Murder By Moonlight - Chappaqua, New York

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This week, in Chappaqua, New York, a brutal murder sends an extremely upscale area into a panic at the idea of a shadowy killer stalking its residents.

But the real story makes people start to look inside their own homes for monsters.

Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder.

Yay!

Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy.

Yay indeed.

My name is James Petra Gallo.

I'm here with my co-host.

I am Jimmy Wistman.

Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another absolutely wild edition of Small Town Murder.

We have some weird stuff for you today.

Just

a bad person, a real, from like top to bottom.

And the type, too, this is kind of what Small Town Murder runs on, is the mask is...

completely not what's behind the mask.

Oh, my.

Presenting something completely different to the outside world of respectability and then inside, a disaster.

That guy.

We'll get to that and much more.

Definitely head over to shutupandgivemeurder.com.

First of all, all the merchandise you could possibly want, everything from skateboards to coffee cups.

And get your tickets, especially for live shows.

Starting back up in the fall again, I think a lot of them are sold out, like Madison, Grand Rapids, but San Diego, or not San Diego, that's sold out, but Irvine.

We have Irvine and then Philly and D.C.

in December.

And then Seattle also has some tickets left.

So the rest of them are sold out.

You guys are awesome.

Thank you.

Get your tickets now.

ShutupandGiveMemurder.com.

Also listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, which is hilarious, and you don't have to like sports.

Trust me.

We're going to do a whole multi-parter on the I-5 killer.

So you don't need to.

He played football for about five minutes.

So you don't have to have anything to do with sports for that.

And also listen to your stupid opinions.

Yeah.

We get to hear people's stupid opinions about anything and everything under the sun.

And we read reviews and laugh at people like crazy.

And if you still need more content, we have more for you.

Patreon.com/slash crime in sports sports is where you get all that stuff.

Anybody, $5 a month or above, you are going to get so much.

So why?

You're going to get hundreds and hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff.

You've never heard.

You'll get it immediately upon subscription.

Go ahead and binge on that.

And then you get new ones every other week.

This week, what we're going to do here for crime and sports, we are going to talk about the liver king.

Oh, gross.

The guy, the documentary and some background on him.

And this guy, I thought he was dead.

No.

I figured, how could anyone do this and live?

He's eaten like raw testicles out of the woods.

Like, there's no way this guy's alive.

And somehow

he's still alive.

And then for small-town murder, we're going to do some alien stuff.

Here we go.

Let's do it.

We're going to do some alien stuff, some Roswell stuff.

We're going to just go down a rabbit hole of crazy and talk all about it.

And, you know, just do some alien stuff.

Lunatic stuff.

I've been reading some alien stuff lately, and I'm interested.

And so let's talk about it.

It's going to be a lot of fun.

And Roswell's a small town, so there you go.

It's weird.

That's that.

And so do that.

And patreon.com/slash crimeinsports, sports, just like that podcast that's really hilarious, I hear.

We wish you would listen to.

Absolutely.

And you also get a shout out at the end of the show for Jimmy will mispronounce your name all sorts of different ways.

So do that.

That said, disclaimer time, this is a comedy podcast.

We're comedians.

That's what we do here.

The murders are absolutely real.

And in such detail, the research is meticulous.

We're doing everything we can, finding every detail.

Nothing is made up for comedic effect or anything ridiculous like that.

So you you might go, well, how is that funny?

Well, there's a lot of funny things about, you know, trying to get away with murder.

It's ridiculous.

That's pretty ridiculous.

So what we do, though, is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families.

Why, James?

Because we're assholes.

What?

But we're not scumbags.

There you go.

See how that goes there?

And if that sounds good to you, oh man, do we have a crazy story for you.

If you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together, I don't know why you're here, but if you are, I think it might not be what you think.

So check it out.

No complaining later.

That's the way this works.

Either way, I think it's time for everybody to sit back.

Let's all clear the lungs.

Arms to the sky.

And let's all shout.

Shut up

and give me murder.

Let's do this.

Okay.

Let's go on a trip, shall we?

We are going down the road from where we sit at the moment here.

We're going to Chappaqua, New York.

Where is that?

Westchester.

Down by Terrytown and all that.

Yes.

You know, right outside the city there.

Hello.

All that good stuff here.

Chappaqua, New York, southeastern New York, down by the city.

It's about 30 minutes to New York City.

This is prime commuter territory here.

Yeah.

And it's expensive.

Very wealthy.

Yeah.

All this whole beautiful area.

Gorgeous.

Gorgeous.

Holy shit.

Very expensive.

Five hours and 20 minutes to Brighton, New York, which is all the way up by Buffalo there.

Our last New York episode, episode 557, Suburban Axe Murder Mystery.

Yeah, Daddy.

We probably didn't do it.

We don't think that guy did it.

And he just died in jail.

That was a wild episode.

You You got to check that out.

This is in Westchester County, which is known for being pretty wealthy for the most part.

Area code 914.

No motto for this town.

They got it.

They're doing fine.

It should just be Chappaqua, the unpronounceable.

We don't need it.

If you're not from the East Coast, you won't know how to say this at all.

History here.

It started out.

People started coming here.

Quakers were the first kind of

settlers, whatever you want to call it here.

In the 1730s, a group group of Quakers moved north from Purchase, New York to settle in what is now Chappaqua.

They built their homes on Quaker Road, which is surprising.

They renamed it later on Quaker Street.

You got to mix it up a little bit.

Because of that song by

Bruce Springsteen, right?

Quaker Road, I believe that's what, yeah.

It's not Thunder Road, it's Quaker Road.

Sounds better.

It sounds close to Baker Street.

Isn't that the one?

No, Baker Street is not that.

I can't remember, but it's not.

Is that not Bruce?

No, it's not Bruce at all.

That's a snap.

Oh, yeah, I know the song.

I can hear the song now.

That's like two songs.

Baker Street's a lot.

A lot of music.

Radio guys like to use it as their instrument.

Sack shit.

Many of the early homes and businesses were destroyed in the great 1904 Chappaqua tornado.

Oh.

Which we don't get that a lot around here, too.

Tornadoes.

So that's a word.

Not the fire.

No, you expected a fire.

Everyone out there, but of course it burned down.

No.

Well, I'm sure the the tornado then caused fires.

That's probably what happened.

And that would have burned to the ground.

Right?

It blew all the ashes out of your fireplace right into your fucking house.

That's a timeline of how that goes, I believe.

Reviews of this town here.

Let's see.

Here's five stars.

Great place to live.

Very family-oriented for exclamation points.

If you can afford it.

Everything should be.

Everything should be abutted with, if you can afford it.

If you got to love it.

Everything.

Yeah, shit.

Great schools, schools, great town, great people.

We love it here.

Exclamation point.

Yeah, they have a lot of money.

They're so rich people.

Everybody's real nice.

That's the thing here, too.

Where do we get to the crime rate?

Like, it's non-existent in this town.

They're just so rich.

They have no reason to commit crime.

It's weird as shit.

Then here we go.

This one.

I don't even know how to, how to, where this came from.

I went to Greeley, which is the high school horse, Greeley.

Multiple pedophilia scandals.

What?

Within a six-year period in the mid-2000s the school district did as much as they could to limit press attention and defend the institution it is everything bad you've ever heard about westchester rolled into one it's corrupt they want your kids they want them bad okay they'll take them in they can't buy them from you because you have a lot of money but

wow that is um interesting and that is i mean i don't know if that's alumni wanting to keep a lid on it not have to screw up the school's name i don't even know if it's real or if it's real we have no idea what's going on there.

I mean, that's one, hands off.

I don't know.

Alleged, alleged, alleged.

That's a very serious allegation.

I have no idea.

People here, 3,062.

Okay.

So not that big.

And it's inside Newcastle, which is another town.

This is like a hamlet inside of a...

thing.

So median age here is about 44 and a half, which is older than the national average.

But

when you get money.

When you start making your money and you want to move somewhere nice.

When it's supposed to make money on your money.

I would look, this is a crazy stat for a town with 3,000 people.

This is a stat you'd get in a town with like, you know, 86 people or something.

54%, over 54.2% women.

Wow.

45.8% male.

Divorce A's.

Divorce A's or widows.

Oh, yeah.

I don't know what's going on here.

Or somebody.

figured out how an untraceable poison and they're passing it around to their friends the recipe at fucking uh you know community meetings or something

how nice it is to live here yeah

It's about 56% married, over the average.

All the wealthy suburban stability stats are here, basically.

Lower divorce rate,

3.8% single with children.

Wow.

The average is 10%.

And a lot of our towns are 25%.

This is 4%.

People stick together.

They're too rich to get a divorce.

And we'll find out there's a couple that fits that to a T.

It's expensive to leave her, yeah.

That lives three doors down from the people we're going to talk about.

Yeah, we'll talk about that.

Now, racing this down, 84.5%

white, 13.5% Asian,

and 2.2% two or more races, which I assume are Asian and white mixed together.

That's right.

Yeah, 0.0%

everybody else.

64.9%

religious, which in the Northeast is actually

above average in the Northeast, but that's also, maybe these people are so successful they think, well, it must be Providence.

Something's smiling upon me.

It has to be Providence.

There's nothing else that could explain this.

Obviously, we're going to have Catholic as the most popular religion.

47% of the people here are Catholic as it kind of rolls out.

5.2% Jewish.

Holy shit, we got that.

We get to sing finally.

Have fun.

Nagela.

Hava.

Nagela.

Hava.

Nagela.

I don't know the words.

Hey.

There we go.

We got that.

They're doing great up here.

everybody's doing great up here it's like it's crazy um unemployment's about average here i don't know how you could be unemployed and afford to live here yeah and you'd have to have a shitload of money in the bank median household income here 196 141 almost 200 grand a year is the median household income that is cooking you are doing well i mean that includes people who work at the mcdonald's yeah and everybody some ceo somewhere that's wild uh let's see here cost of living 100 being regular average par.

Here it is,

it is 157 is the cost of living, which is obviously high.

And housing is going to be the highest one.

Yeah.

100 is par.

Oh, boy.

Housing

$348,000.

Median home cost, $1,114,000.

Wow.

Holy shit.

Million-dollar homes, every single one of them.

They're all million dollar homes.

Yeah, it's everything.

That's your average home.

You get a three-bedroom, two-bath.

I mean, there's not a lot of like little tiny raised ranches around this area either, but still, it's a lot.

So if we've convinced you and you have been saving your pennies,

you're going to crack your piggy bank.

We have for you the Chappaqua, New York Real Estate Report.

The average two-bedroom rental here goes for $3,100.

That is more than, it's almost three times the national average.

It's like $1,250 nationally.

So $3,100.

I'm just pissing on these people.

Wow.

You can get a place in the city for $3,100.

Not a two-bedroom probably, but something.

House number one here.

Let's see.

It is a real nice house.

Three-bedroom, three-bath, 2,084 square feet.

Yeah.

Nice house.

Got a nice yard.

Sure.

Most of us.

Show it to you there.

Yeah.

Nice little garden out there.

Nice house.

2,084 feet.

$650,000.

Holy.

Which, for where it is.

Not bad.

That's not terrible for where it is, obviously.

It's not cheap.

Yearly taxes.

It's going to be a lot.

Next up is kind of a, it doesn't look like anything spectacular.

Kind of looks like a raised ranchie type house with some brick on it here.

Four-bedroom, three-bath, $2,541 square feet.

$899,000.

So we're moving up.

And then finally,

this ridiculous shit here.

Five-bedroom, nine-baths.

Look at this thing.

What do you need that for?

It looks like it looks like the White House.

Yeah, it's crazy.

It looks like a resort.

It's like where the gemstones go on vacation.

It's fucking

silly.

Five beds, nine baths, T-bowl for each and every vehicle and some neighbors.

Your Super Bowl party, they can have their own.

Wow, 7,055 square feet.

Oh, Lord.

Big giant house.

Big.

It's white.

It's different levels.

There's pillars, a big pool, and a yard.

It's unbelievable.

It's unbelievable.

And it better be because the price is unbelievable.

$10,995,000.

$11 million in houses.

That's a lot.

That's ridiculous.

How can you?

What the fuck?

That's a lot.

What must the annual taxes of that be?

I can't fathom how these rich people do that.

If you're some CEO in New York and the city, you can live there.

You don't care.

It's a nice place.

The schools are the best.

You can have affairs and know your wife isn't going to be stabbed while she walks around with the kids while you're off.

She won't even know because you can do it in the house.

In that house, yeah, you could.

You could have a whole other family over there.

So we'd be like, I thought I heard a child screaming the other day, but it couldn't have been.

No, no, no.

It was the dog bar.

Don't worry about the East Wing.

Just leave it alone.

We're redoing it right now.

Things to do here.

Palooza in the Park.

Okay.

All right.

This year is the 11-year anniversary.

This takes place in July, July 6th.

here at Brush Park.

And they say this event marks the 11th edition of Palooza in the Park and is going to be, is going back outdoors.

Yeah, when you don't want the 4th of July to end.

Well, how do you have Palooza in the Park indoors?

It's not in the park at that point, unless it's

some depressing event center.

You can go in your house and do your Palooza in the park.

Yeah.

Although I don't know what the parks are like down there.

They might be spectacular.

It promises live performances.

I like how it promises this.

We promise.

Look, we ain't guaranteeing nothing.

We'll promise.

You know, enough of nothing.

This is what they're saying.

Live performances, food, and exotic drinks.

Yeah.

It's described as a, quote, can't miss in-person event.

Oh, oh, boy.

Home run every time.

Home run every time.

Well, I have some of the bands here that played.

This is the, I don't have this year's.

They haven't put out this year's yet, but I have 2024s or 2023s, one of the two here.

Let's find out the level of talent that we got at a place

at Palooza in the park.

I wasn't called Park of Palooza.

That's what they should call it.

They should.

It'd be better.

They have a first-class band is the one named.

And it is a bunch of old guys,

a couple of young guys, and then two ladies in the middle.

There's eight of them all together.

Six dudes, three old and fat and bald, three younger and less fat and less bald, and then two ladies wearing like prom dresses.

I don't know what's going on.

They're making $500 for this, and they're going to split it between eight people.

Oh, Jesus.

They do top 40 cover songs, it says.

Yeah, from one year.

Who the fuck?

Not this year.

I hope not, anyway.

FDR Drive Band.

Oh.

FDR Drive.

Oh.

Like at the Franklin Delano Roosevelt Museum.

That's what that's called, FDR Drive.

Okay.

Do they live there?

Maybe they're from the Poughkeepsie area, the Hyde Park area.

We don't know.

They do top 40 in dance.

Okay, and dance.

And there's eight of them as well.

Great.

Three women, five men.

So far, we've got $1,000 spent and 16 people taking cut.

Both bands, none of these people look like they belong together also.

They're not the same age.

They're not dressed the same.

They're all basically doing this for free, so who gives a shit?

Who cares?

Without a Net is a Grateful Dead tribute band.

Without a Net.

What do I understand?

Performing Grateful Dead songs, performing a low-key,

calm song without a net.

Wow.

The station agents, they do classic rock and pop.

And then I'm going to let you guess what kind of band this is, Tramps Like Us.

Is this a born-to-run cover?

It is a Bruce Springsteen tribute band.

Absolutely, my friend.

Tramps like us.

Tramps like us.

We're just doing Born to Run All Night.

And then I see Bikini Palooza in the park.

That's better.

Which I don't know what that's all about, but Skang and Kraft will be there.

I don't know either.

I don't know either.

They sound like villains from the Ninja Channel.

A couple of young,

I don't know, a couple of young black guys with tattoos all over their face.

Skang and Kraft.

Skang and Kraft.

Bikini in the definitely sounds like a He-Man villain.

I have the power.

Skang, you're mine.

Crime rate in this town, property crime, just under one-third of the national average.

Okay.

So, not that much happening, which seemed like this would be a good place to go steal if you're from a different area.

You know what I mean?

I want your shit.

Violent crime, basically non-existent.

It's less than one-quarter of the national average.

It doesn't happen.

It just doesn't happen.

Yeah, you're just so happy.

You just give people tons of money and they don't murder.

It's weird.

There's gang and craft coming and you just wait till next year.

That's all you can do, my friend.

So that said, let's talk about some murder.

Here we go.

Considering how safe and wonderful this is.

Okay.

Let's go back in time a bit.

Not too much, but a bit.

November 18th, 2006.

Yeah.

So, okay.

Cell phones with cameras.

This is a decent time.

Blackberry era.

Not a great picture.

This is a Blackberry era.

This is the iPhones.

We're still.

Not a great picture on your phone.

Not a great picture, but you could take one.

You could could take a video.

It looks like a picture.

Yeah, this is, you know, MySpace, but no Instagram, Facebook, any of that shit, but MySpace.

So it's, you know, it's happening.

Internet, high-speed, you know, streaming porn.

Yeah.

Look at all this going on right now.

It's all happening.

Newporn.com exists.

Almost modern day.

YouTube has been out for a year.

Is that right?

I think 2005 was YouTube.

So YouTube's been out for a year.

It's almost modern day, pretty much.

So we're going to start out at Northern Westchester Hospital.

Yeah.

It is almost midnight

on this night.

And

Northern Westchester Hospital, it's not like it's in the middle of the South Bronx or something.

I don't think they have constant stab wounds coming in and people on gurneys bleeding out or anything like that.

It's probably not that.

It's probably people that had like an accident at home or

some 72-year-old retired CEO had a heart attack while he was gardening or some shit.

Tomato guillotine or something.

Oh, that'll get you every time.

They finger.

It'll fuck you right up.

It's their cigar.

Yeah.

They have to chop the end of their finger off as they

cut their cubic.

As they go to cut their $42 cigar.

So just past midnight or close to midnight, a Mitsubishi Montero.

Remember those?

Oh, yeah.

A little SUV Mitsubishi.

They feed it with the Nissan Extera.

Yeah, a little Mitsubishi.

It's an ugly fucker.

It's stupid.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

But it had real top heavy.

It had some street cred, though, because rappers would mention a Montero once in a while.

And they were expensive.

Any SUV.

In the 90s, any SUV was expensive, and it was considered a, you know, you can bring all your friends in it and it was all, you know, whatever.

So

my hotbox, this thing.

Oh, great to hotbox.

You don't want too much space.

That's the thing.

It's all going to get wasted.

So this Montero pulls up to the ER,

nearly crashing through the doors of the fucking ER.

Dead serious.

Slamming, I'm talking like crooked in the door, like in the fucking doorway, basically.

Like, we're here, motherfucker.

It's just an emergency.

Emergency, yeah.

Not in the, because it's all the emergency rooms have the little like valet looking area, like at a hotel.

Right.

That's where people go and they park and it's like four feet from the front door.

So normally they don't pull up actually into the door pretty much because it's kind of pointless.

It's a waste.

So it's actually blocking the entrance.

Like you couldn't get in if you were trying to get in.

We're next.

We're next.

It's that.

It's that.

If an ambulance pulls up, they're going to have to wait

for the double parking here.

So

it turned into a frantic scene immediately.

I mean, these are, it's probably a little sleepy at this point in time.

It's late late shift.

All of a sudden,

fucking people getting out.

Right.

Guy yelling.

And there's a man getting out, middle-aged guy gets out, yelling, screaming.

He's got blood all over his face.

Oh, Jesus.

He's got a polo shirt on.

It's covered in blood.

He's all bloody.

He's losing his goddamn mind here.

A nurse named Shelly Greisinger said that this man resisted getting onto a stretcher and was given anti-anxiety medication intravenously, intravenously.

So they,

he was freaking out so bad, they just like in like a movie they like held him down and stuck something in his arm till he chilled the fuck out give me 30 cities of something that'll calm him stat like what you do to a tiger yeah

you know if you four malls anyone else blow dart from the fucking from the reception desk it's got roy and it's shaking him

siegfried did you did you bring the dart this is the time that is funny that they

that guy got fucked up and nobody hit that thing with a dart no that's what i mean that would be like being allergic to peanuts.

