The Sick Ripper - New Britain, Connecticut

This summer, Instacart is bringing back your favorites from 1999 with prices from 1999.

That means 90s prices on juice pouches that ought to be respected, 90s prices on box mac and cheese, and 90s prices on ham, cheese, and cracker lunches.

Enjoy all those throwbacks and more at throwback prices only through Instacart.

$4.72 maximum discount per $10 of eligible items.

Limit three offers per order.

Expiration September 5th.

While supplies last, discount based on CPI comparison.

This Labor Day, gear up, save big, and ride harder with cycle gear.

From August 22nd to September 1st, score up to 60% off motorcycle gear from your favorite brands.

RPM members get 50% off tire mount and balance with any new tire purchase.

Need to hit the road now?

Fast Lane Financing lets you ride now and pay later with 0% interest for three months.

And here's the big one.

August 29th through September 1st only.

Buy any helmet $319 or more and get a free Cardo Spirit Bluetooth.

Supplies are limited.

Don't wait.

Cycle gear.

Get there.

Start here.

This week, in New Britain, Connecticut, what starts out as a simple missing person case unfolds into a massive investigation of the worst serial killer in the history of the state.

Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder.

Yay!

Oh, yay, indeed, Jimmy.

Yay, indeed.

My name is James Petrogallo.

I'm here with my co-host.

I'm Jimmy Wistman.

Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another absolutely insane edition of Small Town Murder.

We have a serial killing bad guy today.

Just an absolute monster.

Worst it's ever been in Connecticut.

So

here we go.

It's some crazy stuff for you.

Before we get to that, head over to shutupandgivemeurder.com.

Get your merchandise.

Get your tickets for live shows.

They are coming back in the fall.

We have, I think there's a few left in San Diego because we released our holds.

We have,

I think Philly, D.C., and Seattle are your tickets.

So get your tickets right now and come see us.

We are excited for that.

ShutupandGiveMemurder.com.

You definitely also should listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, which right now we are doing a long-form multi-part series on the i5 killer.

So if you want a deep dive on a serial killer, that's where to go.

There's no sports involved in it at all.

So check that out.

And also your stupid opinions.

Find out why people complain so much

or what they complain about.

Then get yourself Patreon.

patreon.com slash crimeinsports, just like the name of our other show there.

That anybody $5 a month or above, you are going to get massive amounts of stuff here.

First of all, hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before that will be available upon subscription.

You can binge those out.

New ones every other week.

One Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder.

And what do they get out of that, Jimmy?

Everything.

Every damn thing.

This week, we're going to talk about Jeff Alm, a football player with a wild ending to his life.

And then for small-town murder, by popular demand, we have to talk about the poop cruise

because we've been requested to several hundred times.

So definitely the poop crews.

And we'll talk a little Titan submersible in there while we're out in the ocean anyway.

Let's do that.

That is patreon.com slash crime in sports.

And now

you also, in addition to all of that we just said, you're going to get all the shows, crime and sports, your stupid opinions, and both episodes of Small Town Murder, all ad-free at the same time.

Yeah.

It's all we can give you.

Other than coming over and cleaning your gutters, this is all we got.

This is everything.

So do that.

Sign up, man.

We're giving you all we can here.

So thank you so much for everyone who has done that.

And you get a shout out at the end of the show as well, too.

Jimmy, you'll mess up your name all bad there.

I almost said miss up.

He'll mess up your name.

There you go.

So that's a disclaimer time.

This is a comedy show, everybody.

We are comedians, but the stories are unfortunately and terrifyingly real.

Every last detail is real.

They are meticulously researched, and then we put jokes in there too.

But what we do is we never make fun of the victims or the victims' families.

Why is that, James?

Because we're assholes.

Yes, but.

But we're not scumbags.

See how that works?

It's real easy to do that.

I don't understand how some people, you know, would not understand how that works.

But I mean, it happens.

So if that sounds good to you, man, do we have a wild story for you?

If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever, ever go together, we might not be for you then, but I think you should check it out and give it a shot because you never know.

That said, I think it's time, everybody

to sit back.

What do you say?

Let's all clear the lungs here, arms to the sky, and let's all shout.

Shut

up

and give me murder.

Let's do this, everybody.

Let's do it.

Let's go on a trip, shall we?

We are going to Connecticut this week.

It's a lovely place.

They have nice roads there.

That's what I always say about Connecticut.

They pave their roads

very well.

Food.

It's a great place.

This is their diners suck dicks, though.

I'm be honest.

I drove through there.

I've stopped at two, 0 for 2.

Swing and a miss both times.

Diners are very hit and miss.

It's either a great diner or a crappy diner.

You never know.

I guess that's probably partially on me for hitting rural, middle-of-the-road Connecticut diners.

They're probably not the best.

And the ones in the middle of nowhere also, they're not really a neighborhood joint, so they're just counting on people passing through.

Those are usually the crappy ones.

Somebody will stop.

It's all right.

Just make the bullshit.

The ones where local people go, that'll be a decent diner because they figured that out.

This is New Britain.

New Britain, Connecticut.

At least we don't have to figure too much out of where that name came from.

I think we can all understand that one.

This is in north central Connecticut.

It's about 15 minutes outside of Hartford.

So that's a suburb of that.

It's about an hour 50 to New York City and about an hour to Westport, Connecticut, our last episode in Connecticut, which was episode 570.

12 Scary Hours was the name of that.

That was wild.

It was another one of those.

Someone's kidnapped and someone's murdered.

And is that person kidnapped alive?

It was crazy.

It was a stressful one.

This is in Hartford County, area code 860.

Now,

they have several nicknames, some of which are absolutely ridiculous, too, which is excellent.

They have Nubritzky.

I don't know who calls it that, but Nubritsky.

Hard-hitting New Britain.

That's my favorite because that's hilarious.

Oh, my God.

That is very funny.

And Hardware City, which is the one that actually makes sense.

We'll get into that.

And their motto is Industria Iat Alvere et

mele frutier.

Yeah, some Latin shit.

Industry fills the hive and enjoys the honey.

Oh, it sure does.

Oh, boy.

History settled in

1687.

Old.

Dang.

Quite old here, incorporated in 1871.

So they had to wait about, think about it for about 200 years, whether they really want to have a town or not.

That is very interesting here.

It was once known as the Great Swamp.

Oh.

Yeah, that's not great here.

But then that was when it was part of a different town.

But then in 1754, the colony approved the area as a new parish and named it New Britain, B-R-I-T-O-N, which is not how it is now.

Oh, yeah.

It was nicknamed Hardware City because it was home to the Stanley Works, which they made.

Did you have Stanley Cup?

No, I think

Stanley, don't they make like fixtures and like plumbing things and stuff?

Oh, that's Stanley.

Yeah, that's Stanley.

And the American Hardware Corporation.

Oh, yeah.

And other big manufacturing companies.

There's a lot of manufacturing factory jobs here.

Yeah, by 1913, the American Hardware Corporation was the largest employer in Connecticut.

Is that right?

And it was known as the hardware capital of the world.

Also, New Britain is the home of the wire coat hanger.

It was invented here.

Oh, how about that?

Feels like like that should have been invented like, what, 3,000 years ago?

Like, as soon as they've learned to work with metal, they should have went, hey, what if we don't keep our clothes on the floor?

So, yeah, these that's what they're doing here.

And 2010, Stanley Works purchased Black and Decker, and it remains headquartered in this city.

So there you go.

Yeah, it really feels like the wire hanger should have been come up with a long time ago.

Hey, maybe we should.

As soon as they got wire that thick, that gauge of a wire.

That's what I mean.

They should have been like, we could probably use this to hang clothes.

We should probably not let a yak sleep on our shirt, right?

That would be bad.

Let's hang it up.

Yeah.

A couple of famous people here

from here.

Annie Leibowitz, the photographer.

Steve Dalkowski, who was

a major league baseball bust who was known as, at the time, the fastest baseball pitcher in history.

Okay.

My question is accurate.

There you go.

And Charles Goodyear also, who invented organized rubber.

So there you go.

He lived and worked here.

Reviews of this town.

Here we go.

Five stars.

I've lived in New Britain my whole life.

My community is amazing and everyone is friendly.

I like being able to go outside and feel safe doing so.

I do know there are the wrong there, by the way.

Fantastic.

There are worse parts in New Britain.

I would like to see some improvements in the city.

Okay.

But five stars.

Five stars.

Not bad.

Three stars.

Could be better.

Yeah.

Five stars.

Could be better, but

not perfect.

Five stars.

Three stars.

My experience with New Britain is a very mutual understanding.

What is that?

What?

What kind of a narcissist thinks they have a mutual understanding with a city?

Size grievances they're well aware of.

They know.

They know, and I know them, and we are all.

I know, they know.

The city is not great, but it's also not bad.

Perfect star rating then.

Three stars.

They have very local stores, and everything in New Britain is close.

New Britain is also very close to surrounding towns like Berlin, Southington, and Plainville.

It was when it was called the Great Swamp.

That's when it was part of Berlin, by the way.

One star.

This is funny.

Dirty, dirty, dirty.

All right.

Dirty, dirty, dirty.

Lots of drinkers and irresponsible dog owners.

Just drunk people people stepping in dog shit.

That's this whole town.

I just want to stumble home without slipping in all this dog shit.

Lots of leader and glass on the sidewalks.

I don't know what leader is.

L-I-T-E-R.

Litter.

Litter.

Litter.

Ah.

Litter.

Yeah.

Nailed it.

Not safe for dog owners.

Okay.

Big stray cat problem.

Well, it seems like the dogs would be in heaven then.

Yeah.

Not sure.

They shit anywhere they want and chase cats all around.

It's dog's life, man.

One star, finally.

Awful place to live.

The criminals are everywhere and destroy everything.

Everything.

Everything.

Always, every day.

Not even the cockroaches and rats want to be there.

Oh, come on.

How come there's no roaches here?

Well, they don't even want to be here.

It's so bad.

They backed up and left.

I know people that would rather be homeless in any other place than have a roof over their head in New Britain.

No, you don't.

No.

You don't know a soul.

Nobody says that.

Say, okay, I'm going to take you to an overpass.

You're going to sleep under it for a while.

I'm going to live in your house in New Britain.

You go ahead and sleep under an overpass, and we'll talk about it.

Under an overpass in Tulsa.

We'll see how you like it.

We'll see how that goes for you.

See if that's any good.

People in this town, it's a little bigger than we normally do, but it's worth it.

74,022 here.

A lot more women than men.

It's about 52.5% women, which is way above the national national average for like, especially a big town.

It's weird.

Median age here is 33.2, mainly because a lot of this population is college kids, by the way.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's a college here, so that's a that's a big deal here.

I think it's Connecticut Central State University or some shit like that.

I don't remember.

It doesn't really matter.

Completely irrelevant to our story, but

about 36% of the people here are married, which is well below the national average and kind of in line with, you know, a city that's half college kids.

But 30% are single with children.

So these college kids are putting out.

That's one thing we do know.

Race in this town, 42.3% white, 11.5% black, 3% Asian, 40.9% Hispanic.

So there you go.

The religious breakdown is about 50-50, just like the rest of the country.

But as usual, in the Northeast, Catholicism takes the crown here by far.

31.7% Catholic.

As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the North.

They're there.

If they're in the Northeast, they're going to be the highest religion.

They have a high unemployment rate here, which again is kind of normal in college towns.

Yeah.

Good type of deal.

Median household income here is $50,379 a year.

That's great.

Not great at all.

It's normally almost $70,000 in the rest of the country.

So a lot of that, too, is college kids driving it down as well.

But I mean, the cost of living, when you break that down, down, 100 is average.

Here it's about 105 in the cost of living, but the housing is the lowest thing.

Really?

So maybe that's good.

Median home cost here, 228,900 bucks.

In Connecticut.

In Connecticut.

Yeah.

There's shitty parts of Connecticut, though.

Evidently.

There's some really nice parts and some really dumpy parts of Connecticut.

That's crazy.

Here we go.

Maybe you've convinced yourself, damn it,

I'd like to be inspired by the same place that inspired someone to invent a coat hanger.

I'm going.

And a galvanized rubber tire.

God damn it.

We have for you the New Britain, Connecticut Real Estate Report.

Average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $1,350.

So

expensive above the national average, whereas to buy a house, it's lower, which makes sense.

Again, college, more rentals than buyers here.

Our first house is a two-bedroom, one-bath, 912-square-foot house.

And I'll show you a picture.

I've never seen a house that could use a power washing quite as bad as this.

Wow.

Is it mossy?

What's going on?

I don't have any.

There is just shit on the side here.

And it's like, you know, vinyl siding covered in shit.

So it's crazy.

This is a foreclosure.

There are no pictures of the inside, but it looks like a box and has a little tiny backyard with a low chain-linked link fence that your dog could jump over Yeah, any athleticism at all to it 199,000 bucks for that Okay, and there isn't any land either to it.

It's the sun basically a small lot houses right there.

Yeah, yeah, here is a three-bedroom two-bath 2122 square foot house.

It's nice here.

I'll show you.

It's quaint.

You know, nice little Connecticut.

Yeah, nice little family house, little trees growing up there.

You got your fireplace.

Lots of greenery inside, too.

It's nice.

There's a fireplace.

Like I said, the, you know, the stairs right when you walk in.

It's a smaller, not smaller, but it looks bigger.

It looks smaller from the outside than it is, actually.

It's got a basement then, right?

Yes, it does.

Basement.

Absolutely.

Half acre lot, $350,000.

That's not bad.

And the price, it was apparently listed for $250,000 because it had a price increase of $100,000

like two weeks ago.

I don't know.

They might have listed it for too little and then put it up.

And then finally here, a four-bedroom, three-bath, 4,348-square-foot house.

Feels like you could have got another bathroom out of that.

God.

It is extremely snot green.

Horrible.

Yeah.

It's like horrible color.

Like white olive green.

It's real weird.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

It doesn't look great from the outside, honestly.

It looks kind of dilapidated, but inside's pretty nice.

It's on a half-acre lot.

$439,000 for that.

It's not bad for for that much house.

You just need to do a lot.

Yeah, it's a lot of house.

It doesn't, and it's one of those houses, again, that doesn't look like it from the outside.

It looks like a 1,500 square foot house, and it's

three times that inside.

A little bit of paint.

Maybe it's a good house, huh?

Not bad, maybe.

And finally, things to do.

The Little Poland Festival.

Little Poland.

Little Poland.

There is a Little Poland in this town, and very much, that's why it's Nubritsky, because

there's a lot of Polish people here.

So the Little Poland Festival started out in a parking lot, and now it's a huge event, they say.

Oh, man.

One of the organizers here said that the neighborhood known as Little Poland wasn't always a destination point for people interested in Polish shit.

He said it fell on hard times in the 90s and 2000s.

There was crime increasing and shit was going bad.

That's when business owners approached the city and asked them to have Broad Street designated as Little Poland.

So this wasn't like a natural thing, like, oh, that's been Little Poland for 100 years.

Literally, business owners were like, can we name this so then it's a destination for people to come to?

So it's literally just marketing horseshit.

Light bulb screwing contests and all that.

Oh, you know it.

Yeah.

The team with the least amount of people screwing in a light bulb wins.

I think that's how that works, right?

Oh, man.

So they started doing that.

Now,

the Little Poland Festival or whatever the hell it is here, the Little Poland Festival, the schedule starts out at 9.30 a.m.

with DJ Tomaz Burick.

T-O-M-A-S-Z Burek.

DJ.

He

sounds like he's spinning all the hot shit, doesn't he?

He's going to play some fucking polka music for you, I think, out there.

Then he comes back.

Yeah.

Then there's an announcement, a sponsor announcement at 10 o'clock.

And then DJ Tomaz comes back again at 10.10.

He's back in here, Tomaz.

He's back.

At 11.20, the Yousuf Taekwondo School, which sounds very Polish, they're going to do some sort of presentation.

The academic choir of the Lublin Polytechnical Institute will be there.

Okay.

The pious Polish folk dancers from Webster, Massachusetts.

Oh.

Okay.

Polish Scouting Organization of Connecticut will be there doing, quote, mixed performances.

Scouting.

Scouting.

Polish scouting.

Write your own jokes, folks.

There's plenty to be written there.

Everybody fill it in.

That's the fun part.

We just say it, and we don't even have to make a joke because

everyone's doing it themselves.

At 3:40, they're going to bring back DJ Tomaz Burekov.

God dang, this guy is working.

You'd think he'd be done, but no.

At 4 o'clock, a

Packy, Packy, P-A-C-Z-K-I, PASCII, PACSKI?

Yeah, I don't don't know.

I know what pierogies are.

I don't know what the hell that is.

There's an eating contest of those fucking things, whatever they are.

Oh, it's food.

Food.

Yeah, you got it.

Well, maybe it's not.

But either way, if there's an eating contest, I'm not sure if it's edible or not.

Yeah, we never know.

Daniel Band U.S.

I don't even know what that is.

That'll be at 4.30.

Then at 5.10, live music.

Now we're doing live music.

Yeah, otherwise we just had the DJ.

And then there's a small stage also, and there will be two bands going back and forth on the small stage.

The R-B-O-Polka Band

and the Vada Mecum Band.

Whoa, V-A-D-E-M-E-Q-U-M.

It is fascinating.

We have done so many shows and so many festivals and so many bands, and they still keep making them.

They still keep at them.

They still keep making them.

We got plenty of bands, I think.

I think we're good.

Yeah.

There's not even any names left for bands.

No.

I don't even know what you'd call yourself anymore.

Band, you know, AQ647-36 at this point because we're going to be so overwhelmed.

Combining letters and numbers.

Yeah.

Like a science fiction movie.

Or a default screen name on Instagram.

Yeah.

So

here we go.

Crime rate in this town.

What we're interested in.

Property crime.

What those people are saying.

Criminals everywhere.

Even the roaches won't live here.

Right.

Slightly above average.

Barely above.

Which in a college town, it's usually even worse because

included in property crime is some 21-year-old kid pissing on somebody's tire or something.

You know, violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault.

The Mount Rushmore of crime is slightly below average.

The dangerous stuff.

Horrifying.

Yeah.

So, I mean, it doesn't seem that bad.

That said, let's talk about some murder.

Let's do it.

Yeah.

Horrifying.

Let's start out with Nielsa Arismendi.

Okay.

A-R-I-Z-M-E-N-D-I, Arismendi.

Now, she was born in 1970.

And by 2003, she's living a hard life.

Uh-oh.

Nielsa is living a hard life.

Nielsa is N-I-L-S-A, by the way.

She's a mother of four in her 30s.

And a heroin addict.

Oh, boy.

Those two things.

both

rough.

What year is that?

This is 2003.

2004.

2003.

She's living in a motel with her boyfriend, who's a convicted drug dealer.

Well,

things are going one way to get it.

Great.

She doesn't have her kids, thankfully.

If she's living in a motel room with a drug dealer and doing heroin, it's probably better.

Yeah, it's better if they're staying with somebody else at that point.

But she apparently, her boyfriend's name is Angel Sanchez, and

this guy, the two of them together, basically just wander around.

She turns tricks, and then they buy cracked and heroin.

Oh, the old trope.

If you've ever seen

Dope Sick Love, they could have been on Dope Sick Love, basically.

The whole life, yeah.

Yep, the whole couple, she's going into a van.

He's waiting over on the side, keeping an eye out, and then she hops out, and then they go buy their fix.

30 bucks, and we get a rock.

Yeah, that's right.

So it's cracked to go, crack to get the energy to go look for the heroin, and then heroin to come down from the crack.

And it's a vicious cycle.

So on July 25th, 25th, 2003,

they're having a long night, man.

A real long night.

