

I want to play God in some way.

I want to control the outcome.

I want to have some kind of autonomy.

And I'll forgive if

not in the not in God's economy, not in God's kingdom.

We forgive because we've been forgiven.

And when you don't forgive, the thing that

the person who pays the price is you.

And for a long time, I was dealing with, man, like, you know, it was on the other side of me conquering all these other things, like all these addictions and traumas and lust and all this stuff.

But I was still wrestling with a little bit of anger issues.

And

it was because I would, like, in my heart of hearts, I would say, man,

the messed up stuff that people say about me

or say about me to my wife or say about my kids or whatever,

there was a little part of me that said,

Dad, if you would have been there, I wouldn't have done those things and this wouldn't have been happening.

So it's kind of your fault.

And I had to come to grips with that's not true.

Like my trauma impacted the way that I saw the world, yes.

But

upon my own volition, I made those decisions.

I have free will.

So I had to take ownership of my mistakes and I had to let go of that with him.

So I speak about him very differently.

I speak with him.

I speak about him with more empathy today

than I have in the past.

We don't have the relationship that I wish we did, but

where'd you learn forgiveness from?

Victor.

Me too.

Me too.

Really?

Yeah, no bullshit.

After hearing his story and he forgave his dad and what he did.

Yeah.

I was like, whoa.

And he called me one day and told me I needed

to forgive somebody for something they did that

is a friend of his.

I was like, are you fucking asking me to forgive this asshole?

And

he's like,

yes, I am.

And I was like,

I was like,

man, after what you've been through, it's really hard to say no to you, but

I'll figure out how to do it.

And you know what I realized?

For me, at least, forgiveness isn't for the other person.

Forgiveness is for yourself because you imprison yourself and that fucking resentment and that anger

and it just never leaves.

And every time the name comes up, it's like...

But if you can, and it's hard, it is hard, man, to just let it go.

You pull yourself out of that prison.

And,

but I learned that from Victor, too.

And I tell people that.

and I thought, you know, I don't, I don't know if it resonates or not, but you have to think of it, that's how, that's how I have to think of it.

If I don't forgive this person, it's going to eat me alive.

Yeah.

And

it will eat you alive.

Yeah.

And

when I was able to do it, like it,

man, it's like having a 10,000-pound rucksack lifted off your back.

Oh, yeah.

But

so,

so you forgave your dad?

Yeah.

Did you tell him that?

Yeah.

How did that go?

I mean, it was super emotional.

I mean,

I was so like, I had made up my mind what I was going to say before, you know, it got too far.

So as soon as I got him on the phone, I said it soon and

he apologized.

What did he say?

He he didn't, I don't remember much about it.

You know, it was more

It wasn't this like he's not an emotional guy.

You know, it was like,

it wasn't like I conjured up in my head.

I thought it was going to be this like green, this groundbreaking moment where, you know, I thought I was going to be like, you know, rocky and Apollo, like, you know, dapping up on the beach.

But, yeah, I mean, what did you say?

I said, well, I said, I, I'm, I'm sorry that I blamed you for every bad thing that I've ever done.

And I've been holding a lot of resentment for you not being there.

And I missed you a lot.

I needed you.

But

the frustration that I have in my life and the unforgiveness that I have in my heart, I want to let it go.

And he pretty much said me too, you know, said he was sorry for not being there.

That was kind of it.

And I think, you know,

my prayer is that

my life and the way that I pursue him is healing for him in some way, because I can't imagine

what goes on in his head, in his heart in turn.

That's what I was just going to say, too.

Another thing that kind of, it helps me is knowing, like,

I mean, you have to be able to, like, I guess you don't have to, but to put yourself in their shoes and to have to carry the guilt of never being around

had a massive

part in how things turned out or how they didn't turn out yeah and

i mean it

they're gonna carry that shit for the rest of their life they think about this stuff unless they're a total narcissist right you know which most people aren't i mean that's every day of their life that's haunting them.

Yeah.

You know, and

that impacts everyone they touch.

Yep.

Yep.

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Man.

All right.

So back to back to Hollywood.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So kind of all that leading up to me being in Hollywood.

And

I was at this

bar saddle ranch.

So like mechanical bulls and all this stuff.

And

these three girls walk up to me.

And they were headhunters for the porn industry.

And they worked with a porn agent.

And they asked me straight up, like, hey would you be interested in being in a porn and i was like

not really you know but maybe

um i didn't have a i think it's like when you don't have a good reason to say no sometimes you say yes to something you should say no to you know

um but they you know like Some people asked me, like, is there a correlation between sex trafficking and

the porn industry?

And think about trafficking you know generally involves force fraud and coercion and you know people ask me well you know is that does some of that exist in the porn industry it doesn't exist it is completely dependent on it

it's manipulation is you know

at the cornerstone of the porn industry and that the girls were trained to use language where they're in a place where you know a lot of people are trying to make it and they're using, you know,

meet with our agent and you'll do an interview and you'll, you know, he'll help you with your career and all that stuff.

You know, you'll, and it's, it's almost like,

you know, when we say things or when we call things different than what they are, it creates this unrealistic barrier.

And that, you know, we say,

we don't want to say porn.

We say adult film industry.

yet porn is a word that is from the the greek new testament so pornea um and it's you know but we we want to say adult film industry but when we say that trying not to be abrasive what are we saying we're we're insinuating that that's adult behavior that's how adults act you know um

So it's just so interesting that they would use specific language of saying agent, this and that.

And then they essentially they're like, hey, if you want to do this,

you'll meet with our agent.

And I was like, you know, I've been watching porn for a long time.

I've been acting like an idiot forever.

If I get paid for what I'm already doing, like maybe, you know, that would be cool.

How old are you at this point?

22.

You're only 22?

Yeah.

And

just being totally honest, if I was 22 and got approached with that, I probably would have, yes.

Yeah.

You're going to pay me to bang hot women.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Let's do it.

That's pretty much what I heard.

Yeah.

And I and I go and I meet with this guy.

And

it's three attractive women.

Yes, three smoking hot girls.

Yeah.

And

yeah, so I'm like, sure, I'll meet with the guy.

You know, like,

and I thought, so I had like in my head, I'm like, if it's weird,

I'll just, you know,

if I go to the place and it's like,

you know, at a hostel or at like a you know yeah yeah some sketchy like motel and he's like a guy like picking lint out of his belly button you know I'm just gonna get out of there but it was at you know a

like a business complex and in Studio City adjacent to Universal Studios walk in you know they brought me in through like the like underground like parking garages and they're just like you know the Bentleys and beamers everywhere and I could go up and walk through this hallway and he's got, you know, almost like if you were a sport agent, how you would have all, you know, any players you represent.

So there were, you know, anyone that was on the cover of Penthouse, Playboy, Hustler, whatever.

And I'm walking through and sit there, reception.

It's like, you know, his name is Derek.

And like, Derek will be right with you.

And I'm waiting.

And there's like porn on the, you know, the coffee table in the, you know, waiting area.

He calls me into his office and sits me down.

He's like, so tell me, how did you grow up?

What are you doing in LA?

And what do you hope to accomplish?

How did you grow up?

I know.

But in retrospect, I didn't think about it.

Looking for broken homes.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

Did you grow up not having something that I can use to manipulate you to do what I want so I can extract value from you?

100% yes.

That's what he was saying, but I was too naive to hear it.

How'd you grow up?

Just me and my mom.

Perfect.

You know, should have been a red flag.

It was a green flag for him.

What do you, you know, what do you, you know, what are you doing in L.A.?

Modeling, acting, you know, doing what most people are out here doing, trying to make it, trying to live out my dream, whatever.

What year is this?

This is 2006.

2006.

And

then he was like, well, what do you hope to accomplish?

And I was like,

yes, be famous.

And what's sad about that is, you know, famous is,

you know, objective.

It's fictitious.

Because, you know, if you think,

you know, if enough people know, you know, how many people need to know who I am to equate to being famous?

Like, how many followers do you need to have?

You know, like, what's the mark?

And if there's no mark, there's no measure.

If there's no measure, there's no reality.

You know, and if you, if you get to the place that you thought if you would get to, that you would feel some sort of way, and you don't, you just increase the measure.

You know, being rich is the same way.

It's like, if I had this, I would feel that, you know, over and over again.

I mean, we know the deal.

It doesn't work.

But I thought, man, if I become somebody, I will feel like I'm somebody.

And again, what I was trying to do is I was trying to, you know, stack the scale in my favor enough where

this the kid that didn't have the dad,

would feel like I was wanted, seen, heard, known.

And he kind of spoke into all that.

He's like, man, he's like, you've got acting experience.

The porn industry is shifting.

We're parroting all these movies.

They're doing big films.

Like, you can be the lead in all these.

You can make a ton of money.

Like, you can do like by doing the films and you can do, you know, marketing with this.

I've got deals with clubs in Vegas.

They'll bring you out.

You'll sit in the VIP and they'll they'll pay you $10,000 just to be there, you know, like all this stuff.

And, you know, like my career was going okay,

but I was having more success modeling than I was acting.

I really wanted to act.

That was my passion.

But I

but there was a part of me, again, I couldn't shake that like, man,

maybe I'm just not good enough to make it.

You know, at 22,

you know, your modeling career is not not peaked out, but, you know, most people have their best years modeling like 16 to 21.

That's not definitively true across the board, but, you know, a lot of people do.

Acting has this big, you know, a lot longer, you know, range.

And I just thought, man, I just don't have the capability of being successful because...

What was that based on?

Well, me

comparing myself on my peers.

And a lot of people that were in the same network as me or even had the same agent as me, they were doing, you know, they had booked their first lead role or they've done this and they've done that.

And I hadn't quite done as much as they've done.

So I must not be good enough.

And I thought, man, maybe this is just a, you know.

a counterfeit version of the dream that I have and I should hop on this boat before it leaves because maybe this is as good as it's going to get for me.

Did he tell you you that as well during the meeting?

Did he destroy your dreams of what you wanted to do to get what you wanted?

I do that myself.

You did that to yourself.

He threw all this money on and everything on you, right?

Yeah.

Right at the get-go.

Yeah.

And

I said, okay, well, you know, where do we start?

And it's so interesting because.

You were already in before you were in.

Yeah.

Well, at least I was like, well,

I'll do one.

You know, I'll do one.

We'll see.

you know?

And

he's like, okay, well, you got to go get a full STD test and AIDS test.

And when that panel comes back, it generally takes 24 hours.

