#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia

Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about a delicious dog food, Ollie.
If your dog could talk, they'd want Ollie. They'd ask you for Ollie.
That's what I'm talking about. It's a fresh whole food diet.
It's not just delicious. It can add, like, years to your puppy's life.
Yeah. You want that good, healthy food that's more tail wagging.
And this is. This is real food.
Like, this stuff looks good. I'd eat it.
Yeah. That's how I was like, this looks pretty good.
I might sit down with you on the floor and you could share. It is nice to be able to pop something down on the floor for him that looks like something that you'd put over rice or whatever and eat it yourself.
That's what I mean. It looks great.
All you need to do, you fill out their 30 second quiz that Ollie has for you. They create a customized meal plan based on your puppy's weight and activity level and health info in general there.
You get expert recommendations. Dogs deserve the best, and that means fresh, healthy food.
Head to ollie.com slash STM. Tell them all about your dog and use code STM to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today.
Plus, they offer a clean bowl guarantee on the first box. So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back.
That's O-L-L-I-E dot com slash STM and enter code STM to get 60% off your first box. Now back to the show.
Hi, this is Steve Buscemi. You know, the actor.
Well, now I'm an actor and podcast host.

From piece of work entertainment and campsite media

in association with Olive Productions

comes Big Time, an Apple original podcast.

Each episode follows the story of one misfit with big dreams

who isn't afraid to bend a few rules

or take a shortcut to get there.

Well, who steals bees?

I was duped.

I shoot you in the leg. This is Big Time.
Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. Dreaming of hydrated skin amidst these dry winter months? Dime offers clean, master esthetician-crafted skincare products that deeply nourish, protect, and hydrate.
Their formulas, made with clean ingredients, lock in moisture for skin that stays soft, smooth, and radiant all season long. Hydration starts with Dime's best-selling hyaluronic acid serum, delivering deep moisture where your skin craves it most.
This lightweight, fast-absorbing serum helps quench dryness, plump skin, and boost elasticity from the inside out. Once your skin is prepped with the serum,

seal in all that hydration with their Dewy Day Cream, a rich, luxurious moisturizer designed to provide all-day softness and lasting glow. Together, this powerful duo keeps your skin smooth, supple, and luminous, even in the harshest weather.
Shop the duo now a robbery, but soon develops into a horrifying conspiracy that is both cruel and completely idiotic.

Welcome to Small Town Murder. conspiracy that is both cruel and completely idiotic welcome to small town murder hello everybody and welcome back to small town murder yay oh yay indeed jim.
Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo.
I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman.
Thank you, folks, so much for joining us on another absolutely crazy episode of Small Town Murder. All I have to say is two words, West Virginia.
That's where we are this week. You know it's crazy.
We'll put it that way. There we go.
We'll get to that. First of all, very quickly, shut up and give me murder.com.
Get your tickets for live shows this year, February 7th, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. You are on deck.
Get in there the next night in Columbus sold out already. So no tickets for that.
Thank you, Columbus, for selling that out. You guys are great.
So thank you for that. Also, I think there's about 20 tickets left to Portland in November.
So it's 99% sold out, I saw. So you might want to get in there.
And also Philly, D.C., Seattle, all those at the end of the year selling real fast. Madison's almost sold out already.
So it's crazy. So thank you so much, everybody, for doing thatupandGiveMeMurder.com Get your tickets today for all the 2025 live shows.
Also get yourself Patreon. Do yourself a favor.
Patreon P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material. $5 a month or above.
You get everything, hundreds of back episodes you've never heard before, new ones every other week, one crime and sports, one small-town murder, and you get all of it for that low, low price. And this week is no different.
This week for crime and sports, we are going to talk a little bit about Kobe Bryant's problems back in Colorado. Yeah, we're going to talk about Kobe's Colorado problems from 2005 or whatever it was.
We'll get into that. We'll read the whole deposition and we'll try to figure out what went on there, basically, because it's a big cloudy thing that nobody really knows what happened.
So we'll read and find out what actually happened. Then for small town murder, back by popular demand, we're going to do another internet salad here.
Okay. Which means anything that's going on on the internet the day we record, except politics.
Yeah. Everybody, we did it around the election.
It was so much fun. When all the news is politics, we're going to say, here's all the news that isn't politics.
There it is. And we're going to have a great time with it.
It's going to be a lot of fun. Patreon.com slash crime and sports.
And you get a shout out at the end of the show. So there you go.
Jimmy will mispronounce your name, even though he'd love to get it correct. So that's how that goes.
Disclaimer time. Number one, we're comedians.
This is a comedy show, but the murders are insanely real. That's the thing.
There's nothing as embellished for comic effect or no silliness like that. These are absolutely meticulously researched murder stories that are insanely factual that we make jokes on.
That's what happens. But you say, how the hell do you do that? Well, number one, we think it makes it a little more digestible.
I don't know. The somberness of a lot of these, it makes me very uncomfortable and it's hard to listen to stories like that.
A little joke here and there. But when it's appropriate.
See, what you don't do is you don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why, James? Because we're assholes.
Yes, but. But we're not scumbags.
See how that works? It's great the way it works, and the show works wonderfully. We think you'll love it.
If you don't love it, then I don't know. Maybe true crime and comedy doesn't ever go together for you.
but for the rest of people who really want to hear a crazy story about this, we got a wild one for you here. I think it's time, everybody, to sit back.
Let's all clear the lungs, shall we, here? Let's go arms to the sky and let's all shout, Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.
Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. We have to.
We have to. We're going to Princeton, West Virginia this week.
Yeah. Princeton, like the Ivy League.
That is Princeton, New Jersey. Yeah.
Absolutely. Princeton.
And then you get to West Virginia and go, wow, this isn't what I expected. Especially where this is.
This is like rural southern West Virginia. It's about an hour 40 to Roanoke, Virginia.
So it's down by the Virginia border. It's about 55 minutes to Sky Gusty, West Virginia, which was our last West Virginia episode, the trust game, which was a bad game.
Oh, that was terrible. Terrible, terrible game on any part of that.
And it's really close to Parisburg, Virginia, which we did about a month ago for the Appalachian Trail Killer guy. So this is a real interesting area around here.
It's in Mercer County, area code 304. And the motto here is it is the, quote, heart of Mercer County.
Is it? I guess. I don't know what that means there's a lot of the heart yeah a lot of hard of and a lot of live work and play bullshit they like to throw in there a little bit of history of this town not too much but a little bit in southern west virginia late 19th century so late 1800s coal mining and transportation became a big deal here that was a so you know you had the railroads and they were in with the coal mines because you needed to get the coal out of there somehow.
So a lot of the region's coal was sent northwest to the Great Lakes or over to Baltimore and the coal piers in Baltimore or to the world's greatest ice-free port of Hampton Roads in East Virginia. That's what they say.
I don't know. Ice-free? Ice-free, I guess.
Not going to freeze ice over for some reason. Princeton's location was east of the coal fields, and most of the coal mining and railroad activity was somewhere else at first, but then it became a thing that ended up being with Princeton.
Princeton got real tied up in the railroad, the Virginia Railroad, which is called the VGN. But the problem is that basically a mountain that's filled with coal doesn't last forever.
No. So once that's depleted, then you just got – the companies leave, and then that's that.
And they leave behind depleted mines and things like like that and the same thing happens with the railroads that are no longer

needed either for the coal so by 2006 here the VGN that's the Virginia Railroad Princeton shops facilities were demolished there and these were like really old buildings too that kind of gave the town some character some charm so the residents were

really upset about this that they all got torn down so they built a replica of the vgn's two story princeton passenger station and offices they just it's there's no they just built it so people and they said it's the largest effort in the entire state this is is a state that is dying from, like, opioid epidemic. And it has the lowest income in the country, the lowest housing price.
Everything here is depressed and low. And they're like, what if we spent a bunch of money to build a replica of a building that made people smile? Like, what the hell are you talking about? What will the new one do? us smile that's terrific a star high school player a football player who wanted to play for the mountaineers i think he may have went to the went and played for the mountaineers for like one season either got hurt or failed out and then the last scene of the documentary is him plucking coal off the side of a mountain to warm his house.
Like in American Hollow, like on the ground going in the mountain to pick it. Yeah.
Oh, my God. That's so sad.
That's fucking horrible. But they got enough money to build replica.
Yep. I don't think a lot of people realize that there's people living a Charlie Bucket lifestyle.
It's really fucked up. Right now.
I don't think people realize that. Today, this second.
Right this fucking minute. There are people that technologically cannot listen to what we're doing right now.
Yes, literally. No matter how much they want to, they'd have to go to a McDonald's to do it.
That's shocking. They don't even have the actual machine to go to McDonald's to get on the Wi-Fifi to listen to it they can't even do it but technically technically they could if they really wanted to but they got the rough looking train station that is wild so reviews of this town they got that though that's very important reviews of this town four stars here is the first one depends on who you ask i suppose okay how about we're asking you you're the one leaving the review okay that's the first one.
Depends on who you ask, I suppose. Okay.
We're asking you. You're the one leaving the review.
That's the thing. If someone brings you food and you eat it and they go, how was your lunch? And you go, depends on who you ask.
Who the fuck else am I asking? You ate the sandwich. Tell me whether it was good or not.
It's okay. Kind of quiet and used to be low crime, but the past couple years it has spiked due to the high drug activity that's taken over the whole county that Princeton is in.
And that's pretty much all of West Virginia at this point. Mostly property crimes or theft.
We'll see about that later. We have the stats here.
So it depends on which part of Princeton you live. But the more rural areas in Mercer County outside of Princeton, in my opinion, are better choices on where to live if you're going to move here.
That's where our story takes place. Go more rural? Yes.
Outside. Outside of this tiny town we'll talk about is not very big.
The job market in Princeton, to me, are much to be desired. Are there as there are way more banks, fast food restaurants and used car lots than anything else, leaving not a lot of choice unless you're fine with these types of jobs so that's every small town limited employment that's what you get three stars crime is everywhere yeah whether uh wherever you go you are going to have crime there's crime here you just don't hear of it that often okay so it's not affecting you that's good i think that mainly the problem is neighbors disrespecting neighbors really that doesn't sound like crime that just sounds like people are dicks that sounds awful i know i've had to call the cops a few times at where i live just because of the neighbors either they're being too loud or simply being rude you call the cops because your neighbors are rude yeah we can't do that.
You can't be building fucking replica train stations and wasting resources because your people... You gotta think for a minute where you live and this is valuable resources here.
Hello, 911. Yeah, Bill didn't say good morning.
Yeah. It's a high crime area, but rudeness is really what we should worry about wow but i've come to realize that no matter where you go you're going to have problems yeah you just described everywhere um one star i love this one star there is no nightlife in princeton the applebee's in town is open until 11 that's the nightlife the applebee's and that's the closest thing to nightlife that this town gets.
The bars here are dives and so full of crime any decent person will be too scared to go in them. Really? Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia.
Picture those bars. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Illegal slot machines and shit like that. Shirtless slot players and pill snorting off the back of a dirty toilet.
Hello, 911. There's a barbecue next door.
Is it too loud? No, they didn't invite me. They didn't invite me, and it smells good, too.
They got ribs. That is downright rude.
I smell groundhog cooking. All right, one star.
Lived here for 20 years. The Princeton and surrounding areas have to become terrible.
Have to become terrible. Okay.
I think have become terrible, and they put two in there for some reason. The roads around here are extremely dangerous with no police presence.
There's all kinds of trash and debris everywhere. I'm giving it a one star town.
It used to be a nice place to live, but no more. There's very little activity for children.
It's pretty much right. Disgusting of a place.
The The crime rate is no punctuation at all here. This is awesome.
The crime rate is high with a bunch of drug overdoses. People are stealing items all the time.
It really looks bad on the state for people visiting the area. There definitely needs to be more police on patrol.
People are just doing as they please. Five exclamation points.
That's the first punctuation we've come to at one time this town used to be very nice i apologize to people visiting our area wow apologies yeah five exclamations after that apology too uh population this town 58 85 so less than 6 000 it's a small area it really is um which is not normal. It's usually a few, a little extra female, but more male.
But you get anywhere where there's like coal jobs and stuff, you're going to have a couple more males. Median age is about five years higher than the normal.
It's 43 here. Family here, it's less than the 50-50 are married.
More people that are single with children. It's kind of a, yeah, less of a, seems like usually a small town like this has like, you know, high like quote unquote family numbers.
Right. And this doesn't.
So that's interesting. Race in this town, 85.4% white, 6.6% black, 0.4% Asian, 3.8% Hispanic.
And let's see here. The unemployment rate here is 7%, which is a good sight higher than the rest of the country where it's hovering in the fours here, which is not uncommon for West Virginia because those jobs go away.
Median household income here, though, is only $39,569 a year, Which is about $30,000 less than the national average.

It's not good.

And the cost of living, though, $100 is regular average.

Here it is $71.

It's a lower.

Housing here, though, is the lowest one of all of everything.

The median home cost here is $140,800.

Median.

Still too high.

It seems high, yeah, from not making any money but if we've convinced you you know what i'm going to west virginia if you have just john denver just bouncing around your head over and over and you need it gotta get it yeah we have for you the Princeton, West Virginia, real estate report. Real Estate Report.

Average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $730 a month,

which is $500 less than the national average.

Yeah, very low.

Here is a three-bedroom, one-bath, 1,000-square-foot house.

All of the pictures are from a distance and from the outside. So that tells you a lot.
No interior shots whatsoever. It is listed at $15,000.
Oh my god. $15,000, but the listing says disregard listing price.
Property will be sold at auction. Oh, you can get it cheaper.
Cheaper. Property was sold at public auction ending Monday, February 17th at 6 p.m.
and you do online bids only. So you can pick that house up for less than like a 10-year-old Toyota Corolla.
Enjoy. Here is a four-bedroom, four-bath.
T-ball for each and every behaw right here. 2,296 square feet.
It's a cool old house, actually, this is. It's very old, really nice.
It has, the listing says it has the old home charm, but with all the essential updates. They have all the original wood pocket doors entering the living room spaces and shit.
Those doors that go into the walls. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
A lot of people got rid of those back in the day. And they're kind of popular now because they're an old school feature.
They still have. There's a lot of cool old features in this house.
It's really nice. 295,000 bucks for that.
Okay. It's a big house.
2,300 square feet. Not bad.
And then this house is goddamn awesome. Six bed, five bath, 6,600 square feet.
Enormous. Holy shit.
It's beautiful on one and a half acres. It's just a cool house.
It's obviously haunted. Now, that's a separate issue.
If you can live with the hauntings, fine. Ghosts with black lung.
Yeah, but the it has a lot of it's like kind of farty like rooms will have like old timey wallpaper in them and stuff, but all the original moldings around the ceilings are all there. There's a fucking library in this with a wall that's completely bookshelved.
All books. It's so cool.
It's just a cool ass house. The listing says, quote quote it's your turn to own the queen of princeton west virginia so this house is known as the queen of west of princeton west virginia it's the apple of the eye if you would like to be the queen of princeton west virginia we have for you this house 485 000 bucks the best house in the entire county, $485,000.
6,000 square feet. 6,600 square feet.
It's beautiful, too. I'm telling you.
If it was anywhere else, I'd be like, that's a fucking, let's talk about this. Is there any acreage with that? An acre and a half.
One acre. One and a half acres.
That's amazing. Big old nice property.
It's fucking great. I mean, this is a great property.
It's the queen, damn it. Things to do.
Celebrate Princeton Festival. That's what it's fucking great it's i mean this is a great property it's the queen damn it things to do celebrate princeton festival that's what it's called oh yeah um this is just a shitload of performances by different people and we'll get into all of them in the coveted 10 a.m to 11 a.m slot which all the musicians love it is strings of green green with an e so it must be a guy named Green.
Yeah. I assume or a lady named Green.
I don't know. Then the 11 o'clock slot, you got the Fluidity Performance Troop.
I don't know what the hell they do. At 11.30, Into the Fog will perform.
Hell yeah. Okay.
Interesting. 1.30, Appalachian Soulman Aristotle Jones, it says will be there.
Appalachian Soulman Aristotle Jones, it says, will be there. Appalachian Soulman.
Aristotle, named after a Greek philosopher. Right, I don't need to hear that.
Wow. 330, James Hart and Old Soul Reunion will be there.
And then other ones that will just be popping up throughout the day. Lily Comer.
Big fan of Lily Comer. James Hart, H-A-R-T.
Yeah, sure. Okay.
Brett's brother. Miles Monique.
It's Monique with a U instead of an O. Emma Shirey.
And finally, of course, John Bolt will be there. be there you gotta have john bolt is it with an e no no e on that one just a bolt in a fucking yeah a bolt in a piece of i don't know a single one of these people never heard about it to be honest fucking crazy i don't think there's yeah these are locals i would imagine from the area, all-day Ferris wheel, water slides, vendors, and other activities.