Nielsa and her boyfriend are walking around.

It's real hot out.

It's July.

Yeah.

Basically,

nobody wants to pay normal price for sexual activity this night.

Normally, she charged $30 for a half hour,

which seems very reasonable.

It's a dollar a minute.

Yeah.

Which that seems extremely reasonable.

But everybody's trying trying to talk her down tonight.

I'll give you 20.

Oh, no.

Half of this shit.

Some people said, I'll give you 10 bucks for a blowjob.

So he's got,

which is, you know,

I don't know if they could tell she's desperate or what, but it's a rough night.

It's a rough night.

So got no confidence in its showing.

No.

And the problem is, too, they're getting desperate because their habit is.

Really out of control.

Oh, boy.

But between the two of them, when you have two people together, that's two giant habits.

At this time, in July of 2003, they were each smoking.

Now, I don't even know.

This is the

strange amount of crack to put.

Normally, like a crack, with crack, you'd say this dollar amount or this weight.

This many grams, yeah.

This many grams.

Yeah, it's stuff like that.

This is much like the dresser of Cheez-Its.

It's a very odd,

strange.

So there's a book here.

We'll get to the title and all that later.

But the way they sum up the couple's crack smoking and heroin abuse is in a much very different measurement.

They say they were each smoking about 20 to 30 pieces of crack per day, which is very

non-descriptive.

How big?

Is it a $5 rock, a $10 rock?

What are we talking about?

Sounds like an author that didn't do much investigation into

addiction, yeah.

And also shooting about 10 to 15 bags of heroin between the two of them a day, too.

10 to 15?

Yeah.

And I'm assuming these are like a quarter gram hit or something like that.

That seems like an awful lot of heroin.

It seems like a lot of heroin.

Is it 10 to 15 shots a day that they're doing?

Or are they doing bags?

And

the bags will be a shot, basically, if they're going to be.

Right.

So it's 10 to 15 shots a day.

Yeah, pretty much each if they're doing as well.

Holy shit.

They said sometimes Nielsa would use up to three bundles of heroin a day, which is 30 bags.

Think about that.

That's

that, number one, that's so much heroin to do.

And number two, if you're getting, the only way of getting money for that is prostitution, you're doing a lot of prostitution that day for that.

They charge

30 bucks a half hour.

She's spending, there's about $300 in heroin a day she's spending.

She's doing 10 blowjobs a day.

She is buried in this addiction.

Yeah, this is horrifying.

Yeah, and he's just as bad, too.

It's really bad.

She would do that.

Basically, depending on the amount of crack smoke, there'd be more heroin or less heroin is how they would do it.

So now, according to Sanchez, the boyfriend, the drug-dealing boyfriend here,

which at this point is not really dealing much.

He's just doing.

So it's not going well.

He claims that they got to the parking lot of the stop-in shop in Wethersfield,

and

he says that as they approached this parking lot, he had convinced her to start a new life.

Oh.

In the walk from their motel

along.

And this is the middle of the night, by the way.

It's 2 o'clock in the morning and all this.

He has,

they're having some weird, he said, some moment of clarity where they've decided in the middle of the night, this isn't the life for us.

We need to fix ourselves.

And he said that he persuaded her to agree to this.

I mean, she's got to be on a fix at the moment because as soon as she sobers up for a second,

she's going to go, fuck that, I'm going to be sick.

But as a matter of fact, at this point, we're not sure their exact level of highness.

They've been on and off all day, so who knows here.

But he convinced her.

This is all according to him.

He said he convinced her that she should have a long and healthy life.

And I need you.

Your kids need you.

You have four kids.

Let's turn it around.

And she said, according to him, she claimed as they approached the stop-and-shop parking lot, where all revelations of the brain happen at that point.

That's usually moments of clarity all happen as you approach a stop-and-shop parking lot.

That's a grocery store, by the way, if you're not in the northeast.

So

she said she's never going to turn another trick again

or inject any more heroin.

So it's my last dick.

Last dick and shot, my last fucking, my last

dose.

She's a mass

Done.

So she said, fuck it.

It's been too much.

I'm 33.

I got to get my shit together.

Then, when they get into the parking lot, they see a one van parked there in the parking lot, parked in the far corner of the lot.

And she said, that's Devin's van.

This is according to the boyfriend.

And he said, let's just go back to the motel.

Let's go.

Let's go back to the motel.

We don't want to see Devin.

We don't want to see Devin.

And she said, I'm just just going to say hi.

Okay.

Okay.

So she approaches this van, according to Sanchez, where Devin is in there.

Devin Howell is what she knows him as.

Sure.

Devin Howell.

Now they had met, they knew Devin here.

He wasn't even like a drug guy with them.

He was just like a

hangout guy.

They met him a few months before.

He was pumping gas at the Exxon station on the corner, not as a job.

He was just putting gas in his van.

And it was raining, and Sanchez and Nielsa were soaking wet.

So they approach Howell while he's pumping gas, even though he's a stranger, and asked him for a ride to their motel because,

yeah, we're soaking wet and we'll give you five bucks, the guy said.

Sanchez had told him.

Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you how to make your dog happier with Ollie.

Ollie.com.

O-L-L-I-E.com.

You know it.

Dogs, they can be picky.

I love my dogs.

I want them to be happy with what they're eating.

I'm not going to pour the same garbage into their bowl and make them eat it.

I wouldn't eat that.

So why do it?

Why make your dog eat it?

I have dogs with allergies.

I have aging dogs.

So Ollie is fantastic.

If your dog could talk, they'd tell you about, don't put this stuff in my bowl.

Put good stuff in my bowl, like Ollie.

Don't put mass-produced kibble.

Put things that I want.

Not mysterious byproducts from unrecognizable and unpronounceable places and fillers and all this stuff.

Ollie is here to crack the case on pet nutrition with fresh human-grade meals made with the highest quality ingredients, no mystery meats, no artificial junk, just real, minimally processed food made in U.S.

kitchens, the kind of clean eating that keeps their tails wagging, their noses wet, my friends.

I'm telling you that.

They have five protein first recipes like beef with sweet potatoes, turkey with blueberries.

Your dog's going to love it.

They're not going to have to wonder, what's this weird kibble in my bowl ever again?

You fill out their 30-second quiz.

They create a customized plan.

You get your welcome kit for first timers.

You're going to see the benefits.

They're going to be happy about this food.

They're going to be excited.

Easier to pick up poop, which is important for all of us here.

It's the only fresh dog food that comes with unlimited routine health screening so you can get your pup on track to living their healthiest, happiest life.

Dogs deserve the best and that means fresh, healthy food.

Head to ollie.com slash STM.

Tell them about your dog and use the code STM to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today.

Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box.

So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back.

That's o-l-l-i-e.com slash stm and enter code stm to get 60% off your first box.

Now back to the show.

Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to give you a better way to shop with Thrive Market.

ThriveMarket.com.

You know it.

You know what's more stressful than being busy and everything like that?

Realizing you're out of something right before you need to do something.

Let's say you're having a gathering, a meeting, you're out of coffee.

Now what do you do?

Yeah, that's why you got to stock up with Thrive Market's back to school sale.

Even if you're not going back to school, still a perfect time to get yourself stocked up.

Thrive Market makes it easier to shop for high-quality pantry staples, snacks, vitamins, even skincare without the errands or the ingredient label deep dives.

I don't have time to stand there reading labels and finding the one ingredient I don't want.

Yeah, you know what's great?

Aloha protein bars.

Those are great.

Got a bunch of those.

Delicious.

Simple Mills Crackers, the poppy drinks, of course.

Everything's delivered fast.

I saved up to 25%.

I love their tortilla chips, by the way.

The sea salts are so good.

They're delicious.

Prefer them over anybody's.

Their filters make shopping by diet or lifestyle a breeze too.

You can filter exactly what you want, if it's gluten-free or whatever it is.

And their Healthy Swaps tool can help us upgrade with the usual buys because you can just find what's a healthier option.

And they do it.

We use Thrive Market.

I love getting that big box.

It's tremendous.

Put it right on the counter and dive right into it.

Delicious stuff.

Now's the best time to try Thrive Market.

You'll get up to 25% off select items and new members get 30% off their first order plus a free gift.

Go to thrivemarket.com/slash small town murder to start saving.

The sale ends August 31st, so don't miss it.

Now back to the show.

So, Howell said, Well, he was going that direction anyway.

He was going to Lowe's to price out some supplies for a job because he's a landscaper.

Sure.

And he has his own on the van, it says on the side, you know, Devin Howell, Devin's landscaping.

Call Devin or whatever the hell.

Good for him.

Yeah, well, it's more like

I don't know if anyone's really going to hire him to do anything.

So he's like, let me get a shitty van and just put my phone number on the side, and hopefully someone will let me cut their lawn.

That's kind of what he's got going on.

It's a little more professional than just showing up with a rake.

Yeah, just

dragging a mower down the street from house to house, like a 12-year-old.

Can I cut your lawn for 20 bucks?

So he said, fuck it.

He's driving that direction anyway.

And he said, yeah, sure.

Door's unlocked.

So he said they got in.

Now, Ace here, Sanchez, claims that he and Nielsis both squeezed into the seat on the passenger side.

Oh.

They both got in there in the front because his back has all sorts of equipment back there.

That's where the fucking mower's at.

Yes.

Now, Nielsa introduced herself as Maria, which is kind of what she goes by on the street.

Nielsa goes by Maria, street name.

So they drove to the Almar Motel, very classy.

I'm sure it is.

Howell told them, and they noticed that Devin had a southern accent,

which you don't really come across very much in Northern Connecticut.

So they were like, okay, that's something that sticks out.

He had a long care business and all that.

Sanchez said he glanced over his shoulder, looked at at the van, and there's a big empty van space here.

They said it had a long bench sofa in it, like a big sofa, but it had

lawn service shit all over it.

It had his clothes were back there.

It had

weed whackers and shit.

And they said the stench of body odor was strong in the vehicle.

Like he lived in it, they said.

Smelled like he lived in it.

That sort of shit, which is always what you want.

When people open the door to your car, you want to go, ooh, what are you living in here?

Yeah.

What is that?

Is that French fries or your boss?

That's great.

So they got to the motel and they invited Devin Howell into the room to hang out.

You want to come hang?

Come on in.

Bring your armpits.

Well, yeah, come on and bring your stank with you and a weed whacker.

So he brought some beer and some weed that he had.

That's nice.

Now, the two of them, Nielsen and Sanchez, offered

him a little bit of crack.

Would you like some of our crack?

Which is very hospitable.

I mean, if we're all sharing,

you don't even know this guy.

You're already offering him some of your crack.

I think that's extremely hospitable.

So I'm, you know, that's not bad.

But he said, no, no, no, no.

He's a weed and booze guy.

I'm not a crack guy.

No, thanks.

So the three of them, you know, did their shit.

They smoked crack.

He smoked weed.

They hung out.

Classy hotel, by the way.

He tells them, Devin Howell tells them that he's living in his van and he often parked it in the stop and shop parking lot.

Yeah.

That's where he hung out.

He left the motel in less than an hour, drove back to stop and shop to sleep for the night.

And Devin later said, as he looked down at the ashtray in his truck,

he had a $20 bill in there and it was gone.

And he said, man, motherfuckers, they fucking stole, ripped me off for 20 bucks.

But they didn't stop contact with Devin.

And the few months later, after this, they had contact with him here and there.

They lived in different motels, and they would walk

from their motel to a section of New Britain where she could turn some tricks.

Okay.

So, you know, that's how that kind of goes.

So, they would rely on people to spot them and give them rides a lot.

And since he was always driving around with his business, on five, six occasions, he spotted them and picked them up.

So, not too bad for them, especially since they stole from him, for Christ's sake.

So, that's fucked up.

Now, but Sanchez claims at 2:45 that morning, that's when he watched Nielsa walk across the empty parking lot and get into the van.

She's going to go say hi.

By the way, she's very skinny now and she lost a shitload of weight.

She had been in federal prison the year before

and gained about 60 pounds because it's all starchy shit food.

And when you get out, though, and you just smoke crack and do heroin, you lose weight real fast.

Yeah.

That's the diet they're not telling you about right there.

Sure, yeah.

That's it.

Fucking keto and all this bullshit.

Your ass.

Meth and heroin, man.

Meth, heroin, don't sleep, and also walked like 12, 15 miles a day.

That'll do it.

That lifestyle.

That'll get you.

And also

your quads are going to be strong.

Glutes kicking.

Yeah, you're going to be really doing this.

It's going to look amazing.

So

he said, Sanchez said that it appeared that Nielsa stopped at the van and talked to Howell, who was in the driver's seat.

Then she walked around the van and got into the passenger seat.

Now, Sanchez said that that he heard the engine turn on and watched the van slowly drive away.

He waited for a while.

He waited for a while.

She never came back.

The van never came back.

So he went back to the hotel, at the Almar Hotel, and she never came back hours later.

Still gone.

And this is not like her.

She normally comes back because they'll do drugs together.

Yeah.

Turn the trick, get the money, buy some shit, go back to the hotel and do it and rinse and repeat.

You told her to turn her life around.

Yeah.

So about 6 a.m.

here,

Sanchez gets up and walks back to the stop-in shop parking lot and doesn't see Devin Howell's van at all.

Now, Sanchez is pissed off because at one point he had a flyer that Devin Howell had given him for his lawn care service just to show him it.

And he said he'd thrown it out.

So now he doesn't have his phone number.

Even though the phone number is on the side of the van, he doesn't remember it, you know, obviously.

So he's like, fuck, he can't get a hold.

He doesn't know how to contact the guy.

He knows that his van's at the stop-in shop.

And And if it's not there, who knows?

Sure.

So days pass.

Okay.

And Nielsa doesn't come back.

No answer from her.

She's gone.

No, and it's not like, because you might think, well, I mean, their lifestyle, maybe she found somebody else to hook up with or she took

that's not the way this works.

They've been together since they were in like the seventh grade, these two.

They have been partners in crime.

Yeah.

They've been stealing horses for decades, these two.

They're that kind of people here.

And for the last seven years, they didn't separate at all.

That was 20 years was on and off.

You know, a year here, they'd be with somebody else.

They'd come back to each other.

But for the last seven years, they've been hooked up.

You know, not a great relationship.

They're crackheads.

So if they fight,

and

he hit her, she'd hit him back.

Fucking kind of the way it worked here.

So he knew that she's tough and can take care of herself, too.

I mean, you kind of have to in that lifestyle or else you're not going to last very long.

Yes, you're not going to get 30.

Yeah.

No.

So

he's in your 30s.

No.

So he ends up, and this is a big move for a crackhead with a long criminal record.

He called the Hartford Police Department.

No shit.

Yeah, to report her missing.

He wasn't even put through to detectives, though,

because

they gave the contact information for Niels's mother, and they told him to wait three or four more days, and she'll probably show up.

Give her 72 hours.

Yes.

Because they looked up who she was, and they said, oh, she's a drug addict.

So give her fucking, yeah.

And this was after he said i haven't it's been days since she's been gone and they're like they give her a few more days which is not exactly you know great police work let's just say that's bad so she doesn't still doesn't come back and on july 31st her sister filed a missing persons report now they also might take that a little more seriously from the sister than from this crackhead right so angel yeah

they note uh that she's been involved in drugs and prostitution but emphasizing that she always she doesn't disappear like this.

This is a brand new thing.

This never happened before.

She's got four kids.

She always makes her way back to him eventually.

This is crazy.

So, yeah, he's, and Sanchez here, he's just sitting around waiting and waiting, and the police are very suspicious of him at this point.

Sure.

Niels's mother, an older sister, went.

up and down these areas that she frequents to look for, driving back and forth, asking people.

Then on August 8th, 2003, 14 days after the disappearance, Sanchez gets arrested.

Oh.

Not for the disappearance, for possession of narcotics.

Okay.

So he'd been in and out of prison for 20 years, this guy.

I mean, it's, yeah.

In 97, he had a long sentence for possession of narcotics and conspiracy to distribute heroin.

Uh-oh.

Nielsa was the co-defendant in that case.

Really?

They were caught selling, they had 470 bags of heroin.

That's a lot of heroin.

It's a lot of heroin, 45 bundles of heroin.

Or three days for them.

Yeah, I was going to say, that's not a lot of time, not going to last a long time.

So, wow.

Yeah, for them, they can actually claim personal use on that, which is crazy.

So, the detectives finally get involved now.

There's a detective Derone here, and he's going to kind of be on this till the end.

He visits the mom's house, Niels's mom's house, and asks the mother and sister questions about Sanchez.

Yeah.

Okay.

On October 2nd,

he requested, this detective requested to monitor Sanchez's phone calls and written correspondence during the length of his incarceration

because he really thinks that he had something to do with Nielsen disappearing.

Okay.

Yeah.

He marked in a police report that Sanchez had been released from prison on November 10th and went on to say, as of this write-up, he's not made an effort to contact the Weathersfield Police Department, which isn't true, actually.

No.

He actually wrote them a letter

from jail explaining that you need to look at this Devin Howell guy.

He's got a van and a landscaping company, and that's the last person I saw her with.

Right.

So that's what they're saying.

So

they get the letter, and it says that this detective is notified that she was last seen getting into a 1985 blue Ford Occano line van.

That is the ultimate molester van.

Sure enough.

Every kid knows not to get in that van.

Oh, boy.

A blue 85.

It's beat up.

Yeah.

No, he's not taking care of this thing.

Yeah.

They also learn that they figure out this van and who it's registered to, that it is actually registered to a woman, not this Devin Howell guy.

So, yeah, Sanchez sent a letter to the police detailing the van encounter in

his claims and identifying Devin as Devin Howell.

And so who the fuck is Devin Howell, first of all?

Tell me about him.

Well, William Devin Howell here

seems to go by William to people that he works with, landscaping people, things like that, or Will or Bill,

but goes by Devin on the street.

Everybody on the street calls him Devin.

So we'll just call him Devin because we started calling him Devin.

Double life.

Double life.

He is born February 11th, 1970, same age as Nielsa.

He's from Hampton, Virginia.

His mother's name was Melissa.

His father's name was John.

They were older when he was born.

His mom was 40 when he was born, which in 1970 was considered a fucking miracle.

You know what I mean?

Now every actress doesn't even start having kids until they're 44.

No, they're dropped until 44.

Think about like.

How like

easily things come to people now, especially if you have a lot of money, where you sit around and then you're at like 45, you're like, I think I'll start having kids now.

I've done some pretty amazing.

I think I'm going to settle down now.

Yeah.

It'd be like me going, what am I?

I'm in my mid-40s.

I think I'd like to play in the NBA now.

I'm going to work on that.

Now it's time.

It's over, I think, for that, probably.

But these like actresses, they don't give a fuck.

They start spitting them out.

They're figuring it out.

Crazy late.

So for 1970, very much a different deal.

John, his dad, was a hard-working blue-collar guy.

He was a machinist, left for work at 5 in the morning and was home by 5.30 every night.

Worked 12-hour shifts half the time

all day.

He has three brothers, Devin does, his two older brothers, and they're adults and gone and out of the house by the time he's born.

Yeah, yeah, I guess they will be.

They were born before his mom was 20.

So they're over 20.

That's Rocky and Randy are his two older brothers there.

And then he has another brother named Kevin.

Kevin's a few years older than him.

So, by the time Devin was born, Rocky had already been to Vietnam and back.

What?

Yeah.

Imagine being a mom and having a newborn baby and a son coming home from Nam at the same time.

My God.

Way different needs for these people.

Depending, might have the same needs.

Who knows?

So, William said his parents were old school with old school family values.

This is Devin.

They never did drugs or anything like that.

Okay.

