The Murder And The Miracle - Mont Vernon, New Hampshire

You know you've reached peak couple energy when your undies match. Me undies match me has you both covered.
Literally in super soft ultra-modal undies, socks, PJs, and loungewear. Festive prints?

Check. Cozy vibes? Double check.
And right now, it's deal season. Get up to 50% off site-wide for Black Friday and Cyber Monday.
Take your couple game to the next level with me undies match me.

To get deals up to 50% off, go to meundies.com/slash comfort promo code comfort. That's meundies.com/slash comfort code comfort.

Today, we'll attempt a feat once thought impossible: overcoming high-interest credit card debt. It requires merely one thing: a SoFi personal loan.

With it, you could save big on interest charges by consolidating into one low-fixed-rate monthly payment. Defy high-interest debt with a SoFi personal loan.
Visit sofi.com/slash stunt to learn more.

Loans originated by SoFi Bank NA, member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply.
NMLS 696891.

This week, in Mont Vernon, New Hampshire, a comfy country home is the setting for a terrible massacre, causing detectives to be suspicious of the spouse, only to find out that it's actually a much darker plot, leading to horror and a story of unlikely survival.

Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay!

Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed.
My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host.
I'm Jimmy Wussman.

Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on an absolutely wild, crazy edition of Small Town Murder. It always is, and I'm shocked by it every week.
I'm like,

it can't keep getting crazier and crazier, and it always does. So let's stay on this murder train, and we'll keep on going.

But definitely, before we get into the story, head over to shutupandgivemeurder.com. Get your merchandise.
Get your tickets for live shows.

Number one, we will be, and I think it's October 18th, the Saturday night there in mid-October in Seattle at the Moore Theater. It's beautiful.
That'll be great. Let's fill that bad boy up.

It's almost full now, but let's continue and let's sell that bad boy out. So that's going to be great.
And then get your tickets for, on top of that, the virtual live show that we have coming up.

It's the Thursday before Halloween, and it is going to be our Halloween virtual live spectacular, just like a regular live show. All the pictures and the jokes and everything like that.

We're also going to wear costumes and look like idiots.

It'll be a very, very fun time. We cannot wait.
We got a real weird story picked out. It's going to be awesome.
So get those tickets. Shut up and give me murder.com.

Also, listen to our other shows, Crime in Sports and Your Stupid Opinions

to find out all of the best reviews on the internet.

That's so much fun. And then get yourself Patreon as well.
Patreon.com slash crimeinsports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get it all.

You're going to get hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard before immediately upon subscription to binge on.

Then you get new ones every other week, one crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get it all.

This week, which we are going to get for crime and sports, we are going to talk, we're going to take it light. We're going to do light.
We've done a lot of heavy stuff. So

we're going to talk about the old rock and jock specials that used to be on MTV.

The basketball games, the softball games. So embarrassing.
Celebrities that are five foot three trying to play basketball. It's the funniest thing you ever want to see.

And we're going to talk all these.

Showing how fucking tiny he is. I can't wait to talk about that.
Then for Small Town Murder, again, we're going to lighten it up a little bit because we've had a lot of heavy stuff lately.

It's internet salad time. Here we go.
We're going to talk about everything on the internet except politics. We'll keep that out of that stuff.

And we're going to talk about all the stuff that's going on, especially that Saudi Comedy Festival, too. We want to get into that since that's kind of in our wheelhouse there.

We'll talk about all that stuff, whatever you've been interested in around the internet. And if you have anything you want us to talk about, let us know.
So do that, patreon.com slash crimeinsports.

And you also get all of the content that we make, crime and sports, your stupid opinions, both episodes of Small Town Murder, all ad-free with your Patreon.

Ad-free. And you get a shout-out at the end of the show.
Jimmy will mess your name all up for you. It's all we can give.
Our veins are open.

It's all over the place. It's all we got.
So please, please sign up for that, patreon.com slash crimeinsports. That said, disclaimer time.
Here we go. This is a comedy show.
We're comedians.

There's also murder. Okay.
That's how it works. And that's, you go, how is that funny? Plenty to laugh about with that.
We can make fun of the murderers or murderer. That's always fun to do there.

You can make fun of a small town town because we all come from somewhere that's easily made fun of who cares about that that's what we can do but what we don't do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victim's family why is that jay because we're assholes but

but we're not scumbags see how that works it's perfect if you just keep it to that but for some people they don't think that comedy and true crime should ever ever go together yeah i don't know for those people we might not be for you but i think you should give it a shot i think you might be looking at it the wrong way either way no complaining later I think it's time to sit back, everybody.

What do you say? Let's clear the lungs and let's all shout.

Shut up

and give me murder.

Let's do this, everybody.

Let's go on a trip, shall we? Here we go. We are going to Mont Vernon, New Hampshire.
Mont Vernon. Yes, M-A-I'm sorry, M-O-N-T Vernon, New Hampshire.
Now, there's a story behind that.

When I said it in the beginning, people went, I think he means Mount Vernon, I'm sure.

No, I definitely mean Mont Vernon. And they have kept that you out of that word on purpose for a long time.

It's Mont Vernon, New Hampshire, down in southern New Hampshire, down there in, you know, kind of commuter range to Boston. It's about an hour and 15 minutes to Boston.

So you can definitely get there. About an hour and 10 minutes to Dover, New Hampshire.
Our last New Hampshire episode, which was 85 episodes ago, we have

completely slept on New Hampshire. I apologize.
We have not been there. That was the kinky killer couple, the last New Hampshire episode, and that was a weird one.
This is in Hillsborough County.

Area code 603.

Town motto, fuck how people spell things.

We're going with Mont. Who cares? It's good enough for us.

A little bit of history of this town. We'll find out where the U went.
Where's your U, everybody? Why'd you...

Been finding it for years. From what I found, it's not clear why they spelled it

differently than all the other towns that named their towns Mount Vernon, like Mount Vernon, New York, and a ton of other ones.

They named it after Virginia after

George Washington.

Yeah, that was the deal. It was spelled here.
It was spelled without a U from the start and written in that way even in the town charter in 1803.

So it's odd. Then a local hotel owner named George Kitteridge convinced the U.S.
Post Office to put the U in in the late 1800s

in hopes of boosting business. He thought if it was Mount Vernon and not Mont Vernon, people will come flooding here for some reason.

Didn't seem to make a difference. But so they did that.
But then after he died, he must have been like a powerful guy nobody wanted to mess with. Because then after he died,

they took the U back out again. They like placated this guy.
And then spided him after he left. And then it was like, okay, he's dead.
No one will complain anymore. You won't know anymore.

Really weird. The town was originally settled for agriculture.
They had tons of farms here.

But the farms were hit hard after the Civil War because railroads opened up and there was better farming land in the Midwest and they were kind of dominating the business.

Basically, the town's population peaked in 1870 and has been declining ever since then.

And lately, in the last 30 years or so, it's kind of shot up a little bit near those levels here. It became a tourist town after

all the farms dried up and people come from Boston and

go out in the country, basically.

Probably leaf peakers. Yeah.
Now it's a suburban community and, you know, that sort of thing. So that's what it is.
It's commuters and things like that.

Reviews of this town, because we've never been there. We have no idea.
Here's three stars. Very small, quiet town.
This is a very small town, too. There's barely like a town itself.

It's mainly just houses out in the

and on their own. No businesses, but community gathers often.
Good. Is it called a village? I guess.

They're calling it a town. It depends on the states.
They have different classifications as you go state to state of what they have because they'll have

hamlets in some places. They don't have that in other states.
Townships, sure. Townships.
Good elementary school.

You'll have to go to the next town over for stores and a high school. For those stores.
Stores.

It says no businesses. It doesn't have a quaint main street with all the businesses or any of that stuff.
It's just

surviving on property taxes? I guess so.

Four stars.

Besides every once a year, maybe, there's very little crime here.

What's the year? What's the day of the year the crime comes?

It's not purge day.

That's what I mean. Do they have

it's real bad that day? It's that day. It's a lot of murder.
Let me tell you, stay in your house that day. But other than that, quiet shit.

We clean up the mess the next day and then we just go back to normal. It's spread, but after that, everything's fine.
Wow.

Oh, also, too.

New Hampshire doesn't have sales tax, so the businesses wouldn't matter anyway. I guess not.
But you'd think that people would still want to buy things.

Yeah.

In their own. Yeah, it's convenience, but

at least a little store, a little

convenience, something. I don't know.
You think you'd kill it if you just had a little fucking general store. That's what I mean.
In general, a very safe place to live.

Here's three stars. I don't mind where I live.
And overall, it's wonderful, but it can be a little little too small at times, but it's okay. But it's okay.
This person will not give you an opinion.

I don't mind overall. It's wonderful.
It could be a little too small, but no, it's okay. But just to say what you mean.
I'd love to know what that person really thinks.

Yeah, real flip-flop for that guy. Oh, man.

And then three stars, there are a few abandoned or foreclosed properties in town, but in the past few years, it's really cleared up, including new apartment buildings being put up.

The only really poor part of town is the trailer park near the dump. Yeah.
Yeah, but

you said the town's nice. There is a trailer park near the dump.
You'd go, that's probably not that nice, I would assume.

Probably not overflowing with positive shit. Yeah, that's why they put it near the dump, probably.
That's not good.

People of this town, 2,580. So

very small little joint, and it's spread out pretty good, too. All these properties are five acres, four acres, eight acres.
They're all big properties.

More men than women here. It's 51.7% men, which is not, you know, it's aberrant.
It's not the normal average there. Median age is about six years over the national average at 44.5.

Family here, it's all married people with kids. That's all it is here.
It's 61% married, and only 8% are single with children. There's no like single parents.
This is like... Really?

You get married, you move out here. Yeah, I think because it's kind of out there.
Like to sit here by yourself

with a kid would be quiet, really quiet and weird.

You need a partner here just to fill in the space. It is fascinating.
With Boston, you get an hour outside of Boston. You are nowhere near Boston.

There's nothing there. You're in the forest, man.
Yeah, I like that.

Race in this town, 97.4% white, 0.0% black, 0.3% Asian, 0.2% Hispanic.

Religion in this town, 50-50 is average in the the country. Here it is 43.5% of the people are religious.
And by far and away, the leader coming out of the clubhouse here is Catholic, obviously. 32%.

As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the North.

And if you're a new listener, that just means there's a lot of Baptists in the South and a lot of Catholics in the North. That's all.

You can flip-flop based on what state, whether it's Alabama or Maine, you're going to get the opposite. Oh, for sure.
So very low unemployment here, less than half the national average. Really?

Because Boston's right there. So there's places to work, I guess.

Median household income here is extremely high.

The U.S. average is $69,000.
Here it is $134,432 a year. Yeah.

It's double. Double the national average.
The people in New Hampshire are doing quietly fucking fantastic.

These people, I think, they work in high-paying Boston jobs and then live out here. And I think is how this works for the most part.

Because I don't think there's like an employer around here that's going to pay you $130,000 a year.

I mean, you've got Concord and Manchester right there. That's true.
Either way,

it's not in this town.

You're going to have to commute. It's going to come here.

Cost of living, $100 is average. Here, it's $110,000.

So that's a little bit high. The housing is the real high one.
Median home cost here, $535,700.

It makes all the sense. There's so much money up there.

And you can put a ring around in the East Coast, you can put a ring around Boston, a ring around New York, and a ring around Philly, and anything that is drivable, that ring is the drivable ring, what you're willing to commute for.

Anything that's drivable. That's the home ring.
That house drives.

I'm telling you, if you go a half hour north of me, the houses are half the price because it's too far to commute. But here, it's okay to commute to New York.
It's weird as shit.

So if we've convinced you, damn it, Mont Vernon, you're going to go there and you're going to put the U back in this joint. We have for you the Mont Vernon, New Hampshire Real Estate Report.

Okay, here we go. The first house we have for you here.
It is a four-bedroom, two-bath, 1,848-square-foot house on five acres. And it's real rustic looking.

Like it looks like, it looks like three pioneers built it last weekend.

It's all logs and then the inside almost a frame that's very cool inside is all big wood beams and the the big brick fireplace that goes up to the second floor and with the a-frame stretch that's i guess added on that looks new yeah it's pretty cool looking uh this house is 525 000 bucks whoa So a little pricey for 1,848 acres.

Yeah. Next up is kind of your typical suburban looking home, vinyl siding, all that kind of thing here.
Sure.

Four bedroom, three bath, you know, the nice inside the white wood floors some some brick yep 3281 square feet 6.54 acre lot damn so good size house on a big old lot 759 000 bucks for that

yeah which i think isn't that worth it yeah six and a half and then the next house here here is a picture of this it's long it's a real long house

jesus look how long that is it's got the like four car barn garage when you yeah when you come in the garage

you can't shout, honey, I'm home, and have her hear you on the other end of the house. Shit, no, you better call her.
Yeah.

This or him. This here, they have the same sink I do, that bronze

copper thing. Yeah.
Hammered copper. Yeah, that shit.
That's pretty cool. So it's a cool-looking place.
Four-bedroom, three-bath, 4,159 square feet, 5.69 acres,

925,000 bucks. Not,

yeah, that's not terrible. $1 million.

Things to do. That's not bad.

Things to do in this town. Now, okay.

The festivals they have here are not like a festival that has anything. It's like, oh, we're just going to gather type of stuff.

So I just looked up what are the things to do in this town.

And I found a list of the top 10 things to do. And you'll see there's not much going on here.
Okay.

Number one is Paradise Farm.

That's the number one. And the quote under it is, the most beautiful farm in New Hampshire, Massachusetts.
Upon arrival, you'll be greeted by the most lovely farm animals.

Calves, goats, pigs, chickens, and so much more.

Is it a refuge for abused animals or something? No, why is it paradise? It's just paradise farm. What the fuck makes it paradise?

Garwin Falls. Uh-huh.
It says cool waterfall with path to check out. This is the number two thing to do.

Number two thing to do with hike to a waterfall and it's not like a giant it's not niagara falls it's a small little waterfall

it's just a little tiny thing they have them it drops six feet so there's three of them by the creek

there in wappingers yeah oh that's way bigger yeah the falls are huge yeah yeah uh so it says uh not any crazy cool spot to hop and swim super safely. I would recommend stopping by at some point.

Next up, number three, the feel-good farm. Oh, what do you do there?

Well, let's find out. Someone has a review and they said, I gave my wife a day of driving horses.

I gave my wife a day of

old-timey work.

I gave her a day.

Get on horseback and make these other horses move.

Gave her a day of 19th-century hard labor. I thought she'd like that.
She might enjoy it.

Show her back on the range in New Hampshire

for her birthday. Happy birthday, honey.
Happy birthday. Feel like you're in Oklahoma, New Hampshire.
The ear-to-ear grin on her face was a good indicator of how much fun we had.

Next up, the Purgatory Brook and Falls. Don't call it Purgatory, number one.
It doesn't make it sound good.

This is another tiny little falls with a walking trail.

That's it. The Oak Leaves Wood Carving Studio.
I think that's pretty.

Yeah. I think that's pretty self-explanatory.
The Milford Drive-In Theater. It's not even in this town.
It's in Milford. Over in Milford.

You can get out of town.

It looks pretty sad, too, the picture of it. It doesn't look like a great drive-thru.

And drive-thrus are fun. I like a drive-thru.

Drive-in, drive-in. Drive-through.
Keep saying drive-through. James loves a good drive-thru.
I love a drive-through, man. You hand me a bag of cold food out a window.
I'm excited. I'm happy.

I'm jacked.

Show me a picture show at the same time forgetting.

I'm in.

I'm in. The Wilton Town Hall Theater.
Yeah. They say literally the best original movie theater in New Hampshire opened in 1912 and is still going.
I kind of like that. That's cool as far.

I can totally go there. The Copper Kettle to Go, which is in nearby Wilton, signature cocktails and mocktails and burgers.

Do you see where we are?

The Copper Kettle to Go. And then there is the Dark Woods.
What is that? That is their haunted trail

Halloween season, whatever.

What a great opening night, despite the rain.

Thank you for starting our spooky season off right. So there you go.
Not a lot to do, is what I'm getting at. No.
You got to make your own entertainment. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, these people do love.

Right. This area of the country is in love.
Like, has a love. If they could fuck fall, they would.
Oh, yeah. Oh, my God.
The amount of fall up here, you cannot get enough. We just came in the studio.

It's, what is it, 65 degrees and crispy out right now? It's lovely. Some leaves are falling in the sky.

We love fall up in the northeast, man. It's the season.
Crime rate in this town, what we are interested in here, property crime, very low. It's about one-third of the national average.
So

super low, two-thirds, you know, under it. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault.
The Mount Rushmore of crime is also less than half the national average.

Very safe. It is a safe, safe, safe town.
The murder that we're going to talk about right now was the first murder in this town since 1840.

And that was like literally like a bar fight that went wrong.

No, it was. It was a drunken, like a tavern brawl that happened.
They were fighting over pumpkin spice, probably. Fuck.
Yeah, 200 years ago, too. Whether or not it's okay.

Don't put that shit in my beer.

It got real bad. Keep it away.
So let's talk about a murder, shall we here? Or some murder, I should say. Let's do this.
Okay, let's start out.

We're going to talk about a family and where they are in 2009. All right.
Yeah. 2009, not much different from today in terms of our day-to-day lives.

Social media is starting to really burgeon. Facebook is becoming popular.

Instagram doesn't exist yet, but that's where we're at at this point. I think 200, 11 was Instagram.
I think that's when Meta bought it. I don't know.

We'll buy it later. It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter. So it's similar.
We're going to parse that today. Who cares? Yeah, that's not important.

The least important part of our story is when Instagram was bought by Meta. Either way, iPhone or Android in your hand doing the same thing.
It doesn't matter. You just got the same thing.
Same shit.

So let's talk about a guy who has all these things. David Cates, C-A-T-E-S.
David Cates.

He works as an engineer with BAE Systems, a global defense and security company. Oh, contractor.
Makes good money. Yeah.
Makes damn fine money. Lives out here.

They live in a big giant house on some acreage, and it's a real idyllic little life they have out here. He's a real hard worker, David.
He's often out of town for work. He's often travel places.

Known as being very devoted to his family and just trying to make a good living for the family and so they can go do things and that kind of thing here.

Now, he's got a wife named Kimberly, Kimberly Cates, who's 42 in 2009.

Kimberly's a big extrovert. Everybody's real friendly.
Life party. Yeah.

A big runner. She runs a lot.
Oh. She's going to get her energy out running.
She likes to run outdoors. She loves the outdoors.

She lives in the perfect place for that, to love the outdoors and to love to run.

She's a pediatric nurse.

Okay. in two different local hospitals in their labor and delivery and emergency departments.
So she does a that's a tough job. You know what I mean? She runs and then she runs more.

And she runs from hospital to hospital. She pulls babies out of women and then she helps

her department.

It's crazy. Everybody at work likes her.
She's real outgoing.

That kind of thing. They said she's very good and quick thinking, makes her real valuable in the ER and also when something's going wrong during a delivery,

because where they work, it's fast-paced, a lot of chaos. And she apparently is very, very good.
She's a duck on the water. Her feet might be kicking, but above, she looks like everything's fine.

Just coasting. Just coasting, doing fine here.
Now, they have one child, this couple. Yeah.
So this is a

single, you know, only child situation. They live in this big giant house in the country.
Yeah. Out of the way.
Mom's maximizing.