You have that pen on you at all.

If I have this tiger,

it's in clutched in my hand is the dart that puts it down.

As soon as it fucking nudges me wrong, I'm sticking it in the back.

And if we're worried about it dying, we at least put it the fuck to sleep.

My God.

Whatever sedative we need.

Holy shit.

And it's funny that they...

I mean, it fucked that guy up beyond recognition.

The lesson here is quit fucking with tigers.

Leave them alone.

They're not meant to do show shit.

Those eat meat.

They're wild fucking animals.

You're made of meat.

Leave tigers alone.

They're beautiful, majestic animals.

And you're like, what if we catch one and make it walk around in Vegas when it's

make it disappear and reappear?

I'm sure that'll piss it off.

That'll piss it off good, right?

How do we agitate this thing the most effective?

You know how we check an anthill after they've worked so hard?

That probably pisses them off a lot.

A little bit.

What can the equivalent be with this giant fucking man-eating beast?

Dangerous beast.

So this guy is giving the same thing.

He's given a shot.

Like I said, I didn't say, it says intravenously, so I assume it didn't come from a blow dart.

I mean, that's intravenous.

I think you have to push a plunger to make it intravenous.

It actually hit the vein, I think.

So the nurse said that he cried in the hospital bed and blamed himself for what happened.

Okay.

What did he say?

He said

while he's bleeding with a gunshot wound and his wife is in the car as well with a more serious gunshot wound.

And that's what he's saying to help.

And the nurse said, quote, he kept repeating, it was all his fault because he shouldn't have fought with the man.

Okay.

So here we go.

That's the scene we're setting.

Montero in the doorway.

This guy

so freaked out, you need to give him a shot.

It's all my fault.

It's all my fault.

The wife is more seriously injured than him.

She can't speak.

They're bringing her in and she needs immediate surgery and everything else.

So that's the mess we're dealing with here.

So let's find out who this man is.

Who is it?

Who is this tiger man?

Who Who's this gunshot fella?

He is Carlos Perez-Olivo.

Yeah.

Okay, hyphenated.

Perez-Olivo.

Perez-Olivo.

He is born May 1st, 1948.

Yeah.

He's born in New York City.

Really?

Yep.

His mother had come to New York to go to school here.

She's from Puerto Rico originally.

She went to New York to go to school, and she met Carlos's father, who was a Cuban.

And this was, think about this.

This is, you know, 1948.

yeah so this isn't this is pre-Castro Cuba this is this is Ricky Ricardo Cuba almost two more years it'll be Ricky Ricardo Cuba yeah people had this this thought in the 50s of now you think of Cuba and it's kind of you know dystopian a little bit

you know it's Castro and a lot of army fatigues on army fatigues cars from 70 years ago not by choice right you know what I mean not there's a palm tree right there not because someone's working on it on the weekends because that's all that's there shit like that but back then people thought of Cuba as just basically just an American vacation spot and, you know, basically Florida too.

A lot of dancing.

More developed Florida.

Because back then, Florida wasn't shit.

It was old people.

A lot of dancing with hot people and bands.

Oh, absolutely.

That's what was going on.

If you've seen like Godfather 2, imagine, you know, that era.

That's what was going on.

It was party time, casinos and shows and showgirls and that kind of shit.

So anyway, father is from.

Cuba, but he's in New York as well.

They had a short relationship, his mother and father, and his mother got pregnant, and that was that.

Never knew his father.

His father was gone.

Oh.

It was a product of a very short relationship.

And that's that.

And yeah, his early childhood is not great for Carlos.

So his mother returned to Puerto Rico with him, knowing that she needed her family.

She can't be a young woman who's alone in New York City trying to raise this baby.

So she goes back to her family.

And there,

her parents basically took over the responsibility of raising the child.

He goes to his grandparents' house.

Basically, just grandpa, grandma and grandpa are it from

Puerto Rico.

Yeah, yeah.

So after

about three years of this in San Juan,

the family ended up moving to a rural area

in the central part of the island, which is kind of like Australia, Puerto Rico is.

There's not much in the middle.

It's fucking hot there.

So you go to where the water is.

And, you know, until that

until there's no more room there.

No one's going inland.

We didn't figure that out.

We were like, Phoenix, that's a seems like a good spot.

Like, oh, is it all full over by the

let's let's keep going till it's too hot to walk.

You drive up the California coast, there's a lot of open space, man.

As I'm looking around, I'm going, this is a whole lot of open space up and down this coast.

We turn back until the horses die.

Yeah, well, why are we here?

What's going on?

Who decided this was correct?

So anyway, they go there.

Now,

Carlos's grandfather here, mom's father, was the bishop of the Presbyterian church here.

Wow, that.

And Carlos's grandfather had eight kids.

Wow.

Yeah.

So they were,

and one of the kids, one of, so this would be his mom's, his uncle, his mom's brother, Ramon, was married to a woman, and they were childless.

Oh.

And I don't think they couldn't have kids.

Let's take Carlos.

They said we're happy to take young Carlos.

That's fine.

So they ended up becoming a family.

And Carlos always considered them his real mother and father.

Sure.

Because, I mean, his mother abandoned him and his father was never even around long enough to abandon him.

Right.

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Oy away 23.

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That's not great.

All that

plays on psychology, especially.

Sure does.

Yeah.

It's definitely a thing.

Yeah, he had a mom, and then he got new parents, and then got new parents.

Yes.

Even if you get new parents and they do a great job and everything's wonderful, this isn't like adopted at birth and whatever.

This is, he knew his grandparents.

He knows his mother's story.

He knows she ran out on him.

It's kind of...

Mandated his life until he could get some stability.

How old was he when Ramon took him?

Like four.

Oof.

You know what I mean?

Like not very old at all.

But they ended up really raising him well, and they did a good job.

Ramon was an attorney.

Oh.

And his wife was a teacher.

San Juan attorney?

Yeah, an attorney.

Good one.

Apparently.

well, we'll find out because Carlos is going to follow in his footsteps.

How about it?

So Ramon's an attorney and his wife Mercedes is a teacher.

Beautiful.

So they make good living and they can support him.

And that's their only kid.

So they have money to burn on him here.

He could read and write by age four, Carlos.

So he's a very bright kid.

When he entered school, his language skills are very good too.

He's also a lot taller, a tall kid,

early here.

a little bit of a pain in the ass.

He got thrown out of a few private schools as an elementary school kid.

And I bet you, too,

I bet you Ramon and Mercedes were probably pretty lenient with him based on

feeling bad for him.

So that will make a kid, you know, maybe act out in school a little bit and that kind of shit here.

So he's thrown out a little bit.

Eventually, Ramon enrolls him at the American school there, where he polished up his English English a little bit, and he starts doing real well in school here.

Bilingual shit, too, huh?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

He speaks English very, very well.

And like his family, they all speak English too a lot.

So, I mean, they know how to speak.

I mean, Puerto Rico is part of America, so they know how to speak English a lot of these people.

It's a land that matters.

What does it call it?

Territory.

Territory, yeah.

Guam or whatever.

So

he would apply to a number of schools here.

Yeah.

He wanted to go to Columbia really bad in New York City.

Oh, not the country.

Not the country.

New York City, Columbia University.

Hell yeah.

It's a really good school.

Ivy League?

I think it's either Ivy League or on the cusp.

What it is.

There's a taint of Ivy League.

It's fucking impressive.

Yeah.

That's the word.

I think, I don't know if it's either Ivy League or it's like Vassar, where it's like just like, you know, it's sort of dry humping Ivy League, but not quite there.

So he gets accepted there and he enrolls in Columbia University.

Wow.

So he gets to go to New York, which he loves.

He feels like this is where he belongs.

He likes New York a lot.

And

he ends up graduating there and then returning.

Ramon wanted him to come back and attend the University of Puerto Rico School of Law.

Okay.

That's where he went.

So he said, well, come back here and do your law school here.

Yeah, he did.

You got your undergrad there, got your BA.

So he does.

And Carlos didn't like it, though.

He said, quote, it was very political.

The school was heavily populated with those who were fervent proponents of Puerto Rican independence.

And he was very much wanting to be an independence.

American.

No, he was American.

He wanted to go to New York and he wanted to, you know, he wanted Puerto Rico to be the 51st state.

He doesn't want Puerto Rico to be its own country.

Got it.

Yeah, that's more of what he's about.

Let's be with America.

Yeah.

I've been to New York.

It's doing it.

I speak English.

I went to Columbia.

This is cool.

Have you guys seen it?

It's working.

It's working over there.

So

he would speak English to his professors a lot, and a lot of the fellow students would pick on him and call him an American all the time.

Oh.

So, yeah, they said,

you don't need to speak fucking English here.

We all speak Spanish.

There's no reason for you to think you're all fancy speaking English to everybody.

Why are you asking for pizza?

Yeah, what are you doing?

Yeah, you know what I mean?

Eat a plantain and check it out.

Shut the fuck up.

So

he didn't like it there.

Finally, Ramon arranged for his adopted son to go back to Columbia law school for a year.

For a year, he made a deal with him.

Okay, you got two years left.

You go for a year there, then you come back and finish up here, though.

So your diploma says from here.

But I get that you don't want to be here the whole time.

That's fine.

So he becomes a lawyer, does that, and

he wins his first nine cases.

Wow.

So he does really good.

Yeah.

And he starts getting more business.

And by the time he's 25, he's kind of a hot up-and-coming lawyer in San Juan.

You know, people, people need him, mainly because at this point in time, the mid-70s,

the drug trade is becoming huge.

And there's a lot of drug busts, which means there's a shitload for trafficking.

So which means there's a big need for defense attorneys and guys flush with shitloads of cash willing to pay for it.

So this is a golden age for defense attorneys.

Good for him.

Like 75 to 90 is a golden age for drug lawyers.

They're just getting paid duffel bags full of cash

to do nothing, to make deals, basically.

Right, to go get them as little time.

Yeah.

They know they're going.

They're dead to rights.

They're just need a guy to get on.

They're on camera.

They got on a recording, selling it to an undercover agent.

They got busted.

They got behind the wheel of the boat.

They got busted driving a fucking speedboat full of Coke as they're throwing fucking packages off the back.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So

Carlos likes it.

He's into it.

And so he's doing very well.

He's a lawyer.

He's a young swinging lawyer.

Awesome.

So it's got to be.

Who's winning?

Who's winning?

It's got to be fun.

He comes from a family with some, you know, something behind them.

They got a couple of bucks.

I mean, they're paying for Columbia fucking law school.

That's not cheap.

No.

Even in the 70s, it's not cheap.

So Carlos is all into it.

And it's at this point that he's set up on a date

with an Eastern Airlines stewardess.

Eastern Airlines.

Oh, yeah.

I remember Eastern Airlines back in the day.

I think they went out of business in about 92.

I was on the West Coast.

I didn't hear.

No, no, it's me.

It was like New York to Florida.

Nice.

New York to Florida, New York to Puerto Rico.

A little bit to San Juan.

Yeah.

I flew there to Florida when I was like nine on Eastern, I remember.

So, yeah,

he meets a young lady here named Peggy Hall.

Okay.

Okay.

Peggy Hall is born September 3rd, 1951.

So three years younger than him, but he's a swinging lawyer here.

All right.

Yeah.

Very different background.

Really?

Yeah.

She's from Lexington, Kentucky.

Oh.

And her last name's Hall.

Yeah.

I mean, she is.

She's a flight attendant.

Yeah.

So she's this is the best.

Yeah.

This is the best her family's done.

In the mid-70s, flight attendants, by the way, you go, oh, what's the big deal then?

Flight attendants back then, they would literally,

how they looked was number one.

You're ugly.

Get out of here.

Fuck off.

They tell them, hey, you're looking a little chubby there.

You know, his weight, like there was, it was like being a showgirl.

It was crazy.

So that was like, but it was for some reason a really sought-after job.

And they would tell the girls back then, because the young ladies back then were all looking to get married in the 1960s and early 70s.

So they'd tell them, like, you know, 93% of our flight attendants,

you couldn't be a flight attendant like past 30, but they say, like, they don't make it to 30 because they marry somebody first because they marry one of the first-class passengers or a pilot.

They marry a rich guy.

They marry a pilot or one of the people they meet on a plane.

So this is basically how you present yourself to the world to go to meet a man, is how they looked at it back then.

So

now she was born, Peggy,

nine kids in this family.

Nine.

Yeah.

Wrap that shit up.

Seven brothers, two sisters.

Oh, boys.

Imagine the mess seven boys would make in your house.

Just imagine.

The amount of broken shit you would make.

My little brother has two.

My nephews are both two.

They're not two, but they're.

There's two.

There's two.

They're six and four.

And they're fucking animals.

And they're great, nice kids, and they listen and shit.

But, I mean, they leave a trail of destruction behind them.

I couldn't imagine five more of those.

It'd be like, oh, wow.

My direct next-door neighbor has three boys.

Nightmare.

No, it's it's just nightmare.

Yeah.

There's a lot of.

Two, nine, and one, seven.

Fuck that.

That's a lot.

Yeah.

No.

That's two years apart.

They can team up on you at that point.

I had my kids five years apart, so they were a little, they couldn't really team up.

It was good.

So

anyway, her sister said that their upbringing was very normal.

Okay.

Here.

Nine kids was normal.

I'm sorry.

It's seven sisters

and a brother.

I apologize.

Oh,

altogether, eight sisters, one brother.

That poor boy.

I don't know how I mixed that up just now, but it's, yeah.

Can you imagine eight sisters?

That sister's life.

Man, although you would know how to get all the women, you would have all the tips.

You'd have all the sympathy.

Yeah.

Yeah, you'd know exactly.

I mean, you'd have the sympathy forever.

For every woman, you'd know what their problems are.

Except imagine having to bring a woman to like a family event.

Your eight sisters are going to grill her.

Judge her.

Oh, that's brutal.

But the sister called it what you would call, quote, your average middle-class Catholic home.

Middle class with that many kids?

How the fuck do you have the money?

What do you do?

Peggy's father's a weatherman with the government's National Weather Service, and he's stationed in Lexington.

That's why he's there.

He worked different shifts, so he's home different times and all that kind of thing.

So there's never any steady dad gets home at five and then we do this and then we do that type of thing here.

So he,

by the way, Peggy,

that's her real name.

On the birth studio and and everything.

Peggy.

Yeah.

Which I guess Margaret is the long version of Peggy.

Is it?

Yes.

Because Meg turns into Peg.

I.

And then Peggy.

I did not know that.

Who the fuck did?

Everybody, apparently.

Really?

Yeah, because I remember watching Mad Men with Sarah, and she was like, yeah, Peggy is Margaret.

And I was like, is it?

Who said that?

Sarah and it's right.

She knew that.

Yeah, apparently everybody knows that.

I thought it was Pegret.

I mean,

if somebody asked, I wouldn't even, I'd stare at it.

I don't know.

Whenever we re-watch Mad Men, we always just call her Pegrid now, the Peggy character.

Pegola?

I don't know.

Is Pegrat here?

Yeah, what's going on in the C.

So

in school,

basically, she went to Catholic school.

A nun kept making her write Margaret on her paper.

Really?

So your name's not Peggy, it's Margaret.

And she said, no, it's not.

It's fucking Peggy.

The sister said, my parents had to take her baptismal certificate to school to stop it.

Her fucking, we named her a short name.

Yes.

We fucked up.

yeah that'd be like they took you and they're like you're james no no i'm not i'm not doing art i'm not doing this but even but at least that's still a j name peggy and margaret aren't even close that don't make any sense so she said now um

what now it's in two different spots there's two different things so i don't know if it's

I don't know if they have seven brothers or seven sisters.

I don't fucking know.

There's nine children.

We know that.

In two quotes from the sister, she gives different accounts.

She says seven sisters and

she misspoke.

So I don't know.

So it's either eight girls and the bathroom's never available, or it's seven boys and everything's broken.

That's broken.

That's broken anyway.

Everything's broken.

Water's shooting out of fucking sinks.

The glass is broken.

It has to be.

It has to be.

So she said, if you talked to my seven brothers and sisters, you would get seven different stories about Peggy's life and our lives growing up in Lexington,

which is interesting.

She, and that, okay,

this is from a book.

I'll give the name later, but it says, that's the quote.

Then the next line in the book is, even to this day, she marvels when talking to her sisters and her brother.

Yeah.

The quote

right before it was seven brothers.

Yeah.

I don't know what's happening.

She must have misspoke on the first one, right?

I don't know what's going on.

So it's a close-knit family.

It doesn't matter.

It's a shitload of kids.

It's plenty.

It's fine.

So they weren't particularly well-off, solidly middle-class,

I would say, here.

So with so many kids, they said they really didn't need a lot of outside people.

You have your own

whole friend group in there with all those kids.

Yeah, they become a gang at that point.

You can't really join them unless you're born into them.

So they did a lot of shit, roller skating and all that kind of crap.

And Peggy here

is kind of the life of the party, everybody says.

She's got a lot of energy and all that kind of stuff and

wants to do stuff.

Moxie.

Moxie, absolutely.

Now, uh although all the girls were required to have chaperones while dating okay all the girls all the girls

not but

that's what i'm saying it's so confusing i don't know i don't know how many brothers and sisters there are but there's a lot it's killing me there's at least one sister and at least one brother and then there's altogether nine of them i don't know any of the other breakdown of that

So, but I guess her older sister, she was allowed to double date with her, so that was fine.

But her sister said Peggy wanted out of lexington kentucky yeah she said she wanted an exciting life and settling down in lexington was not the answer for her peggy would ultimately you know become the only child in the family not to marry and stay local is that right in lexington yeah she left she's the only one she's the one that was like i gotta get out there's always somebody in the family peggy's the party yeah peggy's the party so they also said she was thoughtful and modest and uh no drama with peggy everybody said no she's not a drama person she's just in a good kind of upbeat mood and trying to do stuff.

So she graduated from high school in 1969 and worked in Lexington for a year and then said, how do I get out of here?

Right.

I know I'll apply for a position as a stewardess.

Okay.

Because, number one, you have to live in another city.

And number two, you get to see a bunch of shit and travel to meet people.

And, you know, that's exciting when you're 18, 19 years old.

So she

applies for a job at Eastern Airlines,

considered to be like a hot shit job.

That means you're attractive and you're well-spoken and all of that.

And she said that, you know, Peggy, nope, she had never been on an airplane before.

Really?

Never even been on a plane before, but she was excited.

It was an adventure.

It was like guys in the 40s signing up for the war.

You know what I mean?

We're going to go over there.

I'm going to go see the world.

Let's get him.

We're going to go beat the Kaiser again.

Oh, wait.

It's not him anymore.

Okay.

Well, go do something.

I don't know.

Goddamn Hirohito.

We'll get him.

So, yeah, see, you're going to get him.

So, and Peggy, as an Eastern Airlines stewardess, you are based in New York.

Okay.

Which is very exciting to her, too.

She's getting out of Kentucky and going to the big city.

Big city.

She's jacked.

She gets kind of lonely in New York, though.

I do.

She said most of her downtime is spent in a tiny apartment with like three roommates.

And they're all rats.

Yeah.

They cook well, though.

That's the only saving grace.

Two rats and a roach.

That's it.

So she's got a bunch of roommates in a tiny hotel room, in a tiny apartment, and either that or she's on the road with the airline and she's sitting in a hotel room by herself.

So either way, getting kind of lonely.

You know what I'm saying?

So she loved the travel.

And one of the regular routes she's on is San Juan to Puerto Rico,

which is how she meets people that end up hooking her up with Carlos.

So here we go.

We've bonded them together here.

Carlos at this point said later on, quote, I was finally making money on my own.

I had people coming to see me every weekend, people sent by mutual friends to look me up.

If they were going to Puerto Rico, they'd say, Yeah, but back then, people were so much more social.

Yeah.

If you were going, someone you knew was going somewhere and you look up my friend.

Yes.

Use his name.

You'd say, this is his name, look him up.