Okay.

That's great here.

And they also have the Culture Fest World Music and Arts Festival in Princeton, West Virginia.

Right.

They also have that.

So I don't know what you want to do with that. And there's also – they have a workshop and healing arts section to that which is a lot of yoga in the town square and uh things of that nature so get on in there and and do it and uh the entertainment in this area is bleak but if if applebee's is all you've got at night this is probably fucking amazing it's something you know what i mean it's this or applebee's.
Jesus Christ. Or shirtless guys playing slots.
Yeah. I guarantee you they play karaoke and fucking trivia night.
I'll bet Applebee's Monday through Friday. Every night there's something.
It has to be cranking. Otherwise, there's nothing else to do.
Crime rate in this town. What we are interested in here, property crime almost double the national average.
Oh, my God a lot. You guys really.
There's nobody here. Stop building.
And they're all criminals. Should stop building fancy railroad stations you don't need.
Use that for the jail. Jesus Christ.
Or the drug rehab centers or something. Honestly, Jesus.
And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about 50% higher than the national average.
It's dangerous as fuck. There's less than 6,000 people here.
What's going on? This should be a leave your doors open kind of town, and it is not at all leave your doors open. If you leave your doors open, you will wake up with your bed stolen out from under you under you it sounds like you'll wake up on the floor with your comforter and your pillow and your little sleep cap on go what the hell happened you might take your sleep those criminals are good jesus i didn't even hear uh so that said let's talk about some murder here because this is deep weird shit all right let's talk about a lady first lady first.
Mary Naomi Lewis, okay? She's born in 1943, Mary Naomi. She goes by Naomi.
Everyone calls her Naomi. The Mary she's not interested in at all.
Naomi's kind of a cooler name. It is, yeah.
You know, Mary is, especially if you grew up in 1943, half the girls were named Mary, so it's like. Yeah, but Mary's that like most important one in the Christian religion.
Yeah, and that's a pretty big one. But like Naomi sounds.
Yeah. She's like blonde.
Watts, Campbell. Naomi's a cool name.
She's like blonde and curvy and sexy too, everybody says. Like she's like 5'1", but has a rack on her, everyone talks about.
Like literally a guy described her as having a great, quote, a great rack. That's why that's why i said that was later on so that's the reason why it was put like that love that yeah uh shapely and attractive the newspaper described her as here no that's that's a naomi right there she looked in the mirror and said oh i'm fucking naomi this is crazy this this ass is too smoking to be Mary here.
So in 1972, she meets a man. Now, she seems to come from a half-decent background.
Her father owns a business, I know, and has employees and stuff like that. So she's not from some – this isn't the wild and wonderful whites of west virginia okay put it

that way she's pretty classy and later on we'll talk about another classy guy but first we'll

talk about a guy who's not classy at all um in 1972 she meets john elmer corprew jr corprew c-o-r-p-r-e-w

corprew okay john elmer jr yeah i'm calling him John Elmer for the rest of the episode because Elmer's, that's a good name. He's born in 1932, so he's about 11 years older than her.
He is described as, quote, balding, middle-aged, and not particularly handsome. a...
Me alone. Sounds like a great catch.

Wow.

Ouch.

Great catch there.

And she finds him apparently irresistible.

Really?

Absolutely.

She is working as his secretary.

Okay.

This guy?

Which is weird because the fact when we hear about his life,

the fact that he has a secretary at any point in his life is insane to me. Mind-blowing, huh?

Mind-blowing.

It's good to be a man in 1972, I guess.

I don't know.

That's all it is because he's got nothing to offer, this guy.

But he does have the fact that they've been continuously and enthusiastically in a sexual relationship since 1972 when she was his secretary at a frozen food business.

Wow.

Yeah.

So that's how they met.

Yeah.

All these Vandy camps got me worked up.

Man, nothing turns me on like fish sticks.

That's the thing.

That's all it is, man.

I'm telling you.

Those oh boy whatever potatoes there, the frozen, get me they drive me crazy yeah get me going really though the frozen food section you walk down they all everything looks pretty good i gotta stay out of the frozen food section man just i mean tumescence all the way through it i gotta i gotta move on there's very few things in though, that when they're done, when you've made them, they're all shit. They're all shit.
Except for like a Red Baron frozen pizza comes out wonderful. Outside of that, pieces of shit.
There's a lot of things in there that are pretty good. All the pizza things are fine.
Pizza rolls, great. You know what? Yeah.
Yeah. Everything else, piles of shit.
All those fries, the tater tots, all that stuff is shit. Garbage.
Comes out like garbage. Unless you air fry it just right.
Garbage. Yeah.
So he's also a diabetic and has all sorts of physical problems that he, really hot, right? Hot. God, he's just throwing dick at his secretary.
And she's loving it. And he puts all this on his military service.
He said he injured himself in military service. And I don't know if he was in Korea.
He was born in 32, so Korea would line up perfectly for him to be in any kind of combat situation. And I guess now he's on disability after the frozen food business.
He ends up being. So he's a balding middle-aged diabetic who's not particularly handsome and is living on disability.
Ouch. A catch.
A real. That's a catch right there.
How's he doing it? I don't know. Apparently, Naomi, as over the next few years that we'll talk about here, when she meets a man, she just keeps the relationship going with John Elmer here.
Does he play the guitar? Dude, this guy. It's amazing.
I don't know. He must be really funny or something.
I don't know what the fucking deal is, but she gives him all sorts of money, everything from money to get his driveway paved to buy a boat. This man has a boat.
I don't have a boat. She's buying concrete.
She's buying fucking floating vehicles. This is unbelievable.
This is crazy. Now, John Elmer's a high school graduate who did attend technical school, and he has to take medication daily for a nervous condition that he's been treated for at the va hospital so he also says he has to inject insulin daily because he's a diabetic as well yeah the only thing that solves his problems is eating pussy that's that's makes him feel so much better so he's an a balding middle-aged nervous conditioned man who's not particularly handsome and living on disability.

I'm adding up his stats.

Diabetes.

Wow.

And basically, they would meet up regularly for sex on various points along Route 460,

whatever motel, sometimes in the car.

That's because a couple years after they start hooking up, she gets married.

Really?

And just never stops having sex with John Elmer. She just ignores the fact that she's married.
Nice, right? This is good. She's married to David Cloud.
Cloud, just like a cloud in the sky. Some people call him Dave, but most people call him DB for some reason.
Uh-huh, like Cooper. Yeah, that's a middle initial is B.
So DB they call him. So DB Cloud.
He's born in 1926. So almost, he's 17 years older than her.
Mm-hmm. And he's a real wealthy guy.
Does real well for himself. That's, she found stability with this guy.
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about our safest sponsor, Simply Safe.
The days are getting longer. We got longer daylight hours, which means you might be spending more time away from your house, which gives burglars more time to rob your house.
That's what happens here. FBI crime data shows that break-ins are more likely during daylight hours than at night, actually, which you don't think of that.
But you need to protect your home with SimpliSafe's proactive security that helps stop threats before they even happen. We love SimpliSafe because, number one, they're great.
The alarms are great. The cameras are high quality.
I love the fact that they can tell somebody and yell at them to go away from your house and they can call the cops right and it's easy to install that was i was so worried when we first got i was like i'm not gonna know how to do this it's super easy they have installation if you need it but you can do it if we can do it you can do it visit simplysafe.com slash small to claim 50 off a new system with professional monitoring plan and get your first month free That's SimpliSafe, S-I-M-P-L-I-Safe.com slash small. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.
So now back to the show. If you're craving an unforgettable escape, it's time to set sail with Virgin Voyages, where luxury is always included and the ordinary is never invited.
From mouth-watering menus crafted by Michelin-starred chefs and next-level entertainment to unique fitness classes and ocean views that never quit. Everything's designed to wow without the extra fees.
Because why should amazing ever cost more? Need some relaxation? Your kid-free sanctuary is calling. Kick back on your private terrace in a hand-woven virgin red hammock and let the sea breeze do the rest.
And the adventures? They're epic. Cruise the Caribbean or set sail to new destinations in the British Isles, Iceland, and the Met.

Plus, Brilliant Lady is making waves in North America with new departures from New York, Miami, L.A., and Seattle.

Ready to escape the ordinary? Book now at virginvoyages.com or contact her travel advisor.

He's the vice president and general manager of Carter Machinery Company, which is a Salem-based company that has offices in West Virginia and a headquarter, I guess, in Roanoke that he goes to sometimes, too. And basically, Naomi marries DB for a couple of months.
the John Elmer relationship on the back burner and then just fires it right back up again like she's never got married

and continues along with it she's looking that old joke of find a find a woman that has a bunch of money and find a woman that that fucks great and never under any circumstances let them meet let them meet yeah yeah that's i think that's what she's doing. She figured it out.
Yeah. Wow.

She figured it out.

She's in the local newspaper all the time, photographed at social events.

She's like one of the queens of Princeton.

I mean, she ends up owning a beauty parlor here.

She's got her own shop.

She's a business owner.

Her husband's wealthy.

They live in a nice house.

They do much better than most of the people around here. So they're of like local royalty these people is the way it works um she uh is a member of the downtown merchants association and all that shit very kind of you know stable exemplary yeah yeah they're they're just you know i don't know how to put it but they're civic leaders too and all that kind of shit.
She also operates the Merle Norman

Cosmetics franchise in the area. So she got herself a cosmetics franchise as well.
She operates that, and she's also active in a lot of social events and things like that. Everybody knows her from around here.
I even found a newspaper article with her playing in some golf tournament it says there'll be 96 women golfers teeing off in the sixth annual finn castle women's golf championship tournament this morning on the finn castle course and they're playing 36 holes two rounds that's a lot yeah um so that's how that's going but she's in the group here so i mean i think that's one of the 1978 79 so i mean i really think this is like um a social thing obviously that's a 96 richest women in town are going to go there yeah late 70s early 80s the only people that played golf were yeah very the very mean, yeah. Nowadays, you have people that are regular guys that go out and pay way too much money to do something they'll never get good at because they can't afford to get good at.
You have to be rich to get good at golf. That's the problem.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the most frustrating fucking thing on the planet, too.
It's crazy. It's like hockey or something.
You have to have ice time to be good at hockey so it's it's one of those things you need the ice you need the course it's you can't just practice at home so that's the setup here okay that's everybody she's got a great life with db they do all sorts of shit you know on the surface and that everybody sees and she's in the newspaper and all that and And then she goes and bangs the ugly middle-aged balding diabetic with nervous, nervous issues who lives on disability. In a motel room off of Route 80 or whatever the fuck it was.
And gives her, it gives him like an envelope full of cash to get his roof fixed. You know what I mean? Like.
The gender roles are usually swapped here. Yeah.
This is unbelievable. This is really weird.
So January 26th, 1980, we're going to start with, okay? Just before midnight, as the Rolling Stones once said here. Okay.
They're out. They go to a party.
It's a dinner party. This is what rich people do.
Have you ever gone to a dinner party at the Sahara Club? No. I mean, you could have stopped at dinner parties.
Yep. I went and ate at someone's house a couple of times.
Wouldn't call it a dinner party, but, you know. I'd say I went to a Super Bowl party.
Yeah. They went to a dinner party at the Sahara Club in Bluefield, which is about 12 miles from where they live.
And they have a great night.

Such a great night. And when they get home

just before midnight,

he's still

holding

a glass of booze from

the event. He brought

a glass home with him. He brought a roadie.

He pocketed it, man.

Not even like a little bottle, a full

glass. Fucking tink, tink, tink.
Ice tinking around in there as they go over bumps and shit. So they're returning from this.
I assume, you know, a little intoxicated, the two of them. It's obviously dark in the yard, which is weird because they have floodlights that usually are motion censored.
Okay. So they're like, why the fuck aren't the lights coming on? This is stupid.
So they go around to the back door, which I guess is how they usually enter, which everybody's got a different way they get in their house. Yeah.
Some people front door, some people it's a side door. Some people just go through the fucking garage.
They never open their door. That's the other thing.
Yeah. My mother and stepfather, I don't think they opened their door for like 12 years.
It was all garage access.

They got to pop it and it's just dust falls around. Oh, it's wild.
Yeah. It just disintegrates in your hand.
So they're just about, he's got a glass in one hand, his keys in the other, and he's just about to put the key in the lock to open up the door. when out of a masked man according to a 12-gauge shotgun jumps out from the shadows oh boy and demands money from dave give me all your money weird place for a robbery weird place to get stuck up in your backyard it's not even like in town this is like rural outside of town so unexpected before dave can do anything he's standing there with a fucking scotch in one hand and a goddamn he's got a single malt in one hand and a house key in the other in the other yeah he's standing there this guy from point blank range just blasts him in the face with the 12 gauge.
Oh my god. lot of his head with it as you can imagine yeah that's that's brutal i mean right in the face from from you know from me to you from right now you know what i mean four feet away that's fucking insane okay um i guess this was just uh obviously loud there is spatter and brain matter and skull all over the fucking house, all over Naomi, who was right next to him when this happened.
This man, after that, shoots him and then just runs out, takes off, runs into the front. Got no money.
Didn't rob him ever. That's the thing.
So that's really weird.

Later on, they'll find out he's got $150 in his pocket. Which is

1980, $150 cash. That's a good amount of money.

It's a good haul. Didn't take anything

though. And very strange.
Give me

all your money. Boom.
Fuck it.

I'm running. Real weird.

It's not like Dave went for the gun

or said, fuck you, and threw the drink

at him or anything like that.

He just turned like, huh?

You're buzzed.

He's been at a cocktail party.

He's still got a drink.

What's going on now?

Boom.

That's all it was.

Now, this is obviously insane.

Cause of death is massive head loss, basically.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, yeah.

Half your head's missing.

Do I need to go into any more autopsy details?

I mean, it's, yeah, it's horrifying.

The Iceman said his head disappeared.

Yeah.

That's kind of what it is.

That's kind of what it is here, yeah.

A good portion of his head is all over the side of the house now and all over the lawn.

So at this moment, obviously, you know, Naomi calls 911.

Yeah. She's left unscathed, minus some extra viscera covering her.
She calls 911, cops, ambulance, everybody gets there. It's a crazy scene.
The whole neighborhood is cordoned off, everything like that. Now, when they canvas for witnesses, witnesses say they find multiple different witnesses, not just from the same household, that say they saw two men cruising in this neighborhood multiple times that night that that don't live there.
Just driving around, driving around. But the same guys in the same car multiple times cruising around the neighborhood.
So they're like, that might be a place to start, obviously, because they don't belong here and they weren't stopping at anyone's house or anything like that. So the cops right away are a little bit suspicious of this whole situation.
One, why would they, why would he, why would someone try to rob somebody, then shoot them and then not take the money and leave a living witness standing right next to them and not take her money either and even grab her purse on the way out you know what i mean nothing it's odd it's odd i mean robbery as a motive is a bizarre choice here yeah but also you might get a crackhead who got nervous and fucking pulled the trigger when he didn't mean to and then said oh shit and ran away and that happens too so i would make you panic if you didn't mean to hurt anybody yeah holy shit yeah shit, I shot Marvin in the face. It'd be a Pulp Fiction moment, you know? Yeah.
You weren't driving like a lunatic. You hit a bump.
I didn't hit no goddamn bump. So yeah, from the beginning they said it just didn't make any sense.
This is one of the county district attorneys said it just didn't fit the mold. Why would he be sitting in their backyard waiting for them to come home,

not knowing when they'd come home or who would be with them

or not knowing what they were carrying?

He could have come in home with his brand new gun he just got.

You know what I mean?

He won in a raffle at the dinner party.

You have no idea.

Or he could have been coming home with his friend who's the chief of police.

It wouldn't make any sense at all. Or they might have got home at 3 in the morning.
Is this guy going to take a nap back there? Or just being a West Virginian that probably carries a fucking sidearm. You know what I mean? You never know.
That's the other thing. Who the hell knows here? So they said Naomi, though, definitely appeared genuinely traumatized after this.
They said, which anybody should be. Unless they're a really sick sick fuck they would be traumatized by wearing a lot of their husband's brain matter on their fucking clothes they said she you know had never seen this type of thing before and um yeah she was described as grief stricken people said she was hysterical at times and everybody said it was you know very normal distress because right away you look at the spouse if you're at all suspicious of the whole thing you look at the spouse first and look at her reaction and if she's going oh boy that sucks and shrugging her shoulders you're like that's crazy you want to see some tears some horror some shaking trying to pick the head up and put humpty back together again something give me something here so yeah they said that it was obviously horrible so her family and friends rallied around her and things like that they asked where she was standing and she said standing right beside him so I mean while she was sobbing and everything else so this, they have the report of two men in a car driving around.
And that's pretty much all they have. That ain't enough.
They got nothing else. I mean, it's a shotgun pellet, so there's no way to trace anything there.
You just have a dead guy and a woman who says, I don't know, it was dark. I had a mask on, asked for money, shot him, and ran away.
I have no fucking idea. So we're at an impasse.
1982? Is that what it is? It's 1980. January 1980.
There's no physical evidence. We got nothing.
Yeah, you better see the motherfucker do it if you want anybody to get in trouble. So this leads to a nine-month investigation.
Oh, boy. And David Cloud has adult children.
This is his second marriage, obviously. He married a younger, attractive woman the second time here and had some kids from the first marriage.
So all of his kids are like, what the fuck here? You know what I mean? How can you not solve this in nine months? They put up a reward and everything like that. So they said the investigators, they piece together other things here.
They got to piece together these two. David's life, DB's life and Naomi's life, because that's the wife.
Piece it all together. And they started noticing that the marital circumstances weren't exactly like she was saying.
And everything everything wasn't what it looked like from the outside,

which is the most upstanding couple in town.