Yeah. Mom's maximizing the day with double shifts at hospitals.
Dad's out government contracting. They are doing great with only one kid.
It's amazing. One kid.

They have an 11-year-old in 2009 named Jamie, and she is cool as shit, too. She's a real mature kid,

like considered to be like

just

wise for her age type of deal. Smart, not crazy like the other kids.
She also gets her energy out. She's a soccer player, straight A student, and super into taking karate for years.
Really?

Yeah, I've heard different and different

tellings of this. I've heard that she was a a black belt.
I don't know if she got to her black belt at that point or not, but she's good at karate.

She's a little kid who might kick your ass, which is pretty cool. I like that.
In 2009, that's a time late. You know what I mean?

Yeah, karate's like the 70s thing. Yeah, karate didn't really...
I mean, I guess it hit its peak with the karate kid and kind of started to take a dive after that.

Well, it got huge with Bruce Lee in the 70s. That's what made it huge.
And then the karate kid kind of gave it a resurgence with kids our age. Right.
Where we were like, yeah, fucking karate, man.

And then it went away and other forms came in. Cobra Kai came and brought it a little bit back now, but not really.

Not really. Those kids still do jiu-jitsu now.
You know what I mean? Yeah, they don't care about that. I don't think they give a fuck about karate anymore.
That's so much.

Don't think so either.

Now, the family dynamic, since David's at work a lot and he works a good amount and he goes out of town a good amount of time, the mother and daughter are very, very close to each other.

And they'd have to be. They live down a dirt road in the middle of nowhere.

You're spending a lot of time at the house together.

They're in Mont Vernon? They're in Mont Vernon, yeah. Yeah,

wow. So everybody says they're inseparable.
They're, you know, always together and always talking. They like to go to lakes to kayak together and shit like that.
They go to rivers, too.

They love kayaking these two. There's so many lakes in this area, too.
Lakes, streams, rivers.

Just water, all sorts of fun nature shit. Now, the family moved here.
They've only lived here about six years. All right.
They're not from the area. They moved here from Ohio,

I guess. Yeah, Kimberly was born in Ohio, and that's where they moved from in about 2003, 2004,

mainly because they realized what it's beautiful, number one, but also they said that it's very safe here.

And they wanted to raise their daughter in a real safe, you know, real safe, nurturing environment.

So

yeah, they relocated. And this town is fucking, it's beautiful.
It really is. When you see it,

it's gorgeous.

It's a pretty little town. The white high peaks of buildings and shit.
Yeah, it's gorgeous. Those old churches from like the 1700s that are certain style in the East Coast.
They're cool looking.

So they, as soon as they moved into, and this is a very safe area and a very safe place that they're living, they immediately had an alarm system installed in their house. Really?

So they were, I don't know if something happened in Ohio that made them leery or scared or if somebody broke into their house or something like that, but they are. They read a book.

Something, whatever. They listen to the show.
I'm not sure.

Whatever it is. This show has sold more security systems

than any door-to-door salesman could ever do.

Yeah. And that's without even doing the simply say facts.
That's just people going out to look for them. That's just that people having common sense.
Yeah. Yeah.

We just, we just kind of lead you toward a good one. That's all.
But you're going to need one. We just send the horse the water, babe.
That's all he can do. You want a drink? There you go.
Lap it up.

Yeah.

So they lived on Trow Road, T-R-O-W, which is a dirt road that runs through a wooded, isolated section of the area.

It's out there, and they have a few acres and everything else. Now, October 4th, this is the weekend of October 3rd, October 4th, okay? Yeah.

On October 4th, this weekend in general, David's out of town on business, so he's gone.

So the ladies are doing their thing on their own here here this weekend. At about a little after 4 a.m.
on October 4th, 2009. Okay, very early, early, early morning.

This is like exactly 25 years, 20 years, 15, how far? Pretty much exactly 15 years ago. 16, 16 years ago.
This is crazy.

This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp.com.
Absolutely.

You got to rewire yourself and you have to kind of of redo your traditions. Therapy can give you the space to create new, meaningful traditions, providing clarity amidst the holiday chaos.

Because it's a lot going on. The holidays, a lot of traditions.
People may have traditions in their family, while some people might have any. They might not have any.

Or they might just be starting traditions of their own. A new one.

Now's the time to reflect on what they mean to you or to rewrite those traditions and make your own, like perfecting a new hot chocolate recipe with the kids or continuing your great aunt's sweet potato pie.

Incorporating therapy into your new existing traditions can help ensure you take time for yourself during what can be a very joyful, but let's be honest here, hectic and sometimes lonely time of the year, too.

Yeah, that's what you got to do. Share your, you know, you can do it.
Share with somebody. That helps a lot.
You know, I'd like to start some new stuff going on here, but it's hard to do.

So you got to, that helps. And I'll see some coaching on that direction, too.
Absolutely. And therapy during the holidays is kind of essential.

You're going to have to deal with family members you might not want to deal with. You might be lonely.
You might have memories come up from past stuff. There's so much here.
Baggage. Absolutely.

So try BetterHelp Online Therapy in December. You can close the year right, close it strong.
BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S.

They also, they do the great, they do this initial match to get you your therapist so you can work and focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences.

They have over 12 years plus experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate, which they usually get it right is what that means.

But if they don't and you're not happy, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. for no charge.
It's amazing.

With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, having served over 5 million people globally, and it works.

They have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Get yourself started on this.
This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you.

Our listeners get 10% off at betterhelp.com/slash small town murder. That's betterhelp.com slash small town murder.
Now back to the show.

Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you about a better kind of safe, simply safe.
Simplysafe.com. S-I-M-P-L-ISAFE.com.
That's right.

If you could stop somebody from breaking in before they got inside, why wouldn't you want to do that? That's the greatest, yeah. Most old school systems, they go off after someone's already inside.

Too late. The alarm's going off.
Woo, woo, woo, big deal. They're stealing things.
They murdered grandma. Who cares at that point? It's all over.
What's the difference? So you don't need that.

That's too late. SimplySafe is different.
It's proactive. They'll keep grandma alive with a double layer of defense that stops crimes before they start.
You've listened to this show. You need this.

There's a lot of bad stuff out there. First, AI-powered cameras spot potential threats outside.
Then, live agents step in, talking to the person through the camera. Get out of here.

You're not allowed here. Go.
You don't know.

Letting them know they're on video and the police are being called right now. So get out and go.
They can even trigger a loud siren or a spotlight. That's how you stop crime before it starts.

There's no long-term contracts or hidden fees. You can cancel anytime.
Named best home security systems by U.S. News and World Report for five years running.
60-day money-back guarantee.

So you can try it and see the difference for yourself. We use it, our houses, our studios, everything.
I can't put together an IKEA coffee table, but I installed this no problem.

I'm telling you, it's good stuff. Super easy.
It's great. You can do it too.
And you really should because I feel better with this. I really do.
And for the holidays, protect your family.

What are you doing out there? This month only take 50% off any new system.

This is one of the best prices you will ever see from SimplySafe. Don't miss it.
Hit simplysafe.com/slash small. Again, that's simplysafe.com slash small and lock in your discount.

There's no safe like SimplySafe. Now back to the show.

So

the 911 call comes in from their house. Okay.

And it's Jamie, who's 11 years old, on a 911 call saying that they need help,

tells the dispatcher, and she can barely speak.

She's speaking in a whisper. His breath? In a whisper,

weak and scared.

She says, quote, they killed my mommy.

And then the dispatcher hears a crash and silence. She collapses after that.
Oh, boy. Little Jamie.
They killed my mommy. She collapses on the floor.
Okay.

So they hear that and they go, holy shit, get some cops and people there immediately.

So police arrive right away at the scene. It takes very little time, even though it's kind of far away.
They're jetting out there.

The Milford police sergeant, Kevin Furlong, got there first. Yeah.
Because it's kind of out in the middle of nowhere. So whoever's closest, get there.

He looked through the front window and saw 11-year-old Jamie lying on the floor covered in blood. Oh, boy.

So you hear a little girl called and didn't finish her call, and there's a phone next to her, and she's lying in a a puddle of blood.

You do what this guy did, which is using his shoulder to smash through the door. They didn't even fucking, no knocking, no trying, didn't even try the knob.
Just get that girl.

Blast through this fucking door.

He then said, quote, this is about what he found when he got in there and saw young Jamie. Part of her foot was missing.
Oh, what? Other parts were barely still attached.

She was attempting to scream and yell. However, nothing was coming out.
Like, she was hacked apart? Yes.

Part of her left foot was missing, and she'd suffered numerous injuries, including a fractured jaw, deep lacerations across her throat.

But she is conscious and lucid and knows what's going on and is trying to tell the cops what's going on. This kid is

badass.

This girl is a badass. She's,

I mean, just wow. To not even go into shock through all that.
Like she is a, her mind is strong and her body too.

So they said, holy shit,

this is fucking crazy. What the hell? So she's telling them, go in the bedroom.
My mom's in the bedroom. That's what she's telling her.
Don't worry about it. Yeah.
Get to the hospital.

She's saying, look in the bedroom, look in the bedroom. She's like, don't worry about me, basically, which is crazy.
So in the bedroom, the paramedics come across Kimberly.

And she is not alive or lucid or conscious. She is horribly.
butchered in there. Oh, boy.
Absolutely horrible. I mean, we'll talk about what, we'll get into it, but holy shit.

So they call the coroner to come get her. They rush Jamie to the hospital to hopefully she'll survive.
She's lost so much blood. They're really worried she's not going to survive at this point.

It's crazy. So apparently, according to Jamie, giving, you know,

her recollection on the way to the hospital, that's how lucid she is. Around 3 a.m.,

A light was shined in Kimberly's face while she was sleeping.

Okay.

She sat up and said, Jamie, is that you?

Thinking it was her daughter because her daughter was sleeping with her in the bed.

So she said, you know, is that you? And she was, at that point, was savaged by a machete.

Good lord. Somebody

attacking her with a machete. She is hit.
She's 36 times with the machete, cacked and stabbed.

She's also stabbed stabbed numerous times in the neck and torso by another knife, a different knife. So she's been attacked with a machete and a knife.

Now,

Jamie, who'd been asleep in the same bed, jumped up, and we don't know, we know she jumped up and ended up going toward the attacker. Now, we don't know if she was trying to fight them off

because she's 11 and knows karate and she's just a ballsy kid, or if she's trying to run away to get to the phone.

Getting strays. Either way, she gets up and tries to run.
Okay.

And the problem is, whichever intruder has the knife starts stabbing her instead. She's stabbed 18 times.
Good lord. A little girl? The little girl in the chest, arms, legs, and back.

At one point, she fell into one of the attackers' arms, just in terms, just was overwhelmed by wounds.

And he threw her across the room into a glass door. Wow.

That is hard to do. Some shit behavior.
Yeah. That is insane.

So the killers then

looking around, multiple people, they decide that, well, they must be dead, both of them. So let's go looking for shit.
So they rummage through the house looking for valuables. Wow.

They steal several items of jewelry and take off.

Now, Jamie

had to lie there pretending to be dead. Really? She played dead while these people looked through her whole fucking house.

She had to wait and wait and wait to hear them leave before she got up and dragged herself to the kitchen to call 911. Wow.
This is,

it's incredible with this girl like that. Yeah, can't believe it.

She laid perfectly still. That's insane.
So Jamie's going to be taken to the hospital, and we'll talk about her fate here in a moment. Mom, Kimberly, the autopsy shows 36 blows sustained.

Basically,

just she was eviscerated. I mean, her skull had been split nearly completely in half by machete blows.

This is

no restraint in the attack. I mean, this is someone with all of their strength just hacking someone with a machete.

Wow. They said that

all of the injuries she had, although they were all horrible and irreparable, none of them had been lethal. She bled to death after all.
What?

After all that, this poor woman couldn't even be put out of her misery. She had to bleed out.
Sam.

They said that they figured that she'd likely been awake and aware of what was happening to her through most of the attack. Imagine being feeling that.
So fucking terrible at this that you,

your job to kill some, literally, you,

oh my God, you're so bad at this. So fucking awful at this.
And it's torture at that point. Just hacking and hacking and hacking.
This poor woman

getting no relief. Now, Jamie at the hospital, she survives.

Incredibly, she survives. This kid is tough, man.
Did they find the piece of her foot to put back? As fuck, we'll get into all of that stuff here. Jesus.
A surgeon said that the...

Basically,

part of her foot was amputated. Her jaw was fractured.
And some of the stab wounds came very close to stabbing her in the heart and killing her. So she is the luckiest kid in the world.

I mean, not lucky that this happened, but lucky to be alive.

She sustained other massive injuries, was struck at least 18 times with a knife. They said basically no part of her body was untouched.
She was stabbed all over the place. Stabbed everywhere.

Her skull was split open, and like I said, jaw shattered and everything like that. They said that her wounds were caused mainly by a large, sharp object, possibly a machete.

So

the cops want to find who did this. You walk into a house, you see an 11-year-old in a pile of blood and a woman who's hacked the shit in her own bed.
An 11-year-old that gives you that story.

Whoever did this is dangerous. That's what I mean.
Either they're dangerous or this kid is the best at staging a murder of all time. Yeah,

100%. I'll stab myself.
I'll just miss my heart. I'll cut my foot.
Like, it's impossible.

Real good at this.

The cops investigating, all they get from jamie is because this happened quickly and in the middle of the night under a dim cell phone light this all happened by wow so all she says is i saw a white man yeah i know at least one of them was a white man and there was more than one yeah that's all she knows um that's it so basically the local police state agencies everybody launch a massive they don't even know what they're looking for they're looking for a white guy in new hampshire which i mean that's throw a rock you're gonna have one so luck.

Yeah.

So, and it's as soon as this gets out into the public, which is the next morning, there is so much pressure to solve this yesterday. These people are terrified.

I mean, we're talking kids don't go to the bus stop by themselves anymore. I mean, it's this town completely flips and gets all about security.

So it's, it's wild. Um,

the investigators are hoping these little things,

like it's a white guy and there's a machete, that they can piece something together. Yeah.
Something.

And you'd think that a guy that, or guys that do this,

fingers crossed, hopefully they open their mouth and say something stupid

indicating that they've been a part of this. Yeah.
Now, I would think their first thought as investigators would be, where's the husband again?

Yeah.

Out of town. Yeah.
Okay. Okay.
Big house. Let's look into him and see if he's having any affairs.
Sure. And that's what any investigation would do.
You start with the people closest.

And if you got a guy who's not there,

you know,

let's start with him. So they, they, they,

before they can even, literally, by the end of the next day, before they can even look all the way, they barely have notified David, never mind, interviewed him or, you know, got a feel, put him on a lie detector, any of that shit.

They get a call from a woman who says she has a son, a teenage son, and she said this son had some friends over

and she overheard them talking and listened the whole time. And she heard some of her son's friends talking about the murder, saying they did it.
Oh.

Yeah.

So she called the cops immediately. So they're like, okay, hold off on the husband for one second here.
Being a nosy mom paid off right quick. Yeah.

And also, he obviously, if it was the husband, he would have had to hire somebody since he's out of town and there's more than one person. So maybe this is who he hired.

So they're looking into this and they want to know who these people are, who these kids are, and what they're all about.

So she gives them all the names and they're going to look into these guys.

Here are the kids that she's talking about. First is Stephen Spader Jr.

And he's actually of the third because his dad's a junior, but he still goes by junior. He's born in 1990.
He's about, you know,

just under 19 at this this point. He was born to a mother

who was addicted to drugs. So

he was adopted in Arizona when he was five days old. One of those, yeah.
He tested positive for marijuana and cocaine at birth. So they took the kid away.

And he was adopted when he was five, eight days old by a family that had no kids. So it wasn't like one of these families that adopts a ton of people.

They wanted one child and they adopted

a child. That's it.
They wanted to have a child so bad. So apparently his parents are loving.
They dote on him and

give him whatever they have basically is his.

That's the way he is. He's a very ordinary family.
He lives in Brookline, New Hampshire.

And his upbringing is kind of idyllic. I mean,

whatever you could want for a kid. You know, the parents are paying attention to him, help him with his homework, all that kind of thing.
He has has everything he would like to have,

doesn't want for anything.

His parents, Christine and Stephen, had a middle-class lifestyle. Everything looked average.

They had, like I said, idyllic childhood. Birthdays were a real big deal for Stephen.
I mean, it was all calling out all the stops. They had family vacations together.

Everything you could want as a kid that, like, we didn't have, this kid had. It's all right there.
It's all right there later. That's just being gifted to him by

very loving, great adults. He's just lucky.
Yeah. Lucky to get adopted.

So they also said education was a huge priority for them as well. They wanted him to get a good education and all that kind of thing.
The problem is Stephen exhibits problematic behaviors

from jump. He's got problems.
Okay. And like I said, we don't know what the genetic makeup is here of if that was the mother, who knows what the father was like.

And you mix those people together, and you might have some mental illness, you might have some lot of things going on here. So he basically was a real manipulative kid, everybody said.
Oh.

They said his adoptive mother said that wasn't always how he was, though.

He was a model child, was perfect until he reached middle school when she said overnight he turned into a monster that she could no longer even recognize as herself. Really?

Overnight in middle school. Just three sons and Cheez-Its to go fuck yourself.
To fucking Foster's Lager and Marlboro Reds. That's what he went to.

That's it. So

he became defiant, belligerent, and just a complete fucking nightmare.

I've never adopted a child or anything like that, but if this happens to you after you adopted a kid, you have to be thinking to yourself,

you know what I mean? Like, fuck this.

We didn't do this. Yeah.
Yeah. Not my fault.
Like, this didn't come out of me, this person, and he's acting like this.

Shit.

Should we have picked the blonde one or whatever? You know what I mean? Is there a way to do that? We picked the other one. Yeah.
Yeah.

But I know that that's. It's a concern policy.
Yeah. And I get that probably wouldn't.
You wouldn't feel that way after 12 years of having a child, I would hope.

But, you know, for comedic purposes, it's an interesting point to bring up. So

his parents. pull him out of public school, and this is fucking crazy.
They got him counselors, medication they took out an equity loan on their home what on t

to send him to an exclusive behavioral control program in 2008 he's diagnosed with bipolar disease at that point wow which is genetic too so yeah they enrolled him in a private school at one point i mean literally every dime they have goes into the skin and every drop every dime they don't have yeah every dime they can borrow yeah um now Stephen, he started smoking weed and snorting Coke and using pills in high school.

All of it.

Yeah, he's really, really into drugs and he drops out of school as well.

And his parents, they sent him to a therapist, did nothing, didn't do anything.

Just things got weirder as he got older, more outbursts. He was just known as a, just, he'd be cruel.
He's just an asshole, mean and manipulative and nasty.

Therapy and rehab are very similar to each other because you got to want it. Well, yeah.
You got to be involved. If you're being forced into it and you have no interest in fixing yourself,

it's not going to take. Well, it's all self-reporting, so you can

get around that. And if you're manipulative and you've been doing this your whole life, you'd also know how to manipulate.
So certainly. It doesn't help.

His school, whenever he was in school, he was a mess.

When he was a sophomore

in high school here, a friend of him, a friend of his said that he got real weird, like real dark and weird and just out of nowhere. In and out of treatment programs.

The one his parents sent him to was in Utah. So, you know, that cost a couple of bucks.

