Strange Affairs & Frozen Blood - Pottstown, Pennsylvania

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This week in Potts Town, Pennsylvania, a twisted tale emerges when a rich, brash local with a million enemies is found horribly murdered.

But detectives have a mess on their hands with many suspects, including nephews and wives, all telling different stories.

Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder.

Yay!

Oh, yay, indeed, Jimmy.

Yay, indeed.

My name is James Petrogallo.

I'm here with my co-host.

I'm Jimmy Wistman.

Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another absolutely insane edition of Small Town Murder.

It is a twisted mess.

We don't have to tell you that.

It's the same every week.

A crazy story, just way different all the time.

Do it one more again.

Oof, this is some wild stuff we have.

Before we get to that, though, you definitely want to head over to shutupandgivememurder.com.

That is where you find everything, all your merchandise, and especially tickets for live shows.

Still some tickets left for October the 18th in Seattle at the Moor.

Get in there.

Very few.

So, okay, they just put out a low ticket alert or whatever.

So get in there if you want to see us because that's pretty much all there is live for the rest of the year.

Everything else is pretty much sold out.

Might be a couple left in Philly.

I don't know.

Did they sell out?

It might be sold out.

I think it's done.

Yeah.

There's also another show, the virtual live show, Thursday, October 30th, right before Halloween.

Come hang out with us.

Oh boy.

We are very excited for this.

It's just like a regular live show.

You can watch it anywhere in the world.

All you need is to have internet and you can be at a live show.

We're going to have the pictures and all the story, everything that we normally have in a live show.

But of course, we'll wear costumes and look like idiots because

it's Halloween.

We can't wait to do that.

And it's available for two weeks after the show, too.

So you can get it and you can watch it a hundred times.

If you can't watch it the night it comes out, you can watch it the next day or whenever you feel like it.

Get in there and do that.

ShutupandGiveMemurder.com.

Also, listen to our other two shows.

Crime in Sports, which is really, really hilarious.

We're doing a long one on Billy Martin at this moment in time, a multi-parter.

And then check out your stupid opinions if you want to hear the funniest reviews on the internet and us make fun of them.

So that's a good time.

Check that out.

Then get yourself Patreon.

You need that.

Patreon.com/slash crime in sports.

That's where you get all of the bonus material.

Anybody, $5 a month or above, you're going to get so much.

You're going to get, first of all, hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard before.

Then that's immediately upon subscription.

Then you get new ones every other week.

One crime in sports, one small-town murder, and you get it all, everybody.

Yes, sir.

This week, what we're going to do here for crime and sports, we are going to talk about those old MTV rock and jock specials

where you get to see like a 5'3 RB singer line up against Shaq

down in the paint.

That's fun.

Yeah.

It's good.

Voiced men against the starting lineup of the Hornets.

That's good.

No, no, I like to see Gary Payton guarding the lead singer from Bel Biv DeVoe.

That's what we need to see out there.

So we'll talk about that.

Then for Small Town Murder, we are going to talk about Unknown Number, the documentary where the mother,

I can't even imagine why, does some crazy shit to her daughter.

We'll talk all about that.

I got theories.

Oh, we got a lot of theories.

We'll get all into that.

Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you're going to be able to do it.

Oh, wait, there's more.

There's more.

You also get every show we do, Crime and Sports, Your Stupid Opinions, and Small Town Murder, all ad-free with your Patreon subscription.

And you get a shout-out at the end of the show as well.

So it's all we can do.

We're leaving it all on the table for you.

You get a better deal elsewhere.

You can't.

You can't.

It's impossible.

That said, disclaimer time.

Here we go.

This is a comedy show.

We're comedians.

We're going to make jokes.

People are also going to die.

You go, how does that work?

Very easily.

We don't make fun of the victims.

Oh.

Or the victims' families.

Why, James?

Because we're assholes.

But we're not scumbags.

See how that works?

It's real simple.

There's plenty to make fun of.

We make fun of small towns because we're all from somewhere that can be made fun of.

Who cares?

That's easy.

We make fun of a bumbling police force lets a murderer go free and he kills five more people.

We'll make fun of them for that.

And we make fun of murderers because why not?

What else do we have to do?

You know,

we can't put them in jail or do anything.

All we can do is make fun of them.

We're comedians, so we'll do that.

Either way, that's how we do it.

And if that sounds good to you, you're going to hear a wild story if you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together.

We might not be for you, but we might be for you.

So give it a shot.

Either way, no complaining later.

I think it's time, everybody, to sit back, clear the lungs.

Here we go.

And let's all shout:

Shut up

and give me murder.

Let's do this.

Everybody, let's go on a trip, shall we?

We are going to Pennsylvania this week.

We're going.

Yeah,

I've heard of this.

You've heard of Pennsylvania.

Potts Town?

Yeah, I've heard of Pennsylvania.

Pray tell of Pennsylvania.

Pray tell, yeah.

Pottstown, Pennsylvania.

Yeah, it's been in little things here and there in pop culture.

It's got some mentions also.

Yeah.

Comes up now and then, mainly as like a

husk of an old steel town.

Okay.

Pottstown is like one of those places where they go, you know, you don't want to end up like Pottstown.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Was there a song about Pottstown?

Yes, we'll get into that.

It's in here.

Don't worry about it.

Absolutely.

We think we're going to miss songs.

Pottstown, Pennsylvania, is in eastern Pennsylvania.

It's west of Philadelphia, about an hour outside, and northwest of Philly.

It's about an hour and a half to Harrisburg, which is the other direction, the capital of Pennsylvania.

And then 55 minutes to Chester, Pennsylvania, our last episode there.

The angriest serial killer around.

That guy was wild.

Yeah.

This is in Montgomery County.

Area code 610 and 484.

Can't hold this town.

Can't hold it down with just

one area code.

Little bit of history here.

Iron and steel production that was happening attracted the Potts family, who were iron masters.

Oh.

Yes.

They established.

That's right.

They established a forge and built a big-ass house just west of the creek.

And John Potts, this is.

He founded the town in 1761 on part of the 995 acres that he owned.

That's a shitload of land.

Good for you.

Wow.

It is home of the nation's oldest mill, the Pottstown Roller Mill.

Yeah.

Which is right next to the Pottstown Roller Rink, which is very popular.

Yeah.

So it incorporated under the name Pottstown in 1815, becoming the second borough in Pennsylvania after Norristown.

I don't know the difference between towns and boroughs and all.

Every state has a different definition of how they do that, so I won't even get into that.

The railroad came in 1838.

They made an extension of it, and that way they'd have their finished goods.

They could get off on the rails.

Once that happened, the population grew and the metal production grew and steel from this borough was used in the Panama Canal and the Golden Gate Bridge.

Oh, that's great.

That's all there.

And then the steel industry in America kind of fell apart.

And like a lot of Midwestern towns, especially Pennsylvania, basically listen to Allentown from Billy Joel.

That's

they're talking about a coal, but it's the same thing.

It's the exact same thing.

So

the jobs went away.

People started, you know, started to deteriorate.

Not the people, the town.

I'm sure the people too.

People too.

If you got no job, you got no food.

Yeah.

Now, famous people from here.

Daryl Hall from Hall and Oates is from here.

There it is.

There you go.

That's why.

And their album, Abandoned Luncheonette from 1973, pictures, features a photo of the Rosedale Diner, which is in Pottstown, which his parents used to take him to when he was a kid.

So that's become like a tourist attraction now because of that.

Okay, that's great.

And he made songs that mentioned Pottstown and stuff like that.

Yeah.

Here's some reviews of this town.

And

they vary.

Let's just say that.

Here we go.

Here's five stars.

I think Potts Town is a very decent area to live in.

Very decent.

Very decent.

Very, very mid.

Very mid.

Very middle of the road.

I just think some areas aren't as safe as others, and the school district is not too good.

I believe housing is pretty cheap, and it's a solid area.

Sounds like a three-star review, but that's five stars.

It's just how he feels, though.

This guy doesn't know shit.

He didn't look up a single thing.

He hasn't left his house.

He's agoraphobic and he's like...

I think this happens.

This is why I don't leave the house.

This is what I got in my mind.

So here's my solid opinion on that based on that pronunciation.

One star, the town is horrible.

New Jersey is so much better and Brad is from here.

Everything about this town is bad and it sucks.

Big fan of Brad.

I think this is Brad's friend breaking his balls on niche is what that is.

One star, Pottstown is an area about an hour outside of Philadelphia that I want to get out of.

Oh, that's great.

It saddens me as I walk to the park or to church and see all the broken down houses, people on the streets without work.

I moved to San Diego.

However, my mother passes away and brought me back to Pennsylvania.

Yeah, I got to come back.

I got to come back now.

She lived in Pottstown, so I moved there

to be able to clean her home out.

But even now, I cannot walk past her apartment building.

In fact, I will go blocks out of the way just so I don't have to pass her apartment.

I miss her so much.

This is one-star review for Mom Dying.

That's what this is.

Mom Died, one star.

That's what that is.

It has nothing to do with the town.

I miss mother.

Yeah, walking by her apartment makes you cry.

Don't review the town.

What are you talking about?

I'm going to go dig up a corpse and put her on my.

Yeah, I was going to say, this is how Ed Gein got started.

One star, a disgusting, filthy, hoarder-ridden town.

Oh, there's a bunch of hoarders.

You can see inside their houses.

Dead cats as far as the eye can see.

A hoarder-ridden town dotted with drug addicts and religious extremists where abuse of children, teenagers, and young adults run rampant.

Wow.

Wow.

So if they're,

are they fucking kids in the house?

That's hoarded?

I don't know.

That'd be hard.

That's a lot.

A lot to overcome.

I got out a decade ago.

I will never go back.

Okay.

Why'd you review this 10 years later?

Why do you give a shit?

Imagine looking in your rearview that hard and be like, I'm going to tell everyone.

Just weird.

Back there sucks, and I need everybody to know.

I need them to know.

People in this town, 23,282.

So pretty good-sized town.

Not bad.

And a lot of that is, too, is it's cheap, and you can commute to Philly from here.

Yeah, it's only an hour away.

So that's not bad.

It is way more women than men, which is strange for a town of this size.

52.4% women and 47.6% men.

Median age here, 35.4, so that's below the national average.

A lot of times you get towns like this, you get an older crowd, but I think maybe the closeness to Philly is keeping it lower.

It's only 40% married here, but

almost 25% are single with children, which is above the national average too.

Race in this town, 65.6% white, 20.3% black, 0.6% Asian, 6.5% Hispanic.

Religion is big in this town, 64% religious here.

Catholic is a motherfucker.

Yeah, it's usually 50-50.

And as you know,

here it's 38.5% Catholic.

As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the North.

They're going to be the main group wherever you are there.

Average unemployment here,

not very,

it's a little bit below average, actually.

So there's jobs at this point.

And with Philly an hour away, it's like, should be able to find something.

The median household income here is $52,722 a year, which is well below the $69,000 national average.

And the cost of living, $100,000 is regular, you know, normal.

Here it's $114,000.

So more expensive.

The housing is the cheapest thing out of all of these.

The median home cost here, $297,800,

which is less than the national average.

But

you might be convinced.

You have to come here.

Well, you know what?

You can get a hoarder house real cheap.

You might be a rich girl.

You never know.

Who the hell knows?

We'll find out.

We'll find out if you're a maniac,

maniac on the floor.

You need to move to Pottstown.

And we have for you the Potstown, Pennsylvania Real Estate Report.

Okay, your average two-bedroom rental here goes for $1,240, which is around the national average.

The first house we have here, it's not even a house, it's a strip of land.

It's basically somebody's side yard.

I'm going to show this to you exactly what you get.

How much room is that?

You see this picture?

The house here, house here?

You see the grass behind the telephone pole?

That's the land that's for sale.

They're selling that?

You couldn't build, you could build like a tree fort there if you put a tree in it, like a clubhouse.

How much trouble are they in financially that they got to sell off that?

It's 20.

2,140.

Literally a yard sale.

2,142 square feet of land.

Literally a yard sale.

Yeah.

It's crazy.

That's all it is.

It's 1107 South Street in Potsdown.

$9,000 for that.

They gave that an address.

That's crazy.

Yeah, it's so weird.

You'd think the person next to it would just want to buy it.

Nine grand?

Just mortgage it off, pay $8 a month, and just who cares?

Yeah, that way you have a bigger yard now.

Next up here, two-bedroom, one-bath, 1,127 square feet.

But it's a cute little house.

I'll show you here.

It's got the brick.

Nice little brick with the siding up top.

I love the nice tree out front.

That's nice.

Oh, yeah.

No, very nice trees out there.

Landscaping's nice here.

It's built in 1938.

Oh.

This house is $259,900.

Okay.

Just had a $5,000 reduction as well.

Reduction.

Yes.

The other one, too, the land had a $1,000 reduction.

It was $10,000.

Now it's $9,000.

You can get it for two.

Let's be realistic here, probably.

This place is on sale.

You go in there with two cash and plunk it down.

They're going to give you that strip of land.

And then just use it to party and just fuck that neighborhood up

Just party

then finally here.

We have a three-bedroom six bathroom 3334 or 44 square foot house.

It's really kind of a cool house if you see I don't like the metal roof so much, but the rest of the house is cool.

You know that that roof has grown on me.

I fucking love those now.

It's not that bad.

Look at the kitchen.

The kitchen's real cool with the cabin.

It's a big old island.

It's nice.

Those things don't leak, man.

There's nowhere for water to get through.

No, no, that's cool.

I just don't want to hear it

yeah yeah i suppose if you got enough room in the attic or some insulation up there then big enough house um this is built in 97 it's on two acres nine hundred ninety nine thousand dollars a million dollars and it just had a fifty one thousand dollar price cut it was over a million yep it just happened like three days ago it had this price cut so if you want that house knock yourself out things to do in this town here we go let's find out what there is to do not a lot by the way um no not a lot in terms of organized things.

There's stuff to do.

It's just I found the

Pottstown Go Forth 2025.

Go forth, like the 4th of July, because it's the Independence Day.

Yeah.

Pottstown community celebration.

And there's live music, tethered hot air balloon rides.

Yeah.

Which you might as well just go to the second story of a building at that point.

What's the...

Hey, you're tethered.

What are we doing?

I mean, that's the best way to do a hot air balloon.

I think.

I guess.

But, like, why bother?

Keep that fucker anchored.

But, yeah, why not?

If all the balloons are in use, too, they just have a ladder you can stand on top of.

Find a construction crane operator.

Yeah, there you go.

Throw a sawbuck.

Yeah.

Grand pop bubbles.

I don't know what that is.

I don't know.

Inflatables, face painting, food trucks, beer garden, vendors and artisans, and a rotary duck race as well.

And there's going to be live music, which they don't say what that consists of.

And of course, obviously a fireworks show to round out the day.

They say, heck yeah, Potts Town.

Y'all made this one for the books.

Free lounge from lounging on the lawn to sky blasting fireworks.

It all went down right here.

Oh, and all of it was for free.

That's all for free.

You can go watch it.

And then...

If you're bored with that,

you need to rock a bit.

You need to rock.

Well, tickets are on sale.

I don't know if this is actually happening now or if it already happened, but get ready for a night of high-energy Van Halen classics and deep cuts.

Covers.

Not performed by Van Halen, obviously.

Performed by America's number one Van Halen tribute.

Oh, boy.

There they are.

It is Romeo Delight's Van Halen experience.

Romeo Delights.

I'll show them to you.

Oh, my.

They're clearly going with the David Lee Roth era.

Yeah, yeah.

They have fucked a lot of 1982

dive war women.

Yeah, they clean up in the 55 and over department, I feel like.

They're doing all right.

Yeah.

They sing jump just to see which of the ladies can still jump.

Can do it.

And those are the active ones.

You want to get with one of those.

So, yeah, this is happening in the Sunny Brook Ballroom.

Yeah.

Yeah, September.

Oh, looks like we missed it.

September 13th.

Oh, it just happened.

Oh, we missed it.

Damn it.

I'm sure they'll come to a town near you if you're that.

It's touring like the fucking Renaissance Fair.

You know it.

Now, crime rate, what we are interested in in this town here, property crime, almost double the national average.

Oh.

Shit is crazy.

Dangerous.

Steal your shit here.

Absolutely.

And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault.

The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one-third above the national average, also.

Oh, boy, is it dangerous?

I don't know what is going on in this town with 23,000 people, but they need to chill

the fuck out.

Potts Town is off the chain.

Potts Town.

Yeah.

Pottsville.

You too, Pottsville.

Get your shit together.

Cold Pottsburg.

Cold Pottsburg.

It was Pottsburg.

And then they were like, well, I mean, it's a little close.

Sued by Pittsburgh.

It was a mess.

So let's talk about some murder.

What are you saying here?

All right, let's get into this because holy hell is this a crazy twisted mess.

All right, let's talk about a couple.

Let's talk about David and Patricia.

Let's start there.

Okay.

Let's start with David Anthony Swinehart.

Okay.

Swine, H-A-R-T.

Really?

Swinehart.

One word.

He's born in 1938.

And

this is going to go down in the early 80s.

So, you know, he's kind of in the prime of his life at this point.

Now, his father was kind of a blue-collar guy.

His father, Harvey.

His mother, Alice, was a homemaker.

He somehow got this

thing in his head that he needed to make a lot of fucking money.

And that's all it was about.

He's definitely, I don't know where he got it.

His family wasn't like that.

They were just regular, you know, blue-collar middle-class people.

But he was like, no, no, no, I need more.

I need more.

Now he's got a couple of sisters.

He's got a brother named Robert.

One of his sisters, that'll come into play.

One of his sisters will have two sons, and that'll be something that comes up here.

Now,

in the 1960s, Robert,

David, I'm sorry, Robert's his brother, David started buying properties.

This is when Potts Town was still happening.

This is when they were still making shit here and there were still factories.

And, you know, this isn't, this isn't like,

for some reason, when I picture this town, I picture Slapshot.

I picture the Slapshot town because it's the same.

It's all a bunch of those dying steel towns in Pennsylvania.

But they were dying in the late 70s, like when Slapshot was made.

Part of that plot was they were closing down the mill.

You know, that was a part, and then the people wouldn't afford to go to the game, so they were going to fold the team.

That was part of it.

So this is kind of the same thing, but in the 60s, it was still, something was still going on here.

Now, he ends up buying a lot of the town, as we'll talk about.

Really?

Yes, him and his lady that he meets here, Patricia.

That's going to be his wife.

They get married in 1972.