And everything's hunky-dory.

And they find out, except for the fact

that she's been banging this other guy for years.

So there's that.

And they find out about it, absolutely.

You dig into somebody's shit enough,

you're going to find out who they're having sex with.

And they also said $150 remained in his wallet which was in his pocket not a robbery so they said that was weird and um and they said the fact that she was completely unscathed yeah is odd also who kills one person not two so after a while they keep going over everything all of uh dave's all all of DB's office shit, just anyone he could have encountered that could have pissed off. Or someone would have thought he had a lot of something that they could steal or something like that.
So they found John Elmer's name written on his daily calendar in his office. Really? So John Corpru written down on there.
So basically they were going through his calendar, talking to every single person in his Rolodex, in his calendar. Yeah.
Anybody. Who knows? I mean, I can't hurt.
So John's got an appointment with him at some point? It's just written on his calendar. So they didn't know.
They're like, did they meet? Or was this just, did he just write it down because there was paper right there yeah or is he suspecting so investigating John Elmer they figure out that John and and Naomi have been having an affair here and they find out that there's been marital problems between Naomi and DB that nobody knew about except for those two and And that's gotten to the point where DB had begun his own investigation into

his wife's activities.

Oh,

shit.

Especially her telephone calls.

He had phone records pulled and he was investigating.

So police learn that John Elmer Corporeau's telephone and utilities were in

Naomi's name,

but not Naomi cloud,

Naomi Lewis.

She put it in her maiden name.

Oh,

Oh, ho, bill, dude. Unbelievable.
The telephone company revealed, records revealed that John and Naomi had been in touch very frequently between September of 89 and the day of the murder January 26, 1980. Corpru had made 10 calls to Naomi during that time frame.
She called him 41 times. Including 26 calls in January and 4 times on the day of the murder.
Okay. That's not good.
No. That looks bad.
That looks bad. Even if you had nothing to do with anything, it just looks bad.
Four times. You've been busy all night.
That day. What the fuck? That is weird.
That's absolutely weird. And they also figured out that as a result of David's death, Naomi receives not only some property that they had together, but also between $90,000 and $100,000 in insurance money, which is probably a half million dollars nowadays.
So now they're like, okay, we have all of this. We have a weird setting and a weird murder that happened, and we have all of these things, but these are all just like parts floating by themselves everywhere not connected to each other exactly there's a lot of pieces and a lot of dots not connected here someone needs to take a big crayon on that denny's menu and make a fucking start drawing the star make the moons over my hammy breakfast you know so make the eiffel tower please so they're they're got to put all this case together and they come up with a guy through a tip.
And we'll find out about this. But they make an arrest, actually, in the case.
They find a guy who we've never heard of to this point. His name is George Ballard Guthrie, the second.
So junior, another junior. George second could skip a generation generation but he's still named after somebody George Ballard Guthrie yeah the second he's born 1951 so he's the youngest of this lot of fucking luminaries that we've been discussing here folks he's described as a quote chronic misfit and self-described drug addict who lives in Roanoke, Virginia.
Okay. So that's who we're dealing with here.
A piece of shit here. Yeah.
So anyway, they hear that they need to talk to Guthrie, so they go to Virginia, the West Virginia officers, and accompanied by Virginia officers as well, they search for Guthrie and find him about 9.25 p.m. one night at a garage where he was doing body work on a car.
So the Virginia officers arrest him because it's Virginia and drove him some distance away to their headquarters in Salem, Virginia. Now, here's the thing.
Rather than taking him to the local Roanoke magistrate for whom they'd gotten the fugitive warrant for to get him. The magistrate was on call and they were aware that they would return to present Guthrie.
But the West Virginia trooper requested, hey, can we make a detour so I can question him before we go actually take him to the magistrate to do the proper legal things that we have to do. Because you have to bring him there, and then before you can take him to Virginia, that guy has to say, okay, he has to waive extradition.
It's the whole thing. So instead, here, Guthrie was read his Miranda rights in the police car, and then once again at police headquarters.
The trip to the police station took approximately 20 minutes, and they arrived at about 9.45 p.m. at the police station.
Guthrie was taken into a small office and they said he appeared normal at the time. Now, all of his friends and family who'd been around him said he definitely wasn't normal that day.
He was visibly intoxicated, couldn't stand up properly, had red and droopy eyes and was very shaky. Uh-oh.
Doing great is what that says. Yeah.
That says, please work on my fenders is what that says. Go ahead and bang that den out for me.
That man was just doing body work in that condition? He was doing body work, yeah. So the Virginia...
He's got a wavy fender. Yeah, I would say so.
He's going to go, It's perfect. Look at it.
Laser strength. Wow.
The Virginia policeman who was there, he left to get supplies to fingerprint and process Guthrie because apparently they didn't have fingerprinting supplies at the police station. So the Virginia, the West Virginia officer began questioning him.
He signed a written waiver and confessed by 1040. Wow.
Confessed that he was the trigger man in this whole thing. How did we get to him? We'll get to that.
We'll get to that. Okay.
Now, that's what's going on here. He says, yes, it's me.
I did it by 1040. That's over with, and he's taken before the magistrate in roanoke which they were supposed to do first okay now his older brother guthrie's older brother had driven from roanoke to salem police headquarters at the same time that guthrie went he demanded to see his brothers but they said that they would not interrupt the interrogation you're not his attorney and he's not demanding it so no so the brother was unable to speak to him until later on.
So he was like, shit. Now that same night, John Elmer is arrested in Virginia as well, but he's taken directly to a magistrate without being questioned.
So here is the allegation. They claim here that Naomi got her boyfriend, John Elmer, to hire this guy, Guthrie, to kill DB.

Oh.

Okay.

And they think it's for $2,500 because that's what Guthrie said he got it for.

$2,500.

Well, it's West Virginia, which, like I said, very low prices now.

And 1980. 1980 in West Virginia.
You could buy a house for that there. I'm not even fucking kidding you.
Yeah. You could probably buy a $2,500 house, considering there's a $10,000 house available right now.
Yeah. This is fucking 45 years ago.
So you could probably get a house there. Now, they also arrest Naomi here.
They said, yeah, we've got to arrest him here. They end up with they do that.
They go to arrest her. They say she received between $90,000 and $100,000, and she got all the benefits for this.
They indict her, but she never spends a night in jail.

Okay.

Okay.

Right when they indict her, they give her a bail of $50,000, which she immediately puts a property of hers up for.

A building she owns, an apartment building she owns in Princeton.

And away she goes.

So they let her leave.

She doesn't have to stay in jail, which is wild.

This is a murder conspiracy and they're like well i mean 50 grand is fine right that's missing a head and wow go on that's fucking wild so she then moves to huntington west virginia and gets a job selling cars at a car dealership. Is that right? Yeah.
She's a good salesman, by the way, from what I've heard, salesperson. And she moves in with another man now, a new boyfriend, Bernie Stanley, who used to work for her father, who she's known for years.
And we don't have any idea. She might have been having a relationship with this whole time as well.

Yeah.

Bernie, we can't get him to say shit.

So Bernie.

Yeah.

What about Elmer?

John Elmer's in jail sitting there.

He doesn't have bail money.

Okay.

He's in jail. They arrested John Elmer.

Yeah.

They took him right to the magistrate.

Remember they didn't take the sidetrack.

But this guy, I mean, she went immediately into moving in with this guy in Huntington. So I feel like this has been going on for quite a while, obviously.
He's aware of something. Yeah.
And she is, God knows how much other shit she's been getting into. So at the pretrial stuff for Guthrie, his pretrial stuff comes up first.
A full suppression hearing here heard now because they want he wants his

his uh confession suppressed yeah it's april 1981 his counsel moves to suppress his inculpatory statement because it was made after a delay in presentment to a magistrate and it was he they also said it wasn't voluntarily given because guthrie was too intoxicated to knowingly waive his rights. Trial court

ruled the confession admissible.

Oh boy. Yes.

So they said that the delay was not unreasonable or so lengthy that it justified the exclusion of the confession. It was like two hours from the time they got to the police station to the time that he saw the magistrates.
They go, that two hours isn't long enough to make it whatever whatever so he found that guthrie had been under the influence of speed and beer but was not so severely intoxicated that he was without capacity to know what he was doing when he confessed they're like listen what person roaming around virginia at night west virginia at 9 30 at night isn't under the influence of some speed or beer yeah we picked him up from work he's he's fine fine. Yeah, he's obviously shit-hammered.
So then they get John Elmer Corpru in there. Yeah.
So Guthrie is now clammed up, wants the confession tossed. He wants to say he's being framed is what he says.
So they get Corpru, and Corpru just absolutely spills his fucking guts like he has been wanting to go to a therapist for 20 years and finally got to yeah let me tell you about my dad yeah you know staring at the ghost of whoever he murdered for the last 20 years every night when he goes to sleep he's like i gotta tell i gotta tell i need this ghost to go away and the sweetheart deal he gets he did the right fucking thing here. So he said that the husband's death came up in a conversation in late summer 1979.
It's about a six-month thing that we built up to. He says, quote, we were seeing each other, calling each other on the telephone, and going to various motels and staying a while there, having dinner and like that and things okay just having an affair basically he said the first time that the murder was mentioned was in a quote motel in blacksburg she said that she would like to get somebody to kill her husband and i said well it startled me at first and i said you had better forget that that's a serious thing like listen we're fucking in motels and you're paving my driveway and everything but you know murder come on murder serious that's crazy i got a pretty easy life right now i'm fucking without effort or money i'm this is great serious.
This is we're booty calls. That's it.
Well, no, they said that they were going to get they were going to get married. They talked about her.
Oh, my God. So he said it was not too long after that, a week or 10 days at a motel.
I believe it was in Rich Creek, Virginia. She said she needed to find somebody to really get rid of him.
This time she really meant it. She asked me if I would help her.
And then he told her he would, quote, ask around, which sounds like I'll stall for a while while you still buy me shit and pay my phone bill. Yeah.
And fuck me. And hopefully you'll forget about this because that's the response you give a friend that's like, I'm moving.
Can you help me find somebody to sublet my apartment? Yeah. Yeah, I'll see what's going on.

I'll put it on Facebook or something.

I don't know.

So he also, John Elmer said they talked several times on the phone,

and she asked me each time had I contacted anybody.

She was not giving up.

Like this wasn't going away.

So I told her I had checked around about some pills that could cause him to have a heart attack or something. And we met and talked about that.
Okay. This is not the original plan, a shotgun murder in the backyard.
The original plan is maybe I can get a hold of some drugs. Yeah.
Yeah. That we can, you know, whatever.
So John Elmer says, though, Naomi feared what they would find in an autopsy and said, what if they find it? Who are they going to blame it on? They're going to blame it on me. That's crazy.
So she said, no good. Pills bad.
Not going to happen. OK.
They're not going to find a shotgun blast to the head in an autopsy. No, no.
But a masked man in the dark is a ghost, I guess they thought. It's much easier than, yeah, who's bought fucking cyanide in the past.
and who has access to his food shit like that you know so he says i was very much involved with her and she i guess she used her body to influence me on that he says she used her body yeah oh that's fucking hilarious she was buying me this and buying me that. She just said that we would go to Hawaii and places like that.

Yeah, the gender roles are real reversed here.

It's wild.

She also promised to marry him.

Like, she promised she would get him pregnant, too.

Yeah, I'll do this the rest of my life.

Yeah.

He said that DB Cloud worked occasionally in Roanoke, and after he contacted guthrie in november and discussed a price of twenty five hundred dollars with a five hundred dollar bonus too they said maybe a bonus if you get it done here and uh you know signing bonus you gotta have that yeah all murder good murderers need a signing bonus otherwise they'll sign with somebody. That's what happens.
So they considered Killing Cloud in Roanoke, but Corpru said that Guthrie didn't like that idea. So John Elmer Corpru said that on the day of the murder, he and Naomi had several conversations.
Quote, she had called and she said she thought tonight would be a good night to do it because they were going to dinner at some nightclub in Bluefield. He said they talked about how the murder would be done.
It was decided that it would occur outside the Princeton home, which that's the other thing, because then they changed their mind at one point and decide to do it inside. He said, quote, she said she would leave the keys under the milk box.
They still had a milk box. Look at that.
Isn't that cute? Got it delivered, yeah. Wow.
She said probably the best way to do it would be to unscrew the floodlights and wait for them to come home, and then he could commit the crime there, and for him to go into the house and ransack the house and wait upstairs for them, basically. Yeah.
Go in, ransack, I'll break off from him once we get in the house you shoot him and take the fuck off that's how it works or you get your boy to shoot him and that that unscrew the lights part is real fucking diabolical yeah yeah it's it's incriminating as fuck because they were out they were definitely yeah the lights were gone one of them was broken we'll talk about. They found one of the floodlights smashed and broken.
In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant starts firing at him.
And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.
Became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history.

I was meant to sow terror.

He's awoken the people to a true issue.

Listen to Law & Crimes Luigi

exclusively on Wondery Plus.

You can join Wondery Plus

on the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts.

In the early hours of December 4th, 2024,

CEO Brian Thompson stepped out

onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him.
We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world. And the suspect.
He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione. Became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history.
I was targeted, premeditated, admit to sow terror. I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi, produced by Law and Crime and Twist.
This is more than a true crime investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever.
He's awoken the people to a true issue. Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our health care system.

Listen to Law and Crimes Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus.

You can join Wondery Plus on the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him.
We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world. And the suspect.
He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione. Became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history.
I was targeted, premeditated, admit to sow terror. I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi, produced by Law and Crime and Twist.
This is more than a true crime investigation. We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever.
He's awoken the people to a true issue. Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our health care system.
Listen to Law and Crimes Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple podcasts.
OK, so Naomi called him again about 730 p.m. to tell him they were leaving the house to go to the dinner party.
So, you know, you got a few hours here. He said that Naomi contacted him before they went to the party.
So that was then. And that he said he took Guthrie to Princeton to wait for them to return to their home with, you know, with the shotgun and everything.
He said that he'd been to the house on several occasions and had no problems finding the house. He said, quote, it was getting a little after 11 then, so I let him out at the gate at the back of the house.
He took the gun and he went in the yard. I drove off approximately a block and a half, two blocks down to the next corner to the main drag.
He said it was not too long, approximately 20 minutes to 12 or something like that, that I saw Naomi and Dave turn in on college Avenue where they lived. It was not too many minutes that went by that George came back to get in the car and I had the door locked and he could not get in.
Finally, I unlocked the door and he got in and we drove off like it was nothing going on. It was Saturday night.

There was a lot of traffic and we just got back in the traffic and came back to Roanoke.

He said he never heard the gunshot.

There's some details that we'll get into that he left out there.

Certainly, yeah.

He said he never heard the gunshot.

He then said that they went to Roanoke.

They went to a bar and he gave Guthrie $40. Gas money.
$40 he gave him. Wow.
So John Elmer said the next morning, a relative of Naomi's called him and told him, quote, a prowler shot Dave and killed him, and they were in tears. And then Naomi got on the phone, and she was in tears.
I asked where David was, and she said they had taken him to Charleston for an autopsy. And he quotes Naomi as saying, quote, you ought to send some flowers and maybe come up.
Because he said that he had known DB because DB had loaned him money two or three times. Oh, okay.
And his wife on top of it. You better acknowledge this thing.
Fuck. John Elmer said he didn't go to the funeral, but he went to the house and he sent flowers.
So he did like the friend thing. He said he had occasional contact with Naomi after the shooting.
He said she told him she waited five minutes before she called the police after the shooting. Oh.
And said that she even reached down and felt for a pulse and she couldn't find any

what the fuck yeah dude that's cold she sat there with him for five minutes yeah wow he said then naomi delivered three thousand dollars in cash inside two children's hardback books oh boy all boy. All that fucking...
Dude. Indian in the cupboard shit? This is sleazy, man.
Some golden books. And they fucking...
This is ridiculous. She hollowed out a hatchet.
She hollowed out an Olivia for this. That's what she did.
Unbelievable. This is fucking wild um and she said that was about two weeks after he said that was about two weeks later and he said that was for the killing of her husband god so he spills it now there's some other bumbling that goes on here by the way that we'll talk about that happened which is hilarious because guthrie being a fucking a drug addict and a mess yeah could barely pull this off as we'll talk about he's a goddamn disaster it's a wonder he didn't shoot himself it really is like the fact that this came off is like a miracle it's wild so john elmer is offered a plea deal and he takes it really for saying all that shit now the prosecuting attorney during his plea arrangement hearing calls him quote a dirt bag in the first degree which is fucking hilarious objectively that's hilarious a dirt bag in the first degree i would have died if i was in the jury i would have went i would have died laughing.
I am changing my Instagram bio.

