#553 - Dreaming Of Murder - Oak Park, Illinois

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Hi, this is Steve Buscemi. You know, the actor.
Well, now I'm an actor and podcast host. From piece of work entertainment and campsite media in association with Olivections, comes Big Time, an Apple original podcast.

Each episode follows the story of one misfit with big dreams who isn't afraid to bend a few rules or take a shortcut to get there. Well, who steals bees? I was duped.
I shoot you in the leg. This is Big Time.
Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. This week in Oak Park, Illinois, a vicious murder in a woman's apartment leaves detectives without many clues until a man comes forward saying he had a very detailed dream about the attack.

A little too detailed.

Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Yay!

Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed.

My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host.

I'm Jimmy Wissman.

Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another insane edition of Small Town Murder. And I'll tell you, it's so wild today.
This is crazy. You're going to hear this episode, and the whys are going to take over.
Why would this person do that? Then why would this happen from that? It's just ridiculous. This whole case is crazy.
Wild stuff. Before we get to that, definitely had to shut up and give me murder dot com.
As you're listening to this right now, if you're not listening, the second it comes out on early release to tour dates for 2025 might be out right now. So they could be out.
Sure. Get in there.
And if you're listening early, early early like right when it comes out on early release

still a few tickets left for boston new york is sold out and boston's almost there so should be sold out when you get there so that is excellent thank you guys for doing that thank you for a great year of touring and coming out and selling out like every show thank you we just can't tell you how much we appreciate that shut up and give me murder.com also listen to crime and sports and also listen to your stupid opinions. Hilarious stuff.
Make your Mondays better. Do that.
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Patreon dot com slash crime in sports. P.A.T.R.E.O.N.
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Hundreds of back bonus episodes immediately upon subscription. And then new ones every other week, and they're fun.
This week is no exception, which you're going to get this week. You get one crime in sports, one small-town murder every other week, and you get them all, baby.
That's right. For crime in Sports, we are going to do kind of a part two of terrible sports songs.
Team songs and, you know, football players thinking they're rappers. It's hilarious.
Listen to it with us, would you? It's so good. We're going to play the music and laugh at it and make fun of everybody.
So it's good stuff. Then for Small Town Murder, we are going to talk about remote viewing finally.
You bet. We'll get into that.
You think somebody can concentrate hard enough to see inside a cave 2,000 miles away? Well, they do. The CIA for a long time thought that you could, so we'll talk all about that.
It's remote viewings for Small Town Murder. Patreon.com slash crime in sports and you get a shout out at the end of the show, of course, because damn it we want to tell you how much we appreciate you.
We love you, god damn it. That said, disclaimer time.
Hey, everybody, it's a comedy show. You know, we're comedians.
We're going to make jokes. Unfortunately, though, the story is completely real.
All the stories are as real as they get. Unfortunately, far too real.
Nothing is embellished for comedic effect because we don't have to embellish anything for comedic effect. The stories are insane.
So there you go. None of that stuff here.
See, what you do, you say, how do you mix true crime and comedy together? Tastefully. That's how you do it.
That's it. What you do is you never make fun of the victim or the victim's family.
Why, James? Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags.
That's how that goes real easy to do so if that sounds good to you you're gonna hear just a crazy story if you think true crime and comedy should never ever ever mix then i don't know what to tell you maybe you're in the wrong place you clicked on a weird thing give it a shot and you might it might not be as bad as you think you may not know yeah hey guys small town murder it's not as bad as you think that's may not know. Yeah.
Hey, guys, small town murder. It's not as bad as you think.
That's our new. It's not that bad.
It's our new slogan. But if you don't, you know, maybe no complaining later.
That said. But for the rest of you who want to hear a crazy story told in a wild way, I think it's time, everybody, to clear the lungs.
What do you say here? Arms to the sky. Let's all shout.
Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.
Let's go on a trip, shall we? We have to. All right.
We're going to Illinois this week. Yeah.
And normally what we've been doing, and I don't even know if anyone on earth notices this besides me, but normally we do a regular episode lengthwise, and then six months later, we do an express of that state is how we do it. But this one, we did a regular Illinois and now we're going to do another regular Illinois because it's a crazy story and God damn it, I feel like it.
And that's what we're doing. So we're going to give you the best story we can give you.
And that's what this is here. This is Oak Park, Illinois, which is a Chicago suburb.
Of course. That's what this is here this is oak park illinois which is a chicago suburb of course that's what it is everything is a chicago pretty much everything just north of st louis is a chicago suburb fucking fascinating how big that city how sprawling that shit is yeah don't tell the people about midway down illinois and south of there that they're a chicago suburb though they don't like like that very much.
They think they're Arkansas, which is really weird. No, that works.
It's about 20 minutes outside of Chicago, about an hour to Libertyville, Illinois, our last Illinois episode, which was Murder Mansion Mystery, which was a crazy episode. I do remember that.
This is in Cook County, just like Chicago. Area code 708.
And the the motto here this is great stuff chicago's fun next door neighbors chicago but if you picture like if if these cities are houses yeah chicago's got a party going on all the time with like strobe lights in the window and music and a keg coming through the front window this is where the real fun is is, Jake. Yeah, and they're like, we're the fun neighbors.
We're where you go when you're pissed at your wife. We don't complain when people throw up in our front yard.
That's what that is. Come help us change the oil on our Nova.
We'll have a beer. Come on over.
I'll order pizza if it takes long enough. I make a hell of a nachos.
Come on. A little bit of history of this town used to be part of Cicero, the town of Cicero.
Oh, this town was in the originally in the eighteen hundreds. The population in this area really boomed in the eighteen seventies with Chicago people resettling in Cicero because Chicago burned down in 1871.
Great Chicago fire. As we know, most of this country.
The Great Fire. The Great Fire.
From 1870 to about 1910, 85% of the country burned down, it seems like. Everybody was just roasting weenies.
Holy shit here. Weird history of alcohol prohibition in this town, which is weird.
The Midwest just, yeah. But not outside of Chicago.
Like in Arkansas, there's dry counties. You know what I mean? Like that's second Arkansas rip today.
That was what Al Capone was running though, wasn't it? Yeah, but that was during prohibition of the entire country, not just here. I mean, I assume he just would have stayed out of Oak Park if he would, you know, if you want to run booze.
So when the village was incorporated, no alcohol was allowed to be sold within the village limits. And this wasn't relaxed until 1973.
God damn. A little late.
Yeah, post-Woodstock. You still couldn't drink.
Decades of this. That was when restaurants and hotels were finally allowed to serve alcohol with meals.