She's about five years younger than him.

She also came from, you know, middle to lower middle class upbringing.

Yeah.

Another, you know, like that.

So these two kind of middle class kids are going to make a go of being rich.

They're going to try to do it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, as of about 1973 here, mid-70s, he has

really done well for himself, David and Patricia together.

Buying property and such?

Yes, he's turned into a real estate developer, and he's worth about $20 million by 1973.

What?

Which is big money in 1973.

I mean, that's not adjusted for inflation.

That's 20 million

in 73.

Yeah, that's $150 million.

I mean,

he's really doing well.

Apparently, he is a workaholic, too.

He works 18 hours a day.

You don't get $20 million without working your fucking balls off.

If you came from nothing and you don't have an education, but you're hustling, you got to hustle a lot.

So he built apartment complexes.

That was his main thing.

He'd build these apartment complexes and then strip malls he got into because that became, this is the time when strip malls started to really come into

be a thing, basically.

So he started building strip malls.

It is a genius thing that they did with that.

Well, yeah, for a while.

Sell everything and park once and get everything.

Yeah, yeah, it was.

But for some reason, it got a bad rap after a while, the strip mall.

Yeah, because it's because it just.

It's an eyesore, obviously.

Yeah, and it's a traffic

congesting thing for neighborhoods.

It does a lot of things that are negative, but it does a lot of things that are fucking great for neighborhoods.

And that's the thing.

You just have in your drugstore, grocery store, and one parking lot.

Absolutely.

And some strip malls are very successful and some aren't, basically.

We've seen those strip malls where there's 14 stores, two of them are filled.

Yeah.

And you're like, this is a disaster.

Once one's available, it looks like the whole town's dying.

It looks terrible.

I remember at 19th and Thunderbird.

Yeah.

Or 19th and Northern by where I used to be.

Oh, Jesus.

Way worse.

There was like that subway.

Yeah.

And there was like a immigration law office in there and everything else was like shut down.

Shuttered.

But they had like signs up from like, you know, typewriter repair, like shit that obviously no one's been there since 1988.

You know what I mean?

Shoe cobbling and shit like that.

Like, where am I?

It's a mess.

So the sign for the business is still there, but then in the window, it screams that giant available

And that available banner is like the kiss of death to a brand new brand.

Bright yellow.

Looks awful.

Screams, this business couldn't thrive here.

It says we can't even get a Boost Mobile to rent this.

This is a mess.

Not good.

Not good.

So he, David, he owns whole blocks of houses.

Okay.

Yeah.

He owns a newspaper.

Oh.

A travel agency, apartment buildings, and an entire village that he built, that he owned.

Wow.

A whole village he made.

He's hugely just trying to make money, trying to, you know, parlay this into that and flip this and build this.

And he's got a lot of plates spinning.

And he really comes out with, like I said, a lot of cash.

They have a big house.

He's got a private helicopter at one point.

Wow.

He's got tennis courts, a swimming pool.

Living a different life.

He had 235 properties in Montgomery County, including St.

Peter's Village, which is a 350-acre tourist resort near French Creek State Park.

So, I mean, he has got so much going on.

Now, he's very well known around the area as well, not only because his name is on a million signs for when they're building shit or when shit's for sale or things like that, but he stands out.

You can see the guy from space, for Christ's sake.

Is he a big guy?

He's a big, giant guy.

He's 250 pounds.

And wealthy.

And wealthy.

And

very,

very

word I'm looking for.

Very conspicuous, let's just say.

In his appearance as a human.

He dresses like a shit, too.

He's real sloppy.

Really?

He'll have like his shirt all hanging out of the back, like his front tucked in, the back hanging out.

He's a mess, this guy.

And that sticks out?

Well, that, in addition to the fact that he drives this crazy Cadillac that we'll talk about that everybody knows.

A homeless guy getting out of a Cadillac.

That's

a crazy red Cadillac.

It's more than that.

We'll talk about it.

But

yeah, he's got

a big giant house.

His wife, Patricia, she's wearing fur coats to the grocery store.

Oh, Jesus.

And this is in an area that starts to kind of crumble a little bit.

And they're, yeah, he's, you know, getting out of his Cadillac with all sorts of shit done to him.

She's walking around, pushing her cart with a fur coat on like an asshole.

So they're two couples from Goodfellas after the heist.

Yeah.

Combined into one.

That's exactly what it is.

No, shit.

It's my mother's name.

Take it back.

Take it back.

So, yeah, she's a big-time socialite because he works all the time.

So she's a socialite, knows everybody.

They're going to have four kids as well here.

By the early, by like 1981, they range in age from six to 17.

So they have David.

We'll go from oldest to youngest.

Carrie is the oldest, and then David is two years younger than her, David Jr., I suppose.

Then there is Christie, who is like six years younger than David, and then the youngest, who's 11 years younger than the oldest, is

Michael,

who is their youngest.

So all these kids they have.

Carrie, David,

Christy, and Michael?

Carrie, David, Michael, Christie, yeah.

Okay.

And, you know, they have

the kids look great and they're dressed nice and they have social standing and they have huge she-hosts like throws big elaborate dinner parties.

Yeah, yeah.

They're really into like the society of the area too.

Like they want to be the cool people.

Yeah, sure.

They're all of the exclusive people, all the politicians and lawyers and all that.

That's who they hang out with.

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They vacation in Europe every year.

Yeah.

You know how it goes.

You know the lifestyle, Jimmy.

I'm familiar.

We live it all the time.

You know, just got back from Paris a couple days ago.

You know, left my Cadillac with the bullhorns on the front at the airport.

You know,

I keep my boss hog in my driveway so everybody notices it.

You know what I mean?

Now, David, like I said, 18-hour days, works on the weekends, does everything.

Family dinner, phone rings.

It's a business call.

He's not coming back to dinner.

He's involved in that.

So he's always kind of on call.

And he has to be for this.

And he loves it.

He's a workaholic.

He's into this.

Now, he's really just an eccentric guy, though.

One employee described him as a, quote, comical dresser, comical.

Like he's

funny, not just a slob, but like hilarious.

Big shoes.

He said, almost.

He often wore ill-fitting pants with his shirt tail hanging out.

And he carried around a seltzer bottle to squirt people with.

What are we talking about?

A spraying flower on his little.

Yeah, exactly.

It's crazy.

He also, next to his office, he built his kids a gym

right next to the office so they could play.

And he also has a pet tarantula.

Why?

He's just a weird guy.

He's just a weird guy.

Now, his car is what he's most known for around town.

It is known as, quote, the pimpmobile.

Okay.

That's what everyone in town calls it, late 70s, early early 80s, the pimpmobile.

One of the cops in town said, the pimpmobile, that's what we all called it.

Yeah.

That's it.

Is that what it is?

The cop said, it's a Cadillac, a red and white Cadillac, and I'll let the cop describe it.

Okay.

Quote, he put on these oversized headlights and one of those Rolls-Royce grills, you know, like chong and up and smoke on his VW bug.

He put a different front end on the car.

He's crazy, this guy.

The cop goes on, this guy had money.

Nobody could ever figure out why he wanted a car like that.

Yeah.

It looks, yeah, he looks like a crazy person, but that's what he wants.

Why not buy a Rolls-Royce if you're that into a Rolls-Royce?

Just get one.

You have the money.

You can do it.

He was also known for throwing money around.

That's the other thing.

Everybody called him a high roller.

And he would spend, he would take the like people from his office.

They'd go for, quote, work trips to Las Vegas and Atlantic City, and he would pay for everybody's everything.

There'd be a $500 tab.

He'd pick that up, no problem.

Other times, they'd be in a bar.

He'll just buy a round of drinks for everyone in the bar.

Okay.

One employee remembered a night where David had friends he was entertaining in a restaurant.

He invited everybody.

This was the inn at St.

Peter's, which is the place that he owns that near.

So anyway,

people became a little pissed off that his party was making too much noise because he's a big loud guy.

So to apologize to everybody, he paid everybody's bills in the entire restaurant.

All right, that is pretty good.

Probably cost him eight, nine, ten grand that night to be a little bit more.

So he could be himself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A friend of his said he was a hardworking businessman, but on his off-duty hours, he was a fun-loving man.

He enjoyed life to the fullest.

And he does enjoy life to the fullest, including the marriage is starting to fall apart here by 1981-ish here.

What's Dave doing?

Well,

they're not getting along because he's never home.

I mean, it's not unreasonable to go, can you not work 18 hours every day?

Weekends included.

You got to assume he's not going to be home.

He's off busy earning $20 million, but you got to have a ceiling

of like, when can I coast?

Yeah, that's the thing.

When can I start with the family time?

And the problem is he's got some issues here.

So the marriage is in trouble.

David moves out in early 1981.

He leaves the house.

Later on, somebody said there were allegations of infidelity and rumors flying around for a while.

Dang.

And somebody who knows the whole thing said, quote, David went to live with his girlfriend, leaving his wife at home with the children.

He just found a younger woman.

Definitely was doing that.

He just found a younger chick he wanted to hang out with here.

It's during this time that there's also a cash flow problem.

There's a real estate, there's a bad real estate drop because this is interest rates were extremely high.

People think they're high now.

They were fucking

soaring back then.

So he had a cash flow problem, and he had trouble sometimes paying his water bills for his properties.

Oh, wow.

Which is basic minimum.

So everybody was talking about did he overextend himself and shit like that.

But he still had cash to throw around when he went out and things like that.

But tenants in his apartments complained that he refused to maintain the apartments and houses that he rented out.

Slumlord too?

So now he's turned into a kind of a slumlord, yeah.

Dang it.

So in May of 81, 57 judgments totaling almost $15 million in business loans were filed against him.

Oh, boy.

In the Montgomery County Court by the Red Hill Savings and Loan Association of Red Hill.

Court records show that later on in the year, though, by the end of 81, he obtained a release of judgment for all but two of the judgments in exchange for various parcels of property.

So he made good with it.

He owed people money, but he would, instead of paying him much,

he would call them good.

That's all.

They would trade for property and do that.

Now, his new girlfriend is named Sarah Skye.

S-K-Y.

Oh.

Sarah Skye.

And she's young and blonde and hot.

It sounds like a girl that Brazz has under contract.

Exactly.

Sarah Skye, definitely.

There's definitely a porn star named Sarah Skye.

I'm sure there is.

There would have to be.

Sarah Skye.

Yeah, that's too good.

If not,

ladies,

get on it.

Yeah, get your fucking...

You're looking up Sarah Skye XXX?

I damn.

Is there one that's not?

Why do I keep typing an E?

You want it to be.

Oh, there is.

There is.

Of course there is.

Of course there is.

That is amazing.

One with an H and one without, James.

Yo, perfect.

And I doubt it'd be her because she's like 70 years old by now.

So, yeah.

This girl's probably, well, she might be too.

We don't know.

Oh, no.

She doesn't make any fucking money today.

Yeah, who knows?

So, yeah,

she's, you know, 10 years younger than Patty, so maybe 15 years younger than him and Patricia.

So, you know,

he's not even trying to hide the affair by

81.

He's not even doing it.

He had moved out of the house.

He moved in with Sarah.

And what he would do is, though, every night he would drive to the house on Mauger's Hill, Mauger's Mill Road.

That's his house, the family home.

He would drive there to have dinner with Patricia and the kids.

Okay.

Help with homework.

You know, tuck the little kids into bed.

And then see you later back to Sarah's house.

Head on back home to Sarah.

Head on back home.

Yep.

All right.

So that's how this is going.

And this went on for months and months and months,

which is interesting.

She said, Patricia said he would often stop home to change his clothes and maybe take a shower before going out for the night.

Yeah.

He'd like

he'd leave reeking a paco, Raban, just fucking, you know, CK1 pouring off of him as he walked out the door going out to party that night, which is interesting.

So

Patricia, by this time, by the summer of 81, it's a big house and she needs help around this house.

Sure.

You know, she's got four kids and doing all this shit, and she needs kind of, she needs some help around the house.

So she calls upon a nephew for help,

David's nephew.

Oh, he's gone, but you can help me.

David's nephew is Thomas Scott DeBlaise,

D-E-B-L-A-S-E, DeBlase, DeBlaise, DeBlas, whatever.

DeBlaise.

De Blaise.

Thomas.

He's born November 7th, 1958.

So 20 years younger than

David.

At this point, he's 23 years old.

He was the Potstown High School star quarterback in high school.

Oh, yeah.

He's six feet tall and muscular.

Didn't do anything with that, though.

He's the kind of just the atypical small-town quarterback who didn't go anywhere, and then he's working construction two years later.

That's what he is.

So that's what he does.

He works construction.

His mother is David's sister.

Now,

he shares kind of the same features as David as well, dark hair and kind of things like that.

But he's like a young, trim, muscular, attractive version rather than the 20 years later shirt tail hanging out of the back of your pants, 250 pound sloppy drunk version.

So, but he has no business acumen or motivation or,

any kind of anything like that.

He's a good hand.

He can operate a shovel real good.

He can do that, exactly.

He worked construction, like we said, didn't go to college, no prospects, just swinging hammers, and he drinks down at the High Point Tavern or High Point Saloon or whatever it's called down on Main Street.

That's it.

Now, at family gatherings, he said that he started to notice Aunt Patricia was giving him looks, looking him up and down and all that.

Then she started calling him to the house for help, and he came right over.

And then she started confiding in him about old Uncle David's affairs,

crying on his shoulder.

And he, of course, comforted her and all that.

Now, he has an older brother as well named Jeffrey Todd DeBlaise.

He's like a year and a half older.

Now, so these two are the two nephews of David.

Now, in 1981,

by the summer of 81,

he thinks Patricia's, quote, cheating, which is hilarious because he's living with a chick.

He's living with a woman.

That's wild.

So

he thinks a divorce is going to be coming up soon, David.

So he needed proof that Patricia was cheating.

So he bugged the house.

He put in these tape recording systems that record every call that comes in the house and all that.

He puts this elaborate shit.

You have to be rich to do this back in 1981 here.

And Patricia talks on the phone all the time.

So David installed a line-activated tape recorder, which, by the way, is very illegal in Pennsylvania.

It's not really illegal, yeah.

But not really if it's your own house.

That's the problem.

Oh, okay.

If it's your own house.

He's got a little loophole.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's kind of hard to do that.

But David didn't give a shit if it was legal or not.

He wanted to get proof that his wife was cheating.

So when they got divorced, he didn't have to give her anything.

So he ends up getting on tape all sorts of late-night phone calls between Patricia and nephew Thomas.

Oh, Jesus.

Not only is she fucking someone else,

his nephew,

his way younger nephew.

Yeah.

And they're sitting there.

It's real romantic shit and, you know,

explicit plans for what they're going to do next time they see each other and how they're going to fuck.

Oh, boy.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

It's graphic shit for sure.

Creepy.

Not very good going on here.

And in divorce court, not going to look great for her.

No.

Mainly because he's a family member.

That's the main thing.

That's the biggest problem.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's one thing cheating because she's noble.

He's cheating, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's not going to create a...

a genetic issue, but it's going to create some fucking problems at the table.

Uncomfortable Thanksgiving.

I'll tell you that fucking much.

It's going to be real weird coming Eastern Easter and Christmas.

Going to be real weird.

Holy shit.

So Joan Raynor is a friend of David's and said because the divorce was going to be so costly for him, David required leverage.

So October 1981, Patricia files for a divorce.

Okay.

And she is,

she's got a good lawyer and she wants a lot.

She says, I want half of everything.

Yeah.

Also, the house, alimony, child support.

She wanted to

maintain the lifestyle that his money had provided for them.

And she's got four kids he's got to support there.

Then

she files all that, and then they file a thing back saying, well, he's got no money.

So he's broke.

He's actually in fuckloads of debt is what it is.

Oh, so you can have half of that.

You can have half of nothing is what you can have, is what they basically tell her.

You can have half of worse than nothing.

You can have half these bills.

They said the recession recession killed the property values, the recession of the late 70s, and really up till about 1985, and then it was good for about two years, and then another recession.

So there was that, and

the interest rates, everything else had turned him into shit.

It turned his portfolio into shit.

The banks are circling like vultures.

Yeah.

It's not good.

They said that he had informed her and her attorneys that

he was insolvent and he was receiving a $500 weekly stipend from Red Hill Savings and Loan, to which he owed about $13 million to them.

And growing.

And growing.

Yeah.

The only asset he had is his life insurance, which is $523,000.

Okay.

So he's got that.

They would pay out if he dies, but other than that...

Other than that, you're stuck.

You're getting nothing.

Yeah.

You're really not getting shit.

He's literally broke.

He's super broke.

In December of 1981, the owner of The Guardian, a weekly newspaper based in Montgomery County City, which is David, he owns this.

Him and his two partners sold the Belmont apartments that he had for $1.7 million in December.

So he's trying to get his portfolio

at least to where your chin's above water.

He's just trying to get there, just be able to breathe a little bit.

Now, January 15th, 1982, this is all going on.

By the way, during all of this, all of the

I want half of everything and I want the house and him saying I'm broke, he's still coming over every night.

Really?

Still coming over to eat dinner with the kids, still doing all that kind of shit.

I guess you got to, for the kids, keep that shit

under your hat until.

I'd like to talk to a psychiatrist or psychologist about that because

I'm not sure if that's good or if that just prolongs this and makes it weirder.

I'm not sure.

I can't believe it's possible for them.

No, it's been going on for like a year, though.

That's a long.

I could see

that.

But a year is crazy.

So this night, January 15th,

he showed up for dinner.

It's the usual family dinner at the house, 284 Mauger's Mill Road.

The kids are jacked.

Mom, dad's here.

It's great.

The kids said, too, mom seemed in a decent mood tonight.

They were actually, everybody was conversing nice.

There was not that weird tension that's been there a lot of the time.

They both were happy about the upcoming accord date.

This is going to be great.

David helped

his youngest daughter with her spelling homework,

hung out with his teenage son, talked some basketball, told Patricia the pot roast was delicious.

Everything was great.

Now, by 8 p.m., the younger children are in bed.

The teenagers are in their rooms, obviously.

What is it, 82?

With giant headphones on, listening to Areo Speedwagon, I assume?

Probably.

That's all I can think.

They're doing that.

Patricia walks David to the door and says, drive safe.

He walks out, his red Cadillac there, the Pimp Mobile.

Yeah, right out front.

Pimp Mobile is parked in the driveway.

Usually he would park in the garage, but he wasn't parked in the garage tonight.

So he was parked out front.