And they would.

In the white pages.

And they'd call him.

Hi.

I don't know you.

So-and-so from Kentucky said to call you.

Yeah.

Is that right?

Come on, oh.

That's great.

How long have you known Bob?

That's terrific.

No, come on, bye.

We're going to have a barbecue.

You're fucking fucking now.

That's your friend.

I guess you're Sarah Lee.

No one does that now.

And it would be so easy to do now.

Oh, so much easier.

So easy.

And no one does that.

Look them up on Facebook.

Here's their at.

DM them.

It's fine.

Like, no.

They appreciate it.

Wow, that's so weird.

So he said he was living the bachelor life in San Juan and doing it here.

So Peggy's 23 at this point.

They met for dinner with two mutual friends who introduced them.

Here we go.

They make the setup.

And that's what they would do.

Carlos and his friends had a little thing where they'd always do double dates in case they didn't like the woman.

That way they could fucking, someone could make an excuse and help them out, and they could get out together.

Help you get your tires changed.

Let's go.

But Carlos likes Peggy.

Yeah.

And they dance the night away.

Sure.

The following day, he took her to the rainforest outside San Juan.

It's like a tourist thing that they do, and they spend the whole day together.

Wet trees.

They're like, they've known each other their whole lives by the end end of the day.

That's a pretty good first date, right?

Well, yeah, wet trees will bond you.

Anything with moisture, that's fucking it's going to bond you.

You feel it.

Yeah.

You get touched, the humidity and the sweat.

It's all sticky all over now.

It's all over.

So

apparently

that week, Carlos notified all his other girlfriends that he's done.

I'm off the market, ladies.

I've got one.

I found it.

She landed me.

That's it.

10-pound test.

I'm her whale.

I'm the one right here.

So Peggy started to spend all of her free time in San Juan with him.

Whenever she had a day off, she'd be down there.

Carlos's college buddy, Frank, Frank Farrillo over here.

This fucking guy.

He said Carlos, he remembers Carlos spending a week with him.

The two of them went to Venezuela to go on vacation.

And Frank said Carlos was miserable because Peggy wasn't there.

Oh.

Yeah, which is

interesting.

They went back to San Juan.

And as soon as he got back to San Juan, he proposes to Peggy.

Is that right?

He's like, I can't, you you know, it's only been three months they're dating.

We're already getting married.

I go away for a week and I can't live without her.

I think I got to marry her.

So that's that.

And Carlos,

you know, he said that she wanted to live together before she said yes.

But he said, can't.

I'm not like that.

He said, my parents, he goes,

it's their church going.

They got morals and shit.

They're church people.

They're real conservative.

And we got to get married before we live together.

So what do you say?

Carlos described the meeting and everything like this.

Quote, I talked to her all night, and

I saw the next day, by the end of the day, it was like I known her all my life.

Three or four weeks after I got rid of all the other girls that I knew, three months later, I proposed to her, and six months after that, I was married.

Wow.

So, I mean, that he moves quick.

Yeah.

Decisive.

They know what they want.

Well, Peggy doesn't, but she was like, maybe we could just live together for a minute.

No, no, no, no, no.

No, no.

Put this dress on.

I've told all the other women I won't fuck them.

Come over.

So buy a fancy dress because we're going, sweetheart.

Call your friends.

So they tie the knot here.

It is February 7th, 1976.

They do it at a big church wedding in Lexington.

Oh, in front of the whole family and all that kind of thing.

And the family welcomed him with open arms.

They liked him.

They thought he was.

All his Puerto Rican family came to Lexington.

They must have.

Jesus.

That must have been fun.

Yeah.

It's been fun for them.

What's with all the trucks?

Yeah, I don't understand what's going on here.

What's happening?

So Carlos didn't really go to church very much, though.

He was more of an agnostic, even though his family was into that.

He said that he didn't understand religion.

He said, I have a hard time believing there's a God when bad things happen to good people.

And children.

And children.

Yeah.

I think they can lump them in with good people.

Sometimes.

Sometimes.

I mean, some of them are shitty kids.

Even if they're a shitty kid, I don't want them to get something bad.

No, no.

They haven't had time to not be shitty anymore.

So Peggy was the one who's going to, she said, when we have kids, they're going to be given a religious upbringing and all that kind of thing.

She said, he was like, all right, whatever.

If that's what you want to do, I don't care.

I'll be busy.

I don't know.

So, October 3rd, 1977, here,

they have a son.

By the way, Peggy had made a bet with her friend that she wouldn't have a baby within their first year of marriage.

And she did not win.

She lost.

Yep.

yep october 3rd 1977 she gave birth to carlos jr you bet you know it who they call carlitos

little carlos little carlos and little carlos uh is gonna have a much better life than uh father carlos uh he's gonna have an easier life yeah he's got a stable environment for sure um so uh there by the way the names because he's perez olivo yeah apparently uh that's your parents yeah that's in in some hispanic cultures they do that they join the name so carlito our Carlo, is going to be Perez Hall.

Is that right?

Because he joins the mothers and he takes that tradition.

So he's Perez Hall instead of Perez-Olivo.

So that's how it goes.

Now,

they're still in Puerto Rico.

They got married in Lexington, but living in Puerto Rico.

Really?

That's where his law practice is.

They got married, then they loaded back up, went to Puerto Rico, and then the baby's born.

So that's where they live.

Peggy did not want to live there.

No.

She didn't like it.

She couldn't speak Spanish Spanish well.

She's from Kentucky.

Right.

In the 50s and 60s.

So there's not a lot of Spanish.

They don't even have a Taco Bell there.

Yeah.

They don't even know what a fucking, you know what I mean?

They don't know what a gordita is.

They don't know anything.

What?

Chalupa?

What's that?

They have no idea.

I know those are made-up words, too.

Well,

Gordida, is it?

No, no, no, no.

That's not a food, though.

Right.

It's not.

That's what I'm saying.

So that's what I mean.

Like, there's no Spanish culture in Kentucky in the 60s.

It just isn't.

And marrying marrying that culture with that culture is a very tough.

It's an interesting thing.

And she said, too, she just felt like there was some antagonism against Americans living there, too, at the time.

She was on the rest.

Wasn't real comfortable there.

So

she said at the time, too, there wasn't even any English language TV on the island.

What?

So you can't even watch TV.

And there's no VCRs.

It's 1976.

So basically, you're just watching people speak a language you don't understand.

And even if you want to try to learn that way, they speak it so fucking fast.

You don't know what the fuck they say.

And there's no closed captioning.

No.

If you could get closed captioning going, that's a good way to learn.

But otherwise, you can't.

I don't know.

I've always told people, you know, they have the people, read to your kids, read to your kids.

That's what fucking TV with closed captioning is for.

Let them read to their kids.

Read to your kids.

If you're doing something else and you'd like to be reading to your kids, turn the TV on with the closed captioning.

It's really the same thing.

Let them read for themselves.

Yeah.

That's all.

Have Dora read to your kids.

It doesn't matter.

So, but she was very depressed.

Yeah.

Not real good as well.

They lived in a nice neighborhood, but there's a lot of crime around them too.

So she doesn't feel real comfortable walking around.

Oh, boy.

And for Carlos, too, you know,

his father retired a year and a half earlier from, because he worked for his dad, being a lawyer, but his father retired, so he didn't really feel any obligation with that.

So, you know, he said that he's five years, he's in there for five years, and he,

if you're there for five years, uh, before if you put in five years before the federal bench in San Juan, you're entitled to basically you could practice in the U.S.

too.

Is that right?

Yeah, so he decided that he could go to New York and practice there.

So, licensure works with the

board or with the board?

If you're on the federal bench, too, it like it

qualifies you.

I don't know if it's, this was 1976.

Yeah, they made it.

It was 1978.

Who the hell knows?

So, he ends up coming to New York and going to work for the Legal Aid Society, which is who defends indigence.

Oh, boy.

Yeah, this is.

That's your public defender office.

This is a homeless guy found with a crack rock in his pocket.

This is your lawyer.

While pissing in the subway.

Yeah, that's the guy.

That's the lawyer.

Or anybody else with no money.

But I mean, I'm just saying that someone who definitely has no money.

100%.

So, yeah,

these guys are overworked.

And ladies, they're overworked like a motherfucker.

I mean, it's an avalanche.

Overworked with shit where every time they have to make a deal, because this is pretty good.

This is probably pretty cut.

That's all they can do.

Can I get him a deal with no jail time?

Great.

Good.

Here you go.

So he ends up doing this.

He called it.

Carlos later said it was the best and worst of times.

Okay.

Money problems are an issue.

They couldn't afford to live in Manhattan.

They have a wife and son.

He's working for the Legal Aid Society.

So didn't really.

know what to do.

in Manhattan with a small child anyway, right?

Yeah, you do.

If you want to live in New York City, it's the same as living in any other borough, except it's actually nicer.

Yeah, there is that.

But you're going to be in a building.

No matter where you are in the city, you're going to be a building.

You don't want to be in a building.

Exactly.

And they want to live in the city.

So they end up getting an apartment in the Bronx,

which is not Manhattan.

No.

I mean, it's kind of the same island, a little thing in between them, but

it's close.

But

that ain't Manhattan at all.

So the Bronx is like its own planet.

Yeah.

So trust me, my family's from.

It's out of the way, too.

No, it's not out of the way.

It's just.

that's not out of the way?

No, it's right north of the city.

It's connected to right north of the city there.

It seems out of the way.

Right north of Harlem?

Is it out of the way of what?

I don't know.

Fucking...

If you've got to go all the way down there every day, though.

It's closer than Brooklyn.

Yeah, I suppose that's true.

I guess unless you lived over by the water in Brooklyn and you can cross it right there.

Yeah, but I don't know.

It's any other borough.

It's all the same.

Seems like that's a lot of walking, though.

A lot of walking?

Yeah.

Where are you walking?

Everywhere, right?

Because you can't really.

The subway goes there.

Yeah, there's that, I suppose.

Yeah.

Take the subway.

Take the train.

Buses, trains.

Yeah, I guess.

Yeah, you got stuff.

Public shit.

Yeah.

Tons of shit.

I'm not used to that.

I see how big it is.

I'm like, I can't walk all day.

That's all.

That's too much.

It's too much walking.

It's just too much.

So Peggy's happy to be in New York.

Carlos is happy.

They got a baby.

Everything's going well here.

After six months, he stopped being

a state-paid, you know,

got a new

public defender here

because he's getting a lot of work.

And so at first you put in for,

you put yourself on the list of lawyers who would take clients given to them by the state, and the state pays for them.

Not much.

That's a public defender who's not like a public defender.

So he's getting tons of work, so he realized he could actually get paid for it.

So he's trying to do that.

So it's the early 80s.

Crack is in full swing.

Big boon to the legal industry.

This time in the drug wars, fantastically.

Fuck yeah.

He said said about 75% of his caseload was drug-related at the time.

He said drug dealers always paid their attorneys

most of the time in cash.

They said they believed that all the court-appointed attorneys were shit.

So you had to get a pay lawyer.

If you've ever seen The Wire, all they talk about is a pay lawyer.

Get yourself a pay lawyer.

You got to get a pay lawyer.

That's what you need.

So having your own lawyer is a big deal.

And saying you got a lawyer on retainer is like, you know, shows you're some cool shit, basically.

You got $2,500 chilling.

That's good for you.

That's good.

So now look at me.

me I'm important yeah so he's got a bunch of Colombian drug dealer clients 1984 they have another son named Merced

and Mercedes like was it said that's after his mom yeah you know his adopted mom or not now they he buys a home that they can afford yeah in the middle of nowhere where's that in Delaware County where the fuck is that Pennsylvania oh we talked about that in the last Pennsylvania episode I believe it was in or near Delaware County so they have that's when they had the baby and uh they wanted, he basically wanted them to have a yard.

Okay.

Yeah, two boys and no yard.

Throw a ball.

Yeah, and especially if you're trapped in an apartment with two little boys, that's going to be a fucking nightmare.

Throw a ball in the Bronx, you're going to break a window.

Yeah, you need them to run.

And if you don't want them to run around the streets, get them a yard.

There you go.

So, but after a few years of driving all the way from fucking Pennsylvania to the city, they were like, okay, we got to get a place like

suburbs.

You know, safe and nice and good schools, but actually, so I sent two hours to work every goddamn day.

So in 87, they moved to Chappaqua.

Jesus.

That's where they go.

Yeah.

So Peggy didn't like it at first, but they decided to go there.

Anyway, they bought their first house, a very small house, not by the standards.

They called it a modest house there, but it was a five-bedroom colonial.

It was a nice house.

Yeah.

But for there, it's not

out of bounds, a spectacular mansion.

So in 1989-ish, they have another child.

They have a daughter

named Alyssa or Alicia, however you want to say that.

Alyssa, except I-A.

Alicia.

No, L-A-L-Y-S-I-A.

Yeah.

Alicia.

Alyssa.

It could be Alicia.

Alicia.

It could be a lot of things, honestly.

That's one of those where every substitute teacher, no one ever got it right.

It could be Ali.

I don't know.

Call me Al.

I don't know.

It's at this time that Carlos gets sick.

He has Lyme disease.

Oh, damn it.

People who don't live in deer tick territory, Lyme disease is, you never think about it.

No.

But I live in the woods.

I have a can of deep woods off by every fucking door of my house.

If I'm going near the woods, I'm spraying down.

It comes from Lyme, Connecticut, and then it spreads out from there.

It's crazy.

It is.

Lyme disease can be real nasty.

Really, and it can come and recur.

It's a nasty fucking disease.

It can lay dormant.

It's tough.

Antibiotic the motherfucker out of you.

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter.

It stays around.

You can stick around.

Those little bastards, man.

Oh, useless little shits.

So

this was rough.

So he gets Lyme disease, and he said he underwent every therapy known to man.

He later said, you name it, I got it, meaning therapy-wise.

He didn't really like seeing doctors.

So before he got all these treatments, he basically suffered with it for about seven or eight months before he finally went to the doctor.

Christ.

He just felt like shit and fatigued and run down.

And finally,

Peggy's like, go to the fucking doctor, stupid.

So he went.

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So that is steady regimens of antibiotics and

not doing well.

He ends up slipping into depression because he can't get a hold of it and can't get a

vicious case.

It's tough.

He's given Prozac, which is brand new at the time, 89.

It's the wonder drunk back then.

Just don't be depressed about it.

Here you go.

Yeah.

Don't be

depressed about your ticket.

You're going to smile that you're tired now.

Listen, we can't fix it.

Right.

But

this will make you not want to kill yourself about it.

You won't be sad about it if we give you these.

Take these twice a day and you won't be as sad about it.

Is that better?

Wow.

Which is better than back in the day when they go, cheer up, bitch.

I don't know.

I don't know what to tell you.

There's literally no cure for it still.

No.

It just keeps persisting.

Are they looking for one?

What's going on?

They should be.

God damn.

They just put up, there's a lot of campaigns to stop Lyme disease, but it's not to cure it.

It's just to not get it.

Why don't you get out there and stop?

Tell it to stop, Jay.

Hey, dear, stop knocking your ticks off.

I'll go out in the woods and yell at him when we're done.

Maybe they'll listen.

Stop it.

I don't know.

Maybe they'll listen.

Start it.

Yeah, I'm a deer.

They're on me.

What do you want from me?

But Prozac didn't do well for him.

He actually,

he collapsed one time in the hospital when he was brought to the emergency room.

And he was out of work for two months.

So this isn't good at all.

And he's depressed and he hates the weather in the northeast.

If you're depressed and then winter rolls around, it's not good.

It's a long winter.

And you're from a beach community.

You're from Puerto Rico.

Yeah, you grew up on the beach.

It's a long winter.

It is.

It's gray.

Now, when you're here a few years,

it's actually nice because then when the spring comes, you're happy for it and you love the summer and the fall's nice.

Yeah.

And then the winter comes, you're like, all right, fine.

It's been nice all year.

It's fine.

Whereas like Arizona, you're you're like, the first day it cracks, like, 91, you're like, oh, God, it's never going to stop.

I can't see anything.

I can't, and it's going to be hotter than I want it to be for like eight months.

I can't do it.

I walked outside and brought in the trash cans, and now my phone doesn't work.

Yeah,

people are like, oh, that's a funny joke.

No, that's not a joke.

That's just real.

When it's 115, if I walk outside, your phone gives up.

It just gives up.

No, no, no, no, no.

It actually said you hear, Siri says, Uncle, and then it dies

can't take it anymore the screen is so dark it adjusts for the temperature by dimming the screen but the screen gets so dim you can't even see that it says overheated

horrible have you ever heard siri cry because i have it's sad

you guys very sad sad to hear here

she mourns you

can't be good for you either

this is gonna kill me i'm in your pocket god damn it so he tells Peggy, if I don't get the fuck out of here, the weather is going to kill me.

I need to get out of here.

So she says, okay.

And they all move back to Puerto Rico.

Really?

All move back down there.

Yep.

So

don't understand it.

Yeah.

So

now they have three kids here.

Carlos Jr.

here, Carlitos, is the only family member other than Carlos Sr.

who speaks even any Spanish.

Yeah.

And Carlos Jr.

doesn't really speak it that well.

Merced, the middle child, would not learn it.

Siri said, I do not want to.

I'd have no interest in it.

He said if he, basically, he thought if he learned the language, he'd be stuck there his whole life.

So,

yeah.

So, and he said, too, that it's also his fault because he said that it was easier just to speak English around the house.

So, that's why if I spoke more Spanish to him, they'd know it.

Sure.

So, they go back to Puerto Rico, and that doesn't work out either.

No.

No.

Peggy still hates Puerto Rico.

That's the problem.

She gets there.

She's like, oh, yeah, this this place that I hate.

Yeah, okay.

I forgot how much this place sucks.

And the kids are like, hey, this place does suck.

Dad, your hometown sucks.

Yeah, they don't even want to speak Spanish.

So, I mean, it's not going to be good for this.

That's a piece of shit, Dad.

Nothing's on TV.

I don't know what this means.

I don't know what Sabado Gigante means.

I don't speak Spanish.

I know that's a Mexican station, but that's the first one I thought of.

That's the first thing I can think of.

So

he didn't like it base.

And Carlos didn't really like it either at that point.

He He goes, well, this sucks.

He said, after a while, you've realized all you can do is you go out to dinner, you lie on the beach, and that's it.

Yeah.

Which sounds good, but he goes, kind of got boring after a minute.

Does it?

I'd like to give it a try.

I guess if you're young.

God damn it.

It gets boring.

You want to do other shit.

I don't know.

He said he called it restrictive, the island.

Thought it was restrictive, which any island would feel restrictive.

Yeah.

It's an island.

You can't get off.

Yeah.

That's the idea of an island.

Restrictive.

Yeah.

I don't like it.

You can't go anywhere.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Even if I was in Hawaii, I I feel like I'd be at the edge of the island going, I can't go any farther.

Just your car on the beach.

I just want to leave.

Yeah.

So 1999, back to New York.

What the fuck, you guys?

Three years in Puerto Rico, they spent.

And we're going back to the place that if the weather's going to kill me.

They'll kill me.

Same town.

They're going to Chappaqua again.

Oh, my God.

Remember that place I hated?

Yeah.

Let's go back.

I guess the lime cured up.

Honestly.

I don't know.

The sun baked it out of them down there.

I'm not sure.

But as soon as they get back, depressed again.

He forgot and remembered fast.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

I'm upset here.

But they had a lot of family and friends there and all that kind of shit.

So it's just kind of where they belonged.

They stayed with friends for a little while, and Carlos is looking for a job, looking for a firm that'll hire him.

At that point, didn't want to return to law school or law.

He didn't want to be a lawyer anymore.

He wanted to get a corporate job.

Oh.

So he had a bunch of interviews, but couldn't land a job.

He's almost 50 years old.

He has no corporate experience.

He's a fucking lawyer.

So unless you're looking for a lawyer, you have no use for this guy here.