Yeah, it takes a plane ticket, too. Yeah, it's what I mean.
It's just to get him there is going to cost money. He shaved his head for no reason, just to be weird.

He had hair, though. He just did it to be weird.

He really got into weed and speed a lot, which then, you know, the weed goes to the side when the speed comes in. And he would cut himself and burn his own skin as often as well.
Oh, boy.

And he would talk of suicide all the time. Sure.
So this is an organic issue with the bipolar because he wasn't raised. He wasn't abused.
There's no,

this is organic, whatever's going on. Nature versus nurture.
This is certainly the nature part. It's really hard to overcome nature with nurture.
That's the thing. It's possible, but it's not.

If someone has enough of an imbalance, nothing you can do about it.

You being nice to them isn't going to help. Right.

It takes the other side wanting to be better because otherwise, it's just if you're just nice to a monster, the monster's going to take advantage of you. That's it.

All the bluey-themed birthday parties in the world aren't going to fix that shit. It's not going to fix it.
It's just not.

Wasn't Wubsey ain't fixing this shit. No, he's not.
Rolly Poglioli has no say in this shit. Sorry, DJ Lance.

He couldn't maintain friendships as well. Yeah.

And that was mainly because he would be manipulative and try to control everybody around him rather than be friends with them, which is a much different way of friendship if you're just trying to control everybody and manipulate them.

It's not to gain something out of the friendship. That's fucking weird.
This would lead to alienation and isolation and him being further pissed off and cutting and burning himself more.

And it's a psychology. Nobody wants to be around me.
It's a mess. So by 2008, he'd already dropped out of high school.
He described himself as a sociopath, which is nice.

I mean, you got to be clinically. All right.

Yeah, he's not exactly a psychologist. I don't think he has a degree.

But I think he wants to be a sociopath. He had an obsession with murder, serial killers, loved the Zodiac killer a lot.
That was one of his main jams there.

And openly talked about with lots of his friends wanting to, quote, kill people for fun.

Just for funsies, just to have a good time. 2008? 2008.
Just openly telling anybody he he knows. Super into serial killers and shit like that.

So he claimed to friends that he was a prospective member of the Crips.

This is a white kid from New Hampshire.

The Mont Vernon chapter of the Crips. Of the Crips.
Yeah, you know. Well, they have a Milford, you know, it's in Milford, but you can take a quick ride over there.
It's fine.

We've got a meeting every Wednesday. In Brookline.
Fucking New Hampshire.

Jesus. So this is what he, see, this is the type of guy he is.

He can't get people to like him just for what he is, so he makes up stories to make them at least afraid of him and feel like a big shot that

he can manipulate through bravado. If you're a, I don't know if, I don't know if, because guys don't act like that toward girls in high school.
No?

No, no, no, no. They'll do all that shit.
Then they'll act all sweet to the girls, even though they're a psychopath to the guys.

But I would like to know everybody, every guy has gone to high school with a few people like this. Oh, for sure.

A bunch of them that are just trying to make people think they're a badass so they will get left alone and stuff. Just fucking phonies.
Well, he told them that I'm a prospect.

You know, I'm patching into the crips here, basically, is what I'm doing. Yeah, a prospect.
You know, yeah. He said he had killed 28 people.

Oh, God. Which is a lot, obviously.

They've noticed that. Yeah.

28 Social Security numbers not being used sends up some red flags. It's more than Dahmer.
You know what I mean? Like, what are we talking about here?

People get caught that way. Wow.
And that he had participated in drive-by shootings in Massachusetts as well.

You know how they do. And

had disposed of bodies because they were like, how do you kill 28 people and get away with it? He goes, quarries, all these quarries that are around here.

Oh, construction crews will take care of it for you. Throw them down.
Well, no, no, these quarries are actually a place where the mob would dispose of a lot of bodies. Oh, yeah.

They're deep, deep, deep holes and abandoned shafts that are never going to be looked in, ever. Never, never, never, ever.
The guys that come in, oh, it's like an old abandoned rock quarry.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, not a fresh one.
Jesus, I think they come into work in the morning and be like, holy shit.

No, there's no more quarries. Those guys don't just clock in and go, ah,

somebody's been here again. No, no, no.
We got to dispose of people. Here, especially like Pennsylvania, there's millions of these holes.
And if you look at them, there's a lot of bodies.

Like the ice man. Kuklinski talked about.
He disposed tons of people down the mine shafts. Just throw them down.
Well, New Hampshire.

New Hampshire is where a lot of granite comes from. That's the granite state that shitloads of rock choirs.

In this area, it's not so much anymore. So you'd find an old shaft and dump somebody down there.

So that's what he knows where all those are, evidently.

He knows all the high school dropouts. Yeah.
Very good with hiding bodies. Okay.
Yeah. And he's killed more people than BTK, so he's good.

So by the summer of 2009, he has knocked up his girlfriend. Okay.
Excellent. We need more of him.
Convinced a gal that he's worthy of. Okay.

You know, it would be great about him if we had another one. That would be perfect.
Carbon copy, please. Yeah, carbon fucking copy.
So his parents were very supportive of him, though. Sure.

He was on track. Yeah, they told him about, you know,

we're adopted and things like you're adopted and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He actually, too, Stephen found out he had brothers at this point.
Yeah. That he didn't know about.
Oh, boy.

Sure, they're doing wonderfully as well.

He cried with his aunt during this time about being given away by his natural parents and saying he wants to be a dad and all that shit.

And they got to raise their kid right because he got given away. Take it easy.
During this summer, he also decides, you know what? Ah, the Crips, I tried, but

they're not letting me in soon enough. You know what I mean? Time to retire? I'm going to start my own gang.
Oh.

Or as he called it, Brotherhood, not a gang.

He kind of has it. It sounds more like a biker gang, but none of these people have motorcycles.
And I think only one of them has even a car.

But one's got a shaved head, and they're going with the Brotherhood. They're going with the Brotherhood.

He calls it, and

this kid just watched too much fucking WWE. Too much raw, too much Monday Night Raw for this guy.
He called the group the Disciples of Destruction, the DOD.

Really? Absolutely sounds like a wrestling faction. I think they had one probably at some point.

Doesn't it? It's what I mean. It's so

the disciples of destruction. I said, this guy's making like a, it's a wrestling faction.

That's all it is.

And it was a brotherhood, he said, that's met. It's serious shit.
You don't fuck around with the disciples of destruction. Right.
We destruct. We destruct.
He named himself president.

Well, I mean, if you're going to make it up, might as well. He assigns friends to other officer positions.

They develop codes and bylaws, and they write.

They're doing a whole thing. Oh, yeah.
He's got a whole computer document where he writes out all the rules and bylaws and the goals and mission statement of

the group and things like that. If he put that into like, put that effort into a business or something, he could make money.
What is he doing? High school. Or high school.
He just graduated.

I mean, he could have opened a business. There's no stores in Mount Vernon.
Go there and fucking open one. He's got a fucking EID for this and everything.
Wow.

Now, the DOD consists of about five people, by the way. Okay.
That's his hardcore gang. But he said, no, no, no, we're going to grow this.
Once you get your reputation, then other people want to join.

It grows. And eventually, we're going to be in the fucking money like all the gangs are.
Oh, so somehow from this, we will earn money. From here, we're going to figure out what those guys did.

Exactly. How do they get all that money?

How do they get all that money they're always rapping about? How does that happen? Why isn't there money happening? Where there's people here?

I gave it a name. I made a logo.
Yeah. Actually, they do have a logo.

Yeah, I'm the president. They do.
One kid, we'll talk about it. But after about a month after

forming the DOD,

he had plans for their initiation. Now, they're all in the gang, but this is like to...

This is like a company outing, like when they, like those retreats they go to.

It's like one of those things, a company retreat.

He and prospective members would carry out a home invasion where they would rob the house, chloroform the occupants, torture and murder them. Okay.

You know, that's just step one into this game. The Disciples of Destruction.
That's the reason.

Yes.

Stephen wanted to make sure everyone would prove themselves by participating in every aspect of it. We're all going to go in together.

We're going to do it together. If I'm going to put chloroform on somebody, you're going to put chloroform on somebody else.
This is how it's going to work.

He said that he wanted to make sure that nobody in his gang would be, quote, pussies or people who could just talk the talk. Pussies.
I need stone killers in this group.

So here's. No pussies.
Here is the crew he's assembled. Fantastic.
The crack crew of it's basically the Gambino family, obviously. They're going to just dominate the crime and everything else.

They should be making as much as U.S. steel any day now.

So first up is Christopher Gribble, G-R-I-B-B-L-E, Gribble.

Guy named Gribble, yeah? Chris Gribble. He's fucking 20 years old at this point.
Yeah. So shouldn't even be hanging out with 17, 18 year olds.
No. Shouldn't.
He should have other shit going on.

He is brought up, his parents are

a very deeply religious family, Mormons, New Hampshire Mormons, which is rare. Wow, yeah.
You don't find a lot of them up there.

So their whole family life is centered around Mormonism and church and all that kind of things.

Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a better way to shop with Thrive Market. ThriveMarket.com.
Oh, you know it.

The holidays are coming here, and it's a time for connection, not chaos. Yeah.
Between the baking, the gifting, the gatherings. No one wants to spend precious hours in a grocery store with strangers.

That's not what you want to do. And with Thrive Market, you can simplify the season.

Get yourself premium, healthy groceries for your entire family curated and delivered to your door so you can just skip the whole store garbage and save your sanity this holiday season.

They have premium pantry essentials all the way to non-alcoholic, bubbly, and nostalgic snacks. Thrive Market, put your holiday pantry on autopilot.
That's what they can do for you.

So, and that's what I do too, so I can focus on the good stuff and not grocery store aisles.

Between rapping and hosting holiday parties, the last thing I want to do and the last thing you want to do is go go to the grocery store to track down the seasonal and harder to find items.

Thanks to Thrive Market, I can grocery shop from the comfort of my couch, and I really do. I love Thrive Market.
We order this stuff all the time.

I love how you can find like the gluten-free options for sour. It's great stuff there.
You don't have to compromise health.

Absolutely, but you can still look for the good little holiday snacks that I've been getting from there.

Some of them I didn't even know existed, which is really cool. I'm like, wow, they have this.
This is great.

So Thrive Market makes it simple to keep things festive and healthy this season by restricting over 1,000 sketchy ingredients from the site. So everything you shop for is high quality and trustworthy.

Thrive Market creates healthy, high-quality groceries personalized so you can filter by die-free, high-protein, low-sugar, you name it. The smart sweets are really, really good.

And Thrive Market added their seasonal sour snowflake flavor. And that's pretty good stuff.
You probably want that.

The holidays are always a time to reflect and give back, which is also why we love Thrive Market's mission.

Through their Thrive Gives program, every membership purchased sponsors one for a low-income family, teacher, veteran, or first responder, because access to healthy groceries shouldn't be a privilege.

That's a fact. I love this.
They have a lot of great options for things. It's super easy to shop here right to your door.
There's no reason not to shop at Thrive Market. You can do it too.

Go to thrivemarket.com/slash slash small town murder to get 30% off your first order and a free $60 gift. Now back to the show.

Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you how to dress better with Quince. Quinceq UINCE.com.
You know it. Cold mornings, holiday plans.

This is when I need my wardrobe to work for me. This is the thing.
That's why we love Quince. They make it easy to look sharp, feel good, and find gifts that last.

From Mongolian cashmere cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, Quince pieces are crafted from premium materials and built to hold up without the luxury markup. And that's the thing.

You're going to get great quality stuff for an amazing price. Quince makes the essentials.
Every guy needs Mongolian cashmere sweaters for 50 bucks. That's amazing.

Italian wool coats that look and feel designer and denim and chinos that fit you the way you want them to fit you. Their outerwear lineup is no joke too.

Down jackets, wool top coats, and leather styles that are built to last. I got a sweet leather jacket for them that I've been wearing.
I like it a lot.

Each piece is made from premium materials by trusted factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production as well.

And what they do here, you say, how do they have quality stuff for so cheap? You cut out the middleman. You're somebody who's not making your clothes or wearing them and they're getting money.

So what's going on there? That's what they do. Cut out the middleman, all the traditional markups.
Quince delivers the same quality as luxury brands at a fraction of the price.

It's everything you actually want to wear, built to hold up season after season. I've gotten so much stuff from there.
I've been wearing this leather jacket all fall, the whole fall through.

I love it. You got your linen pants.
We are big fans of Quince. Get your wardrobe sorted and your gift list handled with Quince.
Don't wait.

Go to quince.com/slash small town murder for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too.
That's q-u-in-n-ce-e.com/slash small town murder.

Free shipping and 365-day returns, quince.com slash small town murder. Now back to the show.

For everyone who solves crime from their couch, knows more about forensics than their own job, and has trust issues with small-town sheriffs, Amazon Music's millions of podcast episodes are calling.

Just download the Amazon Music app and start listening to your favorite true crime podcasts ad-free. Included with Prime.

Isn't that the Dale, the neighbor in King of the Hill? Isn't he Gribble? Isn't that his? No fucking idea. I never watched King of the Hill.
I saw one episode of it once and was like, well, not for me.

Kept clicking.

I don't get it. Don't get it.
All right. Well, that's fine.
Fair enough. Don't sell propane, not from Texas.
Don't understand it. This is not my thing.
For sure. It's fine.
Last name is Gribble.

That's all. Okay.
It's fine. I just, I never got it.
It just wasn't my thing. I was like,

you couldn't follow The Simpsons with that. It was like, that's nowhere near as good as that.
You know what I mean? It's different, yeah.

it's different meaning not as good or smart or yeah but just anything i don't know it felt smart because it was like uh because it was smart judges yeah fantastic it was smart dumb like family guy i thought yes i thought it wasn't that's what it is yeah it's dumbing and and it's like uh i don't know it took culture references and like uh uh

showed how the the

the the hillbilly is accepting it and how he's pushing back on it and then at the end of the episode, every week, everything was fine. Yeah.
It was awesome. I think that's where I checked out.

I'm just like, wow. And Dale Grimble's throwing pocket sand in people's faces.

Sounds good.

I know it's beloved because it came back again and people love it.

You're not exactly stepping out and all in here. It's a beloved show.
Yeah, yeah. The new ones, though, are not good.

Everybody grown up sucks.

Just because it's been long doesn't mean they have to mature. It's a cartoon.
It's a cartoon. We can keep them young for nine Simpsons since 1984.

He's been nine years old.

Bart Simpson and me are the same fucking age.

Bart Simpson's had a dog that lived and died, and Bart's still the same age. Still the same age.

Homer hasn't had a fucking, well, he's had about 12 coronaries, but he hasn't had one that killed him yet, really put him on the bottom. He still has three hairs.
Still has them.

So

that would be a Big Simpsons episode. Homer loses one of his three hairs.
Two hairs, actually.

It's thinning. He's like, no, Marge.

So Chris Gribble,

basically, he has a hard time with these strict expectations set by his family. They expect him to be not only smart and courteous and kind, but also like

holy, like, you know, pious and

religious.

Religious and everything. That life of cleanse.
Yeah. Yeah.

He is homeschooled for a while as well.

He was apparently working with his church to become a missionary during this time period. So I'm either going to be a Mormon missionary or a disciple of destruction.
I haven't decided yet.

I'm flipping a coin. Not sure where I want to be in life yet here.

Now, he was, Spader and he had both been Boy Scouts. That's how they met.
Oh, is that right?

They were Boy Scouts together, where they built a shed for the Brookline Transfer Station as part of an Eagle Scout project together.

So these aren't the backgrounds of normally kids who start gangs, really, or they don't have to start gangs.

Now, he had, Chris Gribble had some indications of some mental health issues as well, and also some just issues of being a shithead, including incidents of animal abuse when he's a kid.

That's a bad sign all of that. Gribble or Spader? Gribble.
Gribble. I don't know.
Gribble now.

He found it also

hard to fit into normal school environments as well. That's why he's homeschooled for a period,

displayed some disturbing behaviors like the animal cruelty.

He does tell all of his friends that he has been consumed with the thoughts of murder since childhood. Good Lord.

Again, he's obsessed with serial killers and really just obsessed with the idea of murder.

Now, he doesn't want to go out and do something on the outside.

His murder goal is much closer to home. Oh, He fantasizes from the time he's a small child about killing his mother.
Oh, he hates her specifically.

This is Oedipus gone crazy. Never mind, fuck her.
I'm going to kill her. You know what I mean? This is crazy.
So

he has all this hostility, and a lot of that is because of her. Basically, she's the disciplinarian in the house.
Okay.

And he is upset about it. I guess she would, and she admits to it, she would spank him a lot.
Oh. She'd beat him whenever there was a problem.
Okay.

Yeah. His mom would,

she talked about breaking wooden spoons on him and shit like that.

Which, I mean, if you're Italian, you've had that done 30 times too. But it's less normal in the Mormon faith in New Hampshire than it is if you're an Italian kid in New York.
It's just expected.

It's expected. I'll bet the murder or the Mormon community embraces some corporal punishment, don't they? Probably.
It seems like. I have no idea.
It seems like a. Not sure.

Seems like like an organization that would.

Yeah. While they're smiling.
Yeah.

While they keep sweet about it.

Yeah.

Wow.

So he considered it also.

His mom, and this is fucking weird. I don't know why his mom would do this.
His mom would insist, whether he wanted to or not, on popping the pimples on his back.

What?

She'd say, I'm popping your back acne right now. I don't want to, mom.
And she wanted to get in there. Now, that's

obsessive.

Every woman's obsessed with popping everything that comes out of your body. So that I don't understand.
But you should do that to your husband. Leave your kid alone.

Leave your little boy alone. You're making him feel weird.

But also at the same time, he complained about things like, and this, he was very mad about this, like when he spoke to a therapist, the fact that he was, as a kid, forced to vacuum the house.

Those are called chores.

Those are called chores, my friend. That's called chores.
What are you complaining about?

Yeah.

That's why a lot of people have kids so they

spread some

domestic slaves doggy do what you got to do yep he saw it he didn't think of it as like this is what you do you do chores for your family he saw it as a degrading punishment from his mother oh for Christ's sake he also saw the zit popping on his back as a form of punishment in his mind I'll go with creepy and weird but not not a punishment yeah no no no everything that they that happens to him basically he says oh, that's because they're punishing me.

That's why they're making me do it.

All right.

He,

wow. He told his therapist that he wanted to, this is about his mom, he wanted to, quote, cut pieces off of her and listen to her scream.
Oh, boy. His mother.

He also had wondered what it would be like to

throw her into a vat of boiling water

or smother her in sugar and tie her down to a hill of fire ants. Oh, one of the old trope.
Yeah. Yeah.

He's got like cartoon methods of ways of, yeah, and then they'll eat her and she'll just be a skeleton that'll fall down. You know what I mean? Like very this.

The amount of time that would take is crazy. Yeah, yeah.
Well, in a cartoon, it takes two seconds. Two seconds.
They're gone. Right now.
Eat them right away, like a piranha.

So

Gribble's family had taken him to see psychiatrists all over the place. Nothing.

One person here was a real expert too in the field of child psychology and these kind of violent kids and kids with weird fantasies.

He told her that he felt the potential was in him to become a serial rapist. Sure.
So I feel like I could just rape and rape and keep on raping. Please don't isolate that, by the way.

That comes in. handy later for everybody.
I'm just encouraging you. Yeah, he's like, I just feel like I could just do it.

She just brushed it off as like blowing off steam, though. Yeah.