When that panel comes back,

you know, I'll set up a shoot for you.

And I was like, you know, great.

Sounds good.

I was thinking like, all right, I'm going to get paid to like, you know.

take a camcorder and go like hook up with this hot girl and and then i'm going to get a check

i do the test i go there and it's full-blown like

like any other like you know the biggest project i've done yeah i i walk in as a receptionist and it's so interesting i'd love to to dig into this um come back to it so they give me paperwork to sign this is how you get paid sign here sign here sign here

So so many people.

They own the IP.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

All of it.

Yeah.

All of it.

100%.

So, so many people ask, you know, they just like, especially when they see that I'm a Christian and specifically see that I do ministry vocationally.

They're like, well,

did you give the money back?

And what are you doing

with the residuals?

What are you doing with the royalties?

Royalties and residuals don't exist in porn.

You're a day-rate employee and you give away everything.

But not only do you sign away everything, what you're signing, the last thing you sign is

saying that they reserve the right to

disperse and to sell to as many third parties for

a forever

time limit.

So what happens is you do a porn and all of a sudden my pictures are on dating sites.

My pictures are on sex toys.

My pictures are on billboards.

Am I compensated for any of that?

No.

You know?

But anyway, I sign all that paperwork and I walk in and there's girls in a makeup chair and

a big, you know, studio.

There's catering.

There's all this stuff.

And then there's this like day bed and there's this like sea of lights around this girl.

And

the PA that's with me is like, that's the girl you're going to be working with.

She's taking, you know, some photos.

She's taking some photos and

we'll need you about 30, 40 minutes.

We understand this is your first time.

So here's a Viagra.

Put it in my hand.

He's like, if you've never taken it before, I'd buy it in half.

So I was like, oh my gosh, like, what, you know, what have I gotten myself into?

And I'm like in the bathroom, like, you know, still, you know, pretty much a kid, you know.

And I'm like talking to myself in the mirror, like, you know, what are you going to do?

And,

and I felt like

I'd gone too far to turn back.

But again,

everything's so intentional.

You knew it wasn't the right thing, right?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I'm just waiting on my mom to jump out and like judo chop me in the throat.

But

so intentional.

I got picked up in a town car.

I was not told the address that I was going to.

So what did I have to do if I wanted to leave?

I'd have to call the agent and say, hey, you know, like a kid that went to a sleepover that changed their mind.

Like, hey, you know,

I'm scared.

I want to come home.

So I felt like I couldn't make that call.

And I think so many of us will do something and we believe the lie that's from Satan.

We'll believe a lie that's from Satan that

you've gone too far to turn back.

So your only choice is to keep going.

And that's kind of

what I did.

So I popped the whole thing, drank a bottle of water,

and walked out there and waited a few minutes.

And,

you know, when you take Vager, you start to

feel blotchy, like in your chest.

And

I was like, I was like, am I going to pass out?

Like, what's going on?

And

they kind of waved me over and I never had any kind of interaction with the girl.

Like, I never

talked to her.

Like, I didn't even know like what her stage name was, her real name was.

I wasn't sure.

Because all you do is you, so you sign that.

So they have photocopies of her ID and then a printout of her STD and AIDS test and you have to see that the test is current so it has to be 27 days or newer and

her ID has to be valid and not expired.

So I had to look at that, match the names, and I had to sign that I saw it.

And that was the only interaction I had with her.

Walk over to the, you know, to the scene and, you know, pretty much the, you know, this is, this is still, this is, you know, somewhat back in the day.

So like bigger cameras.

So the director has this camera and the

videographer has this big camera.

And he's kind of like over my shoulder.

And the girl is not looking at me, looking at the camera.

So it's like, you know, the fantasy that you you become to believe when you watch porn is there's this like intense connection between the girl and the guy,

it's 100% disconnection.

No kidding, well, because the director is telling you what to do and telling you how to do it, and you're not having sex for pleasure, you're having sex for show, so it literally has to show.

So, you're strategically doing it in a way that is visible,

so it's very uncomfortable,

and

it's performance art at best.

It's certainly not sex, regarding what we would know it to be.

So that happens and I was like, man, I felt pretty disgusting afterwards.

How long does it take?

I mean,

you know, it just depends on what's going on, what it is.

How many people were in the room?

Probably 20.

20 people?

Yeah.

It was wild.

I mean, like, again, like, there was a boom mic over my head, someone literally, like, holding a sea light like underneath my junk.

Um,

holy shit.

You know, camera A, camera B, someone shooting BTS.

You know,

most of the girls, they either have, you know, someone that's there with them,

they would call them a boyfriend more often than not a pimp

that's that's there watching.

You know, sometimes.

How many women had you slept with before this, approximately?

I mean, probably hundreds.

Hundreds of 22?

Maybe not 100, but probably 100.

Man.

And, but I did that, and I was like, I felt, man, that was, and I just, I can't, I'll just always remember it.

So on my way home, I'm in this town car going home, and it's like.

What about afterwards?

Hold on.

What about afterwards?

Is there any interaction with the other, with the woman, with the talent?

No, like as soon as you finish, like you move because like as soon as you orgasm like they want to take pictures of that and then you get you just like you you're like you're done

shuffled out oh yeah and then they want to take photos and and stuff

yeah so you're you're out of there but i it was like it was so interesting so there was like showers on set um but i remember there there was like there was not body wash in the shower there was just like dial hand soap

And I was just like trying to wash myself with that and then I'm in the town car and I'm on my way home and it's like I can still feel the like

Lube in the hair of my legs.

I just felt gross.

And then I got home and I like took this like

shower.

Have you seen Redeeming Love?

No.

It's just it's a it's a

faith-based film, but essentially there's a girl that works in a brothel.

She meets a guy that has a faith.

They connect and he's kind of like trying to get her.

Has a what?

A faith in it?

A faith, yeah.

Um,

and you know, he's trying to lead her to the Lord and also like wanting to be with her, but like for us to be together, like, I want you to follow the Lord.

And there's this point where

she's,

and I mean, I can just relate to this so much where like there's something inside her that was craving the only thing that she knew, which was chaos.

Because like, you know, he's in a in a cottage, on a farm, you know, they're eating good food,

but that's it.

They're on a farm.

It's just him and her.

This is like, you know, this is pre,

you know, television and internet.

You know, it's just them.

It was like she was going crazy, not experiencing chaos.

And she ended up going back to the brothel and she, you know, turned a trick

and

it, it didn't feel the same, and she felt so dirty and so disgusting.

She couldn't believe that she went back to the thing that she wanted to be rescued from.

And there's this scene where she's in this like river, and she's got a rock, and she's scrubbing her body, but what she's trying to scrub off is not on a surface level.

And man, I've took many of those showers.

Damn.

And, but I was like, never going to do it again.

It hits you right off the bat.

Oh, I was, it was great.

Before it even happened, it hit it.

And I got paid like 500 bucks.

And I was like, man, I got paid 500 bucks to do that.

And like,

I mean, it was not sexy.

The girl was not super attractive.

There was no positive experience.

Like, I mean, I could make $500 like bartending at a bar in Hollywood.

I mean, there's like 500 bucks for that.

I'm like,

what a mistake that was.

You know, I'm out.

But, you know, 2006, different world.

So

I didn't realize that that scene was for the most popular website, the most popular porn website in America at that time.

And they, they, they, they shoot like three to five scenes a day and they post every day.

So the turnaround was pretty quick.

So it was up the next week.

what was the website uh it was like naughty america or something like that

and um it was like so all of a sudden like a few of my fraternity brothers and then a few other people was like dude i saw you on this website i saw you on this website i saw you on this website and then you know you know being from a small town the thing about a small town it only takes one person to know one thing about your life for everyone to know everything about your life and someone told my uncle at work and then my uncle told my mom and then i get a phone call from my mom and you know growing up in the south like how much of your name is used is how much trouble you're in and I heard you know when I answered the phone like Joshua Luke Broom

did you do a porn you know did you did you do a porno film and I was like

I was like I did mom

and like in that moment like

Satan just put his foot on my throat because I already believed there was something wrong with me

but I can remember it so clearly.

Because when I heard the pain in her voice, when she said, Why did you do that?

Satan said to me,

See,

you're exactly who you thought you were.

You're not a kid that does bad things.

You are bad.

and then I begin to shrink

and I get to believe man

I hurt the only person that never hurt me

maybe I'm not even good enough to be her son

and then a few days go by and then my manager calls me

normally when they want me to come by

The agency to have an in-person meeting is a good thing.

It's like, hey, here's an offer on the table and let's assess it.

Do you want to accept it?

No,

your name's attached to a pornography website.

That's a big problem for us.

I think a lot of you, but we're going to have to end our professional relationship.

You're fired.

So now I'm like,

now what?

I blew up my whole life.

Damn.

On the very first one.

So then, like, well, what do I do?

And then I begin to believe the lie that the only thing that I can do as a 22-year-old is continuing to do the very thing that created so much turmoil in my life because that was the only viable option.

And

in perfect timing, agent calls me, porn agent calls me.

Hey, man.

That scene went viral.

I'd love to offer you a contract.

Hold on.

What did your mom say after you told her yes?

She was hurt, disappointed.

Told me that I probably needed to move back home.

Damn.

And if I'm honest, I didn't know what to say.

I didn't say anything because I didn't know what to say.

You know?

I didn't say I was sorry.

I just kind of,

yeah, you know, I did it.

I didn't know what to do.

So I didn't say anything.

How's your relationship with your mom today?

Oh, so good.

It is?

Yeah.

Good.

I'm happy to hear that.

Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, that

the porn agent calls me and like, hey, you know, I want to sign you to a contract.

And so I doubled down.

I was like, well, you know,

I'd found some way to, for the most part, everything that I've done in life, I'm relatively successful at.

And I thought, well, I have good work ethic.

I have good communication and people skills.

So I feel like I can really figure out this industry.

So I feel like

I can become the guy.

And I did, you know, over seven years.

I

did over a thousand films.

won around 20 different awards, directed for some big companies, wrote some movies, starred in, you know, some of the biggest, you know, grossing movies that they've, you know, ever put out, like in the porn industry.

And

they did crazy stuff.

Like, we, uh, we did, um, like,

we did a Star Wars movie, and I played Han Solo.

And, like, it was thinking, you like, most people just think, oh, they had sex.

Like, well,

it was shot over several months.

Like, they

built a replica, like, Millennial Falcon.