Now, his father used to drink, but stopped drinking.

And

that was it.

Devin never saw his dad drink.

His dad quit before he was ever born.

He says it this way.

As the story was told to me, there was a Christmas party, and my two oldest brothers were teenagers, and they got drunk.

One was streaking through the neighborhood.

God, the 60s are hilarious.

Oh, man.

One took his dick out and ran down the street.

Yeah.

The other fucking was puking his guts out in the bathroom as my dad told it to you, to me.

My dad was too drunk to help either one of them.

That was the last time he took a drink and the last alcohol-fueled Christmas party they ever threw.

I believe it was back in the mid-60s, and I wasn't born until 1970.

Hilariously, they've got two kids that drank, and they both reacted the two different ways that you can react.

One's like, woo!

Woo!

No!

Who wants to see my butthole?

Yeah!

And then the other one's just fucking hacking.

Dear God, make me feel better.

I'll never do it again.

My guess is Rocky was the one with his dick out.

I don't know why.

Although Randy, his name is Randy, but I think Randy's the puker and Rocky's the streaker.

Randy's the one that's like,

it'll get good to him later.

Yeah.

Well, it was Randy's idea to go streaking, but he just couldn't make it because he was too sick.

Rocky went out and got it done.

So he says he had a nice childhood.

His earliest earliest memories are catching tadpoles and crawfished in the ditch behind the family's three-bedroom bungalow in the ditch, not in the creek, in the ditch.

At age five, he attended a boys' club on Wednesday nights, and every other Saturday, they would shoot pool and do other activities and play bingo and make model airplanes and have magic classes and all some boy scripture.

It was a child thing to do, yeah.

Yeah.

He also, they learned how to box and play dodgeball and all that kind of shit there.

So he said, my mom was always active in my life.

She knew of all the supervisors at the boys' club on a first-name basis and actively participated in fundraisers, etc.

All through elementary school, she was always a room mother to my class.

She attended PTA meetings and all that stuff.

So mom sounds a little overly involved.

Sure does.

And it's nice to be involved.

If you're always the kid's room mother, he's never separating from you and learning to be

their own person.

You have to leave them alone at some point and let them interact without you, I think.

I don't think that's healthy to always be the room mother.

Yeah, but she's also at that age where it's like that's old.

That's what she does.

She's an older mother, and that's what she's going to concentrate on is this baby now, which is very interesting here.

He said, quote,

that ditch that runs behind my house, about a mile downstream, it empties into a creek.

I used to ride my bicycle to that creek and go fishing.

All day, I'd catch, all I'd catch were carp, which were no good to eat, but they got pretty big, two to three feet long.

Yeah, those fuckers could be huge.

You could fight that motherfucker.

Oh, yeah, they're fun.

You're definitely not eating it.

He said, so they were fun to catch and let go, especially when you're eight, nine, ten years old.

He said, I was raised by a good family in a good home.

I was never abused.

I was never molested.

Really?

That's that's what Devin says here.

Uh, now, mom,

her Kevin,

his older brother, that was an unexpected one.

And so is this one.

Really?

She thought she was done at 20.

But she had a house and husband's got a job and she's got two older sons.

And so she works while she's pregnant,

she's working a night job at Whataburger to make extra money for family birthdays, which I didn't know they had Whataburger in Connecticut.

That far east, yeah.

I've never seen a Whataburger in the Northeast ever.

I don't know if that was maybe back then they tried a national expansion.

Now they kind of went back

to people that heard of them and then named them, named it.

You know what I mean?

Like Lottaburger.

I've seen those all over the fucking place.

Like Whataburger is one of these weird places that I've probably had Whataburger 20 times in my life and 10 times it was inedible and 10 times it was amazing.

Really?

That's the type.

Yeah.

10 times it's like, wow, this is the best fast food.

And then the other time I get it again and be like, this is inedible.

This is disgusting.

I don't understand.

You go to the same location, same time of day.

It makes no fucking sense.

I don't understand it.

I've had it maybe 10 times in my life, and all 10 times I was like, what's the fucking hype?

I don't know.

Oh, I've had good Whataburger.

Yeah, I've had decent Whataburger.

Yeah, the one burger.

I didn't know that they only put mustard on it until.

Oh, I love it.

Really?

I put ketchup too.

I put ketchup, too.

I like both.

Yeah.

Oh, that's all it came with.

The Whataburger on Bell Road in Phoenix there.

Yeah.

Like by 32nd Street.

That one had, there was a stoner kid that worked there all by himself at like two in the morning.

And if you you caught him at the right time just stoned enough you'd pull up to the window and watch him meticulously placing onion rings in and like making the burger like it was a science project and it was amazing like you get it you go it looks like a commercial like this kid was just stoned and taking his time because no one else is there at two in the morning yeah just you with the drive-throughs it was awesome so though if you got that kid you were in luck otherwise it's just shit in a bag People from Texas will want to murder us now.

I don't want to high 10.

Don't do that.

No, fuck fuck that.

No, yeah.

You got to

stick to the rivers and the streams that you're used to, Jimmy.

What are you doing?

I'm chasing waterfalls, Jim.

So you're out there chasing Whataburger Falls, and that's a problem.

What a falls.

What a falls.

So then mom, while pregnant with Kevin, working the night shift at Whataburger, broke her leg while working.

Wow.

And instead of getting some kind of settlement, just crutched around Whataburger in the middle of the night while eight months pregnant.

Kept going.

Kept going.

So mom's tough.

Oh, shit.

More on mom here.

According to Devin, his parents came from hard times, basically.

And basically,

I mean, they were born, mom was born in like 1930.

So we're talking depression.

Yeah.

Depression era is where they came from.

Yeah.

Pre-World War II depression era.

So he said both of his parents were raised poor.

They had no electricity or indoor plumbing in their childhoods ever.

Especially she's got fragile bones in her 40s.

Well, her mother died.

Her mother's parents, his mother's parents died when she was young.

Oh, no.

So that's, and she and her brothers were given to families on different farms in North Carolina.

Given.

Given.

That's what they used to do in the farm country.

If there was an orphan, somebody would take them, but they'd be your farm worker.

They're working.

They're working.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Melissa, that's mom,

told young Devin that when she was young, she had to heat a brick in the fireplace and wrap it in a blanket to carry it to bed to stay warm.

That was heat rock.

Oh, my God.

A hot rock.

His father told him that indoor plumbing meant there was a hand-powered water pump at the kitchen sink.

That was indoor plumbing.

He says, quote, this is Devin, my mom had a little bit of Indian in her blood, and you could see a little of it in her features.

I think one of her grandparents was Indian.

I know she told me one time that I'm like 1 16th Indian or something like that.

So is

a lot of everybody.

A lot of people say that.

Yeah.

My mom had black hair, especially in the 70s.

That was.

My mom had black hair and brown eyes and was on the heavy side.

My mom was old school and raised me as such.

Maybe she was just around too much Whataburger.

I mean, that's all.

She could have been thin before.

She was also 40 by the time, 40 and on her fourth kid by the time he was born.

So quit judging mom so harshly here.

Mustard burger, french fries, and root beer ain't going to do much good.

No.

When I did wrong,

I got spanked.

She'd spank me with fly swatters, the old wooden paddles that came with the rubber ball attached to it.

Jesus.

Okay.

The paddle ball where you go dink, dink, ding.

Oh,

the game.

Yeah, take the ball off, and it's a yank that rubber band ball off and it's a bad bag.

Take that ball so it'll beat the shit out of kids

and attach to it with a rubber band.

I remember hiding those under the couch cushions, or she'd make me get, or

she'd make me go get a switch.

And don't bring back any rinky-dink stuff either, she'd say, or she'd go get a bigger switch.

Oh, boy.

She told the neighbors that if I were at their house playing and got out of line, they had permission to spank me and send me home.

None ever did, but the message was sent for me to be on point.

That was so normal back then.

Like I said, I was told the story 100 times as a kid in the 80s.

My grandfather told my fucking...

It's first grade teacher, you can go ahead and smack them around.

And they were horrified.

But this was in the 70s in North Carolina.

It was a little,

you know, if I was really, if I was really bad, mom would tell dad and he'd spank me with the belt when he got home.

But with all that said, I don't feel I was ever abused in any way.

My parents never hit me with their fists and never beat me just for shits and giggles or because they had a bad day.

I never got a spanking I didn't earn and I have no marks or scars from them.

My mom was old school.

That's what he said.

Yeah, he said that

his life growing up was better than his his parents.

He said there was always food on the table, clothes on our back, heat in the winter and AC in the summer.

Okay.

That's nice, yeah.

Solidly blue-collar, you know, middle-class.

We never received welfare or food stamps, and I paid full price in the lunch line.

We were far from rich, but we weren't poor either.

My father was tight with money, but we always had what we needed.

It's not a responsible middle-class family, he comes from.

He said that

a lot of the meals in their house came from the garden.

So in addition to what a burger, she had time to have a garden.

Growing shit.

Jesus.

Pickled beets, butterbeans, and squash, and also jams and jellies.

God, that is some southern shit.

Wow.

That his mother made from her annual summer venture at a place that let people pick their own strawberries for very cheap.

He said, mom knew how to do all that stuff, and there was always dinner on the table when pops got home.

And I'm talking a home-cooked meal, not no throw in a box, throw a box in the microwave type stuff.

Back then, there were no microwaves.

Well, there were microwaves in 1980.

Yeah, there were microwaves, plenty of them.

So Melissa,

she still kept working at Whataburger

in addition to her day job, too.

She did.

Two jobs.

Man, she got sick when Devin was about 11 years old.

He said, my mom worked part-time at a little burger joint called Whataburger.

She worked that job for over 20 years.

I remember on Saturday saturday night she'd bring home cheeseburgers and french fries when she came home those were some good burgers my mom also worked as a school lunch lady during the day oh man see she's even at school at lunch but she didn't start that job till i was in the third or fourth grade man she was so she's like the classroom mom and then goes to lunch lady jesus christ

man uh when she was in her early 50s she ended up getting a mastectomy and radiation and chemo from cancer and uh she was out of work for a little while according to devin and then she tried to go back to work but after a few weeks she had a stroke while working oh dang jesus well imagine that slopping out like yeah instant school mashed potatoes and stroking out and falling on the floor that's a horrible way to go and going through chemo too that probably the chemo is probably what brought the stroke on that weakened her definitely so she had uh then she had a bunch of additional strokes that left her paralyzed on the left side of her body

they had to set up a hospital bed in the living room in front of the window so she could just basically, she had three more years where she just basically sat in that bed and stared out the window and then she died.

So he said, dad was busy trying to get to work and take care of mom and didn't really have the time or energy to deal with the

and control a defiant teen.

So I pretty much did what I wanted.

And back then, it seemed all I wanted to do was drink and spend time with Mandy.

Now, Mandy's

on and off girlfriend for years and years years here.

All right.

He said, while I was at my girlfriend's getting laid and trying to forget my problems, my mother died.

I was 15.

Oh, my God.

He was over banging Mandy when mom died?

He's over with a moist dick fucking talking about, I'm sad now.

So

he said it was a relief to me when she passed away because I knew she was no longer suffering.

I couldn't stand to see her like that.

She asked me on more than one occasion to get her my father's pistol and go outside and play.

Get me the pistol and leave the room is not a good request.

Jesus.

Give me a pistol, go get a stick and dig a hole.

Wow.

That's great.

Keep digging.

I'm going to need it.

Holy shit.

Dig deep.

Like six feet.

Six.

Wide.

Fuck.

He said, I couldn't stand to see her suffer, nor could I give her my father's gun, and it really fucked me up inside not being able to help her.

It still stirs up a lot of memories and a lot of emotions just remembering those times.

My father passed away away five years later after I turned 20.

I've been pretty much on my own since then.

I got an inheritance in bits and pieces that I rapidly pissed away following a short, followed shortly by a jail sentence.

Right.

So he basically started drinking when his mom was sick.

And this is, you know, when he's 14, 13 years old, he's drinking.

And that's when he said during the height of all this, when he was at the most stress, this is when he first

engaged the services of a prostitute.

Yeah.

Yes.

At the age of 14.

14, he'd grabbed his dad's car at one o'clock in the morning.

Okay.

Imagine getting caught.

Okay.

Imagine getting caught stealing your dad's car.

Number one.

That's a beating.

Imagine getting caught stealing your dad's car because you went to get a prostitute when you're in the ninth grade.

At one in the morning.

At one in the morning.

He wrote that he said later he was sneaky when he took his father's car out at night.

He said he did it a lot in his teenage years.

His dad worked real hard and slept real hard.

So he wasn't getting up in the middle of the night.

He said, even down to disconnecting the speedometer cable as to not put miles on the car.

Is that right?

Wow.

And unlocking the steering wheel and rolling the window down and placing it neutral and pushing it out of the driveway before starting it and then ghost riding it back into the driveway, lights out, engine off on the ride home.

Oh my God.

He would fill up the gas exactly how much it had.

Yeah.

He said, usually he took Mandy out for a drive.

And he said, a lot of times we'd go to Yorktown or to that little nature park across the James River Bridge.

Yeah.

He said that that night, though, the night he first engaged the services of a lady, he said he went cruising to the Red Light District.

He said, quote, I picked up a prostitute and got my first blowjob from a prostitute.

I was 14 at the time.

After that, I was hooked and picked up prostitutes for blowjobs whenever I had the chance and the means.

He goes, wow, I could just get a blowjob whenever I want.

My goodness.

That was easy.

It was my secret addiction.

I mean, it's blowjobs.

I like blowjobs.

It's not a bridge that far.

You know what I mean?

It's not

my crazy addiction.

That's not you sitting around eating your pubic hair.

This is normal having somebody else eat your pubic hair.

You're not drinking fucking ALL the stainlifter over here.

You're fucking.

This is normal.

If I had the money, God.

If I had the money

and was by myself and passed a whore on the street, I picked her up.

Going rate was 20 bucks, and I probably picked up hundreds over the years.

Hundreds.

Thousands of dollars pissed away.

He's later asked, what's the best concert you've ever been to?

Yeah.

And he said, I haven't gone to many concerts, but mostly did when I was a teenager.

Ronnie James Dio was good.

He's one of my favorites.

And Metallica.

That's not bad.

He likes Metallica.

Yeah, early 80s.

That metal shit would have been huge when he was a teenager.

So he ended up, he said that one moment that really fucked him up was going to jail in Virginia.

How old?

I think he's about 18 at this point.

He served his time in jail in Virginia for driving without a license.

And we'll find out how he actually got into jail because he would do this all the time.

He got busted like dozens dozens of times for that.

So eventually they put him in jail.

Yeah, eventually they just put him in jail.

Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to give you a better way to shop with Thrive Market.

ThriveMarket.com.

You know it.

You know, it's more stressful than being busy and everything like that.

Realizing you're out of something right before you need to do something.

Let's say you're having a gathering, a meeting, you're at a coffee.

Now what do you do?

Yeah, that's why you got to stock up with Thrive Market's back to school sale.

Even if you're not going back to school, still a perfect time to get yourself stocked up.

Thrive Market makes it easier to shop for high quality pantry staples, snacks, vitamins, even skincare without the errands or the ingredient label deep dives.

I don't have time to stand there reading labels and finding the one ingredient I don't want.

Yeah, you know what's great?

Aloha protein bars.

Those are great.

Got a bunch of those.

Delicious.

Simple Mills crackers, the poppy drinks, of course.

Everything's delivered fast.

I saved up to 25%.

I love their tortilla chips by the way the sea salts are so good they're delicious prefer them over anybody's their filters make shopping by diet or lifestyle a breeze too you can filter exactly what you want if it's gluten-free or whatever it is and their healthy swaps tool can help us upgrade with the usual buys because you can just find what's a healthier option and they do it we use thrive market i love getting that big box it's tremendous put it right on the counter and dive right into it delicious stuff now's the best time to try Thrive Market.

You'll get up to 25% off select items and new members get 30% off their first order plus a free gift.

Go to thrivemarket.com slash small town murder to start saving.

The sale ends August 31st, so don't miss it.

Now back to the show.

Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you how to save some money with Rocket Money.

RocketMoney.com.

You know it.

Everybody knows there are things that they can do to reduce their monthly costs and improve their finances.

We all have those things.

But do you have time to go through everything you've ever spent and figure out where this dollar goes and that and what to trim?

No, because then you wouldn't have time to make any of the money.

It'd be crazy.

Get Rocket Money to crunch those numbers for you and they can level up your money game a little bit easier than you can.

I'm telling you now here, Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

And

they've worked for me.

I found stuff that I was paying for for years, subscriptions.

So it's amazing.

Their dashboard lays out your whole financial picture here, including bill due dates and pay dates in a way that's easy to digest.

You can even automatically create custom budgets based on your spending.

They show you all your expenses in one place, including subscriptions you forgot about.

If you see a script, a subscription you no longer want, Rocket Money will help you cancel it.

They'll even try to negotiate lower bills for you.

You do not have time to wait on hold.

No.

Rocket Money does.

That's the good thing.

The app automatically scans your bills to find opportunities to save and then goes to work to get you better deals.

They'll even cost talk to customer service for you.

Wow.

That is amazing.

Rocket Money's 5 million members have saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, with members saving up to $740 a year when they use all the app's premium features.

Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money.

Go to rocketmoney.com slash small town murder today.

That's rocketmoney.com slash small town murder.

Rocketmoney.com slash small town murder.

Now back to the show.

All right, quick break.

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Amazon Music.

Amazon Music Who?

Amazon Music where Prime members can listen to top comedy podcasts ad-free.

No awkward interruptions, just non-stop laughs from your favorite shows.

It's free, it's funny, and hey, it's better than my knock-knock jokes.

Download the Amazon music app and let the good times roll or go to amazon.com slash ad free comedy.

That's amazon.com/slash ad free comedy to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads.

So, and it wasn't a long time, but he said during this period, he got very angry and he started having fantasies.

Oh,

fantasies.

His fantasies were mainly about rape.

Those are his fantasies.

Yeah.

Don't know how.

He said that somehow being in jail and making him angry he was in jail triggered these rape fantasies of his.

Perpetrate, yeah.

Very odd reaction to that.

Made

that was not where I would jump.

I'll rape anything.

Not in jail.

I'm not like looking to rape other inmates to show I'm boss.

When I get out, boy, I'm going to show those ladies.

I'm going to go raping.

Yeah, even though I got pulled over for driving without a license, which has nothing to do with that.

You don't connect, yeah.

It's really, really weird.

Now,

in 1991, by age 21, he's living in a trailer in Castleberry, Florida, near Orlando,

with Mandy and their now infant son.

Well, at least he's got Mandy.

Oh, God, Jesus, this is a mess.

Now, he's got a kid.

This guy's got a kid.

This is a young man.

He's 21 at this point, 1991.

He said, as far as how my mom liked Mandy, I don't even know if they ever met.

None of my friends ever came to the house.

I was always trying to stay away from home, not bring people home.

It was very rare that my friends came to my house.

Sure.

That makes sense as a teenager because from the time he's 12 to 15, his mom is posted up in the living room in a hospital bed, half dead, asking anyone who walks by to bring her back a pistol when you fucking return.

You know, a lot of friends really probably get involved in that.

But he still, years later, was just pining for Mandy.

Yeah.

He said, Mandy is a good girl.

She doesn't drink or use drugs.

She was one of the best things that ever happened to me.

And I wish that back then I would have had enough sense to be more responsible and do what I needed to do to keep her in my life.

I took her for granted and didn't treat her as good as I should have.

And I don't blame her for leaving me because I was a wreck.

There you go.

That's it.

So, like we said,

he's plowing away over here.

I don't think he's probably doing it very responsibly.