That's the only time you could get it.

You couldn't take it home.

No liquor stores.

So you could have wine with your steak.

But you could have a glass of wine with your steak, yeah.

Then in 2002, they loosened it up a little bit more with select grocery stores receiving governmental permission to sell packaged liquor.

This is not 1935.

This is ridiculous.

Get your shit together and sell beer.

Fucking weirdos. Figure it out.

Good God. Today, beer and wine is easily accessible, and they have a lot of bars and shit like that, too.
So they've got with the program. Reviews of this town.
Here we go. Four stars.
Oak Park is truly a lovely suburb of Chicago. It only takes 20 minutes to get to the lakefront from downtown.
It's a great town with good food, great school system and and this is all caps amazing library system okay wow i never heard anyone so enthusiastic about a library system before books 20 minutes away from the lake not bad you food books schools three stars there isn't a lot for people to do except go downtown or to chicago or smoke weed somewhere. Well, those all sound like fine options.
There isn't a lot for people to do except go downtown or to chicago or smoke weed somewhere well those all sound like fine options there isn't a lot to do except these three things that are great to do i don't get this fun ass weekend i'm about to describe what the fuck go downtown go out to eat go to chicago which is fun or just smoke weed somewhere again you just gave that's like my options this weekend except without chicago Chicago. Is this the south of the city or was that what you said? It's west.
West of the city? It's a little west of the city, yeah. One star here, finally.
Genuinely the worst place I have ever lived. Perfect.
The people are inconsiderate to the point that they're sometimes downright creepy. Inconsiderate and creepy are two very different things, by the way.
So inconsiderate they're creepy? They're creepy? I don't consider leering inconsiderate. That's creepy.
Those aren't the same things. So inconsiderate.
Counted my wrinkles in my butthole. It's real weird.
Constant stares when I leave the house. Walking directly behind me, about two feet or so, when when no one else is around they let their dogs run up and jump all over you even though they've never met you oh friendly dogs run up and jump oh you sound like you're hot as shit good for you say people are staring at you and let i would love a place where friendly dogs jump all over you that sounds like a great town i.
I'll live there. A place where everybody looks at you and lusts over you, including the dogs.
Including the dogs. That's a great place to be.
And then don't say anything to you. Just stare you in the eyes.
There's the creepy part. While their dog jumps on you.
I don't get it. is it just like a she's saying that like many people in the town do this like it's a thing that just happens in this town i don't understand like this doesn't stop what a weird fucking thing i certainly tell everybody about it too right this place is crazy everybody that meets me they have a friendly dog and then they stare me in the eyes.
It's creepy. I've lived here for over one year, sadly, and have not been met with many situations in which people should have apologized and have been met with many situations in which people should have apologized.
And I can't think of a time in which someone said sorry or excuse me. people will actually look at you, then push the door in your face, even though they know you're coming into the facility, store, restaurant, etc.
Two seconds ago, they're staring at you because you're so hot. Now they won't even hold the door open for you.
What happened? Now they're salting you with doors. You must have dog shit smeared on you or something.
Jesus Christ. Parking and driving is horrendous.
Somehow no one knows how to park?