Now, he's supposed to be meeting up with friends, but he never shows up

that night to hang out with friends.

He could date with Sarah Skye.

Who knows?

He could be doing anything.

So they don't think too much of it, but they call him try to find him, can't find him, whatever.

Now, the next day, he's supposed to have gone into his office the next day, Saturday the 16th.

That's a Friday, the 15th.

On the 15th.

that day we just talked about, he left

revised insurance papers on his office desk.

He told his secretary to meet him back in the office the next day, a Saturday, to help him finish the paperwork, which would, quote, effectively change the beneficiary from Patricia to a trustee for his children on his life insurance.

Building up a trust.

All right, good.

Rather than her having it, it would be someone holding it for his kids.

Yeah.

He never showed up to work Saturday to do this, though.

No.

Imagine you come in on a Saturday.

Because your boss wants you to, and you're like, God damn it, I have to go in and deal with his personal shit, too.

This isn't even business.

And then he doesn't even show up.

You'd be pissed.

It's all me?

I can't do anything with this.

It's his insurance papers.

So, according to,

he never showed up.

That's all we know.

All we know is the last time he was around, January 15th, he had left his office, visited his mother for a minute, then drove to his old house, had dinner, and took off.

Very normal.

So

by Sunday comes, and still nobody's heard from David.

Now people are starting to get a little bit worried.

What's going on here?

Yeah.

And they don't find like his car isn't where it usually is.

His car isn't parked at either the house or at Sarah's house.

It's very strange here.

Then the 18th comes around.

Oh.

And it's David's birthday.

It's his 44th birthday.

So people are trying to get a hold of him, obviously.

Patricia, by this day, he doesn't show up.

They have like cake for him at the house with the kids.

They're all waiting for him to come over for his birthday.

They got candles lit, and he's not showing up.

So they're like, okay, this is weird.

So Patricia calls the police and reports David missing.

Yeah.

She said he left Friday from this house and never came back.

They go to talk to Sarah.

She said, I have no idea where he is.

He didn't come back Friday.

I never saw him Friday.

He never came home.

So they're like, okay.

His office was locked.

Oh.

So that's safe and secure.

Nobody like, you know, rolled him at his office or anything.

His red Cadillac, nowhere to be, pimpmobile, gone, nowhere to be found.

So it's really odd.

So they're looking into it, and they find out that he was expected to meet friends on Friday night, but never showed up.

Then he missed several more meetings scheduled for the weekends, and then obviously his own birthday party.

So that's the point of this.

Now, later that day,

after he's been reported missing, there's a beat cop named Timothy Morrison, and he was checking alleys in downtown Pottstown, basically looking for homeless people that are going to die in the cold.

Yeah, saving some lives.

That's basically what he does, this type of thing.

There's not a whole lot going on otherwise.

Then behind the Maple Street apartment complex, which by the way, David owns.

He owns that, yeah.

He sees a red and white Cadillac with a Rolls-Royce grill on it.

Not a lot of those.

Yeah, not a lot of those rolling around Pottstown, probably.

Probably only one in the country.

I'm going to say, yeah.

It's been there.

It's not, didn't just get there.

The windows are completely covered in frost.

You know, it's been there for three days in January in Pennsylvania.

So this guy approaches and kind of wipes off the rear window, you know, gets some frost out and looks in just to see what's going on here.

And he kind of jumps back from the car because what he saw was what looked like a frozen human being on the floor in the back seat.

On the back, okay.

And he thinks there's blood all over the car, too.

So he says, holy shit, bets out of there, calls for, you know, detectives and people like that.

They open up the car and David is behind the, he's on the floor

in the back seat, behind the front seats, on the floor.

He's wearing a white ski sweater and brown pants that are pulled all the way down.

Sure.

And that's where he is.

He is frozen solid, by the way.

Solid, like Frankie Carbone and Goodfellas.

Like it took them three days to thaw him out.

It's that kind of solid.

Which is crazy.

So

he's covered in blood, too.

There's blood, all frozen blood all over him, and he's frozen.

Which is crazy.

Pants and underpants pulled down, exposing his ass, basically, sticking up at everybody.

They do think that that is as a result of being dragged into the car.

Okay.

They think his pants came down from being dragged under the shoulders there yeah.

Like that.

So they perform an autopsy, and they find out that they feel like he was still alive when he was brought into

the backseat floor of the Cadillac.

Yeah.

They think he was definitely still alive.

They said it's hard to tell a lot of things because he was frozen for three days and

some stuff.

But they say he's been beaten over the head at least six times,

six separate blunt force injuries to the head, and he's been stabbed at least 14 times.

Why the

that's a lot, yeah, yeah, that's a lot.

Um, he said that the initial crushing blow to the head would have probably killed him eventually, anyway.

Sure, yeah, but the rest of it obviously sped it up a little bit.

Um, they believe that the beating over the head was with a baseball bat, it's got that kind of characteristics to it, and 14 stab wounds are in the back, side, and buttocks.

Okay, stabbing a guy in the ass.

So, now they estimated he'd been dead for about 20 hours before the body was found, but they said you can't accurately predict time of death because he's frozen solid, which is why the Iceman froze people solid.

It was a thing.

That's the whole point.

The medical examiner said he believed that it had to have been more than one assailant involved because two weapons were apparently used.

Two very different weapons, a bat and a knife.

And also, not only for that, because one person could have bashed him and then stabbed him, but they said he's such a big guy, he would have probably needed two people to get him into the car.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's 250 pounds.

So they said they believe that robbery is not the motive because David still had his wallet with some money in it and change in his pocket, and he was wearing his expensive watch still.

Okay.

So not robbery.

Or that are terrible at their job, robbers.

Or just looking for something very specific.

Wanted the catalytic converter.

Wanted one-eyed Willie's map to his gold, and that's all.

Anything less than that, he's not accepting.

So, the car, the evidence in the car, there's blood all over the vehicle, not just in the back seat, it's everywhere.

So, that's interesting to try to piece that together.

Um, there's multiple blood types present as well.

Oh, so it's not just for all from him, yeah, there's fabric fibers that don't match David's clothing

from the assailant or assailants, and snow and dirt is in the car inconsistent with the alley it's located in meaning it was driven from somewhere else yeah that was like snow and and dirt that were on his shoes and on David elsewhere elsewhere so he was drug into the car somewhere else driven here they're thinking now remember it's 1982 no DNA testing sure

no the forensics are minor that now there's touch DNA

this is like that's not who even who even knew

that's what I mean if if they're if this was then, like, let's say this was 25 years ago, Brian Koberger, they wouldn't even have talked to him probably.

Right.

Well, they might have because his car was driving around a lot, but they wouldn't have had anything to arrest him on.

And the

cell phone stuff would be weird, but that's all that they would be able to

arrest a guy on for murder.

Fuck no.

So that's what I mean.

That touch DNA, that is brand fucking new.

It's amazing.

10-year-old technology.

We don't even care about your fingerprint at this point.

Oh, who cares?

Yeah, screw your fingerprint.

I don't care.

Back then, all they had was fingerprints and blood types.

That's it.

And they have no fingerprints.

So they think whoever did this wore gloves, which would make sense too, because it was January at night.

So everybody's wearing gloves pretty much.

Yeah.

Now they go into the investigation of who the fuck could have done this.

And the first thing they think is, does he have any enemies?

Do you think a fucking ruthless real estate developer who owns a newspaper has no enemies?

I don't think so.

He's got a shitload of enemies.

Yeah.

It's like Omar said in The Wire when his boy got killed.

He said, his enemies got enemies.

That's where we're at with David.

Mo money, mo problems.

And you got 20 million in the 70s?

You probably got 20 million enemies.

And you owe people money now, and you have how many tenants that someone might have a hot water heater you didn't fix on time?

There is a million reasons for murder.

People have moved out and still hate him.

Oh, yeah.

An investigator said, quote, enemies, we could fill City Hall with people who hated David Swinehart.

There you go.

That's not good.

That's bad.

They said, shit, they were even, they said they were interested in a couple of particular enemies of his that had, you know,

tenants and people like that, people that did business deals with him that didn't work out, that had threatened him and shit like that.

So that's a bad place to start.

Half the town hates him.

Okay, that's not good.

Then they also have to suspect Patricia, too, because she's got the the financial motive because she's not getting a goddamn thing.

And now, if he's dead, she gets $523,000.

So

a little bit different.

This is an investigator.

They talked to Patricia right away.

And she told an investigator, quote, he told me divorce was inevitable.

He didn't love me, and I didn't love him.

But we would handle it like adults.

She was saying, look, we knew we were getting divorced, but we decided to not be dicks and not fuck the kids up about it.

Yeah.

So these are all within a few days.

She has three different police statements here.

She professed complete ignorance when asked about the crime.

I have no idea who killed him.

That's,

she said, I quote, I can't imagine anyone doing anything like that.

And at some point, she asked the interrogators, what happened?

Can you tell me what happened?

I don't even know what happened.

She said, what exactly, what were his injuries and things like that?

She's asking the right questions.

Those are all the right questions to ask.

Absolutely.

But January 20th, now, this is less than 48 hours after his body's found,

they also want to execute a search warrant.

And they don't say it's to try to pin Patricia up, but it's also just to see if there's anything they can glean from his professional papers or anything like that.

So they do a search warrant at the house that Patricia is living in now.

And what they find is not so much in the house, it is outside the house.

Well, they do end up finding blood in the bathroom of the home.

Okay.

But that is very tricky.

I'm from an America.

I challenge anybody to go over your bathroom with a DNA crime scene crew and not find your blood in there.

Your blood is in your body.

Any blood?

That's crazy.

Yeah.

Your blood is in your bathroom.

Everybody's is.

You've cut yourself.

If I change a razor.

It's a blood bath in there.

Yeah.

Dude,

we've all done it.

It's bad.

Hey, everybody.

Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you about a new series on Prime Video coming out right now on October 22nd.

Oh, it's Harlan Coban's Lazarus.

Absolutely best-selling mystery writer Harlan Coban returns to television with a twisted tale of lies, murder, and long-buried family secrets.

Harlan Coban's written 37 novels, and they're all this, you know, when you get to the last page, it happens type of thing.

And it's really cool.

He's a great author, and you really want to see this.

Harlan Harlan Coban's Lazarus stars Sam Claflin and Bill Nye he's the older actor you've seen him in a ton of stuff he's really great actor premieres October 22nd only on prime video it looks like a real the tons of death and killings and mayhem and all sorts of stuff going on you want some blood this is the place to get it Harlan Coben's Lazarus Lazarus you should definitely check this out it looks really cool it looks really exciting and it looks like uh something that you're gonna have to watch till the the end.

Can't wait.

Don't miss Harlan Coben's Lazarus streaming October 22nd only on Prime Video.

Now back to the show.

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That's kind of, they don't really know much about that, but they find blood outside the house

next to the garage in the snow.

Okay.

They find bloody snow out there.

How much?

Really pops the red on the white.

You know what I mean?

And it's type O blood, which is David's blood type.

Okay.

So we know that, but we can't find no DNA yet, obviously.

And 45% of the population is O positive.

So

could be anybody, really.

But still, they find blood next to the garage.

That's something to go on.

Now,

they asked Patricia about it.

She said, no, I don't know anything.

She said, who would do this to David?

He had no enemies, which we know isn't true.

She said that

they said, well, what about there's blood, all this blood?

And she said, oh, yeah, David cut himself when he was fixing the garage door last week.

That's where blood came from.

That's where those drops came from.

And then they said, well, you know, you hadn't seen him for a weekend.

What happened there?

And she said, well, I assumed he was with his girlfriend.

Oh.

And she said, we were working things out for the children.

And she didn't mean working them out, like get back together, but they were working out the whole situation.

Yeah,

keeping it civil for the kids.

That's all.

Now, there's a funeral, obviously.

It's at the St.

James United Church of Christ.

Hundreds of people are there.

Everybody knows this guy.

Huge, giant thing.

It's all the elite business people and the politicians and everything like that.

They're all there.

Lawyers.

You're that rich in that small town with that many real estate deals.

You know every lawyer in town.

Absolutely.

All those people.

Patricia stood at the casket, dressed in all black with the children beside beside her, greeting everybody and taking condolences from everybody like that.

Thomas and Jeffrey are there, his nephews as well.

They're all there standing with the family, being supportive,

everything like that.

She, oh, the youngest girl placed a drawing near the casket, a stick figure of the family that says, I love you, Daddy, and crayon.

That's heartbreaking.

She said,

Patricia said, now let's make everybody cry and put that shit shit out on the thing.

That'll break.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

That's the point in a funeral when I saw a very hardened mafia gangster cry at a funeral because a little girl did.

For Christ's sake, there's a kid's drawing.

Oh, it was wild.

Yeah.

He's like, I offered him a tissue.

He goes, man, I've cried and years.

I'm fine.

And then two minutes later, he goes, give me one of those.

Anyway.

It was terrible.

Oh, it was sad, dude.

It was sad.

So

then they look at his lawyer, Stephen J.

Proctor, tells homicide detectives at the time of his death, David was in the process of cutting Patricia out of the life insurance because the cops didn't know that till then and reverting all his life insurance proceeds to a trust for his children.

They said he was killed literally that weekend is when we were doing the paperwork.

Yeah.

Because remember, he had it on his desk to take care of it on Saturday.

So they were like, we were were finishing it.

They also, so they were like, so this is the day before he was to write his wife out of his insurance deal.

Now, on one hand, that looks very bad for Patricia.

Sure does.

But on the other hand, how the fuck would she know that?

Right.

He's just doing that in secret.

So that's the other thing.

So obviously if you have proof that she knows that.

Yeah, you wouldn't throw that right in her face and then go for dinner.

That's going to be an uncomfortable dinner.

That pot roast is going to be a little tough that evening, if you know what I mean.

So then police, while searching everything, including David's car,

his lawyer had some stuff that he handed over to the police, too, and they actually find a recorder itself.

Through all these tapes, they find all the tapes.

Oh,

Patricia and Thomas talking.

Yeah.

They had no fucking idea that that was going on until then.

None.

They were like, oh, what is this about?

Who is this?

You're going to do what to his balls?

Oh, my God.

Did they use jizz back in 82?

I guess they did.

I guess that word was very common.

Oh, so

they're like, well, we don't like that at all.

That's a shady thing because obviously he was taping her.

That means he knew about it.

So that could have caused some strife.

Or suspected at minimum.

Totally.

So they talked to nephew Thomas here.

And this is kind of a couple days after the murder.

They've really found, put everything together pretty quick.

Within a few days, they have a lot of kind of

structure.

Yeah,

a real basic structure of okay, who's involved with who and what's because you have to kind of put a family tree together and everything to figure out who could have done this.

Now, they talked to Thomas.

He denied any involvement or knowledge of the murder, obviously.

He said that, yes, I did have a romantic liaison with Aunt Patricia, though.

He said Aunt Patricia.

I hope he did.

I really hope he did.

He probably called her that, yeah.

Yeah.

He said, but I didn't kill anybody.

Yeah, I was banging my aunt, but you know, what the hell?

So

he then says, it's all I'll tell you.

I was banging her.

I didn't have anything to do with the murder.

I like an attorney.

I'm not answering any more questions.

Good answer.

Which is fine.

I gave you the answer, the things you need to know.

Now, leave me alone.

But then shortly after that, he does a second one.

They give him Miranda warnings, and he pretty much does the same thing.

Had an affair with her, didn't kill him, like a lawyer.

That's it.

Then they end up giving him a polygraph test.

Okay, which

I'm not sure of the results of because in court documents that's not admissible.

That's

a cop basically has to leak it later or something is the only way you're going to know.

But they give him a polygraph test.

Now, March 6th, 1982, that's when they're really looking over how broke he is, how broke David actually was.

in papers filed in

Montgomery County Orphans Court.

Orphans Court.

What is that?

I don't know.

Court for orphans.

The orphans get their own.

That's how they get anything, man.

We think these orphans have a whole...

They need a court, man.

Without this, they have nothing.

No one's paying attention to the orphans.

It's a hard knock life for them.

So he says that his estate is insolvent, and all assets of the estate have been required to pay taxes and estate administrative expenses.

So no matter what will there was, there is nothing left in the estate.

It's a wash.

Wow.

Yeah.

So they said records show his holdings, including the historic St.

Peter's Village in Chester County, once totaled $20 million, but now his debts are about $20 million.

Oh, Jesus.

So really, he had a $40 million swing.

That's crazy.

He went from up 20 to down 20.

He had 20, spent it all, and spent 20 more.

Wow.

It's crazy that you have to have 20 to be able to get 20 more, though, to owe anybody.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Right.

And he did that because he did that based on property value.

Property value plummets.

Now he has nothing.

Exactly.

That's why real estate's a motherfucker.

You never know.

That's forces outside of you.

So the will that he had dated August 24th, 1981, called for nearly all of the estate to go into trusts for the four children.

He left his wife an amount exactly equal to the amount of my estate to which she would have been entitled to if I made no provision for her, quote unquote.

Under state law, a widow not provided for in a will may claim one-third of the estate.

So

if you're married to someone, you die, no matter where you gave your money to, she can claim a third of that.

Okay.

Yeah,

which makes sense because you're married, which means that some of that's hers too.

Sure.

You know, it's an equal thing.

So in addition to the St.

Peter's Village, he owns several travel agencies, apartment buildings, and other properties in the area, including the weekly Guardian newspaper published in Pottstown.

35 of his other properties were auctioned off earlier in the year here to satisfy $12 million in debts to the Red Hill Savings and Loan.

So they're trying to square his account, basically.

Now, April 1982, okay, few months later.

Remember, he has a brother, Robert?

David does.

It's his younger brother, Robert.

What a weird guy.

What a strange family.

David is this crazy, eccentric pimpmobile driving real estate mogul.

His brother's a big game hunter.

Oh, is that right?

A big game hunter.

Yes, which is very, very weird.

He idolizes his older brother, David, by the way.

Big game in fucking Pennsylvania?

Or he leaves?

No, he goes to Africa

to kill big game with a bow and arrow.

Oh, my God.

Yeah, he hunts very big animals with bow and arrows.

Dropping giraffes with a bow.

Fucking insane.

Yeah, that's crazy.

Some of his African exploits and the safaris with a bow and arrow appeared in the newspaper in 1966, describing his killing of an elephant, rhino, lion, leopard, sable antelope, zebra, and cape buffalo all with a bow and arrow.

He took an elephant with a bow and arrow.

He could kill a rhino with a bow and arrow.