They have a child.

When they broke up, Mandy, at that point, they had two children, by the way.

Oh.

And Mandy took the kids, married somebody else, and moved out of state.

Uh-oh.

And he never saw the kids.

He had nothing to do with them.

Didn't know a fucking thing about them.

They were just gone.

Gone like her.

Yeah.

So he said, and he said he deserved it.

He said, just not showing her how much I loved her and taking her love for me for granted.

I'd get drunk and pick fights or start arguments with her when she'd done nothing wrong.

There was definitely times when I was just an asshole toward her.

But at the end of the day, she knew she was the boss and I would do anything she says.

I don't know why I was this way, but I learned from it.

After I lost her, I never treated anyone like that again.

Is that right?

You know, kindly.

He said, but I wasn't a drunk that constantly beat her like she portrayed me to the cops.

I slapped her one time, and that's because she kicked me in the nads.

Right in the nads.

I just pictured that scene.

Kick, pop, ow, slap.

Like, that's a horrifying.

Write that and break up, never go, never be with each other again.

He said, and we got in a bad fight in Florida, and I picked her up by the arms and threw her onto the bed.

I threw her onto the bed because I knew it wouldn't hurt her.

But the honest truth, that's the extent of me ever putting my hands on her.

Never hit, never hit Mandy.

That's what he says.

He said one time while they were in the middle of splitting up, she had started liking another dude.

Yeah.

He didn't like that.

He said it was in the parking lot of a 7-Eleven,

and Mandy's new flame and Devin got in a fight with each other.

Oh boy.

In the 7-Eleven parking lot.

Fantastic.

So we got Florida trailer parks and 7-Eleven parking lot fights.

I am so happy Mandy took those kids and got the fuck away from this guy.

Devin ended up grabbing a tire iron from his car and went to hit the guy with it, but Mandy got in the way and he ended up hitting her by accident and injuring her.

Oh, for heaven.

She jumped jumped in front.

He said it was an accident.

He said, I was trying to knock the shit out of Seth.

You know how that is when you're trying to knock the shit out of someone with a tire iron.

You get tunnel vision.

It happens.

How many times that happened to you, Jimmy?

I mean, Jesus Christ.

I can't count that high.

Wow.

I was trying to take his fucking head off.

So

he said, you know, I hurt Mandy with that tire iron, but it only left her with a little bruise on her leg.

That's all she she got from it.

He said later on, when I watched a video of Mandy being interviewed, she looked so sad.

He said the transformation of Mandy's demeanor from that shy and sweet-spirited girl to this sad, middle-aged woman freaked him out, basically, later on.

But he said even he was happy his kids don't know him, and we'll find out why.

Now, at this time, he has more legal troubles once Mandy leaves.

His criminal record includes convictions for larceny and burglary in Virginia, as well as arrests in Georgia and New Jersey.

He's really running it.

He is getting around.

Tri-state area.

Fuck.

I mean, by the time he was 19, before Mandy even left, he had two DUIs already and was driving with his license suspended.

So

yeah.

Virginia courts ended up using the combination of those offenses to declare him a habitual offender,

which resulted in him having his license taken away for 10 years.

Right.

Now, he's not going to stop driving.

10 years of no driving.

How do you get around?

Well, any charges after that will be labeled as habitual offenses and as felonies and would carry one to five year sentences anytime he drove.

So this is wild.

And this is what he did.

He would be in and out of jail because he'd always be driving.

Has to, yeah.

Yeah.

I guess he came to live with some of his family in Virginia in the early 90s after Mandy took off.

That's during this time when he keeps getting arrested for driving.

But I guess it was his aunt, his aunt's house, but his aunt kicked him out after a few weeks because he kept getting in trouble.

So he said that he couldn't resist the urge to drive.

He would buy cheap cars for 300 bucks and would license them with out-of-state tags that he would steal off of cars in motel parking lots.

Yeah, the need for speed, James.

That seems real sustainable, too.

Who's got the urge to drive?

That bad.

I need to drive, man.

I got $300 and I'll get a $300 car.

Ted Bundy, Randy Woodfield.

Yeah.

Guys like that need to drive.

They love it.

The urge to find different surroundings and different people.

He comes from that time and he really feels like that.

He said he tried to find Florida tags because Florida drivers...

weren't required to have an inspection, city tax, or emission stickers on their windshields.

You just have a car and just drive it.

So he wanted that, but he said he always got busted anyway and he'd end up going to jail for a while and getting out.

He said this about his whole kind of up until his early 20s.

I screwed up my life at an early age.

I've pondered many hours at what point it was that my life went wrong.

And after all of that, I've concluded that my life went wrong when I started drinking.

I always thought that losing my license for 10 years at the age of 18 is where my life went wrong, but it goes back further than that.

Yeah, 18, you're already, the cement is dry in your brain.

You're already fucked up.

No, if you're fine by 18, you'll probably be okay.

You know what I mean?

It's one of those things.

He said, it goes back further.

If it hadn't been for my drinking, I'd have never lost my license.

He said, don't get me wrong.

I'm not an asshole who does stupid shit every time I drink.

But most of the trouble I've been in happened while drinking.

And I wasn't the type who went out looking for trouble when I drank.

For the most part, I was a happy drunk.

But drinking did make me less likely to avoid or walk away from trouble that came my way.

Well, yeah, he said, Shit, I was likely to let it go if I was sober and was less likely to let it go if I'd been drinking.

So it's not that I went out looking for trouble when I drank,

I was just less likely to run away from it.

I should have stuck to smoking pot and left alcohol alone.

Yes.

Imagine if everybody who just had that revelation and did it, it was a much better place.

Yeah.

I'm telling you right now.

He also

has

something that he

calls his dick his ding-dong, which I find hilarious for some reason.

In his adult age?

In his adult life.

And he said that he, quote, loved getting his ding-dong sucked off, which I've never heard that term before.

My ding-dong sucked off.

Sucked off.

You've been...

Between the two of us, we've been friends with a lot of guys and like high school guys and immature guys.

And none of them have ever said, she sucked off my ding-dong.

I've never heard heard it once, ever.

Got my ding-dong.

My ding-dong sucked off.

We would all laugh at him.

He'd be like, Your ding-dong sucked off?

What?

Even as teenagers, even if you're getting a blowjob, we'd still laugh at you.

She's sucking your ding-dong.

Is that right?

She got any friends to come over and kiss my pee-pee, you weirdo.

You can go up to that girl and you could be like, You want a guy with a dick and not a ding-dong, my friend?

Let's go, honey.

So

he would

also pay prostitutes for more than blowjobs sometimes.

One time in 94, he hired a prostitute in Newport News, Virginia, and he says he, quote, shacked up with her for three days in a motel room.

Girlfriend experience for three days.

Three days.

This was following his father's death when he had money because he's got a few bucks.

He got $300 worth of crack.

Yeah.

Jesus Christ.

And, quote, this chick fucked my brains out for three days straight.

Jesus.

She took a hit or two here or there, but the crack was mainly for her.

Oh, he took a hit or two here or there.

Here or there.

You know, if you're going to fuck for three days.

Amongst friends.

But the crack was mainly for her.

I remember it would make me sick throwing up every time I'd smoke it.

But it also had me hard as a rock and going and going like the energizer bunny.

Whoa.

He said that that particular woman stands out to him, quote, because she gave the best top sex, meaning girl on top.

that I've ever had in my life.

I mean the best, he said.

We were just grinding and found an unbelievable rhythm.

It's like I was trying to break it off inside her, and she was doing the exact same.

It's ding-dong he's talking about there, in case you were wondering.

It, in this case, is his ding-dong.

That's a fascinating thing to say.

This guy says a lot of fascinating shit.

We found a great rhythm, and it was like she was trying to break it off inside her.

And I was trying to do the same.

I was trying to do the same.

Break it off inside her, really.

That's the best.

That's a grind.

That's a hard grind.

That's the best, boy.

I don't know.

I don't get like, I want to do a bunch of Coke and fuck for three days without coming.

Makes no sense to me.

Also,

what are we doing here?

That's why I don't like Coke.

I told her I was trying to put her out of business for a few days, but I think she got the better of me.

I know when we parted ways, my pelvic bone was sore and bruised for days.

She ground him into

the breast.

Yeah.

So she probably had to take a day off too.

I don't know.

Yeah.

2003, actually 2001 to 2003 kind of does a half-ass move to Connecticut.

Yeah.

He ends up in New Britain where he's running a small landscaping business.

And I mean so small, it's out of his van that he also lives in.

That he's not allowed to own or drive.

No, it's definitely running it like out of his house, which it doesn't exist.

So

he got the van, the 85 Fort O'Connell line, and it had a sign on the side saying quality lawn service, call Devin with his phone number.

Now, Bill, when he first came up in 2001, he does not like the climate here.

He grew up in, you know, down south.

North Carolina, yeah.

And he doesn't like the climate.

So

the first couple years, he would leave New England in the late fall and go down to Virginia or North Carolina.

and try to get more work down there.

Sure.

There's no landscaping work in Connecticut in January.

No, it's snowblowing.

It's just zero.

So at this point, he's got a girlfriend also

in New Britain.

We'll talk about that.

But she didn't mind him going away for four or five months at a time and then coming back.

It's kind of the best.

She was fine with that.

Yeah.

That's a mature relationship.

That's an older, that's a lady over 30, and she's just like, I get enough of you when you're here.

That's good.

You're going to be gone a while?

All right.

See you around.

I'll catch up on my reading, and I'll see you then.

Have a good one.

So now, at one point in one of his back and forths to Virginia, because he does this all the time in North Carolina,

during a visit down there, he asked a friend of his to help clean out his van that he had parked in the driveway.

Now, this guy, he said, upon entering through the sliding glass door,

or through the glass door of the van, seeing looking in and then sliding it open, he said the first thing he noticed was how much it fucking stunk.

He said it just stunk in there.

He assumed it was body odor.

He said, if a guy works landscaping all day in the heat and sleeps in his van, it's not going to smell good in there, basically, which makes sense.

And he said there's also grass, oil, gasoline smells mixed in.

So they emptied the van out, which included weed whackers, lawnmowers, bags of clothes, and all this type of shit here.

They said the blue bench near the van sliding door was intact with both a bottom cushion and a matching back cushion at that time.

This is important for later.

According to those reports, this guy, the friend, watched as Devin removed the stained cushion that lined the bottom bench, rolled it up, and put it in a large plastic bag.

Oh.

Then he walked it to the curb and left it there for trash pickup.

Okay.

So

that's

interesting.

He doesn't need the bottom cushion.

The part that you sit on.

Yeah.

The friend didn't think anything of it.

He thought maybe he spilled something, who knows?

And then this guy ended up, you know, he took off a couple of days later, and that was that.

Now, his new girlfriend, we'll call her Dorothy here,

she is with him.

And on November 12th, 2003,

after Sanchez there had been telling the cops about...

Find Devin, yeah.

You got to find Devin.

You got to find Devin.

They finally say, well, maybe we should look at this Devin guy.

Sure.

Basically.

So they attempt to go just talk to him.

The van is registered to his girlfriend.

Dorothy.

Dorothy.

So they go to her house because if it's registered to her and he's driving it, he probably lives there, is the way they're looking at it.

So

they were turned away.

Dorothy said, not here.

Don't know what you're talking about.

But then they saw a guy through the window

by the sink.

So they were like, we don't know what this guy looks like, but that's a guy in there.

And she's saying she's alone.

So that's interesting.

So they left and then they came back at another point.

By the way, when they came back, he was

about to plow his girlfriend here.

Oh.

Yeah.

They were about to fuck, and

that's his favorite.

They had some wild sex, too.

She's talking about she had like an array of sex toys she liked him to use, and they did crazy positions.

They were having fun here.

They had sex at least two or three times a day.

Dang.

Jesus.

And at the same time, he's picking up several prostitutes a week as well.

Really?

Yeah, this guy has a lot of jizz.

Just a lot of jizz, man.

That's a lot of people.

He's so unsatisfied.

I am way too lazy to go out and seek that kind of sex out.

I'm just too lazy.

That's my favorite thing.

And I can do it maybe once.

I'm too lazy.

I'm just not going out.

So much.

I'm not going to go out and look for it.

You know what I mean?

Especially if I'm getting it.

That's crazy.

So I don't understand that at all.

So

anyway,

she said

she told him that

he's the best lover she ever had and all this type of shit, too.

It doesn't stop.

Well, yeah.

And she said, you take your time.

That's because he came five times already today.

Of course he takes his time.

He's trying to get this thing hard again.

No, shit.

So anyway, they were.

About to get into it when they saw a cop car pull in the driveway.

Yeah.

So they're outside,

which

interesting here.

So

he had, they're looking for it.

They knock on the front door.

No one answered.

All the lights are off.

They walk to the side door and they see a dim figure of a white male with longish blonde hair standing over the sink in the kitchen.

So the cops went to the rear door and knocked.

Here comes Dorothy.

She's described as a stout, middle-aged woman, by the way.

She opened the door.

And she said, what do you want?

And so they said, well, we want to know about this van.

Whose van is this?

What's going on?

So she says, I'll show you the fucking van.

Let's go.

So they go out to the van, and I think she's just trying to get them away from the house, however, that she can.

So they said the windows on each side were broken and covered by dark blue painted plywood.

Jesus.

All-class.

Patches of rust on the bottom of the doors.

And the tires were bald.

This is not good.

Very safe vehicle.

On the side, though, quality lawn service called Evan with the phone number.

They said, who drives that van other than you?

She said, why do you want to know?

Uh-huh.

And they said, because we need to know.

So she said, okay, a friend of mine named Thomas sometimes

drives the van, but I don't even know where he lives.

So

I don't know what to tell you.

So the cop says, this is DeRowan, by the way, that detective.

He said, I think the operator of the van lives with you.

I think he's in the home right now,

calling her out.

She says, I don't know what you're talking about.

I only live with my two kids.

Gross.

And then this guy's coming over and plowing her multiple times a day.

Crazy.

I don't know anything about stolen lawn because they basically this guy lied and said the cop lied and said we're investigating some stolen lawn equipment.

That's what this is about.

She said that I don't know anything about stolen lawn care equipment.

Are you saying someone told you I know about it?

When did it get stolen?

Who said they saw my van?

So she's asking reasonable questions.

They wouldn't give any details because they made it up.

So they didn't have any details to give.

So she got real pissed off, Dorothy, ran back in the house and called the police department on the cops.

Okay.

Which is an interesting move.

911, I got some guys here.

Yeah, you know.

I got some guys here.

Come get them.

And then they call back and go, yeah, they're already there.

So

we got the guys there to get the guys.

Yeah.

She said,

yeah, she said that she was all pissed off and any of this type of shit.

So the detectives just left,

basically.

They found the van.

They know where it is.

They're good.

They want a polygraph.

The first polygraph they gave to Sanchez, he failed.

Oh.

So they get back in touch with him in December and ask him to take another polygraph.

He's excited to do that.

This time it's inconclusive.

We're getting better anyway.

So the inconclusiveness, the fact that he didn't fail it outright, this detective said, I don't think he's the guy.

Even though

it seems like he's the guy, he's made up some story about her disappearing.

I'm looking at this William Devin Howell asshole.

Let's find out more about him.

So they did a National Criminal Information Center, NCIC, check on Devin.

Yeah.

Found out that the New Britain Police Department had an outstanding warrant on him for a charge of assault in the third degree for hitting his girlfriend, Dorothy, who's now protecting him.

Oh.

So they were like, okay, they recently had a fight.

According to the police report, he ripped the telephone from the wall to prevent her from calling the police.

She tried to run upstairs, but he physically restrained her and punched her in the stomach and then punched her in the back of the head and her left eye.

Holy shit.

So they print out his picture and the one cop says to the other, recognize this fucking guy?

And he says, that's the guy who was standing in her kitchen by the sink.

Son of a bitch.

He was there the whole fucking time.

So they were like, fuck.

They probably, you know, she knew her boyfriend's got a record and he said, don't let him talk to me.

And it's for landscaping things.

And, you know, he might have stole a goddamn fucking rake from somebody.

Who cares?

She's like, I didn't steal any of that.

Let him fucking look around.

Let him do it.

So,

but then again, she could also be afraid of him because he beat the crap out of her.

Now, he

says he didn't beat her up.

He says that this was all Dory's fault, actually, is what he calls her.

He says, all I can say is that Dory was the aggressor.

She punched me in the face with her fist and I slapped her back.

So that's twice now he's admitted to domestic violence, but both times it's the woman's fault.

And he's said he's never hit a woman.

Yeah, but both times she hit me first.

Yeah.

That's his bullshit.

I didn't punch her and I didn't slap her hard in trying to hurt her, but I did slap her upside or noggin.

Weird way to put that.

To let her know that she just can't punch me in the face and me not do anything.

She knew I couldn't call the cops because I had an outstanding warrant for a probation violation for driving on suspension.

And I knew that if I did something, if I did nothing at all, that the next time she got mad, I was going to get hit again.

She called the cops and I left before they got there.

And they took out a warrant for assault on me based on her statements.

It got thrown out and she never hit me again, nor I her.

Okay.

Interesting.

This was on Monday.

I guess there's a police report for March 4th, 2004, noting the domestic violence incident, which occurred on January 25th, 2003,

which, by the way, was, we'll find out, but there's a week before something happened, basically.

He said, though, it was 14 months old and there had been no violence since.

And the report said the victim would like the matter closed, and that's when they dismissed the case.

So November 28th, 2003, they finally catch up with Devin and his van down in North Carolina

of all places.

He's down there.

They checked and found out that the van

was in North Carolina because he had been pulled over down there.

So it was in the report.

So he'd been arrested for motor vehicle violations by a sheriff's deputy the day after Thanksgiving at 11.46 p.m.

He provided false photo ID with the name of a nephew and a false date of birth as March 17th, 1971.

He posted Bond and was scheduled to appear at the courthouse on January 30th, 2004.

So the cops from Connecticut,

they go down and he shows up for court that day.

Devin does.

They said that it took some work, but the detectives from Connecticut were able to convince North Carolina authorities to detain Bill at the correctional center to await extradition to Connecticut because they wanted to talk to him about the murder or the missing woman at this point.

So he's extradited on February 19th, 2004, to Connecticut on a probation violation charges from a prior conviction, and he's interviewed now, okay, about the Arismendi woman.

Okay.

So on the way back to Connecticut, they're driving him there.

This Darone, this detective, he sat next to Devin in the back seat.

And about three hours into the drive,

fucking Devin turns to the detective and said, why'd you travel 800

miles one way for a misdemeanor warrant?

Yeah, what the hell?

And the detective said, do you really want to know why?

Yeah.

And he nodded.

And this guy, the detective pulled out a folder, pulled out a picture of Nielsa.

Yeah.

And then Bill's eyes widened.

And he said, Detective Darone, why don't you leave me alone?

Yeah, this is the worst trip I've ever been on.

I don't want to be here, basically.

And he moved away from the detective in the car and leaned back in the seat and gazed out the window and said, I will not speak to you without my attorney present.

They gave him lunch and dinner on the road, dropped him off, and he's there on a $100,000 bond.

Okay.

Now, that's how this goes.

By the way, he's briefly released in May 2004.

Really?

And then they ended up getting him back again because they were like, why'd you do that?

Get him back.

Now,

at the time when they got him, he was living out of his van, sleeping in it and using it as his base of operations.

They get a warrant to seize the van.

Oh.

What they found was a bloodstain on the back cushion of the middle seat, like the up and down, the vertical cushion.

They said they also discovered that several of the seat cushions had been removed, but blood from two people was found soaked into the floor of the van underneath some carpet.

Okay.

Very interesting.