Usually taking up an extra spot, even when it's completely unnecessary,

and makes parking harder to find.

Most people go 10 to 15 mile an hour under the speed limit.

I can go on, but I have no more space.

They gave up.

This is all very strange complaints that sound like it's about one guy. Yeah.
And they've lumped it all into one big complaint. One time a guy went slow in front of me in traffic.
Another time someone's dog jumped on me. Yeah.
Another time someone pushed a door in my face. Or this happens all day every day.
Or this town has like a weird charter that says you're supposed to be a real fucking weirdo to everybody. One or the other.
People in this town, little above what we normally do, but not too far out of whack here. 54,100 at this point.
It was a little less when this murder took place here. 53% female, which is 47% male, which is way.
That's usually like a logging town will have like 53% male. But in a normal suburb that's a very strange stat.
Median age here is about just about 40, which is a couple years older than the regular. People here, it's a town, a family kind of town.
50% married, 40% married with children. It's that kind of town here.
And maybe that's married with children. That was a Chicago suburb, too.
Race in this town, 63.9% white, 19.4% black, 4.4% Asian, 7.7% Hispanic. So mixed up there.
Religion, 60% religious here. God.
Very religious for a big city suburb. Leading the way here by far is Catholic.
38.7% Catholic. As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the North, as we all know here.
The lakes. As of the lake of the Midwestern Great Lake region.
1.1% Jewish. Oh, shit.
Holy shit, we get to sing. Hava, Nagila, Hva, nakila, hava, nakila.
I don't know the words. Hey.
Wow, it's been a while. Unemployment rate here is just about average of the rest of the country.
Median household income well above the average. It's average is about $69,000.
Here it is $98,081 a year. Doing terrific.
Not too shabby. Cost of living, 100, is regular in the whole United States.
Here it is 105.7, so not too far off. Housing is the expensive thing.
Yeah. Sounds like a radio station.
105.7. Hits of the 80s, 90s, 2000s, and today.
I don't think that radio station comes in anywhere in the country but it sounds like a radio station and then they have like a montage of like you know leonard skinnerd with lady gaga right after it and well or a mashup we play it all leonard gaga lady skinnerd leonard gaga is my favorite that's my favorite singer of all time leonard gaga that's that's a halloween costume for everybody mix mix leonard skinnerd yeah and lady gaga together mix the singer of leonard skinnerd and lady gaga together make an outfit out of it and say i'm i'm leonard gaga and that's a great halloween costume median housing $405,000, which is a little above the average.

That's pricey.

And if we've convinced you, damn it, you want to be Chicago's fun neighbor. You need a giant mortgage.
We have for you the Oak Park, Illinois real estate report. The average two-bedroom rental here is fifteen hundred ten dollars which is about three hundred above the national average uh here is a three-bedroom two-bath nine hundred sixty four square foot house three bedrooms in less than a thousand square feet is pushing it by the way but it's because they're different floors it's an old brick

building and Less than 1,000 square feet is pushing it, by the way. But it's because they're different floors.

Oh.

It's an old brick building.

And basically, it's a very weird building.

They say it's an all-brick single story with an in-law arrangement in the basement.

So an apartment in the basement.

Finished basement is what they're saying.

Main level features three bedrooms and a bath.

Basement features two bedrooms and a bath. So actually, there's five bedrooms.
Five and two. Yeah.
Needs work sold as is. Oh.
You're going to give me a warranty on this? Nope. Just here it is.
We're not fixing shit. You can do an inspection, but we're not fixing anything on it.
Are there any houses that are not sold as is? You know what I mean? Well, a lot of times that means that you can try to ask for credits or you can ask them to fix shit ahead of time when they do the inspection this is you can look and see what's wrong with it but that's the price and that's what it is don't put a goddamn thing in the contract we're not fixing it we're not fixing shit uh here is a six bedroom four bath this is a cool house it's an old row house of light colored stone stone. It's fucking cool looking.
It looks so cool. Built in 1900.
Oh, if it's in Chicago, those are $3 million. Oh, easy.
Yeah, this, though. Six bed, four bed.
I mean, beautiful inside, too. It's got that rounded window room that all those row houses have.
$675,000. With a bay window.
Not too shabby. And then here is a five-bedroom, five-bath, tea bowl for each and every B-hole, 7,621 square foot.
Beautiful house from 1902. It's fucking gorgeous.
The huge porch that goes all the way around. It's old wooden staircase.

