#178 Ben Owen - Inside the Life of an Addict

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I know my team's getting ready to go down there and do that with you. Yeah, I'm going to take them to 1420 at Woodward Street, the house that used to be full of bullet holes.
There's a woman and her three children living in that house that just celebrated Christmas. The women that used to sell dope out of that house, I've got them housed in another old trap house around the corner.
So I was nearing rock bottom and stole a bunch of dope from Crecia. Do you know that? Yeah, and I wanted to kill you today.
You know, when the doctors told me that I was dying and I was really relieved because I was sick of living like that, you know, I really couldn't be more stoked about it. I mean, I didn't want to die a junkie, but that's kind of where life had brought me.
This is where we housed the females who were selling their bodies. Those who would not submit, they got dealt with harshly, very harshly.
I started using when I was 12 years old. My life just started getting worse after that.

Constantly in and out of jail.

Getting beat on.

Domestic violence. Ben Owen.

Sean Ryan.

Welcome to the show, man.

Thank you, sir.

I've been really looking forward to this one. I have too.
It's an absolute honor to be here. Thank you.
Thank you. Well it's an honor to have you and I love your hat.
Thank you. 444 is my number.
Is it? Oh yeah. So explain that to me.
I've heard 444 is an angel number and I don't know why. It is.
So long story. But about, I think it's been about two years now, had basically had God like slap me in the face in Sedona.
And I won't get into it because we'll be here all day, but, like, no shit. He just, like, showed up three times back to back to back in my life.
And then I came home, and I was telling, I had called this guy Eddie Penny, who's a friend of mine. We worked together in the SEAL teams very early on.
And then we reconnected through the show. And when he came on, it's like the whole dynamic of my show kind of changed.
His journey to faith and how he found Christ was just astounding and sent waves throughout the listenership of the show. And after he came on, it was like every person that came on the show talked about Jesus or their belief in Christ or, you know what I mean, something like that.
Every single one for the longest time, I think it was over a year. And, you know, I started putting it together and I was like, man.
And I released Eddie's episode on Christmas. And then I had my own experience in Sedona where I had done psychedelics to, you know, get over some stuff.
We can get into that later. But it kind of like, it didn't, psychedelics didn't like reignite my belief in Christ or anything like that.
But it made me realize there's something more out there. And so I was searching all kinds of stuff, looking at fucking crystals and you name it, man.
I was like trying to figure it out. And then Sedona happened.
Long story short, this guy read my mind from front to back. Read my mind.
Every thought in my head he articulated right to my face. had never seen him before, nothing.

And then two more things happened right after that.

And came home, called Eddie to tell him about it,

and he was talking about guardian angels and all this other stuff.

And then I called this IT guy that used to work for me, also a good friend, and kind of a spiritual-type mentor in my new journey. And those two had talked about the exact same thing back-to-back.
They don't know each other. Also about guardian angels.
I thought we were talking about email blasts when I called. His name was Adam.
His name is Adam. And came home from lunch after that.
This was like a super powerful experience for me, this whole timeline from Sedona. And I called Eddie because I wanted to talk to him about what had happened.
And he's also a mentor of mine with this stuff. back in my truck to go to work looked at the clock 444.
looked at the you know miles left to empty 444. four hours and 44 minutes after i had the conversation with adam because that that call was scheduled at noon got to the, got with my head of social media.
I was like, hey, what does 444 mean? This just happened to me. We looked it up.
It said, your guardian angel wants you to know that he's watching over you. And like I said, the conversation four hours and 44 minutes before that was about your guardian angel knows that knew you before you were ever even born and all this other stuff.
And so then I started seeing that number everywhere, like everywhere. Hell yeah.
444 comments, 444 likes, 444 on the clock. It was just everywhere.
And now, like I've really, through my journey, are you Christian? Absolutely. Through my journey, and my whole team's like really wrapped up in this, like way better versed in this than I am.
And some of the guys you met downstairs, like Darren, I mean, he knows. He grew up as a Jehovah's Witness, escaped all of that, but knows the Bible like the back of his hand.
So he's been a mentor of mine. My old head of production elijah grew up baptist so all these guys like who i never really i can't say i didn't pay attention to him but not in that aspect of like really like helped answer a lot of questions that i have and any anytime i read something out of the bible they they're always there to help me.
And through my journey, I've really leaned into gut instinct, and I think that's where it's at. That's the Holy Spirit.
Yes. I'm convinced of that.
You cannot tell the Lord. Gut instinct is the Spirit.
So now when I'm making tough decisions or I want to know if I'm doing the right thing with the show or whatever it is man a lot of it has to do with the show like you know we get we get some pretty crazy interviews and like for example the last one was the last one that really kind of threw me off. And I was like, am I, should I be doing this? I went to Romania and interviewed Colleen Georgescu about some corruption that's going on there.
And I was like, man, I don't know. Am I doing the right thing here? My gut tells me yes, but then you get in your head.
And I'll start seeing the numbers, man. They'll just start popping up everywhere right in front of me.
And I don't think I know. For me, when I see that number or sequence, 222, 444, 777, whatever it is, I know that that's like, yeah, Sean, your gut's right.
God winks. I'm giving you the confirmation that you need to press forward with this.
And even then, man, I remember I did, on the way to Romania, we had a layover, I think, in New York. And we had just released another super controversial interview with Sam Shumate and everybody's calling me oh you're a CIA oh the comments on that were hilarious dude but I was like man I really that email was real we got the email, we And anyways, and it turned out FBI came out and said, yeah, the email, they said on the podcast.
Not the Sean Ryan show, but the email that's going around that was on the podcast was legitimate. And that came out right before that layover.
And so I tweeted out on X, the truth is like a lion, set it free, and it'll defend itself. Right after I sent that tweet, this woman walks around the corner and she's got this huge lion head, like this sparkly lion head on her shirt.
And I was just like, you can't, like, there it is, man. Like, you're on, Sean, just lean into your gut.
You're on the right path. Quit with the bullshit noise outside.
Get out of your head your head like just lean into the gut instinct and and so anyways now you come in here and you got a hat atf 444 so i know this is going to be a really good interview and uh i hope so very powerful and i know it's going to change a lot of lives so once again here it is but what is the atf 444 to you so the atf triple four was a gcpsu afghan special police unit and we evacuated we tried to evacuate some of them and failed but we did get his brother to america and he gave me the patch when we resettled him in houston man that's awesome yeah so they were like the tier one trained version of cops in afghanistan do you have any more of those patches the triple four yeah i don't i don't we've been looking for some because i've lost this hat two or three times now and flipped out about it and you found it found it yeah but i need to find some backup patches so if i find one i got you well i'll tell you what i don't know if you looked around in here but it's like a museum and a lot of guests i'm dumbfounded honestly uh like i thought i had a collection of some pretty cool shit it's all stuff from guests this is amazing so uh you know if you ever do decide depart from that i'd be honored to frame that, put it in the studio. And, yeah, this is like a museum, but I'm not asking.
And, hey, what is the – we got busy down there with the photos. What's that A10 barrel you brought in? So, you know, I've got a nonprofit called We Fight Monsters, and a guy that we did a lot of stuff in the Afghan evac with, General David Hicks, he's got something like 3,600 hours in an A-10, and he gave me that barrel.
If I remember correctly from his Kandahar deployment, it's shot out, which I think that was the most violent deployment he had, so it's ended some lives. Wow.
Yeah. Wow.
So that is one of, I think, seven, they got seven barrels, right? The GAU-8 the gau8 i don't know i'm not an a10 pilot it's from the big all canyon so when you call in cast that's what is shooting you'll have to connect me with him i'll do i'll interview him you need to and then that's going to get framed and put over the uh put in the new studio we're building a new studio so oh yeah we brought you a too. We made it.
Seriously? Yeah. So it's down there in a box next to that barrel.
We opened up a wood shop in Memphis to teach homeless vets woodworking and gang members and anybody else coming off the streets. And so they made you a humidor out of black walnut and curly maple that was grown or felled and milled in Memphis.
Man, thank you. It's pretty cool.

That'll look good in here too.

Yes, it will.

But, well, Ben, we got a lot to talk about today,

and I'm expecting this.

Well, I shouldn't say I'm expecting,

but I got a feeling that this is going to be

a very heavy, heartfelt interview,

and I'm really excited to dive in here.

I am too. Everybody starts with a introduction.
So Ben Owen, you're an infantry veteran, a father of eight children, a graduate of the University of Alabama and an American patriot. From Fortune 500 companies to startups, you've excelled in leadership strategy, raising brand awareness and sales.
When you're not working your day job at Black Rifle Co., not coffee, you spend time in the North Georgia mountains with your kids. You're an experienced expert on data intelligence and digital media.
You founded Flanders Fields and We Fight Monsters with your wife, Jess, and are dedicated to combating opiate and fentanyl addiction and sex trafficking in the Mid-South. You're a recovering addict with a temetuous past, including drug arrests and homelessness.
You've transformed your struggles into a force for good by leveraging experiences from running safe houses during the Afghanistan evacuation to establishing sober living homes in the U.S. by converting dope houses into recovery spaces.
You work alongside agencies and street gangs to embody hope and recovery, turning your once perilous path into lifelines for others.

You're a busy man.

You're doing heavy lifting in some of the most tough neighborhoods in America.

And once again, man, it really is truly an honor to have you here.

I'm really excited about this.

It's been a long time coming.

And so let's get started.

Let's do it.

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Oh, my God. We'll send you some more when we get restocked.
And then secondly, we have a Patreon account. Patreon, there are top supporters.
It's a subscription account that our viewers and listeners can join. And we've really built quite the community there.
And so a lot of these guys and ladies have been with me since the very beginning. And we started this in the attic, moved to this.
Now we're building a studio that's three and a half times bigger than this. in the woods and um like with all the equipment

upgrades and everything that we've been able to do i credit patreon because that's that's who has been here the whole time and so one of the things i do is i allow them to uh i give them the opportunity to ask each and every guest a question and so this is from eric alger the second half of basketball season is here

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Ben, your transition from Army veteran to founder of We Fight Monsters is both inspiring and profound. Many veterans struggle to find purpose after service, but you've channeled your warrior spirit into fighting one of society's darkest battles, human and narcotics trafficking.
Can you take us back to the moment when you knew this was your mission? What was the turning point that made you and Jessica commit your lives to transform former drug houses into recovery homes and safe havens? So I think there were really two pivotal moments, and one of them actually goes back into active addiction, and we'll get into this much deeper later. But my last six months out there, I did not want that life.
I had been tired of it, and I had two options. I was going to get sober, I was going to die, and I didn't want to die.
And Jess and I used to pray a foxhole prayer multiple times a day. And it went something along the lines of God, get us out of hell together and we'll come back for everybody left behind.
So in 2019, he did get us out of hell together. Eventually, I left first.
But later that year, we were a few months sober at the time, and my best friend overdosed and died. And we hadn't yet been called back to Memphis to keep our end of that promise, but we did go back to Memphis to bury him.
He had no family left, so we raised money using my social media presence to cremate him and have a service. And we gave the overage because we raised like four times what it actually cost.
We gave the overage to the Shelby County Drug Court. And something happened in our brains at that point in time.
We realized that we can use social media to get some cool stuff done. And it felt really good to be able to help people that are still out there struggling with the demon that we had escaped.
And then, of course, as that progressed, we did get called back to Memphis to save the ones we left behind. And once we started that, dude, he mentioned purpose in the very beginning of that.
And that's what it comes down to, is I found my purpose. I found my calling.
I found the reason God put me on this earth. And I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that what we're doing today is what God wants me to do for the rest of my life.
And so I hope that answers the question. Yeah, yeah.
Wow. Wow.
Thank you. All right.
So now we get into the weeds here. So I want to do a life story on you, talk about childhood all the way up to what you're doing nowadays, all the pitfalls and the dark times.
I mean, that's kind of, that's my specialty here, you know. And so where did you grow up? Man, that's not really an easy answer that I've lived in 14 states.
I lived in three states in first grade alone. I lived in three states again in ninth grade.
So I was born not far from here, actually, in Nashville. My dad was stationed in Fort Campbell.
He was, I think, a first lieutenant, first 506 back then.

And I was a real high-risk pregnancy, so when mom went into labor, they rushed her down to Nashville. I was born here.
But we left before I was even three months old. I think Virginia next.
And then Fort Benning.

My little brother was born there.

And we lived, I think, in Phoenix City, Alabama, just across the Chattahoochee from Fort Benning.

We may have lived in Columbus.

And then Dad left the Army not too long after my little brother was born.

Went to Pfizer Pharmaceuticals as a sales rep back in Lake. Hold on.
Yep. We're moving too fast.
How many brothers and sisters did you have? Just one. Just one? One.
Are you guys close? We're not not close. But, you know, Cody has an awful lot of very well-founded resentment towards me for everything I did over the years, demanding all of my parents' attention because I was such a pain in the ass.
And I think I probably, in a lot of ways, crushed his hopes and dreams for his life. Now, he does a great job of hiding that resentment, but it's still there, you know.
So, yeah, me and my brother are close. I love him.
He's my little brother. But even though he lives, you know, 20 minutes up the street from me, we don't see each other, like, every day or anything like that.
Man. It's a lot better now that I'm clean.
You know, the longer I've been clean, the more he believes this time is real. How long have you been clean? A little over five years.

I've been off the streets for,

we're closing on six years now.

I had a couple alcohol relapses that first year.

So my actual sober date is October 4th of 2019.

No kidding.

Yeah, not a drop of alcohol, no dope, nothing.

Wow.

I kick booze. It'll be three years in this Valentine's Day.
Oh, shit. Oh, yeah, man.
I've lost my life. I didn't know that about you.
Thank you. Yeah, I've kicked a lot of addictions, too.
Cocaine, benzos, opiates. I had no idea.
Yeah, yeah. So you get it.
Oh, yeah. I get it.
And then booze was the last one. Yeah, I was looking at the relapse that ended with the rest of my story.
I actually started with Dallmore. No kidding.
I was a big Scotch fan. I was just an alcoholic for a long time.
Really? Until the dope entered the picture. Yeah, me too.
Then I moved to Columbia, and that's when the cocaine was dead. God, I'd be dead.
I almost did die. A couple times.
Yeah, me too. Cocaine was involved.
So, I'm curious. I get a lot of flack about having a bar in here because we talk a lot about sobriety.
If you watched any of the interviews, you'll see that a lot of the guys that I bring on struggle with that and then kicked it. But does that bother you? Not in the least, dude.
Yeah. I mean, it never has, really.
You're exposed to alcohol everywhere you go. That's the way I feel.
It's's everywhere and if you can't be comfortable sitting this close to your favorite single malt scotch in the world you get a problem yeah you know i feel like it's empowering i do too have it sitting right there completely and be able to overcome it yeah and man i know this interview isn't about me but i got there's just some things i want to share because I think I'll relate to you a lot. When I kicked cocaine, I kept my last dime bag for years.
That's next level. To overpower it.
I kept it in a drawer. And I even moved here with it.
Wow. I kicked cocaine in Florida, finally.
and I even moved here with it. I kicked cocaine in Florida, finally.
And I had a bunch of bags, but I kept one of them. And I would look at it every day for.
Like, wake up, hold it, look at that dime bag of Coke. And it just, like, for me, it was like, I'm going to fucking beat you today again.
And when we moved, I brought it up here with me. And then I eventually, like, you know what I wanted to do was I wanted to frame it.
And I'm serious. I wanted to frame it and put it in the studio.
I get that. To show, like, there it is.
That's the last thing. I beat that motherfucker.
Yep. I guess I actually can relate to that more than I thought I could when you first said it, because I used to do that with heroin.
When I was trying to quit, I would keep a little bit knowing it's there. It's there.
If the withdrawals get to be too much, if today gets to be too much, it's there. I can do it.
The problem, of course, was that I always did it. So I do get that.
Yeah. Well, back to childhood.
What kind of stuff were you into as a kid? Dude, I had the most idyllic childhood ever from my perspective and outside looking in. I did Boy Scouts.
I tried to play sports to impress my dad, but I sucked at all of them. I was really good at being an outdoors kid, hunting, fishing, or orienteering, as we called it, and scouts.
I did scouts. My dad was our scoutmaster until we moved to California, and scouts got weird out there, so we stopped.
But I was almost eagle, whatever it was, star or life, right? I believe eagle scout. I loved anything and everything outdoors.
I loved, you know, going on bike rides, mountain biking, catching animals. That was my obsession for a long time was reptiles, venomous snakes, alligators, literally catching alligators.
Are you serious? Oh, hell yeah. How old were you when you were catching alligators? I think the last one I caught, I was 18 or 19.
When did it start? How young? Probably 11 or 12. These were big alligators.
I mean, they're little, you know. We lived in Jackson, Mississippi for seven years.
That was the longest stretch in childhood I ever lived in one place. It was Rankin County, Mississippi, outside of Jackson, on this big lake, man-made lake called the Ross Barnett Reservoir, and it was full of alligators and water moccasins.
It was the greatest place ever for a little boy to live. We moved there when I was seven.
How would you catch them? Net. I'd use a net and babies.
I wasn't doing a crocodile hunter and jumping on the tower. Did you ever have a mom come after you? Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah. But the funny thing is, my mom would get a bat for me with the neighborhood moms because i was i mean an alligator oh no so one time i did almost get eaten by a big old female um they'll build these mounds of like uh i say i almost got eaten alligators aren't really that aggressive but it scared the shit out of me they'll build a big old mound of vegetation and they use that to incubate their eggs i guess well we found one and we were stomping through it trying to find babies, you know, and the whole thing starts vibrating.
We're like, what the hell is going on? And out shoots this 10, 11 foot long, full grown alligator that was, I guess, had buried itself in this mound. We thought it was a nest.
It was not a nest. It was, there was an actual giant alligator in the middle of it.
And we fell over, we're in the swamp. And yeah, I thought I was going to die.
Holy shit. I don't know if I ever tell my mom that story.
I remember my buddy Bo Goodson was with me when it happened. And we thought we were dead.
We thought we were dead. I'll bet.
So were you tight with your brother back then? We were very different as kids. Cody wanted to be an actor.
He wanted to play basketball. He was actually decent at sports.
And I was just wanting to play outside. So yeah, we hung out all the time.
I mean, we fought like big brothers and little brothers do, but nobody else is going to fuck with my little brother. I always stood up for him.
So yeah, we were close growing up until we moved to California. That's when things went sideways.
How old were you when you went to California?

I moved there when I was 14.

And so I was in Jackson, Mississippi from age 7 to 14.

And, I mean, I'd already lived in, I don't even know how many states prior to that.

So I had no stability.

I was constantly moving, constantly being the new kid, constantly reinventing myself,

you know, learning how to make new friends.

And so I got really used to that.

And I was actually pretty good at it.

I still am.

But that seven-year stretch of being in one place, like I built a life.

And, you know, that was half my life at that point I had spent there.

And so when we moved from Jackson to Orange County, California, yeah, I snapped. I just lost it.
I've always been an anxious person, especially today. Like more so than usual, who I am today, I'm a very anxious, stressed out person.
Back then, I think is when it really came to a head. I had discovered that girls are animals too.
And so my obsession switched from catching reptiles to females. And I had a girlfriend that I'd been allowed to spend way too much time with for a 14-year-old.
I don't know how I convinced my parents to let me do this. Lost my virginity and everything.
And when we moved, I was just like, that was the end of the world to me. You know, nothing was ever going to be the same again.
It was all the, you know, listening to Smashing Pumpkins and Nine Inch Nails and the world's going to fucking end because I lost my girlfriend and she's in Mississippi and I'm in California. And I just, I went nuts, dude.
I went completely nuts. How so? You name it.
Like, I went from, I was a straight-A student my entire life until I moved to California. Not just straight-A student.
I mean, I was like an absolute nerd. I was writing letters back and forth to the president of Harvard from like 10 years old on forward.
I wanted to be a cardiovascular surgeon. Uh, I had led a clinical study at the University of Mississippi at 13 years old that ended up getting published in the journal neurology.
Like I was an absolute nerd. All right.
Goody two shoes, never got in trouble. Didn't give my parents any problems whatsoever.
Within a month of moving to California, I'm still an alcoholic, getting drunk, tried meth, tried Coke, shrooms. At 14? 14, yeah.
Yeah, I actually spent my 15th birthday locked up against my will in California. And that's when things really started going downhill.
So, you know, they caught me with weed. I don't remember how it actually happened, but.
And I never liked weed. But it was just my way of acting out I would have it, you know.
And I got caught. And so they flipped out like it was, you know, heroin that I was on.
Because my parents are very, what's the word I'm looking for? Strict. Very strict, straight and narrow kind of people, you know, like never done drugs, none of that.
And so they flipped the absolute hell out and sent me to rehab for weed when I'm 14 years old. Well, I get in there and they make me talk just like hiat, I tryst.
And I realize, like, I can just get dope in here. Because I wanted to change the way I felt.
That was the crux of everything. I did not like the way I felt, and I wanted to do anything I could to change it.
I'd been drinking extremely heavily. I'd been caught stealing alcohol.
I was taking open containers of alcohol to school, to high school, ninth grade with me. and the teachers there wouldn't do shit.
They were afraid of the students. The students literally ran that school.
So I started talking to the psychiatrist at this rehab place, and remember, I was a nerd. I'd read the DSM.
It was the DSM-IV back then, front to back. I don't even know how many times.
What's that, I think it stands for Diagnostics and Statistics Manual. It tells doctors how to diagnose diseases, including mental health, or particularly mental health.
You read that at what age? I think the first time I heard it, I was 12. Like, whenever the DSM-IV came out, I was reading it.
Because I wanted to impress my dad. My whole life was spent trying to become my dad, or to please him, or make.
And this is not any fault of his. He was not an overbearing father.
I had perfect parents growing up. This was just, I internalized in my mind that my life only had validity if my dad was proud of me, which he always was.
So I started reading the DSM-IV because he was selling to doctors. I think he was a regional manager with Pfizer by this point in time.

And he had a tremendous level of respect for docs.

And so I wanted to become a doctor.

And so I'd read this thing front to back, memorized the whole damn thing.

I'm going to caveat this.

I've killed a lot of brain cells since then.

So I'm not that smart anymore, but I used to be.

I had near photographic memories.

So anyway, I go to the – remember I told you I got weaponized ADHD. I go, and that is real.
I go to the psychiatrist, and I present myself as a textbook case of somebody with bipolar disorder. I'm not bipolar, but they went ahead and diagnosed me.
They did diagnose the ADHD, which is real, and they put me on Ritalin. And since I had read this manual and knew the things to say, I went back and kept going back to this doc at the rehab facility.
While in a drug rehab, I have gotten a doctor to prescribe me 120 milligrams of methylphenidate a day, Ritalin, which is like super therapeutic, like way beyond what any kid should ever be on. Needless to say, that created a lot of anxiety and paranoia and other symptoms.
And so now they're treating me for those symptoms. So they've got me on Xanax, Valium.
I didn't even realize it back then, but I'm dependent on all of this shit. And life at home had become pure hell because, you know, I'm trying to get out of this rehab.
And every time they let me go home, I do something crazy, like drink a bottle of rubbing alcohol and wake up in an ER with a catheter and don't remember shit. Like, I don't know how any of it happened.
And so when I said my little brother has a lot of resentment, it's like, that's why this started. And I'm taking all of my parents' attention from and it was his dream come true to move to southern california because he wanted to be an actor so he's in acting classes my parents are having to go pick me up out of gutters or have the police pick me up because i've run from the rehab facility like it was just uh and it came out of nowhere my poor parents you know just literally overnight this happened how would you get the booze? Steal it.
You'd steal it? I didn't give a fuck. And that's like the craziest part about this is I'm not a thief.
Even during my addiction, I was making the money. I was blowing on dope.
But at 14, 15, I just did not care. I did not.
I wanted to get in trouble. I wanted somebody to catch me.
Man, we got a lot of parallels already. Same here.
I didn't go to rehab, and I didn't get into drugs, but I got into alcohol, I think, seventh or eighth grade. Yeah, same here.
Moved around all over the place. The longest time I've ever spent somewhere is seven years.
Oh, wow. So, yeah, you get all of them.
Until now. Until now.
How long have you been here? seven years ago. But yeah, we used to,

I used to find bums and pick them up and have them go buy the booze for me. I've done that.
Yeah. Yeah.
Real smart as a kid without a driver's license. But, wow.
You had mentioned, I want to retrace a couple things here.

You had mentioned Boy Scouts got weird in California.

Yeah.

What was weird?

My dad was always our Scoutmaster growing up, and so we moved to California.

He got us back in Scouts, and I've been through little bitty Tiger Cub all the way up. know the whole thing dad's an eagle scout order the arrow ranger qualified you know super who a guy and uh so he puts us right back in scouts we get out there and we have our our first uh camp out and when we get to this place where we're camping they round all of us up this is this was like right before i went nuts so i haven't gone nuts I'm still dealing with the anxiety and mental health stuff, but I haven't started doing the drinking and all that.
But that was like two weeks later. We get to the first camp out, and they round everybody up, and the scoutmaster, because dad's the assistant, because he's the new guy, says something to the effect of him.
And remember, campers, no scoutmasters in tents with boys and no sharing sleeping bags this time. And my dad looked at me and my brother was like, get in the fucking car.

We're going home.

That was the end of that.

Holy shit.

Yeah, it was very odd.

Very odd.

But you didn't have any, nothing happened to you? Oh, God, no.

No, he got us the hell out of there.

We never went back.

Right on.

Never went back.

Yeah, I was also diagnosed ADHD, Ritalin, Adderall, in fourth grade. Damn.
Yeah, fourth grade. Yeah, Ritalin fucked me up.
I really think it did, like, permanent damage to it. That's where the anxiety started really bad for me was with the Ritalin.
Of course, it's my own fault. I manipulated a doctor into giving me, like, three times what anybody my size should have been on.
But I have a repeating pattern of doing that, manipulating circumstances, and end up fucking myself in the end. Yeah.
So it sounds like you were like a prodigy. I was.
My parents, I think, honestly believed I was going to go into cure cancer aid AIDS someday. You know? And like that clinical trial that I led, the methods we came up with and that are being used to this day to diagnose things like Parkinson's and stuff.
Are you serious? Yeah. And you did this at 13? 13, 14, you know, with a neurologist at the University of Mississippi.
I took first place in the Mississippi State Science Fair that year. How did you get – let's go through that.
How did you get in touch with a doc at Harvard? My dad. Oh, at Harvard.
I just wrote him a letter, dude. I wrote the president of Harvard a letter when I was 10 and said I wanted to be a cardiovascular surgeon.
He wrote me back and was like, that's awesome. It's too early to decide what kind you want to be, but keep writing me and let's stay in touch.
So I had an open line of comms with the president of Harvard at 10. I did the Duke tip thing where you take the SAT in eighth grade and scored like a 1380 or 1400 or something.
I was a very smart kid. Wow.
And I've definitely spit in God's face with the amount of brain cells I killed. But it is what it is, you know? But yeah, so my parents, like, I feel horrendous for them to this day.
If I try to put myself in their shoes now as a parent and I have kids that age, I have kids much older than that already. I don't know how my dad kept his job.
I really don't. I don't know how he stayed sane because on top of that, he's dealing with my mom's physical health.

She's got a slew of autoimmune problems.

Like, I was just a really selfish little bastard, man.

I don't understand how they kept me.

I'd have been investigating ways to give up custody of this kid to the state somehow, you know, looking back on what I put them through.

Because it really did come out of nowhere.

There was no lead up to this.

It was just, bam, Ben's insane.

Damn.

So I'm at this rehab place in California, and I have-

Hold on, hold on.

Let's go back.

Okay.

I want to talk about the medical, the paper that you wrote.

Oh, yeah.