Yeah, their skin alone should break that shit.

I don't even know.

I don't even know how you would do that.

That's a lot of both.

Or why you'd want to, to be honest with you.

I don't know.

But people are crazy.

And back then,

there wasn't an animal rights movement, really.

You almost got to blot out the sun with the arrows to take down a fucking elephant, right?

No, it has to be like a whole volley of them

from the hills.

Yeah.

Jesus.

Like whatever happened to Custer has to happen there, you know?

Yeah,

now the Pottstown police chief says that Robert here has had some mental health problems,

especially since his brother died.

He said he's been having a hard time.

People said that Robert couldn't sleep, he couldn't eat.

He kept saying that he should have protected David.

He said he knew something was coming.

He should have protected him.

He said he should have seen it coming.

Everything.

He said he blamed himself for not intervening in all of this that happened.

It's all his fault.

So what he did was,

one Monday afternoon, he went to one of the properties that David owned, Swineheart Building.

I guess he had been, Robert had been admitted to the Philadelphia Veterans Hospital with his mother's assistance about the time that David was murdered, a little bit afterwards.

He was home on his first furlough and was supposed to return to the hospital Monday evening.

So, instead, Monday afternoon, his mom dropped him off at the Swineheart building in the mid-afternoon because he wanted to look for some of his personal belongings that he had stored there.

He never returned, so she sought help to find him.

They found him in a storage closet with a self-inflicted rifle wound, blew his brains out.

Oh, my God.

In his brother's storage closet.

Yep.

That was one of the things he had in there was a rifle, one of his hunting rifles, and he turned it on himself.

And he left a suicide note that says, simply, quote, can't live with the guilt.

Oh,

Jesus.

It feels terrible he didn't protect him.

Yep.

And it's his younger younger brother.

It's not even his older brother.

So that's crazy.

It's around this time that Thomas, the nephew, nephew Thomas, we'll call him, receives a target letter, which target letter summons him before the grand jury and advises him of his right to counsel.

He appears before an investigating grand jury represented by counsel.

So this is basically an inquiry.

When they can't figure out what's going on, they'll do a grand jury inquiry because

you're under oath in front of the grand jury.

So that's what it is.

If you're in an interrogation room, you're not under oath.

You can lie all you want.

It's not illegal.

That's fine.

But when they get you on the stand in the grand jury, now it's illegal to lie to them.

You hurt the cop's feelings.

That's another wire thing.

You lie to us, you hurt our feelings.

You lie to them, it's perjury.

It's one of those things.

So he appears before that.

Nothing comes of this grand jury inquest.

By the summer, the investigation is going absolutely nowhere.

Nowhere.

They're stuck.

Stalled out, stuck in the quicksand, man,

spinning wheels.

Patricia had stopped talking to cops.

They had tried to talk to her a bunch of times.

She had taken a polygraph test, and then she lawyered up, and that was it.

She got a guy named Frank DeSimone, who is one of Pennsylvania's best criminal defense attorneys, and he told her, you don't say shit.

And she said, I don't say shit.

You know, Thomas has an alibi.

His brother has an alibi.

The wife fuckers, they have bar receipts and witnesses who'd seen them around town that night.

Though nobody could, because everybody was out drinking, nobody could pin down exactly what times they saw them.

But they were like, yeah, I definitely saw them that night around the area.

They have wiretap recordings that David made, but

they're inadmissible.

You can't bring that into court.

So you can't arrest anybody based on that because you can't use that in court.

So that's bad.

They never found any kind of murder weapon, a knife or a bat.

So they really have nothing nothing at this point nothing absolutely ugats to go on there's a detective who says he knew patricia was involved in his heart he says i knew i thought she was involved he said his gut his 30 years of police work told him that this is a family thing this is not an outside deal

all the the stabbings all that it's too personal it's not business

but he said i can't fucking prove anything i have no proof whatsoever case goes cold yeah case is totally cold here we got Nothing.

We got nothing and nowhere to go and nothing to build on.

So Patricia collects the $523,000 insurance payout.

Sure.

She kept the house.

Sure.

Kept the cars.

Who else is going to drive in?

That's it.

Kept, you know, she's a grieving widow going around, you know, just doing all of that, dressed in black for a while, the whole deal.

Thomas, nephew Thomas, still came around being the helpful nephew.

Let me help you fix the deck.

No, let me help you change that light bulb.

Let me help you with that pussy.

There's a lot of help that needs going on around there.

Yeah.

So,

let me help you with those underwear.

They're up too high.

Let's take them down.

Let me help you off with those panties.

Let me help you off with those panties.

Come here.

So sometimes he'd stay late.

Sometimes he'd stay over.

Yeah.

Sleep over.

The neighbors would be whispering, but, you know.

They all felt bad because she's a widow and

they didn't want to say anything bad, like inappropriate about her.

So they were like, well, maybe he's just helping her out, this young guy.

Maybe he's just a real nice guy and really loved his uncle.

Then in November of 1983, Thomas's brother, Jeffrey, David's other nephew, he's the older brother too.

Thomas is younger than Jeffrey.

Sure.

He's a mess, by the way.

He

has nothing going for himself.

He's 25 years old, going absolutely nowhere.

He's working like odd jobs and

doesn't have even a regular job.

He gets in like bar fights all the time.

He's got a criminal record for a bunch of petty thefts and shit like that.

He's just trash.

Jeffrey's trash.

And

for some reason, they decide to bring Jeffrey in and sit him down in an interrogation room.

This is almost two years after the murder.

What the hell?

They decide, I think he's the weak link, which let's talk about him.

Let's talk to him.

Let's talk to him.

They're questioning him one hour, two hours, three hours.

Now, they're questioning him about an unrelated burglary charge.

That's why he's in the office.

But they're questioning, they didn't want to bring him in to talk to him about the burglary.

They were like, that's an excuse to bring him in.

We want to talk to him about David Swinehart.

So the detective here, he said,

they're talking about this burglary.

They're going through all this.

And then he says out of nowhere, quote, Jeffrey, we know about David Swinehart.

We know you were involved, but we also know you weren't the mastermind.

You help us and we'll help you.

Threw an accusation in there.

Not even an accusation.

We know.

Not yet.

It was, listen, we know you're involved, but we know you're not the mastermind, so we're not looking to really crucify you.

You help us and we'll keep you out of trouble, basically.

We've got some info.

Leave you guessing what info we have.

It took about Jeffrey looked at them for about two seconds and then started singing like a fucking bird.

Wow.

Singing his ass off.

He's got a lot to say about the whole thing, and we'll get into what he said.

He said his brother Thomas was involved, involved, and it was him and Thomas, and there's these two other guys, and there's all this big thing.

And they said, Okay, you talking to us, telling us means absolutely nothing.

Do you have a murder weapon?

No, okay, do you have this?

Do you have that?

Okay, you have anything with your brother's fingerprints on it?

No, okay.

So, what you're telling us now is useless.

You might as well be saying it out of your asshole like Ace Ventura.

It doesn't matter.

So, they said, You're going to wear a wire.

That's what you're going to do.

Okay.

You're going to go undercover.

So, nephew Jeffrey says, Okay, I'll wear a wire.

I'll do it.

Yep.

So that's what he's going to do, to record conversations between him and his brother.

That's what this is.

They want his brother to say something incriminating.

So for the next four months, what?

Every time he sees his brother, he's got a wire.

It's recording.

Oh, it's recording.

Boy, four months.

Everything.

Family gatherings.

Thanksgiving dinner, meeting up at the bar, just total asshole.

He's doing it disgusting.

So the state has to follow protocols here.

They had to get

the district attorney approval, written consent from Jeffrey, a limited scope, only conversations between the brothers.

Right.

Nothing else.

And no recordings in Thomas's home unless they get a warrant.

Okay.

Which is weird because it doesn't matter it's his voice you're getting.

It's a strange.

That's a strange.

That's just to make sure.

That's one of those just so it doesn't get thrown out.

We'll make sure to get a warrant for a second.

Make sure there's nothing environmental that happens in there that gets it tossed.

Something.

Well, also, if they would say somehow like he had a reasonable protection expectation of privacy in his own home.

Which, I mean, you do for search and seizure, but a wiretap's a different thing.

It's a gray area that they figured, let's make it not so gray.

So they end up getting some interesting shit on here.

This is from November 83 to March 84.

Here is one from the tavern that they're hanging out at, the bar.

Jeffrey says, and this is so funny, whenever there's someone like on a wire trying to bring up a past crime, it's never natural.

It's never casual as fuck.

They're always like, hey, so remember that time we did this knockoff

when we knocked off that casino?

First line, Jeffrey says, you ever think about that night?

Jeffrey.

Jeffrey, you idiot.

Thomas says, what night?

Why are you wearing a wire?

Yeah,

get up.

I'm patting you down right now.

You're throwing the trash, you son of a bitch.

Jesus Christ, these guys aren't Italian.

I'll tell you that much right now.

You ever think about that night?

Why are you snitching, motherfucker?

Hey, who are you fucking talking to?

Is there a cop in here?

Hey, fuck you.

And start tearing his shirt off.

Where is it?

Where's the wire?

So, yeah, what night is Thomas's response?

Because this is two and a half fucking years later, two years later.

Yeah.

So

what night?

Last week?

What are we talking about?

Jeffrey says, you know what night.

Oh, Jesus.

Thomas says, we don't talk about that.

Yeah.

Rather than saying, I don't know what you're talking about.

He says, we don't talk about that.

Then, rather than Jeffrey, you know,

backing down a little bit, maybe trying another angle, Jeffrey says, Patricia's still paying you?

Oh.

Thomas's response, shut up.

Shut the fuck up.

Shut up.

Don't talk.

There could be anybody listening.

Why do you keep making me say things that are incriminating?

Why is that?

So that's December 83, January 84, in Jeffrey's car.

Jeffrey says the cops came around again.

Oh.

Thomas says, about what?

Jeffrey says, Uncle David.

Oh.

It's even worse, they call him Uncle David.

Did they solve it yet?

Well, Thomas says, they got nothing.

Oh.

Jeffrey says, you sure?

And Thomas said, they'd have moved by now if they did.

Yeah, it's almost three years.

Why are you talking about it?

Yeah, stop talking about it.

That's the problem, though.

You can't ever be comfortable with getting away with murder.

Yeah.

Again, go back to the wire.

As Bunk says, murder, stay murder.

Stay murder.

And then always keeps coming back.

It'll keep coming back.

Then February 1984, outside of Patricia's house, they're talking.

Jeffrey says, she looks good for a widow.

Oh, boy.

To which Thomas says, watch your mouth.

Like, I'm fucking her.

You shut up.

Jeffrey says, I'm just saying 523 grand buys a lot of happiness.

And Thomas says, quote, you got your cut.

Oh.

Like, don't complain.

You got your cut.

And Jeffrey says, not enough.

And Thomas says, quote, you want to end up like Uncle David?

Oh.

Now, none of these are, I murdered him and it was wonderful, but it's all,

we know where the fuck to look now.

There is a lot of smoke, there's a big fire in there somewhere.

You know what I mean?

So then they said,

went on where

Thomas says, the only thing you have to worry about is what I gave you.

That's if you're sure that's taken care of.

You burnt that, right?

That's what he says.

Well, Jeffrey says, the with the clothes in it.

And his brother says, Thomas says, yeah.

And

Jeffrey says, with the blood, the pants in it, and the rope, everything's gone.

Yeah.

Okay.

Thomas said, well, no,

and begins saying something, but then he's interrupted.

And Jeffrey says, the only thing that's still not gone is the money.

I still have that buried.

What should I do with that?

And Thomas says, oh, spend it.

Get rid of it.

Don't hold on to it.

Fucking spend it.

Yeah, they're not looking for serial numbers on it.

What are you talking about, you idiot?

Who would

why would you bury that?

That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard in my life.

When it's buried, it becomes useless eventually.

You got to put that stuff into the system.

Also, yeah, also, it looks really suspicious that you buried a bunch of cash out in the yard.

That looks suspicious to me.

Anything buried looks suspicious.

Less than it's a body in a fucking park.

Or the family dog.

Yeah, right.

That's it.

It had to be put down.

Otherwise, it's suspicious as shit.

Yes.

So that is late 83, early 84.

Nothing comes of this, though.

They get all these recordings, but it's nothing that's enough to really have anything to take him to court with.

There's enough to arrest him.

You know, he's involved, but definitely not enough to convict him with this.

That's not going to convict him.

So then 1985 comes around.

All right.

Holy shit.

Terry Lee Maut, M-A-U-T-E,

Terry with a Y.

He's born in 1956.

He's a small-time local shitheel criminal, just

a dirtbag check forger, thief, petty theft kind of guy.

Just that's the type of guy he is for years in this area.

Now,

an inmate from a county jail, the York County Jail, approaches the police and says, there's this guy named Terry Mout or Mott

that

told me some crazy shit that you guys might want to talk to him about.

Okay.

So you should probably talk to Terry Mount.

Now, Terry Mount, they talk to him and he goes, I know what you're speaking of, but I can't tell you anything really.

I don't really know anything, but I know somebody who does.

Yeah.

And that is you need to talk to Neanderthal Man.

That's who you got to talk to.

Neanderthal Man.

Neanderthal Man is a guy's nickname.

Neanderthal Man.

All right.

Captain Caveman.

That is literally this man's nickname.

He said you need to talk to Arthur Hall, better known as Neanderthal Man.

That's what we all call him.

He's a big, giant, 300-pound kind of a dirtbag bouncer at this bar they all hang out at.

He's born in 1957.

He's just in and out of county jail.

One of these guys.

Sure.

Dirtbag, armed robbery.

He's been related to or arrested for.

thefts, robberies, drugs, you name it, all that bullshit here.

So May 10th, 1985, they decide we're going to talk to old Neanderthal and see what he has to say.

Okay.

So they do.

They've heard from this Terry Mount that this is the guy to talk to.

So they get him in there.

This is giant guy.

Right.

Like, whoa, what the fuck?

And

he's there.

So they tell him, listen,

cooperation's going to go a long way with you.

They are.

They said, without it, they said, you could be looking at the electric chair.

Oh.

Oh, yeah.

You could be taken away from your family, put in the electric chair.

He said, these things could happen.

Sure.

These things could happen.

So at this point, he starts, he admitted he's a drug dealer and all this type of stuff.

Like, we don't care about that.

Doesn't matter.

You can drill all the drugs you want.

Don't give a shit.

They said, you've lied.

You've repeatedly lied.

You've denied any involvement in all of this.

It's at this point with the electric chair and all this pressure,

Neanderthal man breaks down and gets emotional, according to the cops.

And he says, Hall tells them it's time to come clean.

He said, it's just it's time to come clean.

He said, I got to do it.

And he said, I got information about a murder, the Swineheart murder.

And they go, we fucking know that.

Let's hear it, buddy.

What do we do here?

What the fuck happened?

So he said it was November of 81, a couple months before the murders.

He said Thomas was sitting, nephew Thomas, sorry, sat nursing a beer listening to his older brother Jeffrey complain that he was broke.

Jeffrey had very little going on for himself, and basically their uncle David had all these millions of dollars, and they had nothing.

So they were talking about that.

At one point, Thomas tells his brother, Patricia needs help.

And Jeffrey said, what kind of help?

Thomas said, the kind of help that pays money.

Oh.

So Jeffrey said, well, I'm always interested in that.

Yeah.

So at that point, I guess both the brothers, the DeBlaise brothers and Terry Mount, all approach Arthur Hall here, Neanderthal man.

Yeah.

They approach him, and he's working at the bar as a bouncer, and they asked him, will you help us in a robbery?

And this is right up Neanderthal's alley.

So he says, shit, yeah, I'll help with a robbery.

So he said the four of us made a plan to go to the home that Patricia and David lived at.

He said, quote, we met at the High Street Tavern around 8.30 p.m.

on January 15th.

He said, the DeBlais brothers, me, Terry Maut.

Thomas got a phone call, I'm guessing from Patricia.

He said it was time.

We drove to the house in Thomas's green pickup, parked down the street, walked up to the property.

Jeffrey had a baseball bat.

Thomas had a knife.

You see where this is going?

He said, Jeffrey jumped out of the shadows with his baseball bat and started wailing on him.

Oh, Jesus.

He said the first blow caught David in the back of the head, dropped him down to his knees, nailed him.

He said,

up to going into it,

Hall said he thought it was a robbery the whole time.

He said that Jeffrey, on the way over there, had told him, if he gives me a hard time,

you know,

I'll fucking kill him if he gives me a hard time.

Thomas had replied, that would eliminate all of our problems, all of us and mine and hers.

Yeah, yeah.

So Hall was like, I don't like the way that sounds, he said.

So he said, they, you know, he said it was the brothers who committed the murder.

They hid in the bushes near the garage until he came out.

They jumped out.

Jeffrey hit him in the head with a bat.

He screamed and fell down in the driveway, and Jeffrey kept hitting him in the head with a bat.

He said this while Thomas,

then Thomas took the bat and started hitting him while Jeffrey started stabbing him.

Sure.

Okay.

So there's blood everywhere, obviously.

Thomas is hitting him.

Altogether, seven blows to the skull, but he's still alive.

That's when Jeffrey has a 10-inch hunting knife

and stabs David in the back a few times.

And wherever he could, he's just stabbing all around.

And there's a coat on and all that kind of thing, too.

Arthur Lee also also said then Terry kicked him because Terry Mount is there too and said make sure the son of a bitch is dead oh boy blood pooled in the snow he's like there's you know steam rising from knife wounds it's creepy shit

now he said

he just Arthur said when Jeffrey hit him from behind just destroyed his skull Thomas jumped in took the bat kept swinging then Jeffrey started stabbing it was it was butchery yeah

he said then they searched his pockets,

took his wallet, made it look like a robbery, but left an expensive watch and also more cash on him that they didn't find.

So then, after rifling his pockets, they said, make sure he's dead.

And Hall said then they loaded him into the Cadillac.

And that he and Jeffrey drove away to dump the car and the body.

So it was Hall and Jeffrey driving in the Cadillac with

David in the back seat there.

So they said Terry Mount and Thomas left in the truck.

Obviously, that's parked down the street.

He said,

Hall said, I drove the Cadillac to the alley with Jeffrey.

He kept stabbing him during the drive, like he couldn't stop.

He said that he reached into the back seat and started stabbing him again, saying, you didn't like our family anyway.

Okay.

So they left him in the back seat of the Cadillac.

Jeffrey kept stabbing his body, leaving more blood evidence all over the car.