Like, we had, like, actual, like, replicas of like guns and stuff and costumes and grew my hair out and stuff.

Um,

but

you know, and then as I'm doing that, it's like a little part of me was like, oh, this is this is art in a way, but it's like still, you know, still porn.

But doubled down and had a lot of success and got nominated for Performer of the Year four times.

And I didn't win it until 2012.

Won it in 2012.

And I thought, man, if I ever won that award,

that would solidify for me,

you know, my worth.

And if I just won that award, like,

I had this belief that just something would happen.

Like, something supernatural would just happen in me.

Like the, the feeling of, you know, worthlessness or inadequacy or whatever I wrestle with on the pillow at night.

It'll just go away if I won that award.

Then I won it

and nothing happened.

And when nothing happened, everything got worse.

Let's take a quick break.

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All right, Josh.

Well, we're back from the break.

Kind of,

we hit your first film and then we breezed through everything else pretty much.

But I think we left off with thousand film, thousand plus films.

You won the uh

well you won the award

male Performer of the Year.

And so,

I mean, it sounds like you got,

I mean, just a household name in the industry.

Yeah.

And so, you know,

I really want to get a snapshot of what that lifestyle is like.

And

so a thousand plus films in how many years?

Six and a half.

Six and a half years.

So how much

are you on camera

performing?

Yeah, I mean, I was just every day.

Well, because like the industry, so the award show is in January, and everyone's trying to get stuff turned in for the year to submit for that.

So to make it, because if something wins an award, then you know, it has notoriety, you can push it, etc.

So kind of the industry

doesn't shut down, but slows down significantly in

December and January.

So

Like, so really like 10-month increments,

I was doing

20 scenes a month minimum.

And then during the summer, sometimes, you know, I was shooting two, three times a day.

I do, I think I've done like 40-something in a month

was the most I did.

But

well, I mean, what constitutes an award?

Well, I mean, you know,

is it view counts?

What is it?

So, I mean, there's

used to be on Showtime.

You know, it was

voted by fans and the studios.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then, you know, you had mentioned

on the first shoot, there was no interaction between you.

and the woman, at least verbally.

And so

as you grew in that industry, I mean, there had to be more human interaction other than sexual intercourse,

right?

Yeah.

And so who, who are your,

like, what's the lifestyle?

Who are your friends?

What do you do?

I mean,

what is it like?

Yeah, I mean, for the most part, like

you were friends with, and if you dated, you dated from inside the pool of the people who are in that industry.

Like your friend group wasn't exclusive to people who were just in that industry, but

dating, it would be really hard to

maybe not in today's age, but

it was hard to kind of say,

what do you, you know, you're meeting someone, you know, at the gym or wherever you might meet someone and you get to talking about what you do for a living.

It's like, well,

I'm a porn star.

That's probably not

going to be someone you see yourself compatible with.

Maybe for a flame, but not a relationship.

So people would date

within the industry.

And that

I think was a large part of my mental and emotional demise in that

I was dating someone for a while

in the industry for almost two years

and she was already popular, became even more popular.

Who was it?

Like

Asa Akira is her,

you know, her name.

So she was, she's like the face of Pornhub now.

She's a spokesperson for Pornhub.

She's, you know, gone viral for multiple things, like

crazy things she said.

But,

um, but she was, you know,

she was my person at that time.

And, but the reason.

Do you guys still interact?

No.

No.

I mean, I haven't, I haven't spoken to her,

you know, since

like well over 10 years.

But

the thing was, you know, if if all my friends are in that industry and my, you know, girlfriend is in that industry,

you live in this suppression of reality in that we would say that we were in a monogamous relationship while having sex with other people, just calling the work in which we did, you know, or calling, you know, us having sex with other people at work, we would just call that.

work.

It wasn't sex.

It was just work.

So that didn't count.

And we suppressed that as reality.

But what we claimed as reality is that we were in a monogamous relationship because off-camera and on-camera were two different realities.

But then you're faced with, I'm sitting at, you know, Mastro's and Beverly Hills with a friend of mine.

And he's there with his

girlfriend.

And my friend had had sex with my girlfriend on Monday.

and I had sex with his girlfriend that day.

And we're pretending as if

that's not real, and it's not problematic to the atmosphere.

And when you suppress reality, chaos is a promise.

Is it an outward appearance, or is it always in your head?

I don't remember.

Do you actually trick your mind into...

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I was in a place where, I mean, I could have sex, you know, and I would do them.

It's like I would have sex in a, in a theater in front of hundreds of thousands of people, and especially in Europe, and

not think twice about it.

Wait, what?

Yeah, they would have live sex shows used to be a thing.

Like now, you know how people are taking.

I think thousands of people?

Yeah.

Or, you know, how now it's become popular to take your podcast on the road to have that live element.

Well, instead of watching a porn,

you know, on a screen, you would watch it happen live.

That was a thing for a while.

But

I could do that at drop of the hat, like no, no problem at all.

Like, you know, not face me.

But you look me in the eye and shake my hand.

Tears would stream down my face because that was real.

It was terrifying.

Jeez.

Like, that's how much I had suppressed reality.

When's the first time you did it live?

in front of a live audience?

I think it was in

probably two years in.

But

it was either in Vegas or

was one of the first times.

And then stuff like that happens a lot, like in Europe or Barcelona.

Do you remember the first time?

I don't.

No.

Everything just became so like there was no interaction that was more special than the others.

The only thing that like, like, um, I have like real memories around is like the roles I played where there was like significant,

you know, there was a script to learn, a character to play, um, things that were outside of,

you know, the sex aspect because in a porn, you know, because like

Star Wars, we filmed, you know, over three or four months.

It's five sex scenes, you know,

which takes, you know, a few hours to film.

So

like there was a lot of the movie that wasn't sex.

So I just like that, like that whole thing, that whole experience was very memorable to me.

But yeah, I mean, the sex, it just.

The sex and the people,

it just.

So everybody had convinced themselves that, you know, that was in a monogamous relationship inside that industry.

Everybody had convinced themselves mentally that

this is on screen, doesn't matter.

Or, or off-screen, this is the same thing.

Or even.

Yeah, or either that or the polar opposite of like they're all in and they're swingers 24-7 and like sex is just, you know, sex and high-fiving someone.

It's all the same.

Let's just have a party, have fun, you know.

Because some people, like, some people could, like, work as a director and someone be having sex with their, you know, significant other, and they would just film it, and it would just be whatever.

Um,

or,

you know,

and I just, for me, like, again, uh,

single parent, you know, like my mom was young.

She's a beautiful woman.

Like, I remember, like

throwing cans of like corn like at a guy, like

trying to talk to my mom, like get away from my mom.

I'm going to protect my mom.

So like jealous kid turned into jealous boyfriend,

which turned into even though I was in that industry, I was, I like, that was my girl.

I didn't want anyone to touch her, which, which is how I felt, but I had to suppress that feeling.

because of what I said.

And I think that would, you know, bring up an interesting point where people say, you know, I love what I do.

Well, if you love what you do, let's let's you know, go back to that moment where I said yes to being in the porn industry.

Uh, well, I'm gonna make I'm gonna make you famous.

Okay, Derek, you're gonna make me famous.

Um, what, what's what's the first thing I do?

What's next?

You know, uh, okay, well, we got to pick you

a name to go by.

Sorry, I'm gonna pick it up, pick you a name to go by.

You go by a pseudonym.

Because if I can get you to detach yourself from who you are, you will do things that are outside of and different

than things that you would ever do.

Like you think about social media.

You know,

the antagonist on the other side that's, you know, talking trash to everyone online.

What are two things that are always common of that person?

They have an obscure username and they have, you know, a meme or a random photo as their photo because if I can detach who I am from what I do, then I'm not held accountable for what I do.

So it's not me doing the things.

In the porn industry, very same thing.

I'm going to get you to go by a pseudonym because I can get you to detach yourself from your humanity.

That's interesting.

So that was the first thing I did.

So kind of, you know, with that, you know, that thought like in our mind,

you know, who I am,

it began to matter less and less.

So

is there drugs and alcohol?

Is there a lot of that involved?

I mean,

it's interesting.

It's it's really interesting

because like drugs and alcohol

on set,

like there was some of that um before me like there was you know um there there was always like

times where if it was like if it was like a live shoot kind of like everything's kind of out the window there's no no rules you know um but for the most part what do you mean a live shoot like what i was live share like a live like a live show yeah where it's like we're filming something happening live and it's streaming or someone's watching so we're we're not creating uh you know a a curated and you know crafted and edited product um like if if we're if we're creating that then they want a more controlled environment um so if you showed up to set drunk or high you would get sent home because more often than not like in la like

you would have to get a permit to film porn and a lot of times uh you know they would come by and check for your permit and when they would check for the permit they're you know trying to get a peek um

but

i i didn't see a lot of like that onset

but is it part of the industry 100 but it's more so to deal with the consequence of what you did in contrast of being able to do what you did

you know that people aren't getting drunk and high on set to do the scene they're getting drunk and high because they did the scene interesting and And then once addiction sets in, they, you know, those things start to bleed into each other.

I mean, there were certainly, like, there were certainly like times where people came to sit drunk high,

you know,

all the things.

I mean, I've seen it all.

I mean, part of the reason that I'm so passionate about talking about it is

as of today, over 40 people have committed suicide or died of overdose.

Every roommate I've ever had, except one, dead.

And these are people, not just like total in the industry, like these are people I knew personally, like friends of mine.

You know, people we had meals with, like traveled places together, like people I knew.

And when they would die,

the porn industry would make a compilation film.

of you know their best of

why to monetize on the thing in which

caused their demise geez

wow

was there

what should I be asking you

yeah I mean um about the industry

I mean just the just paint a picture of how like fictitious it is I mean like the girls are using numbing cream um the girl the all the guys are using erectile dysfunction medication.

You know, there were some directors that would require you to use Caberjack.

So Caberjack is for paraplegic

people where you would inject something into the cavern of your penis and

you would have an erection for three or four hours.

It doesn't matter if you're reading the newspaper or,

you know, whatever.

And then the danger is if you use too much, then you've you've got to go to the hospital get lanced um because it's not going to subside you know

um

or uh you use it for long enough then you become dependent on it

i mean was sex even enjoyable no you know like real like

real sex with your with your

whoever you're in a monogamous relationship with yeah i mean is that how do i mean well i mean for the mom like for the most part like even if you did that you would like because i worked so much, I would like not finish because I was like, you know,

you'd want to save your orgasm, you know, because the quantity

was important.