I mean, it's been kept up.

It's beautiful.

Stained glass windows on the stairs.

$1,475,000 for that.

Is there acreage?

No, no, no acreage.

But it's a 7,600 square foot house.

That's almost acreage.

You've got an acre under roof.

Yeah, you've got an indoor acre there.

Things to do in this town. Oh, boy.
Here we go. A day in our village festival.
Yeah, there's going to be lots of festivals. Lots of those.
Oh, yeah. Right outside Chicago.
A day in our life? A day in our village festival. The 50th a day in our village festival.
Oh, yeah. That's right.
The premier community event serves as an annual celebration of Oak Park's diversity and community involvement, and organizers are busy planning a memorable day worth of this year's half-century milestone. Worthy of that.
Live music, food, extensive activities for kids, including the return of fun with foam. I don't know.
Is that a sexual thing?

Foam party?

I don't know what the hell that's about.

Foam parties are usually like raves, aren't they?

Yeah, that's why it immediately made me think it was like a sexual thing.

Eight-year-old running around shooting another eight-year-old with foam.

In their boxer shorts, dancing in foam.

I don't need that either.

Sucking on a fucking pacifier for some reason.

Yeah.

At its core, A Day in Our Village has always provided an opportunity to showcase the variety of ways to get involved in community life. Now, what they'll have is, here's the musical acts.
This is the 50th anniversary. This is a big deal.
This is big. You can imagine the musical acts are...
It's got to be enormous. Requisitely huge.
Yeah. Yeah, big stuff.
11 a.m., the first slot. That's when we're going to get this gonna get this going that by the way is the glory spot in any musical lineup the 11 a.m slot that's what you want uh juliet trio will play they play jazz then at noon tiny bubbles will play right that's a ukulele player obviously a don ho knock off there uh he'll be accompanied by the Zen Life Hula Dancers.
Okay. What does that have to do with the Midwest? Nothing.
Nothing. 1 p.m., Skyliners will be there.
They're a big band sound. 2 p.m., the announcement of the Davey Awards.
Oh, shit. I want to know if I'm getting a Davey this year.
Yeah. How often have we been up for a Davey, Jimmy? Fingers crossed.
Who the fuck is Davey? No idea. D-A-V-Y Awards.
220. Big Suit will be there.
They are, and this is very specific, a Talking Heads tribute band. What? That is extremely specific and narrow.
How many hits do they have? I mean, a few. I like the talking heads and all, but a whole set.
For everybody to recognize at all? Yeah, you recognize three songs, probably, the whole thing. Something from fucking Weird Science.
That's what they'll be doing. I don't think I know many other songs.
Yeah, you probably, if you heard them, you know like three. Yeah.
That were like big hits. At best.
Yeah, you know like three, probably. And then finally, 3 p.m., the Chicago Cats, that big suit is, Talking Heads only have 40 minutes, so you know what? Get it in.
That's probably all the hits right there. That's what we play.
Those five radio songs you've heard. And a couple of vague ones that you don't realize are them, but they are.
They are, yeah. And then finally at 3 o'clock, closing it out with the 3 o'clock slot is the closer.
That's the headliner. That's the headliner.
The Chicago Cats with a Z who are an R&B group. Real Lollapalooza.
It's a real. Lollapaloozars.
Quite the festival here. It's an LOLapalooza, Jesus.
We might get a Davey, though, Jimmy. Very important.
I don't even know the fuck that is. Neither do I.
Who knows? But they do have a food court also featuring some exotic foods here, like Taco Mucho will be there. Real exotic.
Exotic. Then, I don't know if you've ever heard of this.
I believe it's an Italian place, Domino's Pizza. Have you ever heard of that? It's a Luigi Domino.
You know what I mean? It's a mario domino a lot of pizza ethnic diversity yes taco mucho and domino's and also taco mucho which sounds like very white tacos and then they'll have hot dogs polish whatever polish sausage burgers, veggie burgers, Italian beef, which when I first heard of that, I was like, I don't know what that is. How did I miss that my whole life? I'm like, oh, because it's Italian dressing seasoning in the Midwest.
Because it's not. Because it's not.
Then, of course, there'll be beer, wine, ice cream, all that bullshit. Anyway, crime rate in this town, what we're interested in.
Property crime is slightly above the average, actually. Really? Yeah.
These people are pissed. They are upset about the Talking Heads tribute band.
You played that one already, and they start throwing shit. This is our 50th anniversary that you brought us.
That's the best they could get, by the way, for the 50th anniversary. Jesus violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault the mount rushmore of crime is about one third under the national average so a little less violent crime but a good amount of property crime enough to make up for it so that said let us talk about one of the craziest fucking things i've ever heard about this is a wild wild tale here.
All right. Let's start.
Let's talk about a murder is what we're talking about. But let's start here in October 3rd of 1980.
Okay. So 1980 we are here with shaggy hair.
Yeah. Big bushes.
That's a good time. Yeah.
It's fascinating how like you can define. Yeah.
Ear flaps. I've talked about it before, but you define decades by like the fashion of it.