So we had this, I was reading, I don't't remember one of my dad's medical journals uh like jammer or whatever it was and read up on this uh phenomenon called the subcutaneous silent period now i remember i've killed a lot of brain cells and this is 30 years ago so i don't remember all of it but basically it is a silent period in your synapse, in your nerve conduction. When you touch a painful stimuli, your nerves actually go blank for a second.
The signals to your muscle, telling your muscles to contract. And what that is, it's before your brain can even process, I'm in pain, your nerves have told your hand to let go.
So if you've ever reacted to something quicker than your brain, you can actually process what's happening. That's basically why it happens.
Well, I theorized that if this is true, that in instances of diseases like a myotrophic lateral sclerosis or Parkinson's or maybe Alzheimer's, anything that affects cognitive function or nerves, there might be a delay in that. And well, we found out that was true, that there was a delay.
And so that was, it's been tons of research have been done since on this. Like it's a whole field and I doubt I'm the first person that thought of it, but I definitely did my own study and it definitely made it into the general neurology.
My dad connected me with this neurologist. I forget what drugs dad was selling for Pfizer at the time, but he knew the neurologist at the University of Mississippi.
And this is back before the Pharma Act passed, I think, which means the Pharma Act is because drug companies were essentially paying doctors to write their drugs. And so this is back when you could still give docs tons of money.
And so I'm sure there was some grant involved. He's like, help my kid do this idea.
So he got me access to all these machines, electroencephalographs and stimulus. And I don't even know what they're all called, but I got to shock my mom.
Like she was one of my test subjects. I had a couple of the Nero interns up there that were my test subjects.
I mean, it was really cool. I had a great life ahead of me and just for no reason at all

decided to piss away. Damn.
I mean, what was your parents' reaction when you get published at 13? So it didn't actually get published until I was 14, maybe 15, and I was in custody in Utah when that happened. Are you serious? That's how quick it happened.
How'd you find out that it got published? I think they sent it to me. There's a Netflix special out right now about these facilities in Utah.
That's how bad they were. You know, these wilderness camps in

Provo Mountain. I think Paris Hilton went to

one of them. Of course,

we didn't know back then how bad they were.

What do you mean?

They, like, beat the hell out of kids. The one I was at

got shut down for breaking some kid's arm.

There were, like, sexual assaults

that happened at some of them.

What happened to you?

So, actually, at that one, the one in Utah, nothing. The one in California, that's not quite true.
I kept running away. I don't want to be there.
I'd run away. I'd go steal some alcohol, and eventually the cops would find me.
One time, my mom found me passed out in the middle of an intersection, a very busy intersection in Rancho San Margarita. Eventually, they got tired of me running and kind of upped their game on keeping me inside.
And memory's a little fuzzy on this, but somehow I ended up barricaded in a room with three female clients, and they got real pissed about that. And when they got in the room, they got me out and put me in a five-point restraint room like 14 years old, and three grown-ass men beat the shit out of me.

I mean, beat the ever-loving hell out of me.

And at the time, I felt like I deserved it.

What did they beat you with?

Just open hands, slapping the shit out of me.

I don't remember any objects or fists, but they beat the shit out of me. And I i'm restrained i'm in a five-point restraint you know i can't even lift my head um so that sucked uh and it definitely gave me uh what's the word i'm looking for here i had some severe trauma associated with rehab and you can see how that might play into some problems later on in my life, in my story.
The end result of that was that they shipped me off to a residential treatment facility in Utah for 18 months. Part of the reason I do what I do is for my family.
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And I, of course, being the outdoors kid that I was, I still had the love of all those things. They sent me to fucking paradise in my mind if I could just get outside the fence.
You know, there's like all sorts of reptiles and critters I want to go catch. It was outside of Ogden, Utah, so near Great Salt Lake.
And I was definitely going to run. I mean, I knew how to survive out in the desert, and that was what I, in my mind, that's what I was going to do.

But the day I got there, I saw a track star that I had known from school in California who was also sent out there to try to run.

And keep in mind, I can't run for shit.

Like, I'm not a runner.

And three giant Mormon dudes tackled his ass, and they shot him so full of Thorazine, he didn't come out of the room.

They put him in for like a week.

So I was like, I'm not going to run from this one.

And so I got to work manipulating my circumstances again.

I convinced another doctor that I was very, very bipolar and just needed to be medicated.

And then when they did that, I checked all the boxes and did all the stuff and ended up graduating from that place in nine months wow but i was being medicated for a whole bunch of shit that wasn't even wrong with me which presents all sorts of new problems my judgment was fucked um obviously destroyed my brother's dreams of finishing acting school out there. My dad had to take a demotion with Pfizer to get us out of there, to get us out of California.
He moved us back to Alabama. I think I was, I think I turned 16 right after they got me out.
And so I'd been out front of my parents' roof for like a year at this point. My brother didn't really even speak to me.
I do remember the day that I drank that bottle of rubbing alcohol. I guess the plan to send me to Utah was already in place because the last thing I remember before I passed out and then woke up in the hospital is my little brother going, hey, Ben, you ever been to Utah? So he's always been a little smartass.
Jeez. Yeah.
But. So what happened when you got out of there? Well, we moved to Alabama.
And it was weird. How old were you at this point? 16.
Right about to turn 16. I may have turned 16.
I don't quite remember. You remember I mentioned the kid that stepped on an alligator with me, Bo Goodson? That was in Mississippi.
We moved to Hoover, Alabama, and my first day at school, I ran into fucking Bo Goodson. The dudes, like, they had moved and we just ended up at the same high school together,

which almost

fucked me up really bad. He gave

me a bunch of Adderall that day.

Keep in mind, I haven't touched any dope in a year

because I've been locked up.

And I ended up throwing it away.

Thank God, because when I got home from school that day,

my mom's like, let me see your wallet. And that's where it had it.

She just had a feeling. Mom gut

instinct.

Yeah. So for the rest of high school, I was pretty good.
Dad got offered a promotion back to regional manager that would have required him to move to North Georgia. And he took it.
And me being the petulant little unappreciative child that I was, reminded him he promised me he wouldn't move me again and told him I wasn't going. Now, if my 16-year-old had said that to me, I don't know how I would react, but it wouldn't be the way my dad did.
I don't know how it played out. I ended up in with my aunt and uncle.
They didn't make me move to Georgia with them. If I'm being honest, dude, they were probably just sick of me,

my parents. They loved me, but they were probably really tired of me.
I couldn't have managed me.

So they let me move in with Aunt Sandy and Uncle Danny.

And so that was my junior year.

The summer between junior and senior year, I went and spent in Georgia at my parents.

And then went back.

And somehow, at the end of that summer, my mom and my aunt got into a pissing match about something.

I think maybe it was about my girlfriend.

And the end result was I got my own apartment for my senior year.

I don't know.

I didn't question it.

Right.

But I actually did everything I was supposed to do.

I would have graduated with honors. And, I mean, I guess on paper I did.

But I didn't get to walk at graduation because the month before I ended up, I got caught with how I call it school.

But, you know, I graduated with honors.

I got a scholarship to Auburn, math scholarship.

And I had no desire to get a math degree.

Damn, so through all that, you still graduated with honors and got a full ride scholarship.

Yeah.

Well, I hadn't killed all the brain cells yet.

That was still to come.

So I get to Auburn.

And remember, I'd stayed sober.

I did get caught with alcohol at school, but that was the only time I drank.

It was like I got caught the one time I did it.

That may not be true.

I feel like it is, but it might not be. I don't remember't remember but once i got to auburn man the brakes came off it was over with getting drunk as every day um i got so bad i was i was this is back in you know 2000 and if you go get apple juice at the store they weren bottles.
They were still glass bottles. I would pour it out and fill them with beer to take the class with me.
That's how bad I got that fast. I was drinking, you know, two cases a day.
I got a job at Auburn that I was trying to work and trying to do classes. I started ROTC.
Again, just trying to be like my dad. You know, he did ROTC at Auburn.
And so I sucked at PT. Like, I hate running.
I was in terrible shape because I was drinking constantly. And the drinking just kept escalating.
Like, I was getting really close to drinking myself out of college. Like, guidance counselors had called me in.
And so my mom or my aunt, one, was like, well, he needs to go meet with the students with disabilities or whatever. Because I was diagnosed bipolar and I'm still being medicated for it.
So I did that. And they basically greenlit me to misbehave all I fucking wanted.
And they have to make reasonable accommodations for me. It was a disaster.
I was such a manipulative little shit. Just anything I could get that gave me an excuse to do what I wanted, I was going to grab onto that and not let go, you know?

Were you drinking for the party?

Were you just drinking at home alone? I was just drinking if I was awake.

Literally started when I woke up because I'd get sick if I didn't.

I didn't realize it back then.

I was already physically dependent on alcohol.

Wow.

And, you know, like growing up, my parents drank. Neither one of them had a problem.
I knew both of my mom's parents died alcoholics. But it was never really beat into my head the way it should have been that I was playing with a loaded gun.
And, I mean, it definitely got me early. You know, like I was, and I wasn't even old enough to buy alcohol.

That was the crazy part.

You mentioned having homeless people go buy beer for you.

I definitely did that.

I was never without beer.

And it was just beer back then.

I didn't do a whole lot of drugs at Auburn

other than recreationally.

That was back when ecstasy was still X.

Whatever it is now is not.

But making terrible decisions. I ended up getting a girl who was in her mid-20s pregnant.
And my mom convinced her to get an abortion, which fucked me up pretty good.

I don't know that I've ever told that story publicly.

You wanted to have it?

No, but I didn't want to kill it either.

If I'm being honest, this girl was on so much dope, though,

the chances of that baby making it were very slim anyway.

She was heavy, heavy into all the drugs.

I was just drinking.

How'd you meet her?

I met her at a cigar shop in downtown Auburn.

Like a six-foot-tall redhead, and we liked the same music,

and it just goes off to the races from there.

How did your mom convince her?

Do you know?

I don't.

I don't know.

I was so drunk during that time period.

This is like probably middle of 2001.

But of course, since that fucked me up, it just gave me another excuse to drink.

Did you go with her? I don't remember. You don't remember? I don't remember.
I had a lot of blackouts. When did it dawn on you? I guess I did go with her.
My mom came, too. because I remember being in the parking lot.
I didn't go inside. My mom went inside with her.
My mom went inside with her. And I just went back.
And I mean, that was the end of me and her um she's a fucking psychopath uh like ruptured one of my eardrums beating hell out of me one time like she was just nuts

just nuts I have a penchant for crazy women I think uh that was a rough summer though um

so it dawned on you in the parking lot what was happening? I mean, I knew what was happening, but, like, the totality of it hit me. I went back home and drank myself into oblivion, and she packed her shit and left, and that was the last time I ever talked to her.
Does it still bother you? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love children.
I love them. You know, I didn't tend to ever do anything to harm one.
I drank at that problem for 20 years after that. Damn.
Yeah. Damn.
I mean, that's kind of guilt I can't overcome, and I've accepted. I've come to terms with what happened.
But not to get into a political conversation like abortion always turns into, but I killed my child. That's how I look at it.
And that's hard. That's hard.
That's hard to cope with. I mean, I know you're not, I know you said it still bothers you, but I mean, there's a lot of kids, you know, that are doing, there's a lot of women that have done that.
Yeah. That probably feel a sense of regret.
What would your advice be? Man, consider adoption. Consider adoption.
Somebody out there will love that baby. Somebody will.
I promise you that. I adopted one of mine.
You know, I've got eight. Only seven of them are actually biologically mine.

I do understand circumstances,

and I do understand that that's a decision some people feel they don't have a choice but to make.

I would, if I had it to do over again,

I don't know that I would have chosen something different, though,

just because of how everything was and how everything is today. I don't know.
I don't know. That's a tough one, man.
That's a tough one. How fast did that decision happen? Very quickly.
Like, within a week of finding out she was pregnant. You told your parents? Yes.
Yes, I did. I told my mom.
That's how that happened. And I was scared to death because, I mean, even though I was in ROTC, like I was still dependent on my parents a lot of money, you know.
I had lost the scholarship because to keep the scholarship, I had to be a math major. And I did not want to major in math.
I'm good at math. I love math.
It's fun. I like it because there's a clear answer to something.
You know, it's very definitive. But I didn't want to work a job in that.
So, I didn't have a scholarship. So, ROTC was like, that was, you know, I don't have to have my parents pay my bills.
They're going to pay it. But I was actually wavered into ROTC because when i was right before we left mississippi i tore

my acl playing football and never got it fixed so it was it was just a whole giant show and it all

went back to me trying to manipulate my circumstances how did your i mean how did your mom react

when you told her shock and and disbelief. Shock and disbelief.
But at the same time, I don't think it surprised her. And if you just listened to the last half hour of my story, I don't think it surprised anybody else.
It was not exactly known for making good decisions, and most of the bad decisions I made revolved around alcohol and women at that point in time. So it was bound to happen sooner or later.
How old were you? 19. 19 years old.
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That's 866-781-8900 or go to AmericanFinancing.net slash SRS. All right, Ben, we're back from the break.
All right. Just got through some heavy stuff.
Sounds like you were right about at, I think you lost your scholarship. Yeah, I no longer had a scholarship.
And I was working, still dependent on my parents. I had a job at a service center.
I drove a 67 Camaro back then. I've

always loved old cars. And so I got a job at a Carey Service Center in Oak Lake, Alabama.
And it was the morning of September 11th of 2001. I woke up puking up blood.
I had drank a hole in my esophagus.

I was about to fail out of class a month into the semester, and I knew it.

I had been in ROTC.

This was my second year.

And was not good at it.

Was not good at getting up early because I was always hungover.

I was terrible at PT because I'm not good at running. I don't have any ACL.
And anyway, I'm changing an alternator on a 73 Impala. No, 73 Monte Carlo at Carey Service Center.
And I walk into the break room to get a Dr. Prepper because I cannot stop throwing up blood and I just need something to calm my stomach down and carbonation has a weird way of doing that and i look at the tv and i see

the second plane hit the tower my dad's in new york when this happens um and it's like the world

just stopped everything stopped um uh we found that dad was okay, and I walked across the street to a recruiter and told him I just want to go ahead and enlist. It was a terrible idea.
I'm in no shape to join the Army, right? On 9-11. On 9-11 um you want to enlist well well i went to talk to a recruiter because i didn't know legally how that worked i'm in rotc in college right now um i'm wavered for a torn acl um and so i wanted to find out what what it would look like if i enlisted and of course the, the place, you know, the next day was everybody went to go enlist.
And so they scheduled me for an ASVAB, and I just decided I'm rebranding myself. Ben is no longer a college student.
You know, I was, I think, a mechanical or maybe chemical engineering major at the time. I'd changed so many times.
I'm going to to list. I'm going to go to the Army.
And so they scheduled me for NASVAB. I got a 99 on it.
Still had most of my brain cells, thank God. And I was an engineering student, so all the math and stuff on it was super familiar to me.
They found me a slot for 97 Bravo, counterintelligence. It sounded super cool.
I was going to go spend, I think, 17 weeks in Fort Huachuca, Arizona. I was going to get a security clearance.
I was going to get a $20,000 sign-in bonus. And so, you know, I let my parents know, and the process drags out a little bit.
It's a few months that go by and i go down to maxwell air force base to do meps the first time and i'm there and i meet this little brunette from dustin florida and get fucking trashed right and we hook up and uh i show up to to do meps the next still drunk, still drunk. And my whole life, my dad, I think, carried a chip on his shoulder that he was Ranger qualified, an infantry officer, never deployed because he served during the Carter years.
I wouldn't say a chip on his shoulder. It was a regret he had.
He always wanted to go do cool guy stuff. And I didn't want that to happen.
And I fully believe that war was going to be over six weeks. Which, you know, in hindsight, looking at it now, like, holy God, I was dumb, right? That was America's longest war and we just walked away from it.
But at the time I was convinced that if I didn't do something fast, I was going to miss out on everything. And my only shot at impressing my dad after all these fuck ups that I've got.
This is how I can finally redeem myself in my parents' eyes. And I want to be abundantly clear, this is not something my parents put on me.
They never made me feel like I was a disappointment. You know, they never made me feel like I had anything to prove.
I put all of this weight on myself that I had to please my parents and the only way I could do that is to become just like my dad i held this man on a pedestal my whole life i think a lot of little boys do that you know but i maybe took it to an extreme well anyway i'm telling uh you know we go through the duck walk the dude looks at your butthole you go check your feet you know all this shit you do at meps and i get to that last little room where I'm picking my MOS, and I'm telling him about my dad. And he's like, well, you know, there's an infantry slot open.
And my dumb ass goes, yeah, do that, do that. And so I'm listed as an 11 Bravo.
And that, you know, hindsight, I hate running.

Yet again, I'm doing something that I'm not going to be good at

or capable of trying to impress my dad.

You know, I can relate to you on this too.

The only reason I made it through buds and became a seal is because

i wanted to impress my dad and he never did anything like that ever but what what is it i mean do you think it's the being the oldest child like you feel that that pressure that you always need to impress your parents i've always put an inordinate amount of pressure on myself to perform always

today

I'm doing that right now

actually

like the lead up to this

you can ask Jess, I was terrified to come in here. I always have just put a tremendous amount of pressure on myself.
I think a lot of that is because I'm the oldest, but it's also because I had so much promise as a kid. I had so much promise.

And my parents were so proud of me. And they stopped looking at me like that.
You know? And you wanted it back. I wanted it back.
I didn't want to be a piece of shit drunk, but I knew that's what I was. And not just a piece of shit drunk, but like one that put his mother in a position to have to kill her own grandchild.
And that just ate me alive. And I would drink at that problem nonstop, you know, all the way up to the time I swore in like so i picked 11 bravo spot and uh looking back here's here's where it gets this is how retarded it was i was on mental health medication then i had no acl so when i got to meps i lied about literally all of it no i've never done drugs.
No, I've never been in drug rehab. No, I've never broken a bond.
Dude, I've broken like nine, literally nine bonds and torn two ligaments at that point in time. I'm a raging alcoholic, and I'm just at MEPS, drunk, telling them, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, because they'd coached me.
My recruiter had done his job. Now, he'd done his job to get me that 97 Bravo spot that would have got me a sign bonus.
And I probably would have done just fine if I had taken that slot. But me, being me, I had to manipulate everything and try to finagle my way in.
Because when we looked at the beginning, he's like, well, I don't have any infantry spots. I forget what the deal was.
So I decided to buck the plan again. Sorry, you were asking.
No, I mean, I was going to say, I mean, looking back, do you think that you even wanted to join the Army, let alone infantry, going into a combat role? Or was that just to impress your dad? And that, I'm just going to share. No, I did want it.
You did want it? I badly wanted it. My whole life.
At the beginning, or did that become? No, I had always wanted that. I never wanted to do anything other than infantry my whole life.
And, yeah, part of that is because I watched my dad and I looked up to him, but the other part is because of the job itself. I mean, fuck.
Why did you go to college? Well, I wanted to finish and go in as an officer because that was what Dad did. And that was definitely, I wanted to do that because that was the example he set.
But I changed my mind because it was peacetime up until that day. And I was like, well, I'll become a mechanical engineer.
I'll do chemical engineering, go to med school. I didn't know what the fuck I wanted, man.
I just wanted something. I wanted to be something that I could be proud of and that my parents would be proud of.
But after September 11th, I think I started channeling a lot of my anger and rage that I felt at myself. At outward, like the bad guys, the people that attacked America.
And I have to do something about this. It's my duty as an American.
I mean, I come from, I don't know how many generations in a row served, but pretty much all of them, like back to the French Indian War in the 1750s or whatever that was. My family served in every conflict this country's had.
And so I definitely felt a duty to do it.

But like with so many other things, I get to the finish line and I decide to fuck it up on my own and buck the plan.

So I enlisted as 11 Bravo.

I get to Fort Benning and there's like a five-week wait or something at Reception Battalion.

It was ridiculous because of how many people are enlisting right then oh and i'm going through alcohol dts i was incredibly physically dependent on alcohol oh and by the way i dc'd all of my mental health meds which i may not have needed but my body is now used to and so I'm going through a withdrawal from these things at the same time.

And I don't have an ACL.

So this is why I kind of went, some people say,

that Ben used to be an infantryman.

Ben enlisted in the infantry, all right?

I get like, I don't know, 10 or 11 weeks into OSIT at Fort Benning,

and my knee completely goes out.

I can't tell anybody because I lied about it.

So I'm acting like this is a new injury, all right? I had vertical fractures on the outside of my tibia. And there's no cool story that goes along with this.
We were literally running PT doing the little sideways run. And it just, that was it.
And so I get to medical. They confirm, you broke your leg.
You're going to get recycled. I'm like, that's super terrible.
That's awful. I don't want to do that.

And I'm like, well, that's what's about to happen.

And they put me on crutches, I think, and it wasn't getting any better.

So they finally bring me back in and look at it again.

And this time it's an actual doc, not a PA, that's looking at it.

And she's like, you don't have an ACL, and that is not new,

and you better tell me what's going on here. And so I told her, she threatened me with a JAG referral for lying at MEPS.
So I ended up discharged from the Army, honorably, but no benefits whatsoever. It's just yet another example of if I had just stayed with the plan, I would be at Fort Huachuca becoming a badass counterintelligence guy.
But instead, Ben wanted to do what Ben thought would impress his parents and ended up fucking everything up. So I enlist after 9-11, before the summer of 2002's up, walking off of Fort Benning in my civilian clothes, carrying my bag, no phone, depressed as hell, feeling like an absolute, utter failure.
And I remember getting to a gas station just off post, and the first thing I did was buy a beer.

It went right back to it that fast.

You know, I hadn't had a drink in however many months that was,

and I'm right back on it.

At what point did you call your dad?

So I called him.

You know, they had pay phones in the little barracks courtyard, the company area, and so my parents had a 1-800 number, and they had for a very long time. I don't remember why.
So I was able to call my parents pretty frequently. But when they sent me to the, what are the, the return home unit, or maybe, I can't remember what it was called.
Usually you languish in that thing for like six weeks because they're pissed at you.

Because either you're a quitter, you lied, you fucked something up, you're getting kicked out.

And I wasn't any of those things, but I felt all of those things.

And somehow they cranked me out of there in one day.

I was in and I was out the next day.

So I called my granddaddy, my dad's dad, Korean War Vet, president of a community college, and told him what happened. He lived in Phoenix City at the time, so he came and picked me up.
And I don't remember how I got back to Auburn, but I just wanted to crawl in a hole and fucking die. I was so ashamed of myself.
You know, and I carried that chip on my shoulder for a long time, you know. Looking back now, like, dude, I tried.
If I had just not lied about my injury and done what the waiver, because apparently ROTC doesn't talk to active duty, so they had no idea about the ACL. ROTC knew all about it.

So, you know, I did my best.

I raised my right hand and swore in and then went and tried and fucking failed.

Like I had so many other things up to this point.

And it all came back to the same stuff over and over.

Me manipulating my circumstances, trying to get the outcome I think I want.

Rather than seeking, you know, maybe what God's will would be in those circumstances. Ended up back at Auburn, and things escalated pretty quick after that, real quick.
When did your dad find out? A matter of days or hours from when it happened.

Did your granddad tell him? Yeah, I told him.

I don't remember the phone conversations at all.

I was blackout drunk.

I mean, Dad obviously knew I had no ACL

and also knew I was insane for enlisting and saying I wasn't on any medication

and all the other things.

So I think he probably figured that was going to happen, right? And so when they discharged me because it was due to a preexisting, what do they call it, EPTS, existing prior to service, I had to wait two years and have proof that I fixed it before I could re-enlist.

And so my plan, and obviously this got back to ROTC too, that this had happened. So now they're pissed at me too.
My plan was to do the two years of college that I had left or whatever and then go back in. which is

ridiculous to think about

because none of my actions

lined up with that being my plan following this. I went back to the apartment my parents had stopped paying for in Auburn and holed up alone with a ton of alcohol and firearms.
You a football fan?

No, I'm not.

I'm not either.

The reason I was asked is there was an Auburn player

that lived diagonally above me who went to the NFL

and was actually a pretty big deal now.

I'm not going to name him, but I almost killed him by accident,

drunk with a pistol in my apartment.

So Auburn Police Department came out and took all of my guns.

That was my first interaction with the police since California. They didn't charge me anything, but they put all my guns in a box.
What were you doing with the gun? So, I had a party at my apartment. I had a whole bunch of people that were drunk as shit, and I had this little Glock 26.
It wased and I was sitting on my um the island in my kitchen and uh I went to the bathroom or to get a beer or something I come back and I look at it and the trigger's out and you know on a Glock when it's when it's caught the trigger's out so I thought somebody had just caught my gun and I went to decock it somebody had put a fucking magnet and chambered around so yes it was absolutely neglig discharge. I never should have pulled that trigger without checking the chamber.
But I wasn't, like, just drunk playing with the gun. Except I was drunk playing with the gun, you know.
It's a miracle I didn't kill anybody. The bullet went through my roof, through his wall, and exited right next to his head on the couch.
Shit. Yeah.
Yeah, that was a miracle that nobody died. I mean, I could have gone to prison right then.
I remember doing a lot of LSD in shrooms over the next month or two. And basically had a psychotic break, I guess.
I don't know. Ended up going back home to my parents, that girl, Rachel, that I'd met at MEPS.
What do you mean a psychotic break? It was like a constant state of panic. If you've ever had a panic attack you know they last a few minutes usually this lasted for four days and no amount of alcohol would make it go away um so psychotic break is probably not the right word but something happened it was after i ate 10 hits of acid in two days what got you into the acid um oddlyly enough, it was the kid that chambered the rent of that pistol.
I just wanted to change the way I felt and I would do anything I could. I had done acid previously in California, but never to that extent.
I just ate a ton of it. And then we went picking shrooms.
I mean, I lived right across from the Auburn Veterinary College fields where they have their llamas or alpacas or something. We'd go pick shrooms.
And I've always been fascinated by psychedelics. We could talk more about that.
But the timing, time frame on all this is a blur just because I was so fucked up, man. Completely out of my mind.
Like, my apartment looked like a hoarder lived in it. There was no carpet.
You could see nothing but beer cans. And eventually, you know, I got evicted.
I don't remember that. But somehow I ended up back in Georgia.
And somehow Rachel, that girl from Destin that I met a year prior, ended up in Georgia at my parents' with me. I don't remember how that happened.
I don't remember how she got back home. Do you talk to your parents about any of this stuff and try to fill in the blanks? Some.
Yeah, some, definitely. This part right here, I haven't.
I probably should. I honestly haven't even thought about this time period of my life until today in a really long time.
I mean, I hate talking about the fact that I failed at being in the infantry. hate talking about the fact that i failed at being a college student you know i hate talking my life is a constant series of failures up at this point so i haven't really put a whole lot of thought into it but there was like i remember i spent a whole lot of time down in dustin uh after i got out after i got back from fort benning um I remember driving that 67 Camaro down to Destin a lot.
I remember drinking in Destin a lot. So I really don't know how many of those gaps my parents could fill in because I wasn't, we weren't talking during that time period, I don't think.
I think that they knew the wheels were falling off the bus, man. You know, and my mom learned a long time ago sometimes that she's got to love me from a distance to preserve her own mental health, which I can completely understand.
I was having a lot of health problems from my drinking, though. I was throwing up a lot of blood.

I lost a whole lot of weight.

You hear about college kids floating kegs and drinking a lot of beer,

and, like, that's very common.

But I was next level.

When I say I was drinking two or three cases a day, I really mean that.

So like 72 beers in a day.

Yeah.

I would hazard a guess I was probably walking around at a constant 0.2 or 0.3 blood alcohol content.

And as you'll hear in a little bit, my frame of reference for that's pretty good.

I usually could tell what I was at.

It was bad, though.

I wanted to die.

I really did.

And I just, I knew if I kept drinking, I would.