I don't think so. He also said he hated his parents, especially his mother, and he said, I'd like to see them both dead, if I'm honest with you.
Okay.

So she sits down with a young man who says, I'd like to indiscriminately rape people and kill both my parents. And she was like, ah, teen angst.

That was her answer to that.

She told the parents about what he had said and then said, he's just blowing off steam. You You know, boys will be boys.
Boys will be boys. Wow.

She likened the outbursts to a child threatening to kill someone in a fit of temper. I'll kill you or something.
It's not real. Oh, yeah.

But the weird part is, he's sitting in an office calmly reciting this to her. So

it's not him snapping or anything.

She said, in her opinion, he wasn't a danger to himself or to others. He's fine.
Okay. Keep an eye on him.
So then Gribble decided he wanted to become a Marine. Yeah.

Which

that might be the place for this guy. Maybe, but if he can kill him.
You have no discipline and you want to kill people.

Both of those things could possibly be molded there. If he can adhere to rules of engagement, possibly.
That's the problem there. Can he do that or not?

He was a part of a U.S. Army Cadet Corps group that met in Nashua.
He won academic and good conduct honors while part of the group,

but dropped out in 2008 after failing a training course.

So they said all of his friends said around 2008, that's when they started to see him be a completely different person in 2008.

They also described him as always struggling to fit in with kids his own age, which is why he hangs out with 17-year-olds.

He's cooler to them.

He would tell his friends that he saw himself as a, quote, destroying angel.

Okay, fallen.

Wreaking destruction.

And told a friend that he hated his dad and wanted to kill him, too.

Yeah, he had first met Spader in the Boy Scouts. They lost touch for years, but then reconnected in 2009.
And as you know, they have the same interests. So crazy.
Murder and such. Hey, how you been?

Well, think about killing. Me too.
Wow, amazing. Your mom's

not my mom, but somebody else. I mean, hey, good enough.
Let's have a Coke. Yeah, let's do it.
Crisscross. I'll kill your mom.
You do this. yeah we'll do throw mama from the terrain here crisscross

crisscross

love that shit so um gribble yeah said sure he's he's a gribble's a follower too that's the other thing he's trying to be a follower and spader's wanting to be a leader so hey look at us so yeah fucking symbiotic symbiotic relationship symbiotic it's symbiotic uh

yeah yeah

that's why i said it yeah so good

Then there's Quinn Glover.

Quinn Glover.

Quinn Glover, who sounds like an annoying star of a Netflix series that I would never watch. You know what I mean? Starring Quinn Glover.
But he's 12 and he just won a Grammy or an Emmy or whatever.

Yeah, some shit. So everybody loves him because he's adorable.
It's like set in space or something, and Quinn Glover stars. I don't know.
And he's so cute.

How can he say the lines? He's so young. He's just so cute.
And he's so good. Quinn Glover is 17 years old at this point in time.
He's described by his friends as, quote, a really nice guy. Yeah.

And he also said that Quinn hates himself when he's angry. He hates to that he gets mad at himself for even getting angry.
He just wants to be a real nice guy. That's fair.

One of his friends said that Glover would always end up putting himself down and he would hurt himself to help somebody else. That's what a friend said.

He's just overly destructive, codependent type of thing. Yeah, he just doesn't care.

Now, this guy had met,

his friend had met Quinn Glover when they were in a band together called Questionable Content.

Okay. Okay.
It's not a bad, not a terrible name for a bunch of teenagers. That's not terrible.
It's a lot of

people, but okay. That's the problem.
Put that on a marquee. Chew it down.

Yeah. So he never had any trouble.
One of his friends said, quote, he never really had trouble with other people. Maybe with himself, but not with other people.
He ain't violent.

He's He's lost his temper, but he hates himself when he's angry.

Now,

I won't like me when I'm angry.

I don't like me when I'm angry. That's a different hulk.
Different hulk completely.

Hulk smashed his own shit. He just starts breaking his own house apart, wrecking his coffee table.
That's Hulk in therapy. Ikea coffee table smash.

Hulk just going off. He's laying on a couch just going, I don't like me when I'm angry.

You know, I don't like me when I'm angry. They're like, I understand.
Ah, it's so funny. Picture guy writing shit down while he's talking.

Real calmly. Hulk smoking.
I don't like me when I'm angry. You know what I mean?

Have you tried one of the

breaking rooms? Yeah, I do it to my own room. Yeah, it's...

I live in rubble at this point. It's just a pile of rubble.

So funny. Broke it all.
Broke it all, man. That comic book.
That's the comic book. That's much more relatable.

Dude, if comic books were like that, I would read them because I'd be like, oh, I feel that, Hulk. I feel you, brother.
I got it. Damn, dude, I hate myself too, Hulk.
You got me right there, buddy.

Yeah, brother. What are you going to do? Yes.
Smash your own shit, Hulk. You deserve it.

There goes my hero. We deserve it, Hulk.
We deserve it.

Oh, the Hulk for people with low self-esteem. Break that table.
You got enough money to buy another. Let's go.

New comic book, Low Self-Esteem, Hulk.

Just breaks all the shit she made him buy when she leaves. You see him sitting in a destroyed room of rubble with just his hands under his chin, just like sad.

One lonely tear.

Well, that's Hulk. Low self-esteem Hulk.
I don't think it would have been as big of a hit, but I would have liked it more, I think. I'd have read it.
He sold two already.

Now, you might wonder, how the fuck does this guy get involved with these two dipshits? Yeah, what's his problem? Gribble is his father. Well, he is a super follower.
He's also a Mormon. Oh.

That is how he met Gribble through the Mormon church together.

They're passing at the urnal. He goes, oh, I got those same underwears.
There we go. I got your underoos right here.
And then, so

now we're buddies. That's how being a kid works, too.
Smallest thing. Hey, we're friends now.

You got the same thing I got. It is.

That's what it is, though. You like Cheetos? I like Cheetos.

Now we're friends. We're playing together.

We're going to play golf in our 60s. And if you live on the same street, you're best friends at that point.
Never mind friends.

So next up up is William Marks. Billy, he goes by.
Old Billy Marks. Billy is 17 years old as well.

Glover, Quinn Glover and William Marks went to high school together and lived in Amherst. So that's how he knows Glover.

He's in with Glover. Glover met Gribble.
He's in with Gribble. Gribble knows Spader.
And now somehow they're all going to be the disciples of destruction. Wow.
These idiots.

Milford, New Hampshire, whatever the fuck.

Yeah, they're all Amherst, Brookline, Milford, Mont Vernon, all this whole area.

Now, Billy Marks is known as always being a malcontent who

wants nothing to do with the right thing. Whatever the right thing is, he wants to do the opposite.

Another family who tried. They put him in therapy.
They did everything that you tell parents you're supposed to do when a kid's acting out. And nothing worked.
Wow. Couldn't get anything to work.

In a poem penned by Billy Marks,

he says, quote, I always keep an axe by my side, looking for my next homicide. Oh, boy.
So he's a terrible poet and a psychopath. He's, yeah,

he's ICP.

They'll come up. Don't worry.
You don't think ICP is in this episode?

They're in this episode. Don't you worry.
I can smell these boys already. I know what they are.
I can smell face paint and fayo right now.

These are little dirt heads that don't take showers, but every three, four days. And they can.
They can do it much more frequently. Rolling around in the mud.
Yeah.

Just having a good time. And

what's the difference? I didn't go outside yesterday. Oh, so Marks' father, James, said his son suffers from depression and in June of 2009 had stopped taking his medication for his depression.

Oh, boy. Went cold turkey off of that, which isn't great either, depending on what medication it is.

The father also said he tried to keep his son away from Spader as well, from Steven Spader. He goes, I saw you you

piece of shit. And he goes, I tried to say, because they had just met in April through Billy Marks.

And he said, I saw that kid and said right away, that guy's trouble, but he wouldn't listen. Billy Marks wouldn't listen.
He went and hung out with him. When a kid's 17, it's very difficult

to tell him he can't hang out with someone. You can't watch a 17-year-old all the time.
You just can't.

They had some brushes with the law over the summer as well, little things, little, you know, kid shit, nothing big, vandalism and stuff like that. Then there is Stephen's best friend.

His name is Autumn Savoy. Yes, he's a

name is Autumn Savoy. Yes, okay.

That's just what his parents named him. That's how much they love the fall in the North.
There it is. You're named Savoy's Autumn.

They love it. They love it.
They're like, maybe he'll grow leaves and they'll fall off in the fall and we can look at it. Some orange and brown ones, and I will love him for it.

I will love him even more.

So, like I said, Autumn Savoy, Stephen's best friend.

So, Christopher, Quinn, and Billy were friends with Steven, but Stephen's best friend is Autumn.

He considered, Stephen considered Autumn to be more like his brother than his friend.

They have been friends forever.

Autumn knew about Steven's talk about gang membership and all that shit, and he knew it was bullshit. I mean, he's the best friends with the guy.
He knows he didn't kill 28 people.

When did you kill 28 people? We went together every day for the last 15 minutes. That's what I mean.
We went to the pizza place. You walked home and killed a person and dumped them down a quarry.

I don't think so. I'm down.
On your back.

Yeah, you put it on the back of your huffy and fucking went out there.

So Steven invited Autumn to join Christopher Billy and Quinn Glover in the Disciples of Destruction. Obviously, Need my main guy here.
He said, That's okay. I don't really want to join a group.

He said, but I will design your logo for you. Oh, Autumn.
Look, guys.

Listen, I'm not much of a gangbanger, but

I got MS Paint, and I'm ready to use it here. Let's get after it.
And branding is very important when it comes to gaming.

It's iconic. You got red, you got blue, you got, it's a very iconic.
What color do you use? Hell's Angels have their own, like, you know, that

yellow and red together just fucking pop on the black leather.

You know, yeah, you know what their logos look like. So the logo turns out to be plain and nondescript.
The logo consists of a backwards D followed by an O, followed by a D.

So, you know, the Ds are facing different directions. Right.

Very creative. Symmetrical, James.
Took him one click of the mouse to go, well, let's reverse that D. Hey, done.
Perfect. Hey, guys.
Mirror image and Yahtzee. Look at that.

Now, the gang here, they sit around, they talk about the people they admire.

The people they admire are the Manson family,

the Zodiac killer,

because he got away with it for so long and still has.

And also they claim, well, you don't have to claim, you can just proclaim yourself juggalos as well. They're all juggalos.
I mean,

why form a gang when you're already in one? You're already a juggalo. What is the difference at this point? Jesus.

So on October 3rd, 2009, the day before the morning when Jamie calls 911,

Stephen... tells Autumn, his friend, that he is going to be busy that night, got plans.
I'm, quote, doing a job. Right.

Steven said that he planned to kill someone on this job, and Autumn was like, get the fuck out of here. He's been hearing Steven's bullshit for a decade.
He killed 28 people.

He's going to kill this one. He's a murderer.
He's a big, tough guy. So Autumn's like, okay, sure, buddy.
Yeah, all right. You're going to go sit by the waterfall and smoke weed.
Shut up.

I got a job tonight. Yeah, he assumed the job would just be a robbery.
He's going to break in and rob some shit. And if he hears a noise, he's going to run out like a scared little girl.

You know, that's all it is.

Then

they just, we find out in the weeks leading up to this job, they were trying to figure out chloroform.

Oh, how to make it and how to use it.

Okay, that's what they were describing. They were saying they wanted to use chloroform to incapacitate victims, then tie them up so they could be easily moved to other locations

so they could torture them for financial information and then kill them, obviously.

Okay. You want to get all the passwords and the pin numbers and shit first before you.

Yeah. What's your yeah, what's the pin on your fucking chase card? Okay, we need that first.
I'll kill you until I get the information. Wow.

So they discussed,

Spader had discussed

lots of things of how we're going to use chloroform to kill and steal and do all this shit. Now, late night, October 3rd, going into the morning of October 4th here,

Glover, Quinn Glover, and Spader exchange a series of text messages.

And in the text messages, Spader is trying to get Glover into joining the home invasion that they had talked about. Yeah.

Noting what items Glover should bring with him also. Like, you need this and that.
You know, we all got to bring some stuff here. Yeah.

I'll pool in. We're a gang, after all.
So at the beginning of that exchange, he discussed this. He says, quote, this is a text, quote, it's Stevie.

Now, a guy, I'm going to just say this: a guy who wants to murder all these people, you can't call yourself Stevie.

You just can't. It's just ridiculous.
It's dumb, yeah. It is.
It's like Stevie, like the guy in the documentary, was too old to be called Stevie. Yeah, it was out by now.

It was out by now. But no, he says it's Stevie, which right away I'm like, you little fucking dork.

It's Stevie. You got to get out soon because C-U-Z-Z, we ready, we need the completion of D-O-D to go on.

Yeah.

So he's calling him cuz like cousin. That's what he says.
Yeah, exactly. No, no, no, he's not.
He says, like, because.

Really? You need to get out soon, cuz we ready. We need the completion.
Cause, because we're ready, we need the completion. All right.

I think is what he's going for there, but he spelled it like that because he's like, I've seen gang people spell it like that. I should spell it like that, even though they mean something else.

So this is on Saturday, October 3rd.

Wow.

Okay. With Austin or Autumn Savoy's help, that's his friend there.
Spader used Savoy's computer to get on the internet to research how to make chloroform.

I'm going to go home and get on the internet and look for the recipe real quick, guys. Yeah, I got to, you know,

that's banana bread.

Yeah, you're not a killer. Stop.
Nope. Stop right there.
Yeah, that's banana bread. That's, oh, what is that? Yeah.

Yeah, homemade pretzels. That's not what I'm looking for.
What is that?

It's basil that goes on the confrontation. I thought it was just lettuce.
I had no fucking idea. I guess those might taste better elsewhere.

So

he told, Stephen Spader told Autumn Savoy that he and Chris Gribble needed the chloroform for a robbery.

This is the same time when Stephen told Autumn that he was going to do a job later that night as an act of initiation for him and the other DOD members.

Okay, then Spader conducted similar internet searches on how to make chloroform later in the day on his own home computer. I want to make sure to have as many evidence trails as possible to me here.

Yeah.

Yeah, he was searching for chloroform manufacturing instructions. The searches on his computer occurred at 8.40 a.m., 2.40 p.m., and 5.50 p.m.

Every few hours, he's going to to go check it out again.

The searches on Steven's computer occurred at 4.20 p.m.

that day. So he did the other searches on Savoy's computer, on Autumn's computer.

From the research he did here,

wow, he didn't find out much. So he was trying to figure out how to do this.

Now, when he met Quinn Glover later in the afternoon, he gave Glover a list of ingredients for the manufacture of chloroform.

We need all this stuff. Here's a shopping list.
Yeah.

Can you get this? He told Quinn Glover that he thought they, meaning me, Chris, you, and Billy Marks, could gather all these ingredients and probably make this chloroform.

And if we do it all separately, they can't piece it together. But if we get it all, one person getting it,

we look like an asshole.

Exactly. But if we each get a piece of it, then it's fine.

So, wow.

Prior to now, while all this is going going on, he tells him also that Chris is trying to make chloroform, that he needed ice for it, which I did not know you needed ice for chloroform, but I don't know anything about chemicals.

You got to stir that?

Woof. That Saturday night, Chris Gribble obtained or tried to get some acetone from his girlfriend and his mother.
Now, acetone is like nail polisher motherfucker. Yeah, that's easy.
Yeah.

Yeah, so you can get that. So rather than go to Walgreens, he decides the only source of acetone is my girlfriend or mother.
Yeah.

In a series of text messages exchanged between Spader and Chris Gribble the same night, just hours before the murders and all that happened,

they discuss their efforts to assemble the group and get supplies, including the acetone.

Gribble says to Spader, quote, hey, man, I'm trying to get some acetone to clean something off, and I don't have any.

Any way we could just get some at Walmart or something on the way to Jill's, who's a friend of Jill is Stephen's girlfriend, we'll say. She testifies later, so it's fine.
The username.

Then that's at, what is that, 10.16 p.m. Then at 10.25 p.m., Spader texts back, all right, well, I'll try.
I don't know where Bill is, but he's coming,

as is Quinn. So that's Billy Marks and Quinn Glover.

Two minutes later, Gribble texts back, cool, ought to be a good party.

Good party. Remind me to show you the new pocket knife I picked up from a friend.
That's a Boy Scout knife, by the way.

Steven texts back. Word up, dude.
Word up, dude. Word up.
Word up in 2009.

Word up. Yeah, what are you? What was this, 1991?

Who's

the word? Cameo. Yeah, cameo.
Jesus Christ. Come on, kid.
You already want me as fuck.

Yeah.

Word up, dude.

Oh, that's fucking tough. Oh, I'm so glad I've never typed that in my fucking life.
Word up, dude. Nope, never.

To have it come back on you while two comedians make fun of you for three hours. That's

rough, man.

Jesus.

So at 10.42, Chris Gribble back to Steven. Okay, I'm going to Ashley's right now, which is Chris's girlfriend.

It's these guys have girlfriends. Why do they give a fuck about doing anything about

the fuck? If you're 20 or under and can get a girl,

your life is fine. That's That's what the fuck? Go get a shit job somewhere.
It's 2009, wherever the hell that is, and fucking hang out with your girlfriend and get laid.

That's what, that's what kids do. What's wrong with you? What are you doing, man? They're not social outcasts.
They're not any of that shit.

It's crazy. So I'm going to Ashley's.

Anything I should bring to the party, extra set of warm clothes, maybe.

10.43 a minute later, Stephen back to Chris. Yeah, did you ever get those gloves from your dad?

J oh, just wondering. JW, cause, yeah, he uses cause B cause.
C-U-Z-Z, I can help with your truck. I can help with your truck.
Just wondering because I can help with your truck. Okay.

1048, Spader to gribble again here.

I, man,

well, I can borrow an extra set of gloves. And if you get a, if you get rope, cause we need to tie it to the bottom of the, we need to tie the bottom of the truck down.
Feel me?

I don't feel you.

I couldn't have felt you less.

Gribble then texts back, I got rope, and I got that blanket for if we get cold at the party.

Okay. Well, if you've got a truck that requires rope to hold the bed on it, don't use that truck.
That's a passion. That is not a road-worthy truck.
Absolutely not.

We're going to leave now. Did you get the rope? I never say that when I leave my house.
Did you put the truck bed seat belt on?

Yeah.

So then, Steven, back to Chris, word, any plastic garbage bags, she said we needed them to clean up after. So they're acting like they're going to a party.

Yeah.

And he says, yup, force flex. I got those good force flex bags.
Yeah, you could shove shit in there. It won't even poke out the sides, man.
We could put so many cracked solo cups in the shit.

Ah, dude, it's going to be awesome, bro. And keep all the stale beer inside.
You don't even know, man.

Yup, Force Flex. Then, Stephen, back to Chris.
Word.

He loves saying that. Well, have fun, and when Billy shows up, I'll text.

Now, Chris somehow is unable to secure acetone.

This is a 20-year-old man who has a whole day and can't acquire nail polish remover. Did you get the polish remover? No, man.
Oh, no. It's been a day.

You have no idea.

No clue.

He tried to get it from his mother. He told his mother that his explanation why he needed the acetone was to clean a knife.
I told him, mama, I had some shit on my knife.

Can I have your nail polish remover to get it off? And she said, no. I'll give you my fucking nail polish remover, you little weirdo creep.