Dirtbag in the first fucking degree.

Everybody should.

That's great. That's amazing.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

First degree dirtbag.

They said his meticulously detailed sworn deposition, you know, throws everybody under the bus.

Yeah.

So they said that he embraced the role of a jilted sap who'd been cynically manipulated all along. Because that's what he says.
I was just some poor guy and she was using me for years for this. You don't understand.
She sucks it so great. She's my secretary.
She's my secretary. My secretary.
The plea bargain deal reduces John Elmer's accessory to murder charge to voluntary manslaughter. Which is nowhere near accessory to murder, by the way, and the, how the, how the lineup of felons.
That's wow. Um, that's insane.
Uh, he portrayed himself as a victim who'd been beguiled to act on Naomi's behalf as a, he's basically the lust made me do this. and the judge beguiled siren yeah so the and the judge actually is like been there buddy like i swear to god this judge you know it's not a female judge because he's like the judge totally buys everything he fucking says like man i get it a fine-ass woman make you do crazy things oh boy i'll tell you what i got a story for you i'll wait till after to hear it i'm gonna come and meet you ballast before you take him off to jail to bring him to my chambers we're gonna have a chit chat because we got a lot in common let me just say that right now i got a story for you bub wow he said he's only human that's what he said that's what john elmer said i'm only human this is what he said this is they asked him what he got to say for yourself he said quote she used her body i was under i guess her spell she just came on to me with her body and her promises that's got around this pirate ship of ground because of that siren.
Oh, my God. This is wild.
Unbelievable. She used her body.
When asked by the prosecution if his regular meetings with Naomi usually resulted in sex, they said that his response conveyed more nostalgia than remorse.

He sat there and was like, oh, let me tell you about this one time.

Boy, she got some lingerie and came out of the bathroom all sexy.

I never came that much.

I didn't know it was physically possible.

It was wild.

We needed a mop afterwards.

I had to go down to the office and talk about it.

I could have filled a two-liter bottle. Wow.
So he said, yeah, almost definitely. He said it was, you know, obviously.
He was like thinking, oh, man, taking deep breaths. So he also says that Naomi was the mastermind of the murder plot against her husband.
And it was Naomi who wanted him dead and said that the middleman who claimed he'd been, you know, I'm the middleman. I've been emotionally manipulated.
I, I believe that she would eventually marry me and you know, I was just doing what she wanted. Um, she said it was her that prompted me to research chemical agents that might induce David cloud to have a heart attack, which was one of the plot that was abandoned.
He said it was Naomi who settled on the ruse of an armed robbery gone wrong. And Naomi who told him she waited five minutes before calling the cops so she could check the pulse.
It was also Naomi that suggested that John, who'd known DB well enough to borrow money from him, send flowers and show condolences. It was all her idea.
It was also Naomi that provided him with $3,000 cash payment for Guthrie. And by the way, he didn't even give him the whole $3,000.
What? He fucking pocketed $500. He kept a subcontractor charge? Good.
Yeah. And Naomi thought the whole $3,000 was going to Guthrie, and Guthrie always said he thought he was getting 2,500 so that's pretty fucking special wow yeah so um he said all I did was purchase the ammunition get the gun load it for him give it to him and drive him there which is pretty much everything this guy just pulled the trigger you did everything else like everything even planning.
He said he sent Guthrie out to deactivate the home's outdoor floodlights and locate a set of keys. And listen to this.
Cornborough's not a moron either, this guy. He said that Guthrie couldn't manage to deactivate one of the floodlights, couldn't get them all off.
And he said he didn't want to go inside the house because there was dogs barking inside and he was afraid of dogs so he's like jesus fucking christ man why did i pick the wrong guy carper who's got to be saying i picked this jerk i have to basically pull the trigger for him essentially he can't even he can't even unscrew all the floodlights that's what a dipshit he is how many murderers does it take to unscrewhit he is. How many murderers does it take to unscrew a light bulb? Yeah.
How many Polish murderers does it take to unscrew one light bulb? No. So Guthrie then returned to the vehicle saying, yeah, I didn't get the floodlights out.
And he's like, well, you needed to. That's the point.
So Corpru said, take my cane and go smash it. My cane.
The guy's got a cane my cane he's got a cane so this is a ridiculous comedy of errors right here I mean imagine this this is a silly movie is what this is where you get back I couldn't smash you fucking idiot take my cane then so he goes on he said Corpro after he did he goes in there and he smashes the cane smashes the last floodlight with the canepro said, well, let's get the fuck out of here now in case somebody heard that shit glass break and everything else and calls the cops. Just exploded a floodlight.
So they drove around the neighborhood until it was evident that no cops were coming. That's why they kept being seen driving around the neighborhood.
Because they were just like, they just drove around for like a half hour just to see what happened. They weren't chasing shit.
They were waiting for the cops to arrive for the noise they just made. That's right.
So then they returned to the scene, and he said, go on. Now go on, get.
Do your thing. So, wow.
It's wild, by the way, that after this guy, okay, if I have hired a murderer, and it's all on me. I'm responsible for the murder.
Okay.

I got to get him ready.

I got to tell him the plan.

Naomi doesn't know Guthrie.

So I got to tell him the plan.

I got to get him a gun.

I got to get him shells.

I got to all this shit.

And this guy can't execute part fucking a of the plan.

Unscrew the floodlights.

I'm calling this off.

Yeah.

With this guy.

I'm going to never mind.

This is crazy.

Fuck this shit.

Give him 500 bucks and send him on his way. is ridiculous what are you doing yeah like honestly but he said nope let's plow through this here um he said that he cruised princeton on a circuitous route that would bring him back to the spot where he'd pick him up to flee the scene he said he never heard the shot he said when guthriehrie got in the car, Guthrie said, is it done? And Guthrie said, he'll never drink another drink.
Okay. That's what he told him.
So two weeks later, he gave the guy 2,500 bucks, pocketed 500 for himself. He said that neither Guthrie nor Naomi knew that he was pocketing the money on his own.
So, yeah, that's how it goes.

That's what he has to say here.

His sworn statement here,

they said that probably the thing that they came up with, too,

is they were like, if this is true,

Naomi was probably genuinely taken aback by the fact that this happened

way before she thought it was going to happen. She didn't think she'd have brain on her.
She was shocked. Yeah.
She didn't think she thought they'd go in the house. She'd go over here.
He'd go over there, get shot. And that would be that.
But instead, she said it was, I guess he said that she must have been surprised because the plan, as far as she knew, was to separate them. And they'd be upstairs waiting for him.
So as long as she stayed out of upstairs, she'd be fine. Interesting.
And they said, so you planned on marrying Naomi? And he said, yes, I did. So the judge then questions him a bit, too.
And, you know, he said, your statements indicate that you helped plan, cooperated, schemed, counseled, aided, abetted, all of this shit. Yeah.
These fucking people in the offense. Do you understand that? And he said, yes, sir, I do.
And he said he was even dressed in a suit, which is nice. You wouldn't expect that from these guys.
I wouldn't expect either of these people to have suits on. I expect them to come.
Is it torn up overalls or something like. Yeah.
This is ridiculous. No shirt on.
Oh, yeah. The shirt's part of these pants.
Well, yeah, this counts as a shirt. Covers my nipples, don't it? As long as there's away.
That's it. So the judge continued, it is not clear from the indictment whether you were present, but I take it from the wording of the indictment that you were not.
And he says that he quote in the same town in town, but not at the exact scene is what he says. So the judge pointed out that according to state law, a person who helps plan, scheme, counsel, all this shit, the crime is as guilty as if the plans go forward as if he were present.
Yeah. There you go.
When probed for the facts, which made him guilty, he told the judge, I aided her, I provided transportation for him to West Virginia. The defense attorney elaborated on the night of the shooting that he provided the transportation and they said, did you know and understand that George Guthrie was there for the purpose of murdering David McCloud?

He said, fuck, yes, I did.

The pussy was on my mind.

Of course I did.

I was thinking of other things.

So the sentencing, because he pleads guilty to voluntary manslaughter, he is sentenced to.

Wait, this is he got the gun, drove him there, planned it, basically did everything.

You, sir, may fuck off one to five years in prison. I relate, sir.
He's released after eight months. Get out of here.
Eight months in prison, he does, for murdering, basically, essentially. He fucking planned, executed, and did everything but pull the trigger trigger that's why crime's so high around here they don't punish anybody for it that's wild eight months are you kidding me holy shit that judge really had sympathy i get that they that's what i mean the judge was like i hear you buddy like i guess they really want to nail her and they really want to nail the trigger man i suppose so they're giving this guy a huge break unbelievable deal like rather than saying okay rather than first degree murder the second degree murder 20 years something like that they go all the way voluntary manslaughter you'll be out by christmas that's crazy conspiracy you were part of this a hundred percent how do you not get at least 30 of their of their sentence i mean so then the state makes an agreement with guthrie as well oh a plea agreement here but the trial court the judge refuses to accept the plea agreement that he makes with the prosecutor so this guy thought he was good and the judge is like fuck no he's the shooter that hell no nope and the judge has the right to not accept plea agreements that's part of it so he's going to trial guthrie and he is going to be presenting evidence of insanity that's what he's going to prevent present that's his swing now it's insanity and they should have thrown out the confession those are his two big deals here now the insanity defense is one of the jurors, by the way.
This is the vaudeer of the juror in the beginning of what the fuck they think about insanity. Because when insanity is on the table, you've got to ask a whole bunch of separate set of questions, like when the death penalty is going.
So they said, in general, do you believe that psychiatrists and psychologists can help people. Okay.
And the juror says no.

Oh, wow.

All righty.

Do you know any psychiatrists or psychologists?

No.

I was going to say, he probably said, yeah, my ex-wife.

But no.

They said, you say you don't in general think they can help people. Is that based on prior experience or just a feeling?

And he said, it's just general feelings.

I'm just ignorant.

That's all he said.

I've done my own research. I'm just an ignorant shit kicker kicker that's all that's what he might as well have said i get inklings from shit i see on tv and then make judgments based not on reality in fact you know how most do you ain't never heard the term psychologist yeah that's why if you can say it with a sarcastic tone i don't believe it i ain't believing it i heard it said sarcastic one too many times so they said do you think people who work in the mental health profession such as psychiatrists and psychologists might be weird or seem to be weird he said the answer is like i said i don't know any of them but from what i've read that's a stretch and from what i see on television there you go it looks to me like they have got as much problems as the people they talk to and it is two bothered people and yeah it is two bothered people getting together and talking over problems so you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about no you don't understand psychology is when you go talk to somebody with your same problems and y'all commiserate.
Yeah, just talk about it. No.
Idiot. He saw a movie where there was a psychiatrist and that's what happened.
And he said, well, that's what that is. And then moving on.
They said, is someone who is emotionally ill considered sick? And then he said, yes. Right.
Okay.

They said, can they help the way they are?

The answer is, well, I believe they could if they really had someone in the family, someone close to them to get them into a routine.

I believe in work myself.

And I think if you work hard and concentrate and keep your mind off things that bother you and do something else and see if that would help.

Next, right? Everybody. Hey, everybody out out there this is a message from james and jimmy you got some mental issues some problems you know you need help don't seek help just work harder that'll help you step one make your bed every morning step two have breakfast what's this fucking routine you're talking about he means if basically if you work so you work so hard that you're too tired to think about shit and that you're so depressed.
Yeah, if you don't have time to have problems, you ain't got problems. You ain't got no problems.
Wow. Okay.
This guy's great. That's who I want on my jury.
How about you? I mean, they better just send this fucker home, right? He's really open to different ideas and open to a to a lot here they said what's your opinion of someone claiming to be disabled on psychological or psychiatric grounds i guess first of all i ought to ask you do you think someone can be disabled for psychiatric or psychological reasons he said not really oh my god oh okay you've never met anyone paranoid schizophrenia or anything, apparently.

They said, is it possible to experience psychological pain?

And he said, I suppose so.

How fucking perfect is it in this person's life?

Apparently, everything's fine with this guy.

He just saw a movie once in Psychiatrists or Assholes.

They said, we thank you.

After this juror left the court's chambers, Guthrie's counsel moved to strike her because she indicated she had a prejudice.

I've got a thank you. After the jury left this juror left the court's chambers Guthrie's counsel moved to strike her because she indicated she had a prejudice against psychiatrists and that could not that they couldn't she couldn't accept any of their opinions and the court said nope she's good.
Oh my god. She's on the jury.
Oh my god that person can't. Yep they're on the jury.
In an insanity, you can't have that woman. Can't have a woman who doesn't believe that insanity exists.
Right. At all.
And that there are people that can help treat that. Yeah, it would be one thing if she said, yeah, I think a lot of people use that as an excuse criminally or something.
That's fine. I'm with you.
Yeah, you know, we can talk about that. But to say there's nobody who's not fine is fucking insane.
Yeah. So for his insanity evidence here, he presents lay and expert testimony.
So just friends of his that say he's a fucking cuckoo. And then also experts here who have degrees that say it, too.
They say not only does he have organic brain damage anyway oh boy smashed his head or something yeah but a long history of drug and alcohol abuse uh blackouts from substance abuse and had drug abuse mental disorders uh they found he is in with the within the normal range of intelligence which is shocking honestly um his experts were suggested subjected to cross-examination and, you, and they tried to equivocate the shit to a jury, basically, here. The state called one psychiatrist who answered two questions about Guthrie's mental state with simple yes and no answers.
He did not explain why or how he reached his conclusions that Guthrie had been capable of understanding and waiving his rights, and that Guthrie was not suffering from a defect or disease that made him incapable of understanding what he was doing or conforming his behavior to the law. They didn't ask him to explain or expand on it.
They just said Wow. Yes or no questions.
Yeah. Is he capable of understanding or waiving his rights? Yes.
Is he suffering from a disease that makes him incapable of understanding? No. That was it.
Thank you. No further questions.
Thanks for being here, Doc. Thanks a lot, Doc.
And then there's a woman just with her arms crossed shaking her head in the jury. Liar.
Fucking liar. What are your problems? Wow.
He just needs to work harder. Yeah.
Now, John Elmer's got to earn his eight months in jail here by testifying.

And he testifies during the three day trial that he helped plot the killing in hopes of marrying Naomi.

Exactly what we said. Guthrie claimed that he rejected John Elmer's attempt to hire him as a hitman and instead was framed.

He said, this guy came to me. His lawyer said, yeah, John Elmer came to him and he refused.