And so that's what I was doing. That was your plan? That was the plan.
I was going to drink myself to death. Somehow I ended up back in Georgia at my parents' house.
My brother was there. Some of his friends from high school were there.
And I guess I had just shown up at their house drunk as shit. And I don't remember what happened, but I'm sure I picked a fight because I used to do that.
And my brother had had enough and my dad had had enough. And I don't remember what happened, but I remember waking up in jail the next day with black eyes like I'd had the hell beat out of me.
And I was the one that went to jail because I'm sure I was the instigator, you know. So that's my first time going to jail.
They charged me with, I guess, two counts of domestic battery, because it was my dad and my brother. And then one count of felony terrorist threat, because apparently I said some really dumb shit to the police.
They dropped those. I had an order of no contact from my parents.
Oh, I had, I don't know if you've wondered this, but I'm drinking a very large amount of alcohol. You're probably wondering how I was affording that.
Somehow, I had gotten credit cards and had paid them just enough to where I had a $30,000 credit limit. And I literally ran up like $20,000 in alcohol.
So I bonded myself out of jail with my credit card. I don't even know if you can do that today.
I think that might take cash. I don't know.
I should know this. Anyway, bonded myself out of jail.
and I, you know, my parents had taken my car because i got pulled over going like 120 miles an hour um with dope and guns in the car too never got caught for that i just remember that had that girl from florida in the car with me though anyway they'd taken my car and sold it after i get arrested arrested for that, I'm banned from going to my parents' house. I've got an order of no contact with my parents, my brother, and my brother's friend.
And I somehow convinced a car dealership to sell me a vehicle and finance it. The truck, it was a 98 GMC 4x4.
And I convinced an apartment complex to lease me an apartment. A nice one.
I had no income at all. How old are you at this point? 21.
21 years old. And, of course, I had no way of paying for this apartment, so the clock was ticking.
And I'm still drinking like a fish. I ended up meeting this guy named Rod, I think was his name, who did gutter cleaning in the apartments, and he offered me a job.
Then he tried to pay me in meth, which was weird, but I took it anyway. And so now I'm addicted to meth, squatting in an apartment with a vehicle I'm not paying for.
You know, a year prior, I had been at Fort Benning trying to become an infantryman. And a year prior to that, I was in college kicking ass.
And now I'm squatting and addicted to meth and a raging you. Oh, and I'm out on bond.
Like, it just, it went south so fast, or it felt like it did. It's gone south much faster as we get more into this.
But somehow I even had internet in this apartment, and I somehow had a computer in this apartment. I don't remember how I got these things, but I had them, and I logged into, you remember AOL Instant Messenger? Mm-hmm.
Okay, so I log into an old AIM account, and my ex-girlfriend from when I was 12 and 13, and then again 16 and and 17, from Mississippi messages me. The same one you were pissed off about that you had to leave to go to California? One of the things we've been wanting to start on Patreon is deep dives into the guests.
We found Ben and Jess's story so inspiring

that we actually created a mini doc

out of what they're doing right now.

It's over on Patreon.

You guys can go check it out.

I've been wanting to do this for a long time,

and we finally have the team

to be able to go and produce these things

thanks to Patreon.

I've talked about this on almost every show. I thank our patrons.
Without you guys, none of this would be possible. I'm so excited to bring this to you guys.
I think you're going to love it. I know you're going to love it.
And Ben, his story is so awesome. Flipping the trap houses into halfway houses.
It's an amazing mini documentary on what they're doing right now. Like I said, we found this story so inspiring.
We're going to start doing this with more and more guests that we have on the Sean Ryan Show. Head over to Patreon right now.
You can view the whole documentary. No, same time frame, but it was a different girl.
Okay. Me and this girl, her name's Erin.

You know, we've known each other since we were 12.

I went to the same church.

She actually wrote me letters when I was locked up in rehab in California and Utah.

She'd stayed in touch with my mom and had just been kind of like a constant positive influence over the years.

When I moved back to Alabama, 16 and 17, we dated long distance.

And anyway, she messages me on a aim and uh she's like has this been and i'm like yeah she didn't believe me because apparently she'd been trying to message me and kept getting one of my crazy girl friends and um so i'm like well call me so i pick up the phone call her and uh we talked for five minutes she's like, well, look, I'm married, but I'm about to get divorced. Why don't you come up to North Carolina? And I'm sitting there thinking in the back of my head, this bitch has no idea what she's getting into.
Because she's a good little church girl, right? And I ended up, my credit cards are all almost maxed out at this point. But the clock's ticking.
I'm about to be homeless and my truck's going to get repoed.

So I get the truck

and I start driving to Charlotte, run out of gas.

My credit card's declined.

I convince somebody

to fill my truck up with gas.

I make it to Charlotte.

Long story short,

she's pregnant.

What do you mean

long story short?

I went up there and we spent

And Long story short, she's pregnant. What do you mean, long story short? I went up there.
I went up there. We spent two nights together.
I get back down to Atlanta. I had— And what do you look like at this point? Absolute dog shit.
Shaved head. It's cut everywhere because I tried to shave it with a Bic razor.
I was thin as shit, still a raging alcoholic. I looked like death warmed over in fat.
And meth. Meth, yeah.
And a meth addiction. And meth.
Now, she had no idea about the meth or the alcohol, any of that. Even after you met her? Even after I met her, she just thought I was skinny, you know? You don't think she looked the other way? She could smell it on you? Well, so she did.
She knew I was drinking. She was drinking too then, right? So, like, that was acceptable because she didn't see what happens when I don't drink.
I get sick as shit. She also didn't see me drinking at 6 o'clock in the morning.
So, I was able to hide it for a couple days. Now I remember how I had the computer.
I had gotten a job selling merchant services, credit card processing, over the phone to somebody. And so somebody provided me a computer.
We had a deal go through, so I had a couple thousand dollars. I went and spent that time up there and started with her, came back to my apartment.
I'm trying to figure out how to afford everything, how to start rebuilding my life. Hold on.
What did you guys do up there? Just drink? Yeah. Have sex? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just locked yourself in a room? Went to like a holiday inn.
And yeah, that's what we did. And I go back to Atlanta.
And it lasted two days? Two days. That's it.
What ended it? Well, I had to go back to Atlanta. Oh, okay.
So what actually ended it was she said she's getting divorced. Her husband didn't know that part yet.
He's about to because like three weeks after I get back to Atlanta, she realizes she's pregnant. And there's no way it's his because they've been sleeping in different rooms and blah, blah, blah.
So she has to tell him and then she has to tell me. I may have misrepresented.
I'm not actually in the middle of a divorce but I'm gonna be now um and I ended up moving to Charlotte um moved in with her and her sister uh I quit drinking cold turkey I quit meth the day I left Atlanta I've never liked meth ever you know I did it because it was there well mostly because God tried to pay me in meth and I wanted at least something for my labor. So anyway, I quit drinking cold turkey and it almost killed me.
I got pancreatitis. I lost 40 pounds in a month.
And keep in mind, I'm already pretty thin. I didn't have that to lose.
And I almost died. They didn't know what was wrong with me because I wasn't being truthful with any of the doctors about how much I drank.
And when I would try to be, they would discount. They're like, well, you're young.
There's no way you can drink that much. And so, of course, I took that and banked that.
See, even the doctor says I can't drink that much. Just in case, I want to start drinking again.
But I got sober, and I stayed that way.

Jackson, our oldest child, was born.

Aaron files for divorce.

And I get a job in Charlotte after I heal up, and I can eat and keep food down, and I'm gaining weight again.

I get a job.

How long did that take? I was bedridden for 30 days. It took about 30 days to get through that.
Yeah. Well, it took about 60 to fully recover from it, all in.
But I couldn't get out of bed for 30 days. And I didn't realize this then, but...
What does the girl think that you can't get out of bed in 30 days? Well, she knew I had pancreatitis, and I'd gotten honest with her about the drinking, too. Why did you quit drinking? Because I knew I had a son coming.
So that cleaned you up. That cleaned me up, yeah.
I didn't want to be a piece of shit, and I didn't want to die anymore. I wanted to do right.
And she was supportive? Oh, yeah. She knew when we got together, you know, because she'd been there through California and Utah.
She knew I had battled addiction. And she knew I battled.
Well, she thought I was bipolar. We all thought I was bipolar still at the time.
So she knew what she was getting into. What? Why? I mean, you're saying this is a good church girl.

Were you a project? What was this?

She was convinced from the time we met that we were meant to be together. Why? I don't know.
She never told you? She just, I was her one. I was her one.
and you know

from my perspective

I've had nothing

but crazy psychos

all the way up to this point.

And she, like, wants to have a family and cook me dinner and be sweet to me.

And she doesn't, you know, get mad and hit me.

And it was great from my perspective, too.

You know, it seemed great.

And so I quit drinking.

And we got through that. I got a job.

She had a job. She was in school.
Now, are you talking to your parents at this point?

I didn't talk to them the whole time I was sick. They didn't know where I was.

They just knew that apartment. My mom came and saw me the night before I left and just sobbed

because I looked so bad. When did the restraining order lift so that case got adjudicated they gave me diversion they dropped the felony terrorist threat and they gave me diversion which i completed uh through community service at the red cross in north carolina they let me move my probation up there um so it got deleted deleted.
There's no criminal record associated with it. It's like it never happened.
As soon as I took that deal, the restraining order was lifted, but my parents and I had already been talking because after I moved to Charlotte, I didn't know this, but Lauren, Aaron's sister, had called my parents to say, hey, just want you to know Ben's here. He's trying to get sober.
He's alive. Aaron's the girl.
Aaron's the girl. Lauren's her sister.
So my parents knew where I was. I didn't know they knew that, but I thought I had just gone no contact.
And that was my plan. I was going to go no contact until I could come back with something saying, here's what I've done.
You know, I'm not a piece of shit, see? And so I was looking at getting back into school. I was working this job with this guy who did electronics recycling.
He was, like, paying me, like, $7 an hour or something ridiculous. But as I'm watching the way this business operates, I notice a lot of stuff goes in the dumpster that looks like it's probably valuable, like computer servers and hard disk drives and all sorts of stuff like this.
I started talking to them about it. I come to find out the way their business operates.
They do asset recovery. So if you lease, let's say you lease these lights and these microphones from somebody.
Well, the person you lease them from is writing that off and then when it's done with

they're supposed to throw it away or give it to electronics recyclers so the guy's explaining to me all of the stuff's already paid for i don't give a shit it's going in my dumpster and i was like well could i list it on ebay and take a cut of it he's like go ahead your idea is dumb but go ahead the idea was not dumb i started like printing money it was going really well and um My parents decided that I had been doing good enough to go back to college, and they were going to help. We had a kid now.
And so I moved from— How did they feel about the kid? They were just overjoyed. They were happy about it.
Not at first. But the fact that it was with Erin, and my parents have known Erin since she was a little girl.
They know Erin's mom.

They thought this is the turnaround Ben needed. And I did, too.
I really did. I think we all thought that the hopes were high.
Let's put it that way. Ben finally has some stability.
Had there ever been any more discussion about the abortion? No, never came up. Never since? No.
I mean, I talked to Aaron a lot about it because it ate me alive, dude. It ate me alive for a long time.
So you and your mom have not spoken about the abortion since it's happened? Still to this day? To this day. Probably should.
It's one of those things that kind of blocked out until I started telling my story.

It's just, it hurts.

I can't go back and change that.

You think you'll talk about it now?

I think I need to.

I think I need to.

I think I needed to a long fucking time ago, too.

How will you bring it up?

Oh, I got a really good excuse now.

Hey, Mom, guess what?

All that slip on the Sean Ryan show.

We should talk about this before it airs.

Yeah.

I know.

So I guess it wasn't entirely true.

We did talk about it once, and my mom told me that she went inside with Amber,

and Amber was much further along than she would have been if it was mine. Now, I don't know if my mom told me that to make me feel better or to make herself feel better or if that's reality, and I doubt very much that Amber is alive for me to track down and find out.
So I had forgotten that. We did talk about that.
Have you ever tried to track her down? No. No.
Oddly enough, that ex that I went nuts over hit me up on LinkedIn like two months ago. Or I guess it was a year ago.
She said, hey, I'm getting divorced. What are you doing? I was like, I am not getting divorced and you can get out of my fucking DMs.
I've had a few exes pull that, and I'll pop up, tell them they're getting divorced. Hell, even Aaron.
Anyway. Yeah, you can tell that abortion still eats at me.
It does, a lot. I used to get drunk about that a lot.

But I think part of me was using it as an excuse.

It does bother me.

I can tell.

But I would take any excuse I could just to not have to be responsible for my behavior.

And I think we run into that with a lot of addicts and alcoholics, especially in the veteran community. And that's maybe a controversial topic.
But I think in society's efforts to understand, especially what combat vets have gone through, we might have incentivized some of them to adopt a victim mentality. I'm not going to disagree with that.
I've talked about it several times on here. Well, and I think for most people that would be okay, but when you're dealing with an addict or an alcoholic, victims don't recover.
Victims die. And that's the stark truth.
And so I don't know what the answer is to that. And that's a rabbit hole I just took us on.
But it's a fact, man. You know, we're trying to get...
Anyway. Keep going.
We're trying to get vets who are battling alcoholism and addiction out of the gutter and to take responsibility for their lives. I'm going to preface this with I don't know what the answer is, but I do know what part of the problem is.
And we have all of these veteran-specific recovery groups and these veteran-specific rehabs. These are great.
Somebody's getting paid out the ass to make that. And the only way they stay open is if they keep convincing vets, they're going to recover different and keep getting vets into their programs.
Veterans, especially combat veterans, do need special treatment when it comes to certain things. You know, when you're talking about combat trauma, moral injury, yeah, yeah, that is something very niche and you need specific help from veterans with that.
But when we're talking about alcoholism and addiction, bro, you recover just like everybody else does. The same 12 steps that have worked for 90 years are going to work for you too.
You just got to work them. And not everybody has to go through 12 steps.
Plenty of people get sober without that stuff. But it's the ones that think that they're in the room as we call it terminally unique.
And it is terminal. If you think you're special and different than another addict or alcoholic, the chances of you being able to lean on their experience, strength, and hope to get better, it's cut infinitesimally small because you're nullifying their experience and thinking it can't help you just because they don't have some of the other experiences you have.
And I don't know that I'm the right guy to take that conversation to the masses because I'm barely even a veteran. And I'm definitely not a combat veteran.

I'm just speaking from experience.

We've seen this time and again with vets that want to hold on to that, what makes them special, and they are special. They're less than 1% of the population.
They're special. But when it comes to getting off dope or putting down a bottle, no.
You can't be special in that regard. Yeah.
We just had a conversation about this last night on our Patreon live chat.

It was with a firefighter, and I think, I don't think, I know.

I mean, being a SEAL is something I did.

Contracting for the agency is something I did. Being a firefighter is something you did.
Contracting for the agency is something I did. Being a firefighter is something you did.
Being a cop is something you did. But being a combat vet is something you did.
It doesn't define who the fuck you are. That's not you.
That's something you did. And so many of us, me included, you know, I did it.
You wrap that up into your identity. Yeah, the line gets barred.
And understandably so. But it's still there, you know, and it's still a massive impediment to vets that are trying to get sober.
They've got to shred that or shed the victim mentality. And it's hard.
It's hard to tell somebody that. We're into it trafficking survivors too.
The same mentality and the same incentivization to maintain victimhood gets pushed on them. It gets pushed.
I think they think they can't do anything else. I don't think it's just victim mentality.
Now, there is definitely the victim mentality. I see it all the time.
You see it all the time. I think there's a lot of commonalities with the stuff that go into that, but probably with trafficking victims as well, I don't have as much insight into that.
It's not just a job you know it's it's a it's a lifestyle it's a culture it's a it's a 24 7 365 job yep and your identity becomes wrapped up in that you lose sight of who you really are and then when you when you wrap your identity up into that and in it it you allow it to become part of you. When that role is over, you lose your entire sense of who you are.
Exactly. And people get wrapped up in it and they can't set that down and go, this is something I did.
Now it's time to move on. The war's over.
You're too old to go back. It's done.
So you can't keep living like you're living, like you're going back. Or going to fight another fire.
Or going to solve another crime. Or going to fight another crime.
You You got to treat it just like any other life. I think a lot of the same with trafficking victims.
That is a lifestyle. Yep.
That is a lifestyle of sex, parties, all that kind of stuff. And you just can't carry that with you.
And people think it's impossible. A lot of people think it's, you know, I'll never, I don't, you know, how are these skills going to transfer over? They're not going to fucking transfer.
You mean you don't get to shoot people in the face every day anymore? Yeah. They're not going to transfer over.
And, but you have to, you have to find who you are. You have to find who you are.
You have to develop new hobbies. 100%.
New interests. And, I mean, look, me coming out of the SEAL teams or me coming out of contracting for the CIA, I sure as shit didn't think I'd be sitting here podcasting.
But, you know, and that's what I did. You know, I went into tactics, and then I didn't like teaching tactics.
I just, it was the thing I did. And then I threw a bunch of, tried a bunch of different things, you know? And I didn't like this, didn't like this.
I kind of like this. Let me try it again.
Let me try it again. And then it changes, man.
You have to be willing to put that shit behind you and think of it as, that was a segment of my life. That's not who I am.
That's over now. Let's move on to the next thing.
And it takes time. You can't just make that decision immediately and go, oh, now I'm going to be, I want to do this.
It takes time to figure out who the fuck you are and what you like doing and what new interests are. And you have to be open to accept those new interests to develop who you're going to become.
Absolutely. Rather than living with who you were or who you thought you were.
Well, that's what comes out. It's who you thought you were.
And even back to the firstborn, you know, impressing the parents thing. I mean, that was a huge burden on me for a long time.
and like it's just this it's

this pressure.

And it wasn't who I was, man.

But we do it to ourselves, though.

We do it to ourselves.

It's a self-imposed prison.

Yeah.

And once you realize that, you're free to redefine, to identify,

to find that thing that gives you purpose. How do you say his last name? Fetes? Chris Fetes? Fetes.
Fetes. Chris Fetes.
You and him had a great conversation about that, about finding purpose in life after any of those roles that used to identify who we are. And that's really what it comes down to.
And I've noticed that to be especially true for vets. So while I just had a rant about trying to get vets sober, I've got something positive to add to that.
You take a veteran who is struggling with alcoholism or addiction and you find them purpose, bro, they're going to change the world. I mean, fast too.
You've just got to help them find that purpose. Let's move on.
All right. So we're in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Aaron has had Jackson, my oldest child. I'm sober.
I'm working. I've started up this side hustle on eBay that's going pretty good.
And my parents decide that, you know, since Ben's a father now and is getting married, Ben needs a college degree.

And I was very excited to hear that.

I don't know why my parents decided to show back up for me the way that they did,

because I never in a million years could have expected this from them.

But they put us in a house in Huntsville, Alabama,

and basically made sure all of our basic needs were covered. And I took out student loans, and Aaron and I both went to college.
School went really well. I was working during school.
I was kicking ass. I think I had like a 3.8 GPA.
I'd switched to business because engineering, you know, with everything I had going on just wasn't going to happen. I needed to graduate quick and get a job.
And yet again, I decided to follow my dad's footsteps, surprise, surprise, and set my eyes on a job with Pfizer. Because I loved the life he'd been able to provide for us, you know, even though I didn't appreciate it at the time.
So I wanted to go follow in his footsteps at Pfizer. Kickin' ass in business school.
My granddaddy, the one that picked me up from Fort Benning, was, oddly enough, battling a myotrophic lateral sclerosis Lou Gehrig's disease and was nearing the end of his life with that you know it's always terminal and it's very rare for somebody to get it at his age he was in his 70s and my grandmother his wife of 50 years had Alzheimer's and they were both getting close to the end that was one of the reasons we moved back to Alabama was to be close them. And I've always been extremely close to both of them, my grandparents.
I mean, they were probably my two favorite people ever. And Grenadine died.
He did get to meet Jackson. And I started drinking again.
And really what I did was kind of fucked up.

I said I was going to quit for a year.

Let's walk it all the way back.

You started drinking again.

Right after your grandpa's death.

Yep.

Let's just walk through that decision-making process. There really is not a decision-making process involved in this one.
You're sober for a year at this point? I was sober for a year, and I told Aaron and Lauren back in Charlotte that I was going to quit drinking for a year.

This year has passed, and now I have an excuse.

My favorite person on earth just died.

A normal person can drink over that.

I'm a normal person now.

You see?

I put the alcohol down for a year voluntarily.

That makes me normal.

That was the fucked up thinking I was using.

And I knew full well in the back of my mind I was not going to be able to maintain. Where did you go? Just a gas station right up the street.
And I started drinking again. And oddly enough, I did hold it together.
I mean, I was making all my classes. My kid was well taken

care of. My yard was perfectly manicured at the house my parents were paying for.
I was making it, you know, I was working two jobs sometimes. Over the breaks, I would work 12-hour shifts seven days a week for 30 days straight in a factory, making good money, but drinking.
and

my parents found out

I guess Aaron had told them

or maybe they found a beer bottle or something, I don't know, and just raised holy hell over the fact that I was drinking again. And I broke it down like I don't see what the problem is.
Look at all of what I'm doing despite the fact that I'm drinking. Like, what's the big deal? Obviously, my parents know what the big deal is.
I'm a raging alcoholic. It doesn't matter what I'm able to maintain.
I'm only going to maintain that until I can't. And the day when I can't is going to come.
It always does. Aaron ends up getting pregnant again.
We're still in college. Jacob's on the way.

And we had a huge blow up about my drinking.

And so my petty response to that was like, fine, I'll quit for two years this time.

And that's what I did.

And so I put it back down.

And Jacob was born.

And life was great.

I was going to college.

I was doing really good. And then I get sick again.
Like the pancreatitis had came back when I quit drinking or something. We couldn't figure it out.
The doctors couldn't figure it out. I lose a shitload of weight.
I ended up going over to my parents' house in, and they take me to some specialist over there who figures out I have literally pickled my gallbladder. I drank an organ out of my body.
So they removed the gallbladder in 2005, and then realized I'd done a lot of other damage to my GI tract, the drinking all the times I've been throwing up blood. And so they do another operation called a Nissen procedure, which is supposed to be for reflux, but they were trying to undo damage I'd done.

I was supposedly the youngest person in the state of Alabama to ever have that surgery done.

But I'd stopped drinking.

I had two abdominal surgeries, which are extremely painful.

And so they had me on a lot of pain pills,

which I don't know that I was addicted to them,

but I sure loved them.

And I was taking like as prescribed, you know,

I wouldn't take an extra,

but I definitely developed a taste for opiates

during this time period.

I ended up graduating college and get hired on at Pfizer as a sales rep. They moved us to Memphis.
That's how I ended up in Memphis. The drinking culture at Pfizer, or really anywhere in corporate America, it's not a great place for an incognito-alcoholic to be.
And I was not doing meetings. I just stopped drinking, right? So, you know, it was just a matter of time.
And it started pretty fast. Right back to drinking every day.
Right back to drinking at 6 o'clock in the morning. And to the point that they figured it out at Pfizer training and put me out on short-term disability for being an alcoholic.
I'm like, that seems retarded. The way this works at Pfizer at the time, if you're on short-term disability, you still get paid and you're not allowed to work at all.
And I thought that was the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. I was excited to be working.
I came out of Pfizer training with, like, one of the highest test scores ever. They hired me to sell pain management meds and an inhaled insulin that ended up bombing a couple of years later.
But I excelled in the training. Like all that medical love had come back.
I've got a job explaining to doctors the pharmacokinetics of, you know, different drugs. And it was awesome.
I wanted to work and they wouldn't let me because I had this drinking problem. And we've just moved to Memphis.
We're in a new city. We don't know anybody.
You know, and I did get to work a little bit out in the field and do my actual job before the chips all came falling down on this shit. And I ended up getting, I want to say alcoholic psychosis, but it was worse than that.
Wernicke Korsakoff's.

It's supposed to be permanent brain damage from the amount I was drinking.

And it was so bad that the neurologist that was telling us about this told Erin that she needed to start taking videos of me and the kids

so that I would remember them because pretty soon I'm not.

My brain is turning into Swiss cheese from the amount of alcohol I'm consuming.

And that if I ever drink again I'm gonna die and I refused to accept that I backed off on my drinking because I was having very bad memory problems very bad like it was frightening scaring shit on me like I did believe the doctors that I might have the memory thing. I didn't believe I was going to die if I drank again.
This was in early 2007. I'm not wanting to accept I'm an alcoholic.
You know, outside looking in, bro, you were 25 years old or whatever I was, and you drank an organ out of your body. Like, that's a clue, you know? If you're any age and you drink until you're puking up blood, you're not a person that should drink.
So outside looking at it, I think the whole world knows Ben's a raging alcoholic. Everybody but Ben accepts this.
And I was still obsessed with the fact that, no, I'm a real man. I can drink.
And we ended up at my parents' house. It's Easter Sunday of 2007.
And they tried to do an intervention with me. And I wanted absolutely nothing to do with that at all.
You know, I've got two kids in the house. I'd gotten off disability at this point and been in the field absolutely kicking ass, like overselling quotas left and right, setting sales records.
Like, I deserve a goddamn drink. Y'all can fuck off.
You know, I'm off to a hotter start than my dad was. This is the way I'm looking at this.
And so I left house real pissed off and uh i hit scottsboro alabama going about 130 and a car flipped single car accident i was buckled and my seat broke on the second or third flip and i went out the rear windshield going over 100 miles an hour and i remember flying you know through the the air and like I had time to cognitively think I need to make sure I land on my feet. And right about that time, my face hit the grass in the median.
I had road burn all over my head. I bounced, flipped end over end several times.
I ended up breaking my pelvis in three places, which if you're not familiar with pelvic fractures it's extremely dangerous all your organs sit in your pelvis my left leg, the one that I screwed up in the army and in football was completely demolished half of my tibia is now bone filler. They had to reconstruct the tibial plateau.

Plates in there.

That's a few other broken bones.

That was it for me.

I got sober that day.