They find out also that he has been calling his van the murder mobile for quite some time now.

Why?

That's an interesting question.

I guess he owned a black car in Virginia he called the Batmobile.

Yeah.

And

he started calling the van the murder mobile in about 2002.

Okay.

Which is just fucking strange.

The murder mobile.

Yeah.

So detectives for North Carolina had seized the vehicle, and they knew they didn't touch it.

They didn't do anything in it.

They just looked in it, and they didn't even open the door here.

So they let them do that here.

They said all they could see was a beat-up old vehicle and hedge trimmers, a set of jumper cables on the floorboard, an orange extension cord reel between the driver and passenger seat.

Plastic jugs littered the back.

Those are pea jugs.

Think those contained piss at some point.

So

included in the inventory were items of lawn equipment, bins of clothing, work tools, business books, and, of course, porn tapes.

You bet.

Yeah.

He had some VHSs going on.

Tuggables, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I got to have that.

I mean, he's only getting laid three times a day at home, a couple times with a prostitute.

You got to whack off in the middle somewhere there.

Yeah, if it gets harder.

Nobody's there.

What are you going to do?

You got to jerk it.

Yeah, that's all it is here.

So they said that they saw the blue seat back with the stains on it, visible to the eye.

They also noticed a stain on the blue upholstered seat back.

They said that a presumptive test using chemical shit showed that it was positive for blood.

Although the back portion of the bench had not been itemized on the search warrant, blood was itemized, so

they had reason to seize the seat back.

So

they removed two non-matching seat cushions in plain view because they were not specifically listed in the search warrant.

Once cleared, the van was dusted for prints, palm prints, hairs, fibers, all that shit.

They collected front and rear carpet samples and everything else.

They said there was remnants of original seating material on the portion of the metal frame where

there was, you know, that other part of the seat once went.

So they said the cushions were enclosed in a pillowcase made of a lighter fabric, though.

They appeared to have come from a sofa from someone's living room.

Oh.

He got some house cushions and brought them out to his van,

which is creative.

So they said, unlike the seat back, the cushions were not bolted to the bench.

So they said that they were looked at for bloodstains.

Ultimately, they seized this.

Hairs and

fibers.

Fibles.

What the fuck is that?

Fibles.

Fibles from the rearmost portion of the vehicle.

That's exactly what I thought, too.

A rock containing stains and attached hair and hair-like fibers from the rearmost portion of the van.

God dang.

A one blue-in-color carpet sample from the floor of the rearmost portion of the van.

One light blue in color carpet sample from the passenger side vertical wall of the rear cargo area of the van.

One light in blue color carpet sample from the driver's side vertical wall of the rear cargo area of the van.

A red in color blood-like flakes from the carpet of the driver's side interior rear wheel well of the van.

One stake type knife with black in color plastic handle and with red in color blood-like stains on the cutting portion from behind the floor,

from the floor behind the driver's side front seat of the van.

Hairs and fibers from the middle section, the floor and seat of the van.

One pink in color carpet sample from the floor.

One blue in color fabric covered seat back portion containing red in color blood-like stains from the rear seating area.

Hairs and fibers from the frontmost section on the floor and seats of the van.

So in the search warrant, they were included.

They're looking for any items that may have been worn by Nielsa on the day she went missing.

A tie-dyed t-shirt, jean shorts, black sneakers, and a woman's blue rock watch with a blue band.

The search did not produce any of those items.

Wow.

They also reported that they found one pornographic title.

They had a bunch of tapes in there, but one title called Score Fantasy Girls and five other videos.

Score fantasy.

I don't know if it's an instructional video on how to score fantasy girls or these are the girls from scores.

I don't know what's going on.

But it's score fantasy girls.

They later found other videotapes that Bill Devin was in

with different women.

Oh, he's making his own.

None of which the women's faces are ever visible.

Oh, that's weird.

It's real fucking creepy.

There's a couple, they said they had grainy images very quickly of two two women on the videotapes that they could get a picture of and maybe somebody could see.

But otherwise, none of the women on the tapes are identified.

Okay.

So, yeah, they found this is six VHXS tapes.

Now, besides the fantasy score girls or whatever it is, they're score fantasy girls, all the others pictured.

Howell in what were described as bizarre sexual acts with women.

And their faces were either barely or not visible at all.

And so they're like, who the fuck are these ladies?

What's going on here?

So they sent the blood to the state crime lab for DNA testing.

When the results came back, they had a match.

The blood they found belonged to Nielsa

with 99% certainty.

Oh, no.

And there's blood from another unidentified woman in there.

Oh, no.

And they find more blood.

Oh, no.

It has nothing to do with Nielsa or this other woman or him.

So

now he's sitting in jail in June of 2004 awaiting what the fuck's going to happen, his fate here.

He tells another inmate that I'm not worried about it because the cops can't get a murder conviction without what, Jimmy?

A body.

No body.

No crime.

No crime.

That's right.

He sang it all.

He broke out the Marley.

So that's what he said.

He goes, I don't give a shit.

So

they asked his girlfriend about the,

you know, what the fuck basically is going on with this guy.

And she said, the only trouble I know him getting into is driving without a license.

So she said he just needs to stop driving and everything's fine.

Leave him alone.

Interesting.

On July 14th, 2004, Detective Darone met with Sanchez again.

Oh.

Niels's boyfriend, who identified the man he knew to be Devin from a photo ID lineup.

So they were like, okay,

I like that.

I like that.

So they said

they have DNA.

They have a lot going on here.

But there was plenty of other blood in the van, as we find out.

He's charged with first-degree manslaughter in Niels's death.

So they charge him

because they don't have a body.

So they don't know.

They don't really know anything other than her blood's in his van and she's missing.

There's a lot of blood.

So, yeah.

So they,

at that point, too, he's also charged with witness tampering after threatening a fellow inmate who had reported his conversations about assaulting Nielsa, including he had told a couple inmates that he broke her nose and threw her out of the van.

Oh.

So then he threatens this guy who told on him, basically.

So he gets extra charges for that of witness tampering.

Can't do that.

Yeah.

So now they're starting to think, is this the first woman he's killed?

It's a good question.

Then in early 2005,

a hunter is making his way through the woods behind that strip mall that he hangs out at.

He was looking for bodies, so whatever.

Yep, that's what you get, man.

Well, he's looking for shit to hunt, and he stumbles upon some stuff, and that's a skull, is what he finds.

Oh, no.

A human skull.

So he calls the cops.

The cops arrive on the scene.

They realize that...

This isn't just a skull.

There are many bodies buried here.

Oh, boy.

Many bodies.

They said that the bodies are very badly decomposed and have been mutilated in ways that suggest that the killer is trying to prevent identification.

Oh.

Fingerprint, teeth pulled out, fingers locked off, heads taken off, shit like that.

Yeah.

Any identifiable shit.

So, and they said that they're trying to dig these bodies up and find them.

The ground here is wooded and it's a marshy area and you can't get to it by car.

So it takes a long time to figure out how to get in here and get these people, basically.

So this is right near where he often parked the murder mobile, his van, and slept.

Literally, right there.

Right there.

Yeah.

Like you could carry it from the van to the woods and come back to your van.

That's what he would do.

He would sleep there, which is so fucking weird.

We find out later that he called this area his garden.

Oh, he's a good guy.

He's a landscaper, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

That's what he called it.

My garden was all these shallow graves.

Now,

they're like, holy shit, we think this guy's a serial killer.

Yeah.

Wild.

He's.

He's been growing.

Oh,

he's got crops arising.

Yeah, yeah.

Now, there hasn't been a serial killer in the area since a guy named Michael Ross, the roadside strangler, was around.

Wow.

Yeah.

Ross was a Cornell University graduate who grew up on a chicken farm in Brooklyn, Connecticut.

None of those things go together.

No.

He murdered eight girls and women between ages 14 and 25 in Connecticut and New York between 81 and 84.

This guy raped seven of his eight murder victims and was known for abducting women who were hitchhiking or walking alone.

So rather than prostitutes, he just went for vulnerable.

That's all he was after here.

Now, according to multiple psychiatrists and forensic people here, serial killers seem to have a real connection with their vehicles.

Yeah.

And it's true.

They really do.

I mean, you look over time.

I mean,

Bundy, Woodfield, all these guys, they had, I don't keep bringing them up, but even Gacy had his thing that they all.

They love a car.

Yeah.

They're very, very into their car, very attached to their car.

They love a specific car.

Yeah.

Yeah, a very specific thing.

And, I mean, it's obviously a lot of times they pick victims up or dispose of them.

So, you know, it's their thing.

So this same year, that Michael Ross is executed, by the way.

Oh,

the roadside strangler.

The roadside strangler.

There was a psychiatrist there who argued that he wasn't competent.

And his last words were to the psychiatrist.

He said, check in, mate.

You never had a chance.

You're always going to execute me.

Yep.

So 2007 comes along.

And this is the trial.

for manslaughter of Nielsa.

By the way, there's so much more crazy shit coming in this episode.

I believe it.

Fucking buckle up here.

So

they go into court.

Eight witnesses were called to testify over the course of a five-day trial.

Angel Sanchez, Niels' boyfriend, took the stand.

They really try to knock his testimony down by his multiple convictions and drug dealings and all that.

And they try to say that basically, number one, explain your relationship to Bill, so that means, or Devin, so that means that you're going to talk about smoke and crack, which is going to make you look bad.

And also, they're going to bring up all of his past discrepancies.

And weren't you in jail when this was going on?

Didn't they think you were the one who killed her at first, actually?

All of that kind of shit.

So

they had a photo of the back interior of the van, and Sanchez said that it was the same van interior he saw in 2003.

Except it depicted a back couch with a bottom cushions different in fabric and color.

So he said that, according to him, three weeks before Nielsa disappeared, that couch had matching seat cushions and now it doesn't.

Oh, that's the difference.

The defense challenged that, pointing out on cross that there was a lot of equipment in the back of the van, including a lawnmower and a weed whacker.

So, how the fuck did you see all that?

So,

in depth, and he says he was able to see the bench with matching cushions from his position in the passenger seat.

He said that we had the three of us had a real easy arrangement, me, you know, Nielsa and Bill, when we needed a ride.

And, you know, we'd give him some gas money.

He'd give us a ride.

If we want to cop drugs, he'd take us somewhere.

He wouldn't ask any questions.

And he said that all the interactions he had with Howell were actually, quote, pleasant.

Pleasant, yeah.

Pleasant.

So the defense definitely tries to smear him up good, though.

Yeah.

Yeah, they go back into his background.

The only thing they had to rule on in court how much of his background they could bring up.

Really?

They said that a 1984 conviction in Hartford was outside of the scope, too far back, but three separate convictions from 97 to 2003 could be referenced for the jury.

No problem here.

They have Niels's mother talk about her disappearance here and

saying that she

wasn't here for Christmas and Easter and Thanksgiving and

all that kind of thing here.

So

this all goes on.

They say that

they talk about whether

the family thought that Sanchez was the one who killed her in the early days.

Right.

But the mom said that she told the detective that he'd heard from others that Sanchez had cut his long hair, but she in no way suggested that this was a purposeful attempt to hide his identity.

Because they're like, didn't he cut his hair in the days?

And she's like, yeah, but I never suspected him.

And it was hot out.

What do do you want?

And it's also hot as fuck.

Yeah.

So, and sometimes if you're just feeling awful about everything, maybe you just got to cut your hair off.

Yeah, yeah.

So the detective testifies, Jerome, and he says it was

basically that the look of shock on

Howell's face when he showed him that photograph in the car as they drove back, that made him sure that he knew it was him.

He knew.

He knew right then.

This is my fucking guy.

He said he

invoked his right to remain silent and all that kind of thing, so he couldn't talk to him.

But he said any statements that he may have made were suppressed under Miranda as well.

So it doesn't matter.

Hey, everybody.

Just going to take a quick break from the show to give you a better way to shop with Thrive Market.

ThriveMarket.com.

You know it.

You know what's more stressful than being busy and everything like that?

Realizing you're out of something right before you need to do something.

Let's say you're having a gathering, a meeting, you're out of coffee.

Now what do you do?

Yeah, that's why you got got to stock up with Thrive Market's back to school sale.

Even if you're not going back to school, still a perfect time to get yourself stocked up.

Thrive Market makes it easier to shop for high-quality pantry staples, snacks, vitamins, even skincare without the errands or the ingredient label deep dives.

I don't have time to stand there reading labels and finding the one ingredient I don't want.

Yeah, you know what's great?

Aloha protein bars.

Those are great.

Got a bunch of those.

Delicious.

Simple Mills crackers, the poppy drinks, of course.

Everything's delivered fast.

I saved up to 25%.

I love their tortilla chips, by the way.

The sea salts are so good.

They're delicious.

Prefer them over anybody's.

Their filters make shopping by diet or lifestyle a breeze, too.

You can filter exactly what you want, gluten-free or whatever it is.

And their healthy swaps tool can help us upgrade with the usual buys because you can just find what's a healthier option.

And they do it.

We use Thrive Market.

I love getting that big box.

It's tremendous.

Put it right on the counter and dive right into it.

Delicious stuff.

Now's the best time to try Thrive Market.

You'll get up to 25% off select items and new members get 30% off their first order plus a free gift.

Go to thrivemarket.com slash small town murder to start saving.

The sale ends August 31st, so don't miss it.

Now back to the show.

The judge determined that the blood that they'd taken from Bill was inadmissible because Bill had not been charged with the crime also, and he didn't have legal representation.

Oh.

He hadn't been charged with the murder yet, so they say that they can't introduce this blood sample that he took from him in jail.

So

the defense tries to act like the cops were just very bumbling.

They said, you guys fucked everything up.

You're missing posters.

You showed pictures of her in a much heavier state when she's a lot thinner now.

Okay.

So you guys are total idiots.

You reported her as last seen on the Berlin Turnpike, not on New Britain Avenue, as her sister reported to the police.

And they also said that you were playing God and checking off the box at the DSS form wrongly, indicating that the purpose of the inquiry was because

Dorothy was fleeing to avoid prosecution.

So you're dumb.

You're corrupt.

Inept.

Inept.

All those things, basically.

Yeah, he said, though, the detective had answers.

He said the poster was created by his office and said that she was 140 pounds.

He knew from her sister that she was only about 90 pounds by July of 2003.

The sister said that she was only 90 pounds, so must be.

He also said that, yes, he failed to put her street name of Maria on the poster and that he did not do any forensic testing at the Almar Hotel, even though there was a possibility that blood may have been detected at the scene.

So, meaning, did you investigate Ace over there?

What about him?

You didn't check the motel room?

So they said also checking the box on the DSS form indicating his inquiry was for the purposes of preventing a suspect from fleeing prosecution.

They said

he took it to mean it was referencing Howell, not Holcomb, not Dorothy.

So basically, he's like, it was just a paperwork error.

Oh.

But the defense is trying to say that that means that he didn't do it here.

Now,

they asked him whether he lied to Dorothy when telling her the purpose of the visit to her home was in relation to a connection of lawn equipment thefts.

And he said that, yes, police lie to suspects from time to time.

It's totally allowed, totally legal.

So, yeah.

He also,

he's a homicide detective.

He's pretty good at testifying.

So that helps.

And basically,

his strategy was concede small errors in the course of...

that happen in every investigation.

Nobody's perfect, but maintain integrity and authority on the stuff that really matters.

Okay.

So that's his strategy on the stand here.

They described the process of processing Bill's van here,

and he described it as being flawless.

And there's not going to be the way they described it was very good forensically.

No OJ shit going on here.

That's good.

So, yeah, he steps down.

The fourth witness that comes up is Chris Suttuck, a detective, and he takes the jury through step-by-step search for Bill's van,

finding blood stains on the different bench frame and back portion and all that kind of thing.

That's how it's entered into evidence.

The detective comes up and said they found this, and that's how it's entered, and that's how it works.

So they said a second blood sample from an unknown potential victim that was found in the van carpeting was not entered into evidence, although it'll come up later.

They also have the forensics person describe how they fucking do all that kind of bullshit.

So

the judge

excuses the jury for the weekend, and the defense says that

they have a request.

Howell needs a warmer cell and a writing utensil.

He's chilly.

He's chilly, and he's got a lot to say.

He'd been residing in a punitive segregation due to being found in possession of a small amount of tobacco.

Oh.

Though allowed to shave from time to time, there's no hot water or mirror to look at.

He's not allowed to receive visitors, use the phone, or write and send out letters.

They said also the temperature resulted in him not being able to sleep and he can't participate in his trial if he's not sleeping.

I got to get some fucking rest.

Yeah.

He asked the judge if the court could do anything to help solve this.

as it was having an impact on his mental acuity and he's not helping me a lot.

So he said he couldn't stay awake in court because it's warm in here.

The judge said, I don't give a shit.

Don't care.

That's it.

He said,

he will get a pencil and paper to write.

That he's allowed to do, but nothing else.

That's it.

He wrote a poem about it.

Howell did.

Can I hear it?

You can.

Would you really like to?

I'd love to.

Yeah.

An innocent man, I sit in jail.

An innocent man, I can't make bail.

They take my freedom, try to make me submit.

That's the whole poem.

There's two rhymes in there.

He rhymed man with man and then jail and bail and then he just gave up.

And then he gave up and he's like, I'm out.

He's like, Will Smith.

That's it.

So

this trial is going all the way.

The prosecution gets there, sets their case out.

Yeah.

And I don't know if they're not confident or I don't know if he's not confident or nobody's confident, but he continues to deny responsibility for

the killing.

He denies that, but

he agrees to enter an Alford plea and end this thing.

Really?

Yes.

Doesn't want to go to the jury.

He said he is not admitting guilt, but he's acknowledging there's enough evidence for conviction.

He denies any responsibility, claiming the blood in his van was from a fight.

Then he tried to withdraw his guilty plea at the last minute.

And they were like, you can't do that, stupid.

You're guilty.

We already processed it all.

I've signed shit.

During sentencing, he told the judge, I offer my sincerest condolences.

I know they feel I murdered their daughter.

I didn't murder Nielsa.

I didn't do it.

Didn't do it.

The judge says, well, you're certainly going to prison like you did it.

You, sir.

They fuck off 15 years in prison.

Dang.

Because it's manslaughter.

It's not murder.

So that's not a lot at all.

That's scary.

But that's a steep fucking penalty for a guy that's just.

I mean, that'll keep him in while they figure out other shit, but that's terrifying.

The Wetersfield police chief said, I can't even imagine how many people didn't get hurt because he was convicted of manslaughter.

Right.

Then things start happening.

Once that happens, this is 2007, that's finally all over.

Then bodies start being found.

Here we go.

Three bodies are found in 2007, later identified, as we'll find out.

But on August 20th, 2007, that's when the hunter finds more, hunter finds remains at the strip mall.

They believe they may be of Diane Cusack, a 53-year-old woman from New Britain.

They also said they found blood in the van that matched the blood of other victims.

And now they want to know also the videotapes, who's on there having sex.

Right.

This Diane Cusack was 53, drug addict, had substance abuse problems, was out of contact with her family for years.

was turning tricks and wasn't reported missing for months and months and months.

So no one had any clue where she'd gone, who she'd gone with.

No one knew.

It's at this point when they start finding bodies.

William Devin, whatever the fuck you want to call him, Bill Devon.

By the way, in prison, they call him Hillbilly.

That's his name.

Nice.

Because his name's Bill.

He's got a Southern accent.

So you're Hillbilly now.

Hillbilly.

Yeah.

His cellmate here

is a guy named Mills is his last name.

Also a horrible murderer, this guy.

Well, Jonathan Mills.

We'll talk about what he did in a little bit, but just a terrible fucking man.