He said, I'm not doing that. But then once they did it they did it without him they said well let's just say it was him since we talked about him now yep we got that here um he uh goes on they ask they ask uh john elmer about his relationship with naomi and you know he said it started before the marriage and continued until just a few months after her husband's death.
He said, quote, I guess I was just I was under. I guess you'd call it her spell.
She just came on to me with her body. And he loves saying that.
He said that both trials. Then he said with her body and her promises.
Then he said, I was like a spider in a web. She was the spider and I was the web, and I couldn't get out.
I'm sorry this happened. I don't know if it means anything to anybody, but I'm sorry.
I'm just a little butterfly. I'm just a little tiny, little aphid just stuck up in here.
She wraps her beautiful, smooth silk around me. My dick gets hard, and I can't help anything that happens.
I'm just a little silkworm. Just a little old silkworm here.
Now, the verdict comes in, and they find Guthrie guilty of first-degree murder. Okay.
Sentencing. Here we go.
This is crazy. You, sir, may fuck off.
Life in prison, but there's a big but. Yeah.
With the eligibility for parole, do you know how long until he's eligible for parole? Oh, my God. 50 years.
10 years. Oh, wow.
That's it. Wow.
First degree murder could be out in 10 in west virginia i'm sure i'm surprised they didn't say uh you sir may fuck off to a wood chipper throw you down a coal mine throw you down an abandoned mine shaft or something yeah throw you into a wood chipper that that shoots your viscera into an abandoned mine shaft and then we're gonna have one of our shit local bands play underneath the the rain of a viscera and while it's happening we're all gonna dance to its raining men that's what's gonna happen well the juror that doesn't like psychotherapy pisses the remainder of you off the walls jesus christ so yeah that is 10 years yeah wow so now the the two guys are taken care of we got him and we got this one now the point of that is to now put her up for trial right she's gonna be in so much trouble okay so remember though she's being held up she was out on that fifty thousand dollar bond she put property up for and moved to huntington to sell cars at a chevy dealership wow like let me show you the new let me show you let me show you the new citation it's wonderful i'm trying to think of what shit cars were out 1980 fuck that was citation for cars no it was the worst time we've ever had for cars even corvette sucked come see the beretta yeah the beretta was later i think i'm going citation man i don't know what what would have been out in 1980 for chevy's cars i think it's a citation uh monte carlo i think probably he was out there have been a bunch of them you know she was slinging them though yeah uh so during this here um so she is being called Her case is being called here. It's 943 a.m.
and the state calls the state or they call the state of West Virginia against Mary Naomi Cloud. The state said the state is ready.
But then they approach the bench saying the defendant's not here. No, she's not here right now.
She is he showing the worst camaro ever she's busy showing a fucking 130 horsepower fucking z28 right now that's exactly what she's busy doing so they said that the hasn't defendant hasn't appeared yet the the judge says the trial date i guess guess the defense is asking for a continuance. And the judge says the trial date was set six weeks ago.
And he said, let's do the usual procedure when a defendant fails to report for trial. And the clerk called Naomi's name three times, saying, marry Naomi Cloud, report to court.
When she did not appear, the bailiff is ordered to search the courthouse for her. Wow.
And he was out of the courtroom for several minutes before he returned and announced, quote, she is not in the courthouse. We knew that.
We knew that. Thank you.
Bench warrant, yeah? So, yeah, well, that's the thing that's going on. At that orders a bond, considers the bond forfeited, and it tells the state to issue a bench warrant for arrest of her.
Yeah, this is May of 1982. And he said a warrant will be issued.
And, yeah, there were unconfirmed rumors circulating around the courtroom that Naomi had written her parents a note or a letter. However, the contents of that was never revealed to the media or it's not in the court records either.
But there was a big, big kerfuffle going on around there saying that. Does that mean they now own the property she put up? Well, let's talk about it.
No, that would be. Yeah, she forfeited the property, but she's a little slicker than that as we'll find out a spokesman for the huntington police department's detectives bureau

told the newspaper that he was contacted last week by her friend bernie stanley the guy she's with

yeah yeah uh her stanley's employer concerning a missing car but he said no warrant had been

obtained by the company and the officer indicated that stanley had been an employee there for about

Thank you. employer concerning a missing car but he said no warrant had been obtained by the company and the officer indicated that stanley had been an employee there for about six years now she's gone they go to her house they can't find her no one knows where the fuck she is she's she disappeared so did bernie he's gone too oh bernie they're ghost like the fuck out so oh boy yeah they put wanted posters up with a five thousand dollar reward i mean she's like billy the kid now yeah so that's fucking wild apparently fugitive she actual fugitive wait till you hear her nickname it's great all the newspapers use it it's fantastic uh she basically rounded up all her liquid assets and took the fuck off.
Wow. With a younger, in the newspaper, what's described as a younger, handsome male companion, Bernie D.
Stanley. Yeah.
So the prosecution believed that she probably took off well in advance of her court date, but they couldn't do anything about it because the court will do nothing until she's officially a no-show.

They're not going to say, oh, well, we can't arrest her for, we think she might not show up if you let her out on bail.

Six weeks at a bad start?

That's possibly, yeah.

They said she never spent a minute in jail yet for this, by the way.

Oh, my gosh.

She got processed and sent home.

Yep.

She didn't even forfeit the property bond she had to put up to secure her bail, and we'll find out why here. Wow.
They said, yeah, the prosecutor said that this was anticipated, but they couldn't take any official action until the judge opened the court at the assigned time, and it was officially recorded that she hadn't shown up. Wow.
Um, so apparently, um, what she did is she sold the building.

She. recorded that she hadn't shown up um so apparently um what she did is she sold the building she put up for bail before she left town ah so she's got the money for it already she's got the money and they don't have the property because it belongs to someone else now yeah so they're just fucked holding their dicks in their hand going maybe we have made it higher.
Maybe we should have put a lien on that property before we go. Maybe.
Something like that. Yeah.
So the judge orders the forfeit of the $50,000 bond, issues the bench warrant, does all that. They said there's no indication of where she might have gone from any of the prosecution or defense witnesses at the courthouse, but all persons involved in the case appeared to assume that she probably fled the state and possibly the country oh my god she's got some money it's 1980 82 at this point it's not like you know you can go anywhere you want so they said the prosecuting attorney told the newspaper immediately following the brief session of court uh that he and his staff will pursue this case quote to the limit and make every effort possible to have Cloud caught and returned to Fayette County to stand trial for the murder.
We will spend every tax dollar we have. Every tax dollar.
We will put aside the fancy oldie new railroad station. It'll make you all happy.
We'll put it aside for 25 years. Spend all this money.
That's this murdering bad woman. So all over the country now, there is articles everywhere.
She's on the front page all over the place. Really? Whole country known as, quote, the Fugitive Temptress.
Yeah. Which is absolutely the name of this episode.
Unbelievable. The Fugitive Temptress, which is fucking hilarious.
They describe her as 5'1 1⁄2", 105 pounds, and they put her social security number in the newspaper. What? 428-828-259.
It's in the newspaper. Anybody can find it.
I'll say it too. You can't do that nowadays, can you? No.
Jesus Christ. Are you kidding me? A thousand people would steal her identity in 12 seconds i mean they they pretty much called her murder horse why not pretty much yeah temptress fugitive hey murder skank come over here a minute we call her the slut of death nah that's no good what about fugitive temptress yeah that's better rightut of death is crazy to put on a headlight.
Can't put that. That's offensive.
Jesus. That's too amazing.
Wow. So there's no warns pending for her boyfriend somehow.
Yeah. I thought I would think aiding and abetting a fugitive, something like that.
Nope. Yeah, and it seems like if you catch him, you'll probably catch her.
That's the thing. He's described as a white male, 6'2", tall, weighing about 240 pounds with dark hair, about 40 years old.
Probably dumb. Probably dumb as fuck.
Wet dick, that's for sure. Bright pink, raw dick.
Raw dick, that we know about. so at the same time she sold that building, she also sold her downtown cosmetics business to her sister Sylvia as well.
Wow. Yeah, the state didn't know she was doing this, but she was liquidating and getting as much cash as she could fucking gather.
in July 18, 1981. She sold the building she'd put up for her bond to her brother and his wife,

aided by her lawyer, John Frazier,

who since that happened, had been appointed a circuit judge. Now, oh, my Frazier was accused in a lawsuit filed by the family of cloud of helping cloud sell the bill, helping Naomi sell the building when both knew it was being used for bond.
Frazier dropped out of the Cloud case after being appointed a judge and declined to discuss his former client. I don't want to talk about the shady shit I did before.
Now I'm upstanding. I'm not doing that anymore.
Family members and other Princeton residents who knew Naomi also refused to discuss the case. They said that Dave's will, DB's will, is still in probate, and they said a lot will depend on the outcome of the trial.
Because if she's found not guilty, she's going to get a whole shitload more than she would have if she isn't. Wow, she has apparently has a really high-powered lawyer after that.
Haddad is his last name. Nationally known lawyer from Louisville.
He told the newspaper that he was surprised at Naomi's decision to attempt to evade trial, quote, because she's been very strong throughout the time we've been working on all of this. She's full of shit, too.
They said, are you going to keep working with her now since she took off and made you look like kind of an asshole? You know, when you get on your face, man. Yeah.
When you say you beg for bail for a client, you're kind of vouching for them. You know what I mean? You say, I trust them.
And he said, oh, yes, I won't bail out on her now. Why do they do that? I won't bail out on her.
She got bailed out. Why do they always have people- They're always telling themselves.
Everyone does it, so- Why do we do it? It's got to be psychological, right? Oh, it has to be. It's in your mind already, so you mind already so you're just gonna say it yeah like I said it's like when we go on a you know something that we like we're on like live TV on the news in Chicago that time and it's 6am and neither of us have slept and they're like don't curse and we're like oh shit oh god damn it that's all I'm gonna go how you doing James fucking Petrigala here Petrigallo here.
Good to meet you. Oh, shit, I can't say that.
Give me a whistle. Fuck, it's early.
Fuck, it's early, right? You fuckers look good this morning. How's it going? I just can't help it at that point.
How fucking time did you guys wake up? This is ridiculous. Jesus Christ.
Balls, this is early. I'd suck a cock to go back to sleep.
Fuck, right? Wouldn't you? Come on. Back in the studio, huh? So, Stephen Cloud, who is DB's son, said that he suspected his stepmother wouldn't stick around for her trial, but he remains hopeful that she'll be recaptured.
I would think eventually, yeah. He said, I certainly hope so, but I don't know.
I think she'll end up paying in the end. And the prosecutor gives a, this is a really, this will make you feel better if you're a family member and you really want her caught.
He says that he's pretty confident that Naomi will be found, quote, one of these days. She's got to run out of money somehow.
Dude, look harder. What are you talking about one of these days? They said task of tracking down Naomi um it's just hard to do they can't find her they said where and there would be newspapers all over the place that would just have where's Naomi articles every once in a while where is she what's going on here and that will also her db cloud's kids basically they call the cops and the prosecutor's office every week.
Where's Naomi? You find her yet? What's going on?

You got any leads i'd like every fucking week which is what you kind of seems like you have to do this apparently somehow i can't believe it so um they said they failed to define her despite pursuing clues in many states and countries they're pursuing clues everywhere. So the authorities say in an effort to defraud the state, she sold the property that she claimed was her bond.
The prosecutor announced that his office investigation had revealed that an apartment house in Princeton was the property used for the bond. And in September of 1980, she sold that to her brother, sold her business to her sister.
And he said that he would take legal action to have the property turned back over to the state to meet the bond requirements. In the civil action, they said the deed between Mary Naomi Cloud and E.
Howard Hill and Betty Hill be set aside on the grounds the property was subjected to the bond and that the couple had condition reason to believe that the property was subject to bond it's hard though because they just go we didn't know yeah it's all through already like i don't know how you that's crazy it's a done deal they said that they're asking that the property be forfeited to the state of west virginia and sold at public auction along with that shitty house from the real estate report so 1984 1984, Guthrie has an appeal. She's still gone, by the way, two years later.
Oh, my God. 84.
He maintains his confession should have been suppressed because he was not promptly presented to a magistrate. And I was hammered.
Hammered. But instead was taken to police headquarters and interrogated.
He was arrested at 9.25.m. and taken before a magistrate at 1145.
So 220. That's how long that is.
His thesis is that the officers had probable cause to arrest the warrant founded on the indictment so that the pre-presentment interrogation was unnecessary, and the only reason he was not presented was to get him to confess. That's what that's what he's saying in these filings.
Now, Virginia's arrest and presentment statute and also is similar to West Virginia. Virginia's provide that the persons arrested under warrant shall be taken before a magistrate, quote, without unnecessary delay.
OK, which sounds like take you right there unless the car breaks down. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah.
Unnecessary delay doesn't mean we feel like interrogating him. Necessary to me means the car broke down.
There's a blizzard outside. Yeah.
Aliens are invading. Someone's getting their dick sucked by Naomi.
Something like that. There's a parade.
Whatever. Whatever it is.
Guthrie could have easily been presented to a magistrate. This is his filing.
Advised of his rights, informed of the charges, and his state of intoxication could have been assessed at that point. Now, the state says that we are not to apply our prompt presentment statue extraterritorially, and Virginia, applying her own law, would admit this confession.
Okay, so now you're talking about which state's law are we going to go with? Yeah. They said there is authority for the government's position but they said the court says they disagree.
This is not a question of extraterritorial application of our prompt presentment rule. We must decide whether a confession elicited under the facts in this case is admissible in our criminal courts.
Guthrie's not being tried in Virginia for his crime. He's being tried here.
So he also says the insanity thing. He said he offered evidence he was insane.
He argues that the state failed to rebut the evidence sufficiently because all they got was a yes and a no from their psychologist. And the jury said, good enough for me.
So they said that there exists in the trial of an accused a presumption of sanity. However, should the accused offer evidence that he was insane, the presumption of sanity disappears and the burden is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was sane at the time of the offense.
A lot of states, that's the opposite. Like Florida, it's your burden to show you're crazy, not theirs to show you're sane.
That's a totally different thing, which is a big difference, actually. Yeah, that's a lot of burden.
Yeah, it's a lot. So when the issue, that's why no one ever gets off on it.
When the issue of sanity has been fully developed at trial and it conclusively appears that the defendant was not criminally responsible at the time the crime was committed, the trial judge may in instance and instances must direct the verdict in favor of the defendant. Meaning before it even goes to the – they must throw that jury – the jury verdict out and do a directed verdict because they didn't take the facts into consideration.

So they said that in this case, the conflicting evidence adduced at trial forecloses the possibility that the evidence was conclusive of insanity, even if the appellate alleges in his psyche that a psychiatric experts were superior to the state psychiatric expert. defendant's position is that he produced sufficient evidence of insanity to repeal the original presumption of sanity and that the state's psychiatric expert.
Defendant's position is that he produced sufficient evidence of insanity to repeal the original

presumption of sanity and that the state's submission of two curt, unexplained answers

by its expert was equal to no rebuttal at all.

And therefore, as a matter of law, he must be found insane.

They also question whether the trial court erred in refusing to strike that juror who indicated that she didn't think that people or mental illness was real. That wacky bitch.
Yeah, that was fucking wild. Now the decision here.
The West Virginia police, they said, worked hard to find work, and the Virginia police worked together to arrest Guthrie. Virginia's only involvement was for fugitive warrant predicated on a crime committed in West Virginia.
At all times during the arrest, questioning, processing, and presentment, the Virginia officers were accompanied by our West Virginia authorities. Finally, the evidence is clear that Guthrie's delay was prompted by our officers and untimely interrogation was conducted by them.
Okay, now intoxication. Was Guthrie unable to give a voluntary confession? The trial court found that he had ingested speed and beer, but that he was capable of waiving his rights.
The troopers all testified he appeared normal, while his family and friends said the opposite. The trial judge heard the testimony and was in the best position to evaluate the credibility of the witnesses.

So that's basically they said our hands are off of this one.

The insanity the judge had the, you know, are the that thing, the the intoxication.

The judge would know best. So that's not on us.

The juror, they said, we cannot conclude that this juror was unable to render a verdict solely on the evidence and the court's charge. Therefore, the trial court did not err by refusing to strike her for cause, which is crazy.
Then they say the confession West Virginia officers may not avoid our state's rules about prompt presentment of arrestees and admissibility of confessions when they cross our borders to apprehend a fugitive criminal suspect. The tangential involvement of Virginia police in the arrest process in Guthrie's case did not obviate the requirement that our officers follow our laws.
We conclude Guthrie's confession was inadmissible, reversed and remanded. Oh boy.
New trial? New trial. Absolutely.
So November 1984, they do a new trial here.

And in the opening statements, the prosecutor says,

the first-degree murder case cries out for justice.

It was a contract killing here in this county for no reason other than

gained by Mrs. Cloud, gained by Corpru, and gained by Guthrie.

It was a senseless, brutal killing.

Defense says that his client had no part in the killing, and his confession is not admissible here, by the way. So, yeah, they got to prove that he was there.
Which, good luck. They have court proves, you know, they have John Elmer, but that's uncorroborated.
He said he said. Yeah.
Usually from a co-defendant or a co-criminal, you have to have corroboration for their shit. No, it's not.
So they said, you know, it's this guy who talked about getting rid of David Cloud in various ways and all this. Not my guy.
Right. They said Corpru is the one that he should be sitting right here.
So the defense attorney says that he intended or contends that his client had no part in the killing and that Corpru is the culprit. He said Naomi Cloud and Corpru had been lovers who schemed to get rid of David Cloud, you know, including ways, including poison before the shooting.
So they said that Guthrie, whose first degree murder trial ended today, as they go goes pretty quick. He claims that he rejected the offer again and that he's being framed.
Same thing as the first time. In closing arguments, they said that the prosecutor said that he plea bargained with Corpru because he's the sole link in the events involving the killing.
He said, I wish I was up here in front of you trying him to believe me. Yeah.
Scumbag. But got but gotta do what you gotta do.
In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant starts firing at him.
And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.
Became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. I was meant to sow terror.
He's awoken the people to a true issue. Listen to Law & Crimes Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus.
You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. You know those creepy stories that give you goosebumps? The ones that make you really question what's real? Well, what if I told you that some of the strangest, darkest, and most mysterious stories are not found in haunted houses or abandoned forests, but instead in hospital rooms and doctor's offices? Hi, I'm Mr.
Bollin, the host of Mr. Bollin's Medical Mysteries.
And each week on my podcast, you can expect to hear stories about bizarre illnesses no one can explain, miraculous recoveries that shouldn't have happened. And cases so baffling, they stumped even the best doctors.