And it would have stayed it if I had just done,

this is 2007, if I had done in 2007 what they've been telling me to do since 1997, which is go to fucking meetings, like you're not special. This is a problem lots people have.
You go to these meetings, they make you better. If I'd have been willing to do that, I'd have stayed sober from Easter Sunday, 2007, and me and you wouldn't be sitting here right now.
I decided to leave Pfizer

I was going to do everything other than go to meetings though i was not going to drink i even quit cigarettes i quit every mental health medication they had me on i was drunk on a wrecked car i was also on clonopin which was prescribed to me i was also on xanax which is prescribed why i'm on both of those at the same time is beyond me i'm on like 100 milligrams of add Adderall a day. Like I'm on all the dope.
State Trooper saw how fucked up I was and was like, pretty sure you're taking some stuff you're not supposed to, but I'm not charging you. You know? And I was like, that's it.
That's, you know, God just winked at me. I'm taking it.
I'm taking it and I'm fixing my life. So I quit smoking cigarettes.
I quit all the meds. And I got sober.
I decided to leave Pfizer because the drinking culture was too bad. And as good as I was doing there, I should be making a lot more money.
And so I started looking into getting a job in medical device sales. And that ended up being exactly what I did.
I got a job selling medical devices um i interviewed for several women's and women's health space one was in trauma selling the exact plate that was in my leg and then cardiac is where i found my passion so not a cardiovascular surgeon but i'm getting to sell cardiac devices in the cath lab cardiologist and electrophysiologist i'm getting to nerd out on all this cool stuff and And I was making money hand over fist. I think I made like $230 that year at 25, 26 years old.
Like I was doing really good. And then we had a company-wide meeting in Chicago.
And I hadn't, like Pfizer does all these functions. It's impossible to not be around everybody being drunk when you work at a pharmaceutical company.
Medical advice is a little different. Territories are much more spread out.
And so I hadn't been exposed to that. We had the meeting in Chicago and I realized I'm in the same fucking environment I was at Pfizer.
Except it's even worse. They were like harassing me for not drinking.
And I ended up getting into it with our VP of sales pretty big, pretty bad. And I was like, I can't, I can't stay here.
And that was just as well because they started telling us to commit Medicare fraud, change billing codes so that they would cover our devices and some other stuff that I knew was extremely illegal. I asked a question, and they terminated me, which is fine because I wanted that to happen anyway.
Now, a few years later, they ended up getting fined, I think, $21 million by the Office of the Inspector General for exactly what I asked a question about. So, whatever.
What was the question? Is it not Medicare fraud to change this diagnosis from palpitations to conduction delay unspecified, knowing full well that, yes, they mean the same thing, but Medicare will only pay for conduction delay unspecified, not palpitations? And I sent that in an email with those exact words. They knew I was firing shots at them.
Like, I'm telling you, I know you are breaking federal law right now, and I'm not going to do it. And I want you to reply to this email and tell me in writing that you want me to do it.
Two of us sent that email. My buddy actually was the whistleblower that got a few million dollars when they got fined.
I went back to that little side hustle I had because I wanted to start my own business. I wanted to be self-employed.
And this is the only way in my mind I could stay sober the way Ben had to stay sober, which is I need to just work for myself and create my own culture at my job. And so I ended up making a lot of eBay listings of some computer and server gear that I'd had laying around.
But it's dawning on me. I just went from making a lot of money to zero income.
My wife is a stay-at-home mom. I have two kids.
I'm a t-ball coach. I'm a Cub Scout leader.
I got a lot of responsibilities and no money coming in. So I'm going through my garage trying to figure out what can I do, what can I do, what can I do, and there's a broken flat's a broken flat screen tv in my garage i was like i'm gonna find a screen and fix that thing and

sell it because this is back when like a 37 inch tv was two thousand dollars or whatever they were now i get on ebay and there's literally no screens for these tvs anywhere um i'm like well that's weird uh there's no aftermarket parts available me being me always thinking of a hustle i took the tv apart and listed all the parts on ebay for sale it was working because i knew they worked the only thing that was wrong with the tv was the screen was broken wake up the next day and there's 400 bucks in my paypal account i had sold every part out of that tv that was basically from a dumpster overnight. And so I went to a TV parts place in Memphis, a TV repair shop in Memphis, and asked them if I could buy broken screen TVs from them.
And they're like, why would you want to do that? And I told them, they're like, we need a new source for parts. That's a great idea.
And so then next thing I know, I'm buying broken TVs from every repair shop in Memphis. I'm running ads on Craigslist and buying broken TVs.
I started this business in my garage in 2009. That's when everything fell apart with the medical device companies, 2009.
And by 2011, I had a 7,500-square-foot warehouse and a dozen employees. Wow.
It grew quick, man. I had my first website built.
I got on Shopify in 2010 or maybe 2009. They had like 34 employees and were renting space from somebody else.
They didn't have their own office back then. You know, Shopify is massive now.
And so I stayed sober that whole time. I didn't even start smoking cigarettes again.
I'm off all the mental health meds, and I've realized there's nothing wrong with my brain. I'm just a high-stress person that does have ADHD and high anxiety sometimes, but everything was going really good.
My dad, well, let me back up. We had Lily.
Erin wanted to try again for a girl.

And so we got her, Lily.

And Erin is not great at taking medication on schedule.

So birth control being one of those.

A year after Lily was born, we had twin boys.

So three kids in a year.

But I don't care.

I mean, I'm making good money.

Like, everything's going good.

I'm excited. My dad ended up getting cut from pfizer a couple years before that um and he'd gone into business with one of his old buddies and i guess there was they were having some financial strain they moved into the house next door to us.
My dad actually worked for me briefly.

And I don't remember exactly when it was in 2011,

but some stuff happened between my parents,

and I don't want to get into it, but the whole holding my parents on a pedestal thing kind of got ripped away.

And you don't want to go into it.

Let's put it this way.

They came real close to getting divorced,

and I saw a different side of a lot of things that fucked me up to my core.

And both of them?

Yeah.

And I didn't have anybody to talk to about that i didn't know who to go to um i didn't know how to deal with it and i ended up drinking what year is this 2011 um and the really bad part about that is that nothing bad happened. It went okay.
And so me and Erin decided that, you know, maybe I wasn't an alcoholic after all because she'd missed drinking. You know, Erin's not an alcoholic.
Like, she was a social drinker. She missed it.
So the next six months, you know, I'm enjoying my single malt scotch and smoking cigars and making crazy money at this TV parts business. You know, I'm on top of the world, dude.
And then I want to say it was like November, December of 2011. My leg starts acting up, the one that I got the plate in.
And it swells up and it's like just nasty, gnarly looking. I ended up having a methicillin-resistant staph infection that had recurred.
Now, this had happened before. It came back and it was really, really.
Like, they were talking about potentially I was going to be an above-knee amputee if it moved anymore, and I'm freaking the fuck out. They got me on a lot of pain medication, and I'm drinking again, you know, and that's not a good combination.
I wasn't abusing the pain medication, but I have a really high tolerance to opiates, and we've already established I'm bad about manipulating doctors.

And so I convinced my doctor that I needed a lot more than I needed.

And so I was physically addicted to prescribed pain pain pills which ones uh percocet um at first percocet at first speaking of above knee amputations i actually had an amputee living on my couch at this point um he had come back from iraq lost a leg and ended up addicted to oxycodone prescribed by the VA. We'd given him a job, got him off of our couch, and moved him into the house next door to us.
My parents had moved out. And he had been clean.
Like, he went through rehab, and he's rebuilding his life. And I'm being an absolute asshole at work.
And I it's these fucking pain pills and so i flushed him down the toilet and he saw me do it and he looked at me like i was a crazy person i was like what you know i just i literally just cussed out a guy that spent 90 000 with me in the last 18 months i can't i can't do this he goes he just laughed and then it hit me i am addicted to these things, and I'm about to find out what it means to be dope sick. And sure as shit, I did.
About eight hours later, I could not move. And then comes Sergeant Deaton with a little blue pill that he'd gotten from the VA, and that was the first time I ever took one of the 30-milligram Roxy's, and I was better like that.
i say better i was addicted to something much much stronger so it started out with the prescribed pain pill habit and progressed to somebody else's prescription and then it progressed even worse than that to what so i went back and forth with the pain pill addiction for probably all of 2012. And it made me realize this drinking problem is getting worse quickly.
And so, I went to rehab, detox, anyway, in Georgia. On your own accord? Oh, yeah.
I wanted it. But I still had this air of entitlement about me.
I own a business. I've housed a homeless veteran.
I've given him a job. I only drink single-blank scotch.
I'm bougie. And so I had to go to this expensive-ass place where Steve Rivone and Burt Reynolds got cleaned.
And I wasn't going to file it on insurance either because I also have started up Black Rifle

and Brushfire Tactical

and these other tactical e-commerce brands.

I don't want my name.

I don't want anybody to know, and I'm an alcoholic.

You had already started all these other companies.

2012, yeah.

I started those up on Shopify.

This was before Shopify said you can't sell guns on here.

So what was Black Rifle Co.?

It was a gun e-commerce. So not firearms just parts accessories and ammunition um most of it was drop shipped we would warehouse some of it um and ship it out in just like their damn tv parts and what was the other company brushfire tactical we had several of them we had two testicles tactical which was hilarious uh we had what What did they sell? It was all the same.
Every brand sold the same stuff. I was playing with branding to see which one I can get to go viral.
So basically, you created a business model out of the electronics industry and brought that into firearms. Yeah, 100%.
And the progression happened sorry, I was so stuck on telling you about the drugs and alcohol. I forgot that part.
At Retech, that was the name of the TV parts company. And it was doing really well.
But I don't give a shit about TVs. I love firearms.
You know, I was trying to figure out how to spin this into firearms or muscle cars or something that I'm passionate about. And so I discovered dropshipping.
How many companies were you running? Like five at any given time. But they were all running out of the same thing.
And the way I look at it, so even though they're different entities, the business model is very similar for all of them. Now, tactical and TV parts are different because the TV parts, you're having to buy truckloads of broken televisions, literal 53-foot truckloads.
A lot of labor goes into testing and stripping. But then after that, it's just pulling parts off of shelves, sticking them in boxes, shipping them to the right person.
That second half is identical for the gun parts. Pull a part off the shelf, stick it in a box, make sure it gets the right person.
So I'm able to use the same labor as far as the fulfillment side goes. And we'd learned about dropshipping in the TV parts because you can dropship electronics.
That's where you're selling something you don't even have. You're buying it wholesale from a third-party warehouse who then ships it directly to your customer.
It's super convenient. You take the margin, right? And so we'd gotten into that some on the electronics side of things.
And then that was what we built, Black Rifle, Brushfire, Triple T, all of those brands around was the drop shipping model. And it was really, I was just wanting to see on the branding side.
And it was weird. All the products are the same.
All the staff is the same. But there were diehard customers of Triple T that would get in arguments on social media with customers from Black.
It was hilarious. It's's all me like what are you doing anyway um and it was weird because like i'd make prices higher on one and had to lower on the other and watch it i don't know it was fun it was like game to me um but it went really well for a long time uh until like mid 2012 the drink was getting out of hand and i was like i'm gonna i'm gonna pay cash out of pocket to go to this bougie place in Georgia where Bert Reynolds got sober.
I'm there six days. And how well are you doing? Are you a millionaire? I had gotten a buyout offer that was over $2 million.
I did not take it. I should have.
I should have. I had over a million in inventory.
Well over a million in inventory. I bought a 68 gto restored it with the kids it's uh we converted it to electronic fuel injection it ran like a scalded dog man had it cammed out it was such a badass car um how were you being a dad how was i being a dad so my kids had never at this point never seen me drunk not once never seen me smoke a cigarette i'm still coaching t-ball i'm coaching soccer i'm leading cub scouts i don't sleep much back then i would be good on four or five hours you know um so i was like dad of the damn year not just to my kids but to other kids in the neighborhood too like i was doing great outside doing great outside looking in.
You know, Aaron knew the reality. I was really, really struggling.
So you're running five companies. Yeah.
You got how many kids? Four kids? I had five at this point. Five kids, a husband, T-ball coach, Cub Scouts.
And going to church every Sunday. And going to church every Sunday.

Had a massive drinking problem. Yeah.
So when would you fit in the drinking? At night, all the time. Do you think your kids never saw you drunk, or they actually never saw you drunk? They actually never saw me drunk at this point.
They never did. So when would you do it? All the time.
But here's the thing. I would converse just like this without flurring or anything legally drunk.
So I take that back. They saw me drunk.
They never saw me ax drunk. I was drinking all the time, but they wouldn't necessarily see me like they'd ever see me with a beer.
I was drinking scotch. And I was going through two bottles of McAllen 12 a day at this point.
And it was getting bad fast. So there were like...
How's your wife? Does your wife know this?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
And she knows it's getting out of hand again.

What's she saying to you?

Like begging me to go get help. Begging me to go to rehab.
Can we please tell your parents? Can we

please call your parents? Can we please tell your parents?

So hold on.

You're telling me your kids never saw you drunk.

You could converse without slurring.

You're basically a high-functioning drunk.

Or at the same token, you're telling me that Aaron is begging you to go to rehab because it's getting bad.

So these are like contradictions. Let me explain it.

Okay.

So after the kids go to bed, there is no more speaking without slurring.

I'm blacked out, like plastered after the kids go to bed.

I also can't get out of my bed in the morning without drinking because if I do, I'm puking up bile.

So I have to have a drink just to get out of bed.

But once I have that first drink, I'm just as normal as I am right now until I have too much, which doesn't usually happen until the kids go to bed. I do want to clarify, the only reason the kids never saw me sloppy is because Erin shielded them from a lot of this.
The woman deserves a fucking medal. She hid so much of this, which is a double-edged sword because in a couple of years, it's going to catch them really off guard when I start getting in trouble.
But she never let them see that. So they were very sheltered and shielded from it.
So even though it was happening, they never saw it. But, I mean, I was pretty different.
And you're on opiates. Those were off and on.
The infection came back two or three times, 2011, 12, and 13. And each time that it comes back, it's going to get worse.
The drinking is an immediate problem because I'm puking up blood again. And so we finally did tell my parents.
My mom came and got me, and she took me to this place in Georgia. And I uh i was supposed to stay there for six weeks the whole thing i'm gonna do medical detox um and stay for rehab you know uh and i've been to plenty of rehabs already up to this point like i skipped a few in here by accident um before erin this is gonna be the first time i've gone since Aaron, since I had kids.
Six days in, Aaron calls, and the business is falling apart. Nobody is able to run it without me there, which is 100% my fault.
I did not build a business that could exist in my absence, and I knew that. And part of it was fear because I was a control freak.

And part of it was I was too busy drinking than teaching somebody to run it in my absence.

So I leave detox.

I completed detox.

I leave without going to the rehab, which I knew was a bad idea.

But I also didn't have a choice.

All right, I guess I had a choice. I just made the wrong one.
I left. I went back to work.
And three days later, I walked into the ER at Babs East, puking out blood, talking probably more slurred. But according to them, I set the Tennessee ambulatory state record.

Tennessee state record for ambulatory BAC.

I blew a .46, denying I'd been drinking.

And I almost bled to death.

Jeez.

They were very afraid I had given myself something called esophageal varices,

which is pretty much always fatal.

You literally hemorrhage from your esophagus from drinking and die. I lost a lot of blood.
Nine days in the ICU. And I tried my best to get a handle on the drinking after that by just not drinking.
I still wasn't going to go to meetings. I don't need that shit.

The infection came back.

I mean, my health was absolute trash.

My inducible liver enzymes tripled the upper limits than normal.

I had some other blood work way off.

So the infection came back.

Back on the damn pain pills.

Deaton has moved back to Maine,

so my connection with the Roxy's is gone.

I had an employee that I had recently hired who was out on bond for drug charges.

And obviously, before I hired him, I asked what and why and all that.

And I decided to give this guy a shot.

And none of my employees knew how bad things were with me or how bad they had gotten with the pain pills. Obviously, they knew the drinking had gotten really bad because I was passed out in my office and shit.
But I'd hid the pain pill thing from him pretty well. So as long as they weren't smelling alcohol, they thought everything was good with Ben.
I ended up buying pain pills off this dude. And it gets, like, really expensive.
Like, I can't keep sneaking this much money out without Aaron noticing. And he ended up getting me heroin one day.
And I hate needles, which sounds crazy because I'm covered in tattoos. I've gotten these since being clean.
And the first time he got it, I snorted it and I did not get the feeling I wanted from it. And he shot me up.
And then later that day, i shot myself up and within a week i had a 600 day heroin habit he shot you up how did that conversation go i was like i fucking hate needles you gotta show me how to do this and he got my hand where i don't even have veins anymore but i used to have huge veins. And he shot me up.

And so that progressed very, very quickly. What did that feel like?

You want me to give you an honest answer?

Yeah.

I felt like getting a hug from God,

like the most peaceful thing I've ever

felt in my entire life. Instantly.
Instantly. That void that I always have inside me that I've been trying to fill since I was 13 years old, that emptiness, it was gone in an instant.
It was gone. It was warm.
It just, it was euphoria.

And I didn't need anything else after that.

I had arrived.

And the entire journey getting to this point, I had been trying to find ways to change the way I felt.

And for the first time in my entire life,

I didn't want to change the way I felt after I hit that.

I was hooked immediately.

That was right around Halloween of 2013.

And Erin knew something was wrong. She knew something was wrong.

She knew something was wrong.

She didn't know what.

Andrew ended up getting arrested again,

and so I had to go meet the dope man to get my own heroin

because obviously I'm physically addicted.

I can't afford to be sick.

And that's what took me to South Memphis.

The old man Stan, this old 70-some-odd-year-old black dude that sells heroin in South Memphis. And so I'm making, you know, two, three trips a day out there to buy dope.
But I kept telling myself, this is going to be the last time. How'd you meet him? Andrew took me to meet him right before he'd gotten arrested again.
So I'd already met Stan. Now I'm approved to go to the dope man by myself.
What's the neighborhood like? It's Alter Hood. If you've watched any of my videos online, that's South Memphis, man.
But this guy's making $600 a day just off you. Just off me.
He was living large. Living large.
So just to give you some context on South Memphis, the infant mortality rate is higher than most or many third world nations. It's one of the deadliest zip codes in the state of Tennessee, which is one of the deadliest cities in America.
Statistically, young men in South Memphis are, and this one breaks my heart, they're more likely to be dead or incarcerated than they are to have a job or be in school. Geez.
Now, I didn't know any of this when I first started going out there. And actually, I hated South Memphis for the longest time because of what it was doing to me.
I wasn't looking at what I was doing to it. You just touched on it.
I'm pumping that much money a day into the dope economy out there. I have harmed that community with the amount of money I spent out there with bad people.
And I kept telling myself, this is it. I'm I'm doing.
That's like $200,000 a year. Stan told somebody he made $200,000.
And it didn't last a year. Just off you.
Just off me. Just off me.
It didn't last a year. It lasted 10 months this time.
I hated myself. I hated everything about myself.
I wanted to die. But more than that, I wanted to get sober and be there for my kids.
And so I punished myself. I had enough money.
I could have bought ounces of heroin at a time. I was going through like two, three grams a day.
I could have bought ounces at a time. And instead, I'm making three trips getting a gram at a time every day.
I can't believe it took me as long as it did for me to get pulled over. Like a white guy driving a brand-new Tahoe or a brand-new F-150 or a brand-new, or not brand-new, but a 68 GTO, multiple times a day.
It's very clear what I'm going out there to do. But I wouldn't buy a bunch at once because I kept telling myself, this is it.
I'm going to quit. This is it.
I'm going to quit. I'm going to taper off.
I'm going to taper off. It's just insanity took over my thinking.
Why did you want to quit? Why did I want to quit? Yeah. I never wanted to be on it to begin with.
That one time I got that hug from God and I was hooked, never had that feeling again. Never felt that good again, but I couldn't stop doing it.
But it was taking me away from my kids because I'm spending an hour and a half a day or more driving. So hold on, hold on.
So the initial, I've never done heroin, the initial high is like the best high you could ever imagine, and then it never happens again. Never happens again.
Well, you constantly have to increase the amount of dope you're doing. You can get pretty close to it again, or you can get it again, but it's taking more and more dope.
The more dope you're adding, the chances you're going to kill yourself keeps climbing. You know what I mean? And so I got to the point where I was shooting a gram at a time sometimes.
I mean, that's like, I don't know how I never OD'd. You never OD'd? Never.
I've always had a really weirdly high tolerance to things. So.
Well, I don't know if I'd say that. Drank your gallbladder out.
Yeah.

Yeah, that I did.

But I wanted to stop because it controlled

every aspect of my life.

I couldn't even sleep

without getting dope sick.

Did your wife know?

Well, it started in Halloween.

She figured it out.

End of June.

How'd she figure it out? She found a box of syringes in the garage. I was not very good at hiding things.
She'd known something was up. I mean, like, our business is falling apart.
I bounced payroll. That's never happened.
I look like someone coming out of a concentration camp.

I looked like death.

I weighed like 130 pounds maybe, you know.

And I'm not drinking.

So she knows it's not that.

She knew something was up.

She found that box of Riggs that day and lost it on me.

I've never seen her that upset in my whole life.

And it broke my heart. I didn't ever want it to come to that, you know? But it did.
And the 4th of July, she took the kids and left me, 2014. And I hopped in the GTO and went to where I go for comfort, South Memphis and uh i'd waited just to punish myself until i was

good and dope sick i wanted myself to suffer i had this sick self-hatred because of the

situation i created where did she go to her dad's town mississippi and um i'm going

i don't know 70 80 miles an hour down east Parkway in Memphis, and I ran a red light. And I T-boned an F-350.
And I spun. And I hit a light pole.
And the inside of the car burst into flames. I'm pinned underneath the steering wheel.
My face hit the steering wheel so hard that my teeth, I had to pull my lip off of my teeth. Like they'd gone all the way through it.
I've got bones sticking under my foot, and I'm engulfed in flames. I had a fire extinguisher in the car for that exact scenario should it ever happen, and I deployed it.

Nothing happened. I threw it out the window, which I guess alerted somebody that was out there that, hey, there's a live person still in that vehicle.
And this panhandler that I've been giving money to for like the last two, three weeks every time I drove by runs over and gets me out of the car. and runs over and had cash in the passenger seat

and he brought it to me, like smoking bills. My pistol permit and my debit, my USA debit cards were in my pocket with my driver's license and all that.
They melted. Like, in my wallet, they melted.
I did not have a burn on my body. Wow uh and nobody else saw this almost dude but he definitely was there like yeah i've always had people like i was an angel i'm like i don't i don't know because he gave me the money like i had it in my hand and i started with bones sticking out of my feet there's rounds popping off in the back seat of my car because it's in flames and it was full of ammo.
And I'm trying to hobble down the street to make it to the dope man's house because I'm like a mile away. The ambulance gets there.
They tackle me, take me to the hospital. You're trying to get heroin still after that? Still trying to get heroin.
I'm still dope sick. Look, this is the thing.
If you've never been dope sick, you don't understand it, you will do literally anything you have to do to prevent it. It is the most terrifying experience a human being can go through, both mentally and physically, but especially mentally.
It's bad. It's just, when I think about that day, I understand women who sell their bodies to feed their addiction.

I'm trying to walk down the street with my car in flames

and bones sticking out of my foot to get my fix.

I ended up getting a $35,000 insurance check for the GTO.

All the evidence of everything bad I'd been doing burned in the car. So I got in no trouble that day.
I went home, got another vehicle, and I burned that $35,000 in nine days. One of the ways, you know, my business was running into the ground.
Aaron and I had a massive firearms collection. Massive.
You know, tons of awesome stuff. Some Title II stuff, sub guns, suppressors.
And I'd started pawning my guns so that I could maintain my habit and try to keep the business from folding. And so when I got that check, I went and got a lot of guns out of Hawk, got them back.
And obviously, I bought a lot of drugs too geez Aaron Aaron came back from her dad's after I titled the car but but left again because I wasn't well I can get any better you know and I was trying everything I could to taper off of the heroin and do it on my own. And, you know, going to the firing range is one of the things I used to like to do to try to blow off steam.
And so, I think it was July 28th. I burned out of money, mostly.
Then I go to the warehouse with, I had a little fire range behind my warehouse, or inside the warehouse, it was long. I had a sub gun, two suppressors, like an AR and an AK maybe, and maybe a handgun.
Then I went and blew off some steam, and I waited until I was dope sick again because I refused to buy heroin until I was sick because I'm trying to taper myself off of it. And so I'm trying to, you know, it's insane the way I was, but in my head, in my fucked up thinking, it made sense.
And so I'm on my way home.

I went and got dope.

And I wouldn't let myself use it until I made it home.

That was part of the punishment that I was doing to myself.

I'm a mile from home.

And I get lit up by the cops.

And I'm in a beat-up pickup truck with six grams of dope, a machine gun, and two silencers. And you would have thought they pulled over Pablo Escobar.
The traffic stop moves from this gas station to my house because they feel they have cause to search my home. They think I'm selling machine guns.
I'm running guns and dope for the cartel. One of the detectives came over and told me they'd talked to Fort Campbell and they know I'm a disgruntled veteran and I stole all of this.
What are you fucking talking about? Like, the receipts are the shits of my house. I'm sick as hell handcuffed in the back of the car.
Our little cove, I had a house on the golf course, like outside looking and I was doing great. Our little cove had 30 some odd vehicles in it from five different agencies before this was over.
I had the DEA, Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, Shelby County, Memphis Police, and the ATF. I had showed the ATF how to read their own paperwork for my form, whatever it was, for my tax stamps, for the suppressors and the subgun.
And this goes on like 12 hours. I mean, it's hot as fuck.
I'm in the middle of asphalt cove, sitting in the cop car with no AC, handcuffed, dope sick, watching them come out of my house, taking my entire life savings in the form of firearms from me. One of the guys with the organized crime unit that was there told me early on in the day when this happened, it's like, if you're telling me the truth, and these are your guns, and this is your dope, we're going to work something out.
And 12 hours later, they finally realized I'm not Pablo Escobar. Those are my guns.
I legally hit every one of them, and I've never been in trouble in my life. So they take me down to this place off of Shelby Drive in Memphis.
We're like, all right, here's the deal. You know, we took all the shit from your house.
You're not getting your guns back. 53 firearms I took from the house.
You're going to snitch. You're going to go buy drugs, and we're going to watch everything.
You're going to wear a wire or something. You're going to give us some drug dealers.
I was like, sure. And sure as shit, they took the handcuffs off and gave me my keys to my pickup drug.
So I had no intentions of following through and snitching on anybody. never wanted to go to South Memphis again I get in my truck I crank it and I shut the door and I feel something and I know immediately what it is they have left dope in my vehicle and so my decision to never go to South Memphis again changed right then and and there.
I went right back to South Memphis. I bought more dope.
But I'm not going to use it until I get home. It's now 9, 10, maybe 11 o'clock at night.
I'm in the exact same spot I was earlier in the day and blue lights were behind me. I get pulled over twice in the same day with the same amount of dope.
This time, they do take me to jail. And they hit me with, I don't even remember how many counts.
It was absurd, like just wild.

Possession with intent to manufacture, sell, and distribute for crack cocaine, for heroin.

Six, possession of a firearm during the commission of a dangerous felony.

All in all, there were like 14 felony counts that they had gotten me on, which is ridiculous.

Like if I'm actually being honest,

because I didn't commit a felony. I wasn't selling drugs.
There is no dangerous felony,

but whatever. I had drugs and guns.
I'm not supposed to do that, I know.

But I think my life's over at this point. They took me to jail, obviously.
I had to call Erin,

obviously. She filed for divorce, I think, on her 10th anniversary while I was in jail, which I had that coming.

I had destroyed that poor woman's life, you know.

They end up, my dealer, old man Stan, comes and bonds me out because I had spent so much with him.

He's convinced I'm going to continue to. Somehow they mixed up paperwork in jail and they let me out when they hadn't brought all the charges on the other case against me.
and so I bonded out of jail

and immediately had a felony warrant

for the first on the other case against me. And so I bonded out of jail

and immediately had a felony warrant

for the first traffic stop.

Apparently, they only booked me in on the second one

and forgot to add the first one.

So they add those on and put out a felony warrant for me.

And so I go on the run.

I moved into a trap house with some guys I had literally just met that night in South Memphis.

What's a trap house?

The trap house is a house where narcotics and women are bomb sold.

It's, you know, a trap.

It's a spot.

It is the single source of every bit of pain and suffering in any neighborhood they exist in. It's hell.
That's what it is. It's hell.
I had nowhere else to go. Out of warrant, I couldn't go home.
My wife didn't want anything to do with me. I had no idea what my kids knew or didn't know because, like I said, we'd hidden all of this from them.
Daddy getting arrested is going to... I don't even know how to have that conversation with them.
I'd go into Heidi, basically. This dope boy.
Then obviously all the dope boys in South Memphis knew how much money I'd been spending, and they all wanted to know me. So I was welcomed with open arms out there.
And the one that ran Melrose Street, I'll actually say his name because he's dead now, Rodney Cotton. He used to go by, named Fat Boy or Hot Rod.
He kind of took me in because he was convinced I was going to teach him how to run businesses. I don't know what he had in mind, but basically put me to work in security at a trap house

out there, which was odd because I'm the only white guy in the hood and I'm deciding who

can and cannot get into the trap.

This went on for a few weeks.

What did you see inside the traphouses? Everything you could imagine. What does that mean? I've witnessed murder.
I've witnessed attempted rapes. I've witnessed overdoses.
I've witnessed people do unimaginable things that even with my background and experience can't wrap my mind around for a hit of dope. Crack in particular.
Like what? You won't want to hear it if I tell you. I've seen people do the most debased, dehumanizing things you can ever imagine

because their addiction commanded them to.

They had become complete and total slaves to a substance

and in turn complete and total slaves to whoever controls that substance.

I didn't know the true depths of human depravity until I was out there, until I lived in it and saw it. And all of my hope and faith in humanity died on that street.
My hope for having a future died on that street. I was going to kill myself out there.
I was interrupted and then ended up in handcuffs again.