So he was finally, one of his friends is a lawyer, asked him to be a co-counsel with him.

So he said, all right, fine.

It's good money.

He needs a job.

So he does it.

So then he gets another case after that, and then it picks up for him.

So

he's doing all this type of shit.

He said the only way he could make a decent living and afford to live in Chappaqua was being a lawyer.

And to scumbags.

Drug dealers, mob guys, things of that nature.

And all that.

They were all the felons because those are the people who can afford.

Mob guys, drug dealers can afford lawyers.

That's who you do.

And pay well to do it.

Yeah,

they'll pay even more

than most people would.

Especially if you'll do a good job.

Yeah, that's the thing.

So, you know, they're guilty as shit, and Carlos doesn't give a fuck.

He's a lawyer.

If they need a lawyer, they have to have one by the law.

Everybody deserves a defense.

So, yeah, he said it's great.

And most of the clients took pleas, he said, too.

So it was super easy.

He didn't have to go to trial most of the time.

He'd just arrange a plea deal, get the guy a few less years, and that's it.

And as long as he does a good enough job to make that guy happy, everybody wins.

Everybody wins.

So he's, and then he's handling a bunch of federal cases because that's a lot of the drug cases are federal.

And so he's got to travel a lot.

He's going to Florida.

He's going to Alaska.

Anywhere.

Yeah.

He's in such demand because, in a lot of places, he's one of the few attorneys attorneys who speaks Spanish.

Oh.

And whenever it's like guys who are from South America, guys like that, they want a guy they can speak to.

They don't want to go through a translator to talk to their lawyer.

So he's their kind of choice.

Awesome.

And it's very much a word-of-mouth business.

If some guy got you a good deal, you tell all your friends, and then they get in trouble and they call you because this guy told me you got him a good deal.

So that's how this works.

One good deal, get you 10 more clients.

You speak Spanish.

And he can talk to you, call him on the phone, and all that kind of shit.

So he's doing that.

In one case, he got a big client of dismissal.

Oh.

And it was a big deal and got a lot of attention.

All the other drug dealers were like, oh,

that guy.

Yeah.

He was like Bruce Cutler in the fucking 80s was the mob lawyer that eventually the judge ruled he couldn't be Gotti's lawyer anymore because he was part of his conspiracy too good.

Yeah.

That's what it was.

It was too good.

They menendezed him in that trial.

They were like, look, you got off last time.

You're not getting off this time.

We won't even let you have your lawyer.

That's how much you're not getting off this time.

So, yeah, but he's never home.

Yeah.

Always going, always doing shit.

At home, three kids, nice home,

doing well.

Peggy's active in the local school community.

The house they buy

is three doors down from Bill and Hillary Clinton.

Wow.

Yes.

They're doing well.

Doing pretty good.

Yeah.

Pretty good cash.

Yes.

And this is, you know, right after they got out of the White House.

Yeah.

This is writing books and making dough.

And doing speaking engagements, making huge money.

So this is a very safe neighborhood because literally the Secret Service is

on the streets.

It's in trees with sniper rifles.

So you don't get a safer neighborhood.

Your kids are playing baseball under the cover of

laser docks.

Balls and strikes are being called from the shadows.

They don't even know where it's coming from.

Ball?

Huh?

Where did that come from?

Yeah, a man talking into his hand just said ball.

You don't pick up your dog's shit.

Your brains are just come out in front of you on the lawn.

Zero tolerance.

Yeah.

So yeah, Peggy is active.

She volunteers at the local school.

She's going to get a job there also.

She volunteers for a lot of events.

Carlos is doing great in his criminal practice.

Doing well.

I mean, doing well.

They would go into the city to see movies and go to dinner, and they travel back and forth to Puerto Rico and all that kind of thing.

And that's when they move into the house.

They rent a house three doors down from the Clintons, like a rent to buy.

We'll talk about that.

So

now he is like big and

dramatic, and he's a defense lawyer.

So, I mean, he'll tell you a story, and it's got to be a tale.

She's not like that at all.

She's meek.

No, no, not meek.

Not meek at all.

She's got Moxie.

She's Peggy with Moxie, remember?

She's Margaret Moxie over here.

She's just a charming lady.

But she's just not like that.

Yeah, she's not a big show-off.

She's not flashy.

She doesn't have to be more modest.

She likes the fancy stuff.

She likes going to the city and going to a nice dinner and that kind of shit, but she's not one of that guy.

She's writes handwritten thank you cards to everybody still in the 2000s.

You know what I mean?

Not flashy.

Yeah.

Modest and steady and kind.

Class.

And classy.

That's what you call her.

That's a good way to put it.

So Carlos, a lot of confidence there, though.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

A lot of confidence.

He deals with high-level drug dealers, mob guys, hit men.

I mean, this is who he deals with.

So he feels cool also.

You know what I'm saying?

Because the weather can kill him.

The weather will make him sad enough to kill him.

That's funny.

I think before he just didn't have quite as successful a time, too.

I think

that'll get you, unless you have a severe chemical imbalance,

your life being a little better, will pull you up a couple of notches.

It'll take you from a three to a six and a half pretty quick into a manageable area.

Yeah, I can't, I don't have enough food, I don't have enough money or food to do it.

That's depressing, and I feel like dog shit.

That's what I do.

I have a headache and I'm fatigued.

Yeah, and there's that.

If that's why you're depressed, because shit isn't going well, and then shit starts going well, problem solved.

There it is.

That's the problem.

If everything's going well and you're still sad, that's a different issue.

So

anyway, he liked all this shit.

He's into it.

For a couple of years, he spends about three weeks out of each month in Tennessee.

Oh, where at?

In Memphis.

Really?

He told everybody that Memphis was the central hub where a good deal of the illicit drug

shit flowed through, basically.

It would come to and from the south and across the country.

Memphis is the crossroads because the 40 goes through it and other shit connects there.

And so that's what he said.

Yeah.

Now, before they move into this house next to the Clintons there,

they stayed at a hotel for a month and they stayed with friends and they rented apartments on like two-month basis

while they looked for a place.

And then finally, they end up getting this house.

So 1999, she's working.

Peggy gets a job as a teaching assistant at Douglas Graflin Elementary School

where she's just known as like the perfect.

lady to have around small kids.

Kind and calm.

Okay.

And nice and everything else.

This is her youngest kid, Alicia, Alicia, whatever.

She goes to school there while she's going there.

So she volunteers.

She's doing all that.

She starts in 99, did a good job.

She works primarily with first graders.

Little kids.

You got to have a lot of patience there.

Six-year-olds.

They said she's got a soft voice and, you know.

remembers all the shit about the kids.

She makes less than $22,000 a year.

That's the thing.

You're not making any money doing that.

But

she liked it.

She really liked it.

She felt like she was doing something meaningful, like showing these kids away and educating them.

And Carlos liked that.

She was happy.

Everybody's happy.

He's making enough money to support it anyway.

Yeah, yeah, you know, he was happy that she's doing something she likes.

Everybody's doing well here.

Peggy's writing her sister saying that she, you know, she likes helping the special needs kids because they need extra help.

And her sister said she loved her job.

She found a lot of personal fulfillment in the work.

She seemed to have finally found her niche niche in life and was loving it there you go so good for her uh around 2000 carlos has a little bump in the road here

he is

he ends up having to give up his law license in puerto rico oh not in new york in puerto rico uh after failing to answer disciplinary charges there oh he just didn't go back to deal with it so they just they you know he's kicked off puerto rico he can't do that so he continued to practice out of in new york he had an office in queens that's where he's practicing out of.

Now, he says he thinks one of the reasons that there were some discrepancies

was his,

basically, his billing practices

here.

He considers himself to be kind of old school in the billing, basically.

When he had a potential client, he would look at the case and then he would determine how much of a demand of time it would be.

How serious are the charges, you know, all this type of thing.

And then he would quote a fee.

Sure.

And that's how they would do it.

It wasn't itemized.

It wasn't, you know, per phone call per hour.

It was all.

This is the balloon ballpark of everything here.

This is what it's going to cost.

So, you know, that's kind of how it is here.

All of his clients, too, are thinking if they had a paid lawyer, they're going to get off.

So they were into it.

He says that was an immigrant mentality that a lot of them had.

Oh.

He said it.

I know that from where I'm from, even though they're not really technically immigrants, but still, he said,

basically, where I'm from in a lot of these countries where they're from, Colombia, places like that, you pay off public officials.

That's how you get things done.

So they think I pay this lawyer a bunch of money.

And that kids are going away.

He can distribute it to whoever he needs to bribe

and keep a cut for himself.

They're assuming that's all bribes paid and you get your cut and then I go home, right?

That's the money that you're quoting me.

That's what he's saying.

So

he said also the other thing is there's a lot of what he called advocate groups who encouraged people to file complaints for even the most trivial of perceived wrongs, he said, against their lawyers.

He said he never took in retainers.

He claimed the reason for that was, you ready for this?

There it is.

We're going to have, he has this excuse

several times for very different things.

Is it because he's not working for free?

No, it's a quote, Hispanic thing.

What?

What are you talking about?

No.

See, I don't make people pay at the pump before pay before they pump because it's a Hispanic thing.

No, pay me and then pump your gas.

That's how this works.

Fuck are you talking about?

I don't accept retainers.

It's a Mexican thing.

He said, you come to me and I make you sign an agreement, the retainer.

That's like saying, I don't trust your words, so I need this on paper.

That was my logic.

It's just business.

Yeah.

It's just business.

You're not running.

It's a contract, man.

You're helping me.

You're not running a fucking, you know, you're not running a food truck here.

This is, I trust you, Bill.

You'll be here tomorrow.

You're here every day.

This is

my life.

I'm professional thousands of dollars.

This is my livelihood.

Ethics committee, though, the legal ethics committees frown upon lawyers who don't have retainer agreements because it's supposed to be all very transparent.

Eventually, they legally will become required.

Oh, is that right?

Yeah.

But, you know, he thought it was just, eh, what a big deal.

Stupid.

He said also, I don't like hourly rates.

No?

Not a big hourly rate guy like the other guys.

I'm a piecework guy.

That's what he said.

He said, hourly rates were just an excuse for the lawyer to drag his feet and pat his bill.

I'm doing it for you.

The fact that I'm not billing you transparently in a way that you can see exactly what I've done and when.

You understand?

I'm charging you $10,000 to do eight hours worth of work because, I mean, that's what I do.

It's a Mexican thing.

He's Puerto Rican.

Puerto Rican.

Spanish thing.

It's a Hispanic thing as he puts it, quote unquote.

This is crazy, though, because he knows what his clients think.

Yeah.

His clients think, I give you a big bag of cash.

And you go dole it out.

Everything is gone.

You do the little casino change and shift steal and show your hands, and that's that.

And you dole it out.

That is untraceable to me.

And he knows that's what they're thinking.

That's why he wants to do this, because if he had a retainer and all that, they would think it was too on the level and they weren't getting a deal here.

Okay.

So that's what he's doing, basically.

So he said that also it bothered him that the ethics committees never seemed to go after all those big firms that would abuse their hourly billings and, you know,

charged lunches and charge, you know, two-minute phone call, charged for an hour and shit like that.

Yeah, they also, the ethics committee chastised him for including travel time in his billing structure.

And he said,

they don't have the same kind of zeal with the big firms.

It's only picking on the little guy.

That's what it is.

He said, man, this is ridiculous.

He said, you know,

this is, I didn't like it.

So he was getting fed up with law, basically, because he didn't like the fact that he had to follow it.

Right.

Didn't care for that, really.

Yeah.

You know,

I got to do this shit, too.

So

he wanted to get to the city, actually.

He wanted to live in Manhattan.

Really?

Yeah.

He's like, I want to get a nice place in Manhattan, but that's more expensive than...

Chappaqua.

Right.

So he's like, I mean, a parking space is fucking two grand a month.

Literally a parking space.

Now is more than that.

That's what I mean.

That's crazy.

Yeah, back then.

So I remember on Seinfeld in the fucking like 94, George was super excited because someone was giving him a parking space for $500 a month.

Wow.

He was like, it's only $500 a month.

And that was in the, that was 30 years ago.

Yeah.

So what do you think it is now?

That was when like people like Jerry Seinfeld, the character, could afford to live in Manhattan with Kramer doesn't even have a job across the way.

So Carlos said about Peggy, we were so similar in so many ways then.

I was horrible with money.

I could make it, but I just couldn't hold on to it.

And she was worse.

Really?

So, yeah, they said.

She's not making any money and she's spending it all.

They're all spending money.

Yeah, they live there.

So they lived on basically right on the cusp of disaster financially all the time.

He also said about Peggy, quote, she would buy stuff, then offer to take it back, something I never took her up on.

She knew me well enough to know that I would never tell her to take it back.

But he said she did a lot of shopping.

So 2000 is when they find the house near the Clintons here.

They went to a series of apartments.

Like I said, the two boys had already grown up and moved out.

By now, they only have the daughter.

She's in high school.

So they find a house, the one by the Clintons there.

Carlos enters into an arrangement with the landlord that says in a contract that he'd buy the house at a set price after three years and that part of the rent money would go toward the purchase, at least with an option to buy.

When the lease ended, though, Carlos said the owner reneged

because the real estate market had inflated the price and he could get it a lot more.

Well, that's why Carlos locked the price in in a contract.

So Carlos sued and settled out of court.

He got all of his rent money back plus $50,000.

Oh, that's great.

Because the guy was supposed to sell it to him.

So that's when they ended up in the big house coming up here.

So Carlos also negotiated an oil deal with some, never thought that was coming with some Venezuelan businessmen who were in need of an American citizen who could move freely between the two countries

to go to do business shit.

So he was getting about 20 grand a month off of that.

Wow.

Big money 25 years ago.

Now it's big money, but back then, too, even bigger.

So

yeah, he's supposed to, I guess he's supposed to put together venture capitalists in the United States and all that kind of thing.

He also gets a 5% interest in the company, which is located in the whoa, Lake Maracaibo oil region.

So the plan was to buy used oil, clean it, and then sell it to poorer nations.

Refurbished oil.

Re, dude.

Oh, gross.

Fucking used oil.

Abolishing oil?

You just clean it.

He said you cook it and clean it up.

You clean the impurities out of it and then sell it to poor countries.

Run it through a filter and then ship it.

Here you go.

So he said money wasn't a problem.

He was paying $5,500 a month in rent back then, keeping up with car payments for five vehicles.

What?

And everything else that just the taxes there would be wild.

So by the early 2000s, he's got big-time neighbors.

He's got a, lives in a, in a real prestigious community and

feeling good about himself, making a bunch of money.

He's got Venezuelan oil money coming up.

Exemplary American.

He's doing fantastic.

So now also, they're also getting older here.

Think about it.

They're both

50 and 50.

Living right at the edge of their means.

They're right there.

Yeah.

Which is at that age, you just want to start sucking money away here.

So unless you want to do lawyering for the rest of your fucking life, they got into the habit of doing some power walking.

Sure.

So they're moving around.

Peggy, I guess, has a sciatica issue.

Yeah.

And so she's got pain down her lip, down her lip, down her hip.

Down her lips.

Down her lips.

That's how that works.

The sciatica makes you pussy numb.

That's how that whole thing works.

It makes them like lightning.

Oh, that's how you don't want lightning shooting through your labia.

That's never good.

The lightning labia.

Lightning labia.

Oh, lightning lips, Peggy.

So

she said walking helped.

So that's what they did.

Carlitos got married.

Carlos paid for everything.

Wow.

Or paid for part of it anyway.

Even after he did the rehearsal dinner, which traditionally it's groom's parents do the rehearsal dinner, bride's parents pays for the wedding.

But he paid for part of the wedding too, which is nice.

He also gave them $3,000 for their honeymoon.

Wow.

And

I guess he had bought cars for all the kids and the wife.

Yeah.

And, yeah, so he's spending pushing money out there.

He is blowing it out the door, man.

Merced ends up going to West Point.

Wow.

Which is, again,

he must have done real well in school.

Maryland, yeah?

No, it's about 40 minutes away from here.

Is West Point not at

West Point is right up the river from here.

Yeah, I mean, I understand where you know.

What's the Navy?

Annapolis.

Oh, yeah.

That's the Navy.

Yeah, okay.

No, West Point's the Army.

That's the big one for the Navy.

Yeah, that's the the Navy.

Annapolis is in the Navy as the Navy.

See, I was on board with South Africa.

You were in a branch of the military.

I had some military boys doing well somewhere.

So, West Point, though, I know, is extremely difficult to get into.

It's very hard.

That's the Army?

That's the Army school.

It's really academically.

It's the best one.

It's like impossible.

It's Ivy League, basically.

2006 comes around.

Everything's going great.

Let's have some problems.

Carlos has what I would like to call some lawyerly problems.

Uh-oh.

Okay.

He is officially,

well, no, at this point, he's under investigation for professional misconduct, specifically for misappropriating funds from a client.

What do you do with them?

Nothing.

Hey,

I don't do this

hourly patting the bill bullshit.

I'm crazy.

I charge for a job.

I do the job.

I do the job.

I'm not misappropriating anything.

All right.

Okay.

One of these people is Sybil Fernandez,

a second-generation American who lived and worked in Long Island.

And

she talks about basically her younger brother getting arrested for assault.

And they were able to scramble and find Carlos as an attorney.

Sure.

Her and her mother, who is from another country.

So she was,

you know, didn't know how to do this or anything like that.

And Carlos provided some much-needed

calming down.

Yeah.

The sister here said, he told us and my parents, listen, I understand you.

I know what you're going through.

And, you know, I'm a father too.

So I, you know, we'll get this all squared away.

And they wanted to protect this

young child, young man.

And so they sold their home in the Dominican Republic to pay Carlos,

pay the legal bills, and they had to pay $15,000 in bail money, too.

Oh, boy.

So the guy, this Omar, eventually pleads guilty to assault and is sentenced to to six years maximum in prison.

Okay.

Carlos makes the family an offer.

He tells them he can get their $15,000 of bail money returned to them more quickly because of his connections.

Okay.

That's, you know what I mean?

That's ridiculous.

They still, he said, since they still owe him $5,000, he signed a note saying that he'd take the balance out of the $15,000 in bail money and return $10,000 to them.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

They said, I signed over the paperwork to him to take his balance.

And he said, I'll contact you within a week.

But at the end of the week, and the next week and the next week, there's still no word because he has all $15,000 now.

So months go by.

They can't contact him.

He won't return their calls.

And they thought their money was lost completely.

They said,

the sister said, I'm like, we got stiffed.

We got robbed.

Yeah.

And they're not alone.

Really?

Rod Bratton, a retired deputy chief counsel for the New York Supreme Court Disciplinary Committee,

takes all these angry

grievances and shit from angry clients and said that he's heard more than a dozen similar complaints from people about Carlos.

He said, I think what happened here is that Mr.

Perez-Alivo runs a large mill type of practice, and his mill keeps churning out clients in a place like New York City.

It processes more than 1,000 criminal arraignments per day, meaning the city, not the, not the, I would think, not the Carlos himself.

A thousand?

I guess.

Perez Olivo apparently believes in quantity over quality.

So he's a discount place, but he's not a discount place.

No.

He just takes in a lot of shit.

So,

yeah, they said that he assumed that he could just do whatever he wanted to these people.

He has some past bungled murder cases as well.

And he's got some enemies.

Elio Cruz is one of these enemies.

Elio here was accused of killing his wife's lover in a New York City subway station.

And from this, from the trial, they said one of those he lost here was the murder trial of Elio Cruz, a room service waiter who was convicted of killing his wife's lover in a Chelsea subway station.

God damn.

Anytime I go to room service and we're on the road, I'm going to say, I didn't fuck your wife as soon as I opened the door.

Just in case.

You never know.

In In a note to the judge, a juror at the trial complained that Carlos had bungled the defense.

Really?

The juror was like, that lawyer did a bad fucking job.

Yeah.