They left it in an alley behind one of his own apartment complexes in Pottstown, and there was that.

Now, then they scattered.

Thomas went back to hang out with Patricia.

And Jeremy went back to the bar and to establish an alibi.

And Mount and Arthur Hall just went about their business as well.

Sure.

So May 11th, the very next day, Thomas and Jeff are arrested, and Terry, too, they end up finding as well.

Jeff is already in custody.

They bring in Thomas now.

They had apparently a lot of luck.

Just before 3 a.m., on their way to look for Thomas, they were literally going to like check out that bar or check out this place he hangs out at.

I heard he hangs out with a chick over here.

They stopped at 7-Eleven to get cigarettes.

The cops did.

Sure.

And as they were walking into the store, here's Thomas walking away from the counter.

And they were like, oh, all right, there you are.

You're under arrest, asshole.

Perfect.

We were just going out looking for you.

Right.

So he's charged with, he just said, I wanted my lawyer.

That's all he would say.

He's charged with homicide, robbery, theft, voluntary and involuntary manslaughter, aggravated and simple assault, recklessly endangering another person, possession of an instrument of crime, and criminal conspiracy.

That's a lot.

Terry was picked up.

Jeff was already in custody because he was state's evidence at this point.

Terry was picked up at a girlfriend's house in Lower Potsgrove Township.

And Arthur was already in jail on that robbery thing, that beef burglary or whatever it was.

He's transferred from a county jail into protective custody now because he told.

So

the press is like, is that it?

You arrested four fucking people, and we didn't even.

Who are these people?

What's going on?

What's going on?

Are there more?

And the police said that there is a fifth suspect, possibly a woman.

Possibly a woman.

They said no motive that we can make public.

They just said this was a long, arduous, difficult investigation.

It took more than three years, and there were as many blind alleys in this thing as you could possibly conceive of.

Why do they have to do that?

He was found dead in a fucking blind alley.

Why do they do that?

Too many holes in the whole thing.

Too many gaping wounds in this thing.

I don't like it.

They can't help it.

It's, dude, it's every show we do.

We've been beating up this one for a while now uh there's a lot of holes in it a lot of holes

why do they always say something something that relates i swear to god it's just you can't help it's got to be a mental thing somewhere yeah they have to have to bring it up it's like why you thought flipper played for the dolphins yeah you know what i mean it's the same thing flipper anderson played it's just your brain's making looking for connections yeah to make things make sense a map yeah yeah it's too

it's too much of a question your brain's always looking to put shit shit together to solve puzzles, whatever it is, and they'll make a puzzle out of nothing.

Now, Patricia, the brothers are going to be awaiting trial in the Montgomery County prison or jail.

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Patricia attended the hearing for Jeffrey and Thomas, you know, playing the widow, saying, you know, these, my husband, these poor, these guys did it.

When reporters asked for comment, she dabbed her eyes with a handkerchief in the chip and said, quote, I just want justice for David.

Who doesn't?

She just, we all want justice for David at this point.

June 1985, the wiretap wars start.

Here we go.

This is going to last over a decade.

The wars over the wiretap.

What?

Really?

Oh, yeah.

His attorney, Samuel Stretton, filed to suppress all evidence from the body wire recordings from Jeffrey and the illegal wiretapping of Patricia's phone

from David.

Said none of this is about it.

The wiretap suppression, the Pennsylvania law on the phone one was clear.

That's suppressed.

Yeah, you can.

Yeah, even though he was dead, his illegal recordings couldn't be used.

But the body wire was different, and this began a huge fucking thing that went all the way to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.

Wow.

In June of 85, Judge Horace Davenport

presided over the defense, arguing that Thomas's Sixth Amendment right to counsel had been violated.

He asked for a lawyer during his initial questioning.

Any evidence gathered after that request should be inadmissible.

The prosecution countered that Thomas hadn't been arrested or charged when the body wire recordings were made.

No formal proceedings had begun.

The

Sixth Amendment didn't apply to him at that point.

The judge suppressed everything,

both of them.

Wiretaps.

Yes, both of them.

Jeffrey's

shit.

Yeah.

Not allowed to do it.

It's at that point that they offer Thomas a deal because it's going to be hard to convict him without the wiretap shit.

Because it looks like co-conspirators blaming each other at that point.

Sure.

So they offer him five to ten years

as a plea, huh?

As a plea, five to ten years, and you testify against Patricia.

Okay.

And he said, nope, fuck you.

I'm good.

Really?

Yeah.

Five to ten with a murder wrap hanging over you.

Okay.

Okay.

So September 1985, they take Jeffrey.

Despite his cooperate, this is the wildest thing.

Out of everybody in this, Jeffrey has it the worst out of all these people.

Okay.

He not only was the only one to admit to anything for a long time, he actually cooperated with the police, wore a wire for four fucking months around everywhere, did all of this, and

they're going for the death penalty on him.

Oh, my God.

I'm like, what will happen?

Thank you for the info.

We're about to murk you.

That is wild.

Can you imagine?

That's fascinating.

We've heard of it once before, but it was like something really bad.

Yeah, really, really bad.

This guy's like kind of your second string murderer in this case.

It's weird.

So they have Arthur Hall's testimony.

They have Jeffree's own confession in this, which they told him they were going to help him out.

Right.

This is not helping him out at all.

End this faster.

And they allow the body wire recordings in Jeffree's trial.

So he can.

He's the guy who made them to, he only admitted his guilt on these tapes to try to get Thomas to talk, and instead they're using this against him, which is really fucked up.

Really fucked up.

Jeffrey's defense attorney tries to argue diminished capacity.

No one would be this stupid, Your Honor.

Nobody.

He's got to be.

It's impossible.

It's got to be a medical thing.

It's like he's medically stupid.

It has to be.

He said Jeffrey was manipulated not only by his younger brother, but his aunt as well, who he trusted.

Okay.

Arthur Hall testifies,

Neanderthal man.

Yeah.

He said he and the three defendants met at

future defendants met at the bar.

He said that, you know, received the phone call.

They jumped into the car.

They go over to the house.

He said, I heard some footsteps.

I seen Mr.

Swineheart coming.

I seen it.

This is in court.

Jeff ran up behind him and hit him in the head with a bat.

He screamed and went down.

Jeff hit him a couple more times with the bat.

Then Tommy hit him a couple times with the bat.

Terry kicked him a few times.

Jeff stabbed him a few times.

Then Jeff started going through his pockets, and I saw him put something in his pocket.

He's going to wire the dead man now.

Hall said that he and the brothers put them in the back seat of the Cadillac, and then we know that

he and Jeffrey drove it, and Terry and Thomas, all the T-names, went in the other car.

So

Tom, Jeffrey really is, as his own words are being used against him, hardcore here.

When they say can and will be used against you, they fucking mean it.

Yeah.

He is found guilty of first-degree murder.

Oh, boy.

That is wild.

Holy shit.

And sentencing comes around here.

You, sir, may fuck off life without parole.

Okay, well, I mean, didn't get the death penalty.

But they got you.

They got you good.

Yeah.

Life without parole.

That is

in trouble.

Yeah.

That is when another guy steps forward here, a cellmate of Terry Mouts comes forward.

And he said, so this is the first initial, the way Terry Mout got into the story was a cellmate talking to the cops.

Now we got another cellmate, a different one.

He said an inmate came forward and asked police if they were interested in a story that he'd been told by a cellmate.

Okay.

And they said, sure, why not?

So he said, well,

after he tells the story, they say that his story offered significant bits and pieces that indicated it was good stuff.

Good stuff.

Good stuff.

Like it's a bag of Coke.

I licked a little, put it on my gums.

It's good stuff.

It's good stuff.

It's fine.

He said, this was the first indication that

there was a possibility we could straighten the circle out and get going.

And in fact, that's what happened because in October 1985, based on this new information, they're going to take Terry to trial as well.

Terry.

And we have Arthur saying he kicked him and said, make sure he's dead.

And he was the guy.

He was in it.

You know what I mean?

According to Arthur.

So this cellmate's name is John Gladfelter.

I'm glad you felt it too, John.

Jesus.

He testifies that Terry told him that Patricia had paid Terry to kill her husband.

He got paid money by Patricia.

It was only about two grand, apparently, he got $1,500 to $2,000.

Jesus.

Gladfelter,

yeah, he said that Mott described the murder to him while they were in county prison in March.

Gladfelter, who's serving a two and a half to five-year sentence for statutory rape and retail theft, I hope not at the same time.

Honestly.

That'd be weird.

Said that the conversation with Maut arose while the two were discussing a book, The Shoemaker, about convicted Philadelphia murderer Joseph Callinger.

That guy is fucking nuts, by the way.

Really?

If you've never heard of him, Callinger?

Look with a K.

K-A-L-L-I-N-G-R.

We'll do a G-E-R.

We'll do a bonus episode on him.

He is absolutely unhinged, man.

Anyway,

he said, Gladfelter said, I told him I couldn't believe how brutal these murders were.

Mount said he could tell me about a murder.

Okay.

And then he said that Mount said this guy lived in a big house and that they were paid a lot of money to kill this guy.

He said that after they killed Swineheart, he had a lot of money for dope for a while.

Oh, yeah.

So he got something out of that.

He got a couple of grand out of it.

Yeah, Mount did.

When asked by the prosecutor if Mout told him who paid him for the killing, he said, quote, Yeah, he said it was Swinehart's wife.

Oh,

yeah.

That's not good.

Arthur Hall also testifies.

His attorney, though, Mout's attorney attacks Arthur Hall's telling of this as

Neanderthal man's telling as totally incredible.

Totally incredible.

He said, and he had said on the stand, he kicked David's corpse to, quote, make sure the son of a bitch is dead, as he said.

Anyway,

Mout also has an alibi witness, too, though.

Donna Fitzgerald, a bartender at the bar they were all hanging out at, she testified she served Terry drinks until 2 a.m.

on January 15th.

And her log book confirms it, and time-stamped receipts back it up.

The prosecution argued that Terry had plenty of time to participate in the murder at 8:30 and return to the bar.

Wow.

Plenty of time.

There's no, in that window, there's no receipts.

So he had an hour to do this.

You're out of your mind.

Terry gets up and testifies.

He takes the witness stand, and he says that he told Gladfelter, Gladfelter, the cellmate, everything I knew about the case, but that I never confessed to him that I was involved in it.

I just told him all I knew about it.

He said it's ridiculous.

He said that Jeffrey had admitted to him that he, his brother, and Neanderthal man had killed Swineheart.

Oh.

Terry said the conversation took place while they were all taking heroin in Terry's pickup truck behind the Potstown YMCA.

That's all class right there.

Let's go in my pickup behind the YMCA and shoot some dope.

Yeah, that's great.

Talk about murder.

Talk about some murder.

So during the closing arguments, the defense rips Neanderthal's testimony.

They said that Hall had arranged a, quote, sweetheart of a deal with the district attorney's office in exchange for his testimony against his co-defendants.

The lawyer also said that because of his cooperation, Hall would not have to plead guilty to murder and that he would be permitted to serve any sentence he receives in a county prison, which is safer than a state facility.

Okay.

The prosecution, by the way, the prosecutor's name is Jay McNulty, which is hilarious.

Really?

McNulty is on the case.

Jay McNulty, too, Jimmy McNulty.

Wow.

So he said that he concedes that in his closing statement that his office had made the deal with Arthur Hall, yes, but argued that his testimony was corroborated by physical evidence taken by state police investigators and Jeffrey's fucking story and wiretapping.

He said, our theory is that this was not a conspiracy to rob, but a conspiracy to kill David Swinehart for reasons I hope that are very apparent to you.

Verdict comes in.

Here we go.

12-member jury deliberates for 14 hours over two days.

That seems like more than you would need, doesn't it?

Yeah, the jury foreman announces, now he, by the way, is up for first-degree first-degree murder, second-degree murder, and third-degree murder, voluntary, involuntary manslaughter, robbery, conspiracy.

He is found not guilty of everything.

Really?

Everything.

I don't even know what that means.

How do you do that?

I don't know.

I don't know.

There's evidence.

All right.

All right.

Evidence, two to multiple people testifying against you.

That's wild.

I don't know.

As the jury foreman, Norman Marlin, Jr., announced not guilty to the charge of first-degree murder, Mout, a short, wiry man with neatly trimmed dark hair and mustache, closed his eyes and broke into a slight smile.

After the verdicts, all the charges were announced.

Mount, after the verdicts, two, all the charges, Mount turned to his attorney, Richard Winters, next to him at the defense table, shook his hand, and told him, because he's

appointed, but he said,

you'd be worth it to pay you for that.

I would have paid for that.

I wish I could pay you.

If I had it, the courtroom erupts into chaos when he's found not guilty.

Patricia faints.

Really?

She faints in the courtroom.

The Swinehart family is very upset.

After the jurors were dismissed, the judge and Sweinhart's mother, Viola, here, Patricia's mother, I'm sorry, David's mother, Viola, walked into the corridor outside the courtroom where she paused for a moment and then said, What kind of jury is this?

What kind of bullshit is this?

What kind of bullshit?

She said, I'm just completely surprised.

I don't know what else to say.

She was there the entire trial and she said it was crazy.

Mout's lawyer said, I think that this jury came to the conclusion that Gladfelter wasn't lying, but that he had just mistaken what Mout may have told him in jail.

Okay.

Mount acknowledged that, yes, I did.

I just said I didn't do it.

I told him what I knew.

Problem is, before he can even leave the court, he's arrested again immediately on unrelated forgery and theft charges.

He's always got something hanging on.

He's going to jail today, no matter what.

Either way, you're not going home.

He's going to end up being in jail for the next 20 years in prison he'll spend based on this shit, not even based on murder.

Wow.

Got away with that, but you're getting 20 anyway.

1986, Thomas has his wiretap appeals.

The Commonwealth appeals the decision to suppress all the wiretaps to the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court,

they affirm

that David's recordings of Patricia over the phone are still out, but now they reverse the wire, Jeffreywear and the wire, and now those recordings can be used against Thomas.

Okay.

Okay.

So here we go.

1987, Thomas's cellmate comes forward.

Stop talking to people in jail.

Just stop it.

I get that it's late and you're bored and you feel like no one can hear you because you're literally in the belly of the beast.

I understand it.

Shut the fuck up.

Shut the fuck up.

This is John Hall.

No relation to Neanderthal man, by the way.

Different Hall.

Or Oates.

Or Oates.

None of them.

Daryl, not related to Daryl, Arthur, any of them.

I wonder if Arthur Hall was Daryl's father, maybe.

Do we know that?

That's not true for sure.

I got to find out if any of these people are related to Darrell.

This girl's name was Sarah Skye, too.

Sarah Sky, S-K-Y.

Was it Hall and Oats?

Sarah Smile.

Yeah, Yeah, did they?

That's funny.

Smile for me.

Sarah.

That's fun.

I'm telling you, there's a, there's a, it's all involved.

It's all involved.

So March of 87, police receive a statement from John Hall, who'd been incarcerated with Thomas in the Northampton County Prison while he's awaiting whatever the fuck they're going to do.

Whatever they're going to get.

Yeah.

Hall said that Thomas told him, quote, he wanted to kill David Swinehart so that he could be with Patricia Swinehart and have David Sweinhart's money.

Oh, that's all of it.

1988, in June, Thomas's trial is finally set to start.

Here we go.

Finally.

That's when his lawyer, this Samuel Stretton, this guy is a crafty son of a bitch.

He puts a second motion in to suppress based on Commonwealth versus Schaefer, which was a new case about privacy rights and consensual recordings that kind of threw everything up into the air.

Okay.

The judge was swayed by the law because it's an evolving law and didn't want to get it all fucked up on appeal, so he suppressed the body wire evidence again.

Oh, boy.

So now they're not going to bring him to trial.

They've got to get this figured out first.

So they appeal it.

There's another reversal.

Now it's allowed in.

So then they take it to the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, and the Pennsylvania Supreme Court dismissed the appeal as improvidently granted, and the body wire recordings would be admissible.

Okay.

Now,

he refiles in April of 89 to the second petition to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.

Then they just sit on the case for like two years.

Why?

Nobody can do anything while they sit on the case.

We're talking more than that.

Like, oh, Christ, almost four years they sit on this fucking case.

Yeah.

Okay.

1990, Patricia is, she's going about her life.

Thomas is sitting in the jail still.

He's on no bail for the last five years.

So sitting there.

Now, Patricia, she keeps the house.

She kept the insurance money, her kids, cars, all that.

She's been financially secure.

She's seen around Potstown shopping, going to PTA meetings, living a normal life, doing her thing.

By the way, she's not fucking him anymore.

Thomas and Patricia are, they've been done together.

Yeah.

Well, he can't help anymore.

The problem is she spent all this fucking money already.

She spent the legal fees for her own protection.

She had to hire a lawyer, private school for the kids.

She's had to maintain the house and all that kind of shit.

By 1990, she's pretty much broke.

Uh-oh.

She's pretty much dead fucking broke.

Then May of 1991 happens.

Yeah.

Okay.

Terry Mout, by the way,

testified at his own trial saying he didn't do anything and all that kind of thing.

Well,

in May of 1991, the state statute of limitations on perjury expires for him.

Okay.

On his testimony.

So now he comes forward with the truth.

So Terry, he's got a story to tell here.

Yeah, he said he was recruited by the brothers.

He said Jeffrey told him

initially about this in December of 81.

He said, you know, you want to help us kill this David Swinehart.

So it was from the beginning of murder.

He said he met with Thomas and Jeffrey and Patricia Swinehart

at Thomas's house in Pottstown.

Okay.

He said that Thomas offered him $1,500 up front and another $1,500 after the killing was completed.

Why do they think three grand is enough?

That's not enough at all.

Wow.

So he said that they all agreed to make it look like a robbery.

That's what they did.

Okay.

So that's now

this, this is the first person who's put Patricia into the mix.

Yeah.

No one else has put her in.

And he said, I met with her where we all discussed the murder and the payments and everything else.

Okay.

November 13th, 1991.

Thomas still has not been tried, by the way.

Really?

No, it's crazy.

Thomas is now freed on bail by a federal judge.

What is going on?

A federal judge approved the recommendation that he be freed on bail after spending six years in prison prison awaiting trial.

They said, that's a little too long.

Try him, get shit or get off the pot, basically.

You can't just hold a guy indefinitely until you decide to try him.

That's insane.

They said bail is routinely denied in capital murder cases, but they ruled that the delays in the case were so extreme that he should be released while awaiting trial.