How are you going to do it? With a knife. I was just going to cut my throat.
It was the only way I could do it. Because I refused to touch heroin after I got arrested.
I would not go back to it. I was still smoking crack, but I refused to touch heroin.
And I was afraid that if I tried to overdose,

because once you've shot up heroin,

there's no other way to kill yourself.

It's an embrace from God.

It's a painless way to go.

My fear was that because my tolerance was so high,

I would try to kill myself, and I wouldn't, and I would end up addicted again.

And I would rather die than have that happen.

And so I was going to cut my throat with K-Bar.

How long were you

in and out of those?

Five years.

I get this,

this is...

You spent five years

on that shit?

In trap houses?

In and out.

In and out.

But there,

my whole story

is punctuated

with highs and lows

where everything looks great.

I wasn't homeless

for five years.

I wasn't running

from that warrant

I'm sorry. In and out, in and out.
But my whole story is punctuated with highs and lows where everything looks great. I wasn't homeless for five years.
I wasn't running from that warrant for five years. But all in, I was battling South Memphis for five years.
That run stopped when they found me on that warrant. And, you know, we were talking about Godwinks.
I feel like this was a missed Godwink on my behalf. But maybe not, because if I'd taken it, I wouldn't be sitting here with you today.
Veterans Court refused to take my case. I did serve long enough to be eligible for Veterans Court.
So even though I don't get, like, VA benefits out, I was eligible for that. They wouldn't take my case because of the gun charges.
They were convinced the feds are going to come after me. Now, I knew that wasn't the case because I legally owned the guns and I wasn't actually selling drugs.
So, I had faith that justice would prevail. But the drug court judge heard about my case and decided to take a chance on me.
And he told me that if I would sign up for his program, he would send me to rehab and he'd pay for it. And I jumped at it.
And so after spending two months out there in the traps, that run, I was actually excited. I thought, you know, things are going to be better.
And he sent me to rehab. I spent 54 days in there.

And, like, I was serious about it.

I wanted to be clean.

I did not want to go back to that life at all.

I graduated the rehab program and got off to a fairly good start on drug court.

I think I got released back into the free world early November.

And I made contact with Aaron.

I wanted to get back into kids' lives.

I mean, because this just hit them completely out of the blue.

Like, they didn't see any of this coming, you know?

So from July to November,

there had been very minimal interaction with my kids.

They didn't know what the fuck was going on.

Or, I don't know what they knew.

Let's put it that way.

And, you know, Erin had filed for divorce.

Her attorney told her it would help her

if she got a restraining order against me.

And so she did that. And they served me with it in the middle of drug court in front of everybody on my birthday.
Like, that was humiliating. Mostly because I've never laid a finger on her.
I've never threatened any of them. I've never made her be afraid of me or the kids or any of that.
But she had to attest that I've done all of those things on this piece of paper. So I did what any good addict would do, and I went and got high over that.
Now, when they released me from rehab, they court ordered me into Rebo's, which is a halfway house in Memphis, sober spelled backwards. And one of the biggest rules in a sober living house is you can't get high.
And I did that.

And so I knew I was about to go back to jail.

So right back to South Memphis I went.

I just went on the run.

And then I actually had a conversation with Erin that her attorney did that without her knowledge or something.

I don't remember what it was.

And I started realizing how bad I fucked up by going on the run and getting high again. I don't remember what it was.
And I started realizing

like how bad I fucked up

by going on the run

and getting high again.

I went and turned myself in.

And sure enough,

I mean, obviously,

I went to jail, you know.

But the drug court judge was,

he's going to give me another chance.

Like, he sees this a lot.

He expected it, blah, blah, blah.

I was banned from that halfway house.

And they were like, we're just going to leave you in jail until we figure out what to do with you. Because you can't go home.
You can't go back to the halfway house. We don't know what to do with you.
And so I spent my birthday, or not my birthday, I spent Thanksgiving in jail. They kept me.
God, they probably kept me a month that time with no bond. Like, there's no hope of getting out.
You get out when the judge says you can get out. And I'm pissed the judge off at this point because he took a chance on me.
Even though we expected it to happen, he's mad. They finally let me out December 17th.
And I'll never forget this, that day in court, because the jail backs up to the courthouse. It's literally like underneath the court kind of.
So they took me into the courtroom from jail. And this guy named Brian Owens comes up to me and asked me, he's like, you tired of living like this, dude? I was like, yeah, I'm really tired of living like this.
And he looked me in the eye for a minute. He's like, you know, you don't have to.
And I don't know why that simple yet incredibly profound statement hit me like a ton of bricks, dude. Like I started bawling like in the middle of court.
Like it was weird, you know, but it just hit me. Because I could tell by the way he said it.
This guy that I'm just now meeting for the first time, in the way he said that, I could tell he's been where I was. He literally where I was, I come to find out later, he had been standing on the other side of that wall years ago as a client in drug court.
And today he works for that court. But I could tell this guy knew something.
He knew a way out of this, you know. And he told me that he was going to get me out of jail that day and then he wanted me to meet him at a Narcotics Anonymous meeting that night.
Now I'd been to N.A. back in California but I just used it as a place to pick up chicks.
I didn't pay any attention. But I would do whatever I had to do to get Brian to get me out of jail.
And I would do whatever I had to do to not live that way anymore. And I meant it.
Like with every fiber of my being, I meant that shit. I was dead set on, I'm going to do this.
And so he got me out of jail. I found out after I left the jail that day

that the judge was dead serious when he said, I can't go home and I can't go to the halfway house. But they forgot to figure out what to do with me, so I had to figure that out, which I'm sure was 100% intentional, right? They wanted to see what I was going to do.
So now I'm a free man, and it's the middle of December right before Christmas, and I have nowhere to go. I'm on the streets.
Am I going to fuck up or am I going to do right? And I think that's what they were trying to figure out. And I did right.
I got with my dad and got into an extended stay motel. I went to an NA meeting.
First time I ever saw her.

And I was serious about doing it.

And I decided I wanted to try to fix things with Erin.

She's a mother of five of my kids, and divorcing her

was something I could not wrap my mind around.

No matter how bad she wanted to, you know,

she spent all those years thinking I was the one for her,

knowing the problems that I had,

Thank you. divorcing her.
It was something I could not wrap my mind around. No matter how bad she wanted to, you know, she spent all those years thinking I was the one for her, knowing the problems that I had, and here we are with the problems front and center.
What are we going to do? I had that conversation with her. We decided to reconcile.
And so I think it was Christmas Eve of 2014, I moved back into the house with her and the kids. In hindsight, it was a terrible idea.

Did you blame her for the restraining order?

Were you upset about that?

I was upset about it.

I was hurt more than anything.

I didn't blame her for the relapse.

I will never blame anybody else for that.

I make my own decisions. And when I choose to go get high about something, that's on me, not them.
When we went to court for the restraining order, because the way they do these things, they'll issue it just based on the word of the woman. And that's good.
I'm glad they do that. And then you have a hearing about it to decide if it's going to stand or get tossed out.
And when we sat down in the courtroom,

they start asking Aaron all these questions like,

when did Mr. Owen strike you?

When did he do this?

And she's like, no, no, none of that ever happened.

And the judge is basically like, well,

then you can't have a restraining order.

What are we doing?

And so it just got, like, what I was afraid of

was that Aaron was going to lie and say I had, you know,

put my hands on her or something,

which nothing like that ever happened in that marriage.

Were you sharing needles?

No.

No.

Never not once.

In fact, this is one of the reasons I was able to hide it so well.

I was the worst person I knew.

I didn't have friends.

Do you think you put your family in danger?

Yeah, I definitely put them in danger. There's no doubt about that.
So how could you blame her? I didn't have friends. Do you think you put your family in danger? Yeah, I definitely put them in danger.

There's no doubt about that. So how could you blame her? I don't.
Yeah, I don't blame her at all.

In fact, hindsight being 20-20, I wish she hadn't let me move back in.

I had no business being around my kids right then at all, or her.

I didn't deserve to be sleeping in that house that we had worked to pay for together.

Yeah.

A thousand things could have gone wrong.

Something must have went wrong.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't handle guilt well. Never have.
I drink that guilt. I always have.
And I don't think things were meant to work out. Too much damage had been done.
And it was a terrifying thing to try to accept that because you start trying to think, how am I going to raise a family with her? With the exception of this 10-month period, all things considered, I've been a pretty stellar dad, you know, outside looking in. Now, you know that that's not true because you've heard all the fucked up stuff that I was doing, but I was still telling myself the lie that I wanted the world to see.
And I'm trying to figure out how am I going to raise these kids in a broken home now? What's going to happen with my cases?

I was looking at a lot of prison time

if I fucked up drug court.

And so much damage had been done

to the relationship with Aaron and I.

And I just, I don't think there was any fixing it.

I don't think there was any fixing it. I don't think there was.
What happened? I moved out in February. And I think it was February.
Stayed clean. I was working program, got a sponsor, started working steps.
Just taking recovery seriously. Like, very seriously.

So you weren't drinking?

Mm-mm.

No, well, so drug court, from the day I signed to drug court, they drug test you randomly.

And one of the tests they do now is called an ethanol glucuronide test that tests for alcohol metabolites going back 80 hours.

And thank God they do, because if they weren't doing that, I'd have been drinking like a motherfucker thinking I'm going to cheat the test, you know?

So, yeah, I stayed sober from November, God, almost until the next November.

A lot happened in that gap. I know everybody out there has to be just as frustrated as I am when it comes to the BS and the rhetoric that the mainstream media continuously tries to force feed us.
And I also know how frustrating it can be to try to find some type of a reliable news source. It's getting really hard to find the truth and what's going on in the country and in the world.
And so one thing we've done here at Sean Ryan Show is we are developing our newsletter.

And the first contributor to the newsletter that we have is a woman, former CIA targeter. Some of you may know her as Sarah Adams, call sign super bad.
She's made two different appearances here on the Sean Ryan Show. and some of the stuff that she has uncovered and broke on this show is just absolutely mind-blowing.
And so I've asked her if she would contribute to the newsletter and give us a weekly intelligence brief. So it's going to be all things terrorists, how terrorists are coming up through the southern border, how they're entering the country, how they're traveling, what these different terrorist organizations throughout the world are up to.
And here's the best part. The newsletter is actually free.
We're not going to spam you. It's about one newsletter a week, maybe two if we release two shows.
The only other thing that's going to be in there besides the intel brief is if we have a new product or something like that. But like I said, it's a free CIA intelligence brief.
Sign up. Link's in the description or in the comments.
We'll see you in the newsletter. All right, Ben, we're back from the break.
So we are at Aaron. Aaron, yep.
Aaron left with the kids. Aaron left with the kids.
This is like the end of 2014. We decided to reconcile.
So hold on. Let me recap because we had about an hour break there for lunch.
So you moved in Christmas time. Yes.
Now it's February. Aaron takes off.
You did not start drinking again. What happened? Why'd you leave? So actually, I left.
You left. I left.
And I think it was February, March. I just realized that, well, I've been trying to avoid this because I only want to put my business out there, but it unavoidable so aaron had an affair all right and and i knew this when i moved back in in december and it happened while i was in jail and if i'm being completely honest i can't blame her i mean i ran her life into the ground i had not physically touched her in a year you know everything was falling apart and she didn't think there's any chance we were ever gonna work out So I don't blame her for that, but it is part of what played into my decision to move out.

Did you ever have infidelity with her?

No, no.

Through all that shit?

Through all that shit, I did not.

Wow.

You would not have expected that.

Well, I don't think she expected it either, but it is the reality.

So you couldn't forgive her for that? I thought I could, but no. I definitely could not.
I definitely could not. How'd you find out? I just knew.
Finally, she admitted it. She's part of me knew.
Something seemed off. Did you know them? Oh, yeah.
Friend? Employee. An employee? Yeah.
Are they still together? Oh, God, no. I don't even know if they ever even saw each other again.
Yeah. So in the middle of all this, we'll be back up to December.
Well, hold on. How did you handle that? Because you're sober.
I'm sober, and, well, I'm just going to own it. I was still a manipulative ass at the time, and the only thing standing in between me and living in my home with my children was the judge telling me she didn't want me there.
So the way I handled it was basically to tell her, look, we can work through this. You just got to let me come home.
You know, and part of me— So you knew before you went home. I knew before I went home.
That was the ammo I used to get her to tell the judge to let me come back to my house. Now, part of that was necessity.
I have to have a place to live. This extended stay wasn't going to work.
I missed my kids.

I was sober.

I wanted to rebuild my life.

And I wanted to rebuild my business and fix my marriage.

I did genuinely want all of those things.

Did you still love her before you moved back in?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I've known this woman since I was 12.

She birthed my daughter. Yeah, like 100%?

Looked like a little uncertainty there. It was different.
It was a different kind of love. I've still got love in my heart for Aaron to this day, and I always will, but not the kind that is required to be married to somebody.
You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And so I moved back in, And my understanding was that all the bullshit that come out from either of our side had come out and it was all out in the open um and i get a phone call new year's eve from my landlord or my landlord's attorney now keep in mind i haven't paid a rent on my warehouse in six months because I was too busy spending my money on heroin or being in jail or running from warrants to handle things.
So my understanding was that my warehouse had been seized and my assets and belongings of that warehouse no longer belonged to me. And Aaron confirmed that was the case.
Well, I get this phone call on New Year's Eve from my landlord's attorney asking me if we had decided not to get my inventory out of the warehouse. Now, keep in mind, I had over a million dollars in inventory in this warehouse.
So come to find out, he had not seized any of my stuff and just wanted me to move my business out and let him have his warehouse back.

Problem was I had until midnight New Year's Eve of 2014.

And I didn't find this out until the day of.

My parents and my wife had known for months that this was the case and that my business was not done.

It was, in fact, sitting there waiting on me to pick it up and move it somewhere else and simply turn it back on I went ballistic you know smashed my phone I may have broken my hand punched in a brick wall I mean I snapped dude that was it like from that point forward I have accepted this is not there's too much resentment couple that with the fact that I don't even know how I'm going to deal with the infidelity. Like, it's, I just can't do this, all right? And I didn't know what to do because I still had to have a place to live.
And so I just tried to tough it out, man. I spent a lot of time with my kids.
What did you do with your kids? When? When you went back. You said you spent a lot of time with your kids.
I spent a lot, yeah. So there's a part.
What was that like? I remember rebuilding bonds, dude. Kids are resilient.
How old are your kids at this point? Oh, they were, I want to say 9, 10. Let's see, this would have been December 2014.
So Jacob would have been 9, Jackson would have been 10. Lily and the twins were 3, 3, and 4, almost 4, 4, and 5.
We just kind of picked up right back where we left off. Watching nature shows together, going hiking.
There's an IH park. I mean, was there a lot of relationship you had to rebuild? Trust and the fact that you're going to be there? It was dicey for a few days.
That's it? That was it. Because when I was living in that extended stay, Aaron could tell that something had changed in me and that I was trying to stay clean.
And the kids came and stayed with me some of that extended stay. So we had gotten most of the real rough part out of the way.
I've always been very close to my kids. So even though...
What was the rough part? Just the uncomfortability, like them staying with me and crying at bedtime, wanting to go see Mommy, you know. But they had a lot of questions.
They really didn't. They really didn't.
They didn't want to know why you were in there? In the extended stay? Yeah. Well, they did, and that was the rough part, was explaining to them, Mom and Dad are getting divorced.
And that was just the hardest thing I've ever had to tell my kids. Did they have any inclination? I mean, you were gone for, I think you said, 10 months.

I was addicted to heroin for 10 months before the arrest.

I was home for most of that.

I would make my runs to the dope track, get my dope.

But then you were living at the trap houses.

So that wasn't 10 months.

That was four months I was out there, this run in the traps.

And so I don't really know how to explain it um we just kind of picked right up where we left off it was strange how did you tell your kids you're getting divorced i didn't erin did and then christmas eve we told him never mind were not we're not. Like, Merry Christmas.
And, you know, we had a real happy Christmas. Everything was great.
But then New Year's Eve came, and I found that out about the business, and it was just the totality. It was too much.
And I also knew that, like, as far as my part went, like, I'm not saying she did all the damage. I'd done tons of damage.
This is all my fault to begin with. So I owned that.
And I knew in the back of my head that she might think she can get over all this, but she's never going to trust me again. I have destroyed our lives.
Our life savings invested in a firearms collection has been stolen by the police. I'll never get them back.
That one, I actually sued the state of Tennessee trying to get those back. Lost because I took too long to file it.
But, you know, the business we had poured blood, sweat, and tears into that my kids had sacrificed hours and hours of time with me, I ran that into the ground. like so i'm not sitting here trying to say it's because of the infidelity it's because of the warehouse it was the totality of of all of these things.
We destroyed that marriage. And so I spent a lot of time with the kids January and February.
And part of that was because I wanted to spend time with my kids. Part of it was because I wanted to get the fuck away from the house.
I wanted to be away from her. I was so mad.
And, you know, I don't know if you've ever done 12-step recovery, but in the rooms, they always say resentments are the number one offender. Resentment is the most common thing that sends people back on a relapse.
And I was taking my recovery pretty seriously at this point in time. So I was trying to avoid resentments, which meant avoiding her in the house.
So we spent a lot of time out in the woods, a lot of time fishing as March rolled around, a lot of time hiking. And I started hanging out with this other guy in drug court named Thomas, who loved fishing too.
And we'd go fishing all the time. We'd go shooting together.
His parents lived on a bunch of land. And before long, I had opened up to Thomas about what was going on at home.
He's like, bro, just come stay up here, man. And so I was kicking that idea around about going to stay with Thomas because he lived up in Millington near the Navy base.
We were in Lakeland, which is a suburb of Memphis at the time, in the house that I bought when I got the job with Pfizer. I mean, we hadn't moved.
And my other best friend at the time was this little kid named Brandon Kelly. I call him a kid.
He had some endocrine problems and literally looked like he was a child, like 14 years old. He was really 25, but I met him in jail.
I actually met him and Thomas both in jail. All three of us were on drug court.
And so we just started hanging out a bunch. And then, you know, getting into early spring, Narcotics Anonymous does a lot of functions.
They'll do outings, like events where just people in recovery can go hang out at things that normally happen in Memphis. It's just a group of people that aren't doing drugs.
It goes to these things. And so I started hanging out with that crowd that's going to the stuff all around Memphis.
And I had found an NA home group with Brandon Kelly. It was his home group, and that's where I met Jess.
I had actually met her back in January at that Brian Owens guy. His wife or girlfriend at the time was celebrating her sober birthday, and I met Jess at that birthday, but we didn't much like we played trivia crack back and forth you know and texted a little bit but nothing weird um but like I can tell like she's somebody I enjoy spending time around and uh so when the events picked back up in spring you know I found myself around her more more.
And then one day she invited me and her boyfriend at the time to go to the Quentin Tarantino movie fest they were having to drive in. And I went, and he no-showed, and we'd watch like four or five Quentin Tarantino movies.
And then the next day she invites me to go fishing with her. And I was like, well, hell yeah.
You know what I'm thinking. Out at Shelby Forest, the Mississippi River, middle of nowhere.
I get out there. Not only does she not have fishing rides, she has brought her 10-year-old daughter with her.
And I was like, oh, God. You know, what the hell's happening? So as an aside, to this day, I have not gone fishing with Jess.
To this day. We're going to fix that at some point.
But we ended up hiking around Shelby Forest. And this is weird because I've lived in Memphis for almost a while.
Jess, what's going on here? Reeling him in. She was fishing the whole time.
Yes, she was. And it worked.

It worked. I never knew Shelby Forrest existed.
I've been in Memphis 10 years, and I never saw this place. As much as I love the outdoors, it was mind-blowing to me.
It's this huge, like hundreds of acres of woods and hills and mountains and lakes, and it's on the Mississippi. So me, Jess, and her daughter, who is 10, I'm meeting for the first time, are out there hiking for the entire day, hours, catching, I caught a cottonmouth water moccasin, like blew her mind, you know, catching turtles.

Like it was just, we had a fucking blast out there.

And I didn't want it to stop.

I didn't want it to stop. I had not been that happy in the company of another human being in as long as I could remember.

Like I finally felt the connection with somebody. And this was just as purely as friends.
But from that day forward, and that was, I do remember the date, it was April 20th of 2015, Jess and I became inseparable. Wherever I went, she went.
Wherever she went, I went. And, like, it just, people started calling us the NA power couple.
We're not even together. I'm still married, you know? But I realized because of the way I felt around her that I, my biggest fear leaving Aaron, will I ever have anybody that I can be comfortable around again? Will anybody put up with me? Because, well, we've been talking for several hours.
You know I'm kind of a lot to deal with, right? So I had this fear that I wouldn't find love again, and I've got a terrifying fear of being alone too. So I wasn't convinced that like Jess is who I'm going to go be in love with.
It just convinced me that I am able to be happy in the presence of somebody else. And so when I decided I was going to move out and move in with Thomas and take him up on that offer, Jess went with me.
Now we're still just friends, you know, we're literally sleeping in the same bed and still just friends, which I know sounds crazy. I tried to kiss her one time.
She cried. That was interesting.
The next day she kissed me. And then, you know, know from there on things are physical but this is like months went in that gap so then you know i told erin like let's go ahead and do this divorce um i'm moving on um which is what she had told me to do to begin with and so she was like okay yeah neither of us wanted it but it's what needs to happen, that kind of thing.
And Jess and I pretty much moved into Thomas' house and started building a life together. Like, we were going to start brush fire and black rifle and re-tech in a garage behind his house.
We're going to start the businesses back over. And we did.
Like, we actually did. And we're running an econ business out of his garage.
July, I think, comes around. And Jess had met all the kids at this point.
All the kids love her. Her daughter loved me.
Now, we haven't told Aaron that we're an item. And so, that was a big landmine we were waiting on.
And it ended about like you can imagine it would.

Actually, I don't know how it would land.

I mean, you guys are divorced.

Well, we're not divorced yet.

Corporate.

We're not divorced yet.

I mean, there's a lot of history there.

There is a lot of history.

I could see it being a relief.

Well.

I mean, there's got to be a lot of weight being your spouse through that time. And I make terrible decisions around what.
Okay. All right.
So I'm just going to preface that. All right.
We've come a long way since then. I've grown a lot as a human being.
I was still sleeping with Aaron. And so when she found out I was sleeping with Jess, she sat Jess down and said, hey, just so you're aware,

I'm still sleeping with him too.

And Jess acted like she didn't care.

But in reality, it ripped her guts out.

Time out.

Let's switch seats.

Oh, I love this.

I love this. Oh, okay.
Jess, welcome to the show. Thank you.
So, a couple questions before we get into the sleeping debacle here. Why did you cry when he tried to kiss you? I honestly have no idea.
I think I was, I'm not very big on physical affection, I guess. I know that sounds weird.
My family is, like my dad's part is Japanese, so I wasn't raised with a whole lot of physical affection, and I think it caught me off guard, and I wasn't quite sure if I wanted it or not because I knew he had a wife. And, like, I knew he had five kids.
And I was like, I don't know if I want five kids. And I didn't know what I wanted at that point.
You're a former addict, too? Yes. How long have you been sober? A little more than Ben.

It's like five and a half years.

My clean date is June 1st, 2019.

What did you see in Ben that made you fall in love with him?

Were you aware of his past?

I wasn't aware of all of it.

But, you know, I had my own past, so I wasn't totally worried about that. I think what really attracted me to him was I love nature and I love music.
And I love smart people because I've always wanted to be, like, really smart, and I don't really see myself like that. But he was.
And as you've heard in his story, he's extremely intelligent.

And it's very hard to find somebody that is that intelligent and nerd-like who also listens to metal and likes nature and hiking.

And I found all of that.

And Ben, Andy was funny.

He made me laugh.

Like, if you can make me laugh, that's a big plus.

Is there a... How do I say this? Is there a certain level of comfortability knowing that the person that you're falling in love with is also an addict? Wow, that's a good question.
There was a little—I was comfortable in knowing that I wouldn't be judged for who I was. And I think there was comfortability there because I was raised by an addict.
Like, my mom's a crack addict, was. so but at the same time I know how how bad it can get, how much of a train wreck all of that can turn into.
So it was comforting knowing that I had somebody that could understand me, but it was also terrifying at the same time. I mean, the reason I'm asking, I didn't, I mean, my addictions weren't like these.

But, you know, my wife is going to be 16 years sober this year.

That's awesome.

And we kind of talked about my coke addiction, drinking, benzos, opiates, all that shit.

When I met her, I'd found out,

you know,

that she was sober because she wouldn't have

a drink at dinner.

And I remember the first,

I remember when it hit me,

I had asked her,

I said,

I hate it when people ask me

what my hobbies are

because I don't have

any fucking hobbies

other than work, drugs, booze, and women. And I just asked her, how did she find what her new hobbies were? And she kind of went on and told me, you know, like, well, that's a tough question and it takes some time.
And she was so transparent. I just knew what we had was real and that I didn't have to hide anything.
I could be fully transparent with somebody, and that's probably the first time in my life I could do that. Is that kind of how it works? Yeah, pretty much.
Yeah. And it was the same thing with Ben.
I was able to be completely transparent. I'm a very open book anyway, but there's certain things that I won't.
But with him, it was like we were just connected instantly. I just knew that's who I was supposed to be with for the rest of my life.
So what happened when you found out he was sleeping with Aaron still? He was actually blackout drunk at that point. And this was like right into the first of our relationship.
So I didn't know what to do. I'm newly clean at this time, the first time since I was 13.
And I didn't want to mess that up. I wasn't really sure what I was supposed to be doing with him blackout drunk.
And I didn't know he had been drinking at this point. I had found like a vodka bottle in the truck.
Like I was going to the store and found this, came back home, confronted him about it. And if you know Ben, like if he's drunk, he will never admit it.
He'll be slurring and still not admitting that he drank. So I called Aaron once it got so bad that he was blackout drunk and he wouldn't wake up.
And I was freaking out. So I called Aaron because she had moved into her own place at this point.
I was like, please come to the house. I don't know what to do with him because she's been married.
You know, she's been with him for so long. She knew how to deal with this.
So she came over and we're smoking a cigarette outside. And she's like, just so you know, or she said, are you sleeping with Ben? She's like, I know you're sleeping together in the same bed.
I mean, are you sleeping with Ben? And I just felt this weight because I didn't want to say yes. And, but I knew it was better to tell the truth.
I was like, yes, we are sleeping together. She's like, oh, because he's sleeping with me too.
And dude, I like every, just everything in me got ripped out. Like I felt like I was going to die.
And the thing about me, I'll never let anybody know if I'm hurt. Like I got this, this protection wall.
And I was like, ah, guys suck. And that's all I said.
Like I just, I just totally nonchalant. I did not let her know it bugged me in the least, but inside I was fucking dying.
And, you know, we go back into Ben and she checks on him and I'm living in her house and their house at this point. And, you know, she's got the kids in her own little apartment and she leaves.
She's like, he's going to be fine. Let him sleep it off.
And that was it. And she left.
And it was just, so I'm like sitting there and I stay up all night because I'm afraid it's going to die on me. I'm afraid something bad's going to happen.
Um, because my, my mom had overdosed and we thought she was asleep and she she was actually dead. So to this day, I still have a horrible fear.
Your mom overdosed? Yes. You found your mom dead? I was two houses down and my sister came and got me and was like, mom's dead.
So I ran over the two houses away and saw her they had had her on the floor at that point.

But ever since then, I was terrified when I see people sleeping for too long.

So I was afraid he was going to die on me.

So I literally stayed up all night, mad as fuck at him.

Like I wanted to kill him.

But at the same time, I loved him so much that I just, I just sat up and watched him

all night.

Like I'm sure I was sobbing half of the night because I couldn't believe that he had been cheating on me with his wife. I mean, like, how bad does that sound? It was a bad time.
How did you confront him? So the next day when he finally came to, and he drinks so much that even when he comes to, he's still kind of drunk. I was like, so I had a conversation with Aaron, and he wasn't expecting what I said.
I was like, she said, y'all are still sleeping together. And I think he denied it, I think, for a good little bit.
Until I was like, dude, I mean, come on, she's your wife.