Because if that wasn't there and they couldn't capture what they needed, then, you know, they would be upset about it.

Holy shit.

Yeah.

So when you had sex, it was like.

Yeah.

Not that often.

Not unless you had a big break and you went on a vacation or something like that.

Wow.

It was like, you know, it was almost like

if you worked at Krispy Kreme and you love donuts, like the last thing that you would want to do is eat donuts.

But yeah.

And I think just like the

like

when

so the agent that I had, when

the agent that I had, when girls would come into the industry, they'd ask them their no list, right?

So things you don't want to do, you know, anal, stuff like that.

Like, what, what do you not want to do?

So that was on your no list.

And then, you know, if a director would ask, well, you know, does this girl do this?

No, it's on their no list.

But the way that worked was

like in the industry, your no doesn't really mean no it means how much number

yeah

so the way that the the poor agents would work is there would be things that girls wouldn't do and um

after after a period of time they're if their popularity would start to subside you know they're not getting as many requests they would go to a few studios and say hey

How much would you pay for such and such to do anal?

Like, you know, 15K, 20K, 30K, 30k okay high spider

then he would go back to the girl it's like hey out of nowhere this studio just said that they would give you thirty thousand dollars if you would be willing to do anal and I know you said you didn't want to do it but you know you're not getting as many your requests as you had been in the past and you know you do that you know they'll make a big deal of it you'll become relevant again and then your career is just going to start to

you know skyrocket.

She does it, but what happens?

What she never wanted to do and she did one time becomes something that she does all the time.

Because once she does it, it loses

whatever.

And they would just do that with girls over and over and over again.

At the same time, they would convince them to do escorting.

And it's like, you know, they would spend weekends or go on trips with guys.

And it's like, well, you know, there's a check and there's a test.

As long as there's a check and a test, it's all the same is the way they would present it to them.

We're making the client get, you know, the same STD and AIDS panel.

So they're clean and you're getting paid.

So they just convinced them that, you know, so that they were, you know, they were trafficking them.

Because

it was, it wasn't on like a public site.

It was, you know, it wasn't quite on the dark web, but it wasn't far from it.

Or not, you know, this, the, that guy, Derek, like he ended up, you know, serving time for sex trafficking because he was, he was extorting girls.

He would bring girls in from different countries, get them fake IDs, have them paid in cash, living in his own house,

charging them rent to pay in their house, taking some of their money that they were getting paid as their agent and, you know, their landlord,

and making

the people who paid them pay them in cash.

So he would take the money and he decided how much they got

shit i'm gonna go to some i'm gonna go somewhere pretty dark um

um

so

i i uh

so with with guys you know um

they would ask do you want to do like vip parties do you want to like bartend or whatever like you would bartend shirtless and you'd make, you know, 10, 20,000 bucks.

And

I would do stuff like that sometimes.

And it was almost like, you know, you, it's kind of like what we're talking about.

Like, how do you, how do you ever get to, you know, this place?

Like, how do you go from here to here?

Like, how do you go from, you know, me personally, the first magazine that I ever saw that like created a sexual thought in my head, it was

like, it was, I think it was like Mac,

like GQ, like, um, or the

I don't know, like swimsuit version of like Maxim or something like that, but it was just like a see-through bathing suit.

Like, how did I go from there to like watching hardcore porn, you know?

So, doing porn, getting paid for sex,

then doing these

bartending stuff.

And then

there was

a

high profile company

in the fashion industry that would have these parties and they would bring out guys and girls to do these parties.

And you know, girls will walk around naked, guys will work walk around, you know, in boxers, whatever, serve everyone drinks.

And

I went there,

it was in Paris.

And

I mean, long story short,

I went there and

got drugged and raped

by

the owner of a very well-known fashion,

what used to be the CEO of a very well-known fashion organization.

And

when that happened to me, I thought,

it's my fault.

This is what I signed up for.

You know, this is who I am.

And

then I started like trying to sabotage.

I was like towards the end of my career.

So I was like,

started trying to sabotage myself.

And

started making a pretty clear plan to take my life.

And he kind of looked up, like, I had this pretty strong pain medication, you know, like how many pills would do the trick.

Okay, well, take that that number, maybe add two more.

And I'd put them on the counter and I'd separate them.

It's like I took, you know, old-school vitamins.

I used to take like the like Vita pack, like an animal pack or whatever.

I'd take like 40 vitamins at once.

So I'm like, I knew like I could take a lot of pills at once.

So I separated them so I could make sure I would get them down, swallow them, I wouldn't chicken out.

And I set them up like that

time after time after time.

I just could never do it.

And then

this one day, I was filming in Atlanta and

it was like, it was just like it was a disgusting shoot.

Like

people were like urinating on each other,

like

spitting on my face, in my mouth, stuff like that.

And I'm just like,

what have I become?

I was like, I want to die.

Can't undo what I've done.

Got

more money than I thought I would ever see.

You know, growing up.

Food stamps, trailer, government housing.

Like

got a nice, you know, Breitling collection and

nice home.

Do all the stuff.

But I'm miserable.

And this is what I've made of my life.

There's no hope.

There's no hope.

There's no way out.

But I needed someone to agree with me.

So I got paid from that scene.

And the directors on the memo of the checks, they would always write something grotesque.

Like if the title of the movie wasn't sexually explicit enough, they would write something

being antagonistic, knowing that you're going to have to give that check to someone.

And I normally wouldn't do that.

I would just

ATM, Dropbox, you know, anything other than handed to a person.

But on this day, that was going to be my formula.

I put the water.

on the counter.

I lined up the pills.

The Wachovia that I banked at was across the street from the place that I lived.

And I walked over there, had the check, waited a line, handed the check to the teller,

and I waited.

What did it say on the check?

It's like some gang bang or like

something like that.

And

I wanted the person to,

you know,

some look of disgust.

Best case scenario, say, like, you know, how sick are you or something?

She said nothing, you know, deposited the check, handed me the receipt.

You know, I got tears streaming down my face, pale, like, you know, shaking.

And I defeated because I didn't get what I wanted.

I didn't know what to do.

And then

I look up and she had walked around

the counter and she put her hand on my shoulder and she said, Joshua, are you okay?

Joshua, can I get you some help?

And Sean, that was the first time I had heard my real name

in 18 months.

Wow.

And it just like

woke me up.

And I beelined it to my place.

And I called my mom.

And I hadn't, you know, my mom had been calling and texting me.

Didn't respond.

I thought,

you know, she's just reaching out to me because she feels like she has to, but I've lost the right of being her son.

I've disqualified myself.

I think it was by pride.

shame.

But I called her.

And when she answered the phone, she lit me up.

She, you know, good southern mama, she cussed me out, you know, for she was worried about me.

But then she said everything that I didn't think she would.

She said,

I will always love you.

And you will always be my son.

And you're so much better than the way you're living.

Please come home.

So right then and there,

I called everybody I needed to call.

I quit, quit i quit i quit and i subleased my place pretty quickly and left la

and but like when i when i left

i didn't think i could change and i didn't have any kind of it wasn't any kind of spiritual awakening um but i do think that was the holy spirit in that bank

um

but very quickly i thought okay you know what what do i have what do i have that i can use okay Okay, well, you know, I've been doing CrossFit for a while.

I got a level one certification.

Maybe I can coach CrossFit.

I got an exercise science background a little bit, strength conditioning, you know, understand that.

Maybe I can get into that.

And then I did, you know, the formula that I knew that worked.

Find a good mentor,

get, you know, double down, work really hard, get some credentials, you know,

build a kingdom for myself.

And, you know, I was working with this guy, Jason Davidson.

He was the strength conditioning coach for the Carolina Hurricanes.

He was leading the Thor program at Fort Bragg, plugged me into some right circles, bows for me.

And all of a sudden, you know, I had, you know, what I like to say is I put enough good dirt on my bad dirt so I didn't look dirty.

Because I couldn't change.

I didn't believe I could.

But what I thought I could do is I could manage people's,

perception of me.

And if I did enough good, it would outweigh the bad that was impossible for me to run from.

And I spent about two years doing that.

I mean, when you were before you left the industry, I mean,

was it a build-up of misery or was it literally that one

scene or that one shoot?

Or was that one shoot the last straw?

That one shoot, that last shoot was the last straw, but it was, you know, the relationship.

So that relationship got more toxic.

It went from us being at dinner where we had sex with the other person across the, you know, table

to

her wanting to talk about

stuff that was happening on set, like, you know, in our home.

And

I was,

it was interesting because I was like, man, I need to man up.

This shouldn't bother me.

But it does.

And I think, you know, we look at men in today's society, it's like,

you know, we're struggling with a mental health crisis because we pretend like we're okay when we're not.

And the inevitable fact of pretending like you're okay when you're not, the thing that's not okay is not going to get better.

It's going to get worse.

So

I allowed that to be part of

our relationship or her to tell me stuff that she was doing with other people and pretending like that was arousing to me.

And I think,

again, just like further and further compromising

myself as an individual

and suppressing reality led to

combustion, you know, internally.

Yeah, you're trying to convince yourself to change what you know is right and wrong.

Yeah, I mean,

again, like the jealous kid, you know, in the grocery store is still the jealous kid that I don't want anyone to look at my girlfriend.

Now I'm saying that I'm okay with people having sex with her.

But yeah.

So I mean that that progression

and just the reality of like me having sex with as many people as I did and it just becoming

the most arbitrary thing in the world is incredibly dangerous for your mental and emotional health.

For me to walk into,

you know, a lie, you know, this studio and a girl to be sitting there and for me not to talk to her or anything and I just walk up to her and start having sex with her.

And

then there's a bunch of cameras around and I'm doing it for these cameras and then I orgasm and then leave.

And that's my job.

That's what I do for my career.

That's what I do, you know,

four or five days a week.

And I do that for, you know,

short of a decade.

Like, that's,

I mean, that's going to damage you significantly.

Was there any talk within the industry on your way out about, or just anytime at all in there?

That other people were struggling with.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, there was, there was, yeah.

I mean, suicide is rampant.

And suicide and over, like people are dying of overdose.

Probably five, I think last time I looked, around 500 people have died of overdose, suicide, and murder over the last 20, 25 years.

And murder, because if you believe little of your, you know, if you believe little of yourself, you're going to end up in a relationship where that person thinks little of you and there's abuse and that abuse turns into, you know, you losing your life.