But this guy comes forward to the cop saying, Howell's been talking to me and saying some crazy shit.

Number one, he said if he hadn't been caught, he planned to go cross-country and kill others.

He was working on more.

He told him about, he said he has an alter ego

named the Sick Ripper.

The sick ripper.

The sick ripper.

Wow.

He's better than the Rick Sipper.

That would be a totally totally different guy.

That's a guy.

That's a guy that really

blows

a lot of guys.

Yeah,

the Rick Sipper is much different.

And he said he would pick women up in his murder mobile and kill them and rape them and bury them in the woods behind a mall.

That's what he told this guy.

He detailed methods that he used.

He said he used a hammer to kill at least two of them, strangulation for others.

He admitted to keeping one body in his van for weeks and sleeping next to it.

Why, you may ask?

Why?

Because of cold weather.

What does that mean?

Couldn't bury it, so he just had to hold it for a while.

Oh, boy.

In his van.

So I wonder why it's stuck in there.

He's keeping corpses for weeks.

Yeah.

Can't

get through the soil.

Yeah.

You got to keep it in the house.

Got to keep it till it warms up a little.

Oh, boy.

Wow.

And he slept next to it in the van.

So he drove around, did all this shit with a corpse in it for weeks.

That makes body odor?

People can't determine the difference between fucking corpse and

body odor.

Imagine what this man smells like.

If decomp, they go, that's comparable to him.

It's certainly a body odor, but it's not.

Yeah.

Jesus.

He said that he'd also raped all of his victims and that he'd disposed of them behind the mall, but he disposed of other body parts down in Virginia,

meaning all the identifiable ones.

He said that he killed seven women

and that he planned to kill more.

Yeah.

So

this is wild shit.

So, this is him telling

his cellmate, I'm the sick ripper.

Want to hear more?

I can't wait.

He said he would cut off the tips of the fingers, dismantle the bottom jaw, and dispose of the body parts in Virginia.

That's how he'd do it.

This is two horrible killers sharing a cell, and one of them's freaked out by the other.

That says a lot.

That's crazy.

So, this guy, Mills, he goes to the cops with detailed information about the burial site, including a map that he drew based on what Howell told him of where the bodies would be buried.

Oh, boy.

This turns out to be on the button fucking accurate.

Wow.

Dead on balls accurate.

Wow.

So this is crazy.

He said that he,

Mills, the roommate, said Howell told him that the case with Nielsa was circumstantial and that the state didn't have a body and he didn't want the body to show up because it would do him in.

By the way, this is why he pled because they had this guy on.

Ready.

Yeah.

He was ready to go.

He also revealed other things.

He told Mills that he hated prostitutes.

Seems like he likes them a lot.

Seems like you love them.

He said that they should have known they were going to die because of the lifestyles they led.

No.

No, that's not how it works.

So they find more bodies and they start going over cold cases, trying to figure out who these people are.

They find four sets of remains in the same little area.

They find Nielsa,

so they know where she is finally.

They find a woman named Marilyn Gonzalez,

Melanie Ruth Camelini,

and one other that we'll talk about as well here.

So this is a lot.

Let's talk about.

Yeah, so that's what they find in 2007.

They stick to this, and for years they're poking around this area.

And then in 2013,

in September, they find more bodies.

Uh-oh.

They find

Joy Valene, Joy Martinez.

She goes by Joy, a 23-year-old who was a week away from her 24th birthday.

She was going to school to be a dental assistant.

So I don't know what the hell,

how he ended up with this one.

That just doesn't make any sense.

But she must have had

some problems because she disappeared on October 10th, 2003, but wasn't reported missing until March 29th, 2004.

Okay.

So she had to have gone, you know, nobody who,

yeah, she had to go.

There's nobody that, you know, your kid comes home from dental assistant school every day and then doesn't come home for five months and you don't call the cops.

That's that isn't how that works.

September 2014, they identify the remains of Mary Jane Menard, a 40-year-old of New Britain, as well.

She worked as a substance abuse counselor, which those people are 99% of the time former abusers that sometimes have a relapse.

I'm not saying she did, I'm just saying, you know, there.

She dedicated her life to helping people.

But, you know, who knows?

She would have talked to anybody, this person, so makes her vulnerable.

She went missing in October 2003 as well.

Same as Joy Martinez.

Mary Jane Menard was 40 years old.

That's the substance abuse counselor.

April 2015, they're searching for more bodies.

They bring in a FBI cadaver-sniffing dog, which seems like they should have had that years ago.

So they identify more people here.

They identify Melanie Ruth Camelini, who's the one they were looking for.

She disappeared in January of 2003.

Marilyn Gonzalez was 26 years old, mother of two children.

She went missing in 2003 after she left her home on Hillside Avenue in Waterbury.

Her body was found behind the shopping plaza as well.

She was one of the last ones to be discovered.

In all, seven women found in this, in the garden back there.

Jesus.

This is insane.

So now they go, okay, this is definitely one guy doing this.

It's obvious.

It can't be the work of more than one person here.

So they search his cell, by the way.

They think he might have some shit in his cell, Howell.

Yeah.

So, yeah, they thought also they wanted to get him paranoid and kind of shake his, rattle his cage a little bit type of deal.

So during a search of his cell, they found a notebook containing references to the website darkvomit.com,

which I don't know if it still exists, but it was a site that sells memorabilia belonging to serial killers.

Oh.

Now, there's a bunch of those, as we know.

Also, the notebook included handwritten notes referencing items like, quote, a watercolor painting done by Gary Gilmore and a John Dillinger death mask.

God dang it.

That were

listed for sale.

They also seized an old cell phone bill with a date in 2003, circled, and then handwritten next to it, this shows the day after I killed.

That's not good.

No.

That is not good.

So, yeah, they have all sorts of details on his crimes from his roommate there.

And they also, in his cell, they get a newspaper article about the death penalty in Florida, a notebook with handwritten entries that reference dark vomit.

We said that, and a cell phone bill with those words on it.

So

the article, the newspaper article talked about the death penalty in Florida.

That prompted authorities to look into whether Howell was behind an unsolved murder down there of a 21-year-old girl named April Marie Stone, who went missing on January 14th, 1991,

after she was seen walking along the state highway in South Apopka, Florida.

Her body was found two days later beside a dirt road.

She'd been stabbed to death and wrapped in a blanket.

She'd been living about 15, that was when he was living about 15 miles away from there in this trailer in Castleberry with Mandy and their infant son.

A few months after they found her, Howell was charged with soliciting a prostitute in the next town over.

He had approached the undercover officer in a blue Ford pickup truck and offered her $15 for oral sex.

He entered a plea of guilty and avoided jail time.

But it wasn't until 2015, after he was charged with all these murders and now they're looking into all these murders that they said, holy shit, could he have killed her down in Florida?

But they could find no evidence linking him to it.

They just know that he was interested in the death penalty in Florida for a fucking reason, and he probably did something.

Got Got to, yeah.

You don't just start on a spree like that in your mid-30s without doing this before, especially if you've been with that many prostitutes.

And why is he so curious?

Yep.

So he got so rattled by the searches of his cell and all this type of shit, he tried to kill himself by swallowing 27 pills.

What pills?

Don't know.

27, probably whatever anti-psych meds he had on him or whatever the fuck.

And he's a little chunky guy, too.

He's like 5'9, 220.

A little chunkster.

Yeah, tried to take a bunch of pills.

Also in 2015, the Supreme Court of Connecticut abolished their death penalty.

Really?

So this is before he's charged with six more murders.

He's going to.

Oh, shit.

Yeah.

Now, DNA analysis is what they're looking at here.

But they said he'd removed fingertips, extracted teeth, and dismembered the bodies.

This guy knew what the fuck he was doing and trying to cover his tracks.

It was pretty clear there.

So they used advanced DNA testing methods, anthropological analysis of skeletal remains, and cross-referenced that with missing person databases.

They're very good at figuring out who people are nowadays.

What the hell happened?

That's the crazy part.

God did this.

Why?

That's what I mean.

We don't.

Sometime,

along the time when his mom got sick, his brain went fucking kooky.

And I don't know if he, I don't know what it is.

I'm not a psychiatrist, but there's something really bad in there.

It's not just booze.

Is it watching mom die?

I don't know.

Having no control over that, maybe.

That'll make you want to have some control over something.

But it can't be being arrested for driving when you shouldn't be.

That's not it.

That's crazy.

That's how that's.

You get Al Capone for tax evasion.

You get a serial killer with expired tags.

That's just the way it is.

But I mean, that's not the reason that that wasn't his catalyst.

He can say it all he wants.

There's no fucking way that's the catalyst.

No, it's bullshit.

It's complete bullshit.

Now,

now that they really get into the DNA and DNA technology has gone a long way in over 10 years since the last time they went through the van, now they say they have DNA samples from six of the seven women they found

in his van.

Wow.

Six DNA samples.

Yeah.

So he's going to be charged with three counts each of felony, capital felony, capital felony murder, felony murder, and murder.

Three counts each.

That is a lot.

DNA links, body identifications, and cellmate confessions with the roadmap and everything help a lot.

He's held on a $10 million bond.

Is that right?

He lives in a van.

That's a lot.

Let's be honest.

Yeah, it could be a $10,000 bond.

He's not going to be able to do that.

It could be $10.

Yeah.

The police chief said, Let's remember each of these victims and their families.

Each victim was loved and cherished.

They were people from our communities and in no way deserved the violence that ended their lives.

Enter Ann K.

Howard.

Okay.

Okay.

Ann Howard.

She's a lawyer and a writer, and she was fascinated by this case and started a blog about it called Serial Murders in Connecticut.

Okay.

She started researching cold cases and unsolved murders, but this was the one that got her attention.

So she decided to try to contact Howell.

Really?

Yeah.

She said, fuck it.

Why not?

And she said that also, knowing that he was so interested in true crime stuff, she might be able to get him to talk because she's interested in this

whole world.

Yeah.

She said that

he said, or I'm sorry, she said this.

This is Ann Howard, the author slash lawyer.

I was researching online about some cold case murders not far from where I lived.

And every time I researched, this story kept coming up about bodies being found behind a strip mall in New Britain, Connecticut.

on my news feed.

And I couldn't help but wonder, who is this monster who's yet to be arrested for the murders of of these people being found behind a suburban strip mall on a busy roadway not far from where I live.

So she wrote to Howell and told him she was interested in writing a book about her, about him.

In her first letter, she said that she'd talked to the daughter of his ex-girlfriend, Dorothy.

By the way, Dorothy had died from killing herself the year after he was arrested for this.

Oh, she was so embarrassed.

She's fucking embarrassed.

Yeah.

So she says, when I first contacted William Devin Howell in July 2015, he was serving the 15-year sentence for the murder of Nielsa Arismendi.

Howell had yet to be charged with the murders of six other victims whose bodies would be found in the same wooded area.

Nonetheless, the tone of his first letter to me indicated that he knew that the remaining charges were about to slam down upon him with the force of a sledgehammer.

Two months earlier, Howell's image had been smeared across local and national news channels when Chief State's attorney Kevin Kane named him as the suspect in the New Britain serial killings.

The announcement was a long time coming, they said.

And Howell told me two years earlier he refused to speak with police officers about the accusations without a lawyer present.

His refusal to speak resulted in him being stripped of his industry job in prison.

Oh, he wouldn't be interviewed, so they kicked him off his job,

which was a high-paying job, and it pissed him off.

Yeah, they said, this is a big fucking deal.

You know, he paid an hour, he got paid a dollar an hour.

And most of the jobs get 75 cents an hour.

Or sorry, 75 cents a day.

Sorry.

Most of the other jobs.

He got $1 an hour.

So he was living high on the hog and off-commissary.

I mean, fucking ramen as far as the eye can see.

Guys, making 60 bucks a week.

Yep.

She said, from the start, Howell's letters revealed an unbelievably lonesome and depressed man.

Good.

He should be.

Who gives a fuck?

Yeah, fuck him.

I spoke at length on the phone with a former acquaintance of Howells from Virginia, and she described an adolescent Howell as being starved for love.

I could not have said it better.

Howell was not just looking for love from me in his letters.

He was begging for it.

Being isolated from the opposite sex for several years gave him that craving, a somewhat sexual component.

Oh, yeah.

He loves pussy, and he's locked away from it.

Uh-oh.

And now some lady's writing him letters.

He's like, hey, bring that pussy on over here.

She said, for all I knew,

for all he knew, I was a blue-haired elderly woman.

Nevertheless, he wrote me these words in his first letter.

This may sound creepy, but I'd like a hug.

Whoa.

Can I finger you while I hug you?

Not, well, nothing creepy and not trying to cop a feel, but I haven't had a hug in almost 10 years, and I'd just like a simple hug if you don't mind.

A hug from you may be the only hug I get for the rest of my life.

Like I said, nothing creepy, just a simple hug.

I promised I'll be on my best behavior.

I'll beat off to the memory of it later.

Oh, I will definitely beat off to the smell you leave on my fucking, on my orange jumpsuit, but that's fine.

So fellow inmates at this point call him Hillbilly.

Other people call him Wild Bill.

He used to be called just Billy by his friends on the outside, but now he's going by Bill.

So you can call me Bill, he tells her.

So then

he wrote more regarding his request for a hug.

He said, this is 8-29, 2015, so August of 2015.

But

I would like to meet with you, and there's a legal basis for your visit.

And if you truly do want to get a feel for who I am, that's the best way to do it.

And the hug can be optional.

Smiley face.

I see where that may have come across a little creepy in my first letter, but it wasn't meant to be.

It's just that it's been so long, years, since I've had something as innocent as a friendly hug.

And I feel like I've had nothing to lose by asking.

In fact, it could be my last chance to ever have a hug again for the rest of my life.

So I had to ask, and I apologize if I creeped you out in any way.

Apologies.

Yeah.

And then he asked for $30 and she sent it to him.

I'm not kidding.

Yeah.

For a commissary.

So he just spills his fucking guts to this woman.

He got the hug.

He absolutely spills his fucking guts to her.

He tells her everything.

He said that he called the burial site his garden and the victims should have known what was going to happen to them.

He then said this, and this is the name of her book, which is interesting.

They were talking about the murders, and he said, quote, every killer has a garden.

Really?

Yeah, they all have somewhere they put the bodies.

That's just his garden.

Everybody's got a garden.

Every killer has a garden, which I found really fucking interesting.

Some have several, I guess.

Yeah, but most of them have places they

many ones.

Yeah, they have many.

He called his victims seeds in his garden.

He's planting them.

Like a new woman would grow.

You know what I mean?

That's fucking wild.

He said, I know I'm accused of monstrous crimes, and because of those charges, I must be some evil-spirited monster that thinks of nothing but evil, malicious acts or intent.

But that's just not the case.

I wasn't a con artist or a scammer or a thief.

If I could help someone, I would.

I didn't and don't plot or scheme against anyone.

I was raised with good morals and values.

And in spite of my charges, I try to live by those.

Dude is a fucking narcissist, man.

But he said he would target vulnerable women, women who are alone, who might be struggling with addiction or other issues,

women who might not be immediately missed or they might not be reported missing right away.

Drugs are the common threat.

Drugs.

He said I'd approach him with my van, offer rides once they were inside.

He said he would sexually assault them all throughout the night.

Because you remember, he's...

Throughout the night.

Once isn't enough for this guy.

And then he said he would,

Jesus Christ,

this is what he would do before he would kill them.

This is fucked up.

This is fucked up.

Don't worry, it's not sexual.

It's almost creepier, though.

He said, I'd go through the Mickey D's drive-through with a half-naked, tied-up victim in the back, and I'd tell them if they make a sound, it would be their last.

And none of them did.

He would get them a meal.

Oh.

He'd give them a last meal.

This is what he did.

He'd go to McDonald's and then they'd eat together and then he'd murder them.

With a belly full of chicken nugs.

Yep, with a belly full of Big Mac.

That's how he did it.

Oh my God.

So that's what he did.

He said that he was basically parading his victims in public.

You know, that was the.

Wow.

That to him showed how much control he was in, the fact that there's a person you're talking to and you got a tied-up victim and nobody's going to see shit.

Nobody's going to see that.

That That gave him a rush.

Yeah.

Yep.

His mutilation tactics just showed that he had an understanding of how police identify victims because he's a huge true crime buff.

Huge.

Loves it.

Yeah.

Favorite TV show, Forensic Files.

SamZies.

There you go.

We're all fans.

I just use the knowledge I get for this show rather than to murder women.

I just lay in hotel beds and go, oh my God.

Yeah, holy shit.

It's the only time I watch it is from a hotel because that's what's because it's on loop.

They play it all night long.

That channel just put it in the background.

Show it to me.

Go to sleep to it.

The bummers.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, that's that's that sucks, but that drives me nuts.

But it's great.

Fuck yeah.

So he said that he gave up on, he was trying to prevent identification originally.

Yeah.

You know, fingertips and cutting stuff off and doing that.

But then he said, fuck it.

No, he said he gave up on those.

He said initially.

He said, I realized that if they found her, it would probably be,

probably would have been moot anyway.

She was the only one I did that to.

Oh.

Is what he said.

So his later omission, though, about removing the Camelini woman's jaw shows that his attempts at concealment were more extensive.

So at first he said, oh, it was just one person.

I don't know.

And then he started letting more out.

So in January of 2003, he found Melanie Ruth Camelini, who's 29 years old.

She went missing January 1st, 2003.

She'd been living in Waterbury and was last seen in the area with two men.

She was known for having a substance abuse problem and would regularly disappear for long periods of time, which delayed the investigation into her disappearance.

Which is the other thing.

You know, that's a big deal.

When they choose victims, choosing a victim that

will not be immediately missed is a big deal.

Sure.

If you kidnap some eight-year-old kid, that kid, if he's not home in 10 minutes, the cops are going to be looking everywhere.

These women, they can disappear and they'll go, well, wait another three, four days and call us back.

There's several days until it's useless to us.

So, yeah, her body was discovered in 2007 behind the shopping plaza.

It wasn't identified till 2015.

Wow, eight years.

Eight years.

When Ann Howard asked about Melanie Camelini specifically, he said this.

Okay.

He said he picked her up in Waterbury in February 2003.

The last time anybody saw her was January 1st, meaning her family, but she was just out on the street for a month and then he got her.

Wow.

He drove her to Torrington and killed her

there in his van.

Once she was in the van, he said he duct taped her hands together,

then drove her to Torrington and parked where he raped and killed her.

How did he kill her?

Well, he's going to describe it.

It's disturbing.

Quote, yeah, I first tried to kill Camelini by hitting her in the head with a hammer.

It's just weird to call your murder victim by their last name like that.

Like

they're a guy on your football team or something.

It's just weird.

She didn't see it coming.

That's another thing Mills, meaning his cellmate, got wrong when he talked to the cops.

He said, I tried to strangle Camelini, but she wouldn't die, so I beat her in the head with a hammer.

That's backwards.

I hit her with the hammer first, pretty hard, and it didn't even knock her out.

So he had to strangle her.

She said, please don't kill me.

Don't hit me with the hammer again.

I didn't have the heart to hit her again, if that makes sense.

So I strangled her.

Good lord.

Please don't hit me with the hammer again.

You know what?

You're right.

That's mean.

Strangle, strangle, strangle.

Okay.

He said he was living in his van at the time, and he slept beside her body for two whole weeks.

What?

Two weeks.

Now, granted, it's so cold the ground is too frozen to bury her, and I don't see

this van having a real crank and heating system in it, probably.

So that's probably why he was able to do that.

But he basically made it like his co-pilot and nicknamed the corpse baby.

Oh, boy.

Yeah.

He said, I slept beside her because I have never, I had no choice.