And you can pick.

Yeah.

70s was different from the 80s, but that like carries over.

Oh, yeah.

Big time.

From like 79 to like 84.

Yeah.

It's like 83 is where people started chopping the hair that went over their ears off.

That was the ear flap, like bowl cut hair.

They started getting away from that and going with shorter hair.

And yeah, different.

No more like fucking bell bottoms or any, you know, like those big weird pants.

Not the bell bottoms.

99 feels like forever ago.

And then I think about like the generation or the decade next was obviously 2000s.

And when you see footage of 9-11, you're like, oh, Christ, we dressed like that in 2001? Yeah, we dressed like that. Well, you know what? We continued that? I honestly see that, and I'm like, well, that's much better than now.
It's not that bad. Look outside and go, people dress like that? Now? Now? Big black guys in tight jeans? What's on why are they doing that what's happening

in this world very bizarre pants too where they got like a thing on the knee that yes there's a all sorts of weird shit going on with pants right now i don't understand patches patches jimmy and i discuss constantly that we don't know how to dress because we're both dudes in our 40s But we have 12-year-old mentalities.

We're beating on these people for fashion, but neither of us can figure this shit out either we don't know how do you dress appropriately so you don't try to look like you're 20 but also not look like an old man because you're not an old man yet and you feel like you're 12 so how the fuck does that work and we're trying to navigate life Mentally, I'm 12, but I feel like I'm still kind of cool. Yeah, we're trying to still be cool.
I can do things. Cool.
We go out and do live shows. We're pretty cool people.
I can't dress like a fucking 25-year-old. No.
No. I see it.
I'm like, okay, that's what people are wearing, but I can't wear that. Yeah.
I'd look like a fucking idiot if I wore that. And I try my best to dress appropriately for my age, and then I look like I got a fucking tea time tomorrow.
Yes. Like at our last live show when you hated your shirt.
Yeah. Why did I do this to me? So October 3rd, 1980, let's talk about a young lady, Karen Ann Phillips.
Okay. She's 24 years old at this point.
Okay. And interesting young lady here.
She lives, by the way, alone in a studio apartment in Oak Park at 324 North Austin. She works part-time and goes to school as well.
So she goes to school at Rush Presbyterian Street, St. Luke's Hospital in Chicago, nursing school she goes to there.
And she also works at the University of Illinois Medical Center as well. So she's doing those two things.
And on October 3rd, 1980, she attended nursing school. And then a classmate drove her home after class.
And then she went from home to the, how the fuck do you say this? Kriya Yoga, K-R-I-Y-A, Kriya Yoga? Kriya? That sounds like Kriya. Kriya Yoga.
Yeah. Kriya Yoga Temple in Chicago where she was studying to be a swami.
I don't even know what a swami does. She's going to be a nurse and a swami.
Yeah. This is when yoga first came out.
And back then it was more like a cult than anything else. Like now it's just ladies getting exercise.
But there's been a bunch of yoga cults over the years that pop up. It's real weird.
She then – I don't know if this is one of them. I'm just saying.
She then returned to her apartment at about 10.30 p.m. And then her frienden called her to arrange a shopping trip for the next day sick so we know she went to work or she went to school we know she came home that happened we definitely know she went to class at the yoga place that happened and then we know she got home from there safely because at 10 30 she talked to her friend made plans for tomorrow So there we go now the next day comes around october 4th 1980 it's saturday afternoon and she doesn't show up for her for her trip for her friend uh helen to go shopping no so she this woman sent her husband over to helen's uh to karen's apartment here to check on her go see if she's okay and pick her up if she needs a ride, whatever.
So he knocked on the door and didn't get any response, didn't get any response. So he immediately contacts the fire department.
Is that right? Yeah. She's 24 and late for something.
It's not like her car is parked out there and there's like a bubbling like a bubbling stove on the our bubbling pot on the stove he doesn't even have a person he's looking for paramedics yeah he knocked on the door and he's like she's not answering i'll call the fire department which is a very strange reaction i just go i don't know she's not home maybe she fucking who knows she's 24 she could have met a guy who knows i need guys with iv bags the jaws of life and bring it all bring it bring Dalmatian. I need everything.
Whatever you got. Helmets.
I don't give a shit. Whatever you got going over there.
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you a little bit about our safest sponsors, Simply Safe.
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And now back to the show.