I got a bad man last week. Yeah, no, this is, I need this to get around the cuticles there.
They're really bad aim with that polish.

So we pass midnight and go into the October 4th day here.

Billy Marks drives with Quinn Glover to Walmart, where they meet Chris and Stephen. Okay.
Because that's where you meet before you do something like this. You want to go to Walmart first.

Now, we don't know who drove the car, but we know the car they took was Gribble's 1995 Oldsmobile.

Nice.

Not a truck. Yeah, nice.
I had an 85. Sweet ride.
Yeah, bad stuff. Not great.

Do you know

which Oldsmobile it is? I don't know which one. Not sure.
88. I'm assuming a cutlass Sierra or something.

Because that's what I had. Now, Gribble has a Boy Scout knife.
That's his new knife, a Boy Scout knife. And Spader has a machete with him.
Yeah.

Now, Spader tells them on the way to their targeted area, their targeted house, that they were about to party, about to be party to, quote, the evilest thing this town has ever seen.

And he's not lying. It really is the worst thing this town's ever seen.

Now,

so they went in there, apparently launched this attack on the Kate's home, which, by the way, they had picked out ahead of time. Really? This was not rent because it's down a dirt road and by itself.

That's why. Oh, God.
So they said, no one will hear screams. We need to go to a house where no one will hear any screams.

So after the everything's everything's over, they show up at Autumn Savoy's house.

They believe they killed Kimberly and Jessica. Yeah.
And by the way, we'll have, they're going to spill the details. It's why.
How many people went? All of them? Four boys. Oh, boys.
Four.

Everybody but Autumn. Okay, Autumn said he's just an artist, obviously, as well.
Right, yeah.

I just got, I just got this computer aided drafting to Gertrude. Yeah.
Now, they believe they've killed the mother and the daughter and left no witnesses and no evidence. That's what they believe.

So they believe it's the perfect crime. Yeah.
This is is while investigators are going over the crime scene, doing all this shit. They are hanging out with Autumn Savoy before the sun comes up.

They are excitedly telling Autumn that they just killed two people.

And could they have some help from him in getting rid of evidence? And also give us an alibi, too. Say you're weird here.
Yeah.

Now, Autumn said he wasn't not surprised by all this, but he said, I'll help you guys out, sure.

So at 5.30 a.m.

or around 5.30 a.m., they gathered up the bloody clothes that they wore during the attacks, along with the stolen shit that they decided wasn't worth selling, things that weren't worth enough.

And they took them all, put them in a bag, and threw them in the Nashua River. Yeah.

Around this same exact fucking time,

or I'm sorry, a little bit later in the morning,

they're questioned. Gribble and Spader are questioned by police after they saw them stopped near an industrial park that had had a lot of burglaries lately.
So they stopped to question them

and they noted their identities and registration and told them to get lost, basically.

Okay.

So they had that.

That Sunday,

because October 4th is a Sunday. This happened early in the morning.
By the evening, Quinn Glover's at Mormon Study Group. Oh.

Going about their business. They thought they got away with everything.
Spader and Gribble go back to their houses to catch a few hours of sleep.

They wake up and Chris Gribble heads to a pawn shop to sell Kimberly's gold jewelry. They head to the Cash for Gold kiosk.
Cash for Gold. Cash for Gold kiosk at the Pheasant Lane Mall they go to.

This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp.com.
Absolutely.

You got to rewire yourself and you have to kind of redo your traditions. Therapy can give you the space to create new meaningful traditions, providing clarity amidst the holiday chaos.

Because it's a lot going on. The holidays, a lot of traditions.
People may have traditions in their family, while some people might have any. They might not have any.

Or they might just be starting traditions of their own. A new one.

Now's the time to reflect on what they mean to you or to rewrite those traditions and make your own, like perfecting a new hot chocolate recipe with the kids or continuing your great aunt's sweet potato pie.

Incorporating therapy into your new existing traditions can help ensure you take time for yourself during what can be a very joyful, but let's be honest here, hectic and sometimes lonely time of the year too.

Yeah, that's what you got to do. Share your, you know, you can do it.
Share with somebody. That helps a lot.
You know, I'd like to start some new stuff going on here, but it's hard to do.

So you got to, that helps. You'll see some coaching on that direction, too.
Absolutely. And therapy during the holidays is kind of essential.

You're going to have to deal with family members you might not want to deal with. You might be lonely.
You might have memories come up from past stuff. There's so much here.
Baggage. Absolutely.

So try BetterHelp Online Therapy in December. You can close the year right, close it strong.
BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S.

They also, they do the great, they do this initial match to get you your therapist so you can work and focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences.

They have over 12 years plus experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate, which they usually get it right is what that means.

But if they don't and you're not happy, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. for no charge.
It's amazing.

With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, having served over 5 million people globally, and it works.

They have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Get yourself started on this this December.
Start a new tradition by taking care of you.

Our listeners get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash small town murder. That's betterhelp.com slash small town murder.
Now back to the show.

And Gribble

told the guy that

he ended up getting $130 for the jewelry. Yeah.
He said that he got it at yard sales. That's what he told the guy at the kiosk.

Yeah, I picked this shit up at yard sales, trying to make a couple of bucks off of it. So $130 is what they got out of this big giant.

That's it. That's their big profitable gang heist is $130.

Boy, oh, boy. Then he drove home

after that and,

you know, just drove home. So later on in the afternoon, they went to a guy named Kyle Fenton's house and bragged loudly about murdering people there.
He's not even in the gang, for Christ's sake.

Is that where the dude's mom is at that heard it all? I was going to say, Mrs. Fenton is listening from the next room at this point.
She's like, my son knows dickheads. He knows assholes.

He told, Christopher Gribble told this young man that it was awesome when describing the crime. Wow.

Yeah. And Spader said that he couldn't wait to do it again.

It's great. Yep.
They had no idea that the mother heard all of this shit, by the way.

First of all, don't tell anybody. No.
Don't tell this kid, but especially don't

yell it loudly while other people are in the fucking room.

So she called the police right away. I mean, she was not fucking around.

So it turns out she wasn't the only one. Other people were calling the police too because they went around to basically everybody they knew and told them about it.
Wow. To brag.

That's how pathetic these fucking idiots are. And just pitiful.
Just awful, fucking disgusting people. Stupid, yeah.

Now, the friends weren't impressed they called the cops they weren't impressed they're like what the fuck is wrong with you people these guys killed people for 130 i don't want them near me i want the cops to get them fuck yeah so at that point they're like okay we got rid of the clothes we got rid of all that but we we showed way too many people the knives we used uh-huh so let's go bury them just in case just in case one of them says something they'll come back to us and we'll go i don't know what you're talking about we were just talking

yeah we don't even have the knives so uh they do that

go out to the woods and they bury the knives along with a pearl necklace that they couldn't sell

and the iPods that they used as lights. Okay.
Because they used the glow from an iPod to get them through the house. Not iPhone, iPod.

That evening, they're looking on the internet and they get on the Telegraph website and see that Jamie is not dead. And in fact, she survived and is expected to make it.
Oh, my God.

And

wow. Autumn, autumn then uh i'm sorry spader and and autumn then teased chris gribble about that you couldn't even kill a child ha ha ha

hilarious isn't it wow

um unfucking believable so uh anyway jamie is in the hospital at the children's hospital in boston they flew her all the way to boston for this this is not

wow uh two funds were immediately set up to help the family

one by a credit union at st. Joseph's hospital where Kim worked as a nurse, and the other by a Mont Vernon program called Neighbor to Neighbor.

And the organizer of that group said, on top of this unimaginable emotional burden, he, meaning David, the dad, certainly going to have a financial burden.

As a community, we wanted to ease the burden on him in any way possible.

So the woman who called is Carol Fenton. That is the Fenton boy's mom.

She called the police and said, I overheard this. And also my son came and told me that they said this too, because that kid's not a piece of shit.

And he went to his mom and went, they said they killed somebody. I don't like this.

Yeah, and so they had all done that.

This woman said they even showed off two knives and all that kind of thing. So now the cops are on the hunt for the disciples of destruction boys because they know their names.
They know who they are.

So they go looking for them

and they find Gribble and Spader and Autumn Savoy at Autumn Savoy's house. So they pick all three of them up.
At Autumn's house. At Autumn's house.

Marks and Glover, they also find them at their own houses and they come in too.

Now, Glover, he said that he was sitting beside a country road blindfolded, meditating and smoking a cigarette while all this was going on. Really? He said, they took off.

I sat here on a country road blindfolded while meditating and smoking. I don't know what they were up to.

Okay. That's what Autumn did?

No, that's what Glover, Quinn Glover said he did. Okay, all right.
He said, I didn't go. I was going to go, but then they left me on a country road.
Meditate. All right.
Yeah.

Then they were like, dude,

come on. We know better.
Tell us what fucking happened. So you could crack a 17-year-old pretty easily.
And he said, you know,

he said,

he said, okay, fine. He said he saw Gribble take his knife and put it on the right side of the throat of Kimberly.
He said, I turned my head away.

When I looked back, the knife was on the other side of her throat. So he's saying he cut her throat, but I didn't see the actual cut.

He said, quote, Spader wanted to break into homes, steal stuff, kill people, stay the night, and make scenes for the press with their bodies. Yep.

Yeah, he wants attention. He talked about eating people, roasting people, putting heads on steaks, making a scene for the press.
Although the, wow, that's a lot.

Jesus Christ.

He said, goes on to say, Spader asked me about the Zodiac killer.

I told him what I learned, that his victims were so random that he didn't stay long enough at the scene of the crime to leave any evidence.

And so he said that he kept bringing up the Zodiac killer, and he said that basically this was inspired by the Zodiac killer to not know these people and get in and out without leaving evidence.

Although he did it outside, which helps a lot too, the Zodiac.

So Gribble is a little more sophisticated here than Quinn Glover.

He's asked about his involvements, while his involvement in the crimes, while they're recording him. And he said, oh, I don't know anything.
The only thing I know, I saw in the 6 o'clock news.

I don't know anything about this.

I know.

Yeah.

He said for hours, two, three hours, he sits there, cool as can be, not saying shit, described himself as, quote, a gentleman. He's a gentleman.
I'm a gentleman, yeah. A real gentleman.

He said he's too chivalrous to hurt a female. I could never hurt a woman, he said.
That's crazy.

He said that he's honestly, he's honestly offended, number one, that you'd even think that I would do this sort of thing, but

I'm actually appalled at the situation that anyone could do that. And then you'd think it's me.
It's even worse.

He said, especially an 11-year-old child. What kind of a piece of shit do you think I am? What gentleman would? I'm a gentleman, I said.
Jesus Christ, watch me adjust my ascot. I'm a gentleman.

Didn't you just hear me say I'm a gentleman? Yeah, I just lit a Sherlock Holmes pipe. Gentleman.
Don't you get it?

When he was informed that Jamie actually survived and would probably be able to identify her assailant, he acted happy. He said, that's wonderful.
The child made it. Great.
That's great. Oh, wow.

You guys shouldn't have a hard time

solving this then. Good for you.
Yeah. They're like, hmm, okay.

Interesting. Then they tell him you know you're you're not the only one that was in there there's three other guys and they're all singing in the other rooms

yeah now whether they are or not you're going to tell them that yeah yeah yeah it's the wire thing when they walk the kid by with the bag of mcdonald's and he goes what the fuck are you doing man it was all him

so yeah that's what that's what they're doing so there's he said well i don't know what the hell they're talking about but i didn't do anything so if they're saying anything they're lying so not doing shit i'm innocent i'm innocent i'm innocent.

And then he said, I don't think I want to talk about this anymore.

And, you know, so

the cop tells him, you know, these guys are giving stuff up. And you know what?

What they're giving up is matching with what we already know, meaning they're not lying. We know.

He said, I don't know how else to tell you. This is your chance to give your version of why.
See, that's a nice little trick to go, we're beyond whether you did or didn't now. We know you did.

Now just tell us why, why, which is a homicide detectives use that all the fucking time. I don't know,

but just tell me why you did it. That way you're admitting it.
He said, because the why is what's going to explain it and change the perception of this whole thing, specifically of you.

We can only throw you the rope, man. We can only throw you the rope.
You have to grab it.

And tie it around your neck and go hang it from a tree is essentially what they're saying. But

he then told him the door is closing on your opportunity to explain what happened. happened.
And he said, I explained it. I am innocent.
I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

They challenge him with some evidence of people saying this and that. And he goes, none of that is true.
And he said, well, if you have all this evidence, why am I not under arrest? Yeah.

What's going on? You took me in to talk, and

I'm not under arrest here. Yeah.
So, you know, so after two and a half hours, the cop says, let's take a break. Everyone, let's take a break.
Bathroom break, everything break.

About 20 20 minutes later, they come back again, and they ask him if he remembered and understood his Miranda rights. And he said he did, and he wants to help with the investigation.
Okay.

So they start confronting him again with information about what took place.

And he said, then Chris said, I don't have to say anything.

No, you don't. You're right to not say shit.
And the trooper says, you don't. No.

And he said, so I don't want to. And the trooper said, what? And he said, so I won't.

And the trooper said, what does that mean, Chris? Yeah. Which I think it's pretty clear what it means.

But, you know, you got to have him say it.

Yeah. Yeah.
Direct. You have to ask specifically for a lawyer.
Yes. That's what it is.
Otherwise, they can keep talking. So

he said, I have a right to not say anything. And the cop said, absolutely, that's true.
And he said, so I won't say anything.

So the cop says, so what you're saying is you don't want to talk to us any longer.

And he said,

you have to speak.

You have to speak. In other words, you have to say.
You have to say that. Yeah.
That. And he said, yes.

And the cop said, this interview is over then.

And he said, yup. And he said, okay, at Chris's request, we're ending the interview and the recording.
17, 26 hours. So, okay.

At that time, they turned it off, ceased all questioning, and started to walk out. Fucking over.
Fine. That's great.

At that point, Chris said something to the effect of that he's he's just really tired and he's sorry. He just doesn't feel like talking anymore.
Not trying to be difficult. I'm just tired.

I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah.

And the trooper told him, hey, that's your prerogative. You don't want to talk.
That's fine. You don't have to.
Yeah. Totally fine.

So he's left alone in the interview room, as they do, to stew on his shit.

And the cop that was questioning him alternates between sitting at a desk directly outside the interview room and talking with the other investigators about the case in a different room of the barracks because they're all talking to people in different rooms.

At no point did Chris request to leave or anything like that. After about an hour, Chris leaned forward and called for this cop to come back.

He said, I want to talk to you. So the cop comes into the doorway of the interview room.
And

the cop says he had what he described as several separate conversations with Chris in a span of 15 to 20 minutes.

He basically, Chris first asked if everyone is still, if everyone is still here. All the other guys you picked up.

Yes. Yeah.

And he said he wasn't sure because I've been with you the whole time. What the fuck do I know what they're doing?

Yeah. He then told Chris that it had been a long day and that he was tired.
The cop said, look, it's been a long day and I'm tired.

Yeah,

I've had enough of you. So Chris said, dude, totally, I feel you.
And then he started talking about his family.

Just randomly started talking about his family, which if you're in a homicide investigation, any talking, any narrative someone will give you is helpful

to get something out of him. So it's like, okay, he's talking.
Then he asked the cop if his job was hard. Is your job hard?

And the cop said, yeah, it's pretty hard. You know, there's some stuff you got to say.
I got to try to get murder details out of a fucking child. Out of a child, you know, I have to have a juggalo.

I have to have a

gang member juggalo.

I had to, you know, see a woman's head split in half with a machete, stuff like that. Pretty gross.
And then I have to talk to a juggalo. So, yeah, it's pretty tough.
Yeah.

So then he started to ask the trooper more about his job and whether it was hard to deal with. And the cop said, you know, at times it is, but it's like any other job.
You take the good with the bad.

Then

Chris said that, you know, it must be... must be a lot.
You must see a lot in this job, and that much must be hard to deal with.

And the cop said, it can be, but you know, the real thing that's hard to deal with is when you, you know, can't find the answers why something happens. Oh, okay.
You know, that's hard to deal with.

My hardest part of my job is when I don't know who the murderer is. Could you help?

Any way you could help me with that? I mean, I always assume it's a juggalo, but you never know. Yeah.

So then Chris brings up the subject of the death penalty, asking whether the crimes that he is investigating right now are eligible for the death penalty. Oh, is he scared to die?

So the cop tells him that he didn't think so, and then explained what crimes were eligible for the death penalty.

So then Chris asked about the difference between first and second degree murder, and he explained that.

Following this conversation, the cop said that Chris said, you know what? Why don't you go get your recorder? I'll tell you anything you want to know. You know what?

If I'm not going to get the death penalty, I'll tell you everything. Fuck it.

So

the cop later on said he was very surprised by that because in his mind, the interview was over. It was done.
We were over.

And he said that he'd already decided not to tell us anything, and we walked out. So it's weird that someone would say, no, no, no, come back, change my mind.

So he said he reminded Chris that he didn't have to talk.

You don't have to do this.

Chris said, no, you know, I'm going to tell you everything. Okay.

So the cop said, okay, I got to get my auto, my recorder again, and we got to do all of that. He said that he did not want to speak with Trooper Ardini.
Didn't like him.

But he liked this trooper Encarnacio. He liked him a lot.
That's the guy he's been talking to and called him back. So he said, I'll talk to you, not the other one, though.
He has to fuck off.

Okay. So Encarnacio got

an audio recorder, came back in, and he said again, you sure you want to do this? Yeah.

And he said, I do. He's actually said, word up, probably.
Word up.

So he said, okay, turn the recording on, and this is what happened.

After that,

they get in there, and they inform him, your right to to remain silent still applies. They should have remirandized him, but he's in the state.
He hasn't even left the room, so you would assume that

it's still hanging in the air. But just to be safe here.

So, according to Gribble,

Stephen Spader masterminded the whole thing. In the days leading up to the crime, Spader and William Marks had scouted locations searching for a secluded property with no neighbors close by.

They said, look for something that's far enough away so no one hears screams.

They found what they were looking for at 4 Trow Road, which is the

Kate's residence.

So he tells the cops that they planned the attack, quote, for fun.

For funsies, yeah. Just for funsies, that's all.

Yeah. He said that

what they had all done was a, quote, a test to make sure we had the balls to do whatever. Oh, boy.

He said that he didn't know

no one, he didn't know who lived in the house, if anyone was home, and he didn't care. The plan was kill everyone and steal anything they thought they could sell.

Okay, so real good plan you got there, too.

He said that they planned to use chloroform to incapacitate anyone found in the house, and they were going to take the occupants elsewhere to torture them and kill them.

But the fact this all happened in the house because they couldn't make chloroform. Oh.
Because one idiot couldn't get nail polish around it. Right.

Unbelievable. One guy couldn't tell his mom, we're making chloroform, mom.

That's my part of the job.

I have to bring the acetone for the chloroform. Jesus Christ, man.

It's a real, what are those? A real potluck. You know, we all got to bring something.

So he later said that they learned how to manufacture chloroform through the internet at Autumn Savoy's house and that they needed acetone and bleach and that he was tasked with obtaining the acetone.

Couldn't do it. Couldn't quite get there.
Yeah. So he said, upon arriving at the house, it's very dark out there.
Right.

This is Gribble, Spader, Marks, and Glover. He wasn't sitting on a fucking road somewhere.