It's, I understand. I really didn't understand because I've never, I've never understood infidelity.
I don't, I don't at all. So it really hurt and it hurt that he was denying it.
And I think I finally just came out, just fucking say it, Just fucking tell me what happened. And he admitted it.

And, you know, like Aaron was texting him just nonstop.

About what?

About us.

Was there jealousy?

Oh, I'm sure there was.

I mean, you know, he's been her person since they were 12.

And now this junkie bitch comes in the picture and just takes him away. You know, so there's a lot of hatred.
There's a lot of animosity. And now I'm living in her house even, which that was the wrong thing to do.
That was very bad judgment on our part. And yeah, so she's, I mean, they're still married at this point.
They don't get actually legally divorced till like a year later. So maybe even two years later.
So there was a lot of anger. I'm sorry, my mouth is so dry right now.
So how did you, I mean, where did it go from there? How did you get over that? I did. Well, this will go into Ben's story a little bit.
There was another woman in the mix. And this one was way fucking worse than Aaron.
So then all my anger went from Aaron to this other girl. So, you know, I understood.

He was with Aaron for years.

They were married.

You know, they'd been friends since they were 12.

I was just some chick he met in NA.

So even though I was very angry that he lied about it

and that he wasn't forthcoming in our relationship,

I did understand it.

I got it.

This other chick, though, that was...

Who was the next one?

Funny enough, it was another girl that he met in NA.

Ben was just jumping for a little while there.

Just us three, but there was a point in time...

Just us three.

Hey, man. There was a point where it was all three of us at one time.
Like, he was seeing her, he was seeing me, he was seeing this other chick. And I actually found out about the other chick after he goes to jail.
I hear a knock at the door. I had found out that I'm pregnant with Ben's kid like six weeks before this.
And Ben goes to jail. He had had another relapse.
I hear a knock at the door and I open it. There's nobody there, but there's like this manila envelope about this big.
And I open it. I'm like, what the fuck is this? I thought someone was trying to sell some shit.
So I open it, and it's just pages and pages of emails of him and this other chick. And on the front of the envelope, it says, hi, my name is Jeremy.
I believe that you would like to know that your boyfriend is fucking my wife. And that's what it says on the front.
So Well, now I through these emails. I'm pregnant with his kid and he's in jail for a relapse.
I'm reading all these emails like some of them are raunchy as fuck. Like this was a nasty bitch.
And I just, and then all my aggression kind of leaves from the Aaron thing. And now I just want to kill this bitch and kill him.
So it was a bad whirlwind for a minute there. Why did you stay with him? Well, one, I was pregnant.
So I remember he called from jail, and this was before he even knew that I knew anything. And I had threatened to have an abortion.
So I was like, well, you're fucking Aaron. You're fucking this chick.
Why would I keep this child? Like, why would we start a family together? I thought you loved me. And, you know, clearly I'm just like sobbing on the phone, and he's denying it at first.
And I read him some of the emails. He can't deny it anymore.
And I just, I loved him. I really had just such a deep amount of love for him that I just, I was like, maybe we can work through it.
And I had seen my mom and my dad work through insurmountable type of, the things that they have gone through, like my dad was not an addict, alcoholic, nothing. My mom was.
And the things that I had seen them work through and make it through, I guess that was, that was my model that I lived by, that I, that I went by. And I was just like, you know, people can work things out.
Of course, right then I wanted to kill him. I wanted to slit his throat right then.
But, you know, later on, I started thinking about it, and I was like, we're going to have a kid together. And I wanted to—I knew I love him.
I knew he was the one that God made for me. I knew I was supposed to be with him.
And I was like, I'm just going to make it work. We're going to make something work.
I mean, I'm not saying you made the wrong decision. You guys obviously seem very happy today and you're very successful in what you guys are doing together.
But I mean, weren't you worried about, you know, with his history? I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified.
Weren't you worried about not just being hurt more, but subjecting your daughter to this? How old was your daughter? Yeah, so she was 10. His oldest was 10.
My oldest is 10. So, and the kids got along great too.
So, but I was terrified about, you know, I wasn't too worried about Maddie. He was so good with kids.
So he was really good with, Maddie is my oldest, and he was so good to her. I had never seen a, Maddie's father is an addict as well.
And he was not a good father. He was not a good man.
He was a good man, but the addiction took over, and there was a lot of bad stuff that Maddie had to endure. So when Ben came into the picture, there was a happiness there.
Like he was actually a father to her, and she loved him. And I wasn't so much worried about Maddie.
I was worried about getting hurt again. I was worried about the trust issue because I knew I would never be able to trust him again.
And that was actually the problem for years. I didn't trust him.
And actually, because that girl was someone that he met in N.A., and we knew everybody. Everybody knew us as the N.A.
power couple. So when everybody found out that he cheated on me with another bitch from NA, like, I was mortified.
Did you know her? I had never met her, luckily. What about your own addictions? I mean, sober for less than a year at this point? Yes.
Or I had just graduated for—or graduated, I had just gotten a year clean, I believe, like probably a month before this happened. So I was one year clean, first year I'd had clean since I was 13 years old.
Were you concerned that this would trigger your own addictions again? Absolutely. Yeah.
And... Did it? So I didn't go back to heroin, but I remember the night that I found out, I downed a bottle of NyQuil.
Knowing I was pregnant and knowing that it might hurt my child, I just wanted to not be alive at that point. And addicts are selfish.
And even though I had a year clean,

I was still very much a selfish addict.

And I got a bottle of NyQuil,

and half of me didn't want to keep this baby. Like, half of me, I was like, maybe it's just better

if I'm just going to drink this bottle of NyQuil

and let nature take its course.

And he was in jail anyway.

Nobody could stop me.

And, like, when I found out, I called Thomas. Thomas denied it.
I called Brian Owens. Brian Owens says he didn't know anything about it.
I later find out that like all the guys knew. They, you know, the guy code, you don't say anything.
And I don't have girlfriends. I don't like women.
They don't like me. All my friends were guys.
So not only was I betrayed by him, I was betrayed by all of our friends. And that's how I felt.
So like, I just felt like the whole world had shit on me. And I just, just down that bottle of NyQuil and fell asleep.
But I didn't do anything after that. Like I woke up and I was like, what the fuck did I just do? And that was it.

I was good after that.

I didn't do any drugs or anything.

What about the manipulation?

I mean, my best friend died of heroin.

Worked with him.

He was a SEAL.

Worked with him at CIA.

I've talked about him a bunch of times on this show. But he could be very manipulative and was an extremely intelligent person.

Thank you. the show, but he could be very manipulative and was an extremely intelligent person.
And I've been around a lot of addiction, you know, injectables, all the stuff. And it seems like the worse they get, the more manipulative they get.
And so when you found them drinking,

when you found them lying about who he's sleeping with,

there's more than one.

I mean, is that... I'm sure you're manipulative too,

at least in your past.

And so, I mean, do you guys realize how...

Do you even realize that you're manipulating people or is it just come? Sometimes. Um, of course I had a great lesson in manipulation because my mom was on crack and that's what crackheads do.
So I had a very early on, you know, she taught me how to steal, you know, stuff like that. So I would, that's, that's natural for me.
It was normal, which actually helped because I could see through his bullshit a lot because I could just see things that I saw in my mom. And I really, I tried so hard to not be like my mom that I tried not to manipulate people.
I tried to do the opposite. Even though I was an addict, I would try not to do stuff like that, even though, you know, in the end, I was full-blown crackhead, and it did happen.
But especially with Ben, too, he's so intelligent. It's so easy for him to manipulate people.
And I'm sure there were times when we were manipulating that we didn't even think of it like that. Were you concerned that he was manipulating you? I mean, yeah, there was definitely concern in that.
And I knew he was, you know, because he was like, you know, you're going to have the baby. And, you know, he would bring all these things up that I didn't have a very happy childhood, you know, obviously from what I just told you, but he did.
He did have a perfect childhood. And I think he, and he kept throwing out there, you know, we can do this and we can have this baby and we can get married.
And you see, I make money. We can have a big house.
And I see you work your ass off. We can do this.
this we can do this together and I think that was his way of I guess manipulating me

into staying and and working it out and at the time I wanted to slit his throat but I'm very happy that I did stay and and I'm glad that that little manipulation did stick a little bit. How long did it take for you to get over all this and 100% trust? 100% trust.
Probably when we moved to Georgia. I think I went to Georgia June 1st, 2019, my first day clean.
And I think that's when I just let everything go. Up until that point, I would still still think of the emails and like the thought of some things I'd want to kill him in his sleep.
And I would actually think about it sometimes. But once we moved away from Memphis and like literally had to leave everything behind with just the clothes on our backs and a $700 truck with stolen plates, I was like, okay, I really am starting my life over with this man, and I can't have to forgive.
And I've learned this my whole life. You know, God teaches forgiveness.
And I knew that if I was going to continue my life with Him, I would have to forgive Him before God would allow anything good to happen. I was going to have to forgive him.
And so I just decided it's time. It's time to forgive him.
And that was it. Why did you guys move to Atlanta? We moved to, well, it's like an hour north of Atlanta.
It's a little city called Cumming.

And, well, we moved to stay alive.

That was at the very, the worst part of our addiction right then. And we knew if we didn't leave Memphis, if we didn't leave right at that minute, we were going to die.

He actually left a week before I did.

I didn't know if I was ready yet.

And if you leave or you say you're going to stop doing drugs before you're ready, it's not going to stick. So wait a minute.
So there was more after the NyQuil. Hmm? There was more after the NyQuil.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry.
I meant until he got back, until we relapsed for the first time, you know, together. Oh, and also, like, I was pregnant when all of this happened.
Once I had my child, I always have to have C-sections. So they put me on pain pills.
I never got off of them. I just kept taking them.
I had so much resentment and hatred for him that I just stayed on pain pills. And like three weeks after I had James, our first, um, I get a call from Shelby County that he's in jail and he got caught with crack right in front of the trap house, like three weeks after my C-section.
Like I could barely move, you know, I was breastfeeding had this huge-ass scar. I was an asthmatic, so I was dealing with an asthma attack at the same time.
So all of that just, I never stopped taking my pills. I was like, fuck it, he's going to go get high, I'm going to stay high.
And so I just kept taking pain pills. So you didn't relapse together? We did later, and it was bad.

And we tried to keep each other sane and good.

There would be periods.

I tell everybody it's just like a roller coaster.

I would be high, he would be clean, or he would be drunk,

and then I would finally be okay.

And then he started getting, and this is like years in the making. We get thrown out of him and Aaron's house.
They foreclose on it. We end up getting a much bigger house.
And I'm a workaholic just like him. I'm like a machine.
I don't talk. I just work.
So we were making money, just swimming in money. And the whole time, he's buying my pills because obviously the doctors cut me off.
I don't need C-section pills anymore. And so I'm like, I'm getting sick if I don't have these pills.
And I'm getting them from my sister. I'm getting them from anybody I can.
And every once in a while in Memphis, there will be a drought and can't find find pills. And I was so sick and he can't stand to see me sick.
So he was like, we both know, because I was on heroin before I even met him. We know if you can't find pills, you go get heroin.
And it's a lot cheaper to begin with anyway. So he went and got me heroin.
I think that lasted about a week or two that I was just doing, but no, probably about a week, a week at most.

And he was like, you know what, fuck it, I'm going to get on heroin too.

So then we were both on heroin, and it was just straight downhill from there.

Were his five kids living with you guys?

So they would be back and forth. They were with Aaron most of the time.
But, you know, they would come visit. Like, we had this big house.
Like, she had a little apartment. And I think because we're workaholics, we made so much money, we were able to afford this big house.
And so there's room for all of the kids, you know, all together with my kid and his kid, there were six kids, seven kids, shit, because I had James, seven kids. And there was room for all of them.
And so they would come over there a lot. It was a big, nice house.
They loved being over there. And I think at first, nobody really, nobody really understood the totality of how deep in it we were in

because we made it look good.

We kept the businesses going.

And for me, lots of people, they think heroin junkies.

They think of people just passing out in their chairs with a needle in their arm.

That wasn't me at all.

I guess from watching my mom all those years, I have to be in control.

I cannot be so out of it that I don't know what's going on.

So I would snort heroin, and it would give me superpowers.

Like, I was like super mom.

We would clean.

I would bake brownies.

We would go feed the ducks.

I was organizing everything.

I was getting all my work done.

I was doing all the emails.

I was dealing with customers. Like, nobody would have even thought that I was on drugs.
I just looked like Superwoman

24-7 until I got dope sick, until I ran out of dope. And then my hair hurt, my skin hurt,

everything. I couldn't move.
And that's when people started noticing, maybe they're back on

drugs. And then money wasn't even an issue.
Most people, you know, something's

Thank you. And that's when people started noticing maybe they're back on drugs.
And then, you know, money wasn't even an issue. Like, you know, most people, you know, something's going on because they're running out of money.
And we just didn't do that yet. We would eventually.
And we would eventually get kicked out of that house because crack became more important. And this is, I mean, we're talking about probably a five-year span that I'm kind of going over right now.
So how do the pills dry up in a city? I don't really know. Ben actually probably knows more, but I think they just bring in so much and they sell sell so much, and maybe some get seized.
You'll see the big seizures they have, and sometimes those seizures were drugs that were meant for Memphis. And then they just, I guess the supply kind of runs out.
How did the crack come into play? So Ben was on crack before I even knew him.

And, you know, when we first met, I'm very transparent about everything.

And, you know, I told him my mom was a crackhead.

And I told him I never wanted to do crack.

I never wanted to end up like my mom.

My mom was also a raging alcoholic, a very violent one.

So I stayed away from alcohol.

To this day, I hate alcohol.

Oh, I hate alcohol. I don't want anything to do with it.
And, um, so those two things I always stayed away from. And then one day, uh, we couldn't find heroin and I was just so, so sick.
I was dog sick. I just, I couldn't move, but we could find crack.
And I think Ben had already had some. There was one day that he was sick and I was not sick.
So I go down to South Memphis to go try to find more heroin so I can make him better when he wakes up because he was just rolling around in his sleep and he was sweating and it was just, it was bad. So I was like, let me go down and I can, I can wake him up with some heroin and make him better.
Well, I waited there for three hours. There was no heroin.
All they had was crack. And I was like, well, I remember he used to do crack back in the day.
Maybe crack will make him feel better. So, so I got like a 30 rock of crack, brought it home to him.

And he was upset that there was no heroin because he knew he would still be sick. But he was happy that I brought him crack.
So he was doing crack after that. And I think probably about two, three weeks after that, you know, the crack had already been established.
He had been doing that. So when I couldn't find heroin about two, three weeks later, he was like, well, I got this crack, but it's a bad idea.
And I think I remember I was holding the pipe in my hand. I was like, how bad of an idea is this? He was like, that is the worst decision you will ever make.
And I was like, fuck it. And I lit it.
And that was the end of everything. That was all I wanted for the next year and a half.
Year and a half? Mm-hmm. I feel like it was about a year and a half.
What is crack? So it's cocaine and baking soda and water. Those are essentially the three ingredients, and they're cooked together,

which you would think, you know, like cocaine, big deal, it's cocaine,

and you just add some baking soda and some water.

You don't think it would be a big difference, but I guess there's, you know, snorting it, shooting it, smoking it,

all three different routes, but all three very different feelings that you get from it. And smoking crack, as I found out, was the one thing that that's like, after that first hit, that was it.
That destroyed me. Like, that is all I wanted.
I didn't want my kids. I didn't want my husband.
We had gotten married in between that.

There's a lot we skipped, but I just wanted crack. That was it.
That was everything. It took everything we had.
What did you like so much about it? I guess the feeling. And for somebody that's never smoked crack, you can't even really describe it.
there's something called the bell ringer.

And when you first hit crack for the very first time, or at least the very first few times, there's something they call the bell ringer. And it's almost like you hear a bell in your head.
And it's, I can't, in words, I cannot describe it. But that is what you chase every other time you're doing it.
You are chasing for that bell ringer. You want that first feeling again.
Kind of like how Ben described the heroin. But that's so much worse.
Like, it's just, it consumes every bit of you. It just, it just takes you.
Where were your kids when you guys were doing this?

I think for the most part, they were at Aaron's house. They would come every once in a while.
We would never let them see anything. Of course, James lived with us because he was ours.
He wasn't Aaron's. So he lived with us during it.
And he was one and a half, two years old. He had no idea what that was, what we were doing.
We did not do it in front of him at first. When we were living in that house, we wouldn't do it in front of him.
Until the very end. And I do, I think I've blocked out some parts and things will come back to me sometimes.
And I remember the movie Boss Baby, when I hear the theme music for that. And our four-year-old plays it now, and it still brings me back to that big house.
And we'd be in our room, and he was obsessed with Boss Baby. And I just remember sitting on the bed with him he was watching TV and I was just sitting next to him smoking crack I made sure to blow the smoke in the other direction though like like that did anything good but I do remember that I did I did smoke in front of James I think only because he was one and a half two two years old, and he had no idea what it was.
But, you know, I look at it now, and I just think, like, what fucking damage I could have done? Like, could he have gotten high? Could that smoke have messed him up, you know? And it just, it hurts to know some of the shit that we put him through. And I haven't even got into, like, the really deep shit that we put him through.
And I'll probably let Ben talk about that. But that's, that boy went through it.
He didn't know it because he was only two. What is some of the shit? So when we got kicked out of the house, and it was, there's a rapper called Young Dolph.
He's a Memphis rapper, very famous. He just got murdered a couple, like a year ago, two years ago.
His mother was the one that rented the house to us. We didn't know this at the time.
So when we get kicked out, they didn't do anything legal. It's like three huge linebackers just boom, boom, boom.
Y'all haven't paid your rent. So they come in and throw all our shit out.
Like literally everything we own, everything we have acquired through years and years of nothing but work is thrown on the front porch or on the front lawn. And this is a gated community.
So like rich people live here. Like it was a nice fucking house.
And so we have all these people like, you know, what's going on? And so they know we have kids. So that looks bad to begin with.
But so we, we move out of this nice ass house. And I think that same day, our, our good Tahoe, our good Tahoe shits the bed and we have to find a new vehicle.
And so we had no vehicle. We got kicked out of the house.
All we could do is rent a U-Haul, which we didn't even have money to do. My dad had to buy that U-Haul.
And we just shoved what we can into the U-Haul. There's only two seats, one for me and one for Ben.
James is sitting in a car seat, like right in the middle. He's not strapped in.
There's nowhere to put him. And we just drop him off at my dad's house because what are two addicts going to do when they get kicked out of their house with nothing? You go back and you go get high.
And that's what we did. So I knew my dad's house was a safe place for him.
So we took him to my dad's house. my dad, I think, is in denial a lot about what was going on.
And I'm not terribly close to my dad. We don't just talk and gab on the phone every day.
And he had to deal with my mom for so many years. He knew something was going on.
He knew I'd been in addiction for most of my life. And I think he just didn't want to ask questions.
He was just like, just leave James here. Y'all go do whatever.
And we did. And we went and started.
We just lived in the trap house for like weeks at a time. And when I started, and Madison too, like Madison's 10 years old.
Wait, 10, 11, good Lord. Madison's like 14 at this point.
I got to think, 13, 13, I think. And she goes to my dad's house too, because I don't want them to see any of this because of the shit I saw when I was little.
I don't want them to see any of this. So Maddie does stay with my dad for the most part.
But, you know, James is two, so I can't leave him with my dad all the time. So we'll have like little shifts.
Well, first five days we got kicked out, we went straight to the dope house and we stayed there for five days straight. We did not leave.
We just smoked crack for five days. And they knew us there because we had always had so much money that they're like, yeah, we'll front you that.
We'll front you that. We'll front you that.
We didn't even have money. I think Ben ends up selling the Tahoe that shit the bed, like, for parts or something or just as a chunk of junk and got a little bit of money.
That got us some more crack. And before we knew it, we're just going back and forth, going to see James and Maddie and coming back to the trap house.
And, you know, my dad's, he's got a life, he's got a job. So we'll have James with us.
And we would never take him into the trap house because they had a lot of drive-bys. Like if you look at this house, there was just riddled with bullet holes, bullet holes everywhere.
So I was always afraid if I brought him into the trap that we would have a drive-by and he would get shot. So we would go get our dope and we'd go drive.
We would just drive around in the Tahoe. James would be in the back seat in his car seat.
And we would just smoke crack. I would be in the front seat.
Ben would be driving. And we'd just drive around Memphis smoking crack.
And our friends were all prostitutes. And if we didn't have enough money, they had money because they were turning tricks so they could get more crack.
So, you know, they'd hop on in the truck, and we'd all smoke crack together. And we'd go to different traps together.
So it would—me, Ben, James, and like three or four prostitutes hanging out in the Sahoe or whatever it was. I think we—in the U-Haul at first, and then we end up finding the $700 truck that we managed to buy.
And, sorry, I'm jumping around all over the place, I think. How do you know where all the trough houses are? Just kind of word of mouth.
Ben showed me the first one in South Memphis, which is the one he used to frequent before we were even together. And then, you know, we made money.
Dope boys like money. So even though we were the only white people out there, they loved us.
They brought us in like family. And also, you don't want to be outside a trap house if you're white.
One, it's an eyesore. Like the cops know if that's a house on that street and there's two white folks outside the window, you know, everybody knows what's going on.
So me and Ben had this thing and we would walk up and we'd knock on the window and go back door. And that meant we're here.
Go open the back door to let the white folks in. And the back door was barricaded.
barricaded. It had a pole or like a two by four on three different levels, maybe it was two

different levels, to keep the cops or buy them a little bit of time for when the cops kicked in the door. So we'd say back door and we'd walk in and that was it.
And we'd stay in there for a little while because they don't want white folks going in and out of the place. So we would sit in there for hours.
And in those hours, we would see the prostitutes come in,

the other dope boys come in.

So you would meet, we would network.

It was like drug networking.

So we'd meet the other dope boys.

We'd meet the other prostitutes who would, you know,

introduce us to other dope boys or, you know, other.

It was just like a big drug networking system.

Did you see any of the stuff going on inside the trap house that Ben was talking about earlier?

So Ben was, we did see a lot of bad stuff together.

I did not see a murder happen.

Luckily, he did.

But, you know, we were held at gunpoint together on multiple occasions.

We were kidnapped together on one occasion with James. All of those started in the trap house.
You know, we would... Why were you kidnapped? So we owed a dope boy a lot of money.
How much? God, a couple of grand. I can't remember exactly how much it was.
I know it was a couple of grand, though. And everybody knew that we sold firearms parts.
We didn't sell the firearm, but we sold parts for the firearms. And, you know, around the gangsters, that's real cool.
Everybody loves that. So everybody wanted to be friends with us.
Everybody was happy to have Ben and Jess over. They can give you shit for your AR, and they can get you Tannerite.
So everybody was very free with their fronts, with their letting us borrow drugs to pay them back later. And this one guy just did it a little too much and we didn't have the money to pay him back.
So we kind of actually ran from this guy for a little while because some of those guys are like really nuts about their money. They want their money.
And I didn't know what they were going to do to us, what they were going to do to my two-year-old. So we kind of ran for a little while.
And there's a lady named Vicki. And we knew Vicki from the streets.
And she had just gotten, or she had had, she had like a little apartment on another side of town. I knew we wouldn't be around anybody.
And they let us move in for a little bit. That didn't last very long.
And we called the same dope boy. Because when you want crack, you want crack.
Like, you don't care if you're going to get shot. You want to hit that crack.
So we called him again. We were like, will you please just front us just like one more time? And he comes there, and he picks us up, and he gives us some crack.
And it's me, are little two-year-old James, and Ben, and we're in the back seat. He gives us a crack, and we smoke it, and we just drive around for a little bit, and he doesn't take us back to Vicki's house.
It was a very nice kidnapping, I will say that, because he had kids of his own. So I know that he didn't want to hurt James or anything like that.
He just wanted his fucking money. So he's like, we're not going back to that house.
Y'all are coming with us. And so me and Ben are like, what the fuck? Like we're in the back seat just like mouthing to each other, what the fuck is going on? So and he does, in fact, take us to his mom's house.
I'm guessing maybe that's where he was staying at that point. And he takes us to his mom's house in Raleigh, or Raleigh.
And we go, and we have to stay the night. And it's just like this little tiny room with mattresses on the floor.
And they're like smoking so much weed. Like there's so much smoke in this room.
I can barely see my hand. I don't want anything to do with weed at this point.
Like all I want is crack. But I'm not trying to ask for anything.
I'm just trying to get my kid out of there. But I know that I can't say anything.
And I'm afraid that if I do say, will you please not smoke so much around my kid? I'm afraid that, you know, you don't know what these guys are going to do. So I just had to sit there with my mouth fucking shut and just act like everything was okay.
And I was just like, James, are you having fun? You know, and I just had to keep that smile on and I had to make it seem like we were just having a sleepover. And me and Ben were fucking scared shitless about what the fuck was about to happen next.
And we stay the night there, you know, they smoke, he makes a couple of serves and his girlfriend stays in the room to make sure we don't leave. And we do fall asleep there.
We wake up the next morning and they take us out of his mom's house and we're just driving around again. And the whole time, me and Ben are like just fiending for crack.
We just want crack so bad. But I don't want to say anything because I don't want to risk anything happening to my son.
So we just keep our mouths shut. And so he's driving.
He turns around. He's like, so what about that money? And so Ben gets on his phone, and I don't know how he does it.
Ben does this all the time. He just gets like he'll fall in a pile of shit and come out with a hundred dollar bill.
Like that's the shit Ben does. And he just gets on the phone and starts texting customers or answering emails or something.
It ends up selling bump stocks because we were like the number one distributor or the number two distributor of bump stock slot fires that year. Because this was right after the casino thing happened.
So everybody wanted them before they were going to get banned. And Ben ends up selling like however many.
I don't even remember how many he's told. But we were able to get this guy his money, and he let us go.
We were all okay. Nobody got shot or murdered.
But for a minute there, I didn't know what the fuck was about to happen to us.

So this went from never happens in front of the kid to watching TV with him smoking crack to in the trap house to getting kidnapped.

Mm-hmm.

And he's two years old?

Two years old.

And it just sparked. Shit.
Yeah. It was horrible.
And it went quick. It was just boom, boom, boom, like worse, worse, worse, worse.
And it just kept going. Was that as bad as it got? No.
I guess for James, for James, that's as bad as it got. I think that kind of opened my eyes a little bit.
And I somewhat got kidnapped away from Ben and away from James. We had another guy that had fronted us, and I had promised him my wedding ring.
And so he ended up taking me, and he wouldn't let me out of his sight we were like going to get it appraised. And, you know, so after that happened, I was like, okay, I've been technically kidnapped like twice now.
Maybe it's time to slow it down. And, um, but you don't really have that choice when you're on crack.
You don't, you to make that. Like, it consumes every bit of you.
It just takes you. And I think the only way to get out of it is to, like, sufficiently suffer enough to go through so much shit that you're like, you know what? I would just seriously rather die than to live like this anymore.
And at one point, I had lost Ben. Like, we were living in a $700 truck with stolen plates at this point.
And Brandon Kelly, his best friend that would later overdose, was kind of living in the truck with us. And I don't remember where Ben went.
I think we dropped him off at a hotel to go score some dope for us. He stole my phone, and I couldn't find him.
Like, he wasn't at the hotel anymore. I couldn't call him because I realized he had stolen my phone.
And we seriously had just lost each other for, like, three or four days. I had no idea where he was.
I just rolled around in the Tahoe looking

for him. And I think that was one of the things.
We had gone through this much shit together. And now we're in the same area, running around with the same people doing the same drugs, and we couldn't find each other.
And as much as I was angry at him for stealing my phone and doing all the shit that we had done to each other in active addiction, I knew that I still loved this man. And I needed to find him, and I didn't want to lose him.
And I think the thought of losing him or knowing that he could be dead in an alley somewhere and I had no idea, I think that was part of what got me to my end of being ready to quit. And then you hear Ben's version, and he wakes up just covered in blood, has no idea where it came from.
So I think that part and then Ben's part, and we just were like, you know what, we're going to die if we don't leave. We're going to die.
Our kids are going to die. We're going to—it's time to go.
Was there infidelity in here, too?