And later on, he said, I never called her my baby.

Not my baby.

But he just called her.

He said that before.

Yeah.

During this, he continued to landscape.

So he's going to people's homes and doing all this shit while the body is literally wrapped up in the van that is fucking wild um june 18th 2003 janice roberts was 44 years old janice roberts was a trans person originally named danny lee wisennott wistnot nant wistnant

um and was 44 years old and working as a prostitute as well.

Janice was seen on June 18th, 2003 when she was observed observed getting into a blue van outside the stop-in-shop.

Sound familiar?

Yeah.

She was reported missing on June 24th,

and

this was absolute just a rage killing.

And we find out

later that he was fooled.

That's what pissed him off on this one.

He said, yes.

He said he raped everybody else except...

Janice Roberts because he felt mad because he was tricked.

That's what he felt.

Real weird.

Fucking, did you see that?

You saw the new season of the rehearsal, right?

A lot of it, not all of it.

Okay.

The one pilot.

Some of it fucked me up.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I hate fucking air travel, but it's fucking hilarious.

Anyway, it's very well done.

He's incredible, yeah.

He's talking to that one pilot, and the pilot's like, yeah, I can't find any ladies.

You know, he got kicked off of every site there is.

Yeah, yeah.

And he goes, it's because I was saying this and that and this.

And he goes, oh, he's a scumbag.

He said, these trans women, he goes, you know how many times I've been tricked?

I'm like,

How many times have you been tricked?

How many times did you not?

Are you kidding me, bro?

Yeah, how many times you've been attracted to a trans person?

That's what happened, you fuck.

That's not, yes.

And then later on, you felt weird about it.

That's what I'm talking about.

You dummy.

That's it.

So, yeah, he said that he killed her in a rage when he discovered that she was transgender.

So, January 9th, 2003, Diane Cusack, 53,

police last had contact with her on July 9th during a landlord-tenant dispute.

Wow.

I assume she's the tenant.

She struggled with substance abuse and been out of contact with her family, like we said, so she wasn't reported missing forever.

Nielsa, he explains what happened with Nielsa, our original woman.

He said that they agreed that she would have sex with him for money.

And

first of all, this is a big change from across the parking lot where this was all over with.

She said, you're taking too long.

I'm done.

Well, she was having oral sex with him.

You're taking too long.

I'm done.

Probably because he's already jizzed eight times today.

This guy cannot stop coming.

He said he pressed her head back down and said, you're done when I say you're done.

She said no and forced herself out of his grip.

Oh, no.

She stared him in the eyes and said, That's all I'm doing for you, Devin.

This is done.

Donezo.

Right?

So

he sat there and didn't know what this was in the back of the van.

And he said in his brain,

his interior monster was saying, rape the whore, rape the whore.

That's what he was thinking.

So, yeah.

She had offered to give him a blowjob for $30.

He had talked her down to $20.

He said she refused to finish the job.

So he got angry and tried to rape her.

He said, do you know,

do what I say, or I'm going to hit you with this wrench?

She kept on fighting and fucking didn't just ignored him.

She wasn't going down.

So he said, Shut up, and she wouldn't shut up.

So he said he whacked her on the side of the head just above the ear.

He said it didn't knock her out, but it sure as hell got her to stop fighting so he could tie her to the back bench of his van.

She slowly came to her senses as he drove back to the parking lot behind the stop and shop where he raped her.

Then he refastened the ropes and zip ties and secured her to the back bench of the van, making sure her mouth was covered in duct tape, drove to the back of an empty business along Farmington Avenue and raped her three more times.

Oh, my word.

Fucking unreal.

Then the morning came and he was getting kind of sleepy, you know.

Yeah.

So he rested beneath her, kind of had a nap.

At dawn, he drove her down to the parking lot of the Motel 6, removed the duct tape from her mouth, ordered her to perform oral sex again

because he wanted to rape her again.

So he did multiple more times.

What?

I don't understand.

Then, all satisfied and depleted of any semen anywhere in his body,

he finally strangled her in the back lot of the Motel 6 later that morning.

What a terrible way to go.

Holy shit.

He said she wanted to ride into Hartford.

I grabbed her, raped her all through the night and into the day.

I killed her and threw her down a hill.

Wow.

He dug a shallow grave and he wanted to dig deeper, but he said the water was so high and the earth was swampy.

So, you know, he said he went just below about a foot and a half and there was mud and

all that kind of thing.

So he dug just low enough for the body to fit and lowered it in.

He removed the black plastic trash bags and duct tape that he bound them in, bound her in just like all the other girls, covered the grave with a loose layer of soil, leaves, and sticks,

stripped her of her love, her clothing and personal effects.

He already had done in the back of the van.

He's going to dispose of those in random garbage cans located at gas stations and public parks,

ones that get emptied a lot.

He duct taped the body into a fetal position, wrapped it in three large plastic trash bags, two at the top, one at the bottom, covered it with a tarp in the back of of the van, mowed a few lawns later that afternoon,

then drove to the edge of the strip mall's back parking lot about 5 p.m., opened the side door of the van, and threw the body over the side of a sloping embankment.

He watched it tumble down into the ravine and said, great.

It landed in a pile of hedge trimmings and barrels, and he said, perfect.

I'll come back the next day.

And that's when he...

He did it.

He said, though, he had trouble falling asleep that night because Nielsa was the only person he actually knew before killing them.

He knew her.

They were friends.

So he didn't plan to rape and strangle her as he did with the others.

He just, you know, he didn't plan it.

So he said he had, hadn't taken the usual precaution of changing the license tag on his van.

Oh, that's what he usually does before he knows he's going to rape and kill somebody.

He said, at the same time, too,

He said, this other guy knows me and knows my van.

Sure.

And he knows that I was going there.

So he was like, fuck.

He was all, he couldn't sleep.

So early the next morning, he returned to the strip mall, drove around back, making sure the door of the subway sandwich shop was closed, make sure there's nobody taking their smoke break out there or anything.

So he said everybody was gone.

So he went to the guardrail that lined the steep wooded embankment and tucked a small shovel into the brush, circled the van into the parking lot of the McDonald's, located just down the road there from the woods.

He quickly left the vehicle, walked across the narrow cut-through that was inaccessible to cars.

Oh, God.

Went to the ravine.

So he didn't know would somebody see him entering the parking lot or what's going on here, but he said the ravine where the body was was visible to other areas.

So he said he rushed up the hill at record speed, retrieved the spade, and nearly nervously carried her back to the ravine.

He dragged the body about 100 yards into the woods.

It was a little more concealed than the the bottom of the ravine, but there was still the risk of being discovered by a hunter, as we find out.

So people used to do it all the time.

And also, there's a Piper

cub planes fly above it also.

She doesn't want to be seen by the air.

So he did it.

He said he looked over and he said, man, she's stronger than she looked.

And

that's that.

He dumped her in the hole, put shit on there.

He said she fought back like a warrior.

Yeah.

She was tough.

He said he couldn't understand why she fought so hard.

No.

He said it wasn't like her life was worth it.

Wow.

So what the fuck, basically.

She mentioned that she had children, three or four, but he thought, what kind of mother leaves her babies for the needle?

Dude, it's in your business.

After he was done, he ordered a beef and cheddar from Arby's and some fries and brought them over to his girlfriend's house.

Wow.

He ate beef and cheddar after that.

Wow.

Then they watched an episode of Forensic Files.

Yeah.

Wow.

A scientist was talking about how they identified the charred remains of a woman trapped inside her car, and he started thinking about, oh, man, did I put enough soil on her?

Is she going to be found?

Wow.

October 10th.

Beef and cheddar.

After a beef and cheddar, that's when you do your most regret.

Well, you're regretful of everything.

That's when it really sets in.

All life decisions get really brought into focus with a beef and cheddar.

That'll do it to you right away.

Especially like three, four of them.

Oh, God.

They were like two for three bucks back in the day.

When they're five for five, you are going to suffer.

Did they do five for five on those or was it just regular roast beef?

They did both.

It was either or.

Mixed and match, babe.

Cheddar for free.

What are we talking about here?

No.

October 10th, 2003 was Joy Martinez, 24 years old, is when she disappeared.

Mary Jane Menard disappeared in

October of 2003, also at 40 years old.

So

this is what Ann Howard got out of this.

She said, this man had a sexual addiction, and he was trying at an early age to numb himself from very real psychological pain he was going through.

And his addiction served as a source of escape.

It evolved into a sadistic sexual addiction that gave him an outlet for his rage.

She said, he's telling me everything I want to know, and sometimes, frankly, it's almost too much for me to hear.

I guess so.

A little much for me to hear.

Another,

he's got some petty shit here.

He wants to sue somebody.

Who?

Trudy Hackler, who is his girlfriend that killed herself, sister.

Oh, she's wrongful debt for the suicide?

No.

Bill saved up $2,242 working at the prison and sent the money to

Dorothy's sister with the agreement that she would put the funds into a savings account for him to use upon his release, because at that point he was only in for 15 years.

Instead, he said she used the money for her own use and went on a cruise.

Oh.

They said it does appear, the author Ann Howard said it appears that Trudy did take most, if not all the money and spent it.

Still, the small claims judge ruled in her favor, having no desire to side with a serial killer, basically.

So I don't really care what the facts of the case are.

You're a serial killer.

You don't need $2,200.

I don't care how right you are.

If there's a class action lawsuit and you sign in, we're going to divvy up your share to everybody else.

Just other people.

We'll even it out to people.

So

anyway, he said he liked heavy metal and all that kind of shit.

This was his concert thing when he was talking to her.

So

this is fucking weird.

They talk about,

she says, you miss Virginia, don't you?

And he said, yeah, yeah, I do.

Ever wish you had never came to Connecticut in the first place?

And he said, hell yeah, all the time.

You would have just killed anywhere else.

Yeah, that's...

So she said, so tell me about your life in High Max, meaning that area of the jail.

He said that a protective custody unit was housed six other inmates who were assigned that unit due to high-profile crimes.

His neighbor, who he referred to as a kid, jumped off a bridge holding his baby, but claimed it was an accident.

The baby died and he survived.

He recently rejected a plea deal for a 50-year sentence, which was life.

The jury gave him 65 years.

They said there's

former cops in the unit.

He says it's real boring.

90 minutes every morning.

You can watch TV in the day room and play cards, and you get another 90 minutes before dinner.

And you could step outside into a small cage affixed to a concrete slab.

Also, he said, if the weather was right, he said, be careful.

She said to him, be careful what you say to those men because, you know, you've already blown your whole shit with all this snitching.

He said, oh, yeah, I'm careful.

Yeah, right.

Man, he says that people have already determined that I'm guilty.

It's not just what you say, it's what you don't say.

You ask for a lawyer and they say you're guilty because you've asked.

You answer one of their questions and they twist it around against you.

Maybe.

Wow.

They said, do you think it's worth it then to go through the stress of a long trial?

He said, I don't know.

My attorneys say it'll take two or three years.

I just don't know.

And he said he is relieved about there's no death penalty, but he says he'd like to die.

He goes, I just wish I could close my eyes and never wake up.

He said that would be better than having to sit in prison and rot to death someday of a disease like cancer.

By the way, he's a diabetic, too, in prison.

Oh, really?

Yeah, he's going to have a much worse life.

That was that.

Now, he says he was good to women as well.

Oh, boy.

He says that Dory's behavior and the fighting with Dorothy was stemming from her untreated bipolar disorder and that she would provoke him to lose his temper.

Huh?

And

he said, you know, they said, well, the author said, is there ever a valid reason to hit a woman upside or nog it, as you said?

Right, right.

And, you know, he said no.

And she said

she didn't have a black eye.

That was a lie in the police report and all that kind of thing.

He describes himself as a gentleman, saying, quote, have you ever noticed that there are no ex-girlfriends coming out of the woodwork claiming any abuse or violence toward them?

I dated three women in Connecticut alone, and no one has ever come forward to say, he used to abuse me, or I always thought he was strange or weird, or could be capable of the things they're saying about me.

I was always a happy person and made others happy that were around me.

Hell, I was even invited to my first ex's wedding, and I attended.

And her husband got a little jealous because she got a little too drunk at the reception and spent a lot of time talking to me and another guy friend she invited to the wedding as well.

Sounds like a prize.

He and I attended her wedding together, so neither of us would feel awkward.

We all smoked weed, and the guy I went to her wedding with was

her and mine when I lived in Torrington's weed dealer.

Jesus Christ.

Yeah.

Now, Mandy, according to

Mandy here, basically, she feared that if she didn't leave Bill soon, she feared he would kill her.

Yeah.

Mandy said, quote, Devin is crazy.

Yes.

Based on all this shit, based on when he got hurt.

He said, that hurt her.

That hurt him.

He said.

It really hurt me when I read the statement she made to the cops about me.

Yeah.

I don't know.

He'll tell you, man.

He said that, you know, I got drunk in pick fights or arguments with her, that thing from before.

He said, but I wasn't drunk that constant, I wasn't a drunk that constantly beat her like she portrayed to the cops.

I slapped her one time, and that's because she kicked me in the nads.

It's that whole speech.

And then he said, you know, the thing with her ex-boyfriend, what would you do?

You know, I had to fight him in a 7-Eleven parking lot.

So

the one thing he said, she asked him directly after a while, why did you kill them, Bill?

Great question.

Yeah.

Because that's what we all want to know.

Say it.

And he said it this way, quote, and I believe him because this is probably the grossest thing, the least advantageous to you thing you could say.

So I believe him.

He said, quote, wow, it wasn't about killing Ann.

It was about raping.

Oh, my God.

That's a, I believe that 100%.

The prosecutors don't know this, but I didn't just rape three of them.

They based that on what Mills had told them.

How would he know I just raped three?

The bodies were nothing but bones when they dug them up.

I raped all of them except Danny Wistnot.

That was why he was mad.

Yeah.

He did it, of course.

So when they pressed him, when pressed about the motivations,

he said,

it was never about the killing and I just killed them to conceal the evidence.

I knew that once I raped them, they'd go to the cops and I'd end up back in jail.

So I had to keep that from happening.

I definitely didn't enjoy killing them.

As I choked them out, I was thinking, just hurry up and die.

So you can go rape more.

September of 2017,

William Devin Howell decides he doesn't really want to go to trial for six more murders.

No.

He'd rather not.

Please.

He said he's prepared to plead guilty to all charges.

Wow.

He continued his phone correspondence with

the author, Ann Howard, and she then shared some of the phone calls with the media.

On one, Howell told her, quote, I want to, this is once he wanted to be.

Yeah.

You know, this is one he released just before his sentencing.

Him saying to her, I want to first apologize to my victims' families for the grief and pain I have caused them.

I hear the pain in their sobs at every court appearance, and I'm truly sorry that I am the cause of this pain.

The author, Howard, said he's dreading the sentencing hearing on November 17th because he doesn't want to hear what the victims' families are obviously going to say because he feels so awful about it.

He's mostly remorseful for what he put the families through.

He's very ashamed.

That's what it is.

He's ashamed, not remorseful,

in my opinion.

I don't know everything.

He's ashamed he got caught.

he's ashamed uh of a lot of different things i think but i don't think that

well i don't think he's really ashamed i don't think he's ashamed but i think he is a little ashamed because his family was a decent family that had pride in not being a piece of shit the way they all worked so hard and all that they had pride in that so He, I think, feels he knows his mom would fucking kick him off.

Oh, she'd be so destroyed over this.

That's what I mean.

It's that kind of thing.

He knows that his parents would not approve of this, and he wasn't brought up this way.

So, you know, I think that's what he feels like, though, more than anything.

Has there ever been a

serial killer that says it was about the rapes?

It was about the rape, and nobody's ever said that, right?

I mean, never heard that before.

That that's what it was with Bundy and

with Gacy.

But Bundy enjoyed

Bundy enjoyed it.

He liked to kill, too.

Yeah.

He liked the kill.

He liked after the kill, he liked to play with the bodies.

This guy, once his body body was dead,

he just wanted to get rid of it.

BTK,

loved the killing.

He loved it.

Loved the kill.

The kill was in the name.

This guy's just, I just liked Ray.

He made the moment last longer, BTK.

Really, this guy was like, get this out of the way so I can, I just want to get rid of Reaky.

Wow.

Howell also said, I pleaded guilty to spare the victims' families further pain and torment that would have been brought by a lengthy trial.

My guilty plea also saves the taxpayers of the state nearly a million dollars in anticipated trial costs and then $20 million in appeals.

Yeah.

And I mean,

I want to know why so much with Koberger, but this guy just gives it to us.

And I don't know that I, I don't want that why.

I mean, I want to know, but

I want Jesus.

I guess it fucking explains it, though.

That's what I want is what explains it.

Koberger is

Koberger's a huge why.

Yeah.

He didn't even rape.

No why.

What are you doing?

That's what I mean.

He just wanted to be a serial killer, I think.

So

he said that the author said he wanted it to be done.

He wanted to fess up and just have this nightmare resolved.

He told her, quote, my case contains an ounce of truth bolstered by a pound of lies.

But at the end of the day, I feel that ounce of truth alone would have been enough to convict me.

He's like,

Yeah, there's blood of six of seven dead people in your van

that you all buried in the same place with a woman that they proved and you pleaded guilty to fucking burying there in your garden yeah anybody near her that's yours

yeah probably you bought it so he does plead guilty to the murders of diane cusack joy martinez melany ruth camelini marilyn gonzalez mary jane menard um

and what i don't remember what danny lee was not other what the name janice janice janice um and acknowledged burying them all in his secret garden as he called it

december of 2017 is sentencing.

All but ruins the Bruce Springsteen song.

God damn.

Fuck, man.

Sentencing victim impact.

This is Mary Jane Menard's daughter.

Said mom was the rock of the family.

Said words cannot express all the pain and anguish so many of us have had to endure since their murders.

With every ounce of blood that runs through my veins, I want to hate you.

Saying you stripped away the youth from us and made me and my brother orphans.

Yeah.

Oh, she also said she tried to kill herself twice since the time her mother went missing.

He speaks.

He apologizes to the victims.

He says that his acts were monstrous, cowardly, and selfish.

He said, I know everyone wants to know why I committed these crimes.

I don't have an answer.

I don't know myself.

He says he has diabetes, and that's going to take a toll.

He said, I'm a diabetic and my numbers are through the roof, so I know that my future awaits organ failure and amputations.

I'll probably die a slow, miserable death in prison.

I hope that gives you all some comfort.

So he said,

there you go.

So the judge says, you, sir,

may fuck off six life sentences consecutive.

Yeah.

That means, by the way, in Connecticut, a life sentence is defined as 60 years.

Oh, shit.

So that is 360 years in prison.

And before he'd be eligible for parole, he has to serve 150 years mandatory.

I don't think he's going to get out.

His current date of out is 2377.

Yeah.

2377.

That's his release date.

There won't be an Earth in 2377.

We'll have all incinerated.

It's too hot outside.

We'll all be firing nuclear weapons at each other.

It's going to be crazy by that.

He did TV interviews, by the way.

And they asked him why.

And he said, I'm still not real excited to talk to y'all, and I'd rather not be doing it.

But I did this as a favor to Ann, the author, and the lawyer there.

Yeah.

He said that he was a happy kid.

He goes, does all of that.

He says that

the drinking and his time in jail in Virginia, it instilled a lot of bitterness in me.

I was angry.

And then he also said something.

He said it was something that I had fantasized about for a few years.

The fantasy wasn't about killing someone.

I just killed them to try to cover up my crime.

The fantasy was just about

What the fuck, man?

That's all he wants.

He said it repeatedly.

He said,

I just decided to act on my impulses.