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So they do that. The firemen have to, like, break into her apartment.
They must have gone. Which is wild that they would do that.

You would think that they would be like,

how, what, hold on.

She didn't show up for shopping.

How long have you been trying to get a hold of her?

An hour?

Well, fuck, give it a while.

You don't, you, I mean, you're not her dad.

Who are you?

What do you remember?

Yeah, you're not her husband or something.

Let's make, you're her friend's husband.

This doesn't make any sense at all.

So they burst in the door though

and they find that he was right to call the fire department.

Is that right oh yeah they find her face down uh blood everywhere oh no she is totally naked except for a nightgown wrapped around her neck oh boy and her head covered with blood. There's numerous wounds on her body.
It's obvious

that she's been through quite a bit of

trauma here. So, the

officer who entered the apartment,

they call the cops, obviously. They're like,

oh, this is outside our fucking...

Oh, they don't need her. Outside our jurisdiction.

Yeah, we need nothing

here. Take the Dalmatian back in the...

Put it back in the truck.

Don't let him see this.

By the way, don't let him jump on that lady. She hates it.
She hates it. Yeah, she'll get very mad.
Don't stare at her while the dog does it either. So this poor woman is, you know, this officer walks in to find this poor woman, Karen Phillips here.
And he says, she said, he says he saw a body laying, lying flat face down on the floor with the arms extended forward and the legs extended out from the rear of the body, slightly parted a distance of about two feet between the ankles. So not like way apart, but not ankles together.
Certainly apart. Yeah.
Just a little bit kind of the way you would fall and where your legs would kind of go naturally. He said the body was naked except for a nightgown pulled tightly around the neck, and the body exhibited numerous wounds and abrasions about the face, head, and back.
So it looks like she's just been thrown out of a car that goes 100 miles an hour. And just this is what happened.
So the odd thing is here, her fingers were pressed together in a hand signal of an O.

Oh.

Like her.

Yeah.

Index and thumb.

Index and thumb like this.

That's how her hands were.

Which they were like.

He does a diamond, right?

He does the diamond, yeah.

Which is Diamond Dallas Page already did that when he did that.

So I was always like, what are you doing?

Are you calling for a diamond cutter right now?

Because he's about to end the match.

I don't know what's happening right now.

Don't ask for that, Jay.

Yeah, I never understood that at all.

Like, what are you doing?

Oh, he's coming.

That's not yours, bro.

It's just not yours.

What the fuck, bro? He might do it on principle of you stealing his shit that's what that's what i want to watch chop your crotch too man diamond dallas page give a diamond cutter to jay-z would be the oddest thing in the world strangest thing i've ever seen so now that this by the way this hand signal in the yoga because this uh crya yoga is like a religion kind of thing it's like a philosophy i don't know if it's a religion kind of like buddhism isn't technically a religion it's a philosophy type thing i don't know if this would be considered a religion or a philosophy i don't really fucking care either i'm just saying meditation that's like that too yeah yeah it's different whatever but in principles in this yoga world this hand signal is supposed to signify that the person is accepting death and seeking peace oh what the fuck yes that's where would you do that i don't i guess when you when you're about to die rather than in like a christian religion or whatever other religion that you're supposed to pray to God or whatever, this, you're supposed to make this hand signal, and that shows that you're accepting death and seeking peace. And that's their way of prayer, I guess, would be the best way to put it, I think.
Does it freeze like that when you die? Because wouldn't you relax? I don't know. No.
I mean, when you die, sometimes you relax, but you stay pretty stiff.

And if she did it as she died, you could stay like that.

Wow.

Or it could be staged.

That's the other thing.

Or someone could have put her hands like that.

That's one of the things we don't know here.

Now, at the direction of the officer's, 11 photographs were taken.