But Marks was the smallest and thinnest. So they said, okay, you're going to sneak in through those basement windows, you know, those narrow basement windows East Coast houses have.

You're going to break in through there, come upstairs, and let us in through a door.

that's easy.

So he breaks in, he gets into the basement. Once he gets inside the basement, he finds out that he's fucking trapped in the basement.
I am stuck in here. The door to go upstairs is locked.
Oh, no.

The windows are too high up. Too high to get in.

So he's now stuck in the basement.

Too high to get over, too low to get under. Wow.
This is a juggalo dipshit fucking kebab. That's exactly

why juggalos shouldn't murder.

Wow. So So he is fucked now.
So they go, oh, shit, now our guy is trapped in there and we can't get in. So then they figure, okay, by the way,

the alarm was broken this weekend. There was something wrong with the alarm on the house.
So it wasn't on the bottom.

That's why it's not on.

So they said, okay, fuck. So they go upstairs and

they go around the first floor and they find a window air conditioning unit and take that out. Okay.
And they can break in that way. They climb in through the window there.

They went and unlocked the basement door, allowing Marks to join them from the basement. They should have just left him down there.

At that point, they've been here for over a half hour

on the property. But there's no neighbors or anything to see anything, so they can do whatever they want as long as they don't wake anybody up.
They then disabled the lights through the breaker box.

They went into the breaker and

shut the fucking electricity off,

which is crazy.

They went from room to room using the light from their cell phones and iPods as a guide.

Just went looking for shit and looking for people.

There could have been 20 people in this house. They had no fucking idea what's here.
No idea. It could have just been an Airbnb where a reunion of Navy SEALs were having a weekend.

You had no fucking idea. I wish.

Hey, it's SEAL Team 6 fucking retreat weekend, everybody.

Watch out. We often go up to the woods in New Hampshire.

It's just quiet. It's just nice and quiet, you know.
And if anybody breaks in, we can torture them and take them apart.

Practice on our interrogation skills. Wow.

So they disable the lights and they go from room to room.

Then they get to the master. Okay.

God damn it. That's horrifying.
So

he said, Gribble said he wanted to kill someone for a long time, and he said he was disappointed that he didn't feel any emotion following this murder. Gribble said.
Yeah.

He said that, you know, he just didn't feel anything.

But he said he walked in, he found Kimberly Cates in her bed, Jamie Cates sleeping in the same room, but we don't know if they were in the same bed. I think they were.

So he tells police that after shutting off the electricity, going all through the house, they got to the master bedroom where Kimberly woke up.

He said Spader attacked her with a machete, just hacked unmercifully.

They said Jamie then jumped over her mother. So I think she was trying to fight them.
I think she was trying to fight them off. I really do.

And Gribble said he stabbed her in the face and chest.

He stabbed an 11-year-old girl in the face.

In the face. A girl, even.
That's even worse.

And also in her chest. He was trying to puncture her heart to kill her, he said.

Bad move, dude. You missed.

He is dead calm through this whole thing, too.

He is recalling. He could be recalling what he's had for dinner each night of the last week.

Imagine 18 layups and missing every one of them. You know what I mean? That's what this fucking loser did.
Yep. And now he's sitting here bragging about it.

He said that Steven Spader

just went into a frenzy and was kind of out of control. He said he was very controlled and precise, though, Gribble.

Which isn't a great thing to admit. That Stephen Colder.
That's worse.

He then described stabbing the woman here, Cates, with a long knife several times from one side of the bed while Spader swung a machete and stabbed her uncontrollably from the other side. Oh, Lord.

In her bed, savaged by two fucking idiots doing this. He said, the daughter jumped out of bed and bumped into him.
And he said, I immediately wrapped my left arm around her.

And this was after he'd stabbed her.

He said, then I threw her against a door and assumed she was dead. Yeah.
Because she hit the door, fell down, and pretended to be dead. She knew better.
She's like, I can't get out of this.

I got to pretend to be dead. You know what happens when you assume?

Oh, my, yeah.

Fuck.

He said, quote, I went for some sort of shot. I'm pretty sure it was a neck shot because I remember it being high, but I missed.

He said, at that point,

at one point, he said the lights were turned on and he looked at Spader and Spader was panting and completely out of control.

He said, the only thought that entered my head at this point was, quote, wow, this looks just like a CSI scene. Is that right? From the TV show.
Yep. He said it was interesting.

He called it interesting to see Spader stab Kate so deeply that he could see bone.

Interesting. He said it was a curiosity.
He said, like, oh, that's what bones look like. Oh, boy.

Dead.

That's a dead

souled individual, right? He's a bad person. Yeah.
Yeah.

Wow. He said also that although Spader had repeatedly stabbed the victim, she was still alive.
He said, Kimberly, also.

He said, so Spader then threw a pillow over her head because she was making raspy noises, you know, dying. Yeah, yeah.

Death rattle, yeah. He then describes Gribble going back to his side of the bed and taking action.
He said, quote, very carefully from the carotid artery I cut.

I had to adjust at one point because I got the angle wrong. I hit the spine.
I remember that. Ah, Jesus.
Ugh. Jesus Christ.

He said that he knew, he said, how'd you know what to do with all this while you were in there? The other guy's going crazy. You're calmly cutting carotid arteries.
What's up with that?

And he said he knew instinctively what to do.

I'm a sick fuck, is what he said.

Oh, my God. I bet him to start back.

Yeah. Now, Glover, who was not doing well with this scene, he's not doing, the other two aren't participating in any of the stabbings.
They're just there.

He went into the living room and waited for it to be over. He didn't want to see it anymore.
Yeah.

They said that throughout this entire thing, Gribble has an emotionless monotone

recitation.

Really? This is what happened. This is how.
Very matter of fact.

He spoke about gurgling sounds, and that's what prompted him to stab her in the throat.

He said, after the attack, we went and searched the house for valuables. They said, wow, you must, do you feel bad about this? And he said, wow.

Quote, Gribble stated his only regret was that he didn't kill the child because now she had to live with this. He said that if he realized she was alive, he definitely would have killed her.
Oh, boy.

You know, it's better for her, basically, is what he said.

That is insane.

So

he told them he wanted to kill for a long time. He said he was disappointed.
He didn't feel any emotion after the murder. He said, it's cool because it's different.

What are you talking about? The emotion of killing someone.

He said repeatedly that it's difficult to describe what he felt that night, especially afterwards, you know, like when he was leaving the scene.

He's like, I don't know what I don't know what I was feeling. He wasn't feeling anything.
That's the thing.

He also told police that he wanted to kill more people. That was the goal.
He said he wanted to use different weapons in the future, too. He said he didn't use a gun.

He said he wanted to use a gun because it's efficient. But he said, but I didn't have enough money to get a gun.
So I have a knife. I have a girl's Boy Scout knife.
That's what I got.

So Spader is giving his version of this in the other room.

He said, I don't know what you're talking about. What do you mean? What do you mean? He said, I don't know who did it.
And, quote, whoever did do it should get the death penalty. Oh,

they're bad people. Yeah.

You should fucking fry them. I don't care.
String them up. Oh, yeah.
So he's protesting his innocence. He's doing the whole, I don't know what you're talking about.

But it fades out pretty quickly. and he ends up going, all right, fine, I did it.
Okay. He's swayed quickly by their telling on you in the other room.
They said, you did it. Oh.
Yeah.

Well, then, yeah. So he said, okay.
And he tells the story with a sense of accomplishment, they said. Is that right? Oh, yeah.
Yeah.

When describing the events, he said, quote, how the little girl had screamed and struggled with gribble while he, meaning Spader, hacked up the mom.

Rather than showing remorse, he was upset with himself for making the mistake of choosing accomplices whose incompetence in leaving behind a living witness had led to him sitting in this chair. Wow.

Do you have any regrets? Yeah, I picked the wrong people, left the kid alive, and here I am. I got dumb shits around me.

Meanwhile, you're the one who bragged about it, and that's why you're sitting in the chair, dip shit.

The kid couldn't have fucking, she didn't go, it was Steven Spader Jr. I know him.
She didn't say that.

So, William Marks in another room, he said he heard the daughter cry, please, you don't have to do this.

Jesus. He said he heard Kimberly Kates trying to reassure Jamie that everything would be all right, like a good mom would.

He said Spader started hitting them with the machete. It sounded like a baseball bat hitting the mattress.
Oh, God. Good Christ.
He said he saw Jamie get thrown against the wall as she...

was laying in a heap on the floor. He said, as he was, Jamie was laying in a heap on the floor, Spader came over.

see, because Gribble didn't see this part. Marks did.
Spader came over and whacked her in the head with the machete and kicked her. An 11-year-old girl who you think is already dead.

He said that Gribble told him that he had slit Kimberly Cates's throat. So they have a good amount of people talking shit here.
For $140?

$30. $130.

Between four guys. That they didn't even split.
Gribble was just keeping it. He's just going to hang on to it? Yeah, that was his $130.

The rest of them was just for

to prove they weren't, quote, pussies. Wow.

So they go while they're interviewing all these four idiots who are all giving it up.

They then search all sorts of shit. They search Gribble's car, the getaway vehicle.
Inside the vehicle, they found an axe, a box of trash bags, ForceFlex,

a shovel, gloves, rope, camouflage clothing, and a pawn shop receipt dated for earlier that morning. $130.

This is an evidence. Yeah.
Put me in jail forever, kit, is what that's called.

This is the prosecution's favorite thing. That's what this is.
Oh, man. Then

they said they said they threw the shit in the river and told them where. Police found the bag wrapped around a tree a short way from where they dropped it.

And it got stuck on a tree immediately.

They're the biggest idiots ever, these four guys. They're jungalos.

Exactly. Exactly.

Later, Gribble then brought the police to the spot to dig the knives up. Yeah.

And they do. They dig them up.
They find now they have the murder weapons.

So as a result of searches

conducted as well, they found items linking everybody with the, quote, disciples of destruction.

Investigators recovered from Spader's computer the gang's bylaws and officer list.

There are four people in this gang.

An officer list? All of you are officers. There's only four of us.
What are we five of us? What are we talking about here?

They also recovered from Gribble's car a drawing of the DOD logo and recovered from Billy Marks's cell phone a photograph of the logo that had been marked on the defendant's bare back.

So somebody drew it on him. Not a tattoo, but it was drawn on his back, on Stephen Spader's back.
So he had that picture. So, charges.
There's going to be some charges. Oh, boy.

Gribble and Spader have been charged with first-degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder, and second, and attempted murder. Sorry.

Spader is accused of being the driver in Gribble's car. That's how much of a pussy Gribble is.
He let another guy drive his car to the murder, which is just weird.

Gribble is accused of the stabbings and all that kind of thing. And then we're going to get charges on Marks and Glover as well.
We'll talk about those.

Now the town reacts to this. Like I said, last murder occurred in a bar in 1840.
Right.

They don't expect. It's 100 and fucking forever ago.
150 years later. It's 169 years later.

Unbelievable.

So the New Hampshire senior assistant attorney said, quote, this type of murder does not happen very often. This is something out of the ordinary.
Certainly, yeah.

Yeah, the director of marketing and communications for the hospital Kimberly worked at said she worked part-time in our material, our maternal and labor department, and also in our emergency department.

The staff is upset about it. They were pretty close to her.
Oh, I'll bet. Yeah.
Yeah.

The Nashua Telegraph, their senior photo editor for the newspaper, said the people up here aren't used to this kind of thing. This never really happens.
Yeah.

No, shit.

They said...

They said any violent crime in this town is extremely rare.

This guy said, this is the guy who works for the newspaper, said, I think we may have had one assault in town in the last 10 years. One assault?

In 10 years. Yeah.
A decade. Wow.
Remember that assault back in 99? Like, that's crazy. Somebody punched a mass hole in the mouth for coming up to see our leaves.

Leave our leaves alone, you son of bitch. Clogging up the damn paths.
So Austin, or I'm sorry, Autumn. I keep going to call him Austin for some reason.
In one publication, it said Austin was his name.

And everything else, it's Autumn. It's because nobody calls a dude Autumn.
No, and his name is not Austin. It never was.
It's just stuck in my head as Austin, and it's not. It's Autumn.

So Autumn said that he hid evidence and concocted an alibi for his friends. He said he admitted to helping them dump bloody clothes in the Nashua River.

And he said, out of curiosity, he conducted the additional internet searches for chloroform on his computer. Yeah.
Because he said, they said, you looked for chloroform after they left your house.

You had multiple searches. And he said, I don't know.
I was curious. They were talking about it.

I still wanted to know. It was in my fucking saved in my history.

So I just said, fuck it, it i'm gonna go there i typed in c and it popped up chloroformmaking.com and i was like that's my place now spader they're gonna put all these idiots in jail obviously county jail awaiting trials um

spader his fellow inmates in the county jail tell all the cops i mean everybody in the jail goes to the cop saying that he never stops bragging about this fucking murder that he is that right He just talks about, well, now he's got to feel like a big man because he's in jail.

Well, he better say it in jail because those guys are going to want to fucking do exactly that to you.

If you tell your friends you killed 28 people, yeah, because you want them to think you're tough, what do you tell the guys in jail? Right.

So, yeah, they said they all said whether anybody wants to hear it or not, he won't stop talking about it. Even if they say stop talking about it, he won't stop talking about it.

Making sure to emphasize the number of blows he administered with the machete.

Good lord. Along with what the agonized responses of the victims were.
Fuck. Gross.

He penned an open letter labeling the citizens of New Hampshire uninformed idiots

and taking David Cates, this poor fucking man who's trying to help his daughter recover while mourning his wife.

Wow. Took him to task for openly opposing the inclusion of William Marks and Quinn Glover in their high school yearbook.
Because he said, oh, they should be in the wheel.

They end up getting like a whole page in the yearbook, these two, somehow.

Really? I don't understand how that works.

According to Spader's handwritten letter, he said, it is not Billy and Quinn's fault that they were arrested and charged with what they were charged with.

And yet, through all the struggle, they are both still trying to get an education.

So?

So what?

Ridiculous.

If someone says, we're going to this house to kill people, I go, well, I'm not going. Yeah.

I'm not coming. I'll tell you that much.

I'm I'm about to tell the cops.

Certainly, I'm not going to be in that fucking car. I'll tell you that much.
So I might think they were full of shit. And then later on, I'd be like, oh, shit, they did that.
Then you call the cops.

That's crazy. So he also wrote to a fellow inmate regarding the,

quote, brotherhood. He's trying to spread the gang to prison.
Wow. Near break that he tried to form and his relationship and its relationship to the charged crimes.

He said, quote, so Billy, Chris, and Quinn

knew that I've been about bodies.

About bodies.

And

idiot. And all three wanted to kill someone.
Personally, I was considering starting a crew, not a gang, but a group of like-minded individuals with the balls to do crazy shit. You know, a gang.

You know, a gang. If not a gang, you know what else that's called? An army.
You should join it. We have open slots in all of our fucking.
Yeah.

You don't go to try and join and they go all full. They'll take you, they'll take anybody, yeah, they'll take anybody, and they'll congratulate you when you kill somebody.

Absolutely, great job, soldier.

Yeah, you get awards and shit for that. He said, I didn't want pussies or people with just the talk, dig

dig, dig, yeah, dig.

So I set this up to see if my homies could be about it. I guess I thought wrong.
I guess so. Guess so.

Wow.

Yeah, that was to Chad Landry. He also wrote another letter here.
And the letters, wow, describe the preparation, attack, and hours and days following the murder in excruciating detail.

A handwriting expert will also verify that Spader did indeed write these letters.

He's described during this jail time by a psychiatrist as being obsessed with his own infamy.

That's what he's upset. Now that he's in there, now he wants to be

a big deal. Yeah.

Let everyone know who I am. It's been 15 years I just heard of you.

It's exactly right. You're a douchebag.

A former friend of Spader said, I always thought he would have killed himself before he killed someone else. No.
That was their thought on it.

Now, Spader's grandma, Mary Ann Spader, who's his step-grandmother, said his parents doted on them.

They said they did everything for him, gave him everything. They were so devoted to this kid.
His parents are the nicest people. I don't know how something like this could happen.

Yeah.

Now, Billy Marks' dad said, I'm very worried about him. I haven't seen him since he's been in jail because they keep telling me he's been being evaluated.
Oh. So he said, I haven't been able to.

Yeah.

By the way, while he's in jail, when he finally does get to talk to his son, they're found discussing selling his story to national media outlets to try to make money. What the fuck, you guys?

That's what Billy Marks wants to do. So, the charges here.

Gribble and Spader plead not guilty to first-degree murder and other charges.

Gribble's attorneys say they may go for the insanity defense with this idiot. Really?

Autumn Savoy and Quinn Glover are going to plead guilty to lesser charges and agree to testify against Spader and Gribble. And Marks will be in that too.

So, this is Quinn Glover's court here.

Quinn Glover here,

during court, he's going to testify. This is just for the sentencing and all that.
He pleads guilty.

He said that he recoiled in horror and covered his ears with his hands, but could still hear screams as

Kimberly and Jamie were attacked with the machete and the knife.

As he tried to say, I wanted nothing to do with it. I was horrified, blah, blah, blah.
He pleads guilty to burglary, robbery, and conspiracy to commit burglary. No.
No murder.

No murder in there at all. Nothing.
Not even an accomplice, accessory after the fact, nothing. He said, every moment that I closed my eyes,

I could see

what I have done and how I could have prevented this horror that I helped set in motion. There is nothing I can ever do that can make up for my despicable actions for the cowardice that I showed.
Wow.

Which is what you're supposed to exactly say in that situation.

Yeah. Exactly.
That's how you get charged with not murder.

Not murder, exactly. And I think he's got like religious guilt, too.
I think he's got that going on. I think he's got a lot of guilt feelings.

The judge says, that's very nice of you to do that, but you, sir, may fuck off 20 to 40 years on charges of burglary, robbery, and conspiracy. His earliest possible release date would be 2029.

Okay.

Now, there's consecutive sentences on this. So like he'll go for one, and if he gets paroled for one, then he has to start serving the other.
Yeah, got it.

But it's less time because now he's paroled on the one. So, then he, yeah, that's how that works.

And he'll testify against Spader and Gribble.

Now, William Marks was going to plead guilty to conspiracy to commit murder and other charges, but the state agreed to drop a first-degree murder charge in exchange for a sentence ranging from 60 to 30 years and Marks' agreement to testify.

Okay.

The judge asked prosecutors how they arrived at this deal.

And the prosecutor said, well, in the Dartmouth Professors case

there with Suzanne Zantap, who were stabbed in 2001,

one of the two teens charged in the case, because I think we did that case, James Parker, had pleaded guilty to being an accomplice in second-degree murder and was sentenced to 25 years to life.

So they thought that was about right for this one.

The other defendant, Robert Tulloch, we definitely did that one, I remember that name, eventually pleaded guilty to first-degree murder and was sentenced to a mandatory life sentence without parole.

They said, in some ways, the prosecutor said, in some ways, this case is more harsh. A little girl was injured and this case was even more brutal.

And they also said that his lawyer then said, Marx is very sorry for his role. He has nightmares.

Jim Marks, Marx's father, said that his his son tried everything to get out of it and he just couldn't. They said, well, why couldn't he? And he said, I just think he didn't know how.

So he's all set to plead guilty to conspiracy to commit murder and other charges. The judge hears all this and says, not allowing it to happen.
I don't want it.