All right.

December of 1992, this same judge, this is the next month, basically.

Oh, I'm sorry, this is a year later.

December 92, that was November 91.

This same same judge recommends the charges be dropped against Thomas

unless he's brought to trial within 120 days.

Okay.

You got four months.

Get it done.

Or whatever.

This recommendation is turned down by U.S.

District Judge Herbert Hutton.

So they said, no, that's okay.

So, yeah.

But the judge said that it's unjustifiable delays that are causing this and said that

basically they ruled that the delay has violated his constitutional right to a speedy trial under the Sixth Amendment.

Wow.

Now, speedy trial has meanings in each state in terms of amounts of time and things like that, but this is beyond the scope of anything that possibly could be considered speedy.

It's been so long.

Or anything else.

So he took

the step of having him released on electronic monitoring

there.

Now

the Pennsylvania Supreme Court denies Thomas's appeal without explanation, and they're going to put him back in jail for a while, and then he's going to get out again.

It's crazy.

April 19th, 1993,

Montgomery County judge throws the Thomas de Blasey case or de Blase case out, saying that his constitutional rights have been violated.

All right.

So the case is thrown out now.

So now he's released from jail.

He gets married, Thomas, to a woman named Faith.

Sure.

Isn't that nice?

July 26th, 1993, Arthur Hall finally, they've kept him without pleading, entering a plea for him or anything so he could testify against all these people, but it's gone on so fucking long, they just have him plead now and get it over with, the deal they made with him.

He pleads guilty to conspiracy to commit robbery, which is

wow.

That is not okay.

He talked about robbery and there's a man that's dead.

Holy shit.

That's like giving Timothy McVay a ticket from the building inspector.

Like, what are we talking about?

Illegal possession of fireworks.

Yeah, what is happening here?

So that is crazy.

Anyway,

they do

his deal here, and his lawyer

says,

I think it should be emphasized that but for Mr.

Hall, this case may never have been prosecuted.

Right.

For anybody, at least at the time it was.

He said, you know,

what the fuck?

It cut him a deal here, cut him a break.

So his sentencing for this is, you, sir, may fuck off 29 to 59 months in prison.

Oh, my God.

Like two years he got.

Holy shit.

Nothing.

Did he at least get his three grand?

I don't think he got any.

Yeah, he probably got it at the time.

Well, yeah, we know Terry did because he said he had a lot of dope money for weeks.

God.

Now, will Patricia be arrested?

She should be.

Well, they're saying that they're still pushing the investigation.

The prosecutors are saying in the newspaper that they're still pushing the investigation of Patricia

Swinehart, saying that calling her an unindicted co-conspirator at this point.

All right.

So they've gone into labeling her into like libelous, you know, units.

They must have something.

That's a real limbo of words there, isn't it?

Yeah, that's saying they did it, but we haven't charged them yet.

Yeah.

Okay, well, why not, motherfucker, charge them or shut up?

So, the prosecutors contend that David was killed to continue this affair.

The prosecutor said, This is district attorney Bruce Caster.

He said, it's fair to say that a criminal investigation is still pending into other persons, including Patricia Swinehart,

who is, yeah, he said, We have uncovered promising leads.

That's all I can say.

All right.

Okay.

July 28th, 1993.

Patricia is finally arrested.

Okay.

Yeah, she's the biggest violent judiciary of this.

It's pretty well slammed dunk, right?

I would say, right?

They arrest her at her home, her different home now in Meyerstown, Pennsylvania, charged with murder, robbery, and conspiracy charges.

She's being held without bail at first.

Then she's going to end up getting half a million dollars bail, but she can't pay it because she's broke.

So she sits in jail.

I'm going to read from a newspaper here.

This is an article about her arrest.

Quote, the woman, a 5'3, 135-pound blonde with dark eyes, to whom, quote, time has not been kind, a law enforcement source said.

Jesus.

Jesus Christ, was living with a wealthy man in a very fancy house when she was arrested.

And we'll get into who that is and everything later because

it even gets crazier if it's even possible.

This fucking case gets crazier.

The prosecutor Caster said that Swineheart was arrested in her bed.

They came in at like six in the morning.

A female police state trooper actually went into the bedroom and took her into custody.

I would think it would be fair to say she was shocked and surprised.

There was great wailing and tears when she was taken into custody.

Great wailing and tears.

Another article says, quote, looking tanned but drawn, Swinehart clutched a tissue in her hand, or in her handcuffed hands, as police led her from the Norristown courthouse.

She said nothing.

A A preliminary hearing is expected in September.

Now, one of her lawyers said, I'm distressed that she's in prison.

Oh, she's charged with murder.

How dare they?

He said she's a devoted, attentive mother who spends her time tending to her grandchildren, gardening, and breeding bull mastiffs.

What are we talking about here?

She's a dog breeder now.

Yeah, come on.

I love bull mastiffs.

They're great dogs.

She's breeding them.

Yeah, I used to have one.

Love them.

So anyway, breeding bull mastiffs.

He said that she's done, had nothing to do with the murder.

He said she fully cooperated with law enforcement investigators more than a decade ago and even willingly underwent an insurance company polygraph test in 82.

Not a police polygraph, the insurance company,

and, quote, passed it with flying colors,

which she must have passed because they gave her the money.

No,

they could have medicated her.

She could have taken a pill beforehand.

Changed that.

So they said the only things that have changed, they said until recently, the insurance angle has never been fully investigated.

The district attorney said that,

you know, more importantly, a man acquitted of the murder is willing to testify that Patricia recruited him and paid him for the murder.

That's crazy.

Think about that.

A court of law, a jury said you didn't do anything, and now you're going to go up there and say you did do anything, and here's what happened.

They missed it.

That's not great.

Right.

I don't have any evidence of this, but yeah.

So David Swinehart's mother, Viola, was weeping and said, I'm just so upset that I don't know what to say.

She thought she had this daughter-in-law they could commiserate for years.

Naturally, this brings everything back to the fore.

I just don't understand what's going on right now.

They also said the prosecutor said all four of the Swinehart children, who are all adults now by this time, one of whom is a lawyer working for a Montgomery County judge now, all opposed bringing charges against their mother.

They all said, even if she did have something to do with it, let's go.

We don't want to know.

Yeah, can you not destroy our family anymore?

So Bailis said at 500 grand, like we said, she's broke.

She can't make it.

She's sitting behind bars.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, Thomas, by the way,

his lawyer, he said that Thomas has no contact with Patricia Swinehart and is currently working in Potts Town doing construction.

Leave my client out of this.

He said during his imprisonment, he became very religious and is, quote, very active in the church.

His lawyer said, I've never seen anyone who can quote the Bible in a manner in which he can.

He's very devout.

He's a person who totally changed his life.

So

leave him alone, is what they're saying.

January 11th, 1994.

The ruling that drops the charges against Thomas is overturned by the state superior court, and the charges are reinstated

against Thomas.

Dude, this is crazy.

January 19th, 1994, they offer Thomas another deal.

Okay.

They say, we're going to put Patty on trial.

You testify against her

and we give you eight to 20 years.

And you've already served like seven years.

So pretty much time served.

Time served.

Testify against your girlfriend, please.

Okay.

He said, no.

I'm not going to do it.

Won't testify, and I don't want the deal.

Go fuck yourselves.

Okay.

Okay.

So he's then jailed for contempt of court after they subpoena him to testify, and he still refuses to testify.

Fuck.

Jailed on contempt of court.

He serves five months, is released from jail, five months on the contempt charge, is released, and then arrested again on murder charges again for this.

He's had the craziest path of anybody we've ever had on this show.

It's unbelievable.

So, Patricia's trial finally going to take place in 1994 or some shit, 1995.

So she is charged with first-degree murder, criminal conspiracy solicitation to commit murder.

Now, the case that they have against her, they don't have the wiretaps.

Right.

Those are inadmissible.

They don't have Thomas testifying against her.

And the problem here is The judge will not allow, there is a $523,000 insurance policy, the divorce, divorce, the affair with Thomas, all that's in play.

Yeah.

She's admitted to that.

The problem is, the judge will not allow into court the fact that

he was about to cut her out of his life insurance.

And those papers were filled out and done on the desk because the judge said they don't have any proof that Patricia knew about that.

And unless they knew she knew about that, they can't use that as a motive, essentially.

Okay.

Even if she didn't know,

somebody knew.

Yeah.

I mean,

does it matter whether or not there was a fucking end date on her getting

the beneficiary?

Does that even matter?

Because she was still the beneficiary either way.

I guess because the prosecution can say they had to kill him right then before they got those papers signed.

And then the defense says, well, you don't have any proof she knew about those papers at all.

And so that's why the judge just says it's all too murky, throw it all out, which is a huge blow to the prosecution.

Sure is, yeah.

It's not great.

but they do have the insurance policy, the divorce, and the affair, which still is not good for Patricia.

Also, that Patricia knew his schedule.

She controlled when he'd leave the house.

She could have him do something or have the kids, you know, hey, can you do this with the kids for a second?

They found blood outside her house.

She explained it away as he cut himself on the garage.

They also said her behavior, her lack of emotion after the death, her relationship with Thomas, all that shit.

Now, she still has the same attorney that she hired in 1982, by the way, Dee Simone.

DeSimone said, where's the evidence?

Where's the proof?

Patricia Swinehart asked anyone to kill her husband.

Phone records, destroyed.

Witnesses, none.

Confession, never happened.

Okay.

He said, the prosecution wants you to convict a widow, a mother of four.

She's a mother.

She's a grandmother that is fucking brought based on gossip and speculation.

They say she was having an affair.

Where's the proof?

Well, they've all admitted the affair.

So that's.

They say she made a phone call.

Where's the recording?

Meeting the phone call to Thomas to tell him to come to the bar because come to the house because he's about to leave.

They say that she had nothing to do with the murder.

Frank D.

Simone said the

case against her is based on testimony from a former defendant in the case, a career criminal, who admits he lied under oath more than once.

He said, you're going to see a hall of shame criminal testifying before you, is what he tells the jury.

He says, Patricia Swinehart is guilty of one thing, bad judgment in marriage.

Okay.

David Swinehart was a serial cheater who abandoned his family for a younger woman.

Patricia survived that betrayal.

Now the state wants to punish her for his death.

That's also a real big motive to kill somebody if you're real pissed at them.

You're fucking some young chick.

And

he's not the young girl didn't kill him yeah no she didn't do it right wow uh now the insurance papers being not and also they they're not allowed to put in uh the the thing that he had heavy debt and high interest rates and all that they wouldn't let allow them to introduce that either they forbade prosecutors from revealing the insurance switch to the jurors saying there's no evidence that she knew of it and the prosecutor castor said the decision to exclude

the imminent change in the insurance was devastating to our case, absolutely devastating.

So, yeah, his appointment was for January 16th, was the day after he disappeared to go take care of it.

And he said, naturally, we think that put a very, very big hole in what we thought was

a reasonably cogent case.

So, yeah, no insurance testimony, just that she collected insurance money.

That's all they get out of that.

They're trying to establish that Swinehart also tried to remove evidence of the murder by treating blood-stained snow on the driveway with rock salt and trying to chip away at it with a shovel.

Oh.

In her 1982 statements to police, Patricia acknowledged salting the driveway and shoveling, quote, isolated portions of it.

Okay.

I have to shovel the driveway all the time.

I never shovel isolated portions of it.

You shovel the driveway, the part that's to it, and you go inside.

How about over here on the grass?

I'm going to shovel a little bit out there.

No, over here.

A little bit over there.

But the areas she admitted shoveling were not where the slaying occurred.

Well, yeah, she didn't say that.

Now, a neighbor testifies.

A former neighbor testifies she saw Patricia shoveling snow in the exact location of the murder.

Oh.

This is Barbara S.

Lindsay, L-E-N-Z-I.

Remember that last name.

It's very important.

Okay.

Former neighbor.

She testified she became close friends with Patricia during the early 1980s.

Her children played sports with the Swineheart children, and Lindsay said that she regarded Swineheart as a very close friend and confidant.

Okay.

In 1986, Lindsay said her own marriage was falling apart, and she revealed to Patricia, you know, just a heart-to-heart with a friend, that she was having an affair with another man because her marriage was falling apart.

Sure.

Swineheart, Lindsay, says that Patricia replied that she had been having an affair with David Swineheart's nephew Thomas while he was still alive.

Lindsay said she mentioned that they would sometimes get together at her house to have a sexual affair.

Oh.

Now, defense attorneys attack this neighbor's

the veracity of her statements.

You'll go, well, she's a neighbor.

What does she care?

What does she have to gain?

Well,

her ex-husband, the one she was cheating on, Barbara Lenzi's ex-husband, Mr.

Lindsay,

and Patricia are now together.

Oh, get out of here.

Yes.

Fucking the Lenzies, they said the Lenzies' ex-husband won primary custody of their children and moved in with Patricia.

So Lenzi said, quote, well, I certainly wouldn't call Patricia my best friend now.

They were like, you're not even friends with her.

You're mad at her for this, aren't you?

Neanderthal man's back.

Here we go.

Here he is.

He testifies that Thomas told him several months after the slaying that he had a thing with Swinehart's wife, Patricia, who was trying to get a divorce.

But on cross-examination, DeSimone kind of lights him up a little bit.

He said, Mr.

Hall, you're a convicted felon, correct?

Which is never a good way to start a conversation.

How do you do?

How do you do?

And he said, yes.

And they said, facing 20 years for armed robbery.

And he said, yes.

And they said, and you made a deal for leniency.

He said, I was offered consideration.

And they said, you'd say anything to reduce your sentence, wouldn't you?

And he said, no, I.

And the attorney jumped in and said, you never saw Patricia Swinehart that night, did you?

Oh.

Arthur Hall said, no, but.

And he said, never heard her voice.

And he said, no.

And the lawyer said, never saw her at any planning meetings.

And he said, no, but Thomas said.

And the lawyer said, hearsay, Your Honor, I'm done with this guy.

Fuck him.

Yeah.

Okay.

So that's not great.

And as direct, he corroborated everything, but that looked bad and cross.

They get Terry Mountain there as well, or Mott or whatever he is.

Sure.

No other witness has ever directly implicated Patty or Patricia.

Nobody said a word about her.

No, except for this guy, and that was after his perjury expired.

But there'd be no reason for him to come forward otherwise.

He was already fucked.

It was weird.

So, yeah, he said that, no, she was at a meeting with us doing it and, you know, getting, planning it all out.

Mott's current lawyer said that prosecutors made it very clear from day one that they were not promising Mr.

Mott anything for his testimony as well, because they went off over that for a while.

They called him a career criminal and drug addict who in 1985 professed innocence and was acquitted by the jury, and he's serving a 20-year sentence on unrelated charges.

He testified that he got $3,000 for his role

and that

promised him a maintenance contract in her husband's extensive real estate holdings.

So, not only would he get $3,000, he'd get like a no-show job from Patty, too.

Now, in court,

Patty's new boyfriend's son,

who apparently

plays football for Ohio State

at this point, Penn State.

I'm sorry, Penn State.

So, he might just be angry because he fucking hung around Sandusky for too long.

Wow.

This guy had an outburst in the courtroom.

This is Carmine Lindsey, who's 18 years old, lunged toward prosecutor Castor

as the prosecutor grilled a defense witness.

Relatives and courtroom deputies grabbed this guy and shoved him from the courtroom as the jury watched all this.

This is fucking crazy.

This was a lawyer's questioning of Swinehart's daughter.

He got about two steps from his seat before friends and family members and courthouse deputies subdued him

and dragged him out.

They rushed him from the courtroom.

Patricia Swinehart's mother yelled, see what you do to the prosecutor.

See what you've done to me and our family?

So the incident left the jurors a little bit concerned.

Defense attorney said, I think the jurors felt apprehensive about the incident.

They wanted some explanation.

What the fuck was that about?

They said they asked the judge to speak individually to the jurors, and they did that, and they came away reassured about the jury's fairness.

They said, frankly, we're surprised some jurors might use this as an excuse to get off the jury, and nobody did.

This is such an interesting story.

Who the fuck wants to walk away from this?

Why would you leave?

I wouldn't leave.

I'd be fascinated.

This was the second outburst of the week.

On Wednesday, one of Patricia's sons grabbed the prosecutor's arm in front of the jury and whispered angrily at him.

Oh.

Mad that he was prosecuting his mom.

You can't do that.

You just can't do any of that.

Then there's other

juror issues here.

They said

they've been sequestered in a hotel since the trial began because it's so much public

spotlight on this.

One of the jurors' homes was damaged by recent flooding, and the other jurors complained that their hotel rooms had been burglarized while they were at court.

This is a mess.

A manager at the hotel said the complaints had been handled internally and said, we weren't sure whether some money was actually taken or it was misplaced the manager said he said only one room was affected so the incident in the courtroom uh quote was the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of anxiety for the jurors

so in closings the prosecutor says lust greed lust and greed ladies and gentlemen two motives for murder yeah this is two and a half hour closing oh boy She goes into the divorce thinking she'll take him to the cleaners, make a ton of money, and be done with that SOB.

Then she decides the only way she's going to get any money is through the life insurance and the plan to commit the murder is made.

And we told you all how it happened.

Now, the defense

in a five-hour closing.

Oh my God.

Five hours of listening to this guy talk.

This is fucking wild.

Okay, this is

a couple different attorneys, but one says, we know that she wasn't involved with Terry Mout.

He is one of the most baseless, immoral persons I've ever seen in court.

Then De Simone said, you have to acquit her.

He said, this is a disgrace.

This prosecution, a disgrace.

Right.

Pounding on the jury box, too, while he's doing it.

He ridiculed the prosecutor's office.

He said, he asked, why would Patricia plot a murder outside her own home on a night when her house was full of people?

It was just her kids.

Wasn't full of, she didn't have a party going on.

Why kill her husband when his estate could have grown considerably had he lived?

He was in debt.

And why did Mout describe her hair as blonde when pictures from 1982 show it seems to have been a dark brown?

This is nonsense.

This is Disneyland.

Where the fuck did Disneyland come from?

They don't have anything to corroborate him.

Nothing, nothing, nothing, he says.

This is all while pounding on the jury box.

He then

tried to discredit Terry Moore, Terry Mout.

He said, no matter what dog and pony show they put on, this case rises and falls on the testimony of Terry Lee Mout.

He says that he's serving time in prison.

He's a liar.

He said, they presented you with this animal to convict this woman.

He's an animal.

Yeah.