Not on my end.

I've never been unfaithful, ever.

On Ben's end?

Just with those three that we talked about earlier.

Not during this?

Mm-mm.

Well, because all we hung around were prostitutes.

And even though he was cheating, Ben treasures his penis,

so he wasn't going around prostitutes.

What are we missing?

I mean, there's a whole lot.

I didn't know how long I was going to be sitting here,

so I was just kind of jumping around.

Like Ben went in a very nice order,

and I was just kind of all over the place. There's, I mean, a whole hell of a lot missing.
You stabbed me. I did.
I stabbed him. I mean, there's a lot that's missing.
You stabbed him? Mm-hmm. It was more of a slash.
It was a slash. But one of the times that he tried to get sober, he got really, really bad drinking.
This is when we were in our big, nice house, and we were just swimming in money. And he just started drinking again and got so bad that he would take the upper of his gun, didn't even have the rest of the gun with it.
He would just take the upper and be like, I'm going kill some cops. And he would like literally run out the front door thinking he was going to go kill cops.
Like that's how out of his mind he was. And it got, it got so bad like that, that I was like, dude, you gotta, we gotta do something like it's going to get really fucking bad.
And remember, like I, I grew up with an extremely violent alcoholic for a mother. So that's what I, you know, I'm used to getting beat shitless.
So like I'm, he's never been violent with me, but I'm just seeing this progression. And I just know that at some point he's going to start beating the shit out of me like my mom used to.
So I'm getting really fucking scared. I'm like, dude, you've got to do something because I can't, once you start hitting me, I've got to go and I don't want to leave them.
And I know that. So she's like, cool, I'll, it's fine.
I will take a shot. There's a shot called Vivitrol

and it makes it to where like, you don't want alcohol or if you do drink alcohol,

it's supposed to make you sick or something like that. So, so he starts doing that shot

and at first he does okay.

First maybe a week or two.

Well, then he starts drinking.

He starts drinking with it.

Turns out that when you drink with Vivitrol, it makes you extremely violent.

And he got really, really angry.

I don't even remember what it was about. And I remember we were arguing over something, and he gets in my face.
And it's almost like PTSD from when me and my mom used to be. And I just reacted, and I think I just pushed him or something.
I was just trying to get him out of my face and away from me, because I didn't want to get beat. And he took that as an act of aggression, and he took my head in like, with his, he's got big hands, dude, so he took my whole head and bashed it into the wall.
And like, I saw black, like for a split second. I think any harder, and I would've, like, he would've me a blackout.
Luckily, I didn't. Luckily,

it was like a half second of blackness. And I, you know, I was like, oh, fuck.
He could have just really fucked me up. And I'm always carrying a blade, always.
Since I was like 14, I've carried knives on me. And so I just pull out my knife and I just slashed the shit out of his arm, like right here.
And that was it. Like gloves were off at this point.
He was like, oh, fuck no, bitch. And he just starts, you know, pushes.
It was such a blur that I can't tell you exactly everything that happened, but I do know that we were at each other's throats. He was trying to hit me.
I was trying to hit him. There was a knife involved.
There was blood everywhere. And we make it into the bedroom.
And I think at this point, like he's, you know, I'm a girl. He's a guy.
He's a lot stronger than me. And I know this.
And so I'm trying to get the fuck away from him because he's literally like blackout drunk out of his mind. He's not been anymore.
And so I'm trying to run from him because I just realized I just slashed this motherfucker. He's going to kill me.
So I run into the bedroom and I try to close the door. Of course, he kicks it open and gets on top of me and starts choking me.
So much so that I'm starting to blackout. Like I'm starting to lose consciousness.
And Thomas and his girlfriend, Jackie, were like in a truck in the garage or in the driveway this whole time. Like he was supposed to be coming in to get his belongings or something.
Like Thomas, he had decided to move back to Thomas's house for a second or for a while because we had gotten into it because he was drunk. So they were sitting outside waiting on him to come back out.
He was supposed to just be coming in to get his items. So I kind of come to, because I was barely even conscious at this point, and Thomas is ripping him away from me and pulling him off me, because he's, I mean, just hands around my neck, I'm going to fucking kill you, bitch.
And just like, it was very bad. It was a very traumatic experience.
But I do believe had Thomas not peeled him off of me, I would not be here right now. I wouldn't be.
I almost lost consciousness. So it was, there's not a lot of stories like that.
That was the most violent one between us. There were a couple of knife fights over heroin just because I always have a knife and I always pull out a knife.
So that's on me, but there's a lot of bad that happened. Wow.

Let's get Ben back in the seat. Okay.
I want to pick up right before the turning point. She had mentioned you woke up in a, with blood everywhere.
So what was that? Well, to this day, we don't know. I woke up in the empty lot next to 1428 woodward street which is a very significant address that's the house that she was describing it's full of bullet holes where you know we've had friends die in that house friends shot in that house uh i had disappeared i went into a blackout drunk.
I wanted to get out of that life very bad, and I knew if I kept going back to her dad's where I had a soft place to land, I was not going to. And so I decided to just go all out and either die or hit rock bottom.
But it was going to that week one or the other um i mean i got nose to nose with a real young gangster disciple who had a pistol to my gut told him to pull the trigger i mean i was begging somebody to kill me um and uh that was on hemlock street so two blocks over fromward. And that was the last thing I remember before waking up the 26th of May 2019 in that empty lot, just covered head to toe in blood.
When I came to, like I was coughing up blood, and I figured I must have been puking blood because I could could still taste vodka so I knew I'd been drinking a lot um and then as I got up like I it was all over me and so I didn't know how badly hurt I was uh or what had happened and there wasn't a cut on my body so I to this day I don't know what happened um and I as I realized where I was the window to buy dope from there. And I looked over and Daphne or Cresha or whoever's in the window and it, my body is wanting to go to the window and get dope to wake up and figure out what to do.
And I just couldn't do it. I could not take another step in that direction.
Um, I couldn't remember anything from the preceding several days. Madison's father, Nick, I had been helping, trying to mentor and get him into a better life.
He'd recently gotten out of prison and had no idea that we were shot off. He was murdered the 19th of May.
I was the last person to talk to him. And he was killed for kicking a roommate out that I told him he needed to kick out before we would let Maddie come spend the summer with him.
So I immediately took that upon myself that it was my fault. And I went and drank at it.
And it began my progression to rock bottom that week. I found a phone that day and called my dad and he told me to just come home and i didn't know how the hell i was going to get there and long story short i ended up going to georgia i got on a greyhound bus um i didn't get high that day i was done that was it by yourself by myself and told Jess, I was like, you can either come with me or I'm getting my shit together and I'm coming back for James because this is over.
We're not doing this anymore. And we'd had similar conversations a couple of times.
I would go to detox and tell her you're coming or I'm leaving. And she'd come, she'd show up.
You know, we'd been through this a few times. And then every time it happened, somebody would die.
Somebody would get murdered. There'd be another overdose and we'd relapse.
And this time I was done. I was getting the fuck out of Memphis.
I couldn't stay. And so I went to Georgia.
And I'm a control freak. I always have to manage everything, manipulate really everything at this point.
You know, I had to be in control of, well, you've heard my story, everything. And my attempts to exert control over things I shouldn't have any control over has historically fucked my life up in epic proportions.
That part of my brain, I think, broke that day. I didn't know what was about to happen.
I had absolutely no control over anything. I had the clothes on my back, and that was it.
And I was okay with it. For the first time in my life, I had no idea what was going to happen tomorrow, and I didn't care.
And the feeling of freedom that I had is something I cannot put into words. I was just, I was okay in that moment.
I was

okay not knowing what's coming. And that is the peace I have wanted since I was 13 years old,

to not be in control and to be okay with it. And I finally found that that day.
It was on the tail end of all that misery you just heard, 18 arrests. I don't even know how many friends dead and gone.
You know, I've been stabbed, I've been shot at. I've lost everything.
But I finally reached a point where I just don't care anymore. I'm okay.
I'm okay. And a week later, she hit the same point.
I got on a Greyhound bus back to Memphis, got that $700 truck in James, and started the drive back to atlanta and um i remember i took a picture in the rearview mirror of that truck of memphis in the review and i went and made some you know stupid emo dramatic post on facebook like i'm leaving this city in the review for good good. And we laughed about it, you know.

And like not even 20 minutes later, I looked at her.

I was like, dude, we got to go back.

She's like, what are you talking about?

Like, I don't know.

I don't know.

Something's, our work's not done in Memphis.

And that was like just clear as day, not like an audible voice,

but clear as day a message God was sending me.

My work was not done in Memphis.

And we laughed because what work did I have in Memphis?

It was just death and destruction for the last five years, man.

But that was kind of foreshadowing of what was to come.

You know, we go to my parents.

We get a job at this data company.

Just a bullshit job. I haven't worked for anybody other than myself in 10 years um but i was looking at the bigger picture and you know even though we we lost everything on paper i still retained a lot of data um and a lot of expertise in the marketing area digital marketing in particular i still had a lot of email lists i Still had a lot of expertise in the marketing area, digital marketing in particular.
I still had a lot of email lists. I still had a lot of IP.
And so I'm looking at, like, what am I sitting on right now? What do I have in front of me? What can I rebuild with? And I decided to get a job at this data company and see what I could learn about how they're manipulating data and running data intelligence for large corporations. And I meet this guy named Robert, and he's my boss.
We didn't really get along because he was convinced I'd been hired to replace him. He didn't know about my background.
He just knew that I had worked for a Fortune 500 and had a college degree.

I was getting paid next to nothing. I was working crazy hours.
I'm driving a truck that I can't register. Like, I don't have a title to it.
I bought it from some dope boy who stole it from his mom. But I'm clean, you know.
And things were going really well. I landed a deal to pitch a data concept, essentially, to Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, oddly enough, on how to use data to predict the likelihood of a rare disease to do their digital marketing.
And Robert and I kind of had an open conversation about the dislike between the two of us around that. We go to New York, and we have the conversation over beer.
So I've relapsed now. This was like in August, I think, of 2019.
And I'm still sticking things out of this data company. I'm still trying to figure out how they're doing.
I tell Robert what I've got as far as my email lists and all the different strategies they used to use to get firearms products around Google's stupid rules. And we just started having this ongoing conversation about how we're going to figure out how to do what this company does.
Only we're going to do it uniquely to the firearms industry who has so much trouble advertising in the walled gardens of facebook and google and all that and um we continued the conversation october 3rd of of 2019 i relapsed again got totally transparent with robert about my background about everything and we're still living parents. Like, it's not comfortable.
I'm sleeping on a couch. Jess and James are upstairs, you know, in twin beds.
Like, they're nearing retirement age at this point. They weren't planning on having their 37-year-old son and, you know, his new family moving in with him.
But they opened their doors to us, and I was determined to make it work.

And Robert told me when I opened up to him, he's like, look, I don't get it.

I'm not an alcoholic, but whatever I can do to help you through this, I'm here for it. And I've really called him to task on that promise, and we haven't stopped since.

I went to AA.

I did not want to go to AA because I was still convinced at this point that I was special and that I wasn't like all these other crackheads and junkies and drunks, um, that I'm going to recover different. I don't have to go to meetings.
So reluctantly, I went to AA, um, on October 4th of 2019. And I shared in a meeting, and this Marine pipes up.
His name's David Gibson. Come to find out he's got a background not too dissimilar than mine.
And we talk, and he shares some words of wisdom with me, and I get a sponsor, and I start working steps. And, you know, Jess and I had it in the back of our heads this whole time that when Brandon died, little Brandon, we were going to relapse.
That was our reservation. You know, kind of like you held onto that bag of Coke or something.
Like, it's there. You're going to beat it, but it's there if you need it.
Kind of that. Like, we had that in the back of our head is, I'm going to stay sober, but, you know,

if I need to get high, I can do it when Brandon dies because we knew it was going to happen.

And December, that day came.

I realized I hadn't heard from him,

and we had gone through this exact same scenario

18 months prior with his mother.

We realized we hadn't heard from her,

and nobody could reach her.

And so we went and did a wellness check and found her dead and decomposing. And so 18 months later, I see the same thing playing out with Brandon.
And I sent, I called one of my employees from ReTech who I'd stayed in contact with over the years. He'd watched my rise and fall over and over again.
And I told him what was going on. He said, get me an address.
And he went and checked. Brandon had been dead a few days.
And in that moment, that one hurt. It still hurts because Brandon should have made it out with us you know he had nobody one of the letters his mom wrote when she killed herself mentioned something to the effect of she knew that he'd be okay because he had us looking out for him now.
And I failed to do that. Not only did I fail to do it, I left him there to die.
And that one cut me really fucking deep, man. Just because of the totality of our story, we didn't really have time to get into a lot of Brandon, but he changed the way I look at a lot of things.
And I wouldn't have been able to get off of dope if it wasn't for him, even though he went back out. We all did.
But the one thing that didn't happen in that moment is we didn't want to get high. Neither one of us did.
I called my sponsor, and I called Brian Owens, and he talked to Judge Dwyer. Judge Dwyer was the drug court judge who had terminated me from his program, gave me a $200,000 bond, and tried to send me to prison.
And Dwyer offered up their nonprofit that we could fundraise for to bury Brandon because he literally had nobody left. And I used my social media presence to raise the money to bury him.
And we went back to Memphis and, you know, we had him cremated and held a little memorial for him and gave the money we'd raised to the Drug Court Foundation. And we found some weird healing in that, not just the act of memorializing him, but the fact that we were able to raise money to care for somebody else that we don't even know, you know, just using a social media page page which at that time was nothing but shit posting it was uh but it it lit a spark in our minds um and then as luck would have it my sponsor was taking me through the steps very quickly and i was right right getting ready for step 12 right about them which is to be of service to those still struggling and uh something clicked in our heads man and we're like we want to do this and we want to we want to find ways to raise money to help people who are fighting that battle and uh we had actually had the idea probably high on crack back in 2017 to to start a non-profit called uh Flanderslanders Fields.
You know the poem by Lieutenant Colonel John McRae and Flanders Fields where poppies grow? I don't. Okay, it's a poem about World War I about a field of opium poppies called Flanders Fields and the Battle of Ypres in Belgium.
But it's got lots of imagery in it. There's dead people, you know, there's beauty rising from the ashes.
There's opium poppies, which is what heroin comes from. And I wanted to make a nonprofit called Flanders Fields to help vets battling opiate addiction, you know.
And time goes by. I did figure out with Robert's help how, how to replicate my data set across the entirety of the Internet to very accurately predict who's about to spend money on a gun purchase or a gun accessory purchase.
And I took that to market. And Black Rifle, which had originally been an e-commerce company selling parts, is now a company doing advertising for leviathans in the gun space.
And it took off pretty quickly well enough that after that little data company was acquired by a fortune 500 and robert was acquired in the acquisition with golden handcuffs i was able to poach him away to bring him over to black rifle um in march of 21 we filed to start planters. And the very first thing we did, oddly enough, was Fly Sergeant Deaton back to fucking rehab.
He had gone out and gotten addicted to crack and heroin just like I was. He went from pain pills to the same shit I did.
And was, oddly enough, facing a lot of gun charges too. It's weird how that one played out.
But anyway, we did our first good deed as Flanders Fields, and we're still waiting on the IRS to approve it at this point. And in July of 2021, a Marine Corps intelligence NCO hits me up about Black Rifle, about what we're he finds it intriguing and so we start a dialogue and I don't know maybe around the 15th he calls me and he's like you want to do something crazy hell yeah I do I'm bored you know we have point, moved into our own house.
We've got all the kids back. I think two of the kids I shared with Aaron have moved over to Georgia with us at this point.
Lily and the twins stayed. And life's good.
You know, we've got way more than we need, which is why we started the nonprofit, because historically, every time Jess and I have more than we need we start making bad decisions with the excess except this time I'm working a program of recovery and anyway my answer to him is hell yes I'll do something crazy and he goes all right cool well I'll hit you up the next day or two we're gonna get some people out of Afghanistan I was like I'm sorry you said we're gonna do what now he's like yeah the Taliban's taken over Afghanistan, and we're going to save some good guys. I was like, I don't know how I'm going to help that, but okay.
I ended up getting a call about a week later and thrown into this app called Signal, which I had never heard of. And I'm in chat rooms with all sorts of crazy professions, active duty, three-letter agencies, and they're wanting to know if we can use Black Rifle's data sets to do anything in Afghanistan, to vet people, to find missing people, to plot safe ground routes, to spy on what somebody's consuming on their device.
And the answers to some of those were yes, the answers to other ones were no, and the answers to the other ones were like, I don't know, but we'll find out. And he ends up sending over a list of, it came from a lieutenant general, I don't know if I should name the guy, but Jack Britton is the Marine NCO that pulled me into this.
He owns the CyberSamaritan.com. Really good dude, just a damn good human being.
He was volunteering at the time for the National Child Protection Task Force. Sends over this list, and it's a list of 13 families that are stuck in afghanistan being targeted by the taliban for capture or kill um and he wants to know can we get him can we find him can we make contact is there anything we can do that's like a list of whatsapp numbers and social media profiles or any other relevant selectors they had and so i start combing through breach data because a lot of what we've built out on the black riflele side is collations of breached data from, you know, like you hear about it like Park Mobile had a huge breach and all this information gets out.
And so I started cross-referencing like who may have appeared in a breach. And the first family I had on there, their last name was Pardisi.
and I started finding a lot of activity between that WhatsApp number, a Facebook account, and then I got down to a Hotmail email,

and then that linked back to a number at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, or Fayetteville. I didn't know it was Fort Bragg at the time.
I called it, and the guy that answered and spoke English said his name is Pardisi. And so I'm like, what the fuck? So I hung up real fast because I was a little freaked out, you know? And I realized like I'm not doing anything nefarious.
Just call back and tell them what we're doing. And as it turned out, this was the now an American citizen brother of the guy we were looking for.
And he had direct comms with him. So not only is this missing person no longer missing, we know they're alive.
We know exactly how many kids they have with them. We know where they are.
We know they have a tie to the U.S. military, and so they're good to go, right? So we make contact with people inside the airport.
I've been handing lists of phone numbers. It's kind of like Scott did with Pineapple Express.
Well, we were running the same lines on a lot of this. And I called the airport.
I told these people to go to Abbey Gate. You know, we had them.
I think they had a yellow flag they were going to hold up. And this Brit pulls them in.
Like, they're saved. We just saved 11 lives.
Like, I'm dumbfounded. I have no idea what I'm doing.
But it happened. And that really kind of tricked me into doing the rest of Afghanistan because the feeling I got from that initial success that was such a low-lift effort.
But now they think I'm a hero. You know, the family still checks in with me to this day.
They tell me happy birthday all the time. Like, it's – anyway, I was hooked.
I was like, I got to do this more. And so we went, as we tend to do with all things, way overboard into Afghanistan, all right? We're working multiple other angles through NCPTF.
I end up in direct comms with a driver in Kabul. You know, one thing leads to another, and I, like, have a ground team in Kabul now.
Like, we're able to move people all over the place. We were getting people into black gate i ended up in chats with scott mann um os geist that's how i met sarah adams um and right up at the same time i started getting because of black rifle success and because of the gun industry's general disdain for criminals and druggies that started getting kind kind of open about my background.
You know what I mean? And I had the exact opposite feedback that I was expecting, especially on LinkedIn. Like people not only appreciated my openness, a lot of people like, oh my, you know, I used to fight that too.
And especially from the firearms industry itself, I was actually kind of surprised. So I'm in these chants to all these people who like can certainly pull up my background and figure out exactly who I am and what I've done.
So it's good that I'm already being open. As we get closer to the 26th of August, things are getting real dicey in Kabul.
Like we've had, we've had Afghans get shot on the other end of the phone with us while we're trying to guide them in. I've been given access to this geoscent reporting tool where we're able to see real-time gunfire around the airport, where the checkpoints are.
We're navigating like from 8,500 miles away. I'm in my basement in Georgia telling people how to get into the airport.
I'm giving them contact with a driver that can get them through the 82nd at Blackgate. Jess is on the phone with Afghan women.
They're, you know, screaming and crying and praying, and Dari and Jess is praying in English, two totally different religions, but just trying to get the same thing done. It was a very surreal experience.
Wow. I'm less than two years clean at this point.
And, like, I'm in direct comms with all of these special operators and like dudes that are literally on the ground in Afghanistan, guys that are across the border in Dushan Bay. We had people in Abu Dhabi, at the humanitarian city up there.
Like literally within 45 days time, I've gone from I'm running my business and trying to find some purpose in life. We're waiting on the IRS to approve Flanders, so I can't do a lot other than fly my old buddy to treatment.
And now I'm in chats with super-duper badasses. And right in the middle of this, somebody finally checks our mail, and the IRS had approved Flanders Fields as a nonprofit on the 15th of August, the day Kabul fell.
So now I've got all of this going on, but now I have a mechanism to raise money because Flanders was chartered to help house homeless veterans, did not say anything about American veterans. We've got all these allied members of the Afghan National Army that we're trying to help.
We've got former commandos that we're trying to help. Jess, by this point in time, has her own little small entourage of former Afghan female police officers.
And then when the bomb goes off at Abbey Gate, you know, we couldn't get anybody else inside the airport. That was it.
It was curtains. But we've already moved all these people from the sticks of Afghanistan to Kabul trying to get them into the airport and evacuate them.
And so the need became immediately apparent for safe housing. And in these single chat rooms, there was like all sorts of people freaking out about the legality of this, the legality of that.
You know, do we need to do something with the Foreign Agent Registration Act? What's the Logan act? All this crap I've never heard of it, nor do I give a flying fuck about like, I'm, I'm barely two years away from being a criminal. So I don't care at all.
I'm going to find out if I can lease an apartment. Cool.
I'll be back in 10 minutes. So I call my guy back at Fort Bragg.
He's like, yeah, my cousin's a real estate agent. What do you need? I was like, I need safe houses.
So next thing i know i'm signing a lease in dari all right or uh far c or whatever i don't even know what the fuck it was um so we're signing leases in afghanistan we put we start putting families in these safe houses because we can't get them out of the airport anymore and um my dream of flanders fields and and helping homeless and addicted vets has now morphed because my weaponized ADHD went for shiny object syndrome in Kabul, Afghanistan. We ended up, like no bullshit, before it was over, we had 68 safe houses in Afghanistan.
We had them in Kabul. We had them in Kunduz.
We had them in Jalalabad. We had them in Helmand.
We had them close to Torkum.

I'm not sure how close.

We had Mazar Sharif.

At one point, we were housing 654 former members of the African military.

Yeah, we were—I blew through my kids' college savings.

But this whole time, like, it's just—we're learning how to get shit done real fast, real fast.

Make shit happen.

We're making contacts. And I had my life had purpose and before i know it i've got two years clean that's the longest i've had clean since that relapse in 2011 and like i'm starting to realize if i maintain a purpose maybe i actually can stay clean no matter how much money i make.
So we've dumped, like, all of our personal savings in Afghanistan.

I'm making money just to give it to the nonprofit so that we can continue doing what we're doing over there. We had a lot of very early successes.
We had a lot of really crappy things happen too. I ended up

I think it was november of 2021 i got invited to fort bragg to use the sock united states army special operations command to come talk to a room full of three three green berets about how we're doing this like i'm literally a crackhead and i'm being asked to come to USASAC and talk about what we're doing this. Like, I'm literally a crackhead, and I'm being asked to come to Yusasak

and talk about what we're doing in Afghanistan.

Damn.

They had their own little NGO set up.

I think it was called Team America.

I can't remember what it was.

But I met a whole bunch of guys up there.

Jeff Diardia, do you know him?

Mm-mm.

Okay.

And, oh, it's hilarious when I got there. You know, they do the background check at the little welcome center so like I think I'm fine because I'm there with Command Sergeant Major Faiswafa one of the Afghan commando guys who had headed up a whole bunch of the commando stuff.
I'm there with him and then with two former 3-3 SF guys. And I think I'm going to be fine.
And I'm watching the MPs across the counter as they're running my shit. I'm like, oh, no, I'm not fine.
And so one of the MPs is like this thick white girl covered in tattoos. So I start flirting with her.
And then she looks down at her screen and looks back at me and goes, I know what you're doing outside. I was like, oh, fuck.
So I walk out there. She's like, what are you doing? I was like, I'm trying to help with the Afghan evac.
What do you mean? She's like, cut the shit. What is up with your background? I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.
She's like, what the fuck are you doing here? And so come to find out the way they had entered all of those charges, which I beat every one of into the NCIC, it has me show them with like 14 felonies or some crap. I'm like, no, I don't have 14 felonies.
I beat all of those. And she's like, well, do you have proof of that? And I got smart with her.
I'm like, yeah, I always keep it with me. Come on, let's go to the truck.
And she said, well, is there anybody you can call? And so I called Division 8 Drug Court who had terminated me, but we had started rebuilding that bridge with. Brian Owens gets on the phone, and I don't know if he pretended to be the judge or if they got Judge Dwyer on the phone, but they confirmed I do not have any felonies.
And so they ended up letting me go into the base to do this little class at Yusasak, which was fucking cool as shit. I still can't believe that actually happened.
Yeah. But I tell you that story for a reason.
The way God works in all of these little details, if I hadn't started getting open about my past with all of the people in the EVAC community before they work with me, I'm like, I want to make sure you know who I am. Most of them already follow me, so they knew who I was.
They already know that I talk very openly about all this shit. But if I hadn't been open about that, that would have out of me right there in front of CSM Waffle and all these other guys.
If I hadn't gone back and fixed the bridge with Drug Court, I wouldn't have been able to get on post. And all of these things just kept working together.
They just, it's kind of like you see in those numbers repeatedly, you know, the little God winks, they just kept happening. 2021 was a blur, all right? Jess and I have been working with Randy Searles, another Green Beret who helped Scott with a couple of his books, put all of this into a book.
So, like, it's actually all written out with all the stories from the Afghan stuff. I don't want to try to get into all that here because I really want to talk about what we're doing in Memphis.
What's the name of the book? It's called We Fight Monsters. Yeah, it's called We Fight Monsters.
And we're launching a Kickstarter to help get it across the finish line at some point this month, probably before this actually airs.

But having been on here and just said that, it's going to help a ton.

So I hope people go look up the Kickstarter. And it's going to go into detail about our background, what we did in Afghanistan, Ukraine, Haiti, Mexico.
We've done some weird stuff in several places at this point. but it's a road map for how to get good shit done

in very weird places several places at this point. But it's a roadmap for how to get good shit done

in very weird places and odd circumstances

and against all odds,

which is really what we pulled off in Afghanistan.

Man, that's amazing.

And that's how long, Silver?

How long since?

I hit two years right around the time

I went to USASOC.

We ended up the next month. It's quite the redemption.
It gets crazier. It gets crazier.
I'm sure it does. The next month, we get invited to Capitol Hill to meet with members of Congress and a lot of other soft guys.
All right? And our child care canceled the morning of our flight so we bring ava so there's pictures of ava entertaining former agency case officers senators like she was the star of the show up there in dc um we started tightening up these circles of people that we know and work with and because we've got a reputation at this point as being folks who can get

shit done in unorthodox ways.

You know, if we have something that needs to get accomplished,

our goal is to find a way to get it done.

And I don't want to worry about stupid stuff like legality until after the

fact. I hope that never comes back to bite me in the ass.