Rejected. Yeah.
Rejected. Fuck you.
All right. Rejected the plea.
And he would have got a potential

30 to 60 out of that. So,

yeah, the judge, Jillian Abramson, said she wouldn't accept the deal because a sentence should be about punishment, rehabilitation, deterrence, and segregating a community, a criminal from the community.

And she said the proposed sentence does not satisfy any of these goals. No, it's a reward.
It's, I guess, I mean, 30 to 60 is still pretty hard.

I get what they're going with. I get what they're going for.
Spader's trial comes up now. Okay.

In the openings here, the prosecutor...

Holds up a long machete, the murder weapon, and describes how the attacks were committed with this machete.

He said they hacked them, they stabbed them, they cut them apart. And this is what this defendant used to hack that mother and daughter in their own bed.

He brought this weapon down on them again and again, then said he and Gribble laughed and boasted about what they had done.

Fucking he, then the defense came in and said, anyone who knows Steven Spader said he consistently bragged and exaggerated or said things that were doubtful or were not true.

Was he a member of the Crips that killed 28 people? No. So why is this true then? So the prosecutors play for the jurors the 911 call that Jamie Cates made.

This poor kid, man, oh my God, fucking whimpering, filling the courtroom. The words are hard to hear, and you hear the phone crash and all that.
Wow.

So the defense opening here, they say the state has no forensic evidence

linking Spader to these crimes. And the witnesses against him, co-defendants, all cut deals to lessen their prison sentences.
How could any of this be trusted? That's a good point.

It's a good point, except that he admitted to all of it

in his interrogation. Yeah.

He said, but that's just, he's lying to be a big shot. Right.
His lawyers said each has told multiple contradictory stories about what happened that night. Prosecutors say that.

Marks and Glover witnessed the attacks, but didn't take part. By the way, Autumn Savoy pleads guilty to hiding evidence and concocting the false alibi as well.

He's going to get charged for that as well.

Gribble's going to be tried separately. Now, in this court document, this is my favorite thing in the world.

I love how they think of themselves as like big shots, but in court stuff, they really break it down to what it is.

Like they talk about the disciples of destruction, and they put in the document here, although nominally a quote, gang, the disciples of construction had none of the notoriety, structure, reach, extensive criminality, following, or even recognition of what are commonly considered to be quote gangs.

In other words, poser is what they said. Yeah.
They're dorks.

Fucking poser.

Yeah.

Next,

they didn't want the chloroform. evidence to come in.
They tried to make chloroform. No, because all that says is you wanted to make it even worse than it was.

Yeah, you wanted to make it even easier for you to not do a good job. Oh, man.
So he complains, the defense complains, that the evidence regarding

chloroform lacks relevance because there's no evidence that he intended to use it during this burglary. And none was used, right?

Other than the fact that he said it 30 times and kept looking it up on the internet. Other than that.
And then didn't do it. Yes.
Because he was lazy.

It's ridiculous.

And he was unsuccessful in making the chemical.

The court says the former assertion is flatly belied by the facts.

The latter assertion is simply irrelevant, that the defendant failed in his attempts, maybe a defense if he was charged with criminal manufacture of chloroform, but does not detract from the relevance of those efforts, however unsuccessful, to the charged conspiracies.

Yeah, they say in any event, the defendant's complaints go to the weight that jurors may give the challenged evidence, not the evidence admissibility, which is a different thing.

We're not going to throw it out. It's admissible.
You guys have to parse out how much weight they're going to put on it. That's up to the lawyers.

The defendant's attempt to shift the burden of proof on the state by suggesting that the state has to prove an intent to use chloroform and an agreement to use chloroform simply turns a blind eye to the actual crimes with which he's been charged.

Similarly, the attack on the relevancy of evidence regarding the disciples of destruction, because he didn't want any of that in either, but they had a logo and all that shit.

amounts to no more than a challenge to the reliability and the weight of that evidence that is best left for the jurors to resolve.

So, the defendant's assertion was that there's no proof that DOD even existed or was in any way related to this matter.

Even though they have a logo, they talk about it all the time. He has bylaws on his computer officers, and literally every person in the gang is at the house.
Yeah.

I don't know. And nobody else.
Doesn't exist.

So the gang is going to testify against him. Marks, Glover, and Autumn Savoy all testify against him in exchange for lighter sentences.
Gribble, no, because

he's going to trial. Even though he, in detail,

excruciatingly told them everything he did, he's still going to give it a shot at trial because he's going to say he's crazy.

So Glover tells the jury that Spader would often share his fantasies about breaking into a home and slaughtering the occupants.

Not only had he wanted to kill them in the most gruesome fashions, but wanted to cook them, feast upon the remains, you know, if time allows.

Yeah, I don't know. You never know.
I got a lot to do today.

Yeah, you know, they might have plans. I have plans.

So he said that Spader wanted to break into homes, stay overnight, roast and eat the victims, stage their bodies for the media, what we talked about before.

He talked at one point about putting the heads of the victims on stakes for the media to find. Oh, yep.
Fucking Lord of the Flies shit happening.

Yep, absolutely some fucking Vlad the Impaler shit happening. Look at what we did.
Immediately after the attacks, he said Spader was euphoric and excited.

He said, quote, he seemed like he had just gotten off a roller coaster. He came out with the machete covered in blood and hair.
Ugh.

He then said Spader stared at him with his fingers pressed in front of him, his standard pose.

This is while he's testifying. He's sitting there, his fingers pressed in front of him, staring at him.

As the lawyers did a sidebar, talked to the judge, Spader loudly cracked his knuckles while staring at Glover,

trying to threaten him.

Only one difference here. You're You're going to get taken somewhere else in cuffs, and I'm fuck you.
I'm never going to see you again. Nope.

So, Glover said that Spader and his co-defendants there originally targeted the house next door to the Kate's home, but ruled it out as

just as too big

minutes before the home invasion. They decided to just pick the other house.
This might have been a completely different murder of a completely different person.

This might have been some

might have been some hillbilly with a shotgun that would have shot them all. Who the hell knows what would happen here, but not this.

So Glover said the four approached the closed bedroom door with their weapons out. He said Spader and Gribble were in the lead, the machete and the knife.

Glover said that when the screams started, he turned around and covered his ears. The prosecutor asked him why.

He said, I walked away because I wanted to walk away from the situation. I didn't take anything that was said prior seriously.
That was my mistake.

He said when the attack started, he said they were terrified, meaning the women, the women women and the girl. I heard cries for help, begging no, no.
I heard screams and cries. I heard Jamie run.

Please don't do it. Things like that.

That's fucking, gives me goosebumps. It's horrifying.
He said he didn't see the attack, but he entered the room afterward.

He saw Jamie crumpled on the floor, tangled in the curtains covering a sliding glass door.

He said, I thought for sure she was dead. On the bed, there was a woman covered in blood.
She was moving and somewhat moaning. That's when he saw Gribble put the knife to the right side of her throat.

He said he turned to Ray, and when he looked back, the knife was on the other side.

Defense attorneys asked questions of other witnesses about a samurai sword, and they asked him about it, because they keep bringing up this samurai sword through the trial.

Glover says, yes, I own a samurai sword, but it's under my mattress, and it was under my mattress during the time of the attacks. So it didn't go.

Yeah. He said he had an open knife with him at the house.

He said the knife at home, he would hide it. He would, quote, tuck it up inside the ripped back of my teddy bear.
Oh.

Okay, if you have a teddy bear that you hide your murder weapons in,

you're too immature to murder at that point.

Glover said he fled to the living room, covered his ears.

He said he's a fan of horror movies and had an interest in serial killers, but the reality was not what he was interested in at all. And it was far worse than he would have.

Yeah, it's fake when it's happening there, or it already happened and it's somewhere else and it's interesting.

But with that said, he said he had gone along even after Spader informed everybody on the way that they were about to see the evilest thing the town has ever seen.

So Spader is found guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. Lots of guilty here.
Guilty of everything. During sentencing, the prosecutor said, quote, he's a psychopath.

He said he has no regard for anybody else's life or well-being. The only person he truly cares about is himself.

He said that's why they were able to do this and show no remorse except for the fact that they were caught.

Now, Spader, who had bragged about everything and all these letters and everything else, apologized to the Cates family through his lawyer. Really?

But that in itself, David Cates found that insulting, he said. Have your lawyer say it? Fuck you.

Yeah. He said, this is what he said, through my impulsive actions, I have torn apart families and ruined lives.
That's the statement that Spader put out. I'm truly sorry for the pain I've caused you.

I do not expect forgiveness, nor do I deserve any. He couldn't even say that himself.
Yeah, he needed, somebody, he paid somebody to say that. Yeah, say it your fucking self.

The judge gets to say some shit to him, though. Here we go.
The judge said he belonged in a cage

and hands down the maximum sentence. She also said she could go on for days about the depths of his depravity.

She said, though, this sentence ensures, quote, you will stay in that cage for the rest of your pointless life. Pointless.

Pointless life.

You, sir, may fuck off multiple life sentences without the possibility of parole. Damn.
Eat dicks and keep eating them forever, you little asshole. Fuck this kid.
I don't know.

Your pointless little life.

Your pointless fucking life.

Eat dicks.

So the prosecutor reaction here afterwards, they asked whether the system failed the Spader family. The Spader family? How the fuck would it fail them? They got a jerk off kid.

He said no, because this is a case of someone who made a conscious decision to go out and randomly attack and kill innocent people. He was not unintelligent.
He was not abused.

He had many opportunities and many of the luxuries of life that other people don't have. So he was well equipped.
Yeah. No, go ahead.
Go ahead.

Gifted.

Pre-explained an even better opportunity by being adopted. He had the opportunity

to not be this.

His parents mortgaged their house to put him in schools and HELOCs. They probably, this was in 2008.
They probably lost their fucking house about it. Oh, all right.

It was probably worth nothing at that point anyway. Right.
All right.

I can't believe they gave him a HELOC.

No, yeah. It must have have been paid off or something.
So they said that, yeah,

he was well equipped to make rational and certainly logical and legal decisions, and he chose not to. He said he doesn't blame Spader's parents either.

He said they did the best they could possibly do.

He understood. Yep.
He said he understands the public's need to give order to disorder, but he said nobody wants to accept that often the simple answer is that somebody chose to do a terrible thing.

They came from a good family. Nobody saw it coming because that thought thought is very uncomfortable.

And that's, yeah, people, they need the puzzle to fit.

They need it to fit. So when you say this kid came up, had a nice family, they did everything for him, you go, no, no, no, no, that can't be.

It can't be. It must be this.
He must have had some horrible abuse or something that would

change this.

Sometimes people are just assholes. You know what I mean?

He said, in the end, people have free will and people can choose to go off the rails. They can choose to commit horrible crimes.

And even though you treat them very well and you equip them with what you hope are the right skills they need to make the right decisions, they still cannot choose to.

He described it as a terrible synergy between Spader and Gribble here. He said, they don't care about other people.

And unfortunately, they took great satisfaction in inflicting pain and mayhem on innocent people. It gave them a sense of power and pleasure.
That's who they are. Yeah, afraid so.
Yeah.

They said, you know, had Spader and Gribble not bragged to friends about what they'd done, is it possible they would have gotten away with it and killed again? Possible, yeah.

And the prosecutor said, yes.

He said, it's why the killers chose their victims at random, making it less likely that they'd be caught.

He said, and it's why while disposing of their bloody clothing in a river, they buried their weapons so they could use them again. Right.
Didn't want to throw those out.

He said they absolutely wanted to do this again. It was part of the plan.
Gross.

Now it's Gribble's trial.

Totally different deal because he's admitting everything that he did, just saying it's because he's insane. It's guilty by reason of insanity, not guilty by reason of insanity.

Wow.

Apparently, if the judge ruled that he was a danger to society, Gribble would be sentenced to a secure psychiatric ward of the New Hampshire State Prison.

He would then be entitled to have a review of his threat to society every five years. Oh,

which is very soon. That's way too frequent.
Yeah. Now, a forensic psychiatrist here says that the man, this guy here, did it as a thrill kill.
That was it.

He said that he's got no

mental illness, no psychological problems. His only problem is he's an asshole who likes to kill people.

Essentially, that's it. There's nothing in his brain

that would have kept him from stopping doing this. He's just a dude.
Nothing. He's just a fucking asshole.
Yep, that's it.

His mom testifies.

She testifies, because they're talking about abuse and saying he was abused so bad. His mom testified that she once spanked him hard enough to break the wooden spoon she was using.

I have like eight wooden spoons in my fucking wake.

You know how people put like notches on like a

a gun fucking handle old in the old west or on their bed post? I have a wooden spoon notcher. Yeah, I have a wooden spoon notcher.
I break a good eight of them.

And grandma, my grandmother would get mad at me because it broke and then hit me harder. What's that? With the broken piece.
With the broken piece.

Well, you son of a bitch, you broke my spoon, and she'd hit me more. You know,

I've yet to kill more than one person. You know, no, you have to kill anybody, obviously.

So

she said she denied other things he told to mental health counselors about past abuse, though. She was willing to go far enough to there, but not

any farther. Spader's girlfriend also testifies.
Jillian

Baptist. Jill.

Jill Baptist. Jill the Baptist.
He's John's girlfriend. John's sister.
Jill.

Yeah.

She is Spader's former girlfriend.

She said that she used to call Christopher Gribble, quote, creepy Chris. That was his nickname.
Creepy Chris. Nice.

She said that Gribble had flirted with her, but she'd spurned his advances when they said, can Gribble control himself?

He flirted with you. You said no.
Did he then grab you and rape you? Did he knock you out? And she said, nope, he could control himself just fine. Walked away.
Everything was fine.

So that's to show he's not a drooling, crazy monster.

Then this idiot testifies. Here we go.
He's got it because he's got it. It's showtime.
You got to get up there and be crazy. And that's what he's going to do.

He said he often thought about taking his mother to the woods and cutting little pieces off of her to hear her scream.

He said that he wanted to shoot people to death and that it is possible that I will kill again. He tells them as well.
Wow.

If you're trying to get off, even if you're saying you're crazy, you're just making people never want to let you out of wherever they put you.

Wow. He recounted on the stand how he told police that he wanted to use different weapons in future crimes.

He said he didn't use a gun because he had no money. He told jurors that he told police he would cleverly disguise guns if he used them.
He said, I had a plan for how I was going to be killing people.

He said, so they can't be traced to the killings or the attacks.

He said, you could switch barrels in a pistol. Yeah.

And that will make the rifling different and the ballistic different. That's two different guns, yeah.
Exactly. He said, so if you do a rifling test, it wouldn't show.
I think I learned that on CSI.

I think I did. Wow, this CSI is not good for this kid to watch.
No, it's not good for this country. Yeah, apparently it's bad as we do this, which is worse, probably.

Cross-examination, prosecutors cross-examine him here, trying to disprove his insanity claims, highlighting his conscious thoughts on the night of the murder and his sense of right and wrong.

You know what the fuck you're talking about.

He said that some things are common sense, is what Gribble said.

For example, he said certain things can remove blood from clothing, and the secrets are difficult to maintain if too many people know about them. He said,

that's the common sense that you talked about earlier, the prosecutor said. You didn't need CSI to tell you that, right? And Gribble said, no, laughing.

Like, caught caught me, basically.

Speaking of his future time in prison, if he ends up there, he implied that

basically he's going to be a danger to everybody. Oh.

He said, quote, I could be considered dangerous.

And the prosecutor said, people in jail don't know how dangerous you are. And he said, no, they don't.
And they said, explain why that thought made you smile, because he smiled while he said it.

And he said, I smile because it's funny. All these people in there have no idea who they're messing with.
Oh, okay. Oh, you're in jail, though, bud.
Wait till you go to prison. Prison.
Yeah. Yeah.

That's going to be a way different thing, man. Full-grown adults that have been there a long time.

Way more than just you.

Yep. Closing arguments.

The attorney general emphasized that he's sane because he plotted, chose the weapons, knew to hide them, lied about his involvement, all the things that an insane person wouldn't.

Yeah, an insane person, David Cates, would have come home on like Tuesday, and they'd have been running around the fucking kitchen

holding machete above their head, wearing one of Kimberly's house coats. That's a crazy person.

This is not crazy. The defense attorney reminded the jury that even depression is grounds to find him legally insane.
Oh, is it? No, it's not. Is it? I mean, technically it is.

It's a mental illness where the jury can technically, if they're have their heads so far up their asses that they can smell the gum they're chewing, then maybe, but otherwise, no.

The verdict comes in, not crazy, but guilty of every fucking thing that they accuse him of. Certainly not crazy, though.
Go show all those prisoners how crazy you are. Go show them.

Go show them what they're in for.

There's an update on that later, which is fun, too. Now, David Cates, this poor fucking man, the husband and father, read his victim impact statement here.

He said, This verdict is not justice, but I can only hope that justice will find you very soon.

In other words, I hope somebody kills you, you fucking asshole. He then called Gribble a worthless coward

and a pointless life on the other guy, and he's a worthless coward. I like it.
And blasted him for all the pain he's caused his daughter. It was all about his daughter.

He says that his daughter will ache for the rest of her life because of what happened to her and her mother.

Gribble stated that he should, should he ever be released, this is after he had said, I can't guarantee I won't kill again and all that.

The judge informs him that if it had been within her power, she would sentence him, quote, to infinity.

Have you heard of infinity? Have you heard of it? Just, we'll all be gone and you'll still be in that cell.

Society will be ended. You, sir,

may fuck off multiple life sentences, zero possibility of parole. Wow.
Go fuck yourself.

After the sentencing, the judge told Jamie Cates, who was in the courtroom for the first time for this, said, this man and the other men involved in this terrible crime can never hurt you again.

Never get you again. Nope.
Now, Marks is going to receive 30 to 60 years for a conspiracy to commit murder,

burglary, and first-degree assault. So that's what he ends up getting first.

That's what he ended up getting.

Autumn Savoy pleads guilty to conspiracy and hindering apprehension and was sentenced to, you, sir, may fuck off, five to 12 years in prison. That's pretty good.
That's about right for him.

Yeah, he's a dip shit, but he didn't, I honestly think he didn't think they were actually going to do anything. Yeah.

Yeah, they had him draw a logo. Dude, yeah.
That's so jerky.

I have known jerk-offs who brag and say they're doing things. If they said they're going out to do something, you roll your eyes.

They never did anything before, and they're not going to fucking do anything now. These guys are, and you'd think, Spader, he's a fucking poser.
These guys are posers.

The way they talk, I never would have believed anything they fucking said either. I did know a kid that was just like that little black kid in the wire that would always steal the cars.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I knew a kid exactly like him, but he was just, he was just a dipshit.

He showed up at the pizza joint with an expedition, bragging to all of us that he stole it and showed us the broken fucking handle. And I'm like,

get out of here. Go away.
I have drugs. And then again, yeah, he'd come back.
He'd come back three weeks later with another car that he stole. That's amazing.

So, yeah, you can only say, I have drugs, go away. And it helped.
I have drugs. Get out of here.
Get out of here. You're going to fuck my life up, man.

My father was trying to say what a good kid I was and how my brother was a, my little brother is a real nice, upstanding guy. How

he was such a menace when he was a teenager and he got pulled over for racing and he's doing all this crazy shit. My father was at the end of his wits.

He goes, he never even got a ticket about me. And I said, I had drugs on me all the time.
I was 10 and 2 speed limit. That's why.
So I was much worse than him.