The juror, a woman named Ann Holland, said she was, quote, appalled at the inept performance of the defense attorney who appeared to be totally unprepared.

In his submission to the jury, he said that he had forgotten what he wanted to say.

I forgot what I was going to say.

He got up there and he's like, my client is innocent because

I forgot.

But

believe me,

look at him.

I had this whole thing to say to you.

Look at this guy.

For the life of me, remember.

Face of an angel, right?

Why he's a great guy.

Great guy.

That's wild.

He said, quote, there is a lot of other things that I honestly thought of that I can't think of right now.

That helps not at all.

Okay,

we're comics.

Imagine you go, and a comedian, there's a lot of things you can compare it to.

A comedian and a lawyer giving an opening or closing statement.

Yeah, it's a diatribe.

It's a monologue.

It's very, you have to keep their attention.

You got to bring them up, bring them down.

You can't do, you know, you got to know where to ebb and where to flow.

Yeah.

You got to do all that kind of shit.

At no point in your set can you say, there's honestly a lot of other shit that I really wanted to tell you guys.

A lot of funny jokes that I had, but I forgot them.

That doesn't help at all.

I'm so funny, I forgot.

Every once in a while, if it's a new joke, you can forget your punchline, get to it and go, I forgot what the fucking joke is.

And you'll get a laugh out of that.

Once.

Once.

Once.

Can't be in your special.

That's it.

Nope.

You get away with that once per show.

They go, that's hilarious.

Then you go on to another joke.

You do it really well and they laugh and they're fine.

Honestly, there was a lot I had to tell you.

I thought of to tell you, and I can't think of it right now.

I can't think of it right now.

I'm not sure.

Anyway, he's not guilty.

I'm going to obviously see you in a minute.

The juror's note asked the judge, can nothing be done about lawyers like this?

He should not be allowed to practice.

Yeah.

Wow.

A relative of Elio Cruz said, when you do bad things, bad things happen to you.

Oh, I don't like that.

That's not good.

But they also, the Cruz family complained to the New York Bar Association that Carlos had refused to return part of the unused $33,000 retainer.

Oh.

Cruz's sister said Carlos had promised that he would hire a private detective to investigate the case for $5,000, but never did and just pocketed the money.

It's a pattern.

Oh, boy.

Anthony Stevens.

Yeah.

He found Carlos to represent him.

He said that Carlos did very little to help him during his trial, cross-examined only one witness.

Oh.

And even when told by Stevens that witnesses were misstating the facts, Carlos, again, never hired a private investigator that like he was paid to do.

So this Anthony Stevens was like shocked by this.

He said, what the fuck, basically, Carlos, what's your fucking problem?

And Carlos said, my Lyme disease is making me not as good as I am usually.

Blame Lyme Connecticut.

I'm usually better, but sorry.

Deers.

Yeah.

You ever seen deers running around?

They got things on them.

Field mice and shit.

Yeah.

Deer,

essentially, there's a straight line fucking two degrees of separation between a deer and you going to prison for a long time it's not it's real straight right through it it's so close it's not abstract at all it's not so close you may as well have been bit by a deer by a deer tick it's the same thing really deer ticks cause prison time i don't know if you knew that but it's true it's one of the side effects of lyme disease

So

later on, this client wrote to the appellate division that Carlos stated that he did things he shouldn't have done and didn't do things that he should have done in my case as a legal agent, such as file motions, have evidentiary hearings, investigations, cross-examine witnesses, call witnesses, and object to things that happened to my judge.

You know, lawyer shit.

Be a lawyer.

All the shit that lawyers do.

What else is there?

You know?

God damn it.

Carlos's summation before the jury lasted five minutes.

Oh.

And Anthony Stevens was found guilty of burglary in the second degree.

The judge sentenced him to 15 years.

Ooh.

Yeah.

So the sentence, he was shocked by it.

He said, Christ, I met murderers that have less, do less time than that.

And Carlos said, you know what, though?

Slam dunk on appeal.

Yeah.

How long is this?

I'll give you one for free.

I would say.

He said that when he asked Carlos how he could fuck this case up,

Carlos apologized and said, I promise I'll win on appeal.

The appeal was never even filed.

And none of the $75,000 retainer was ever retained.

He got $75,000 to go into court and go, it's tough to say, but I don't know what I'm saying.

And then walk away.

$75,000?

That's fucking wild.

So then it gets worse, though.

It gets fucking worse because he's like, well, you lost some money, but you need to get that back, don't you?

Yeah.

He's total pyramid scheme now.

In a visit to jail from his wife here, this client learned that Carlos had talked his wife into this is the client who's sitting in jail mad at him.

Carlos talked his wife on the outside into investing $40,000 into his Venezuelan oil venture.

Oh, my God.

He won't even give you the retainer he owes you back.

You want to buy some oil?

Wow.

That money came from the sale of their house in Queens, which had been put in escrow in Carlos' name for legal reasons, quote unquote.

Carlos told her not to tell

him in jail about the investment so they could, quote, surprise him when they made a whole bunch of money down the road.

It'll be fun to spring that on him.

So the guy in jail,

a imprisoned burglar, still not dumb enough to fall for this,

he said, well, where's the stock certificates for the oil deal?

And his wife said, oh, don't worry, Carlos is holding on to them for safekeeping.

So when he asked about the money that his wife invested to Carlos, Carlos said the investment was still secure, but there were, quote, little problems with his wife and his job as an attorney that are causing delays.

You know, I'm under investigation by every agency there is.

But he said it'll all be resolved within a year.

You guys are going to make a ton of money.

Carlos kept in touch with this guy up until August of 2006 when Carlos stopped taking his phone calls and didn't answer any letters.

With $205,000 of this guy's money gone, his house sold and everything else.

Oh my God.

This is wild.

So this guy in jail did a search of Carlos's oil venture company, P-U-P-Vig U and C-I-A, and the company didn't exist.

What?

He just made up a company and said, give me money and I got all this.

Carlos.

So then the sister got, or the wife, I'm sorry, who invested the money, got in touch with another lawyer who told her that she could only get the money back if Carlos renders it to her voluntarily or if she sues him and wins.

Yeah.

That's the way you get your money back.

I can't write a letter to the guy and he'll give you your money back, basically.

So here's what the review board, the ethics committee, all these different, whatever, the legal people that give you your license say.

They have, here's the charges against him.

Okay, major misconduct by client case saying that

a convicted client facing deportation paid him $20,500 and he filed a deficient motion for new trial, failed to perfect the appeal, which was then dismissed, misled the client that the appeal was frivolous, even though it was dismissed due to his own failure, kept the fees despite requests for refunds.

He also, the violations are misrepresentation, neglect, failing to return unearned fees, conduct reflecting poor fitness to practice law.

Okay.

Count 10 is that he took $10,000 bail money from defendant's sister to post-bail, not licensed in Pennsylvania where the case was, later refused to return bail funds.

They saw this as a,

I guess apparently,

they went to some mediator who saw it as a fee dispute and not fraud, but sustained failure to render an accounting.

He took $15,000 in bail money that we told you about, had a non-refundable retainer of $10,000 with somebody.

The case was dismissed due to conflict of interest, so he never even got to do it.

And he kept the money.

And he claimed he earned the full fee via conflict of interest.

general misconduct misrepresentation conversion unethical fee handling poor fitness to practice law aggravating factors our prior discipline in 1998 for similar conduct forfeited his puerto rican law license in 2000 for similar allegations they also said no remorse only offered restitution if ordered by court

no character witnesses at hearing only letters so no one would come talk for him either court's conclusion they confirm all findings and sanction recommendation.

Stressed that an intentional conversion almost always results in disbarment.

They found no mitigating factors.

He represented himself in the disciplinary proceedings, which are not smart, and

presented some judges who said he was a competent lawyer.

He's disbarred.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's fucking disbarred.

You can't take that kind of money off people.

Absolutely not.

So hard times coming for Carlos.

Hard times, Rick Flapp.

Yeah.

Hard times coming for Carlos here.

He went from, I mean, the spigot is off now.

Off.

No money.

You can't do anything.

You're not a lawyer.

You robbed people.

You're an unemployed former, whatever.

I mean, you might as well have worked at fucking Jack in the Box.

You have the same amount.

This part is no good.

It doesn't matter.

You're a person with no experience in your 50s of any job that anything.

All you've done is something you're not allowed to do.

So his career is over.

Bills aren't getting paid.

No.

They have a high mortgage.

They have all this shit.

His wife makes $21,000 a year, so she can't pay the fucking bills either.

So it's rough.

That's when his finances come under scrutiny.

Investigators will find out later that Carlos is juggling debts.

He's defaulting on loans and he's taking out many insurance policies on Peggy.

Oh.

Yeah.

So he's doing a lot of weird shit lately here.

Due to their finances show they have a ton of debts.

Mortgage payments are behind.

Credit card bills stacked stacked up.

They're living well beyond their means.

And I mean, even if you lose your job and everything, you got a couple bucks in savings and you probably have a bunch of credit cards with decent limits.

So you can live for three months in your normal lifestyle.

It's going to hurt.

And then you're fucked.

And then you have nothing and you owe the credit card companies.

Everything.

Everything.

And you're screwed.

Yeah.

But if you wanted to, you can go, let's pretend it does not happen for three months.

And then you're pretending everything's fine.

Yep.

So he is now talking about having to file bankruptcy.

But they're going to try to have a nice night on Saturday, November 18th, 2006.

Remember that day?

Montero at the hospital?

Okay, that day, 8.30 a.m., Carlos gets up and he thought they were going to go power walking, but Peggy decided to

skip the walk

and,

you know, whatever.

So Carlos drove over to the health club and had a workout instead.

Okay.

So he said, all right, you want to go for a walk?

I'll go grab a little workout here.

Walk on the treadmill.

He's always been active in sports.

He likes to play basketball, pickup ball.

He's in his 50s, too.

He still likes to play pickup ball, half court, maybe.

I don't know.

So, you know, he's doing all that.

He feels good after the workout.

He stops at D'Agostino's, which is like a kind of a fancy supermarket.

No, it's a supermarket here.

Dagostino's?

Dagostino's, yeah.

It's a little supermarket-type joint.

They have like a lot of produce and shit they're very proud of there.

At about 12:30, picks up a frozen pizza for him and his wife to share early on.

Yeah.

Frozen pizza.

All right.

Which, hey, that's all right.

I love a frozen pizza.

Yeah, I mean, if you're, and also,

he better develop a taste for this.

No, shit.

And not like Red Baron or anything.

You better develop a taste for great value

that we talked about on your stupid opinion.

It's called pepperoni pizza.

By the way,

a little suggestion from a guy who loves pizza.

The DeFara's brand.

DeFara's is that little Brooklyn pizza plate that's been around forever.

Had the old guy who did it with his hands.

They do a frozen pizza.

I don't know if it's all over the country, but it's fucking delicious.

What was that other one that we got?

Man, it's good.

What was that?

Frozen?

Yeah.

It was like, it was good.

I bought them out on the East Coast somewhere.

Where did I get the?

Elios.

That was it.

Yeah,

they're like crappy nostalgic pizzas.

They're good.

I love them.

They're such good nostalgic shit.

Yeah.

I like it.

You feel 11 when you eat those.

You're like,

I'm 11 years old.

I got the Nintendo fired up.

And I've got right now the worst heartburn.

This is good.

I'm going to have such heartburn.

It is on tonight, baby.

Come on, Mario.

Show me what you got.

So let's save some princesses here.

So they do that.

I guess they wanted to get a little bit something in their stomach because they're going to go to Manhattan for dinner that night.

But they, you know, get something going on.

So by 3.30, they're ready to go.

They're both

nicely dressed and everything else.

They get in the car.

They get to the theater at about four o'clock.

They see a show.

So, yeah,

and she likes coming into the city and all that kind of thing.

And

she likes this.

This is fun.

So

then they're going,

they like Chelsea.

That's

23rd Street, that area.

So they're in that area hanging out here, Lower West Side,

and they're looking in the little stores and just kind of farting around, window shopping and eating and

trying to figure out where to go for dinner.

It's 6.20.

It's still a little early for dinner, they thought maybe.

So, you know, let's window shop.

So they walk around and they stroll along Fifth Avenue and Peggy looks at some shops and all this type of shit.

They stop at a Cuban restaurant

called Sevilla.

And he used to go there when he went to Colombia.

But it's too busy.

There's a long line of people out the door waiting for a table.

No, thank you.

So they find out and go to another place.

It's also too busy.

Okay.

Now, this is also a rough time at night.

Yeah.

You're in the sixes here.

So Carlos gets a cab.

They go back to where their car is parked.

And they decide to go to a French restaurant that they both had been to before.

They took the car, drove into a parking garage near the restaurant, which probably I'm sure was $40

to park for two hours.

And they probably put it like eight stories high on one of those fucking lift things.

So they go to, what is it, Frère Jacques?

That is French, right?

It is.

Located on 37th Street.

They get there about 8 p.m.

and they're sat right down.

They start ordering a bunch of Cosmos.

Oh.

Drinking some Cosmos.

God dang.

Both of them.

They're going hard.

It's their favorite cocktail.

They love it.

So, yeah, they dig it.

They're popping Cosmos like crazy, chit-chatting.

They leave the restaurant about 9.30.

Carlos gets a call from his friend, Frank Farrillo.

Remember Frank?

Hey, Frankie.

Go down to Venezuela.

Forget about that broad.

Oh, you like it?

Maybe you should talk to her.

I don't know.

Frankie.

Frank was bored and calling friends,

sitting around seeing what they're up to.

So they spoke for a minute.

We'll talk about that call.

Peggy got on the phone to say hi and said, yeah, we should all get together again.

Yeah, I haven't seen you in so long.

Peggy then called her daughter, Alicia, to let her know they were on their way home.

They bullshitted a little bit.

That was that.

Peggy told her daughter that, you know, love you, bye.

That was that.

So the Frank phone call, Frank was home alone and bored, calling friends.

It was 9 o'clock.

He got the voicemail on their cell phone and left a message to call him.

And then they called him back and got a message and they, whatever.

So they finally got 10 o'clock or so.

They started talking.

Wow.

That Peggy had answered the phone.

She said they were on their way back home from an evening in the city.

They had dinner, got a movie, and did some window shopping.

Frank said Carlos didn't like to talk on the phone while he drove.

So me and Peggy spoke.

She was in a good mood, and I could tell she had a few drinks.

She was happy.

We just chit-chatted, and that was it.

Nothing out of the ordinary.

A couple of phone calls.

They continue on.

Before getting to the Henry-Hudson Bridge, Carlos stops at a gas station he knew in the Inwood section of northern Manhattan.

There was a bunch of cars backed up at the pumps, so he looked at his gas tank and went, I got enough.

Fuck it.

We're going home.

So, and the gas is cheaper there anyway, so whatever.

So they end up doing this.

They get back on the parkway.

They head for home.

Instead of just taking the Sawmill River Parkway to Chappaqua, he takes the Taconic.

It's a longer route, but it doesn't have traffic lights like the Sawmill.

I know exactly.

Coming home from Tarrytown, I was like, all right, which way are we going?

And if you go like

no, no, no.

It's all on the one side.

But it's

all close to the river?

It's all close to the river.

Yeah, we're all close to the river here, or some body of water.

So he said also there's an all-night Exxon gas station just off the Taconic in Millwood, which is a section of Newcastle.

So, and that's the same town Chapiqua's snuggled into here.

Carlos goes there all the time.

He said, lowest gas prices in town, babe.

Really?

We're going.

He knows where they are.

So about 30 minutes later, he exits the parkway at the Route 109A exit.

Yeah.

And not 109, 100 slash 9A.

Driving north along Route 100, Carlos looked over and he said that Peggy had fallen asleep.

Great.

So the road is going next to it.

It's kind of next to the Taconic parallel.

It's dark.

He said he didn't see another car on the road.

They were heading toward the Exxon station.

Then about 11 p.m.,

they're making their way home on the Saw Mill River Parkway here.

And

he said at that point, a car suddenly appeared

and forced them to the shoulder.

near the exit for Reader's Digest Road,

which is a it's a it's a condensed road.

Yeah.

It's very, very slim.

It's not wide.

It's more, you know.

Real narrow.

Yeah, it's abridged, I would call it.

So you have to be old enough to know what a Reader's Digest is to

know that joke at all.

But

I don't think I've ever read a read.

That was like something my grandmother

had that at their house.

She still has them.

Like nobody, even our parents' age had Reader's Digest.

Do they even still make it?

Because if they do, my grandma still has it.

Beats the shit out.

I'm sure they make it, but in like large print magazine form on the rack, and it's got like, you know, just like

Florence Henderson on the cover every fucking week, like still looking hot at 86 or whatever.

So,

yeah.

So it's at this point that somebody cut them off.

And he said before he knew it, there was a man that jumps into the SUV, into the back seat.

In their car.

With a gun.

And he said that he tried to fight.

He reached up and tried to fight the guy

right away.

And he said, before before he knew it he heard a gunshot and then another gunshot and he was shot in the stomach and his wife was shot in the head Okay, and the guy Jumped out of the car got back in his vehicle and took off Okay,

so Carlos is like what a night.

It's what a night.

What a story Mark.

Yeah,

so Carlos Call gets fucking puts it in gear and guns it.

Yeah.

He's gonna go toward northern northern Westchester Hospital.

Okay.

He calls 911 despite his gunshot wound to the abdomen.

He's shot in the trunk here.

It's a gut shot.

And

so anyway, into the 911 call, he's saying, he said, that's why I'm taking my wife to the, and his voice is hysterical.

He's going nuts.

He said, I'm telling you, I'm going to the hospital.

I think she may be.

I think.

And then there's a lot of gasping.

They say, okay, where?

And the 911, because there's a police officer and a 911 operator on the line because the cop is trying to find them, and the police officer is trying, the 911 operator is trying to get these two together.

So the 911 operator says, Are you on the Taconic State Parkway?

And the police officer says, Where?

Carlos said, I'm on 133.

I'm going toward Mount Kisco.

I'm towards northern Westchester, but you just try to get a police car and find the guy, blue jeans.

Oh, you know, find a guy in blue jeans while he's driving.

Don't describe the car, describe his jeans, because that's

a man driving a car.

The guy, the operator says, okay, all right, so you're at 133.

Yeah.

And Carlos says, late, late, late, late vehicle, car, late vehicle.

Like late model, I guess.

It's a newer car.

The cop says, all right, listen, are you on 133?

We don't care about that.

Fuck the car.

Where are you?

Bleeding people.

We're trying to find you.

We'll figure the rest out later.

So you're on 130, 133, heading toward 100.

And he says, yeah, I just, I just passed, I just passed seven bridges, seven bridges.

I just passed seven bridges.

So they said, all right, seven bridges road on 133.

He says, yes, yes, I'm on my way.

I love her.

Okay.

Okay.

The cop says, look, I need you to come in.

Then he says, I don't want you to get into an accident.

I need you to stop somewhere where the police can get to you.

Don't be driving with a gunshot wound.

So Carlos says, she got shot.

And he's crying.

And during all this, he's yelling, crying, hysterical.

911 operator says, okay, okay.

The cop says, okay, take it easy.

Which if you're not from New York and you don't understand, take it easy is the number one used term around here.

Take it easy.

It can mean anything.

It's anything.

It really is.

It's my father's favorite term.

Like my brother's kids are running around cutting up and he'll just go, take it easy.

Jesus Christ, take it easy.

Like that's, it's, it's everything from that.

If a guy pulls a gun on you, you go, take it easy.

It's, it's everything from a kid to a gun to anything is taking it.

And then when a parting word, like, I'll see see you next time.

Yeah, take it easy.

Take it easy.

Yeah, there's, it's, you have no idea, though.

It's so.

Sarah fucking noticed that and she loves it.

She's like, I use it all the time now.

I feel like a real New Yorker.

It's good because she heard my father saying it all the time.

Take it easy.

He always said, with hands here.

Oh,

take it easy.

So

they go, okay, take it easy.