And like the amount of that happening it's documented is pretty astronomical um and then just i mean you know we were talking about

not to change the topic but um we were talking about guardian angels it's like man um there was hiv outbreaks like in the industry you know there like there were people i had unprotected sex with that had hiv that they died

there were there was an hiv outbreak that was big enough in the industry that it shut down for, you know, not a long time, but around two months.

Yeah, I mean.

Were there ever any open discussions about it?

I mean, did you have any

friends in the industry where you would have these

talks with about leaving or about things that were affecting you or anything like that?

Or was everybody wearing a mask?

Yeah.

I mean, I call it a first aid mask, you know,

where you don't know who you are, but you pretend to be whoever you think the person across from you wants you to be so that you can, you know,

appease them

or so that they would like you because you don't really know who you are or you believe who you are doesn't have any value.

But I would say there's this like

there's this generally across the board, there was this belief that, you know, doing something outside of the industry, the longer that you stayed in the industry, was

impossible.

So the only like the best possible outcome

is that you have a good, long-standing career in the industry.

And then one of the studios that you worked for a lot, you get hired on as a director, and then you work as a director.

You know, that was the next hopeful progression because

not being in the porn industry

wasn't an option because being in the porn industry meant you couldn't do anything else.

At least that's what I wanted you to believe.

I mean,

for example, Cagney Lynn Carter, she was a great friend of mine.

She got in a little bit after me, stayed in much longer than me,

much later than me.

And

I think it was last year.

She had left the industry, opened a dance studio.

She was like a ballet dancer, like in her teens, something that she still was passionate about.

And she opened up a place.

But everyone around her

was like,

you can do whatever you want you can say

that your name is whatever

but I know who you are

you'll you'll never escape

from from that you'll always be that person

and

she tried really hard and it's so sad bro because

she took her life and the day that she took her life she posted a photo of herself on the beach saying,

I'm free.

But what's true is

she was in prison.

Like you.

I wanted to leave the industry.

I wanted to do something else.

But you begin to believe that you can't.

And it's not something you do

it's who you are

and if the only thing in which you can do is to sell yourself for sex then your no loses its volition

you know it it loses its validity your no loses its validity because if the only thing that you can say yes to is selling yourself for sex then you can't say no to anything so you say yes to everything

And it's just so sad, man.

Yeah.

I mean, just to think it, you know, I was sharing with someone,

you know, there's, you know, 40, 40 of my friends, suicide, overdose.

Those porns are still there.

You know?

it's like, man,

if I could encourage someone that's watching that now, it's like, man,

you know,

there's this like,

there's all these things that are true while you don't know if there was forced fraud or coercion, you know, regarding

the scene that you're watching.

You don't know how old that person is.

Like, you don't know if they gave consent.

And

then in this situation, what I'm saying is you don't know if the thing in which they did

caused them so much pain and hurt that it led to their death, and you're partaking in the thing in which caused their demise, and you're extracting pleasure from it.

And that person is dead because of what they did, and

they're still making money off of it.

I mean, it's crazy.

I mean, past, you know,

you know, right, right before November 4th,

last big push from the Harris Walsh campaign, they ran ads on Pornhub in seven different states.

Why?

120 million viewers a day.

And they ran an ad saying

it was someone that, you know, a character that...

somewhat resembled Trump walking in and this it was so gross.

It was so gross.

There was this guy masturbating underneath a blanket, and he was looking at his phone, and someone that looks like Trump comes in and takes the phone away and says, if you don't want to lose your right to watch porn, you better vote

in the same way that you want, you know, to consume that.

Are you shitting me?

No.

Seven states ran those ads.

What states?

I'm not sure.

Jeez.

I mean, I would assume very left states.

But we're about to get to a point in the story that's pretty cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Man.

They really trap you.

Oh, yeah.

Had you known anybody that had made it out?

I know one girl.

I don't know one guy.

Well, I know guys that have made it out.

I don't know guys who are whole and healthy.

For example, a good friend of mine, his name's Greg, his porn name is Randy Spears.

He even had a character on Family Guy.

And

he lives in San Antonio and

he still goes by Randy Spears.

You know, he's got a normal job.

You know, he's not in the porn industry anymore.

He's about, you know, 10 years older than me.

But, you know, I talked to him and it's like, you know, he called me Rocco.

Like when he called, I called him and left him a voice memo or a voice message because he didn't answer.

And when he called me back, he called me Rocco and he

said that, you know, he was Randy.

And he sent me his social, he

texted me his social media and Randy Spears.

And I think it's this belief that

who I am can never

supersede that persona.

So

I'm going to cling on to that because my worth is so much less than

this.

So,

yeah.

I know one person named Brittany, she lives in Santa Barbara with her husband Richard.

They're actually both in ministry.

They do, they actually help girls that are in trafficking or like prostitution.

They kind of help them get back on their feet.

But yeah, like she's the only person that I know.

Are any of them reaching out to you?

Anybody?

Tons.

Like,

how do we get out of this?

Tons.

Every day.

And it's like, and

some people are very frustrated with me.

Because I, I mean, there's still people who are in the industry that are very successful that either I, you know, I mentored or were good friends to me.

Cause, you know, a lot of the guys who were younger, when I was in the industry, you know, they were like, you know, how do I do this?

How do I do this right?

How do I make a career out of this?

You know, how do I, you know, because the thing that I was best at was, well, I understood, well, if you get relational equity with a director, then he's going to hire you often and he's going to recommend you

to other people.

I understood networking.

I understood relationships.

And it's like, I wasn't, I was a good actor, you know, but I cared about people and I remembered people's names.

And, you know,

so like simple stuff was the things that allowed me to be very successful in that industry.

And I was just, you know, teaching them simple things that worked well for them.

But I've had conversations as of recently, you know, as of as recent as a month ago, of people who are very, very successful in the industry today that have been in the industry, you know, now, you know, approaching 15, 20 years

saying,

man,

I thought we were friends.

And I was like, well, what do you mean by that?

He's like, you say all this stuff about the industry.

I'm like, yeah, man, I...

detest the industry with every fiber of my being and I think it's vile and evil,

but

I love you

I don't I don't have to agree with what you're doing

I

mean I understand you found you you find identity in that

so I understand why that feels offensive to you

but I I don't have any animosity towards you I wish you would do something different with your life because the reality is bro if you are

girls also, if you're into the top 3% to 5% of any industry, you have the capacity of being excellent at another trade and being more successful.

Like you have charisma and gifts and talents that you are misappropriating.

But if you surrender and you submit to your per you to your life to the person of Jesus Christ and allow him to take the things that he put in you and point them in the right direction, guess what?

You're You're going to 10x your success.

And it's going to be something that you're doing that

is fulfilling because it's going to be the thing that you're made to do.

So, yeah,

I don't hate you.

I hate the choices that you're making, but I don't hate you.

And they just don't get it.

So

there has been a lot of

situations that I wish that I could have had the conversation in person.

Yeah.

So you leave the industry, come across Ved trainer.

I mean, how many people

are coming up to you that recognize you?

So day one,

I'm living now in Raleigh, North Carolina.

And first thing I do, I'm like, you know what?

I've got a Celtic cross tattoo on my shoulder that for some reason in my mind, like, I'm not walking around with my shirt off, but I'm like, I know that is on a hundred, you know,

covers of porn.

You know,

I'm going to get that covered up.

So I get it covered up.

I got like a,

I got a fish like coming out of water.

Like, oh, you know.

freaking cool, you know.

But I got that covered up and shaved my head, deleted my social media, and it's like

Rock O'Reid

gone, dead.

New life,

walk into Whole Foods.

Like, literally, I haven't even moved into my place yet.

And

guy in the meat section is like,

Rock O'Reid.

I was like.

Are you kidding me?

And then it just continued to happen over and over again.

And then I was just kind of like,

I was kind of found, you know,

I was found out,

but I just kind of,

you know,

deflect from it.

And I was just trying to build like, I'm a trainer.

I'm a trainer.

I'm a trainer.

I'm a good trainer.

I'm a good trainer.

I got a lot of personal training clients, you know.

making money.

I'm doing good.

I'm helping people.

I'm doing good.

And

two years of that.

and two years in this girl comes into the gym.

She's wearing like all Iowa Hawkeye cheerleading stuff.

So she had obviously, you know, was a alum.

I was very proud that she had cheered at Iowa.

Gorgeous, best athlete in the gym.

But she was different in that she worked really hard.

She would kick everybody's butt in the workout.

She was a gymnast.

So she could, you know, all this, like old school CrossFit.

Like if you could walk on your hands and like do stuff like that.

Like, if you were good at that, like you already had

an edge over everybody else.

But she was just better than everybody.

And I was just fascinated about, you know, with her.

And she was gorgeous.

So I asked her on a date and she was like,

I'm good.

I've been love, you know, rejection, you know.

So I asked her out a bunch of times and she was finally like, well, I'll go for a long run

before church on Sunday mornings.

If you want to meet me at this park, we can go for a run.

And I was like, all right, you know, I'll take whatever I can get.

And I get there and I'm there early and I'm waiting.

And I started thinking, I'm like, man,

you know,

Christmas party and like a few other parties we have, like

she didn't really hang out that much

she's always at the gym but

after the workout

if she's not like doing extra work or whatever

like she's not hanging out mingling like she's not like

she's not looking for fronts yeah and so aka she doesn't know my story and I'm like doesn't no

and I'm like man if she knew who I was

she would not you know agree to this and and there was just like some conviction that i had i'm like man i need to i need to be forthcoming with this not something i had done you know in the past and when she got there like the the run never made its way to a run where you know it was a maybe a brisk walk

and uh i was like hey

i just want to i want to share something with you it's going to you know be a little heavy She was like, okay,

what's up?

And I was like, you know, kind of like laid out my guts.

You know, I i was like man i'm the kid that his daddy didn't want and i'm you know i did all this porn and it's still all over the the internet and like every bad thing i've ever done that creates shame in my life you know it's on the internet forever and this is who i am

and she was just like

holy crap you know like super taken back and she didn't say anything we just continued to walk you know she didn't say a word and i didn't know if she was mad or she was gonna slap me or you know i don't know i was gonna am i gonna gonna get fired you know i i was just thinking like all these

then she stopped and she looked at me like you know she's an elementary teacher there's like there's the you know a look that like a mom or a teacher has and she just looked at me with this like

she's like hey um

i don't want to minimize

the pain that you've experienced in your life and I don't want to negate the the

problems that your decisions have made for you.