He could race because he was confident not having drugs in the car. Why don't you be embarrassed that your criminal kids are fucking dip shit and gets caught?

I think that's what it was. Yeah, but you didn't get caught for it.
It's like, yeah, you're right. You're right.

So David and Jamie Cates, this is incredible. They stayed in the home.
Stop it. They lived there.
Now?

No, they lived there. They stayed in the home.
Wow. Lived till I think Jamie moved out of the house to go to college.
Holy shit. They lived there.

They purchased a guard dog and got an even crazier alarm system, though, which is good for them. That's the other thing.
If there's a big dog in the house, this ain't happening. Yeah, it's nothing.

They're not doing it. Yeah.
They're not doing it. Or maybe they would have.
Maybe they would have tried to kill the dog, too. Who knows?

But they would have probably not gotten out of it unscathed at that point.

So they said their lives were shattered, but they persevered, they said, and they made it through.

In hopes of ensuring that Kimberly's, you know, just her spirit lived on in the community, an annual golf tournament was established in her name. That's nice.

The proceeds of the event, which takes place every year on the anniversary of her murder. God, Jesus.
Oh, that's some morbid shit. It's fall, man.
It's grim. It's fucking fall.
That's why. I guess so.

That's fucking grim. That's grim, mate.
The weather is very nice right now.

Fuck. Wow.
Go towards scholarship funds set up for local students for college. So it's a scholarship type thing.

2013, following changes in the law, Spader was a month shy of his 18th birthday when he did this.

Okay, Stephen Spader.

This law.

Well, no, he was still tried as an adult.

In New Hampshire, if you're 17 and you commit a violent crime, you're automatically tried as an adult.

His life sentence without parole is negated for anyone who was a minor when they committed their offenses. So Spader became eligible for a reduced sentence.

When they brought it up to him, his lawyers, he said, I don't give a fuck. He said, I'm happy here.
Don't bother. Oh, wow.
Don't want it. Yeah.
He refused to cooperate with the appeal process.

Oh, shit. The lawyers said they...

They had to go through with the appeals process because it was just the correct,

what's it called? Of your,

what's it called when you

fucking take something and keep it and make it nice?

Collection?

No, god damn it. You

oh, this is gonna drive me crazy. Nah, never mind.

Store.

They said they had to do the appeals process anyway, just to keep in with this.

So he told his attorneys that he's, quote, the most sick and twisted person you'll ever meet, and I want nothing to do with this shit. I'm too sick and twisted.

You killed one person and you barely did it, you fucking piece of shit. Yep.
So the legal team moved ahead without him. In the end, he received a sentence of life plus 76 years consecutive.

So it's the same thing. It doesn't matter.
It's just not life without parole now, but it's still life.

In 2013, he ordered his attorneys to drop all appeals and leave it alone. I'm done.
I'm fine here. Fine.
Fuck off.

Gribble appealed his conviction, claiming that he didn't understand he had the right to remain silent.

He doesn't understand that. Nope.
Even though he'd been read his rights more than once, had verbally acknowledged he understood their meaning, initialed the sheet, did all that shit. But I didn't.

He's just painted himself as a poor soul who'd been manipulated by overzealous cops. That's what he said.
Yep.

He said that he, at this point, he's just basically in these appeal proceedings, he acts like he doesn't know what's going on and like he's stupid. Yeah.
Not even crazy. Now he acts like he's stupid.

Oh.

Yeah, beyond crazy. Now he's like a 46 IQ now.

And he doesn't know the inner workings of the legal system, even though he watched CSI every fucking week, according to him.

Even though he had been the one to call them back into the room to initiate the confession here, he said it was coerced. Okay.

Now, they have tons of proof that it's not coerced, including his own voice saying that he is confessing of his own free will more than once.

He contends that he made earlier attempts to discontinue questioning, but that the troopers nonetheless continued to question him before the interview ended. Now, meanwhile, that's all on tape.

And the tape is him saying, I don't know if I want to do this, and them going, you want to end the conversation? No, thank you. They don't have to say shit till you say, I want a lawyer.

Lawyer is the magic word.

Not, I don't want to talk. That's not the magic word.

They can keep bothering you till you say lawyer.

So, until you even insist, lawyer here, want it now.

He maintains that his perceptions of the trooper's willingness to continue questioning him in the face of equivocal attempts to discontinue the questioning are relevant to how he would perceive the later interaction with the trooper.

Now, the court says we agree that in determining whether Trooper and Carnacio conducted the functional equivalent of interrogation, we focus primarily on the defendant's perceptions.

Here, however, although the troopers continue to question the defendant despite of his equivocal efforts to

discontinue questioning, once the defendant unequivocally asserted his right to remain silent, the troopers immediately ended the interview and left him alone in the room.

After the defendant was left alone, there's no evidence that he had any other conversations with the trooper until he later initiated contact with trooper Encarnacio.

In light of these facts, we fail to see how the defendant would perceive that trooper and his later responses to his questions as the functional equivalent of interrogation.

They said, meanwhile, moreover, there's no reason for the trooper to believe that the defendant would suddenly decide to admit his involvement in the crime.

They said, as Trooper and Carnacio could have reasonably concluded that the defendant would continue to profess his innocence.

This is evidenced by his testimony that he was surprised by his willingness to tell him everything

because he thought the interview was fucking over. Sure.

He said, they said, although the trooper's intent is not conclusive, it's relevant to determining whether his response constituted the functional equivalent of interrogation. Appeal denied.

Fuck off, asshole. Now, in prison, Gribble, described as weak-willed and emotionally fragile,

you know, they don't know what they're in for with me coming in there,

became a target of other inmates who beat the shit out of him constantly.

Constantly. Yeah.

For his own protection, he was placed in the shoe there, the special housing unit, where he would spend several years before integrating back into Genpop.

Once there, he was horribly beaten up by another inmate, forcing the officials to send him back to the shoe where he remains isolated. That's fantastic.

He's just a little shaky bitch sitting in the corner getting his ass listened all the time. With ICP lyrics going on in his head.
Fuck off.

2014, Spader moved, he didn't move. He was moved to a prison in New Jersey.

And they confirmed, the Department of Corrections confirmed that he was moved to the New Jersey State Prison and said it's not uncommon for the states to exchange inmates. They said that, very common.

They said New Hampshire has more than 100 inmates serving sentences in other states.

It's just what happens. It's just how it goes.

2015, Austin Savoy, or I'm sorry, Autumn Savoy, I did it again, gets a parole hearing. Oh.
Remember, he got five to 12.

Now, Sharon Souci, who was acting as the Cates family spokesman since shortly after the murder,

she began to read a brief statement she said it's been just over five years that family and friends who loved Kim so much each year or each new year brings about more and more events that Kim's not able to be here for she said Kim wasn't there to help her daughter pick out her prom dress she wasn't there to do her hair for there are countless other times Kim could have been there

now

They also brought in

his parents there. Autumn's parents are there too, and his sisters are also there.

They told the board that he's been incarcerated for five and a half years, or quote, incarcerated five and a half years ago, I destroyed evidence and gave false alibis, is what he says, trying to help four friends elude police, blah, blah, blah.

The board here,

the one member, orders him, they're going to give his parole. They're going to give it to him.
He was denied parole last year.

This year, they're going to give autumn parole here, which I think is probably fine.

They ordered him to complete his post-incarceration plan, which includes where he intends to live, his current and future employment plans, and how he will address issues such as health insurance, transportation, and getting set up with

parole officer meetings. He said he's been working on the plan since he was denied parole last year, and while his plan isn't fully formulated yet, it's well underway and he'll finish it soon.

The lack of a plan contributed to the board's September decision to deny him parole last time.

They said his proposal to move into into a Nashua rooming house where convicted felons were known to reside. Oh, shit.
Wasn't great. He said he now intends to live at his mother's house,

which is where he was arrested.

He told the board, because I think he's on work release at this point.

He told the board that he is currently working 60 to 70 hours a week at two restaurants at the Mall of New Hampshire and Manchester and said he wants to go to school to be a machinist. Jesus.

So they ordered him to clear up restitution from an unrelated case, submit his evaluation, and do all this type of shit. He also said that

he'll have no contact with members of the Cates family and notify his parole officer when he purchase a vehicle that he says he intends to buy.

Also asked by the parole member how he intends to handle your fame, he said, keep it to myself. I understand that due to circumstances, I will be in the spotlight.

So they said, you're going to be under intense scrutiny. You'll need to toe the line as you said you would.
Yeah. Everyone's going to be looking at you.
Jail fucker. Yeah.
Approved.

Now, friends of the Kates family about this

said that they don't hold any grudge against the parole board for letting this guy out. And they're not surprised they let him out.

They said they actually hope that he uses the opportunity to make something of himself.

He wasn't even at the house.

No, he just fucking helped them a little bit. That's terrible, but you can't look at him and go, you looked into my fucking, you know, you can't say that.
So

they said that Cates,

Jamie, and David are done with Savoy and prefer focusing on moving forward with their lives. They asked them, they said, we don't care what they do with that guy.
It doesn't matter to us.

We're concentrating on their shit. The ones that actually got it, yeah.

David and Jamie Cates will be handing out $25,000 scholarships to deserving students at Sohegan High School, also,

referring to the Kimberly Cates Memorial Scholarship Fund.

They will be giving it to high school seniors pursuing careers in the medical and healthcare. Nice.

That's cool. They'll be presented

at the scholarship awards.

One friend said, there's no closure. It becomes part of your life.
You embrace what you have.

She said, it's been nice to watch Jamie grow up and flourish and said, Kim is here, kind of, in Jamie.

October 1st, 2024, parole hearings for Glover and Marks. Oh.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Glover said, well, he didn't play a direct role.
He could have stopped it. He said, I stood there like a coward, and I regret every single moment of my life since then.

The parole board grants his parole, which means he can now begin serving his next sentence,

which will keep him in prison anyway. So he's paroled on one charge, but he's going on another.

They said that he had another parole member said to him that he has another five years to serve in prison before being eligible for parole back into the community, which is 2029 when we talked about that.

Marks, they deny parole for Marks. They asked him why he deserved parole.

Now, Glover had it right. I'm terrible.
I suck, and you should do whatever you want. This guy said, I mean, I don't really have a good answer.
I mean, I've been working. I got my high school diploma.

I know that don't mean much. I've been working through college.
I know that don't sound like much.

They said, no, it doesn't. That don't impress me much, motherfucker.
They shania twained his ass right back to prison. Denied, dickhead.

So,

yeah, Spader's parents still visit him twice a month and send him weekly commissary money really

holy shit they said they were really

wanted a kid they really wanted one they would love for him to have parole someday no

wow um that is crazy by the way since his incarceration he is described as a model inmate polite and subdued i don't care that's that's weird that he just changed like that

um Jamie is now in her 20s, graduated from college, and is pursuing a career in the healthcare field. We won't say exactly what,

everybody leave her the fuck alone, please. She's considered a happy young woman, and she says she's moved past the events of that night.
So anybody who's upset, this happened to me when I was a kid,

were you hacked up and left for dead in the same room as your mother? No? Well, then you probably can get over it because she got over it. She's doing pretty great.
She's a fucking hero.

She is like that guy who had

the snowmobile through the snow in Utah. That's what she reminds me of.
By the way, the house they lived in, 4 Trow Road, that was house number three. It's for sale right fucking now.

It's a beautiful house. Four bedroom, three bath, 4,159 square feet, 5.69 acres of land built in 1972, and a horrible murder took place there.
And it's for sale. For real.
And it's for sale.

Well, it's expensive, but there you go. So there you go, everybody.
That is Mont Vernon, New Hampshire. Very quickly, we'll get through this.

If you like this show, get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars, please.
It helps a ton. As well as follow us on social media.
On Instagram, we're at Small Town Murder.

On Facebook, we're at Small Town Pod. Definitely get

follow us. Go to shutupandGivemeurder.com.
Do that. Get your tickets for live shows.
October 18th, Seattle. We're live.

Thursday, right before Halloween, virtual live show. Get your tickets right now.
That show will be available for two weeks.

During that time, you can watch it as many times as you want, just like a regular live show, except except we look like even bigger idiots because we have costumes on. Yes.

So do that. Get in there, patreon.com slash crimeinsports.
Get all of your bonus material, anybody $5 a month or above.

You get tons, hundreds of back episodes upon subscription, new ones every other week. One Crime and Sports, one Small Town Murder.

This week, Crime and Sports, rock and jock specials for MTV in the 90s, 2000s. Small town murder, internet salad.
Let's take it down a notch.

We're going to bitch about the Saudi Comedy Festival and shit, too. So do that stuff.
Keep following us, hanging out with us. Oh, and you you get everything ad-free on Patreon.
All the shows ad-free.

And you get a shout-out at the end of the show, which is right now, Jimmy, with the names of the most wonderful people in the fucking world who would never hack our daughter to pieces.

This week's executive producers are Gary Howard, Maria Wiedaker. Good to see you, Gary.
Wiederker. Wiederker.
I think it's Wiederker. I don't know.
It's a lot of

ease. Thank you, Maria.
Gary Howard. And Gary, yeah, you're a good dude, Gary.
Good to see you. Thank you, man.
Take care of yourself. Stay out of trouble.
Buckle up. Watch out.
Terry DePue.

Carol Braun sticking around. Thank you, Carol.
You're the best. Thank you.

Amanda Parma also. I believe we've met her before.

Sounds familiar, right? I don't know. Other producers this week.
Elizabeth Vasquez,

Elizabeth Rockefeller, Peyton Meadows, Matthew Casey, Jeffrey Adamski, Adamski.

Hey, Swab, give me another Bruce ski. Remember that in Captain Ron?

Oh, yeah. Fuck you.
I love Captain Ron. It's the best movie.

It's not. Weirdest movie to have tits ever.

You You don't expect tits in that movie. There they are.
Yeah. It's great.
Bingo. There they are.

As a 12-year-old, I'm like, this has it all. Yeah.

Who else have we got? Ryan Bender. Happy Hour.
Checking in in West Memphis, Arkansas. Be careful.
Oh, watch out.

Sounds like a great neighborhood. Don't get held for multiple murders you didn't commit.
Janice Hill, Nathan Rose, Allison Trauma.

Did Owen? That's not it. I fucking, what the hell? Somebody named Owen.

Thank you, Owen. Mr.
Owen, Mrs. Owen, D-I-D-Owen.
That's not right.

I mistyped that. Adam Stockman, Jeremy Moosey, Dr.
Zizzle Fraxel,

Dons Gold, Michelle Cox, Travis James, Douglas Woodson, Jeremy Oches, Oaks, Ox,

Deanna Dina, Deanna Susie, Chris with no last name, Nama with no last name, Debbie Grimes, Amanda Jenkins, JBY Malang.

I don't know.

That's it. That's their name.
Kitty with no last name. Darcy Hobie.

Denine? Denane Milligan?

Yep. Carrie with no last name.
Dakai with no last name. Perhaps Daki.
Carla Gregory. Cthulhu.

Cathulu. Okay.
Diana Gruber. Rebecca Ravenwood Becky.

Jess Case, Matthew with no last name. Kaylee with no last name.
Esther Nascamento Batista. Myron Ire.
Ari.

Andy Boniface. Boniface

Boniface.

That's the one. Patricia Thomas.
Patricia. Not Patricia.
Who's Patricia ever? Thomas.

Sparchy Dogs.

Robin Middleton.

Gwendolyn Chambers. Red, White, and Brian.
Marnie Thorvardson. Thorvardson.

Tom.

Oh, Pam. Pam Safinski.
Steve would know last name. Gentry, Katie, and Jim Bob, the cat.
Good.

Kissy Mama.

Justine Field. Landon Shepard, P, the letter P, Deanna

Patsaurus,

Angel Shaddoff, Shadoff, Shaddaff, Ruby Ray, Savannah Bratcher, Ian Stevenson, Ron

DeKing. DeKang? Is that Ron DeKing? What am I trying to say? What do you need me to say there?

Is that a joke of some sort? What do you need me to say? What do you need me to do? What are you trying to get out of me here? What are you looking for? What's the trick you're trying to pull?

Michelle Maloney, Mike Silver, Anna Marie, Ethan with no last name sarah tomlinson crystal winters bj low also high uh then low then high

matthew williams

preston uh with no last name rochelle with no last name wanda tim k uh blake with no last name becky laGuardia uh we got that LaGuardia money uh Kimberly Akers

Fiorello's granddaughter is it probably Robin Smith Tammy with no last name Bodhi Marshall Amy Mobley Melanie Carter Alex McKinney, Melanie Olivera, Beverly Beaver, wow, Amy Van Vliet, Ashes with no last name, Sean Kelly, DJ Max,

the brother of TJ, Andrew Ox. I already said that.
Christy with no last name, Darcy Smith, Brandon Sandal, Megan

Daniel, Sonia Hardcastle, Elaine with no last name, Renee Carter, Steve Funks, Sky Alex Jackson, Kaylee with no last name, Brendan Kelly, Jaden Hitchcock, Jesse George, Anna Fidalgo, Dolores Belts, Jim Delaney, Heather B., Kathy with no last name, Vanessa Johnson, Laura Donna with no last name, Christina Anderson, Sarah Hardacre,

Andrew Petty,

Jennifer, Jennifer McKay, Jessica Towne, Stacey Roberts, Francesa, Francesca with no last name, Ernie Lozano, Shannon Brown, Tyler

Vanderin, Tomei Tammy, perhaps, Guevara, Corey Donaldson, Stacey Cole, Melissa with no last name, Kaylee Gill, Moose with no last name, Samantha B.

Bianca with no last name, Stephanie Candelas, Candelas, Michelle DeWeese, Caden Stubblefield, Lewis Smith, Randall Rolston, Colton Thompson, Tony L.

A. L.
Y, L. Conrad, We perhaps, Rainey Muchler, Robin, nope, that's Matthew, Falk, Falki, Anna Talent, Talent, perhaps, and all of our patrons.
You guys are the best. Thank you.

Thank you so much, everybody. You wonderful, fantastic sons of bitches.
We have just so much love for you. Thank you so much for all that you do for us.
Thanks for hanging out all the time.

Thanks for keep coming back. You want to follow us on social media? ShutupandGiveMeMurder.com has drop-down menus.
So have a good one and stay away from the insane clown posse.

We'll see you next week, everybody. Bye.

As a founder, you're moving fast toward product market fit, your next round, or your first big enterprise deal.

But with AI accelerating how quickly startups build and ship, security expectations are higher earlier than ever.

Getting security and compliance right can unlock growth or stall it if you wait too long.

With deep integrations and automated workflows built for fast-moving teams, Vanta gets you audit-ready fast and keeps you secure with continuous monitoring as your models, infra, and customers evolve.

Fast-growing startups like Langchain, Writer, and Cursor trusted Vanta to build a scalable foundation from the start.

Go to Vanta.com to save $1,000 today through the Vanta for Startups program and join over 10,000 ambitious companies already scaling with Vanta. That's vanta.com to save 1,000 for a limited time.

My phone just buzzed. Another data breach alert.
It was a reminder that VPNs and encrypted apps can't fix what's broken at the network level. That's where CAPE comes in.

CAPE is a secure mobile carrier built with privacy as its foundation. It doesn't collect names, addresses, or personal data, so it can't sell what it never stores.

Use the code CAPE33 to get the first month of premium nationwide service for just $30 a month and 33% off the first six months. Go to CAPE.co.
Privacy starts at the source.