So if you crave totally true and thoroughly twisted horror stories and mysteries,

Mr. Bollin's Medical Mysteries should be your new go-to weekly show.

Listen to Mr. Bollin's Medical Mysteries on the Wondery app

or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. So the defense lawyer said there are two guilty people, Naomi and Corpru, and George Guthrie is not the third.
No, he's the second. Verdict comes in.
He is found guilty of first-degree murder. Again.
Again. With mercy, though, again.
Okay. Okay.
Which leads him to be sentenced to you, sir, again. May fuck off.
Life in prison with eligibility of parole in 10 years. That's with mercy.
That's a lot of mercy. That's the most mercy I've ever heard of.
Ten years.

You shot a guy point blank in the face with a shotgun on purpose for monetary gain.

That is like the most clear cut first degree murder.

You're going to prison forever.

Shit I've ever heard in my life.

Cold blooded too.

Cold blooded as fuck. That's cold, dude.

Dark.

Yeah.

To sit there to break a light.

He sat there.

And waited.

With plenty of opportunity to go, what am I doing?

The fuck is wrong with me?

Never mind. Even when they came in, he could have just said, never mind, and stayed behind

a bush and not alerted them to

his presence and taken off. There's so

many ways to get out of this.

Body work to do. Well, you know what?

Sometimes you gotta fix that citation.

It's all on blocks.

1985. Okay.
naomi still missing uh-oh three years now it's been since she took off a twenty thousand dollar reward is being offered for information leading to her her arrest this reward is offered by uh cloud stepchildren one of them uh here uh talks about it and says that the reward is, they just hope that she's found. They'll give any amount of money they can to get her back here to be fucking put away, which they shouldn't have to put the reward up, I don't think.
Again, maybe if you had one less fucking fancy replica building of an old railroad station, you could put up a goddamn fucking reward for murder fugitives who have fled your state who you go hope we find her someday but we like the main street of yesteryear and we'd love to just replicate oh man makes people so much happier so that's 85 86 gone 87 oh my god all sorts of rewards and every once in a while, there's articles around, hey, where's this Naomi lady? What about that murdering trollop? Oh, man. So, April 23, 1988.
Kennewick, Washington. State.
State. The other side of the country.
Other side of the country. Near the Oregon border, I believe, as a matter of fact here.
Authorities get a tip in West Virginia that she is living in Kennewick, Washington. Wow.
So a former state trooper travels to Washington with state police sergeant Charles Blizzard, just like the Blizzard. That's fucking awesome.
For the arrest. I will arrest you like a blizzard.
You won't even see it. They receive a tip on where cloud could be found.

The information likely they said if they find her, that's going to they should be good for this reward that's been put up.

So the investigator said he basically went to Kennewick and flashed pictures from wanted posters to people all around the town.

And they said, oh, yeah, we know that lady. That's her.
We know her. So they staked her house out.
They arrived about 7.30 p.m. and no one was home.
So they said that Bernie Stanley arrived at about 8 p.m. Oh, she's still with him.
By himself. He walks in the house.
So they wait. They're like,'re like, fuck, maybe they broke up.
Maybe we don't know what happened. Then about 11.20 p.m., here comes Naomi.
There she is. Strutting on up the driveway.
She goes in the house. They wait.
For some reason, they don't arrest her outside. They wait until she goes in the house, and then I guess to coordinate a raid or whatever, but they don't even raid.
They just knock on the front door, and Bernie is talking to the cops. While Bernie's talking to the cops, she tries to run out the back door and take off.
Where the fuck's she going to go? And rocked right into police. It's better than a guy with a shotgun.
True, yeah. They gave her a better chance.
She gave her husband. Running like somebody after Chris Hansen says, have a seat.
Yeah. you think you're going lady there's cops out there i picture like lorraine brocco and goodfellas like cutting up bags of coke and dumping them in the toilet like shit like that freaking out so uh the the police the guy who arrested her said she looked totally shocked yeah she was very upset she didn't say a word to after we arrested her.
Just gave me the dirty look she used to give me before. Just giving dirty looks.
This shit's beneath me looks. Yeah, you can't fuck your way out of this one, lady.
I don't give a shit about your tits right now. They said that Stanley and Cloud apparently have been living in this home since July of the previous year of 87.
So they've been here for a while. Cloud was working and had a Washington's driver's license under the name Carol Donna Johnson.
Good God. By the way, you know what everyone called her? What? Donna.
She went by her middle name still, even on her driver's license. See the little things people give away? She didn't need to do that.
No, she could have been Donna Carroll. That's what I mean.
She made her fucking name up. It doesn't matter.
The cops said it was obvious she tried to disguise her appearance in a license picture, but when we arrested her, she looked the same. Anybody would have known her.
Same hair, same makeup. The only thing is she gained a little weight in the hips.
That is hilarious. She still puts makeup on from eight fucking years ago, and she's a little fat.
We'll just say right now a little outside the realm of what, you know, got a little doughy in the hind end. You know what I'm saying? But she looked just like she did last time I saw her during the six years on the run.
Where she been? What's she been doing? It's shocking. Okay.
She was alleged to have had a number of aliases on credit cards and other documents belonging to her. I don't know how she does all this but back then it was probably a lot easier.
Yeah, you just write a name in. You could also like fake documents.
Your license was paper for Christ's sake. No shit.
Yeah, they said that she went went by bonnie naomi bright mary naomi bright

bonnie naomi hancock mary naomi hill carol donna johnson mary naomi lewis which is her fucking

maiden name which is pretty stupid mary hill stanley which is her boyfriend's last name

and carol donna marie marie is a last name yeah okay, okay. Okay.
In one of her fucking lives, one of her fucking identities, she worked as a sales rep for a water softening firm, and her sales in the company ranked third nationally. Oh, my God.
She was living her life, dude. They weren't hiding, like, oh, God, looking out the window.
She's fucking selling things to people. Fixing your hard water for Christ's sake.
This is the third best person of it in the whole nation. So during her extradition, it became evident she'd become quite popular in her new area because when they go to extradite her and get her on the plane yeah 20 to 30 people show up to see her off the whole town shows up because they're so sad enjoy the flight holy shit yeah they said that she was they acted like she was a celebrity like and it wasn't like oh it's to gawk at her.
They had signs showing support for her. Unbelievable.

They had signs declaring their love and support for Donna, the cop said.

Donna doesn't exist, you guys.

She didn't even fucking exist.

He said they acted like she was a movie star or something.

They said there was 11 different people carrying signs and expressing their fucking support.

They waved and hugged goodbye to her.

And one said, we believe, or the sign said, we believe we believe in you we love you donna said one of the signs another said another just said be positive which is a really okay being extradited for murder there's not a lot of positive going on here be positive here uh even with everything here they said that she seemed relaxed as she waited with her boyfriend bernie who's gonna board the plane with her and go back even though he's not under arrest at all um cloud was dressed in a yellow sweater and slack she was accompanied by two law officers from west virginia but was not handcuffed they didn't even handcuff her what is they didn't they let her hang out at the airport talk to her friends hug people dude she's in custody for murder for fucking murder and they let her hang out at the airport, talk to her friends, hug people. Dude, she's in custody.
For murder. For fucking murder.
And they let her get on the plane with her boyfriend. They put her in first class, too? What the fuck is happening? Make sure to get her the headphones so the movie isn't away.
It's a private jet, James. This is crazy.
No, it's a United Express flight. Oh, really? A United Express flight to Seattle where they fucking then get a flight.
Yeah. To probably some other city to where they have to drive 12 hours to fucking West Virginia.
So, unhandcuffed. Wow.
One of her friends, Cindy Fenwick of Idaho, who identified herself as a friend of Donna, Naomi, whoever the fuck, said, quote, she's innocent. This is totally out of character for her.
This lady drove two hours to say goodbye at the airport. This lady said, she's that good of a friend to me.
You don't even know her. She's not even.
Wow. She's a very nice person and she was special to everyone she has been in contact with.
And this lady said, these people at the airport have only known her a couple months. That's how much she touches people.
We've heard how she touches people. Apparently, she's the best at it.
She's a good toucher. Wow.
So this lady said she met Naomi through business dealings in Denver, Colorado, but she wouldn't say what type of business she was in. She said that she lived with Cloud and Stanley in Denver for a short time.
Oh, boy. She said, and they took others in who are having hard times, too.
You think lay low, lay low, which is how they get caught, because there was a tip saying she lived here if she wasn't making friends with everybody no one would have spent any tips in so they said that um wow that's fucking wild um yeah uh they said some people here declined to comment one man at the airport went so far as to hide an insignia on his cap with tape and paper so no i guess it's probably where he worked or something. She, Stanley declined to talk to reporters as well, and he's not charged, but he had a seat booked on the same flight with her.
They boarded the plane together with one officer in front and one behind. Before she got on the plane, she turned to wave at her friends like...
See you next time. Yep, standing on the airport's outside observation deck with their signs.
Once the plane flew off, an unidentified boy said, she's gone. There she goes into the clouds.
Oh, man. She's a pigment of our imagination.
There she goes. Just a damn legend in this town.
It's a hero. That caught Meadows said, Bernie rode on the plane all the way out here on the same flight.
He made every change we did and got off the plane when we did in Roanoke. He met some of Naomi's family when we went home with them.
Wow. Can they do that? Still just like put a fugitive on your plane with you and not tell the whole fucking crew? I don't know.
It beats the shit out of me. I assume so.
You would hope they're handcuffed if they're murderers. But, you know, pretty obvious.
It seems like if they handcuff you to the fucking chair. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm going to handcuff you to the toilet back here.
Stanley's not arrested. The only West Virginia charges, auto theft that were placed against him when remember when they disappeared were dropped years ago for lack of anything.
So, yeah, they said they couldn't arrest Stanley for harboring a fugitive because the arrest was not in West Virginia, where if it was in West Virginia, then he's harboring. If it's somewhere else, it's not harboring.
That's wild. They said Meadows said Stanley made no attempt to evade authorities during the arrest.
He just talked to her. The cop said this is kind of a hard trip for her.
Yeah. It's time to go.
He said him and his fellow officer were trying to make her as comfortable as possible. Why? Why? Make her uncomfortable.
No. Can you get her something to drink? Absolutely not.
You don't get to recline your seat this whole trip.

No, you sit up straight.

We get headphones and watch the movie. You fucking watch it in silence.
The whole thing. No peanuts.
Nothing. Yeah.
Bullshit. So back in West Virginia here, they get back there and they get off the plane about 11 p.m.
on a Saturday night to be met

by a shitload of news media

and cameras and

several members of Naomi's family who hadn't seen her in six years. They said here the cop said there was a lot of tears and it was very emotional.
It was really emotional scene when they first saw her. I don't think they had seen her since she left.
He said that he anticipated news media coverage about this, but he said he didn't expect the mob of cameramen and reporters who greeted them. He said we went straight through the terminal to the car, but they followed us and some of the members of the family got upset.
There was a problem when one of her family members grabbed at a camera. This is just turned into a shit show.
He said they allowed cloud a few minutes with her elderly mother while at the airport. She is taken directly to a magistrate here to plead not guilty here at her hearing.
Stanley, like we said, not arrested, doing nothing. He was using the name of Robert D.
Johnson. I mean, if you're not doing anything illegal, why are you using a different name? That's the thing.
Yeah. She was formally charged, formally charged as a fugitive during a court hearing.
They set her bail at a bond at one hundred thousand dollars this time. And she doesn't have that now.
They said they asked that they had a prosecution ask. Can she be held without bond until there's a formal hearing on evidence? And they said that, you know, she fucking fled last time.
They said, we found her clear across the country using an assumed name with identification on her showing she used several aliases. And we have a judgment on her for 50,000 already.
So, you know, can we maybe keep her here? Now, the arrest came as a result of a telephone call to the cop. He he declined to release the name but he said that someone i had talked to knew that i knew and trusted he said the first call by the informant was made to the prosecuting attorney's office on monday april 18th when he was in roanoke he said there'd been no indication that any information on cloud the cloud case was forthcoming and that he was surprised because it's been six years.
He probably forgot about it by now. The informant asked a receptionist to speak with Meadows about the cloud case.
And when told he was out of town, the guy said that another call would be made later. The informant called back at 9.15 a.m.
and they told Meadows that he wanted the information. It could be revealed about where they were living that's the guy said this is what it's about and um they said the informant was reluctant at first meadows said and indicated the information would be revealed in a week i'll tell you in a week is what the guy person said so the cop said we we talked for about 45 minutes or an hour i didn't want to take a chance of waiting a week when i and fine and i finally got the information he said in the uh it the informant it was somebody i know and it was the first time we had ever gotten a street address in a town that was the reason why i was convinced it was a good tip because they had an actual address yeah so he and blizzard were unable to make the trip until thursday because they had to get airline tickets and the services of federal marshals to accompany them for the arrest a lot of arranging to do um yeah that's a lot and they said yeah the informant will probably get the reward so they indicated their defense indicates that uh they want the case resolved as promptly as possible let's get it going now you want to get it done

where were you six years ago when we wanted to get this done they said they asked for a date to be set soon because he will need a minimum of 60 days to locate witnesses in the eight-year-old case they said a number of key witnesses are from out of state necessitating sending out of state subpoenas we had a difficult time finding one witness for the last trial and he's the owner of the shotgun used.

Yeah.

They said that the past six years we've spent our time looking for her and have not kept up with the witnesses. It will take the state a minimum of 30 days to crank everything back up again.
This has been collecting dust on a shelf. We put this away.
Guthrie's already, he's almost on fucking parole already. The guy's corpus lived three lives since then he's got kids again fucking a man so the detective's reaction here is this is meadows said quote well she finally spent a night in jail i waited a long time for this yeah he said you don't know the nights i've laid awake trying to find out where she was it It's been a long time and it's a relief.
He said, we're relieved that we and the one of the kids of DB's kids said, we are relieved they finally found her. We always knew they would because we knew they never gave up on the case.
He said that because he kept badgering them. Not badgering, doing the the right thing he showed up with coffee and donuts was

like let's get to work always let's fucking do let's crank it up guys what do we do where are we going today and they're like huh what's that now good morning um now one of her attorneys um tells the court that a plea deal would be in her best interest because she fears a first degree murder conviction based solely on Corp.

Rue's testimony.

So the state agrees to a plea deal with. interest because she fears a first degree murder conviction based solely on Corp.
Rue's testimony.

So the state agrees to a plea deal with her.

Yeah.

For second degree murder.

Oh,

okay.

They made the plea to the judge.