I've gotten lucky so far. Right before Christmas, Jess gets a message.
We started shutting down the safe houses because we couldn't afford them. Or not just shutting them down.
We were trying to find work for the guys or find them a pathway to somewhere else, get them out, get them taken care of. But instead of keeping that house open and moving somebody else in, we just terminate the lease.
And we started doing that in December. Jessica sent this message the day before, the day after Christmas from this girl and started reading it to me.
I'm like, no, we're not taking it anymore. So the next thing I hear is screaming and sobbing coming from Jessica's phone.
I'm like, what the fuck is that? And so this girl has sent her a voice note in real time of the Taliban beating her father in front of her mother. And she tells us about herself.
She's Shia Hazara. She's in college.
She was 19 when the collapse happened, and she wants to finish college. Her dad was a commando, served with our Green Berets since the inception of the commando corps, served in the ANA four years prior to that.
Like, this is somebody we got to help. And just basically, she basically told me, I don't give a shit what you say, we're helping them.
So she moved them into a safe house. That girl lives with us today in Memphis.
Wow. She started college two weeks ago in Memphis, Tennessee.
She is today probably the single most protected individual in the city of Memphis, hands down, by both sides of the law. It's been absolutely amazing to watch.
It took three years to get her here, but she smuggled herself alone through 14 countries, through the Darien Gap, into Mexico. And then we started helping again in Mexico.
I don't even know how. I ended up with contacts in the Mexican government as part of all of this weird stuff we've done.
We got sent down to Mexico during the evacuation out of Ukraine. And so I had contacts in the Mexican government that helped us get her from Guatemala through Mexico.
And then friends that I've made at CBP helped get her lawfully into America. I made the CBP friends when we responded to the Uvaldo massacre.
Wow. Yeah.
And I would love to, I do talk about all these in the book. I would love to sit here and talk to you about them, but I don't.
What do you mean she's protected by both sides of the law? Bro, everybody loves her. The gang members, the cops, like both sides of the law.
Know her, love her, appreciate her, watch out for her. Ex-cons, like everybody in Memphis knows who she is and they will not fuck with her.
You know, she's just the most cared-for person in the city of Memphis right now. Wow.
Yeah. What's her name? Arizo.
Her dad and siblings are still stuck in Pakistan, and that sucks. You know, lost any and all ability to get people moved.
But, you know, all told in that effort, I mean, we helped.

I mean, I directly got about 250 people into the airport

before we were no longer able to get them in.

And then after the fact, we worked a lot too.

And I want to touch on all these crazy stories

just to illustrate the network of people we've got

that are helping us

do what we're doing in memphis is staggering it's not just addicts and it's not just vets and it's not just cops and it's not just federal agents it is people from literally every walk of life that has come alongside an effort to help people who can never, ever repay them. And this method that I guess you can call it that we're using, it's kind of Scott's idea.
We did it in Ukraine. We did it in Ecuador to evacuate some American medical students that were stuck.
We did it a little bit in Haiti to save a guy that was kidnapped

by a cannibal gang. We did it twice in Mexico.
We've used it in Uvalde. We used it at Q Club.
We did it again with Task Force Lahaina. These grassroots movements that you hear Scott talk about all the time, they're real.
They're very real. And I think the time for Americans to stop paying so much attention to the division that our mainstream media pedals, that time is now because it's not real.
It's manufactured division. And I can tell you this as a white guy that goes under the blackest streets of South Memphis where everything revolves around race.
And I'm able to get done some amazing things. I'm able to, I'm out there fighting narcotics trafficking.
Not by putting people in jail, not by shooting people, by meeting people where they're at. And I'm able to take food off the table of drug dealers and have them help me do it.
I have been able to get convicted human traffickers, help us get women into treatment and out of that life now. And it's not because I'm special.
It's not because I'm from those streets. Sure, some of it is because I'm from those streets and they've seen me do very bad things.

And they've seen me recover. But a lot of it is just, it just comes down to human connection.
You know, it comes down to what you and I are doing right now. Having a conversation and giving a shit about where the other person's coming from.
How? How do you get a dealer who's making money off of that to help you? You can't always, but I'll tell you what we've had great success with. Drug dealers are humans.
Just like a CIA case officer, a SEAL is is still a human they've got a particular skill set but they still have things that are very human about them and relationships are one of those things there's somebody that is important to that drug dealer there are usually multiple somebodies that mean a lot to him he still has a soul and he still has to earn a living and if you understand that not all of them are necessarily evil

and if you understand that not all of them are necessarily evil, and if you understand that there's that human aspect to all of them, you have an opportunity to find a way to get through to them. Now, it's not going to surprise anybody listening to this to hear that a lot of drug dealers make good entrepreneurs.
All right. Obviously, they're businessmen.
We've been able to take that approach with some of them. Demonstrate some of my business success and prowess over the years and say, look, if you will consider a different way of life and put this shit down, I'm going to mentor you.
I'm going to help you. That's worked sometimes.
Sometimes they don't give a shit. They're going to keep living the life they're living.
You've got got to find a different way to reach them. Well, if you figure out that that dope boy's mom has been out there on the hoe track for the last 30 years selling her body or his sister or his baby mama, and you go get to them, you get that one some help, man, you've got a friend for life from that dope boy.
He may not stop selling dope if that's the only way he knows how to make a living or if that's the way he enjoys making a living but you can reach him you can make some level of impact you could start going after their customer base and that that's we did that successfully on one trap house actually it took multiple methods on this one the one on woodward the one where i should have died that's how we shut that house down you know, we put one of the dope boys through CDL School. He went back to selling dope.
We helped him open up a car detailing business. He went back to selling dope.
We ended up getting help for several people that he was real close to and he loved, like family. Even though he was selling them what they were killing themselves with, he loved them.
We got them help and that caught his attention. And so the totality of those opened him up to a conversation and he agreed to shut the trap down.
How's the approach happen? So it's going to depend on whether or not we have history with that Doughboy. And if I don't, I've got to become known to him.
Do you have a lot of, are there a lot of the same people down there that you were dealing with in your? There were in the beginning. When we first went back to Memphis, we went back in 2022.
Now, we found out the first day we went back out there, 14 of them were dead. 14, murder, overdose, one natural, lot of them died uh but the one the majority of them is still the same people it's like we never left they're still they're doing exactly what they're doing the day i hit rock bottom in that empty lot and they don't want to be they don't they don't know anything else they were raised there they were taught if you need something you get it off the block you know you do what you got to do out there.
What do they think when you come out there and they see you? It's completely changed. Depends on who it is.
Today, they love to see us because they know we're there to help people. They know we're out there trying to bring hope, recovery, economic opportunity.
We've started up a skills training workshop, like a woodworking shop. We're trying to bring opportunity to the hood, to one of the deadliest zip codes in America, where, as I mentioned earlier, young men have a higher chance of being dead or incarcerated than they do to be in school or have a job, much less be in our kids' lives.
These are things that have to change. You can't change that being the most violent place in America without addressing that.
That is what has to change. And so we change that by bringing hope out there.
So when they see us coming, they're happy, man. Now, maybe we have cheated a little bit because we're doing this where we hit rock bottom.
And they do know us. And that is important because they need to know I'm not the police, right? Otherwise, I just get shot.
You walk up to a trap house and say, hey, man, I want to shut this house down. No down no you're gonna get shot you know you've got you got to use a little more tact than that and and you got to show up like every trap house how do you show up i just like walk up and say what what's your opening line well so well wouldn't just walk up to a trap house and say i want to say, I want to shut this down.
It is a very long process.

What's the approach?

The initial approach.

The initial approach is going after the addicts.

Get them help.

Because every dope boy has an addict or two or five that are pains in his ass.

And when you're selling dope and you have somebody that's shot off real bad, they're a risk to your operation. If they get rolled up, the cops are going to offer them a deal to flip.
And so that person is a threat to your existence. You want them to get off of dope.
You don't want to lose them as a customer necessarily, but you want them to go to rehab and if they relapse and get back oh, well, right? And so we started by going after the addicts that frequent those houses, and that's not a threat to anybody. No dope boy in their right mind is ever going to get upset if you are getting the worrisome prostitute crack head off the street.
They're going to love it, actually, and you're going to build some trust with them by doing it. And they know that.
They? They know that. How do they figure out it's you helping them?

Oh, because they see us.

I mean, there's only two white people

going out in the hood doing this.

Well, it's more than that now.

But they know.

And we'll hold events out there.

Like, we'll feed the hood.

We will buy Christmas presents

for all the kids in the hood.

Thousands of toys.

We've done that two years in a row now.

And while that may sound like handouts and enabling people to make poor decisions with their money, buying drugs instead of presents, yeah, that I'm sure happens. But it wasn't James' fault when Jess and I bought drugs instead of Christmas.
You know, it's not those kids' fault. And so even though there is a little bit of handout involved in the events that we do, it's building trust, man.
These people are seeing and realizing you're there to actually help them. You're not there just to go put somebody in jail, you know, or shoot somebody.
You're actually there trying to meet a need, meet these people where they're at, and then show them that they still have worth as human beings. Because I can tell you, when I was out there towards the end, I didn't feel human.
I wouldn't make eye contact with anybody. I felt substandard to literally anyone.
I felt so insignificant and worthless. And I came real close to ending it more than once on purpose.
I tried more than once.

And do you have conversations with these guys?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I want to talk to them about their hopes and dreams.

I want to talk to them about where their life diverged from the one they had always envisioned.

And the sad part is that in a lot of these cases, you find out it didn't. They're living the life they envisioned because that's all they're ever taught.
It's all they're ever shown. It was all that was ever modeled for them.
You have, like, generational legacies of dope dealing in some of these neighborhoods. I would imagine.
So, I mean, how do you, like, how do you even, we just had a conversation a couple hours ago about having your identity wrapped up in your occupation.

I didn't want to try to make a comparison between soft guys and dope boys, but I was thinking about that when you were saying it, because their identity is completely wrapped up in that. Completely.
It is their whole sense of worth and value is wrapped up in the fact that they're a dope boy and they got money and they have control. They have power.
Because the reality is, especially when we're talking on the trafficked women's side of it, if you've got that sack of dope, you have whatever you want. You can get whatever you want out there.
No questions asked. And that is a hard thing for some of you guys to let go.
When they start seeing it happen to somebody they love, though, their sister, their child, their baby mama, their cousin, their mom, their eyes open up a little bit, and you've got a window of time to make some impact there.

Young kids getting shot out there, that happens all the time too, and it breaks everybody's heart. Nobody wants to see that shit.
Those are opportunities to go in there and have conversations. They all know and accept that their means of earning income is not sustainable and that it will send them to prison.
And so trying to break it down to these guys that prison is not a normal part of life. That's not, like, don't have that on your 5, 10, 20-year plan, you know, like, don't put prison as something that's going to happen.
You can actually control whether or not you ever go to prison. That's like a revelation to some of these guys.
No kidding. Yeah, and how sad is that? How sad is that? In fact, I'll give you an example.
I'm not going to say his name, but years ago in the trap house on Wilbert, they used to give the biggest dope boy on that block a hard time because I had done more prison time or more time than he had. I've never even been to prison.
All mine was jail time. But they used to give him a hard time because I had done more jail time than he had.
When was it ever a badge of honor to do more jail time than somebody else? It's it shouldn't be and so these mentalities that you're having to break down out there they've been in place for generations you know and it's do they become vulnerable with you do they do they give you validation for for for helping oh yeah absolutely now it's good it's going to depend on who it is you know everybody's individual and some of them are going to be way more closely guarded but i've seen tears shed by a lot of these guys you know especially when it comes down to things like fatherhood being present in your kids lives um and if you can get them to talk about childhood that that usually rips open some wounds, some painful ones. Because I don't know if this is unique to the neighborhoods in Memphis where we operate or if this is an across-the-board thing in inner cities, but sexual abuse is very common in childhood, even incest, incestual abuse.
And that's not something that gets talked about in that community. And if you can create an environment where they will talk through childhood traumas, you really get another in with these people.
And again, it's just that thing. You have to make human connection.
And that's why I think, well, I forgot where I was going with that. You have to make human connection, and that's why.
So you're saying you have to establish human connection. You've got to establish human connection.
And in the communities we're working in, that's not necessarily a popular thing to do at scale publicly. So you've got to create an environment where you can have one-on-one conversations with these guys.
And I keep saying men, it's women too, but you know from your own experience, most of the calamities we face as humans are driven by bad men actors, right? And so my focus is always on the males out there. And we've got women that will work with women too, though.
But trying to reach them and just get to the root cause of why things are the way they are. And I think at the end of the day, most of it does come down to lack of economic opportunity and an acceptance at scale of violence, drug addiction, drugs, and human bodies as currency.
I know my team's getting ready to go down there and do that with you. Yeah.
We got Wyatt and who? Wyatt and Justin. Justin.
They're going to have a blast. They're going to get to see this in real time.
I'm going to take them to 1420 at Wilbert Street, the house that used to be full of bullet holes. There is a woman and her three children who I helped her get custody back of living in that house that just celebrated Christmas in there.
She's a year in something sober now. Trafficking survivor.
The women that used to sell dope out of that house, I've got them housed in another old trap house around the corner and it's like i'm taking the most i keep saying i i mean we it's this is not just been out there we have like a literal army that's out there doing this with us but how many of you guys are there i don't even know at this point man so like at any given point we're housing 75, and we're working with roughly 200, sometimes more, sometimes less. Now, we've gotten north of 350 people off the streets through detox, into rehab, through sober living, and back into the workforce.
I don't know that all of them stayed clean. I mean, I know not all of them stayed clean, but a lot of them did.
So, we've got a pretty sizable team out there. And then we've still got all these people from the EVAC communities, the Afghanistan and Ukraine that are pouring resources into this too.
Guys like Scott. Scott Mann's on our board.
General Hicks, who's A-10 barrels down there, is on our board. Travis Peterson, retired master sergeant.
He was an Air Force guy and an agency contractor too. He's on our board.
Travis Peterson, retired Master Sergeant. He was an Air Force guy

and an agency contractor too. He's on our board.
We've got a gunny from the Marines. And then all

of us have some level of trauma that we've had to deal with. And I think that's kind of the key to

building these teams out is you have to have somebody that's overcome trauma if you want them

capable of doing anything really, really cool for no reason other than to have purpose. Man, that is a – that's incredible.
It's going to get more incredible. So are you buying these houses? Yeah.
Well, we had this real estate developer who had bought up a couple of them at tax sales.

And every time she tried to do something out there, they would, like, steal her car.

You know, or cut her catalytic verters off.

So she donated those houses because we're actually able to go out there and do whatever we want.

The house on Wilbert I bought.

I bought it from my friend Drennan who was shot six times in that house.

His wife died in that house. That was one of those relapses right before rock bottoms when she died

i bought that house from him and the drug dealer that made his living in that house is who convinced

him to sell it to us no yeah now he failed to convince his partner and his partner shot somebody six times another somebody no three times the day we shut the house down coming out of my house

you now he failed to convince his partner and his partner shot somebody six times another somebody no three times the day we shut the house down coming out of my house after it was legally mine he shot somebody he's back in prison now where he belongs that was actually the guy that kidnapped her over the wedding ring evil evil evil person you know we deal with the worst that humanity has to offer, but I can count on one hand the number of truly evil individuals I've ever met. And it's low.
Even in the child predator space, they're not as evil as you would think they'd have to be. Which I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around that.
I really do. Is there a lot of that going on down there? So we've recovered several dozen women from sex trafficking, prostitution.
Two of them were minors. And I hate to tell you this, but both of them were pissed we recovered them.
No, I mean, we've talked a lot about that subject here. Yeah.
Yeah. You know, they're slaves to dope, man.
And in that age demographic, you heard my story when I was 15. There was no getting me sober that early.
I hadn't suffered enough. Just like Jeff said, you got to suffer sufficiently to choose something different.
And while you and I may hear that, you know year old being sold for sex that sure sounds like suffering to me it's not enough for them sometimes you know now i don't give a shit still a crime i'm still recovering you and anybody that was involved in your trafficking is gonna go to prison but it doesn't mean the victim's gonna stay sober you know what i mean so how many houses are there we've got a total of 10 houses in memphis and um i'm really excited to tell you this because i've not announced this publicly because we're still waiting on paperwork there is a 76 000 square foot nursing home behind one of my blocks immediately behind behind it. It's been abandoned for 20 years.
And last week we tracked down the owner and told her we want to turn it into a treatment center, which will make it, I think, West Tennessee's largest treatment facility. So you guys have Morgan County and DC4 over here in this area.
West Tennessee has nothing. The lady told us that not only is she interested in donating the property to us,

she wants to actually assist in raising the money to renovate it and oversee it.

I'm going to go ahead and say what's—

Did you say 76,000 square feet?

76,000 square feet, hundreds of rooms.

It sits on 580.

It's massive, massive.

And so I think that's our next move is our own treatment facility. Because right now I'm having to work with community partners who I love.
I'm so grateful for all of them, like Alliance, Serenity, Cap, all the treatment centers. We don't have anything that can do it all in one house in that side of Memphis.
It's certainly not this size. This is in the middle of the track.
I mean, you're sandwiched between the hoe track and the dope track right there. It's a perfect location to do this.
And I'll tell you this. A lot of people might hear this and think, well, that's really cool.
That's great. It doesn't really affect me.
That's not accurate, man. This crap affects everybody, and it's happening in everybody's backyard.
I'm talking about fentanyl and human trafficking. You might not see it the same way that we see it out in South Memphis, but this is happening everywhere.
And violent crime spills out of big cities. There's no way to argue that.
I can tell you from experience, when we shut down the trap on Melrose and when we shut down the trap on Wilbur, violent crime on those two streets ceased that day. Literally that day on Wilbur because somebody got shot that day.
But you get what I'm saying. It is the sole source of all the mayhem that happens anywhere near there.
We work with certain law enforcement agencies in Tennessee who have tons of data on this and are able to back all of this up. But 90 plus percent of the violent crime in Tennessee goes back in one shape, form, or fashion

to dope. And so if you remove the drugs from the equation, so much of that violent crime goes down.

And that's something we all want. It's good for everybody.

How many dealers have you turned?

We've turned two very big ones, four smaller ones, and that's been through,

well, I hate to use this term with you because you're a SEAL, but direct action. And what I mean by that is not what you mean by DA.
And what we're doing, we're going direct. Ben is going directly to this guy to talk to him, and we're going to try to turn this thing around.
So two big ones, four small ones. Now, if we're talking about court referrals, because we do work with the drug court program, we work with veterans court, we work with the DA's office, they send people to us all the time.
And if we're counting those who have already been justice involved, right, they've already been arrested, it's in the dozens. Now, they may not have had a choice.
There wasn't an agreement reached. They were court-ordered to stop their behavior, but they did succeed in turning their life around.
There are dozens of those. Dozens.
Wow. And so it's easier, obviously, to do it if you have the law backing you up.
But my goal out there is to keep these guys from going to jail if they're fixable. And definitely keep the addicts from going to jail.
Because if you look at the way we fought the war on drugs for the last 40 years, it's an abject failure by every metric measurable.

We've made no progress.

In fact, it's worse.

Overdose deaths are higher than they've ever been.

Now, I know and you know that's in large part because of fentanyl and the issues at the southern border with it just coming right across.

But the status quo has to be challenged.

We're not prosecuting our way out of the war on drugs.

We've tried it for 40 years.

We're not prosecuting our way out of the war on drugs. We've tried it for 40 years.
We're not prosecuting our way out of the war on human trafficking.

It's not working.

I'm not saying we stop prosecution.

I'm not saying anything in favor of decriminalization or anything like that.

What I am saying is we need partnerships like the one I just described, where we do work with courts.

We do work with law enforcement.

But we also work with the guys on the other side of the law. we work with the junkies we work with the addicts who are in the gutter actually enduring this

you where we do work with courts. We do work with law enforcement.
But we also work with the guys on the other side of the law. We work with the junkies.
We work with the addicts who are in the gutter, actually, and during this shit. And we help them get better.
We help the other guys who are literally sometimes just in it to put food on their table. We help them find a better way out, too.
And I think by working that kind of, I like to imagine it like this, this device, you know, fighting from the top and the bottom at the same time, we can actually get some big shit done. And if we have more time, we could talk about how we did exactly that in Afghanistan.
We got big shit done. How we did it in task force with the Maui fires and we got big shit done.
It's the same method. We're working from the bottom up and the top down.
But that grassroots side is something we have complete and total control over. I don't have to wait on a bureaucracy to make a decision.
I can just move right now. I don't have to wait on legal to approve something.
You know what I mean? And honestly, when you're dealing with an issue like human trafficking, veteran homelessness, anything where addiction touches it, I have seen more times than I can count a delay of hours result in death. Literally just hours ends up with a dead person.
A month ago, we had two double funerals. Siblings die within hours of each other.
Oh, man. This has to stop, man.
We're losing a generation of American youth. Fent, Fent is the number one killer of people, I think, under 55 now.

And if you want to talk about that from a national security standpoint,

recruitment's at an all-time low, and we're losing a generation of warfighters.

Like 300 a day.

That's kind of scary.

Damn. That's fucking amazing, man.
It's keeping me sober. I bet it is.
Nothing more, nothing less. That's a big, big impact.
We have no plans on slowing down, man. We want to take what we're doing in Memphis.
I want to quantify it and validate it by getting that city off of the top five deadliest cities list. And I'm going to blueprint exactly how I did it.
Every relationship we made, every agreement we went into with the street gang or with law enforcement, and just write every bit of it out and see if somebody else can replicate it in their city. Because I'm positive they can.
I'm literally just a crackhead.

And we've pulled this off in South Memphis.

You know?

Like, I'm not that special.

I think this can be replicated.

I think it's scalable.

I think it's viable.

And if nothing else, I've seen a lot of families get put back together.

I've seen a lot of lives get saved.

I've seen a lot of people become saved. I've seen a lot of people

become productive members of society. And that's enough for me.
And you and Jess are some amazing people, man. I appreciate that, brother.
I do. That is astounding what you guys are doing.
Wow

That's our duty

In our That is astounding, what you guys are doing. Wow.
It's our duty. You know, you remember, we used to pray to God.
If he'd get us out of hell together, we'd go back for those who left behind. He got us out.
We're together. We got to go back.
I don't have a choice. Well, then.
I'm blown away, man. That is what you've been through, what you put yourself through, just your kids.
I mean, are your kids involved? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
So Jacob worked 17 of the 21 funerals in Uvaldo with us. He made a lot of the surviving kids smile for the first time in a long time.
Jacob helped renovate the house at 1186 Melrose. Jacob had to jump.
I hope his mom's not listening to this. Aaron, I'm sorry.
Jacob had to jump under floorboards to hide from a drive-by on Woodward Street. But, yeah, they're involved.
James and Ava come everywhere with us. They love it.
Lily has had a great time going out and meeting people in the hood. Madison has come out.
They all have. They all love it.
You know, the twins, they're 14. Eh, it's kind of cool sometimes.
I think the only one that hasn't really gotten terribly involved is my oldest son, Jackson. He's in college, you know, doing his own thing.
He's very focused on school, and he's still working full-time too. So for all that we put our kids through, it turned out okay, you know.
They really did. That's pretty amazing too.
We got really—, too. We got really lucky.

Wow.

You know?

And huge props to Erin for that because she shielded a lot of them from a lot of bad.

Man, I'm proud to know you, dude.

Likewise, brother.

That is...

I love it.

Is there anything my audience can do?

Definitely look for the kickstarter for We Fight Monsters by Ben and Jessica Owen that would be huge if y'all want to check out the website it's wefightmonsters.org we've got our YouTube channel youtube.com slash at monster fightersers. Just check us out.

Or look me up on Facebook, LinkedIn, follow me.

I got a Patreon too, patreon.com slash Ben Owen.

We'll link it all in the description.

You're right, man.

Man, just God bless you.

God bless Jess, your kids, everybody you're working with,

all the people you're saving.

I mean, lots and lots of love, man. Thank you.
Thank you for the opportunity to be here, man. Seriously.
Holy shit, dude. Dude, we could have gone another eight hours.
I know. I know.
I know. So you brought up psychedelics.
Huge proponent. Yeahonent yeah yeah psilocybin saved my life yeah I was gonna actually tell this today but we didn't get a time she doesn't even know this I tried to kill myself in our house and then told her somebody broke in and robbed me I cut myself to fucking pieces I mean but I never could have hit an.
And I guess it's because of all the dope I shot.

She doesn't know that?

Uh-uh.

Well, let's keep it in.

Be a little encore.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's got a picture. Well, how did psychedelics

change your life?

So, microdosing, psilocybin.

Microdosing?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Now, see,

it's a weird spell.

Like, I can't do that now

because I'm in recovery,

you know?

But it got rid of

that suicidal ideation.

But despite being in recovery, but it got rid of that suicidal ideation. But despite being in recovery, ayahuasca, psilocybin, there's so much research that needs to be done with all of these things that needs to be available.
Especially, I'm going to link to demographics that people don't link often, but I think to combat veterans and sex trafficking survivors. I've not come across a sex trafficking survivor to date that has not been a witness of extremely horrific violence.
And I think there's something to be said for the fact that this is happening in their hometown, like where they live and sleep and eat and have to re-assimilate into society. So I want to see more psychedelic research done in that demographic.
I really do. But it's tricky because not every addict is going to be able to responsibly do psychedelics.
We're still talking about drugs, you know. Yeah.
But there's a lot of us that can't, you know. Damn.
And in a controlled environment, I think it's the outcomes from it.

If you've read any of the studies, which is well-read as you are, I'm sure you have.

I just went brain dead.

Stanford. Not Mayo, but which one?

Stanford.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I had a MARSOC buddy we worked with during the EVAC that was part of, I forget which one one and then everybody swears by ayahuasca everybody swears by it you haven't done that i did ibogaine i've heard a lot of good things about ibogaine i i wanted to do that coming off heroin but when i was still thinking i was special you know i just couldn't couldn't afford it because i blew my money. But, yeah, huge proponent of ibogaine, psilocybin, ayahuasca, all of them.
Yeah, me too, me too. Yeah, have you read up on neuroplasticity? A little bit.
That shit's fascinating. It is so fascinating.
The way your brain literally will rewire itself and form your pathways with psilocybin. If you're doing the guided...
Johns Hopkins, that's the one I was trying to think of. It's mind-blowing, the kind of shit that...
Some of that stuff's over my head, Ben. I didn't write a fucking medical journal publication in.
But. Damn, dude.
That's a hell of a story. Wow.
Yeah. Scott wasn't fucking around.
Well, you get to hear a lot more than Scott heard, but there's still so much more. There's so much more.
We'll get you back on. I would love to be back on.
And I love that you put her on that camera, man. That was awesome.
You like that? I do. Because if I'd told her she was going to do it, she either wouldn't have done it or she'd have fucked up.
But you made her comfortable. And what you've obviously done with me, too.
This is my greatest fear. Well, public speaking in front of a crowd is my greatest.
This is my second greatest. Yeah.
And it's not even, I was telling darren downstairs it's not even fear of really speaking it's i'm afraid i'm gonna be afraid while i'm speaking well when i made this i wanted it to be like a super comfortable environment very much equipment in the, man. That's why there's no equipment in the shots, nothing in your face, you know? And I think, well, I don't think.
I know. Credit to my therapist, man.
I did three years twice a week. Have you ever done SGB? What's that? The cellulite ganglion blocks? No.
Okay. No.
I was just wondering, because Travis and Joel on our board both do those, and you're very even-keeled and calm, much like, no, not Joel, but Travis. You guys, the way you talk, you're just, you relax people when you talk to them.

And Travis has that same trait.

I appreciate that.

But I'll take it as a compliment. But no, I've not done that.

I'm in a good place, man.

I can tell.

I don't need to rock.

You just sound content.

I envy you.

I got a great team.

You do.

Great family. I don't, I'm good.
I'm you. I got a great team.
You do. Great family.

I don't, I'm good.

God is good, man.

Yes, he is.

You got it made.

I love it.

Thank you.

You too. Jim Rome takes on sports.
Why? Because you're not playing me. With rapid-fire takes.
Y'all went from the Super Bowl straight to the toilet bowl. He's not over the NFL.
The NFL is over him. Scorching debates.
All the good the bad all the ups all the downs he's the

spitfire of sports smack sorry for what i said because what's appropriate when i said it but i

can't say it anymore dude you are killing the game the jim rome show podcast follow and listen

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