I've been out drinking a little bit, and I was pissed off at my girlfriend at the time and just decided tonight I'm going to cross the line.

He said, it's not like it was a beast that was driving me to commit these crimes.

They may make me even more sinister, but it was something that I liked to do.

Wow.

So I wasn't, I didn't need to.

I liked it.

Don't read the lyrics to Bruce Springsteen's song.

Dollars to donuts.

He says Secret Garden and listens to this song twistedly.

Well,

so fucked up.

Stone Temple Pilot's Secret Garden was this song?

That was Wicked Garden, not Secret Garden.

Never mind.

But I don't know if there's another song that's Secret Garden that sounds that sinister.

I don't even know.

It's so fucked up, the lyrics.

Jesus Christ.

Yeah.

Are you looking up lyrics on that?

No, I just was thinking about them.

What are you doing?

I know that he says

there's dirty things in that song.

They're dirty.

Are you talking about I'm on fire?

No.

What are we talking about?

What song?

You don't know Secret Gorstein?

I don't.

So what are we talking about?

James, that's the song.

Okay, we're almost done.

I don't care about Bruce.

All right.

Don't care about Bruce Springsteen that much.

Really don't.

He's fine and all.

I just not.

I'm not like a.

We're too young to be that into Bruce Springsteen.

Like, our dads would like Bruce Springsteen.

You can love Bruce so much.

Are you serious?

You don't like Bruce Springsteen that much?

No, it's fine.

He's fine, but it's old man music.

It's like music for our dads.

Yeah, it listened to me.

It's like music for my dad.

That's why I mean because I listened to it a lot in the garage.

Yeah, just, I don't know.

Growing up as a kid, it was like, oh, yeah, that's old people music.

But it's fine.

But it was like, but you didn't.

That's fine.

You don't know how many songs with your dad that you like think about your dad?

With my dad?

When?

Any song, any time you ever spent.

Never mind.

No.

Never mind.

I just lost it.

You know what my family's like.

What are you talking about?

You think we sat around fucking making song memories together?

No.

Just doing something in a song, you hear it and you go, oh, yeah, yeah.

I did this with my grandfather that time that was a nice time no i don't have a lot of that for my childhood

i really don't

i have a lot of oh yeah i remember waiting for a long time and nobody showed up to pick me up at that when that song was playing sitting there with the with the bus stop and the in the secret garden playing on this last speaker maybe that's why i don't know it because i blocked it i just blocked it from my memory of

Secret Garden.

I thought you were talking about something totally different.

What are you talking about?

It's a great fucking song, but now I'd never want to hear it again based on this.

Oh man, I think that's where he's going with this shit.

It's got to be just about

raping.

It's gross.

What a terrible man.

He then said, I chose to do what I did.

I chose not to care.

Yeah.

December 2017, there's some rewards that are expected to be doled out.

There's going to be three $50,000 rewards for providing information that led to the conviction of him.

Oh.

Claimants must submit an application

here.

They said, I would think there'd be several claims made.

If more than one person puts in a claim, then it would be up to the judge to make the determination who gets the reward.

You know, who really wants it?

Jonathan Mills.

Yeah.

Well,

the guy in prison.

Yeah.

Fuck yeah.

He, by the way, is in prison for killing two women and two children in the year 2000.

I think that gets him no money, yes?

That's what are we talking about here?

But he did draw a detailed map and all that kind of shit.

Mills killed Catherine Kitty Kleinkoff, her nephew Kyle, who was four years old, and a niece who was six.

Maybe we let him get a McDonald's meal and tell him to go fuck himself.

Yeah, put him in the back of a van here.

You got to eat it back there.

You got to eat it back there while you're in a tarp.

And he also killed a woman a few days before.

But his maps led to the remaining victim.

They're thinking they might give it to him.

Yeah.

They said that state law limits rewards to $50,000.

A total of $150,000 is on the table in reward money.

money, but you can only get $50,000 each.

The guy that was missing his wife, the first one, he went for 15 years for her.

Fucking goddamn it.

Nielsa.

Yeah.

Nielsa.

That guy, the drug

he should get.

They're talking about him, too.

Yeah.

He then said, by the way, he claimed to feel remorse later on in psychological interviews.

He said, I would give my life to bring theirs back if I could.

I wish he could.

But then he got more evasive.

He said, then they were asking specifics about like Mary Jane Menard, and he became uncomfortable and ended the interview.

That's too many.

So December 2018, he's in prison getting called Hillbilly.

Several family members of,

because you notice he got six life sentences now.

They never charged him for Joy Valene Martinez's death.

Really?

Apparently.

And I guess her sisters, I'm not sure.

Her sisters were saying that they're going to, I plan to be at every one of Howell's court appearances, and that's a promise.

oh yeah because they did charge her then okay they hadn't charged him for so long uh then he gets in trouble for assaulting another inmate robert king jr who is the leader of a human trafficking ring let's say we let them fight to the death right whoever fucking who gets hurt whoever wins we shoot him in the head it's perfect don't care so they said that uh yeah he broke this guy's nose and orbital socket during an assault this was in protective custody he did this he got to this guy and beat him with his fist?

They're both in protective custody.

So they get released together.

So now the New Britain Police Department now maintains dedicated resources for cold case investigations.

And based on all of this, Anne K.

Howard's book, His Garden, Conversations with a Serial Killer is the name of it.

Jesus Christ.

By the way, she made a decision to close her law office in 2018 to focus on writing true crime books, of which I think she has two at this point.

I saw saw two audiobooks on Audible there.

She written extensively about unsolved crimes along Route 8, where since the 80s, four murders have gone unsolved.

One murder that they think Hillbilly here is involved in, she does, is Jessica Muskis is her name.

M-U-S-K-U-S.

You can look this up.

Very similar circumstances.

to the other girls in the area.

She went out one day in 2004 to visit a friend.

The next morning, she wasn't there.

And that was that.

Now, her daughter had said she had a fight with a man about a month before she disappeared.

She believes that her daughter had pulled a knife to protect herself, and she was afraid that the man would try to retaliate, but she didn't remember his name.

Oh.

So, yeah, the daughter, her daughter said she looks a lot, this daughter said, yeah, she looks a lot like her mom.

Hopefully, she won't have the hard life.

So, Jessica was found in 2006.

They said she unfortunately was disposed of in a very vacant, hard-to-locate area.

It took two years for the police to even find the remains.

Her remains were skeletal.

She was also a victim, a resident of Waterbury, like one of the New Britain victims.

She was also a drug user.

So, yeah, she just went out, never came back one day.

And

it could be him.

Who knows?

She had a real hard life.

She was taken away from her parents.

Her parents were fucking hardcore drug abusers.

And

she grew up in a bad, bad, bad.

She's disappeared.

They never found her body or anything.

No, they found her body

in 2006.

Oh, in a vacant lot, they said, out there.

Oh, my God.

So, um, yeah, it's, it's really rough.

Now, today, Howell's serving his time at the Cheshire Correctional Institution in Connecticut.

Oh.

Um, this place is such a shithole that a lot of the incarcerants there have been on hunger strikes there as of 2025.

Nice.

Saying they have excessive lockdowns, low-quality food, and poor health care.

Wow, sure.

So,

yeah.

So they said, we're going to keep our hunger strike up.

We have no intention of stopping.

Well, this guy cannot eat forever.

And I really want to give

two fucking shits.

So there you go, everybody.

That is New Britain, Connecticut.

Oh, my God.

And a very bad man has killed at least seven women.

At least.

Horrifying.

At least.

Probably that.

20, right?

There's more.

Yeah.

He wouldn't have had that article about Florida unless he had something going on in Florida.

There's more, and there's no reason for him to talk about the ones that there's no motivation.

So, if you like this episode, if you like the show in general, get on whatever app you're listening on.

Give us five stars.

It really, really helps to review those episodes, helps drive us up the charts, which gets more listeners

and helps us a lot.

So, if you like us, that's the way you can help out.

Also, head over to shutupandgivemeurder.com.

You will find all the merchandise you could possibly want there.

In addition to tickets to live shows, we just released, and there's a few left in San Diego.

I'm talking like 10 when I say a few, not 100.

We got D.C., we got Philly, and we got Seattle.

I think Philly is like 95% sold out.

So if you want to go to Philly, get the hell in there, D.C.

too.

So do that up and see us.

Shut up and givememurder.com.

Follow on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Small Town Pod on Facebook.

Get yourself Patreon.

Do yourself a favor.

Patreon.com, P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com slash crime in in sports, just like our other podcast that you should be listening to.

Now that, anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get a giant catalog of back episodes, hundreds of episodes you've never heard immediately upon subscription, new ones every other week.

This week for crime and sports, which you'll have, of course, we're going to talk about Jeff Vollum and his crazy end to his life.

Then for small town murder, it's poop cruise time.

Here we go.

We're going poop cruising, everybody.

And we're going to dip into Titan Submersible a little bit too, because it's all the water.

Fuck it.

Let's get into that.

And if you subscribe from now on, you also get all of the shows we make, Crime and Sports, Your Stupid Opinions, both small town murders, ad-free with your Patreon subscription.

We couldn't give you any more if we tried.

How else am I going to do it?

What else can we give you?

So get in there and do that.

Patreon.com slash crimeinsports.

And when you do that, then you're going to get this.

Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most wonderful people in the world who, for them, it's never about rape.

Jimmy, hit me with them right fucking now.

Executive proofs this week are Gary Howard, Dr.

Gary, Dr.

Elizabeth Minton.

Congrats, Doc.

Amanda Berry.

Thank you.

Thank you.

That was very, very kind of you.

Thank you.

That was really cool of you.

I appreciate you.

I don't have to tell much more.

You know what I mean?

Deadpan, whore-faced bitch, not Amanda Berry, but whoever wrote that.

Lisa Gentile, gently, I don't know.

Happy hour.

Checking in in Boardman, Oregon.

He is probably a board man up there.

He travels so much for work, and

he checks in every other week or every week or so with

a couple bucks and then reminds us where he's at.

It's great.

Maria Thompson, Jimmy P.

Felter Snatch.

I'll bet you that's not a real person.

How darry Lane?

You don't know anything about who snatches, I'm feeling.

Koozie Carrion Mark Such.

Happy birthday.

Happy birthday.

May a beer appear

that you may sheath with that koozie.

Other producers this week.

Peyton Meadows, Janice Hill, Melissa Black, Brad Thompson, Shelby Seale, Katie Daravan, Augie Beamborn, Beambaum, Beamborn, Beam Bamborn.

All right, Adam.

Sounds like an alien now.

This is Beanbourne.

He's from Planet

Clack Attack.

Mary Albadrez, Gunter Drywall.

Find them if you're in your area.

Jennifer with 1N.

Nicholas Nicholas Roberts, Savannah with no last name.

Juan J.

Melendez Jr., Dylan with no last name.

Thomas Gonzalez, Tomas, Gonzalez, Casey Hankerson, Veronica Zukova, Hope DeVoid.

What?

Yep, DeVoid.

Devoid.

DeVoid.

Jennifer Schouse.

Mama Kel Vincent

Trollia.

Daniel Mathis.

Jacqueline Fenton.

Laura with no last name.

Lindsay Frappier.

Jordan Heck.

Lori

Kessler, Jack Cunningham, Jessica Hansel,

Mike Gretel, Rachel Hammond,

Jeremiah McMillan, Sheila Hubbard, Allen with no last name, Todd with no last name, Marcus with no last name, Toe Mama, 2789, Juck, Juck, no, that's Chuck Jaster, Jaster, Elizabeth, nope, that's Alexis, Gallagher, Emily with no last name, Claire Cameron, Jasmine Jones, Jacqueline Hazel,

Vanessa Aprilano, Apriolano, Apri Liano, CG, CG

Starner, CHE, maybe, Ben Cook, Boner,

Yogurt, disgusting.

How dare you?

Julie Phillips, Belle Kuhn, Eric Milo, Aaron Shipley, Barbara with no last name, Leanne Nickel, maybe it's Nickel.

Christy with no last name, Dylan with no last name, Brittany

Chestnut Robinson, Kevin with no last name, Julie Brooks, Dylan Usher, Chandler Lowe, Jacqueline Mitchell, Danny Lee, Tedder, Andrew King, Ash with no last name.

Shelly Pfeiffer, Tyler with no last name.

Ashley Vickery, Chuck Nelson, Ernest Rower,

Roher,

Kate with no last name, Tori Willis, Tamasina.

Ursich, that's nice.

Poopy Pants, Pat, you wish.

How about you, Wish?

Tony Wilson, Kaylee

Ranicius, Ranicius,

Rynicus.

It sounds like something that the guy from Willy Wonka would say.

John Reagan, Stephanie with no last name, Katie O'Brien, Timothy Blonsky, George.

Nope, that's Gregory.

Reda Penning.

Reda Penning.

Jess.

Reda Penning.

Heefey.

Hepi?

All right.

Kristen with no last name.

Derry Bunch.

Krista Croyle.

I gave it the old college try.

Let's move it on.

What is Nahemia?

Is that

Nahemia Guerrero?

I got that one.

Was that Spanish?

I got that on my skin one time.

It was right.

Oh, did you?

They got a cream?

Or is it a pill?

You know, I had to rub a cream on it.

Oh, you got to let it peel.

Ashley Hogan, Rhett McWright, James Perkins, JS, the letters J and S, Hippie Kate, Julie O'Leary, Helena, Brooks, Lance, Coyle, Mike Hansen, Jenny Koonwald, Sean Heavey, Mac with no last name, Blue Loon, Anthony C., Katie Bell, Stephanie H, Rebecca Simons, Joshua Young, Madeline Leader, Kelly Witterburn Cox, Stephanie LeMay, Deborah Morelis, Carrie Camp, Maddie with no last name, Kendra Lang, Hippie Chick, Abby Gallantine, Aiden D'Agostino, Susan with no last name, Katie Cook, Rachel Shaw, Rebecca Trimble, Glenn Webster, Ina Zudi Zudalina,

Leandra Davis, Katherine Binns, Stephanie Mafia.

That's two Fs.

That's not Mafia.

Eric Lundberg.

Charlie with no last name.

Kevin Hudson.

Hutson.

What is this?

Crowis?

Krails?

Borden?

Nick and Sarah Ludlu.

Chelsea Marshall.

Robin Weaver.

Joe Crosby.

Oh, that is Cosby.

Joe.

Jesus.

Breonna Fitzgerald.

Megan Andrews.

Corey with no last name.

Russell Belcher.

Also not a good one.

Danny Belusi.

Carrie Wheeler.

Mandy Burley, or Burl.

That might be Milton's kid.

Becks with no last name.

What's about his cock?

It's huge.

Stefan Lipinski.

Steven, perhaps.

Max, fancy monster.

Monsters up.

Plural.

Jesus.

Nancy Gere, spelled like Richard.

Tammy Grand Pre,

Grand Prix, Toby Larone, Larone, Jackie Babcock, Aaron Louise.

What is this?

Jevensky?

Oh, it's Javensky.

That's what that is.

Okay.

Yeah.

It's got to be

pronounced with the Espanol, right?

Javensky or Jevensky?

Anyway, Melissa Thompson, Anna Arceo, Fred Dameron,

Apo Collops?

I don't fucking know.

Patrice Littleton, White Chocolate, Captain Morgan, probably two people that don't exist.

Joseph Guerra, Phil Candell, Laura Mafey, John Callis, Callis.

That's a weird way of spelling Callis.

Mr.

Blakey.

Okay, probably.

Okay.

Taylor Brandon, Ryan Brown, John and Jimmy.

Joyce Reggie with no E.

Sam with no last name.

S and B.

SB.

Margaret Leidle.

Lytle.

Veronica Bailey.

Patrick Galloway.

Charles Blasner.

Norma.

Macias.

Ellen Forte.

Elisa with no last name.

Daddy Warbucks.

Nice.

You spent some of it on us.

Thank you.

Haley E.

Justin with no last name.

Melissa Kendrick, Matt Heyer, Melissa with no last name.

Mary McNeely, Nakia Stewart, Big Bar, Brittany, Brittany?

What is that?

The T and the Y are next to each other.

It's got to be Brittany Farley.

John, it's not Britant,

right?

John Michael, Kelly with no last name.

Jack B, Jersey Daylor, Linay.

Oh, fuck this.

Beach.

Oh, that's a weird last name.

Beachowish.

Bachowish.

Bachowish.

Lena.

There's no fucking way I'm getting that right.

Shannon Grieg.

Yeah, Grieg.

Greg, maybe.

Frog Priest.

Tina Beam, 61.

Paige with no last name.

Emo Dad.

Jay Bode.

Vicki McGill.

Corey Jenkins.

Andrew Cunningham.

Amy Dye.

Don't.

Christie with no last name.

Becca Newberry.

J.D.

Parma.

Parma Sean.

Emily Tilton.

Teresa 9.

Joe Parker.

C.

Break.

Steph Carter.

Spider Bell C, Don Granenko,

Jackie McCabe,

Virginie, Virginia Borgie, Jerry,

Virginia.

Is that Virginia?

Get on over here.

Come here, Virginia.

Virginia, dinner going to be ready soon.

Malapse warm.

Laura Back and Jones.

Will with no last name.

Whitney Weisgerber.

Emily Ossman.

Turtle Angel 94.

Samantha Orbecker or Baker.

Cheryl with no last name.

Patricia Hensley, Tyler Winslet, Rowan with no last name, Flower Girl JC, Kristen Ray, Curry Badger, Emily Struthers,

Deborah Blandin, Sarah Barchman, Carissa Van Zant.

I hope that's little Stevie's daughter or something.

Jamie Lindy.

E Street band money.

Anybody.

Jeff Gascon, James Hall, Jay Stoddard, Brian Rockwell, Chimetals, Chimetals, Tanya Radcliffe, Hunter Peterson, Sierra Slatter, Slater, Slatter.

Who would do do that?

Azula with no last name.

Anna Staff.

Oh, boy, Cheryl Haman.

Cheryl Mann.

Riley Josephine.

Amanda Rowe.

Tabby O'Connell.

Joe Case.

Joshua Heron.

Catherine Bursch.

Trisha Waltz.

Jesse Sargent.

Samantha von Goden.

Von Gunden.

Michael Weebosh.

Weebush.

We do.

Kelsey Peterson.

Ryan Brown, Amanda P.

Angela Macaulay, Jiffy with no last name.

Deja or Daisy.

Oh, it's Daisy, Paulino, Natasha Murray, Holler and Hollery,

Holler and Holly.

God damn it.

At the very end, are you fucking Holler and Holly?

And all of our patrons, you're the best.

Thank you.

Thank you so much, everybody.

You glorious, glorious, wonderful people out there.

We appreciate the fuck out of what you do for us.

You want to follow us on social media?

Shut up and givememurder.com has drop-down menus.

Take you anywhere you want to go.

Keep coming back and seeing us.

And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.

Bye.

You didn't start your company to manage payroll, file taxes, or chase invoices.

But someone has to do it, and that someone doesn't have to be you.

Escalon Services handles your finance, HR, and accounting needs under one roof so you get back to what you love, building your business.

Head to Escalon.services and use the code SanFran for a special listener-only deal.

Escalon.

Because founders deserve peace of mind too.

You compare flights, hotels, even coffee shops.

So why not travel insurance?

Insure My Trip lets you compare top plans side by side.

No bias, no pressure.

Lost bags, flight delays, delays, medical drama abroad?

Covered.

It's powered by smart tech, real reviews, and expert help when you need it.

Think of it like a travel savvy friend who actually reads the fine print.

With 20 plus years of experience and an A plus BPB rating, we've got your back.

Risk less, travel more.

Start comparing at insuremytrip.com.

That's insuremytrip.com.