But I want you to know

that you're not defined by the worst thing you've ever done,

and you won't be defined by the greatest thing you ever do.

Because there's one author of you,

and it's not you.

it's God do you know who that is do you know God

and I was like

maybe

I went to church a little bit when I was a kid because my my grandmother my grandfather they went to church they had a faith

I was like

No of God.

I certainly don't know God.

And she was like, well, I've been following Jesus since I was in the seventh grade, and I'm not perfect by any means, but

my foundation that I live

from

is from my relationship with him.

Like, the way I live my life is contingent on my relationship with him.

So, what kind of food do you like?

I was like,

What?

Are you like an alien or something?

Like, what?

Like, what are you talking about like you don't want me to leave

like she's asking me about smart goals I'm like dude I don't know what an acronym is like what are you talking about like I

like I had the worst of intentions with you like I

my plan a B and C is to hook up with you you know

I I don't, I have no idea, you know?

And then we just walked and talked and she asked me questions that I didn't think of for a long time.

You know, like, what, what do I want to, like, in, in the gym industry?

Like, would you ever want to own a gym?

You know, what's your relationship like with your family?

Like, do you, like, would you ever want to have kids?

You know, just asking me things that are like, I.

I honestly, like, I feel like

it had been so long of like me thinking like that.

I was like

reaching for humanity.

I didn't know if I still had.

That went on for, you know, we walked and talked for like probably two hours.

And then, you know,

she, you know, we went separate ways and, you know, text like.

high school idiots for a week.

And then on Saturday, she was like, hey,

I would love for you to come with me to church.

And I was like, Wherever you're going, yes.

You know, I'll be there.

Wherever the pretty girl's going, yes.

And

she had like, she had been catalytic for like some curiosity.

I'm like, what in you

allowed you to respond to me like that?

You know, like

there's this really great book I love, Master Plan of Evangelism.

Robert E.

Coleman wrote it, and he talks about how

it's good to tell people, you know,

something, but it's better to show them.

People are often not looking for an explanation.

They're looking for a demonstration.

And I think, you know, Colossians 4, like Paul's talking about, hey,

you know, I'm in prison for preaching the gospel, but I'm praying for opportunities to preach the gospel, and I'm praying to do it with clarity, and I'm praying to do it with with tact.

You know, I want to be wise towards outsiders.

And most importantly, man, allow my speech to be gracious and seasoned with salt so I might know how I ought to answer each person.

Because how I respond

matters.

How I respond to the individual in front of me.

Not a blanket statement.

The person in front of me.

How I am aware, how I'm intentional,

how react is important.

And the way that she reacted to me, like,

it,

it was like, wow, dude.

And

she invited me to church and

we went there and I thought, you know, am I going to like set, you know, into

am I going to catch on fire when I walk in?

You know, like,

I certainly have no business here is what I was thinking.

And then, you know, my only like excuse.

And I think a lot of people can relate to that.

Yeah.

I mean, I thought, you know, I thought the same thing when I walked in.

Yeah.

Totally different reasons.

Maybe not so different, but

I get it.

Yeah.

I mean, I thought, you know, if you had, you know, tattoos on your arm and wrinkles on your shirt, like you're going to hell.

You know, that's what's that's what i thought and then i saw a a man with tattoos and you know a t-shirt and jeans like get up on stage um

preaching

and he's told he told the story of uh second samuel chapter nine and um

just to provide a little bit of context so um second samuel chapter nine it's king david david had just rebuilt the temple and now he's you know kind of at the pinnacle of his reign as king and he's just rebuilt the temple and he had done something for God

and then he was asking himself introspectively

Lord what can I do for your people

to show your loving kindness to me how can I reciprocate the love that I've experienced from you like to your people and then he's like oh yeah

I made this promise to my friend Jonathan so Jonathan was the son of Saul.

Saul, his kingdom was stripped from him when he sinned.

And then David was chosen and anointed to be king.

And then there was this conflict between Saul and David.

And

Saul had a son, Jonathan.

And Jonathan and David were great friends.

And Jonathan even was like, hey, I know my dad's like trying to like throw spears at you and like trying to kill you.

And like, he's, you know, kind of lost it.

If he's plotting on you, I'm going to have your back.

I'm going to let you know.

And then David said, hey, I'm going to make this covenantal promise with you that I'm going to show you love and affection, not only to you forever, but to your family as well.

Now, fast forward, he's remembering this.

And he's saying, man, how can I show this to,

you know, God's people?

And he's, oh,

I wonder if there's anyone left out of the house of Saul.

And he finds a guard.

Ziba is the guard's name.

And he served under Saul.

And he's like, hey, is there anyone left?

And he's like, yeah,

Mephelosheth.

Mephelbosheth was a son of Jonathan, but he's in this place called Lodobar.

It means place of no pasture.

He's in hiding because

he was, you know, when he was around like five or six years old, when

his dad and his grandfather, when Jonathan and Saul were killed in battle,

you know, there was this hierarchy where he was next in line to be king, but David was chosen and anointed anointed to be king.

So if David had his right place on the throne, historically, if there was an opposing person that could potentially cause an upheaval, they were identified and eradicated.

You know, that was the plan.

So he was in hiding because he thought his head was on the chopping block.

David goes, finds him, brings him in front of him.

And Mephabosheth is like, you know, doomsday.

Today's the day.

I'm going to die.

I've been found.

And David says, actually, I'm going to

give to you, I'm going to restore back to you your grandfather's land, which is part of Canaan, so the promised land.

I'm going to give you access back to your land.

And I'm going to invite you into my kingdom.

And I want you to have a seat at my table, not for a day, not for a week, but forever.

You are now part of this family.

And I was like, wow, this is amazing.

It's a beautiful picture of grace.

But 2 Samuel chapter 9, verse 8, Mephabosheth, how does he respond to this?

Does he's like, wow, you know, God is so good.

Wow, this is amazing.

No.

He refers to himself as a dead dog.

He says, what would you want to do with a dead dog like me?

And I was like, yeah,

that's it.

Because before he was talking about, man, you know, Romans 3, 23 says that we've all sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

So everybody's guilty.

Romans 6, 23, you know, the wage of sin is death.

So if we're all guilty and that guilt equates to death, eternal separation from God, if that's true for everyone, then, okay, I'm on the same playing field.

But then you're talking about, you know, this grace of God.

You know, I'm like, okay, you know, Romans 10, 9, whoever confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believed that he was raised on the third day will be saved.

I'm like, this is amazing.

But then I still find myself

don't you know who i am don't you know what i've done

don't you know who my daddy is don't you know

even he didn't want me

and then he read hebrews 12 2

it talks about how jesus

went to the cross with joy in his heart set before him scorning our shame before he sat down at the right hand of God.

And I'm like,

joy.

You're talking about that, okay, Jesus was

fully God, fully man, so fully perfect.

He's omniscient, he's all-knowing.

So an all-powerful, all-knowing God

went to the cross.

Okay, he was obedient to his father, so that makes sense.

But why would he have joy

in his heart?

And then it hit me

because he loves me.

Because he loves me.

God loves me.

And I just kept saying it to myself over and over and over again.

And I fell to my knees and I started to cry.

I'm not sure what happened that day, but when I stood up, you know,

I gave my life to Jesus the best I knew how.

What I felt when I stood up was the ruck was off my back.

And I understood the father that I always wanted,

he gave me pictures of shielding me and protecting me and walking with me and fighting for me and believing the best about me.

That's why Romans 5.8 is so powerful.

Like, while knowing the worst thing you've ever done,

Jesus went to the cross and died for you.

Like he would, like, it talks about how, you know, you wouldn't do that, you know, for a bad person, maybe for a righteous person, but

not someone that had done the things, you know, that we did that put him on the cross.

Like, no way.

Yeah.

While knowing the worst thing you've ever done, the thing that you would not want to say out loud, he knows that and he chooses you.

Why?

Because he loves you.

And that love, it changed me that day.

It didn't fix all my problems.

I was still, you know, very much a knucklehead.

But man, if there was something that I was sure of, it was that God loved me.

And I wanted to be different.

And the thing that I didn't think was possible

just came true is that I had a father

who adored me.

And

that girl,

her name is Hope, which is pretty cool.

And, you know, I'm not the smartest person in the world, but married her.

And, you know, we've been married for nine years.

And

got four boys.

And I've just seen so much beauty come from the ashes of my life.

And, you know, from,

you know, that moment of being discipled, going to Liberty and getting a theological education to preaching at Liberty at Convocation last month and doing, you know, having conversations with incredible people like yourself.

Like, I didn't have the guts.

How did you immediately start implementing this stuff into your life after that after that

hour at church?

Yeah, I mean, for me,

it's like, you know,

so thinking about like, like fighting, like

I wasn't the best fighter, but I was a good counterpuncture, you know.

Basketball, like

I was quick.

but I wasn't fast.

So I was a shooter, so I had to, I could, I could create separation so I could get my shot off

all these things were technical technique driven but I understood that it would yield results so I believed man if I take inventory of the things in my life that don't line up with where I want to go and I implement a regimen of things that

will set me on the trajectory for me to go then it'll work Okay, so where do I start?

Need a mentor.

So first thing I did, it was so crazy.

I go to this church.

It was a pretty big church in Raleigh.

And I was like, there's a pastor I can talk to.

Like, sure.

You know, executive pastor was, you know, around the corner, just happened to be in there.

His name's Gary Vett.

And I walked in there and I was like, can I tell you a story?

Because I feel like God wants me to build a boat.

But I shared with him my story and I was like, man, I feel like I need to build a foundation because I think there's people that God's going to use my story to rescue, to point to himself.

And that's the boat that I feel like I need to build.

What am I supposed to do?

He's like,

wow, you know?

And then he grabs this guy, Andrew.

And Andrew just graduated from DTS, Dallas Theological Seminary, moved to Raleigh to help open another campus.

And discipleship was something that he was passionate about and gifted in, like, very gifted teacher.

And, you know, if

I, you know, it's funny.

I used to tell a story.

It was like, man, he was a new guy on staff.

He had all this free time.

You know, knowing what I know now in ministry, the new guy on staff does not have free time.

You know, you're doing all the stuff.

But he's like, I didn't have time.

And honestly, you know, my plan was to

give you a Bible,

tell you, you know, what to read,

and tell you to get plugged into a small group.

And

he was like, man, just the Holy Spirit just fell on me and convicted me.

Like when you walked in my office and I was like, man,

I've got to

pour out every bit of me into him.

And I don't know why.