The first one showed the victim's upper body. She's lying flat in a supine position with her face bloodied.
Another photograph shows her upper body and part of her legs. That photograph shows her lying flat, face downward with her arms extended forward, legs lying flat with only a few inches of space between them, meaning the thighs, not the ankles.
Five of the photographs show the victim lying flat, face downward, arms extended forward, legs lying flat, slightly parted and extended out from the rear of her body and two feet between the ankles. Three of the photographs show the victim's upper body lying flat, downward, arms extended.
So it's just different angles, basically. None of the photographs show her lying in a position that's characteristic of a sexual encounter.
Okay. She wasn't staged with her legs apart or anything like that.
Sort of rape. Yeah.
On display. Well, we'll find out here.
But it wasn't left on display because some people will stage the crime like that. That's not what happened here.
So near where she died was a two-tiered end table used as an altar for her yoga stuff. It held a candle, several religious-type pictures, two incense burners, all up there on her thing.
She's right by there. Okay.
Now, we don't know if she went over there to get closer to it and make the hand signal or if this is all on purpose or all staged this way who knows so in addition they find hairs in the apartment which do not belong to her in her hand oh that's something i would say and also in her hand pubic region and on the carpet and bed sheet as well. The hairs.

Hairs that don't belong to her, yeah. The hair strands, blood samples, vaginal, rectal, and oral swabs are taken from the body.
There is no evidence of forcible entry into the apartment either. Whoever came in, she let them in.
Now, of all the evidence is obtained, they send it off to the crime lab. Later, autopsy revealed that the cause of death was a combination of beating and strangulation.
Good Christ. Okay.
And a vaginal smear reveals the presence of seminal material as well. So there was sexual activity.
There was a rape involved here. Absolutely.
So, yeah. So that's what we got.
Now, outside, in some bushes outside the apartment, they find a tire iron encrusted with hair and blood. I wonder if that's connected.
Huh. You think that might be? Wow.
Perhaps that's related. I know where the blunt force wounds came from, probably.
Yeah. That we got.
Now, yeah, the O fingers is interesting here. Apparently a friend, Helen, the friend that was expecting her to go shopping, she told the cops that the O hand signals as a murdras, a mudras, O-M-M-U-D-R-A-S, a mudras, symbols used in the particular Hindu denomination to which both Helen, this woman, and Karen belonged, which is all part of the yoga thing there.

Now, Karen is a swami at the yoga temple, and she explained that that hand signal signifies the search for peace and the passive acceptance of death. Okay.
So, yeah, that's what we got going on. Okay.
She knows it's coming. Can't do anything about it.
I'm fine with it. But if you're, I don't understand how you're being beaten and strangled and that's, you just make a hand signal rather than try to fight off your attacker.
Like that doesn't, it's because she had handfuls of hair too, which doesn't make sense that she would be fighting and fighting and then it's just odd just accept it it seems staged to me certainly yeah you know what i mean yeah it seems like i could see if you were dying in a hospital bed from a disease and you know you were fading away and you made the signal that'd be one thing but as someone's beating raping and murdering you i can't imagine you're just like, this is fine. I'm not a yoga guy, but.
I've seen a few people die like that that are like older, elderly and have a. Nobody ever does any sort of symbol of acceptance.
It's always panic and their shin to the sky gasping for fucking hair. It's always terror.
It's so fucked up. Yeah.
It's never good. No.
No. There's no, like, subtle hand signals saying, I'm fine with this.
I'm good with this, yeah. Every one of them were like, I don't want this.
Everybody out there, give your grandparents a hand signal to make if they're fine with dying. If when you die, you're cool with it, make this signal.
If not, then we'll know that you didn't want to go. And then give them a hug and tell them, sorry, it's going to happen anyway.
Jesus Christ, man. So they need to question the neighbors here to find out if anybody heard anything, saw anything.
Obviously, anybody come in and out of her apartment. They talk to a bunch of different neighbors.
Only a couple of them have anything of any value to give. One is Mohammed Azadine.
He's a student who lives in the apartment next door to Karen. He said he heard voices and pounding coming from her apartment at about 1245 to one o'clock in the morning, somewhere in there.
That morning. You don't disturb that.
No, no. You go, I don't know what's going on over there.
Good for them. Fuck yeah.
So he could not make out what was being said, although he thought it was some kind of argument, which you also don't want to intervene in. You're like, well, turn the music up louder, I guess.
Yeah. And he did go knock on her door, actually.
He did. But didn't get any answer.
This is in the middle of the argument. He knocked on the door to see if anything.
This guy's a nice guy. Christ.
No kidding.