She got shot.

You say,

your wife's dying next to you and you're shot.

Cops responsible.

Take it easy, all right?

Calm down.

Take it easy.

Take it easy.

All right.

You got shot.

Take it.

Take it easy.

Take shit easy, man.

Jesus Christ.

He says, I can't stop.

I can't stop.

I've got to get my wife to the hospital.

I can't stop.

I can't stop.

I'm all right.

I'll get there.

Don't worry.

Just

try

and get a patrol car and see if you can get this guy.

Please, please, please.

I'm more worried about see if you can get my wife help.

Yeah.

I don't care.

We'll deal with that later.

So the cop said, okay, what kind of car is it?

Because they're like, we're not going to, he won't get past it.

So we have to address this before we'll move on.

So,

yeah,

so they talk about that.

He says, then the cop says, are you injured too?

Yeah.

And he says, yeah, yeah.

Shot.

Yes, yes, yes.

I'm shot.

I'm fine.

I'm fine.

I'm shot on the side and I'm fine.

And the cop says, sir, I believe.

He's about to say, take it easy.

Instead, Carlos said, I got shot also.

See, I'm going to need some medical attention.

Please put a hold now.

Please,

you've got to get to the son of a bitch.

The cop says, listen to me, listen to me.

I've got to take care of you first, both of you.

He says, forget about me, my wife.

My wife is important.

Not me, not me, not me.

And he says, voice fading.

She's like screaming.

The cop says, sir, I...

Take it easy.

Take it easy.

All right.

So then Carlos, and it's described as high-pitched and crying.

I'm not pulling over.

I'm not pulling over.

I'm not pulling over.

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not pulling over.

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not pulling over.

And then in the transcript, it says, gibberish cries, repetition.

It says it a lot.

Yeah, gibberish cries, whatever that is.

So that's pretty fucking funny.

And then they go, okay, well, what kind of car again, if that's what you want to talk about?

He said, he, he,

he had, the guy had a blue, a late model Toyota,

a Hispanic guy,

a Hispanic guy.

Cop said, did you get a license plate number?

And Carlos said, hell, no, no, not hell, no, but hell, no.

The cop said,

where did this shooting take place?

And he said,

he put me off the road.

I was still

trying to get gasoline.

They said, what happened?

Where did this happen?

This happened at the gas station.

And he says, no, no, I was going to the gas station.

I was going to the gas station.

I was going to the gas station

before the Taconic.

The cop says, wait, what?

What gas station do you remember?

And he says, I don't know.

I don't.

Oh, ow.

Shit fuck.

Take it easy.

Shit fuck.

Shit fuck.

Okay.

The officer says, where are you now?

He says, I don't know.

I'm going toward Mount Kisco.

I'm going toward Mount Kisko.

I said, are you going to northern Westchester in Mount Kisco?

He says, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Cop says, okay.

We'll see you there.

Carlos says, if I can make it, if I make it, I'm going to try and make it.

I'm going to try to make it.

The cop says, what, what?

What road are you on now?

Where are you now?

And he says, I'm, and then he starts crying and shouting, and you can't hear it.

It's inaudible.

You can't hear it.

It's a lot of shit fuck.

Yeah, everybody's over.

It says over talking, all parties inaudible.

Oh, boy.

Cop says, I need you to pull over.

You have to pull over.

He says, sir,

I'm not pulling over.

I'm not.

I'm not.

And he keeps doing that fucking thing.

And where are you now?

They said, we can get an ambulance to you faster than you driving.

You might get into another accident.

And they said, the cop says, sir, we need to know where you are because if you pass out and don't make it.

And he says, got to get, got to get my wife.

Got to, got to get my wife.

And they say, pull over now.

Pull over right now.

And the cop says, I need you to pull over.

I need to get the emergency medics to get you to the hospital.

Where are you now?

And he says, I'm almost there.

I'm almost there.

I'm almost there.

I'm almost there.

I'm almost there.

And then he starts crying.

And they said, what kind of car are you in, sir?

What road are you on?

And he says, I'm, I'm, I'm almost in Mount.

I'm almost in Mount Kiss.

I'm almost in, ow, shit.

Oh, I'm almost in Mount Kisco.

I'm almost in Mount.

And they said, you're almost in Mount Kisco.

You're still on 133.

And you just hear inaudible cries from him.

What kind of car are you driving?

Hello, hello.

And his phone cut out.

That was how he dropped the call.

So, very dramatic 911 calls.

Incredibly, yeah.

He gets to the hospital, pulls up,

nearly destroys the fucking front.

Front entrance

next,

climbs out, stumbles in.

I'm my wife, and bleeding, and they stick the fucking intravenous anti-anxiety medication.

Shut him in the neck, yeah.

You all that like from the 911 call.

He's doing that in the emergency room.

They're like, stick him with something.

So, poop, he's in there.

Whoa.

Um, now medical workers have to pull Peggy through the passenger side window because this dip shit

wedged the SUV between a bar and a pillar near the emergency room entrance.

So they couldn't get her.

They had to pull her out of the window to get her out.

What the fuck?

And she's shot.

And she's shot in the head.

Oh, for Christ's sake.

So an ultrasound technician said she got into the SUV after a hospital worker asked, yelled for someone to move this fucking thing away.

No one can get into the hospital.

But moments later, later, another hospital employee ran outside, waving his arms and said, get out of the car.

It's a crime scene.

Yeah.

Get the fuck, don't move the car, you fucking idiot.

Doesn't matter if it's in an inconvenient location.

There's a protocol.

It's very inconvenient, but there's a dead body.

And I'm sure there's a second entrance.

Yeah.

It's a hospital.

I doubt there's one entrance for fire purposes and all.

So Peggy is not in good shape.

He's shot in the abdomen and it doesn't appear to be life-threatening.

And we'll find out it's very not life-threatening.

Oh, really?

Like, it's pretty much a graze.

Oh,

and she is shot right in the head.

And it is not good.

She's rushed in.

Um, while this is happening, he's saying that it's my fault, it's my fault.

I shouldn't have fought with him.

I should have just given him what he wanted, or if he didn't even ask for it, I just grabbed the guy.

So, a detective arrives here and pulls into the emergency entrance.

Notices the gray SUV in the fucking door there, all four doors wide open at this point.

Here, it is 12:50 a.m.

and there's a detective guarding the vehicle, which is a crime scene here.

Now, inside, Carlos is flat on his back with his arms folded over his chest, over his stomach like he's in a coffin, eyes fixed on the ceiling.

And he said, that's how they found him.

They thought the chief Breen here thought at first he was asleep on the gurney, but then he saw he was wide awake.

So he said he was immediately struck by the calm Carlos had at this point.

Now he's completely calm.

He went from I'm, I'm, I'm, to, I'm good.

Well, they did it.

They told me to take it easy.

Yeah, they told me to take it easy.

Then they forced me to take it easy.

They injected me with take it easy drugs.

They hit me with some easy.

You go, oh, and they stick.

You go, what are you injecting into me?

Take it easy.

That's what I'm injecting into you.

A little bit of that.

So

now that's the thing.

The calmness is literally intravenously into him here.

So cop walked up, introduced himself.

He asked if Carlos had been shot and how bad it was.

He said the wound wasn't that bad, but he said over and over, it's all my fault.

It's all my fault.

You know, Carlos said he had driven himself to the hospital.

The chief here said that he never asked about his wife's condition or even mentioned her in the conversation at all.

That's weird.

So the chief finally said, I promise you, Mr.

Perez, we're going to find out who did this to you and your wife.

And Carlos said, you get him.

Okay.

You go out and you get him.

Yeah, we will.

So the cops talk to Carlos once he's put together.

They said, quote, he was lucid and calm, as calm as you could expect to be in a situation like this where you and your wife had just been shot.

He was able to answer some questions I had for him.

He said he was searching for a gas station when he got ambushed.

And meanwhile, he frequents this gas station, so I don't know what he needs to search for.

Yeah, he should, I know where all my regular gas stations are.

So he described the gunman as Hispanic and even offered to help create a sketch,

everything else.

Peggy, she was placed on life support

and declared brain dead the next day.

Oh, no.

Over the next couple days, they had to make the decision to remove her from life support,

which is obviously hard.

That's ugly.

That poor Peggy.

She didn't know anything was coming.

She heard the door open, turned around, shot in the head.

That's what Carlos said.

She never knew it was coming.

Wow.

Barely, barely knew.

The police statement here, they said that this is the statement that the cops gave to the press.

Quote, Mr.

Olivo attempted to wrestle the gun from him, and there were several shots fired.

The gunman fled, according to the police, and they said that Carlos thought that two other people may have been riding with the gunman.

And more shots were fired because they were hit with two, but then there's one in the headrest and there's something about the ceiling line or two.

So we think as many as four shots may have been fired.

Shit.

Now, Carlitos, he gets to the hospital the next morning.

He thought his dad got drunk and wrecked the car.

He thought that was because his dad got drunk at the going out to dinner.

You know, when your dad drives drunk.

So he said he found his father and learned his mother had been shot.

He said he lost it and he cried and all that.

Now, reporters swarm the house.

Really?

Yes.

It's one old house lane is the name of it.

the name of the address of the house here.

It's at the bottom of the cul-de-sac here.

And they said no one answered the door at the house, but two men emerged from the rear and told reporters to leave because they were trespassing.

One man identified himself as a, quote, family spokesman.

I'm the family spokesman.

I'm going to kick your ass for the family.

I'm told you're trespassing.

Yeah, he said all news would come from the hospital.

Nobody should come to the house.

So now their landlord described them as a very nice couple, great folks, sweet people.

So the neighbors said that they kept to themselves.

They didn't really have any friends on the block or anything like that.

But people are shocked that this could happen in leafy Chappaqua here.

One of the neighbors who has a son in the ninth grade in this school district said the shootings didn't seem random.

No.

She was surprised they occurred on Route 100, just south of 133, which is a busy road during the day.

She said it's really surprising that was in that spot.

The whole thing feels very deliberate.

Another neighbor said the urban problems are finally coming to the country rather than just suburbia.

Big city problems coming way out here.

Jesus Christ.

The last homicide in Newcastle involved a wrongway driver on the Taconic State Parkway in 2003.

Wow.

Which isn't really a murder, murder.

The last shooting came during a botched holdup at the Millwood gas station in 1999, and the victim survived.

So there's not non-existent violence here.

It's just non-existent.

Now, one of the things here that happens is at the, I don't know if it's at the police department or at the hospital, but a reporter confronts Carlos and asked him if he was responsible for his wife's death.

Yeah.

Carlos lunges at him and punches him.

Really?

Yeah.

So Carlos's lawyer wrestles him away and they get into a car and speed off.

Fucking

Papini style, like when she got arraigned that time.

She made her run for it.

She did.

That was wild.

She's just running down the street.

Telling her.

Screaming like a band.

It's a crazy cry.

Wow.

So then they dispute Carlos's contention that Carlos had directed, because they said, where'd this happen?

And Carlos told them, but then they said, that's not where it happened.

Where you're saying it happened isn't where it happened.

The exact location where the blood droplets and shell casings are found

are farther north than the place that.

that Carlos said.

So they're like, that's weird.

They said, quote, the actual crime scene wasn't that far from the place Carlos said he was pulled over on, but the area that he brought us to was where the lake shore was farther away from the road.

That great distance made it a long throw to the lake.

There was also, because he said something farther away from the lake is where it happened.

There was also a lot of trees shielding a lake.

Lake's important.

Yeah.

Okay.

In the next two weeks, they start road checks, questioning motorists if they've seen anything or if they've seen a Nissan and a guy in Hispanic guy in jeans.

Yeah.

Seen a Hispanic guy in jeans?

Yeah, Nissan.

Lots of them.

Yeah.

I mean, probably.

Yeah.

So Carlos comes forward and says, I know who did this.

You don't even have to do an investigation.

He said, I know in my heart, Elio Cruz is the only guy who did this.

He's capable of it.

He had the money to do it.

He hired one of his cousins or something to come shoot us.

He said that he...

He said that Carlos had been cooperative and responsive and readily agreed to give a DNA swab and expose his wounds so the detectives could photograph it.

So they talked to him.

They wrote a 16-page detail of the whole thing the cops do in their report.

They describe his demeanor as calm and subdued.

They thought that was a little bit weird.

They did think it was strange that his tone of voice changed when he spoke of his source of income.

They said Carlos had become evasive and offered up no information on the matter.

He's got to explain why he's been disbarred at that point.

There's not a lot of money coming in.

We'll just leave it there.

Huh.

So later that morning,

Carlos, here they also do a gunshot primer swab and all that and GSR shit.

Yeah.

So the test results are negative for the right hand, but they didn't swab the left hand because it was bandaged.

So that's interesting.

Carlos also agreed to help do a sketch to come up with the portrait of the gunman here.

And this time he describes the gunman as, quote, white, but not Irish white.

What kind of white?

Not white white.

Just white the color.

You know, white, but not like that far white.

Yeah.

Maybe

Spanish-speaking white.

No, no, not that.

We're talking, you know,

France, Germany, not, not, you know, not the Northern Islands.

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Again, here,

he said Hispanic, Hispanic, Hispanic, and now it's white, but not Irish, white.

Yeah, it's strange here.

I mean, I didn't smell booze on his breath or see freckles, so I'm assuming he wasn't Irish, but.

Could have been a rosary.

Could have been anything.

You never know.

So also, the detectives took the clothes he was wearing that night.

They put out, they do the sketch, which there's a picture in the newspaper of him holding up the sketch.

This is the guy.

And Carlos said, on a scale of one to 10, I'd give it a nine.

What, the sketch?

Accurate.

Yeah.

Perfect.

Yeah.

So, a few days after the shooting, remember that

he told them a crime scene.

They found it actually a little further up north up the road with a lake next to it.

Yeah.

So they were like, that's suspicious.

Let's go check that lake out.

In that lake,

they find a Walther PPP, PPK semi-automatic pistol

here, which is, by the way, the same caliber that they were shot with.

Uh-oh.

Yeah.

So that's not good.

No.

At all.

They don't know who belongs to yet, though.

Other clues here, no witnesses.

No 911 call from the scene, only from the road

here.

So there's none of that, just him cruising away.

Physical evidence isn't helping.

They found no skid marks, no broken glass, no signs of a struggle in the car.

The bullet path into Peggy's skull didn't really match the trajectory one would expect from a shooter leaning in from the outside of the vehicle.

Because I guess he hopped out and then shot him from the outside.

So, also,

Carlos changed clothes before emergency services.

Somehow, he got his clothes changed in there, which is strange.

I don't know how that happens.

I get you might have a shirt in the back of your car, but is this the time to change, really?

I don't think so.

So, pretty soon after this all happens, Carlos tries to collect, he puts in to collect a $467,000 life insurance policy, but was refused because the police said he's still a suspect.

Nothing is solved.

Everybody's a suspect.

So the Hartford Insurance Company asked the court to hold the money and decide who should get it.

They said, should he ever be convicted of an intentional homicide, he couldn't receive the funds, but otherwise they're his.

So they said at that point, it would be split amongst the kids.

But, you know, that's way down the road here.

The company there said that,

or I'm sorry, his lawyer said, we've been pushing the insurance company to do this as a first step toward collecting the funds because the police department and the district attorney refused to rule out anyone in an ongoing investigation.

So the insurance company is helpless.

But they also found out that.

This wasn't even the only insurance policy he had on her.

And he reportedly increased coverage amounts incrementally in the months leading up to this.

Oh.

Yeah.

Every month raising it.

A little bit here and there.

Then they found out, holy shit, does he have a lot of affairs?

What?

Oh, yeah.

Oh,

yeah.

He had a 10-year affair with a married woman from Georgia.

Wow.

State, not country.

Yeah.

He also patronized, quote, escort service girls.

What is happening?

He was, wow, bringing home some stank on his hangdown.

That's not good.

Why would he do that?

What are you doing?

You can't do that.

And he said he had other, quote, small affairs.

Oh, my word.

Because they were like, we got to to talk to you about everything now.

We got your phone records.

Who are these people?

Who are these ladies?

Yep.

He said the one affair ended in 2006, early 2006, though, because she wanted to have a child with him, but he had a vasectomy.

So no kids coming.

Well, there's that and no money.

And no money.

He said he wanted to get together with her again, but didn't want to end his marriage.

So, you know, he said he had to end it.

Now.

His defense attorney says, because everyone goes, oh, he's having affairs.

They think that makes him look guilty.

No, no, no, no, no.

His defense attorney, Robert Buckley, has a completely different explanation for why he's having all these affairs.

This is amazing.

This is the second time this is used for something that shouldn't be appropriated to.

Quote, he's a Latin male.

What do you want from me?

Oh, shit.

If we put every man in jail who had an affair, we would have empty apartment houses.

Of course, he can't keep his dick in his pants.

Look at him.

He's Puerto Rican.

He's a handsome Latin man.

Women's going to want to suck him.

What the fuck is that?

He can't do accounting or keep his dick in his pants, obviously.

That's his legal defense.

The Hispanic defense.

If he salsa dances, it's called snake charming.

So

it's 11 days after Peggy is dead here, after the shooting, that Carlos tells detectives all about his affair with a woman named Ileana Santana Poole.

Oh, boy.

Oh, this is fucking crazy.

It's a long affair.

By the way, he sent her flowers two days before the shooting.

Oh, sir.

Two days.

That looks bad here.

He said, what are we going to do?

It was her birthday.

Yeah, I have to.

I have to.

She who sucks the dick gets flowers.

Gets the fucking petals.

That's how it works.

They met in Puerto Rico, Iliana Santana Pool, in 1996 when she was working at a shoe store.

Yeah.

She was 21 years old.

Oh, boy.

He was very much not 21 years old.

He was about 48 years old at that point.

Almost.

Almost.

She, by the way, during this affair, got married to somebody else, moved to suburban Atlanta.

Wow.

They kept having an affair.

Oh, my God.

Like, it never happened.

She was working as an assistant manager at Kohl's.

Really?

Yeah, at a Kohl's department store.

They would do secret vacations together.

Really?

Oh, yeah.

I guess she begged him to have his, she wanted to have his baby, but he said no, no, no,

because,

first of all, he said that the relationship ended 18 months before the killing,

but he still sent her flowers on her birthday.

He said, they said, well, why'd you end it?

He said, the sex had dwindled between us.

Oh, come on.

When your mistress and you don't have the same fucking, you know, acumen together, you really got to just hang it up with it.

You got to break it off.

You got to break it off.

But on November 16th, 2006, he called 1-800 Flowers and had a birthday bouquet sent to her to arrive on her birthday on November 18th, which is the day of the killing.

Yeah.

So he said the affair was over.

Do you send Christmas cards to old girlfriends?

It's not relevant.

That's what his lawyer said.

It's not relevant.

No, I don't.

He said that his credit card statements would show that he sent flowers to her on multiple occasions.

He said he last sent them up for her birthday because it was her birthday.

He also said that he, he had admitted at this point to the cops that he, quote, made a hell of a lot more money than I said on my taxes.

And he asked the detectives, look, guys, can you, quote be discreet about this affair yeah we'll be very it's a murder investigation be discreet discreet who do you want not want to hurt your wife yeah who cares your wife's dead stupid so uh carlos's friend our buddy here farillo here frank farillo he knew that carlos was having an affair he even met ileana poo when she was visiting carlos in new york and um

frank said though he knew carlos would never leave peggy because this one's young and pretty and all that but he's never going to leave Peggy.

Just fun to throw it at.

Hey, he said, quote, all you had to do was see them together to know they'd never separate.

The thing with Ileana was more about sex than anything, you know.

Yeah.

I told him, take it easy, but he didn't want to.

You know what I mean?

He said, yes, they did have some common interests, but nothing he would leave Peggy over.

Nothing like that.

You know, it's nothing, just sex.

Frank was positive the extramarital affair was part of, quote, the Latin thing.

What is going on?

What is happening right now?

What's going on?

Yeah.