They said in a low voice,

she made the plea barely audible to spectators,

including about 10 of her family members and friends and the victim's three

children and brother. Her lawyer then asked for probation she's been on the lam from a second degree murder there's no probation for that what are you talking about she liquidated all assets and ran and what from a murder charge this is crazy so the plea bargaining was arranged by her lawyers uh she still had the same lawyer.
He didn't back out on her. Christ, he was still six years later.
Frank Haddad is his name, Louisville. And yeah, she never takes the witness stand to have to tell her part.
They do not make her allocute shit. She just has to plead guilty.
Sentencing comes around. You, ma'am, may fuck off.
Five to 18 years years what is going on in west virginia what the fuck she was gone for six that's if she could get out and fight that's crazy that's fucking crazy this is why your crime is so high there's no penalty for fucking up i assume they've changed the to, right? They have to. Her attorneys asked that she be considered for probation after a background report's given to the court.
And they were like, I don't fucking think so. DB's daughter said, quote, it's my birthday and this is one of the best birthday presents I've ever had.
That's Sharon Cloud. She said that we've waited a long time.
It's been a long eight years. Holy shit.
They said it was great to finally hear her say guilty. His son, DB's son, who came all the way from Texas at a moment's notice, said it's been a long time and naturally we would have preferred it and it would have been nice to see her get first degree, but it was good to see her finally admit her guilt.
She can compose a plea any way she wants is where it is and has finally come. I don't know whether it's right or not, but who cares? And Sharon, the daughter, said, the worst of it is it will never be over.
Right. No.
so 1989 assets left from this are being sought now they're trying to get assets authorities tried to seize the building she put up and that was gone they said the 90 000 in insurance money also that's fucking god knows where so they said uh they planned to investigate to determine how much money she has they said we're going to find out if she has other assets and see if she has money in somebody else's name. We have a judgment against her for $50,000 plus $50 in costs and 10% interest every year since May 1982.
But as far as I know, she doesn't have any assets to collect. So there's that.
They said she expects the victim's children to pursue the money that she received after her husband's death, but she said, I don't think that she has much money now. Third best water softener salesman in the country has no money? Got fucking Ugats.
Wow. Which is surprising, right? Yeah.
There's no money in water softenersers who knew i said yeah if you're thinking about going into the water softener sales game evidently there's no money in it you maybe should not best and still be broke still be fucking poor as shit apparently it'd be a popper so yeah this is um trying to find this yeah she i believe she I don't know if this is her or not. I found an obituary for for someone who fits her name.
But I don't know if it's her or not, though. It's hard to tell.
So I'm not positive about that. Yeah, that's a that's a tough one.
So who knows? Well, but she definitely, everyone's out of prison. No one served too long a time for this.
Yeah? Is the age right? Not quite. Yes, but it's, I don't know if it's her, though.
It's one of those things. I can't be positive of it to say, yes, she's dead, or yes, she's not, or here's her Instagram.
I don't know. Because the one has an Instagram, so I'm not sure.
Really? Yeah. Now, like we've done before in West Virginia, because it's a wild style kind of place here, wanted to tell that first story and then tell a shorter story at the end here.
That is because that was, you know, West Virginia. But that was I mean, yeah, there was some fuckery and panhandlery going on here, but it was also like rich people and all this type of thing so i feel like some people might go man i didn't get like a real west virginia groundhog for breakfast panhandle kind of thing here so i got another case for you here that we'll run through real quick here from 1956 yeah mingo county 1956 mingo county.
Yeah. Known as bloody Mingo County.
Okay. Not good here.
This is Delorme. It's in Delorme, West Virginia.
D-E-L-O-R-M-E. Yeah.
Delorme or Delorme. One of the two.
Okay. This is in the middle of the afternoon, by the way.
We'll cut to this. 1956, October 19th, 1956, 4.30 in the afternoon, between 4 and 4.30 at what is called a beer tavern known as Don's Place.
Sounds great. okay um now the it's operated by noah ferrell who is the stepfather of the wife of the defendant

all right stepfather of the wife of the defendant.

All right.

Stepfather of his father-in-law.

All right.

It's a one-story building in which the tavern is operated locally about 25 feet from the edge of a road.

It's West Virginia, Route No. 49.

Oh, yeah.

And fronts on that highway.

The open space between the highway and the building extends along and beyond the front of the building for several feet in each direction. At the front entrance is a large single door, which, when open, swings inside the building, and the bottom of the door is several inches above the level of the area between the building and the highway.
Okay. So it sits up.
It's on a step base. It's elevated.

So, you know, floods don't come in when it rains.

Got it.

So we got it.

It's a big highway, big parking lot type space in the beginning here.

Outside the building and directly in front of the door is one concrete step of normal

height above the ground at the top of the step.

And the top above the ground and the top of the step is a few inches below the level of the door of the building and the bottom of the door. That's really OK.
There's a step. It's a step going into a door that has another small step.
That's all it is. Like most houses do a little step up inside the building is a large room where there which are several boots on one side, a service counter, and a bar on the opposite side of the booths.
You know, a bar. Yeah, a very small dive shit bar.
Yeah, in the middle of fucking Mingo County, West Virginia. It stinks in here.
Wow. So the early afternoon, like we said, between 4 and 4.30 on this date in 1956,de Fields enter Clyde Fields he is age 40 to 45 he's set at somewhere around there we don't know we don't keep good records around these parts and it's 1956 so he was born in you know 1910 or 1915 so they said he's about 5 10 about 155 pounds not a big guy yeah he limped noticeably because he has an artificial leg which will do that to you here and not great artificial legs in the mid-50s in western june either can't imagine dude a friend of mine has one now uh they're not that great now no but they're shitload better than this can't imagine it's this was just wood strapped to your body.
That's all that shit was. Yeah, wood with leather straps.
Foo, fucking brutal, man. Yeah, that's hard.
Probably dragging it around with you. Yeah.
It'd be difficult. So now this guy, Clyde Fields, is hanging out with Luther Daniels, who's a 19-year-old man.
So 45 and 19. Illegal.
Shouldn't be. Hanging out at 4 o'clock.
18 is the... I was going to say, it's probably too young.

It's 18 back then.

It didn't switch to 21 until the 80s.

Yeah, and even then, he's got

a tolerance. It's West Virginia.
He had a tolerance

long before then. Yeah, and I'm thinking

West Virginia back then is probably

going to Mexico, where they're like,

ID, that's cute. Yeah.

Sure. That's fun.

So yeah, he's 19. They sat together sat together visiting drinking beer and moonshine whiskey at two other taverns in the neighborhood of don's place before they came to don's place between three and four o'clock for the purpose of doing what drinking more beer what day of the week is this this i don't know what day of the week it is but is the middle of the fucking afternoon it is the third bar we've been to at 4 p.m wow they've been drinking for a while yeah 1940 no jobs between them okay um they had no money yeah which is when you go to bars to drink oh my god um this is crazy um and so the.
And so the guy who ends up the stepson of the owner here talks about – I got lost. Okay, yeah, stepson of the owner here of Don's Place, Noah Farrell's stepson here.
He decides he's going to step in. Hayes – what the fuck is this? Hayes? his haze i gotta find his last name here it's confusing because it's from an old document so i'm trying to like piece it together here so anyway this guy um they had no money and the guy and the stepson who helps his stepdad operate the tavern wouldn't give them beer on Not having it.
Not starting a tab and waiting for you to come back to pay it? No, absolutely not. Yeah, Luther Daniels asked for it.
They said no. Then Clyde Fields asked for it.
They said, I'm not letting you have beer either. Neither of you.
Not happening. They said both of them were intoxicated.
And trouble occurs between Daniels, who's the 19-year-old, Luther Daniels. A 19-year-old can't hold his moonshine.
Shocking. Is that? Is that? Wow.
That was crazy, right? So they're intoxicated, and Daniels starts some trouble with a customer named Artemis Mounts. Artemis? Artemis Mounts.
Oh, boy. Yeah.
Mounts what? So during the altercation between them, Fields, the 19-year-old, or no, yeah, Fields is Clyde Fields, the other guy. Yeah, the 45-year-old.
He steps up during all this and invites anyone here who wants to fight me, step the fuck up fight me right now he gives an open invitation to the whole bar to fight him taking all comers right now how drunk are you when you'll go i'll fight any fucking son of a bitch in this fucking bar right now that's uh that's a lot of courage yeah yeah liquid courage and uh and back then people armed in these. Like, now you can't be armed in there.
That's a felony in the first place. Either way, even if they're not armed, it's the middle of fucking West Virginia somewhere.
Someone's going to go, I'll take you up on that. Sure.
Why not? I haven't had a drink yet. Let's go.
Let's do it. I just got off work.
Fuck YouTube and up, too. So I just came out of a coal mine, for Christ's sake.
I'll whoop your ass. I'm pissed off and thirsty.
Let's go. Anyone who wants to engage in a fight with him to do so.
So that's fucking amazing. So they tell him, you both have to leave the fucking building.
Yeah. All right.
So Fields, Clyde, the older guy, he says, sure says sure leaves the room but remained outside

in the open space in front of the entrance

awaiting just in case yeah

Daniels refuses to leave

and tells the

owner and his stepson that

if he left

if you want me to leave you're going to have

to put me out of the fucking building to do it pal

throw me out

you're going to have to throw me out that's how this is going to work

here

so a fight ensues

Thank you. Put me out of the fucking building to do it, pal.
Throw me out. You're going to have to throw me out.
That's how this is going to work here. So a fight ensues between the stepson and Daniels.
Yeah. So he's a little younger.
He's more in his age range here. During which the stepson of the owner hits Daniels three or four times with a wooden nightstick.
He said, you want to get put out? I'll fucking put you out. Brought a weapon.
Yeah. One of the blows striking his head and ear.
Daniels was knocked to the floor. And while on the floor, he and the stepson here struggled to get a nightstick to fight over the nightstick.
So the stepson's on top of Daniels. And while both of them were on the floor so the stepson's on top of daniels and while both of them are on the floor uh-oh the stepson's bashes daniels in the head uh with a 32 caliber revolver there it is which he drew from his pocket uh-huh after being struck with the revolver daniels says all right i had enough literally i'll.
He is quoted as saying, I've had enough. Booze or beating? Which one? Yeah, both ways.
I've had enough of everything. So the fight between them ended, and Daniels either rose to his feet or was helped up to the floor by the stepson here and walked out without assistance.
And, you know, that was that. So he opens the door to the front entrance where the stepson pushed him through the doorways and get the fuck out of here now when he's pushed out Daniels bashes into Fields who was standing in front of the building there near the entrance and both of them fell down oh shit this is so drunk that imagine that you shove one drunk into another drunk and they both fall down yeah he hit a drunk with another drunk drunk and croquet now we're playing this is hilarious yeah drunk in lawn sports in the in the corner pocket I'm going to use the 19-year-old cue ball.

We'll put the 40-year-old in the corner pocket there. 19 into the 45, both on the ground.
Both on the ground. Boom.
Ah, look at me. I called it.
Holy shit. So they both fell down.
Daniels gets up and leaves the scene. But while walking away, he hears a gunshot.
And he turns around and he saw Fields and he saw him put his hand to his stomach and fall to the ground. Fields did, the 47-year-old.
Now, after Fields was knocked down, Daniels was pushed against him. I guess he had arose or either stood up on the ground in the front of the door or approached the door and attempted to enter the building.
But before he could get inside the building, the stepson who stood inside the rear door, inside the building near the door, fired one shot from the revolver. And that's what struck Fields in the region of his chest.
It passed entirely through his body, through and through, severing a main artery. Uh-oh.
And he dies pretty goddamn quick. He bleeds out there.
Sure. So, yeah, the testimony from internal hemorrhages, the testimony of witnesses produced by the state was to the effect that Fields didn't even participate in the fight between Daniels and the stepson the staff he left voluntarily and was just waiting for his friend outside so they said they're charging him with murder they're charging the the guy with murdering him yeah yeah he fucking shot him while he was outside not doing anything yeah good point yeah they said that fields made no threats and committed no hostile act against the defendant all he did was ask for beer they said no said, no, you guys got to leave.
And he left. Yeah.
Yeah. So he didn't do anything.
They said that while the defendant, I mean, this was after a fight, obviously. Yeah.
But then he left. Emotions are high.
Emotions are high. He did offer to fight anybody in the place.
Yeah. But then he left.
It was over. The threat was over.
This is why you can't have weapons with guns or with booze. This is the point.
They said that he made no hostile act against the bar owner or anything. So that while the defendant here, the stepson, was near the door with the revolver in his hand, Field swore at him and told the stepson that he was not scared of you or nothing you got and go ahead

and shoot.

And he said, all right, pow, and shot him. You can't do that.
You can't do that. You can't go, well, he asked for it.
That's not okay. He said to.
He said it's all right. So each of the five witnesses produced in behalf of the state who were on or near the tavern and observed fields testified that um he did not see a knife in his possession before or when the shooting occurred after fields was shot he did not go on to he didn't go to his assistants but told someone nearby to take care of fields then went from the door toward the rear of the room the stepson so the stepson shot him and then was like, someone help him.
Yeah, yeah. Bye.
Six witnesses, including the bar owner and the stepson and everybody, testified on his behalf. There's him.
There's Noah Farrell, who is the stepfather. Jesse Farrell, I guess that's the mother of the defendant.
And one other witness testified to the effect that on other occasions before the shooting occurred, there had been trouble between Fields and the defendant. And on each occasion, Fields made threats to kill him.
And that Fields has made several similar threats outside the presence of the defendant, which were communicated to him before he shot Fields that day. They said he would tell other people, I'm going to kill that son of a bitch.
So other than the testimony of some of the witnesses that Fields was attempting to attack the defendant and to enter the building for that purpose with a knife or some instrument when the defendant shot him, there's no evidence that Fields was armed with any weapon ever attempted to execute any threat made by him to injure or kill the defendant. He's just a drunk who was standing outside talking shit.
Mouthing off, yeah. They had to say he started coming toward the door with a knife.
That's why I shot him. That's just what they had to say.
You know what I mean? If you could just shoot mouthy drunks, holy fuck, there'd be a slaughterhouse in this country. Oh, I was a bouncer for a long time.
I would have a body count of 300 fucking people on me.

Every night.

Every fucking night.

Oh, this lippy bitch.

And this fucking big jacked up douchebag.

And this all he's forget about.

What do you mean this isn't dress code?

What are you talking about?

I'm fine.

Don't cut me off.

I'm fine.

That's bullshit.

What do you mean, Noah?

Athletic shorts?

Let me talk to the manager.

Let me talk to him.

I can't wear a hat in here.

Bullshit.

Hold on.

Let me talk to the manager.

Who do you think sent me here to throw you out?

Stupid.

He made the rules I'm enforcing right now. Yeah, I don't fucking care.

He said,

get that guy out of here.

We go,

all right,

time to go.

You're sure to say,

your pants say Adidas on them, man.

No, you can't be in here.

That was a sports bar.

You can wear anything you want.

Yeah, yeah.

Still,

still though.

Crunch fitness, sir.

It's mainly just drunk guys groping girls you have to throw them out for. What? I said she had pretty hair.
You said I'd like to taste your cunt. Get out.
Well, you had both hands on her ass. One on each cheek.
This is not okay. No, I said she had nice hair.
Oh my god. Oh shit.
So everybody also on the defense side testifies to the effect that Fields was in the room when the fight between Daniels and the stepson began, or while it was in progress, and that he threw a beer bottle at the defendant, which either grazed or struck him. Still, you can't shoot him 20 minutes later for that.
Yeah, he didn't have that beer bottle anymore. If he's throwing shitloads of him at you, maybe you're allowed to shoot him then but if he had like a a huge supply if he's got an arm full of them and just chucking maybe then but not later um so they said that fields while standing in the door during the fight called daniels to give the defendant a good one said yeah give it to him good you son of good, you son of a bitch, which again isn't a shooting-worthy offense.

Nope.

And also yelled to the defendant, I will kill you when this is over.

Uh-oh.

That is that when the defendant was standing near the door holding the revolver,

fields with a knife or some other instrument in his hand

was standing with one foot on top of the step in front of the door.

See why they described all that to you here?

In front of the door and the other foot in the doorway. They said that the defendant told Fields not to come in the place again and that he would shoot him if he did.
That Fields told the defendant that the defendant would not shoot him and that he didn't have enough guts to shoot him. You ain't got the guts't got the guts.
Yeah. What are you thinking? And that he called him a, quote, a vile name.
Okay. And that the defendant then shot Fields as he was attempting to enter the doorway.
When the defendant was asked why he shot Fields, he replied, I was scared. He was aimed to kill me.
Okay. And when asked why he did not run from Fields, he answered i had no place to run except run and uh run in where my family was because i got a gun i'm not running from shit running from shit and i'm not going to take him he's going to go and stab my mom now i guess he's trying to say so he also testified that when fields attempted to enter the doorway before he fired the shot that he had one hand on the door frame and struck at the – and said that Fields had one hand on the door frame and that Fields struck at me with a knife, which he had in his other hand.
Nobody else saw this knife except for him and his father and the other people in the bar. So Noah Farrell, the father, testified to the effect that while Fields was at the door, he had some kind of instrument in his hand.
But the witness could not say it was a knife. Eddie Dodson, who was in his automobile at a filling station near the tavern where he went with his wife and two children for the purpose of getting gas, produced in behalf of the defendant.
He testified that when he came to the filling station, he saw two men, one near the filling station, the other standing in the front entrance of the tavern. He said he heard cursing and loud talk and that one of the men was trying to get in the door and had one hand on one side of the door and that he was gouging at something in there with something.
That's very descriptive. Gouging at something in there with something.
Something. Wow.
That the witness then heard the shot but did not see who

fired it and that the man at the

door was shot. He jumped backward,

turned around, and sank to the ground

and that the witness then left

the station in his automobile and didn't

immediately make any report of the events to which

he's seen. He watched a guy be shot to

death and was like, back in the car, kids, let's go

and just took off.

That's awesome. Wow.

The defendant and some of the witnesses

who testified on behalf of the state as

Thank you. and was like, back in the car, kids, let's go, and just took off.
That's awesome. Wow.
The defendant and some of the witnesses who testified on behalf of the state as well as some of the witnesses who testified on behalf of the defense made and gave signed written statements concerning the matter in which the shooting occurred and what took place in the tavern before the shooting to a member of the Department of Public Safety who investigated the shooting shortly after it occurred.

Don't send homicide detectives or anything.

And these statements in some particulars differ from the testimony given at trial by each witness who signed a signed statement.

Can't do that.