And, you know, he didn't know what he was getting himself into.

He's like, man, I just want you, you know, to open up my office to you.

You know, I want to spend as much time discipling you as you want to spend.

So I was like, okay.

You know, I've got a little bit of a crazy work ethic where I was like, all right.

So I was like doing everything I could to like, I was like giving away personal training clients.

And I was showing up at his office and I was spending.

10 to 15 hours a week with Andrew.

And, you know, we started in the book of John, where the book of John, you know, anyone asked me what's the first book of the Bible I need to read?

The book of John.

The book of John is an eyewitness account of the life of Jesus.

You know,

John walked with Jesus and John wants you to know, hey, this is who Jesus is.

This is what Jesus did.

And this is how it matters to all that believe.

And, you know, and it's...

Like John specifically is written to not specifically like a Greek audience, not specifically a Jewish audience.

It's an overarching audience.

So it uses language that's not confusing.

It's very clear.

So we dug into that.

And

I wasn't like a scholarly dude, but like I could read and like regurgitate stuff, but it wouldn't always like conceptualize.

There was, I mean,

it's true that the, you know, the Bible says that the Bible is, you know, the word of God is alive and active, sharper than, you know, any two-edged sword, divides bone and marrow.

Where if

you are allowing the Holy Spirit to lead you, I think it's important that we pray before we read our Bible.

Man, I was reading this text and it was like, it wasn't just words on a page.

It was like it was coming into my heart and undoing things.

And it was like,

I was like receiving, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's, I think think it's appropriate that we talk about, you know, Jesus is the bread of life, you know, it's the, the water that will never leave you thirsty.

Because once you experience like true sustenance, like if you've ever been starving and then you find sustenance, like you're satisfied in a way that is almost like you can't fully articulate,

it was that.

And I experienced a peace that came with that that I became very hungry for and I couldn't get enough.

And for me, you know, it used to be, man, if you come to my house, you know, or my grandma's house, her buttermilk biscuits are ridiculous.

And, you know, she's such a great grandma that, you know,

I get out of school, you know, at 3.37.

She's taking them out of the oven at 3.40.

You know, they're hitting a plate and you can bite them.

They're still crispy on the top and they're soft in the middle.

And she times times it perfect.

You got to try this.

The gospel became that for me.

It was like, man, this really works.

This really is changing my life.

And it's beautiful and interesting and captivating.

And

it's the best story ever told.

And that story, it's about a God that is personal and wants to get to know you.

And man, I can't wait to tell you about him.

And that just became

all I ever wanted to do.

And that's, you know, if I'm honest, like, I get to do some really cool stuff.

But at the end of the day, like, that's the thing that fires me up most.

So it started there.

But I think, like,

if you're to teach anyone anything, you know, I was talking about Victor, you know, like Victor is going to

show me how to do something with a knife.

And then he was going to give me the knife.

And then I need to show him what he showed me.

Because if I can't replicate what you just taught me, I didn't catch it, you know?

And you have to apply it to truly learn it.

And I think when we reciprocate our faith in that, we share things that God has

implanted on us to others, there's something that's solidified.

You think

there's something beautiful that happens when there's a physical and practical response to something.

that's prompted in us spiritually.

And that just has been natural for me.

How long did it take you to learn forgiveness?

A lot longer.

A lot longer.

I think the first

the first step of that was

when our first son was born.

I remember like

I remember like, my wife is like a dramaphobe and she's always like, you know, have you washed your hands?

Have you washed your hands like our kids like any like we will like be somewhere and wash our hands and get in our car and if we pick up like takeout you know and we're gonna eat it on the way home they're in the back like watching a movie or whatever they know like you got to get the hand sanitizer also you know

but So when our son's born, you know, I'm like, she's already instilled the fear in me.

But by that point, I'm like, are my hands clean enough, you know, to touch our son, you know?

Because the nurses had him and, you know, he's all like slimy and cone-headed and got the little bonnet like hanging off his head.

And I'm freaked out.

So she was in the middle of a CrossFit workout when her water broke.

And like she, like, we went home.

We'd, like, we had just bought our first house, been married for about two years.

And

just like she was like, I'm going to do my makeup and then we'll go to the hospital.

Like, your water broke, you know, I'm like freaking out.

I thought I needed to have like, you know,

but we get there and her water broke, but she wasn't dilated enough.

And then almost 24 hours later, he's born.

So I'm like crackhead by that point.

And he's born.

I'm like emotional and hungry and tired and all the things.

And the nurse has him.

And he's looking, you know, all alien-like.

And

she's like, do you want to touch him?

You want to see him?

And I walk over him, like,

you know,

and as I'm reaching in his direction, his little hand reaches up and grabs my finger, and I started weeping.

And, like, not audibly, but you know, in my spirit, I heard God say,

I love you more than that.

And

I said, man,

I don't deserve that.

I don't deserve to be a dad.

I don't know how to be a dad.

I'm scared.

I don't know how to do it right.

I've never seen it done.

I'm a, you know, I'm a screw up.

You know, I, I, I started just thinking all these things.

I was thinking then, I was, I was 30, you know

33

at that time

and I was like man my dad was 16

and I think like that moment

it

is the beginning of me feeling some empathy for him

and

Some time passed and

God started opening up some cool opportunities.

I was on staff at Life Church for a while as an associate pastor and then took a teaching position in Iowa.

And then kind of thing after thing started happening.

You know, I did Tucker and Candace Owens and a few other things and started getting a lot of momentum, a lot of opportunities.

God was just moving.

And

kind kind of in the middle of that, I was in Dallas actually before we lived there.

And I was staying at the Omni.

And

I'd woken up at around like 2 a.m.

And it's often, not super often, but often that God will wake me up.

And I feel prompted to pray in the middle of the night.

And

I was lazy.

So I was just like, I'm just going to lay here.

I'm like, okay, Lord,

you know.

And

I began to think, like,

hey, what am I doing?

And I just felt like super distracted.

And then I started to think, it's almost like the Holy Spirit kind of brought to the forefront of my mind: like,

do you fear me?

Like, do you revere me?

Like, the fear of the Lord rightly understood is reverence, not you know, human fear.

Like, do you revere me as Lord?

get on my face and

begin to pray and then I started to see almost like if you would like go through a flipbook

my dad

I don't

The

the way that I would look out that glass, like looking for my dad,

is my dad as a kid looking for me.

And

how it just got harder over time.

And

while I was feeling empathy, I was also feeling this like bubble of rage at the same time.

You know, these like two conflicting emotions.

And I was just like, man.

Because I've like screamed into my pillow before, like, when, you know, especially with

the day that we found out we were pregnant for the first time, someone hacked my wife's Facebook and sent every single person, like family, friends, like grandma,

like my pornography.

It's like we announced we're pregnant

five minutes later.

Damn.

So I'm like, in moments like that,

I was like, I don't know why.

Like, Obviously, I'm like, man,

I'd love to grab that IT, that IP address and go curb kick that person.

But also,

something in me, it was almost like the first thing I would think was like, man,

dad, if you would have been there, this stuff wouldn't have happened.

I wouldn't be experiencing that.

It's your fault.

And it would go from like, it's your fault to like, dad, it's your fault.

Why couldn't you just be there?

You you were down the street

like why do you hate me

and then just my heart broke and I'm just like

I have to forgive him

and I don't know what that looks like but I have to figure out a way and then I tell my wife and my wife be my wife She like some she like messages um he's got you know I have a half brother and sister that i don't know very well but she reaches out to justin um and then she gets his number and then i end up with his number and she's like you know very quickly she's like here you go

do what you need to do

i called him and um

We had that phone call and it was like, man,

like

when I had that conversation with him,

it didn't go exactly like I thought it would,

but

a million pounds came off of me.

But what's really wild is in between that dream and that phone call,

the weekend I had with Victor Marks.

nuts.

So

we know Victor and it was

it was I think maybe it was like the third or fourth time I'd hung out with him

and

we were filming a

spiritual warfare documentary

and

he had interviewed me for that and he's got you know this this prayer, you know, this retooling prayer where you identify like, is there any demonic oppression on you and calls them out.

We did it on here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, but he, he did that with me and I was just like, you know, it's like, I, you know, I, I would say I'm like

Baptecostal.

You know, I'm like Baptist in my theology and Pentecostal in my expression.

Um, but like the demonic, you know, what like wasn't super familiar with, you know,

definitely experienced a lot of evil, but regarding stuff like that, not, you know, not super in tune with.

And

I think your whole life's been spiritual boring, man.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

But I think that the demonic is

sorry.

No, no, no, no,

it's traps.

It's these fucking traps.

Yeah.

It's vices, it's addiction, it's lust sex

it's temptation money yeah

jealousy resentment those are i think that i think how the i think i think about this shit all the time i think that's how it works

Different traps work for different people.

Oh, sure.

Yours was,

I mean, it doesn't sound like yours was even really lust.

It was more fame and money.

Yeah, and affirmation.

Yeah, and your whole life has been acceptance.

Where can I get accepted?

First one that came along, or at least the first one you noticed,

you know, was

so there was three traps set.

Acceptance, fame, money.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

You know, and so I think it's

if you display what you really,

I don't know how to say this, if you display what you're really craving or want, whether it's, you know, sex,

power,

fame, money,

those things will come.

Yeah.

But they might not be good.

Yeah, I mean, I would say it's easy to fall into this shit.

Oh, yeah.

I see it all the time.

I mean,

I think you're really tapping into something important because the reality is that most people that struggle with porn, like porn is problematic in their life, but porn is not their problem.

Like, porn is the band-aid that they've covered

the wound, the lack, the need

with,

and now that the porn has become problematic in their life.

Where, you know, you started watching porn um because of what whatever

um

but it was it's it's covering something that's so much deeper

that's why you know helping people stop watching it it's not you shouldn't do that

we do stuff that i ought not to do all the time you know um it's it's so much deeper than that it's like why

why do i do what i do um in contrast of

why do I do you know stuff that I don't want to do you know Paul talks about that like why do I have this this desire to do things I ought not do

why do I find myself doing these things

yeah

but I mean

it doesn't even necessarily appear like a trap it doesn't look like a trap at the time unless it could be trapped there right and then and then you're in well a good a good you know a good trap would have camouflage.

And I think that's why John 10, 10 talks about the enemy wants to kill, steal, and destroy.

And

you're thinking about if he's going to put you in change, he's not going to show you the full picture of the chain that you will be in.

He's just going to show you a link.