Frank remembered Carlos telling him that there was the Latin ideal of the big house, little house, where the man had a wife and a mistress, and how that was normal.

Jesus Christ, that's very Italian, too, I gotta say.

It's all the same.

You're Gumar out there somewhere.

You set up the whole thing.

But Frank said Peggy was loyal.

She had stuck with him when times were a lot tougher.

They were a team and they covered for each other.

How could it have gotten tougher than this?

That's what I mean.

Frank said the thing with Ileana, I think, was that it coincided with Peggy's menopausal-less loss of interest in sex and Carlos's cash flow troubles.

It just added all up.

Ileana was an escape.

Wow.

So the press hears about this, and this is how discreet they are not.

They go to harass an old lady.

Okay.

Knock, knock.

They go to knock on the door.

Her husband, Ileana's husband, Sean, didn't answer the door in their Canton, Georgia home.

The neighbor said she hadn't been home in a long time and this home is for sale.

Her husband had called police when reporters were knocking on his door

and all of that kind of thing.

The neighbor said, Yeah, I think they're moving because they want more yard space for their kids.

No, they won't.

This has nothing to do with outdoor.

They want people to leave her alone.

No.

So

Poole's mother, Mercado Santana, who's 72.

Oh, God.

They called this poor lady.

Yeah.

And she said from her home that her daughter never mentioned Carlos, and she was confused that what you were asking her about.

She said, my daughter's married.

Yeah.

Stop harassing this old lady.

Hey, is your daughter a whore?

Like, this fucking poor old lady doesn't need to know this.

She has no information that's relevant to the...

Hern's your daughter is having an affair with a married man.

What?

I thought she was married.

No, you have a mistake.

She's married to a man.

So that's not an affair because they're married together.

No, no, a different man.

What?

Why are you calling me?

What?

You're ruining my Christmas.

I'm trying to watch the prices right in Spanish.

I'm sorry.

I have to go now.

So

also they find out he lied about money.

He told detectives he had money socked away in Montreal and Venezuela.

What?

He said, I made a hell of a lot more money than I said on my taxes.

Well, you can't do that.

No.

Not at all.

The detectives wrote, he jokingly said that the thing he was disbarred for, he wasn't actually guilty of, but that he had done other things that probably would have gotten him disbarred anyway.

Also,

they're not looking for this.

They haven't been really on a manhunt for this vehicle after the first couple of days.

Well, they don't even know what they're looking for or who

because they're like, it doesn't make any sense.

They said he's...

calm and professional and not doesn't seem like a distraught husband who just was next to his wife while she was shot in the head.

Right.

Had her fucking blood on him.

Forensic examiners sweep the SUV, find no physical evidence of a third person in the vehicle.

No foreign fingerprints, no sign of forced entry, no foreign DNA, not even a shoe print.

Really?

Yeah.

It was as though he floated in through the window and then out through the sunroof.

He was shooting and took off.

Shooting.

Also, cell phone records.

Carlos's timeline didn't sync with the...

digital shit here.

He had time gaps in his story, unanswered calls, no attempt to dial 911 until much later than expected.

That's a little odd.

And then the gun stuff.

Okay.

Carlos' wound was superficial.

Yeah.

And the medical examiner thinks possibly self-inflicted.

Oh.

So they said it was a clean wound, non-life-threatening, unlike the one to Peggy, obviously.

The trajectory and location of his wound made them suspicious that it was staged

like this, basically across it.

Right across his own belly.

Yeah, they said it wasn't consistent with a chaotic struggle in a moving car.

Right.

So the ballistics also said the bullet that killed Peggy was fired from close range inside the car.

Okay.

So, yeah, the trajectory and distance indicated the shooter was seated very near her.

This contradicted Carlos' account of a gunman reaching in from the outside of the vehicle to do this.

Even the angle of the shot, right to left, slightly downward, pointed to someone in the driver's seat, not outside the car.

They also have a GSR expert here and said that residue is usually found on anything within a a few feet of the muzzle of the gun.

They said the basically the highest count they found on Carlos was on his white polo shirt cuff

down here by his hand.

The gun, by the way, they figure out it takes a long time to figure out whose gun this is.

Whose is it?

Because it's an old gun and it has different serial numbers in different parts.

Oh.

It's been somebody along the way.

Somebody changed the barrel.

Yeah.

Yeah, fixed it, did something else.

So it's very hard to figure it out.

But they figure out that the gun belongs to Carlos.

It's Carlos' own wife.

It's Carlos.

But he said it had been stolen from the house.

Oh, no.

Yeah.

So somebody stole it and then found you on the Taconic?

Wow.

That's how you fuck somebody.

I want you to kill his wife, but frame him for it.

That's what I want.

Find him on the Taconic with his own gun.

And shoot him, too.

But not kill him.

I want him to suffer, but shoot him a little bit.

You know how to do it, right?

Get him with the burn.

Wow.

The casing casing was not found in the car, also.

It was found outside the car.

So if someone stuck a gun in the car, the casing is not going to shoot out of the car.

Rarely, yeah.

That'd be tough.

The gun is a pre-World War II Walther PPK.

Wow.

Yeah,

that's interesting.

And also, several people came forward and said that they wanted to buy it, and Carlos had refused to sell it

in the months before the slaying as well.

A firearms expert testifies that the bullet that killed her came from only that gun.

That's the only one here, the one from the lake.

They said it took a lot of time to do the serial numbers, but they said it was a key piece of evidence.

Finding out who owned the gun was critical.

Yeah.

There you go.

And also the financial troubles, ongoing financial troubles, large insurance policy.

Then they find out about his bank accounts.

JPMorgan Chase said that in 2006, monthly balances of his checking account fluctuated wildly, a high of $65,732.97

in May to $2.97 in November.

He blew $60,000?

$65,000.

Wow.

Citibank said that they, at the time of the murder, he had $178.09 in his account.

And an investigator in the credit card services for Bank of America testified later on that Carlos had a balance on his credit cards of $9,528.19.

It was over his credit limit as well.

Wow.

And

HSBC credit card services told the cops that he had two cards that had been in collection since November 2006 for the amounts of $1,500 and $9,000.

So it was over.

It had been constricted.

Squeezed.

Squeeze no money.

Squeezed to the point of nothing.

So 2000, they don't arrest Carlos, by the way.

Really?

No, that was late 2006.

We're going to go through 2007.

All the way through?

All the way through.

Carlos Jr.

said his dad was a destroyed man, and their home had been reduced to a tomb, with his father totally unfit to take care of himself, no less the home.

He said

Carlitos had to handle the funeral arrangements for his mother.

Really?

And also,

Robert Buckley, the attorney, had also seen to it that the insurance companies were notified that the funds collection process was started.

And Carlitos confessed that he'd been surprised at the big dollar amounts of his mom's policies.

December 2007, Carlos Carlos is finally arrested.

Really?

Finally.

What took a year?

Who knows?

So

that's wild.

So they say that he'll surrender.

His lawyer says he'll surrender.

And well, they said, well, he doesn't have a car.

So can you pick him up at his house?

Can you come get him?

So, yeah.

And the detective said, think about it.

They've been working on this for a year.

This is their big moment.

You ever see like on SVU, they're finally going to get the guy, and they kick the door in.

And he's like, got a kid.

Like, he's just duct taping their wrist to a chair.

And And they're like, free scumbag.

And Maloney comes in there and tackles him.

And then fucking Mariska Haggerty gets down and goes, okay, sweetheart.

It's okay.

You're safe now.

Sits down on him with this dump truck.

We're the good guys.

We're the good guys.

That's what they expect here.

And instead, the detective said, it was all very anticlimactic.

He was outside on the driveway waiting for us.

He said, hi.

Hi.

And we said hi.

He asked us to wait a moment so his daughter wouldn't see him handcuffed.

We honored his request.

He was always cooperative.

So like, just not what they were all jacked up and they were like, he goes, hi.

It just ruins it all.

Wait a sec.

I don't want her to see this.

He's arraigned on charges of murder and criminal possession of a weapon.

And he's being held on $1 million bail, which he does not have, obviously.

Now, his friend...

Frank Farillo says that I know about the threats he's received.

Really?

And this, I think someone else did it.

He said Carlos was not the kind of guy to get into a fight with anybody.

He was the kind of guy who would talk his way out of trouble.

He didn't have a violent bone in his body.

And as for the shooting of Peggy, there was just no way.

Without question, Carlos is

innocent.

That's right.

Carlos wants to be polygraphed.

Really?

He has a lot of experience with polygraphs, by the way.

Yeah, he's done them a lot.

He

had people do him more.

Yeah, you think he knows a lot about them.

So he said, that's what's going to prove me innocent.

Cook me up to a polygraph and then let me the fuck go, basically.

Yep.

So he said that he wanted to take it for his kids.

He said,

my kids are constantly bothered by the police.

The cops will seek them out, even at school in front of friends, to ask questions about me.

They deserve this.

He was upset about his youngest daughter, who's 18 at the time, was very vulnerable, and the cops would come there and bother her and harass her and do all this shit.

The cops made excuses saying that their polygrapher was not available.

He persisted.

He wanted to be tested.

Then they just ignored him.

They're like, we don't want you to pass this test and have that be a thing.

Basically, he thought that he could pass the test.

And then he said he understood that that's not admissible in court.

But, you know, if it leaked out,

people who further on the jury later might have heard about it, and it can't be bad for me, basically.

So is this a slam dunk?

Yes.

Seems like it, right?

Seems pretty good.

Seems like a pretty good case, but legal experts here are saying that it's not that easy.

No.

Because there is a pension probe that could damage the police department's credibility right now.

What?

Yeah, there's a scandal in the police department.

It has nothing to do with this or criminal shit, but it has to do with pension stuff.

It has to do with honesty.

Yeah, I guess a top retired officer, a top lieutenant retired officer from Newcastle's police department, which serves Chappaqua, is being sued by the Attorney General's office for an alleged pension scam that may involve up to a quarter of the town's 40-member

police force.

So, do the kids hate Carlos?

No.

Fuck no, they don't.

They're all publicly supporting him.

Alicia said that her father's in distress and in complete and utter pain.

Merced here said that it's inconceivable.

Really?

Inconceivable.

He went, full Princess Bride.

He said, as far as I'm concerned, my father's nothing but a hero.

As you wish.

He just got to the hospital.

As you wish.

He said that, you know, his father told him he was sorry he hadn't been able to protect my mother yeah he said anyone who's ever known my father or mother would tell you that it's inconceivable that my father would do anything to harm her okay uh sometime while he's in here uh i guess somebody the lawyer somebody has a garage sale at his house really yeah to raise money for his raising money

oh yeah all right selling off basically his wife's personal items his dead wife's personal items here um That's crazy.

Among the items were an assortment of footwear, blouses, and a pink satin neglige once belonging to Peggy what oh yeah let's get her fucking selling her teddies he's selling her frilly things

gross that is horrifying wow yep he's doing that they said um one this is funny people walking around the garage sale a 77 year old lady said we know this guy supposedly killed his wife so we were nosy yeah we wanted to see what the house looked like you know see what it's like so and then i got this cheap dildo it's pretty nice actually

It's got the clip vibrator on it, too.

It's pretty nice.

You can't beat it, honestly.

She said she stopped by with her two friends and bought a $45 Corningware plates worth of Corningware plates and bowls.

Many of the items were, they said, price to move.

Peggy shoes were marked one pair for $5, three pairs for $10.

Oh, my God.

Clothing, including the negligee, was going for $1 per item.

That is fucked up, man.

How much can you raise?

Yeah.

How much can you really raise for the defense for this?

What are you going to raise?

$300?

That's not even an hour of a legal defense.

What are you talking about?

They said in the master bedroom, along with the shoes, sat a selection of Peggy's purses.

This is just creepy.

They said also bargains, mother goose collection of nursery rhymes and kids' Halloween costumes are selling for $4 a piece.

A $5 space heater in the garage was parked along one of the big ticket items,

a yellow Suzuki motorcycle with a helmet for $4,600.

What the shit?

Like a dirt bike, bro.

Everything inside the house was for sale, basically.

The attorney, a family friend, and a jerk off, in my opinion, here,

said that people don't mind this.

One guy's loading a gas grill and we'll pick up while other people are lugging TVs and VCRs at us.

He's just taking their shit.

That's right.

Now, the defense talks about the 911 tape.

They said there appears to be genuine panic.

What struck me, if anything, was that Carlos never mentioned his own wounds until asked.

Instead, he focused continually on his wife.

This is not consistent with psychopathy.

I also did not think this sounded like it was staged.

If for no other reason, then it was too chaotic.

I would expect someone who planned this out and was psychopathic to have a story he would begin telling, and he didn't.

Okay.

So actually, the 911 tape's good for us.

Here comes the trial.

Yeah.

The defense presents him as a grieving, innocent husband wronged by circumstance.

Sweetheart, really.

Poor bastard, is the way to put it.

Took her right to the hospital.

That's what I mean.

They said that this was a tragic, random

roadside ambush.

They said, look,

he shot himself, even though it's not that big of a wound.

It doesn't matter.

Also, they said his lawyer insisted that they were happily married and the affairs should have no bearing on this case.

The defense's case here, they said that they said that the whole thing was inconsistent with the tale the prosecution will tell.

It's a fairy tale involving only one victim.

They said that it's manufactured and biased interpretation.

The defense counsel also claimed, like I said, the marital affair was long over by the time of the murder.

His client was not broke, and that the case was handled by inexperienced detectives way over their heads.

He said that the jury, that he would also be appalled and offended by the 911 respondents who were more concerned with jurisdiction issues than in sending help to the seriously injured couple, forcing Carlos to drive himself and his mortally wounded wife to the hospital.

Meanwhile, how many times did they say, pull over, pull over, just pull over?

Where are you?

Can you pull over?

I mean, they didn't force him to do anything.

He forced the issue.

And according to the defense, fully cooperative with police and availed himself to investigators whenever requested.

He has nothing to hide.

Nothing.

My friends.

Prosecutors said,

Jesus.

Come on.

He had no money.

He had an affair going on.

He sent him flowers.

So many life insurance policies.

All these life insurance policies.

Oh, yeah.

His gun killed her.

All right.

His gun is in the lake.

He lied to us about where the fucking crime scene was because that was closer to the lake where the gun was.

This is ridiculous.

By the way, why not throw it out as you drive to the hospital?

Away from you.

Away from the crime scene.

Stupid.

Just throw them in some random woods.

They're not going to find it there three miles away from the crime scene.

I told him it was back there.

Fucking idiot, man.

For such a smart guy.

He's very silly.

Oh, what a dummy, man.

So the witnesses here, they have testimony from Peggy's friends and colleagues.

Yeah.

Said that she's a woman who's not only innocent, but deeply loved.

And her violent death was just a heartbreak for everybody.

And it's terrible.

Wonderful lady, and how much the kids loved her.

And I mean, it was, it's heartbreaking, man.

It's tough.

She's a nice lady and didn't do a thing to anybody.

So it's really difficult here.

Guess who comes and testifies?

It's Elena Iliana Poole.

Oh, Ileana.

What is she gonna say?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

She said it was an on-and-off affair, but they were just telephone friends by the time the wife was killed.

She also said that she never got the flowers that he told police he sent for her birthday.

We know he sent them because there's a record of him calling 1-800 flowers and credit cards.

Whether or not your husband threw them away is not our business.

That's the other thing.

Yep.

The day the prosecutors did that same day, which is funny, they were supposed to come on the same day.

She said she stopped seeing him in 2004 and didn't speak to him for a year.

She said the two of them still talked on the phone, and she had chatted 10 to 15 times with him in the fall of 2006, shortly after he was disbarred.

The defense attorney asked her if Carlos ever told her

that he would never leave his wife

for her.

And she responded, quote, I never asked him to.

Oh.

Which is kind of.

That's a good gal.

Yeah, you just shut that down right there, clamped that fucking right off.

Yeah, so they asked her about the flowers.

She said they never arrived.

Her testimony was less than 30 minutes because they were limited to questions that related to the statements that Carlos made about his marriage.

Nothing else.

So they were real, it was a lot of, no, that can't go there.

No, you can't say that.

That sort of shit here.

So there's also dueling forensics people.

Really?

Yes.

The defense expert says there's no evidence that Peggy was shot at close range.

None,

which is interesting.

The chief medical examiner for New Hampshire, who was in on this,

hired by the defense, could offer no conclusion about who fired the shot, but he supported the defense version by suggesting the gun was not even close to her head.

He said if it were a close shot,

there would have been stipling, stipling dots resulting from gunpowder wounds on her entry wound.

They said this injury was described as having that, and there is none here.

Now, the Westchester Medical Examiner's Office for the prosecution concluded there was stipling and said that the shot was from close range, but the defense one said you simply cannot draw the conclusion based on the injuries of the deceased.

That's what he said.

He said that actually what they said was the little dots there was actually hair follicles from her shaved scalp

when they shaved to look at wounds.

So those little dots are just stubble.

That's what they're saying.

That's what they're trying to say here, which is pretty fucking interesting.

Also,

the district attorney attempts to discredit this defense expert by getting him to concede that he did not even reach out to the Westchester Medical's Office in his review and that he only worked on this case for five to six hours and got paid $5,600 for his efforts.

Not bad.

That's pretty good.

That's a grand an hour right there.

That's not bad.

They also pointed out that two of this person's subordinates in the New Hampshire Medical Examiner's Office were convicted for a scam involving cremations.

Nice.

They also, the Westchester County Forensic Scientists testified that the gunshot residue test they performed led her to conclude the muzzle of the gun was flush with the passenger seat headrest when it was fired.

Oh, went through it.

You fly that are next to it.

Yeah.

So also the roof liner, they found a bullet hole in the Montero's roof liner.

And that's a big deal that they talk about a bunch.

And they say they concluded from their analysis that the gun's muzzle was 10 to 14 inches away from the liner, the roof liner, the whatever.

They said an unlikely scenario in Carlos's account of what happened during the struggle for the gun.

So they said that Carlos's superficial gunshot wound had appeared from the residue analysis of his shirt to be a contact wound.

So they did that.

Over objections from the defense, a forensic scientist demonstrated with the handgun, the suspect gun, that the actual headrest from the Montero, how the fatal shot most likely had been fired.

Telltale.

vaporous lead smudge from the bottom of the headrest indicated she testified a near-contact shooting of the weapon and they said an execution style shooting where the muzzle of the gun had been inserted between the bottom of the headrest and the top of the backrest against her head a space of two inches and fired she never fucking saw it coming.

Through the back of the headrest.

He was trying, oh, yeah, I'm looking for something back behind your seat.

And reached around.

Put it back.

She had no fucking idea it was coming, had a gun.

Imagine that.

Oh, my God.

And then he shot her in the fucking head.

That is disturbing.

That's colorful.

Fuck.

That's nasty shit right there.

And then you were like, okay, let me shoot myself.

Okay.

Call me.

Fire one in the room.

Oh, God.

What the fuck?

Yeah, throw this in the lake.

In closing, the prosecution said that

crumbling finances, lucrative insurance policy, and his story is a piece of shit.

He's guilty.

They said he's a man

used to twisting narratives as a defense attorney that he thought he could gaslight everybody here, and he can't.

He said that they spent more than two hours on this closing, the prosecutors, pointing out the inconsistencies between his story and evidence found in the car, such as lack of blood in the back seat, a white plastic trash bag

covered in gunshot residue that was found tucked into the pocket of his trench coat.

What?

He put a fucking bag over his hand because he knew about gunshot residue because he's a defense attorney.

They said they told the jury that his life was spinning out of control in 2006 and that he started raising his wife's insurance fucking payouts.

They said his career as an attorney was over.

His career as a husband was over.

The verdict here, jury does 11 hours of deliberation.

That's a long time.

That's what I mean.

This is not as...

Several days.

That's over a couple different days, and they find him guilty of everything.

Yeah, guilty of all charges.

It's only a couple, but guilty.

Outside the court, Merced, very upset.