For what?

Maybe a headline, maybe a career.

If she's convicted, Mout's getting out of prison.

Count on it.

He then called Mout a predator, a beast, a savage.

A beast.

A beast, predator, savage who lies so effectively that the jury acquitted him of murder.

That's how good of a liar he is.

He got off on murder charges.

He said, this is my favorite.

I've never heard a defense attorney or anybody say this in a court of law.

Quote, he's raping you from that witness stand.

Oh, my God.

It gets

all the way over there.

He said, he's raping you from that witness stand.

He raped one jury already.

Don't let him rape you,

which is good advice for anybody.

Don't let him rape you is good advice.

I've never heard a defense attorney say that he's going to rape you, which is insane.

So February 2nd, 1994, the verdict comes in on Patty.

Not looking good for Patty.

She is found not guilty of everything.

Acquitted?

Acquitted of everything.

How?

How the fuck?

What are they doing?

I don't know, man.

This is wild.

The only person who's really gotten in any trouble out of this is Jeffrey, who got no pussy

and less money than anybody else.

No Aunt Patty slash.

No.

Oh, man.

From the paper, it says as the verdicts were read, Swineheart pitched forward in her chair, then slumped, sobbing against the shoulder of one of her lawyers.

She waited for the jury to leave, then lunged toward weeping family members as they swarmed around her.

Thank God, thank God,

Patricia said over and over again.

She and her family then hurried from the courtroom without comment.

So

in the eyes of the law,

she did nothing.

Jeffrey did everything.

Mount did something on a different case.

And Hall, what did Hall get fucking two years?

Yeah, that he had already served.

What in the hell is happening?

This is a fucking mess of epic proportions.

And Thomas Linford.

He hasn't even tried.

Hasn't even tried yet.

We'll get into that.

Oh, boy.

So this is a mess, man.

her lawyer, Frank DeSimone, said they didn't have anything.

They had Terry Mount, who was nothing, whom the jury chose to disbelieve.

That's it.

Clear and simple.

Go fuck your mothers.

I'm out of here.

Bye.

I'm going.

De Simone out.

I'm going.

So they said, the other defense attorney who's represented her also said, I knew in my heart that she didn't do it.

Nothing changed from 1982

until now, except for Mount.

Now, a juror that they confirmed it, a juror that that they talked to said Mount Mout was the stumbling block.

They said, we didn't feel that she was without guilt.

We all felt that she was covering up evidence, but there was certainly reasonable doubt because if we were to convict her, we had to believe Terry Mout.

Oh, so we've got to give him credibility and we give him none.

Yeah, so even though we think she did it, we're going to acquit her, which is wild.

Now, will she testify against Thomas?

I don't have to do shit.

Yeah, she doesn't have to.

Castor said he planned to call her to testify

in that trial.

Her defense attorney said he would advise her to say, fuck you.

Yeah.

He said, we're going to recommend that she not testify at all.

The bottom line is, we want this horror to end for her.

We also want to alleviate her of any civil liability she might have, considering that she's already been whatever.

So May 1994 is when Thomas is released on contempt and then arrested for murder again as soon as he's released.

Next year, August 1995,

the Pennsylvania Supreme Court refuses to throw out the murder charges against Thomas, saying that it caused an extraordinary delay in his trial, but still you have to do it.

November 1995, a U.S.

magistrate recommends all charges be dropped against Thomas due to unexplainable and unjustifiable delays.

A judge rejects the recommendation again to drop the charges, and they're going to fucking take him to trial.

Right before the trial, a deal is offered to him.

Oh.

Because if they can't convict Patty, what the fuck makes them think that this evidence is going to be better against Thomas?

You know?

So

they are going to

offer him 20 to 40 years if he just admits everything.

He can get 20 to 40.

Yeah, and be done.

And he said, I don't think so.

I'm going to go to, let's go to trial.

Yeah, you guys are like one for three in trial so far

in terms of convictions.

You're not doing too well.

It's like 15 years later almost.

So go fuck yourself.

The prosecutor said Thomas de Blasi made the wrong decision every time he's had an opportunity to make a decision, meaning all of the times he turned down these deals.

The prosecutor now, same guy, Bruce Caster,

he had got the body wire recordings in, not the ones from the house, but the ones that Jeffrey was wearing.

Those are in.

Jeffrey's Jeffrey's going to testify against him.

Oh, in exchange.

All he asked for is a transfer to a minimum security facility.

Send me somewhere better to do this time.

Send me somewhere cushier, and I'll put my brother in prison.

No problem.

They also have Arthur Hall's testimony, and at the last minute, Patricia agrees to testify.

Really?

Yes.

This is fucking...

How crazy is this fucking case, dude?

What?

What's she?

Oh, she's out of her mind, right?

By the way, is there a good person in this entire case?

I haven't found people.

Apart from, I mean, he.

We'll talk about him.

Nobody liked it.

It's crazy.

So

it's crazy.

Anyway, openings in the case.

The prosecution, here's the defense.

Opening statements for the defense.

He tells the jurors, this is not a trial.

about Patricia Swinehart.

This is not a trial about insurance.

This is the trial of Thomas DeBlaise, which sounds like he's really setting up a movie.

We admit there was an affair.

He had an intimate physical relationship with his aunt.

Okay.

Quote, it is ugly in many people's books, but it's certainly not a crime.

I knew it was a rule.

I didn't know it was a law.

In some states, it's illegal.

Holy shit.

Now, the tapes are allowed in.

Like I said, all the tapes that Jeff had, this has gone back and forth 20 times, these tapes, and they're finally allowed in.

11 years coming the every lawyer that's defended thomas has had these tapes thrown out for the last decade and uh yesterday at the second day of the trial they play the what they call the uh brothers crackling curse-filled fragmented and at times oblique conversations all right here we go they said the only thing you have to worry about is what i gave you

which is the one we did before yeah we talked about that one here um he said that uh the only thing you have to worry about is what I gave you.

That's if you're sure that's taken care of.

You burnt that right.

And him saying, you know, that's that with the clothes in it, yeah, with the blood, the pants in it, and the rope, everything's gone.

That shit, back and forth.

The only thing's not gone, but the money.

I still have that buried.

What should I do with it?

Oh, spend it.

There's that.

And then also that you got your cut.

You want to end up like Uncle David.

She looks good for a widow.

They'd have moved by now if they had something.

All the main things.

Now, the defense attorney calls the tapes, quote, totally inconclusive.

Really?

Could have been talking about anything.

He said, 10 tapes, multiple hours.

You'd expect more.

Would you?

Well, he said, you know, I don't know.

He said the tapes incriminate Jeffrey, but they don't incriminate Thomas.

He said Thomas suspected his brother was trying to set him up, too.

So he was just kind of like trying to shut him up.

Arthur Hall, Neanderthal man, comes to court again.

He's in court a lot.

Poor bad.

He said, I told Tommy that a nephew of Mr.

Swinehart, David Shifley, had been questioned before the grand jury about the slaying.

He said

the district attorney told him they had a tape of Mrs.

Swinehart and Tommy talking.

She made a comment that she'd like to get rid of him and that Tommy said, after tonight, you won't have to worry about it.

Tommy just told me, yeah, we had a thing, but he didn't want to discuss it no more, meaning with Patricia.

He told the jurors that he entered the High Point Tavern shortly after 8.

Thomas received a call over the telephone.

Quote, Tommy had a brief conversation, put the phone down, and said, all right, let's go.

He's there.

So on the way to the home, he said that the DeBlais brothers talked about killing David.

He said that would eliminate all our problem, mine and hers.

I just want the son of a bitch dead, Thomas is quoted as saying.

And then they went and killed him.

So, you know, he also testified that he believed he was, quote, going to rob a man, but that instead they beat him to death on the way.

Or they beat him to death when he came out.

Jeffrey came up behind him, whacked him over the head with a baseball bat.

It was a very hard, an overhand swat, and he was demonstrating the blows with a wooden pointer.

Oh, my.

They gave him a pointer.

He said Jeffrey handed the bat to his younger brother, and then that Tommy hit Swinehard a couple of times, saying, this is the end of all our problems.

Crack, crack, crack.

Yay.

Now, cross-examination on Deanderthal man here.

They questioned his credibility and grilled him about repeatedly lying to police and a grand jury before finally agreeing to cooperate in 1985.

He admitted he'd lied when he denied any knowledge of the murder, saying that he did so out of fear.

And they said, you'll do whatever it takes to satisfy the Commonwealth.

What do you have?

What you've said has been dictated by protecting yourself, hasn't it?

Patricia testifies.

Here we go.

Now we're finally getting a story out of her.

We've gotten no words story out of her.

They said she looked like a suburban grandmother, very conservative dress, pearl necklace.

Nothing of, you know, I'm a guy, a woman who fucks her nephew, none of that stuff.

So she took the stand and she was called to account for her actions and everything.

And they said this was the first time in a decade where she actually has to explain herself.

And with her

personal attorney close by, she admitted to having the affair, but repeatedly said she could not remember the details surrounding the incident, meaning the murder.

I can't remember anything.

She said, I don't know what to say to you.

It was a long time ago.

I just don't remember.

Wow.

The district attorney, who reiterated question after question, only to receive the same answer, called the testimony evasive.

He said he would call her back

later if he needed to.

At one point, this is the back and forth.

Mrs.

Swinehart, did you have a sexual relationship with the defendant?

Yes.

He was your nephew by marriage, my husband's nephew.

Yeah.

I didn't fuck my sister's kid.

Yeah.

When did this relationship begin?

Summer of 81.

While you were married, Patricia said, my husband had left me for another woman.

She tried to maintain her composure, but having to describe the affair in court was a little weird for her.

They said, did you ever discuss your husband's insurance policies with Thomas?

She said, everyone knew David had insurance.

How?

I don't.

I know nobody's insurance status unless it's someone I'm married to.

I have no fucking idea what anybody's like.

No friends.

Yeah, I know nothing about their.

We know each other's because we're in business together and we have to.

That's it, though.

Nobody else on earth I know about.

They said, did you ever ask Thomas to kill your husband?

Absolutely not, she says.

Did you call Thomas the night of January 15th, 1982?

I don't recall.

Well, I guess it was

years.

I don't know if I called him or not that night.

He said, You don't recall calling your lover the night your husband was murdered, and she said, It was 14 years ago.

I mean, oh my god, I guess it would be a good idea.

These are terrible answers, yeah.

Oh, my God.

She said she didn't learn about her husband's financial troubles until after he was dead, which isn't true because when they talked about support, they had given her paperwork saying that he was in debt and not didn't have any money.

She repeatedly said she couldn't recall how or when the affair began or how often they met.

She said that was 15 years ago.

I don't know.

I remember plenty about 15 years ago.

Yeah, plenty.

15 years ago, I know if I fucked somebody a lot.

Especially if it was around my spouse being murdered.

I probably remember a little bit about that.

They said, did you want the neighborhood, the Potstown community, to know about the affair with your nephew?

And she said, I didn't think about that.

Oh.

Didn't even think about it.

So, wow.

So using a timeline drawn by this defense attorney, she reconstructed a tightly packed evening that began about 7.25 when she asked her son to move her husband's car so she could drive two visiting students to the local high school.

So that's his car was in the garage.

Yeah.

And they moved it out of the garage.

Wow.

So it'd be easier to deal with.

The car was moved, and by 7.45, she said she'd returned home after dropping them off, picked up her two youngest children and taken them to the store for pencils and candy.

That's the most innocent thing in the world.

I took them for pencils and candy.

There's a where something was just

the first strip club ever, pencils and candy.

There's a there's something recently that somebody gave somebody money and said, go get pencils and candy.

Like it's just a distraction method for children.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Here.

This is what you, yeah.

What was that?

I don't know.

We just I just saw it.

Show we just watched?

It was a show we just watched.

Yeah.

Because we both, yeah, it's something we both watched.

I just watched it.

Was it the Ed Gein thing?

Is it in there?

Were those kids was there pencils and candy with those?

I don't know.

Somebody got pencils and candy with cash.

With cash.

So by eight, about the time the prosecutors say she phoned with Thomas at the local bar, she said she was home.

So she was home to do that.

By nine, the time that he was already dead, she said she was watching Dallas on TV.

Okay.

Which was a giant hit at that point.

It was the biggest fucking show in the world and playing back ammon with her son, David.

Okay, yeah.

Okay, back ammon in Dallas.

Now, the prosecutor called her testimony a lie.

He said she's trying to put herself back at the house by 8 p.m.

In a tense exchange, he pointed out to the jury that her first police statement after the murder, she said she went to the store about 8 p.m.

Prosecutors contend that she left the house then to tell Thomas, his brother, Jeffrey, and the two accomplices

that he was home and they could come over and murder him.

Sure.

Okay, so basically the same shit as they had on Patricia, but not really anything else.

Yeah.

They got Jeffrey's testimony, but Jeffrey also was testifying in the other ones, and it didn't seem to help any.

He testified against Terry Maut.

Who cares?

Right.

Okay.

They find Thomas guilty of first-degree murder.

No rhyme or reason for this whatsoever.

The only people involved were the two brothers.

How do they got enough to get them, but not the other three?

That's so stupid.

It makes no sense.

Now sentencing comes around.

This is death penalty or life without parole.

He could have got five years at one point.

If he just took it.

It would have been well over by now.

I mean,

when you see somebody got nothing, you got to run with it, right?

And a bunch of other people, and the courts are disallowing things.

And his lawyers are probably telling him they don't have shit.

Fuck that.

Don't take it a fucking deal.

So Thomas's family.

They beg for his life here.

His sister and his mother.

His sister, whose sons are the ones that.

Right.

That fucked her.

Oh, yeah.

and his mother are there.

They

begged the jury not to condemn him to die.

His mother said, I have lost many men in my life.

Please don't take him from me.

Please don't take him.

Okay, the sister, Beth, wept openly as she pleaded with the jurors to spare her brother's life.

His wife, Faith, comes out now.

Okay.

Faith, they married while in 1993, she told the jurors that she wanted to be a housewife.

I wanted to raise children when she met him, which led the defense attorney to say, Faith, you know that the verdict virtually ensures that there'll never be children born by you and Tom.

And both of them erupted in tears, Thomas and her.

She said, all I can ask for is your mercy.

At least we'll be able to have Saturdays.

Then she left the witness stand, hunched over, clutching her stomach.

Friends and neighbors, there's no baby in here.

And she ran out.

Friends and neighbors, 14 character witnesses came to the courthouse here

saying that Thomas was a law-abiding, nonviolent person in 1982.

Three of his friends and former neighbors testified.

The rest agreed to support the depictions and back them, basically.

So they didn't have a parade.

They're like, can you just stipulate to what he said?

So everyone's like, yeah, what that guy said.

Me too.

All right, great.

So the defense here,

they're trying to save him, and they say that, quote, that they're in a position,

he's in the position of asking you to spare a life.

He called the killing an aberrant, atypical act and said that in the years since the slaying, Thomas has become a devout Christian and a responsible, repentant man.

Oh, he said he was 23.

We all do things in our youth that we regret doing now.

True.

Not murder for hire after you fucked your aunt.

That's a whoads over the top.

I don't know.

I mean, maybe.

Yeah.

We've all done this.

Oh, Christ.

Who hasn't, really?

Then he asked the jury that, do you believe

that David would ask you to take the life of his nephew?

Do you believe?

Who do you think so?

Who do you think David would want here?

The prosecution closing here said that the killing was committed by means of torture.

He said he was killed 1,100% more than was needed to kill him.

I don't know if that's a scientific number.

It's a good number.

Pulled that one out of their ass.

He told the jurors, referring to the numerous crushing bat blows and steep stab wounds.

He said, Thomas, for 14 years, was presumed innocent.

However, yesterday, by your verdict, you stripped the murderer of his innocence.

The shield has been taken away from him.

And he says he asked the jury to, quote, wield the sword of justice and sentence him to death.

That's

a good caliber.

Wield the sword of justice.

Off with his head.

Off with his head.

They come back and they say, you, sir, may fuck off life without parole.

Okay.

Life without parole for him.

It's very dumb, but all right.

It's, yeah, I think part of it is, too, a jury sits back and they go, no one else got the death penalty for this.

Multiple people were involved in this.

Yeah.

He's going to be the only guy to die.

Let's not do that.

That sounds weird.

And

now the house, after she's acquitted, Patricia kind of vanishes.

She sold the house in 1995.

Okay.

The family house.

The new owners reported finding bloodstains in the garage that, quote, no amount of cleaning could remove.

Oh, wow.

They're still there?

They demolished the garage entirely.

Wow.

Now, this house, in 1999, it sold for $1,864.

What the fuck?

So that has to be like a transfer to somebody, like somebody gave it to somebody else.

That's just like the taxes.

Exactly.

Exactly what that is.

So that's interesting.

2007.

Remember Jeffrey?

Yeah.

He's in a lot more trouble.

Really?

Oh, yeah.

He is found guilty of third-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder after a joint trial with a co-defendant named Louis Mann in

2007.

This happened in 1996 as the crime.

Jeffrey and Mann were cellmates in the State Correctional Institute at Pittsburgh, also known as the Western Penitentiary.

Wow.

Jeffrey and Mann murdered a fellow inmate, Timothy Boris, who died of asphyxiation due to strangulation.

They strangled this guy.

Wow.

Since he was already incarcerated on another murder, his conviction triggered a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment, which he already had.

There was testimony

that they observed the victim arguing with

Jeffrey and Mann.

According to this other person, he later spoke with the victim.

After this guy was asked what the victim stated, there was an objection, and all this goes on.

And they go on.

They said that the argument was about drugs, that Jeff gave him some drugs, and Tim got scared and gave it to another guy.

They had an argument because the guy died from the drugs.

Okay.

This guy also testified that he witnessed Jeffrey using a chokehold on the victim inside his own Jeffree's cell while the other guy, Mann, was punching the victim.

Afterwards, Jeffrey and Mann approached this other guy inside his cell and asked him for help carrying the victim back to his cell.

This guy declined to help and suggested that they ask two other inmates, Carlos Vasquez and Adam Colon, for assistance.

He then saw the four of these guys carrying the body of the victim.

He said the men dropped the victim at one point and the victim didn't even grunt.

Yeah, because he's dead.

Because he's dead, yeah.

They acknowledged an argument in the cell and all this type of thing.

Richard Guy, Dick Guy, the victim's cellmate, also testified that Jeffrey and Mann had approached him and told him that the victim had overdosed on heroin and they had attempted to revive him.