During the argument of the case to the jury,

attorneys representing the state commented upon the failure of the defendant

to produce the knife at trial in support of their contention that Fields, when shot, didn't have a knife. They're like, where's the fucking knife then? Where's it at? Yeah.
If you shot him, he went down. I wouldn't, yeah.
Where'd it go? There should be a knife right there. Yeah.
They said, upon substantially the foregoing evidence, the jury found the defendant guilty of murder in the second degree. Okay.
and they they they uh they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they

they foregoing evidence the jury found the defendant guilty of murder in the second degree okay and uh they they uh rejected the contention that he was shot in self-defense and um yeah he's gonna get 20 years for that so he got 20 years you sir may fuck off he got 20 years in prison for a bar fight shooting i just love a bar fight where someone goes i'll fight anybody in this fucking play something about that really cracks me up and really makes me happy it's fascinating that that is what west virginia did to this man and this lady hired a man to murder yes five to 18 sent him to the tavern and this is like a legitimate i don't know sort of legitimate of it's not a conspiracy murder for hire, which is Jesus. So the on appeal here, they allege that after he was convicted of murder in the second degree, he learned that the knife possessed by Fields at the time of the shooting had been discovered in the possession of Julius Estep of Roseanne, Virginia.
and that Estep and Condi Stanley of Mohawk, West Virginia, were eyewitnesses and knew that the knife possessed by Fields was removed from the place on the ground where it had fallen after Fields was shot, that he didn't know Estep or Stanley, and that they were present at the scene of the shooting until after the trial had ended, and that he could not have discovered or learned of these new facts concerning the removal of the knife and the presence of these two men before or during the trial.

So basically new evidence is what he's saying here. So the statements in the affidavits of Julius Estep and Condi Stanley dated February 8, 1957, are to the effect that on the day of the murder, they were residents of Virginia and that Estep was then employed by Knox Creek Coal Company.

And when they made their affidavit, Stanley was hired by the Herbert Coal Company.

They said about 430 in the afternoon while traveling through West Virginia to their home in Virginia, they stopped at Delorme on the the side of West Virginia Route 49 opposite a tavern which they intended to visit to get beer. At that time, they noticed some trouble at the tavern, that they saw a man standing just outside the front door of the tavern, and then another man saw him lunge out the door, fall against the first man, knock him to the ground.
The man who had lunged out the door walked rapidly away from the front of the tavern toward the town of Delorme, and that the man who had been knocked down to his feet pulled a knife from a pocket in his pants. Oh, boy.
He then raved and cursed, waving the knife in his right hand, moved toward the door of the tavern, and at the time, another man appeared in the door of the tavern, holding a pistol in his right hand, and told the man with the knife not to come back in the tavern, that the man with the knife advanced to the steps of the tavern, grasped the door with his left hand. Everybody seems to get that part.
And had one foot on the door sill and thrust forward with the knife and that the man who held the gun backed away. That at the time there was a shot and the man with the knife staggered backwards from the doorstep to the road for a short distance, placed his left hand near his chest and stomach, slumped to the ground, and that as he fell, the knife in his right hand slipped from his fingers and dropped to the ground.
And that after the man fell to the ground, another man, who Estep knew as Fonzo Blankenship, F-O-N-S-O, F-O-N-S-O. Fonzo.
Hell yeah. Okay.

Blankenship ran from the door of the tavern to the man on the ground and leaned over him,

and that the man on the ground asked for water.

And the people who ran, people, witnesses here,

who ran across the road from the automobile to the place where the wounded man lay on the ground near the edge of the highway,

they thought he was intoxicated and not seriously or mortally wounded. They thought he was farting around.
Estep saw the knife on the ground about a foot and a half to two feet to the right of the man and almost opposite his waist. The knife was open and the blade was exposed.
Estep picked up the knife, closed it. It's a fuck.
Are you stupid? Touched it. He picked it up, closed it, and put it in his own pocket.
That's a nice knife. He stole it.
That's a nice knife you got there. You don't need this no more.
That ain't a knife. That's a nice buck knife.
I'll take it. Wow.
He said at the time, many people came in the front of the tavern and other people in the tavern came outside. They said they did not know the man who had been shot or the man who shot him they just stole knives yeah they said when people congregated in the front of the tavern at the affiance became apprehensive that there would be further shooting and fighting and for that reason they hurried back to the automobile and continued out of there but on the way they looked at the knife and talked about the shooting hey i just stole a major piece of evidence from a murder trial look at this isn't this nice wow picked it up at a murder scene and that estip uh estip took the knife to his home showed it to his wife and put it in a jar on top of the refrigerator in his dining room yeah and uh yeah he said the affiancs were not in the neighborhood of delorme after that day and did not know that the man who had been shot had died or that the defendant had been tried and convicted of murder until they were informed of those facts by somebody else in February of 1957.
And that's when they did these affidavits saying that. Yeah.
Here and the judge though in this, I mean, or the appeals court, pretty good piece of found evidence. Some idiot saying I stole the thing they say we don't believe that guy we don't know him no evidence he was even there or had a knife affirmed keep on keeping on wow and they send him back so wow justice in that one but the first one is a little sketchy we we heard about a knife heard tell and uh we't see it.
So I guess that's it. Can't see it right now.
Yeah, that's it. We need proof.
Didn't see it the first time, and I don't know this fella here saying he's got it. It's on a jar in his kitchen.
That ain't going to cut it. So there you go, everybody.
That's West Virginia. Yeah.
Just wanted to squeeze in a little crazy day at the bar at the end there because that is is just some wild. Virginia's a nutty ass place, man.
West Virginia. I mean, it's, it's yeah.
Every time it's different, man. Rules don't apply to them.
No, it is just different, dude. It's a whole, it's like this weird little pocket.
Like we've like, like a little, like, um, like, uh, like D something zone,. The desaturation zone where they're like, listen, we need coal from here.
Yeah. Y'all do whatever you want to each other or whatever the fuck's going on.
Just as long as the coal gets on the rail cars, we're all right. That's how it used to be there.
It's crazy. I don't know what's going on.
They're still recovering from that, basically. So there you go.
That is West Virginia. Hope you like that show.
If you did, you can tell the world about it by getting on whatever app you're on and giving us five stars and saying something lovely about us. It helps a lot.
We don't ask. We usually don't.
We don't ask for a lot. But that's something you definitely want to do.
It really, really helps the show a lot. Helps us drive up the charts.
And that kind of is how that's the currency of this business.

So that's how it works there.

Speaking of that,

of the currency of our business,

patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of your bonus

material.

And we have a ton of it.

Anybody $5 a month or above immediately upon subscription,

you're going to get hundreds of bonus episodes.

You've never heard popping right up.

And then you get new ones every other week to one crime in sports and one small town murder. And you just get it all.
You know, just take everything. Take it.
We walk out our pockets empty episodes falling out of everything we got. Take it all this week, which are going to get for crime and sports.
We are going to talk about the Kobe Bryant, Colorado incident here. Yeah.
I don't know what else to call it because we'll decide what we think about it. We have depositions and we have the court case.
And we're going to decide based on what everybody says, what we think, and who the hell knows. Because that kind of got pushed under the rug there.
Then for Small Town Murder, it is time again for Internet Salad. Here we go.
Which is where we're going to go around just whatever's online, whatever the stories are of the day. We're going to talk about them.
We're going to fuck around on the Internet and just just find stories. And it's a comedy show.
We're just going to it's to loosen everybody up. We've between any time, any time that we see that it's just political stuff going on and in either direction.
None of that shit matters. Just constant political stuff.
Whether you're happy with what's happening or shit pissed off about what's happening. Either way, it's just a lot of stress and it's a lot.
We're going to tell you what's out there, what's going on, without you having to see 50 political stories because there will be no politics in this whatsoever. This will be just shit that doesn't matter.
Yes, exactly. The first 20 minutes we're on the fucking microphones, this is what we do.
This is what we're bullshitting about before we hit the record button. You can find it and hang out with us and be just like before an episode.
I would suggest listening to that, then listening to a regular episode. It's just like you're here.
Why not? So that's patreon.com slash crime and sports. You also get a shout out, which we'll get to the shout outs in a second.
But I do want to say head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. Tickets for live shows are available.
And I'll tell you what, Pittsburgh, February 7th, you are the first show. Please buy the tickets because all the other shows are selling so much better than you.
Honestly. Columbus is sold out the next night.
It's been sold out for a week. In November, Portland is 99% sold out.
Seattle's close. Washington, Philly.
Those are getting sold out. Running out the door.
We just announced Madison like three days ago. It is gone just about.
It's getting sold out. Very the door we just announced madison like three days ago it is gone just about there's yeah there's all it's getting sold out very few left pittsburgh has more than a few left get your goddamn tickets pittsburgh get in there and come see us because we love it there and we like the crowds in pittsburgh that's why we go there when our agents go let's go here we go pittsburgh and they go really and we go yes we like it there they go all right if you like it And then they book us so don't make jerks out of us is what we're saying you're making us look dumb so get in there shut up and give me murder.com is where you get all that shit and more and uh also follow on social media at small town murder on instagram small town pod on facebook that said jimmy hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever, ever have a huge murder conspiracy against us and then disappear for six years and not even face the music.
Jimmy, hit me with that list right goddamn now. This was executive producer Gary Howard, Tyler Holmes, Matthew Britt, Vanessa Thompson, second place in the Fantasy League.
Wow. Cottage, Classic Docs.
I'm not sure what that is. I imagine if you Google it, you'll find out.
Jake Adronia, probably. It's a GNA.
I don't know. Adronia? Adragna.
It's Adronia, right? Yeah, probably. Yeah, yeah.
Gangsters moving silent. Gangsters like lasagna.
Like lasagna. Geez.
Yeah, all right. Peyton Meadows, other producers this week.
Peyton Meadows, Beth Bowie, Happy Hour in Midland, Texas. Back home, I think.
Janice Hill, Elizabeth Cracknell, Stacey Clement, Brea, Brea Weeks, D Money. That a kid.
Ellen Tork, Tork, T-O-R-K-E. That's Tork, right? Maybe it's Torky.
Who knows? Ryan Marlink. Kerry Keller.
DeMonte. Marley.
Jamie Gates. Tyler would know the last name.
Todd Labister. Joe Patterson.
Nicole G. Chris H.
Stephanie Robertson. Biscuits in the Bathroom.
Tori Merrill. Weird place for him.
David. Well, just stay in there because that's the safest place.
David DeMoss, Streets Rider.

Michael D., Maria Sherman, Morgan Prine, RVZ, Chad Roberts, Amy Bates, Maureen McLaughlin,

June Morris, Coopy with no last name, Dennis Verhoeven, Nathan Lippert, Matthew with no

last name, Rick Matthews, Jay with no last name, Moosh McKenzie, LT, the letters L and

T.

Probably not that one. Marion, Hawk, Rebecca Crutchfield.
Douglas McClurkin. Lily Fortenbaugh.
Leanne Hill. Susan Fletcher.
Alexis with no last name. Gabrielle Godoy.
Nick James. Nick James, not and.
Amy Oliver. Murr.
That's good. Burns.
God damn it. Nicole Williams.
Josephine Lancaster. Solene.
Solene Ditasigny. Ditasigny.
That's a long one. Ditasigny, right? I don't know.
There's no G. There is a G.
G-N-Y? Who the fuck knows? These silent Gs are killing us, people. Miranda Presnell.
Aaron Tara. Trey Horn.
Harry Trotter. Probably not, Sky Davis, Benjamin Patenode, Rebecca Ramey, Terry Stanley,

Betty Warren, Leslie Dixon, Dixon, Linda Morris,

Jacqueline D., Amanda Walkup, Denise Carter, Ella Kopech,

Angela Robinson, Karen with no last name, Natalie Lewis,

Oscar Walters, A- a l the letters a and l

the whole state of alabama or just a guy named al possibly maybe it's ai i don't know alan iverson's here for us good that's cool thanks alexandra uh shay jc jc chavez uh parker brown Aaron Walker

Bone eating snot

flower I don't know

Bone thugs guys

Bone thugs is behind us too See look at that we're doing great Yeah Fleshing Busy and bone eating snot flower Yeah that's the guy He's the one with the deep voice That's why you don't know his name because he doesn't have a lot lot of parts. But when they're in there, you notice him.
You know what I mean? He's the guy. All right.
Forrest Bear? Probably not. There's no way somebody named their kid Forrest when their last name is Bear.
I really hope so. That'd be amazing.
Brooks Crandall. Megan with no last name.
D-Lo. Dan W.
Joe Smart. Coy Cresta.
BBT. Yeah, right.
I don't know what that means. Patrick Rogers, Alyssa Liebilled.
Just Monica. She doesn't have a nickname.
Not Moe, not Mon, not Moni. It's just Monica.
No last name either. Forrest Wonderly, James.
I don't know if you name your kid Forrest if your last name is Wonderly. Madeline Dixon.
Britt with no last name. Eliza with no last name.
Sydney James. Stephanie Hooligan.
I think that is Miss... That's not her last name.
I think Apple corrected that. It's a hooligan.
Kayla Vinson. Doug with no last name.
Katie Lee. Chris with no last name.
Thomas Cross. Jessica Anderson.
Justin Shoemaker. Kyle C.
Sky Deceit, Callie Slaughter, James Kidd,

Philip Anderson, Mary V., Jen Mack, Shelby LaBevray,

Darrell with no last name, Trish, it might be LaBev, LaBev, LaBev.

Oh.

I don't know.

Trish with no last name, April Horn, Mary Kathleen, Vittoria Marchese,

Tonya Santos, Jason with no last name, Caitlin Batty's, Battles what is that, Batties? I think it's Battles. Davis, W, Jason Dock, Noize, Kara M, Andre Gross, Kevin with no last name, Sean LaMontagne, Scott Michalski, what, Michalski? I don't know.
Michalski.

Thomas Dunn.

Tom Scott.

Rebel Marie.

Leah Barber.

Dominic Anaya.

Aaron Stewart.

Yep.

Crystal Goodrich.

Athenia.

Awesome.

Mary Jividen.

Trisha Hall.

Jennifer Brock.

Nope, that's just Bach.

Sarah.

What is that?

Kershik? Kershik? No fucking way. Grimm, Bill Giedemann Ryan Flickinger Daniel Davidson Chally would know last name Ron Key would know last name Larry Denman, Jane Hamlin Jenny Lien, Tracy Baldwin Matt Turner, Jamie Cutton Dana Cox and Melinda, Brianna Freeman, Nichelle Butthead, Fletcher, Chris Reagan, Sophia Weeks, Sophie Weeks, Stephanie Leopold, Krista with no last name, Leslie Harper, Stephanie Osterlin, Christy Stevens, Heidi Shingleton, Tia, Tia Ivinoni, fuck if I know, Emily, Emily, Amal, Riffle, Rifle, Riffle, Jordan Grant Gamble, Julie Myers, Liz Chandler, Deandra Duhart, Sherry Weston, Amber with no last name, Beth with no last name, Cody Luce, La Britta, La Britta Roja, Luber, Luber, Luber, Luber, Chichita, Amanda Kay, Daryl Abbott, and all of our patrons.
You guys are the fucking best. Thank you so much, everybody.
From the bottom of our hearts, we cannot thank you enough for all that you do for us. We just really, really appreciate you.
Thanks for everything and especially your money on Patreon. You keep the show at a place where we always can do what we want to do.
Yeah, you make it viable because we're beholden to nobody.

We're beholden to you guys, so that's what's great about this show and what we

love about the show, and we hope that's what you love about it

too. So keep hanging out with us.
You want to follow

us on social media, shutupandgivememurder.com,

drop down menu, take anywhere you

want to go in the small town murder,

your stupid opinions, crime, and sports world.

That said, until next week,

everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye.
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery dot com slash survey.

Are you captivated by the dark and mysterious world of true crime?

Wondery Plus offers you the ultimate true crime experience with early access to new episodes, exclusive content, and a seamless ad-free listening journey. With Wondery Plus, you'll get access to hundreds of podcasts, including more than 50 true crime series like Dr.
Death, the shocking true story of a trusted surgeon who brought unimaginable pain and suffering to his patients. This was not an operation that was performed.
This was attempted murder. And there's Morbid, the hit podcast that's a lighthearted nightmare.
With Wondery Plus, you get access to exclusive bonus content too, allowing you to dive deeper into the cases you love, like in Suspect, where an ordinary Halloween party turned into a terrifying murder mystery that left its mark on the community. This case is one of those roller coaster rides where it's like, no, he did it for sure.
No, for sure he did it. Each story is crafted to keep you enthralled, revealing the complexities and motivations behind every crime.
Subscribe to Wondery Plus on the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify today.

Unlock the door to a world of true crime

like never before.

With Wondery Plus,

the best true crime stories

are always at your fingertips.