Real son.

He punched a hole in the courthouse wall.

Okay, let's not talk to him.

Then he went back up the stairs and kicked a silver trash can that rolled down the hallway while his father's lawyers tried to physically restrain him and calm him down.

Sir,

you're in court, bro.

Yeah.

I would think at West Point they teach you to control yourself, right?

Jesus Christ.

This isn't, you're not the manager of the Yankees.

You're not

Billy Martin.

Yeah.

I mean, somebody, I'm sure I was at one point screaming in your face what a piece of shit fucking person you are and you had to be okay with that.

Somebody probably called you racist names to your face.

For sure.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So the defense attorney, Christopher McClure, is the guy giving the closing.

He said he was disappointed in the verdict and said that he plans to file an appeal.

Okay.

He said it was an entirely circumstantial case.

An innocent man is in jail.

We'll win on appeal, I promise.

Oh, yeah.

We'll get it.

Just more money.

One juror explained here,

Alfren Vallejo, a 31-year-old technician from White Plains, said the jury wanted to make sure it went through every piece of evidence from the whole trial.

It was an 11-day trial

before rendering a guilty verdict.

He said he was struck by the similarities between the murder weapon found in Echo Lake near the slaying scene and the pistol that he was seen with several months earlier.

They said through the whole trial, that's the thing that stuck.

Yeah.

They said they

also said, quote, about the defense attorneys, they were okay, and we could tell they were doing their best with what little they had.

They were always reaching.

What if this?

What if that?

Or the possibilities, the possibility of this, the possibility of that.

They said that concrete evidence the prosecution presented, you know, looked a little less here.

He said, I knew what they were trying to do, but it just didn't stick.

It didn't stick with him.

They said, then all those gunshots happening, that didn't wake her because he said

she must have fallen asleep from having a couple of drinks.

You know, she's on the phone two minutes fucking before him.

And the first shot,

even if she was asleep, the first shot is the one that hit her.

That's what I'm saying.

He's not firing a bunch of shots in the car and then hitting her last.

That's exactly right.

And they said, then Mr.

Perez-Alivo being dragged into the back of the car in very close quarters.

That would have mangled his clothes.

Yet the cameras at the hospital show a very stylishly dressed defendant with his clothes in perfect order.

It was like, whoa, that kind of got us.

Yeah.

They asked to hear the 911 tape again.

9-11.

Yeah.

So they said the problem with the 911 tape was that Carlos didn't give police any kind of direction where he was and where he was going.

He was very vague about the whereabouts.

In the beginning of the tape, when he said, oh, hi, I think my wife has been murdered.

He sounded insincere.

Oh, hi, Mark.

Oh, hi.

Oh, hi.

My wife's been murdered.

I think my wife's been murdered.

So who got the insurance?

The three kids.

Yeah.

They paid out a total of $450,000 to the children.

God damn it.

That was at the big policy here.

And then there's another one that paid out $100,000 too.

So they're doing pretty well.

That was his fucking escape back to reality.

He was going to get $500,000 and he thinks that's going to be enough.

That's not just blew through $60,000 in a minute.

And I'm sure that was not even all.

That wasn't close.

yeah he was probably scamming people and everything else and then another policy paid out a hundred fifty five thousand seven hundred ninety seven dollars and seven cents yeah to the to carlos really seat jr for some reason uh i don't know why that's still 655 ain't gonna do it man no that ain't gonna do it so sentencing comes around yeah uh the mitigation the children submit a letter they said we are requesting that our father be given the minimum sentence permitted by law for the following reasons my family's been destroyed we We have no mother.

We have no father.

It's impossible to describe the anguish that each of us deals with on a daily basis.

We are beside ourselves in grief.

We will never be normal again.

No one has listened to us.

We believe our father is innocent.

We love him and want him back in our lives.

To extend his sentence is to directly extend the pain we experience every day.

We trusted the legal system and it has failed us.

You got 655.

What are you talking about?

Yeah, you got that.

Trust that.

We are very angry.

Our protests have fallen on deaf ears.

Our misery is the subject of the evening news, and our plight is pushed aside by politics.

We were never given a choice in this matter, and we're very angry.

We want our father to know our grandchildren, walk down the aisle when we marry, be present in our lives as we achieve further accolades.

None of that will happen if you so choose.

Please listen to us.

You have the power to ensure our father will never be a part of us again.

You have the responsibility to

choose

wisely and prudently.

Please help my family heal.

We are victims.

We have no power.

We're placing our faith in you.

Please listen to us and give my father the minimum sentence permitted by law.

Normally they do.

Carlos Jr.

said, now we have no mother and no father on the stand.

Carlos says, I didn't do shit.

Yeah.

Now they have no mother self.

He said, I didn't do nothing.

That's what I have to say for myself at sentencing.

He said, the real killer is still out there and you're letting him go.

All right.

That's what he said.

The prosecutor said, Mr.

Perez-Olivo thought that he could one final time spin the events of that November night two years ago to his advantage, but the facts of the case told a different story.

He meticulously planned and carried out the murder of his wife, weaving a web of deceit and concocting a story to cover up his actions.

He believed that he would not be held accountable for the murder.

So, yeah, that's it.

Not be held accountable for the murder.

The judge called Carlos a master of deceit who concocted a diabolical plan to kill his wife.

You, sir, may fuck off 25 years to life in prison, which is the maximum allowed under law for second-degree murder.

He got second.

Which is, that seems planned.

Yeah.

He's also convicted of a weapons possession charge, which is 15 years, but it's concurrent.

He still blames his ex-client.

Really?

He says that Cruz.

Elio did this.

Elio Cruz is responsible for the attack.

He says he's got a prison guy, some guy in prison who talked to him, and the guy says that he definitely did it.

And it's fucking ridiculous, honestly.

it's it's got pizza money that guy yeah it's crazy

it's he can he can afford hit men one another guy he named was russell carbone a former new york city defense lawyer who shared a law office with him years ago he said carbone had filed an ethics complaint accusing carlos of of sex of a sexual attack oh yeah um so anyway that's he blames them 2015 he starts an appeal uh-huh let's just say it's not working out so well

he lost on appeal This appeal not working out so well.

They got a retired NYPD homicide detective to go, it's obvious bullshit.

That was their guy who, like, in the appeal, was like, this is bullshit.

The vegetation on the tree limbs that once obscured the view of the lake had been removed and cut away, and you can see it now.

But before he said, now it looks like you could make so it looked to the jury like throwing a handgun away would be easy because they cleared the brush.

They could have walked down there and threw it.

It doesn't matter.

So all of that kind of shit.

The appeal,

that detective said, anyway, Carlos was way too smart to have made a mistake of disposing of the murder weapon in the most obvious place.

The guy was a criminal defense attorney.

He must have learned a few tricks along the way.

Oh, God.

We've learned that.

Nobody learns anything.

That guy can't be that stupid.

It's never an excuse.

We wouldn't have a show if people weren't that stupid.

You understand?

They're all that stupid.

They're all that stupid.

Every week they're that stupid.

So the decision here, they say, viewing the light and the viewing the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution, we find that it was legally sufficient to establish the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

And they're satisfied that it was not against the weight of the evidence.

Go fuck yourself.

He is in prison at this moment, I believe.

Yes, he's definitely there now.

He's at Auburn at the moment.

He

remains in prison.

Will be eligible for parole, though.

Really?

In 2032, in December, when he's 84 years old.

Bet you dies in there.

I think he's going to die in there.

That's what I'm saying.

Now, the chief of police, who's now retired, Chief Breen, here, I'll give him the last word.

He said it this way, quote, he did it.

He killed her.

That was his gun.

He shot himself and threw the gun in the lake.

We found the gun, and it proved to be the murder weapon, and we found a witness to put it in his hand.

Case closed.

It's his gun.

In my opinion, it was cold-blooded murder.

This guy took his wife to the city, took her to a movie, took her to dinner, drove her 30 miles, pulled over, got in the back seat, shot her in

the head while she slept.

There's no doubt in my mind that he did it.

It was confirmed by a jury of his peers.

I can't give enough credit to the prosecutor and their team.

They did a great job.

He said, this guy is a pathological liar.

You can't believe anything he says.

He had his opportunity to testify in court that he was innocent and he didn't.

That tells you something.

If there's a heaven and a hell, he'll burn in hell.

Now, Merced disagrees.

He says the people who think his father killed his mother, he said, those people don't know my parents because if they did, they'd know my dad is incapable of killing my mom or anybody for that matter.

Well, he's going to be in prison for another seven years at least.

There you go, everybody.

That is Chappaqua, New York.

And he's a huge asshole.

Yeah, well, he's certainly going to do the time of one.

He is.

Absolutely.

So we're quickly here at the end.

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This week for Crime and Sports, we're going to talk about the Liver King.

That crazy shit, who I thought was dead.

And then for Small Town Murder, we're going to do some general alien stuff, some Roswell shit.

We're going to have some fun.

Terrific.

We've had a lot of heavy murder trials.

We're going to have some fun with

it.

Some weird.

Yep, that's what we're going to do.

We're going to hi, talk about aliens.

That's what we're going to do.

So let's do that.

And also, you're going to get a shout out.

Also, wait, before you do that, follow on social media

at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Small Town Pod on Facebook.

Now, Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever take us to a nice dinner and then shoot us in the fucking head as we slept slept from too many cosmos.

Heavy with them right now.

This week's executive producers are Margaret Spucuka.

I don't know if that's real.

Possibly.

Claude Cavallo, Reena Sanja, Manja's wife.

She's a doctor now.

Congratulations.

Good for you, Rina.

I don't know how to say his name.

I don't know how to say yours.

An Indian doctor.

Who would have thought?

It may be some job.

I don't know.

I don't know.

You never see an Indian doctor, so that's shocking, obviously.

Congratulations.

Reese Probin, Gary Howard, Coach Victor Jr.

Jr.

Margarita Miller in Israel thinking about you and your fam.

Hang in there, Margarita.

Jesus Christ.

Thank you so much for everything.

Jamie Kodrovich.

Allie Deutsch.

Allie.

She's terrific.

Alpaca Lips.

I'm not calling Allie that.

That's somebody's name.

Gunther Buto,

Stephen Harding, Buddy La Rosa.

Do you know who that is, James?

Does they have something to do with Terrible Pizza?

It is the founder of the Terrible Pizza Pizza.

That's the perfect.

Good, good, good.

I think he loves us.

He can give us money, but not pizza.

We definitely don't want the pizza.

I wonder if it's really him.

If it is, he's 71 and he really gives a shit about this show.

Yeah, no, I don't think so.

More than he gives a shit about that pizza.

Yeah, put your efforts into the pizza for the people of Cincinnati.

Don't worry about us.

Matthew Johnston and other producers.

Thank you all so much for that.

Thank you so much.

You guys are fucking awesome.

Thank you.

Really, it means a lot.

Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows.

Happy hour checking in.

And John, maybe it's Yan, New Mexico.

That's a small town.

Jan?

Wow.

New Mexico?

I've never even heard of that.

And before that, he was in Conroe, Texas.

Didn't even know that.

I just found that today.

He was in Cindy and Marsha before that.

Yeah.

Janice Hill, also.

Michael Herman, Lacey Liu, or IU.

I don't know if that's an I or an L.

Toby McClellan Taylor, Kyler, Kyle, KCK.

What is that?

Kick?

Kachak, Kock, Kak?

I don't know.

Wow.

Cuck.

Don't be a cuck, Kai.

Don't be a cuck.

What's going on?

Kate Roddy.

That could go so many different directions.

Depending on the vowel.

Megan Schultz, Grace Ann Sullivan, Joanna Kornazewski, Zuska.

Lauren Rhodes.

Hey, Lauren.

Just Lisa.

Brittany Santos.

Santos with no last name.

That could be the same person.

I'm not sure.

Laura Hughes, Jennifer Klopaki, Shana with no last name.

Soph Bree,

Joshua Roderick, Sarah Binning, Cassidy Chance, Jacob Belvery, Belvery, not Beverly.

It's literally.

Belvery.

He spelled it twice.

So that's his last name.

Angela Gore, Simon Spindle or Spindell, Lynn Cavallo, Travis Paulson, Adam Pamianovsky, Kelsey Green, Libby, 43, Victory, Victoria, sweet.

Nathan Delmer, Alicia B.

Joker with no last name.

Cindy Hudson, Tricia Baker, Paul Lockwood, Rachel Howell, Missy

Brazovich,

Jonah, Joanna, Wilk, Jason Riebolts, Tricia Oviat, Melinda Lambert, Crystal Dice, Dite, yeah, Dice, Rebecca with no last name, April Hartley, Squire motherfucking Boone, Dave Garcia, Teresa Savage, Davina Marshik, Joshua Kabizny, Cubizny,

Kyle Swan, Samantha Nofts, Evolution Training Center, LLC.

I don't know where it is.

Keisha Childress, Lloyd Keillor,

it exists.

Drew B.

Cheyenne Duffany, Jose, Josie, Jose Azamas, Azamas,

Robert Masek, Masik, Cole with no last name, Monica A.

John Cavan, Canavon, Canavan, Cherie Chance, Elizabeth Potts, Jay Bo, Gina, Gina Fabe, Catherine Neal, Angela Bowles, Che with no last name, Chloe Blackburn, Hannah Henderson, Tara Lee, Erica Floyd, Julie Godot, G Porter, Chelsea Marshall, Gordon Waws.

Oh, boy, why is this a palindrome?

Wila.

W-O-O-I-L-I-O-O-W.

Jesse Boyer.

It doesn't make any sense.

Rachel Adamchick.

A damn chick.

A damn chick.

A damn chick.

Samantha Kay.

Decode Baza.

Bazdin.

Like Basil Fordy.

That's not.

I don't know what.

Decode, is that a real name?

Decodey?

Is it

Aaron McCall Odell?

Ashton Myers.

Anything you want.

Abby Kay, Samantha Wynn, Kate Bott, Susan Clark, Whitney Hansen, Daniel Danielle.

Nope, that's Daniel Sizemore.

Rebecca Combs, Amy Armstrong, Maggie Mays, Maggie Mays Lindquis,

Bree Carr, Yael Cohen.

Twice.

He has two patrons.

Or she.

Wow.

Yael.

I don't know if that, I don't know the fucking you gender of that but thank you you're the best megan murstock tyler jackson julie thornton shy shell shay shell shell with no last name suzanne with no last name bloody josephine brandon the flight nurse sean pay uh kyra ben lulu uh kathleen with no last name benjamin white athena with no last name clay barton karen with no last name kayala Graham uh or Kayla maybe Marcy Stitt Michelle Heiss Katie what is that Kinlaw Julia Warwick Julia, yeah, it is.

That's right.

I nailed it.

All right, moving on.

Adrian Brandt, Casey Hainberg,

Patricia Cunningham, Leanne Wenbon, Price, Grant Gibb, PJE, Amber with no last name, Meet Tractor, that's gross.

Sharice Gardner, Nick Rubble.

Oh, just Rubble.

Rubel.

Maybe Rubel.

Katie Terry.

Dr.

Catherine Fry.

If she's a doctor, we'll let her know.

Caitlin Palmer, Stephanie James, Julia Guglia.

There she is.

Christmas with no last name.

Sherry Strutz, Shannon Saplich, Sappalich, Michael Thompson, Carissa with no last name, Levi Sanders, Jessica with no last name, Cassie Thompson, Ronda Crawford, Jack Thomas, Bree with no last name, Patrick Edwards, Jason Pappas, Erica Bosley, Mark Hughes, Morgan Terensky, Frankie Montpetit, S.

Salvatato,

Annie Mouse, Michelle Thompson, Casey S., Nichols with no last name, Sam Hodges, Katie Marlow, KO, this letter brought this show brought to you by the letter K and O.

This

show.

This letter brought to you by the shows, K and O.

Jenna Barger, Rooney Gleason, Lyle with no last name, Christian Leisinger,

Elizabeth Spinowski.

Debbie Chilvers, Ashley Makowski, Pod Addicted17, Heather with no last name, Amanda Malloy, Sage Quick, Sam Gosling, Evelyn,

oh boy, Pateau, Hannah with no last name, Jessica Shelton, Larissa Bourgeois, Sarah with Sarah Strutz, Heather Heyer, Katie Kathy with no last name, Kathleen Hall, Stephanie Fitzmorris, Patrice,

Graham Harden, Bryn Spence, Amber Jackson, Jen with no last name, L M and L.

ML.

Crushing it today, aren't you?

Kim

is fucking torturous.

Paint it, though.

Fucking shit.

Kim,

I'd rather be waterborne.

I'd rather have each pube ripped out one by one.

Mark Murray, Don Tussell, Stacey Martinez, Deanne, Deanne, Waddy, Alexandra Founce, Matthew LOL, Marla Carlisle, Jessica.

Nope, that's Christine.

What?

Widner.

Oh, there's Jessica.

Oh, there's leisure.

Shea with no last name.

Robin Thayat.

Allie Dix.

Oh, boy, that's tough.

Heather Jamison, Marcy Crowe, Kathy Ayers, Leah Ruggiero, Jail Figuero,

Figuerreado, Joe Swanner, Steven, Steve Rodriguez, Dacer, 20, oh, 66, Jamie White, Chloe Wiggins, Deanna with no last name, Megan and Dave Jensen, Julia Dracia, Robert Bowden, Morgan Hill, hey, Morgan, hello, Shakira Johnson, Jason Davis, Bailey Guenin, Claire Jackson, Juanita Harris, Joshua Asher, Luke Simon, oh, I hope that's Simon,

Dustin Steites, Seitz, Georgios, Giorgios,

Antonopoulos, Austin Rogers, David Patterson, Michael Reidner, Carolyn Seeley, Wicked Joker Wrestling Historian.

Oh, he loves wrestling like you do.

Hillary Smith, Jill Quinn, Rachel Vraxish,

Sierra Bainey, Alice Watson, Missy Grubb, Kane, Clark Gurion, God damn it, Nathan Baxter, Michelle with no last name, Soul Magic, Soul Magic, Pariah Mee, Patrick with no last name, Brandon Washington, Nancy Koonsman, Ashley Miller, Henry Watson, Miley, Mael,

Mali, Sumita,

Samaida, Ashley McGarry, Chris Kay, Scotty Woodleaf, Jennifer Chambers,

Jessica, Jessica, Pesanka, Peschena,

Jessica with a wow.

Jessica, her brother,

not for me, Heather Hodgkins, Mabiaca,

That's her cousin.

Maybe a cousin.

Marley LeBeau.

Amy Bennings.

Stephen Harding.

Casey Dunn.

Viv with no last name.

Katie Schmidt.

Desi Marie.

Jennifer Doroski.

Ann Johnson.

Elizabeth Murphy.

Joe Mitchell.

Lexi Ivins.

Raikin.

Reichen.

Huntington.

Eliza with no last name.

Also Eliza Krueger.

Probably the same person.

We don't have.

I'm thinking.

Maybe.

That many Elizas.

It's possible.

Sean Kuhl.

Shoshana.

Shahana.

Shahana Jod?

Good lord, Jawed, maybe.

Joe Parker, Christina Eldritch, James Williams, Sonia Bayer, Heather Lewis, and every patron that exists.

Thank you all so much.

You're the best.

You are the best.

And we just want to say there are some people who donated in the past week and a half that because of the way we were not doing the early release, the way the schedules went, there was a lot.

So if you didn't hear your name, you will hear it next week.

We just kind of had to cut the list a little bit.

So half of our episodes aren't shout outs.

So it's thank you so much because there's some.

So, we appreciate that.

Thank you.

We want to do it.

So, give me some time.

Thank you so much, everybody.

You beautiful, fantastic, wonderful bastards.

We appreciate the fuck out of you and everything you do for us.

Thank you from the bottom of our hearts.

Keep hanging out with us.

You want to follow us on social media?

Shoutout and givememurder.com has all the menus, all that.

Get to that shit.

Keep doing that.

And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.

Bye.