And like how that link's not a big deal.

I love

this Dallas Willard quote.

I believe it's Dallas Willard, but it just talks about how repentance seems easy

at first, and then after you sin, it seems impossible.

You know?

I mean, how, like,

there's a demonic assignment on each person.

And, you know, I think the...

I would say the biggest problem, especially like in like Protestant circles,

is

this

negligence or this disbelief that evil can tangibly impact your life as a follower of Christ.

Because

are we without sin?

No.

And when we sin, what do we do?

We essentially invite an opportunity for deception.

Yeah, I mean, I love

the way that JP just like lays it out there.

He spent two years just talking about, man,

we're digging into the fact that, you know, there's

the devil, like, you're not interested, you know, that you're not interesting to the devil per se, but he's got legions of demons

that, you know, they know the wounds, you know, in

your family history.

They know the things in which you have a proclivity towards.

He knows, you know, what kind of trap to set for you.

He can't make you take the bait, but he can make it seem enticing.

And even more so, once you take it, he can make you believe that

it's not a big deal.

But yeah, man, back

to that moment with Victor, we were doing that retooling prayer, and I was like, I was pretty dismissive of it.

And then we did it.

And then as soon as he started talking,

it was like I was a kid, and I was in a room

where

it was, he took me, it took me to a moment that I had suppressed as a kid.

I was seven and a half years old, and I was, I heard my mom being hit

by this guy that she was married to.

And I,

there was the, the dresser, it was pressed up against the door, and I was pressing with my forearm against the door, and I got it open just enough where I could see through it.

And I saw him hitting her, and I was screaming at him.

And I felt so weak and so useless because I couldn't open that door.

And then I cried until I fell asleep.

And

I woke up,

and he was just like, what lie did the enemy tell you?

It's like, that I'm not good enough.

It was just like,

man.

And it was like, so how do you undo?

You know,

how do you undo something like that?

It's like,

how do you replace a lie?

Well, you have to replace it with a truth.

You know, Thomas Kempis talks about habit has to be replaced with habit.

A lie has to be replaced with truth.

So I'm like, man,

how do I fix this?

How do I undo this?

How do I,

you know,

what do I do with this?

What do I do with this like

new, like, unearthed trauma?

You know, I've already like been to counseling for two years.

You know, I've already,

it was like something I didn't deal with.

I never even even thought of it.

I didn't even know it happened, really.

And the first thing I could think of was again that dream when I was praying.

You know, that moment when I was praying, it's like, man,

the reason I don't believe that I'm enough, it came from

another lie

that my dad wasn't there for me

because

I'm not good enough.

I'm not good enough to be his son.

So I'm going to choose to forgive him in spite

of an outcome.

And I did.

And I think the enemy, like,

like,

I thought in my head, like, man, God had orchestrated this incredible moment, you know, that.

I was going to, like, when I caught him, there was going to be, like, fireworks shooting off.

And then we were going to, like, you know, know,

grab some shotguns and go hunting or something.

You know, like,

but it was just not the case.

And

I was talking with a buddy of mine recently, Matt Chandler.

And

he was telling me the story of.

like him and his dad like reconnecting like later in life

and uh he was like i was like well how did you know how did that happen And he was like, man, just like randomly one day, I just got like this inkling to say, hey, dad,

I've got access to this cabin.

I'm going out there for three days,

hunt, fish, do all the stuff you love to do.

Why don't you come with me?

It's all on me.

It's all taken care of.

Why don't you come?

hang out with me and he did

and you know ended up professing Jesus as Lord.

Ended up having a great relationship.

Even moved closer to him.

And I was just like,

my dad, like, has a, you know,

he, like, my dad's, like,

office, like, looks like this.

If it was, like, dear and bore, and, you know,

I was like, he'll be all over that.

Send out a text,

look at it,

show it to my wife,

hit send,

30 seconds go by.

I don't think that's going to work.

There was so much in me that wanted to like

take 10 steps back, you know.

It's like, man,

like, what?

What do I have to do?

But at the end of the day, it's like, man,

I can't control his decisions

and I can't control

his response

to dictate

how I perceive reality and live my life.

All I can do is be the best father I can be and the best husband I can be and be the best Christ follower I can be and be the best leader in the organization that I'm part of.

It's not you, it's him.

Yeah, I mean, it sucked, you know, it sucked.

Like, I thought for sure, like, that was

it.

But I think a better way to think about it,

you know, as I'm sitting here, it's like maybe it was a seed, you know.

When was that

three months ago?

It's a lot of pain.

Yeah.

And it's wild.

It's like, you know, I spend a lot of time talking about porn.

But when I do men's events,

like, I know

90%

or more of the guys there have or are struggling with porn.

The thing that

I get to minister to people about is that

there's some kind of father wound, and there's there's levels of fatherlessness.

You know, there's there's guys, you know, fathers that they weren't there at all.

There were guys, there were fathers that, you know, the divorce or death, or

it would be easy for me to become the father that's absent in that

I'm there,

but

I'm trying to overcompensate so hard that I'm not present.

So

so many guys with a similar woo.

How do you keep that balance?

How do I keep the balance?

I mean for me, it's like, again, my wife is just the best.

Where we were doing premarital counseling and,

you know looking we were looking at like the five love languages and

she was saying well her top love language is quality time

and naturally

the way that we are naturally inclined to love people is the way in which we most naturally receive love which often is not the same as our spouse And, you know, with hope, she wanted quality time.

Like, she was like, never, like, not seen as

like her family.

It's like if they, they fell out of the Hallmark channel.

You know, it's like not real life.

You know,

she talks to her mom and her sister multiple times a day.

And, you know, they're on, like, you know,

her sister just had a baby.

And they're like, you know,

it's wild.

It's nothing like I've ever seen.

It's almost, it's not uncomfortable, but it's like, it's so normal, it's weird to me.

But

she was like, quality time.

So like when I hear quality time, I'm like, quality date, quality dinner,

like

something really good.

She's like, you know, I want, you know,

sit on the end of a pier where the water is completely, you know, placid and just sit there, you know, no folds, nothing,

just unattached from everything, just me and you.

The greatest gift that you can give me,

the greatest present that you can give me is your presence.

And that's hard for somebody that doesn't think a lot of themselves.

So it was almost like the way that

the way that she required me to love her well

allowed me to heal.

He was like, Man, how could you see that in me?

And

there's just been so many times where she has just did things and said things

that have been so healing to me.

So with our kids,

you know, she reminds me that, you know,

like Canon, especially, I guess, my dude,

he likes presence and likes

stuff.

At the end of the day, he wants me to sit on the ground and play tic-tac-toe with him.

Yeah.

And it's like we overcomplicate simple things that distracts us from the most meaningful things.

It's a good way to put it.

So it's that.

It's, you know,

the way that she loves me well is she lovingly course corrects me from time to time.

Sometimes it's, you know, a bony elbow and sometimes it's a, it's a kiss on the cheek.

But

she's never afraid to tell me the truth.

And I appreciate that so much about her.

Sounds like a great woman.

Oh, yeah.

It is wild.

I mean, like we were, we were, you know, we were sitting with a group of people and someone asked her like, well, you know, in good faith, they were asking her, like, gosh, I just admire you so much.

Like, how do you not have

animosity towards him?

Slept with thousands of girls, you know, did all this stuff that's all over the internet.

And

how do you not have like

something

like in you that causes you to compare yourself?

You know, like, how do you not have animosity and like,

how do you not have that in you?

And she was like well i i knew him for five days before he gave his life to christ um so i'm not going to hold his past against him like and

um

i don't believe that when you google him you will find the thing that's most true about him the thing that's most true about him

is

that he is a son of the king of kings.

So I'm going to speak to him and think of him the way that God does, not the way that Satan does.

Because Satan would like me to hold on to his past,

but God says,

that is my son whom I'm well pleased.

That's been forgiven and cleansed by his blood.

Like the prodigal son, like when the prodigal son took one step.

toward his father, the father ran towards him and put a ring on his finger, sandals on his feet, a robe on his back, and threw a party because, you know, this he said, This is my son who's come home.

And I think, man, it's like, if

I think if we could just understand who God is, he would seem

not only more attractive, but irresistible.

Wow, man.

that is a hell of a story.

Yeah.

What a strong woman.

Well, you want to end it in a prayer?

Yeah, let's do it.

All right, you lead it,

Father.

We thank you

that

we get to look at you and say,

Abba, Father.

We thank you for our time together.

And Lord, we just pray that the conversation that we had, it is both convicting

and comforting.

And that it doesn't matter what you've done.

It doesn't matter what's happened to you.

It doesn't matter how far you've gone.

You cannot outrun or outsend what Jesus has done for you on the cross.

And to the person that is wrestling with and struggling with pornography addiction, God, I pray that you lovingly correct them, that you do not condemn them for their sin,

that if they are a follower of you, that there are someone that would say, hey, I call myself a follower of Jesus.

Your word says that Romans 8, 1, that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

So I pray that they don't feel condemned in shame,

but they do feel corrected in their spirit and that this is not a good thing.

This is not something that they should hide.

This is something they need to tell someone that's close to them and that they pursue freedom and healing.

And God, I just pray that to the person that doesn't know you,

that we understand that we were created to live forever and where we spend forever is up to us, that you sent your son into this world to die the death that we deserved.

He paid our debt on the cross.

And God, I just pray that to the person that doesn't know you, that they, right now in this moment, that you draw them close to yourself and they say, hey, I'm a sinner that needs saving.

I don't know how to do it on my own.

But Jesus, I pray that you come into my life, that I turn from my sin and I turn to you and I give you my life, and I trust you.

And I pray that you fill them with the Holy Spirit so they can follow you with all their life, for the rest of their life.

We pray this all in Jesus' mighty name.

Amen.

Amen.

Well, Josh,

thank you, man.

Thank you.

I just hope that,

when I just hope that, and I know you will.

And I wish you the

best of success with what you're doing now and spreading the message.

and and i just hope that this conversation

you know just

a lot of people out there are caught in a vice a trap a prison and they don't think they can find their way out of it i've been in one multiple times i know i mean it's a big part of what we do and and uh i just hope people take this and and realize there's always a way out

there is always a way out yeah and yeah just the reality that wherever you are today

you're not stuck.

You know,

you can change.

It doesn't have to always be this way.

That's the gospel, that, you know, God loves us enough to meet us where we are, no matter what our situation is.

But he also loves us enough to not leave us as we are.

God bless, brother.

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