We're just getting rid of him.

Yeah.

When Guy re-entered his cell, he saw the victim who he thought was asleep.

Guy then used heroin himself and fell asleep.

When he awoke the next morning, the victim was unresponsive, bloated, and purple.

He called for a guard and was removed to solitary confinement.

This guy was, not the dead guy.

Later, Mann, Jeffrey's co-defendant, informed this cellmate that he had had an argument with the victim and a struggle ensued before, quote, things got out of hand.

The autopsy revealed the victim had abrasions and bruising on his face and back, as well as his neck.

His eyes had hemorrhaged,

and the forensic pathologist concluded he'd been strangled to death.

Jesus.

Now, the swineheart children.

What becomes of all of them?

Where do they go?

Yeah.

With mom, she's acquitted.

Yeah, Well, they were all adults by then.

Yeah.

So by the time she was acquitted, they were all adults.

So the oldest son, who was 17 at the time of the murder, left Pennsylvania immediately after high school, changed his name.

Now, I heard he was a lawyer, so I don't know if he left after all of that or what, or came back.

They said one of the daughters became a therapist specializing in childhood trauma, and she spoke publicly about growing up with all of this dead father, mother on trial and all that.

The little girl,

who was six at the time, who'd drawn the pictures on the casket,

she had a hard time.

She had addiction in her 20s.

This is a rough thing.

Multiple arrests.

I mean, not good.

Finally got clean in 2010 and started working as an addiction counselor in Philadelphia.

And then the saddest of all, in 2008, the youngest son committed suicide.

What the fuck?

Leaving a note that said, quote, can't escape the family curse.

Jeez.

Oh, he had an uncle that did it.

Yeah.

God damn.

Had an uncle that did it, a father that died.

It's a mess.

So that's horrible.

2018, now remember Terry Lee Mott?

He was acquitted of the murder, but served 20 years on forgery and theft charges unrelated to this.

He was released in 2005 from prison on those charges, and he never admitted his involvement in the murder and died in 2018 of liver failure

arthur hal was released from prison in 1988 moved away from pennsylvania and just came back for trials and shit and i don't know what happened to him arthur hall is a common name and it was very difficult to dig his dig him up that's uh captain caveman yeah who knows

uh 2020 is when a former detective is interviewed and this is very interesting this is a guy he's dying of cancer and doesn't give a a fuck, so he's going to talk.

He said, quote, we all knew Patricia did it.

Hell, the whole town knew.

But knowing and proving, that's different.

She played us all.

The grieving widow act, the concerned mother routine.

You want to know the truth?

David Swinehart was an asshole.

This guy doesn't give a fuck anymore.

I want to know the truth.

David Swinehart was an asshole, cheated on his wife, flaunted his money, treated people like dirt.

Did he deserve to die?

No.

But did anyone really mourn him?

Also, no.

On both of them.

Fuck him.

His kids are the only ones that cared, and his mom.

The real victims were those kids.

Growing up knowing your mother probably had your father killed.

Your cousins are in prison for it.

And everyone in town knows your business.

That's a life sentence worse than prison.

Yeah, that sucks.

That really does.

Yeah, those are their first cousins, literally.

First cousins.

Jeffrey gave his first interview at age 69 from prison.

He He said, I think about that night every day.

Wow, that's a weird way to put that.

Right.

It's hard to, I think, that night every day.

Not the murder.

That's a blur of blood and adrenaline.

I think about the moment before when I could have said no, could have walked away, could have been anything other than what I became.

Thomas still won't talk about it, Jeffrey says, still protecting Patricia, I guess, or protecting himself from the truth that she used us all.

Right.

She played us.

He said, you want to know the funny part?

The money, that $523,000 we killed for, Patricia burned through it in two years on lawyers.

We destroyed four families for money that just ended up in Frank DeSimone's pocket.

Unbelievable.

Yep.

He said, if I could tell young guys in Potstown anything, it'd be this.

There's no shortcut, no insurance payout worth your soul.

You want money, work for it.

You want love, don't look for it in your uncle's wife.

Right.

These are all very, you want money, work for it.

You want love, don't fuck your aunt.

These are all real basic concepts I think we can all agree agree on here.

David Swinehart was a bastard, but he didn't deserve what we did.

No one liked this guy.

That's what I mean.

Nobody does.

And we didn't deserve what happened to us either, but we chose it.

Every swing of the bat, every thrust of that knife, we chose it.

I'll die in here.

Thomas will die in here.

Patricia's probably already dead.

David's definitely dead.

Was any of it worth it?

What do you think?

I'm going to say no.

Nope.

September 2021.

Thomas wants an appeal based on the fact that he was only 23 years old when this went down.

And the U.S.

Supreme Court recently deemed mandatory life terms for juveniles unconstitutional.

And they said, well, 23 isn't a juvenile.

Keep fucking off, asshole.

What are you talking about?

What a dumb thing.

It's close.

Yeah, I mean, you know, he had some developmental things.

They're like, get the hell out of here.

He's 23, for Christ's sake.

Thomas is incarcerated at the state correctional institution at Cole Township, life without parole.

He's had multiple disciplinary infractions early on, found religion in 2001 and became the

prison chaplain's assistant.

Wow, whatever.

He knows how to get special privileges, is what that is.

Jeffrey is at the

Huntingdon, is what it's called in Montgomery County there.

Okay, now other things that happened, the Swinehart case changed Pennsylvania law.

Commonwealth versus Deblais became precedent for consensual recording admissibility, speedy trial rights during appeals, and wiretap evidence in murder cases.

Bruce Caster, the prosecutor on all of this, went on to become Montgomery County District Attorney, then county commissioner.

He appeared on investigation discovery five times for different reasons, always citing the Swineheart case as the one that still haunts him.

I believe it, yeah.

The case is still taught at Pennsylvania law schools as an example of

how you can very easily lose a case if you only have circumstantial evidence.

Never trust a family in murder conspiracies.

For sure.

And basically, this is how you not commit a murder.

This is terribly dumb.

This is so bad.

Now, Patricia, there's two

conflicting stories, and I think I found the right answer.

Patricia moved to Florida, then Arizona, then disappeared entirely.

Some people say she remarried.

Others claim she died in the early 2000s.

This is an article from an article.

In 2019, a woman claiming to be Patricia's daughter told a reporter, my mother died in 2007, lung cancer.

She never admitted anything, but she never denied it either.

Her last words were, I'm sorry for everything.

Okay, but that's that.

But I did some digging myself and took a way too much time to do this, but I found

And it's her, man.

I found Patricia A., because she's Patricia Ann, Patricia Ann Lindsay, her neighbor's fucking husband.

Yeah.

And it's all, it's Boynton Beach, Florida, and it's all of like her relatives are her relatives that I don't know, that we know of, her kids and shit like that.

This says that she was died on June in June of 2023 at age 82.

Oh, boy.

That's what this says.

I don't know which is true, but that seems right to me.

She stuck around way too long.

She married her goddamn neighbor's husband and moved to Florida.

Oh, thank you.

This case was seen on Deadly Affairs.

Yeah.

The TV show Three to Tango is the name of the episode.

They said a love affair takes a murderous turn when David Swinehart discovers his wife skinny dipping in the gene pool is the way they describe it.

So there you go, everybody.

Potts Town, Pennsylvania.

That is one of the most twisted, weird, crazy goddamn cases we've ever covered.

That's fucked up, man.

The whole thing is a disaster.

Nothing good came of it.

Just awfulness all around.

How long did she live?

I think till 2023.

Wow.

82 years, I think, after all that.

Who knows?

So there you go, everybody.

If you like what we're dishing out here, if you like what we're cooking, please, please get on whatever app you're listening on and give us five stars.

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So get in there and do it.

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We're going to wear costumes like idiots.

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Damn it.

Oh, you know what's going to happen.

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Listen to our other two shows too, Crime in Sports and Your Stupid Opinions, which we think you're going to love.

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Just take them.

This week, what we're going to give you for crime and sports, we're going to talk about those old MTV rock and jock specials, which is basically we're going to make fun of like tiny actors for trying to fucking get a shot over Reggie Miller.

You know, it's ridiculous.

So

we talked about that.

Tony and Tony.

All three Tony's playing three on three with Bell, Biv and DeVoe.

So

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We've got so many requests we had to do it.

That's patreon.com slash crimeinsports.

And you get a shout out at the end of the show.

By the way, you also get everything ad-free on there as well.

All the shows, Crime and Sports, Your Stupid Opinion, Small Time Murder, all ad-free on Patreon.

And you get a shout-out, Jimmy Hippie, with the names of the people who would just never do any of the shit that happened this week.

Never fuck our aunts and kill people.

Just never do any of it.

Hippie with them right now.

This week's executive producer, Brian Kush Flower Child BMX.

It's a lot to say.

That's a lot of stuff.

I don't know what all that means.

Gary Howard.

Elena's Adams.

I don't want to ride bikes.

Yeah.

Gary.

Hello, Gary.

And Elena, she's lovely.

She's Canadian.

Toronto.

Thank you.

Matter of fact.

Kyle Nogerwick.

Toronto.

Another guy.

Terrific.

I think he's in England.

I can't remember.

I think so.

Well, thank you.

But Olivia is 17.

Happy birthday, Olivia.

That's Jenny Koon's kid, I think.

Jenna didn't say if that's her child.

She said it's Olivia's birthday.

So we have to talk about it.

Some 17-year-old named Olivia, we wish you a happy birthday.

Happy birthday.

Frannie Hitsky.

Also, somebody been around.

She's in Australia.

She was going to come to a show.

She's incredibly sick.

Don't eat tainted meat.

Poor Franny is dealing.

Tim, she's destroyed about it, too.

Tim Teisler.

Teisler?

DeBravco?

DeBravco Zaja.

I don't know what that means.

Oh, it means Oak Grove.

That's what it means.

And they're very depressed now because of the

small-town murder show from Oak Grove.

That episode?

Yeah.

Jonathan Batchelor and Ian Elliott.

Those are executive.

Thank you all so much for everything you do.

Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Ryan Bender.

Oh, boy.

Happy Hour, checking in in Greeley, Colorado.

Happy Hour is on the tour of the worst towns in America.

That's better than

we were at one place.

I don't know if that's the one.

Oh, he goes to the worst place.

El Paso.

Tel Paso.

Yeah, that's the worst thing, really.

Poor Baskin.

Janice Hill.

Yeah, and Albuquerque, all kinds of New Mexico shit.

Devin James,

Lauren Bender, another bender.

Jesus.

Kay Perry, Andrea Ranieri, Darcy D, Becca Keel, Kell, Keel.

Daphne Young, Jake with no last name.

LMO with no last name.

Colin Andrade,

Todd Nickel, Knickel.

Nick,

Loprofito, Don Carpenter, Brandon Wetherell, Wetherill,

Robert Phillips, Gabrielle Betton, Holden Roberts.

Okay, that is a real name.

Charles Moore.

I was trying to figure out what's a Roberts.

What character?

Right.

What are we holding?

Got it.

All right, Charles Moore, Danzines, Danzines, 1987.

Devin Prout,

Galad Horain, what?

Sheila McCommons, Doug Carlton, E.V.

McKenzie,

Coley Stroud, Cindy with no last name, Dean Goldsmith, Reese with no last name, Danielle with no last name, Garrett with no last name, Peggy Metzger, Melissa Dickinson, Jenny with no last name, M.

Casper, 1996, Melissa F., Aaron Williams,

Ryan, nope, that's Sally, Redmond,

Mitchell,

Sally and Ryan.

I mix those up all the time.

Understandable.

Ah, common mistake.

Mitchell Gildea.

He's terrific on Instagram.

Natalie Nelson, Jane Fitzpatrick, Big Nate, Robin Adamson, RPSGT.

I don't know what one of those is.

Cloyster Moist, when your cloister is dry.

I don't know what that is.

James Bignell, Benel maybe.

B with no last name.

Jonathan Garcia, Memo Lira, Jaden Sevier, Carrie Palmer, Connie Below Spencer.

Evidentially, she's under Spencer.

Craig Breeze,

Evan, Evan Hosinski,

Amber Jean Goodman, Renee Mitrovich, Nikki Nelson Rowley, Judy Irby, Lilith with no last name, like Fair, Melissa with no last name, Sharon Concannon, Bambi Lynn, Lane Sears, Kevin V, Aaron Tricker, Laura Walker, AJ Mahuel, Sarah Mayle, Mali, I don't know, Jay, nope, that's Stephen.

Nope, it's Steve Cessna, Deanna Ordina,

Melanie Pacific, Kuro Kabada, Megan Rees, Elizabeth Ihorn, Lana Ayad, Sidney with no last name, Delilah Waggy, Stacey Williamson, Alex Tinker, Amanda Loth, Eddie LaBoef Jr., LaBoeuf, LaBoef, Jody with no last name, Dina Katz,

Emily, what is it, Jody?

Oh, I don't know.

One of the names sounded like a character from something.

Dina Katz.

Oh, it's Eddie LeBeck from Cheers.

Never mind.

There it is.

Emily Dye.

Helen Yang.

Oh, don't.

Victoria, what the fuck?

SJ?

Shoblom.

You moved your glasses like that.

Damn, that's not going to help.

You moved your glasses up and down like there was something.

What's going on there?

Where's the letter?

It's missing the letter, right?

Focus was the problem.

Sioblom.

Renee with no last name.

Autumn Yieldling.

Yielding?

Yielding.

Savannah Sanchez, your mom gay.

Maybe your mom is.

Jennifer Elsario.

If my mom was, I wouldn't be here.

That's impossible.

Well, you might be.

Well, that's been somebody else's mom.

That's what I mean.

Daniel Morris, Dalton Lawrence, Lawrence, Josh with no last name.

Gail 10A, imagine Dragon D's nuts.

I will imagine that.

Nicholas Springer, Dennis Pharrell, Delaney Delene, Delaney, Antoinette Kruger, Bridget Beck, Cassie, Jaguar,

Gaguere, Jaguer,

Bethany Arthur, Deep Fried Italian, Philip Bustamante, Jessica Hulsey, Heather Shudders, Deontay Holland, Jay Legler, Marion Gonzalez, Help Mock, I live here.

Okay.

Pippin P.

Peperton.

Erica with no last name.

Trent with no last name.

Shannon M.

Michaelo Verstvorholst.

Melissa Stebbins.

Sherry O'Farrell.

Johnny on the Spot.

Joanne Moore.

Paul Morenum.

Tim McCormick.

Joanne Luzzo.

Juliana Cruz.

Katie Schmitz, Victoria Honeywild,

Tommy Spence.

Amanda with no last name.

Gina Burr.

Oh boy, Bernardi Nini, Liz with Liz D, Jessica Townsell, Lauren Connizzaro, Michael Wetterland, Beth with no last name, Tabitha Buengue, Rob King, Casey with no last name, Nick Smith, Verdante Volpine.

What?

I didn't get that right.

Susan Rompa, Tabitha Nelson, Tom Mackey, Susan with no last name, Elise Alice, Elise Raits,

Katie Porter, perhaps.

I hope it's that one.

Don Scarborough, Matt DiPierto, Di Puerto.

Is that how it is?

Yeah.

P.R.

It's Italian.

Jessica, Cusack, Joseph Lamaster, Justine Yates, Lycan, Lycan, Lycan 90.

I don't know what that is.

Danielle Ziglaveski.

Ziglavski.

Travis Heath, Lisa Justice, Jen with no last name, Sophia McCreary, Carrie with no last name, Simon with no last name, Ed Fox, Brittany Black Will,

Descent,

Denise Flood, Heather Kennybrook,

Rob West, Caleb DeWitt, Kaylee Thomas, Jessica Waisaki, Chiang, Chiang, Jed J.

Ed,

Exotic Minivan.

That's not a thing.

Boot War, Mary Elizabeth, Lauren Ball, or Bell, it's Ball.

Lori Ditchfield, Izzy with no last name.

B Boo, Susie Homebody,

Gloria, James.

That's a, oh, I was going to read something.

That's Gloria, Haywood.

Gloria.

That made it sound like a fucking STD stuff.

It's a disease.

I got the Gloria.

It's the Gloria, man.

It's bad.

It's all over the place.

Rebecca Durr.

It's bad to my ass, man.

It's the worst.

Pia Thompson, Isaac Watson, Crispy Mittens.

I don't know what that is.

Christine with no last name.

Chad with no last name.

Caitlin Maury, Amy Shackleford, Dylan with no last name.

Dale Louise, Chris Hamlin, Olivia Wilson, Chris Chris Mearling, Joshua Alberry,

Linda Daly, Lind D.

Daly, Bethany Boltz, Kristen Johnson, Tim Rushing, Meg, oh, Miguel, Miguel, James, Miguel with no last name, Dustin Schroerr,

Charles Hickey, Adam Manning, Lone Saturn,

I guess

that's a star.

No, it's not.

Benjamin Grundy.

I just tried to talk myself into something.

I'm going to walk away from it.

Kenneth Knox, Charles Horne, Chris Imans,

Renee Hopkins, Irma Irma, Irma

Mulvehill, Davis Vandy Steeg, Lindsey Doherty, Linda Harris, Rella with no last name, Segol

with no last name, Trentner Trenton Turner.

Andrew, what is this?

Mac McRitchie.

Andrew McRitchie.

Katie McCurdy, Vern Breski, Bobby Hagemeister, Jared Hammond, Lisa Yazelle, Yazelle, Ashley Ray, Walter with no last name, Tim Brazil, Jared Smith, Ralph with no last name, Sandra Dye, Ashley Bryant, Amanda Kajard, Kaj Dan,

Missy B with no last name, Elizabeth LaRue, Keegan Vanderpol, Tracy in San Diego,

Stephen Farrell, Stephen Farrell,

Johnny Batch.

There was a guy named Batch, right?

Taron Perkins.

There he is.

Fernando Enrique DeBarros, Chloe Schmidt, Rob Hatfield of the McCoy's Jams, Jams, James Hinton, Francisco, that's fun to say, Medina, Devin Lehman,

Henry T., Michelle with no last name, Kim Robinson, and all of our patrons.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much, everybody.

Spectacular, wonderful bastards.

We goddamn love the shit out of you.

And just thank you for all that you do for us.

Keep coming back and seeing us.

Head over to shutupandgivemeurder.com if you want to follow us on social media.

All of the shit has a drop-down menu.

Follow it to wherever you want to take it.

Don't fuck your aunt.

Oh, boy.

And until next week, everybody,

it's been our pleasure.

Bye.