After going back to his apartment, he heard the argument again, this time in lower voices, though.

It would be like this type of thing, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like low whisper yelling.

But I'm still pissed at you.

Yeah.

And this thing he heard more pounding this time as well.

So that's something.

The next door neighbor, at least they know a time when this was going on, probably about 1245. So that narrows it to one o'clock in the morning, anywhere in there.
Now they talk down the street, a guy who lives in a house right down the street named Stephen Paul Linscott, L-I-N-S-K-O-T with two T's. He's born July 9th, 1954.
So he's about 26 at this point in time. He's from Newport, Rhode Island.
Originally, he went to the University of Maine for two years. And then in 74, he joined the U.S.
Navy. He was a radio man and all that kind of thing.
They tolerated that accent, huh? They did. Absolutely.
That Rhode Island fucking New England accent. So that's fine, I guess.
He became a radio man and even was granted top secret clearance in the Navy as well. He even got married when he was in the Navy as well.
He married a woman named Lois, which just makes me think of Family Guy. All I can picture is Lois Griffin.
He's got a wife named Lois? With that accent and everything and a wife named Lois. I can't help it.
It's just all I can think of. Now, she is the daughter of former missionaries to the Bahamas.
Her parents would always be missionaries to the Bahamas. Oh, okay.
So he got an honorable discharge from the Navy in March of 79. They lived in Maine.
Then they moved to Chicago in the fall of 79. And then they spent the following summer in Maine and then finally moved to Oak Park about a month before this whole thing with Karen went down, with Karen Phillips went down.
So they've only been there a month. Yeah.
And what they're doing here is he is a Bible student at Emos Bible College in Oak Park. And he lives with his wife, Lois, and his two children.
They have a two-and-a-half-year-old named Catherine and a nine-month-old named Paul. So he's got a young family.
No kidding. 26, couple kids, little house, going to Bible College.
He's also running a halfway house out of this house as well. Oh.
He's like, you know, preaching to prisoners, and it's a convict halfway house. He's doing that.
You've got to be kind. Yeah.
So he said he heard of the Bible school while overseas and applied there and a couple other places and was accepted at this Bible school. And he came there right from the Navy.
He said, you know, before this, he was working as a construction laborer back in Maine and all that kind of thing. The only criminal thing he has in his background is a speeding ticket in 1972 in Maine.
Yeah. Literally, that's it.
Not a parking ticket other than that. The speed lengths are so low.
They're low. Yeah, yeah.
You're taking off here. He operates the Good News Mission, is what he calls it.
It's a counseling service and a halfway house for convicts from his home. Real clever name.
Yeah, good news. I've got good news.
So they canvass the neighborhood. They speak with him.
He lives in a building kind of right. There's the apartments and then his house is right next to that.
Oh. So he's kind of the other side of her.
So the police asked him and his wife, Lois, if they had seen or heard anything strange at about one o'clock in the morning that night. Because someone's been murdered here.
So, you know, if you have, let us know.

There's been a murder.

There's been a murder.

So Lois said she went to bed about 10 o'clock, didn't hear shit, slept solid till 6 a.m.

She said, I don't know.

He was still up.

Steve was still up when she went to bed.

So she said, I don't know what time he came to bed, but I know that.

She said that she arose during the night once to go to the bathroom, and husband was sleeping there in bed. And then at about 6 a.m., she got up to get the kids all, you know, talk to the kids and get them breakfast and stuff.
And he was still sleeping in bed. So, yeah, there's that.
Now, he was told by the – they said, well, we don't remember anything. We were sleeping or we don't really know anything.

So they said, okay, that's fine. They said, if you remember anything, they said, no matter how silly it might seem, anything.
Yeah, no matter how innocuous. You heard a knock, you heard a bump, anything at all, let us know about it.
Call us, okay? So a day goes by. Yeah.
and then Steve talks to Lois and says,

I had this dream that night. Yeah.
The night of the murder, I had this dream. He says, you know, I don't know whether it's significant or not, but I had this dream.
So he tells his wife that. Then he tells someone who works in the building where he lives that he dreamed about the murder that happened, apparently, while it was happening.
That's – he was dreaming about it. So he told his wife and he told his friend that.
And his friend said, you should probably call the police. Maybe it will help the police.
Maybe the dream was something. So on Monday, he talks about there's a newspaper article about the murder and all that kind of thing.
And he talks about the whole thing with his wife. And he's like, oh, this poor girl, you know, she's murdered and all this.
And I had this dream. So the wife said, you need to go to the police.
It might be helpful. I mean, even if it's not.
They said no matter how silly it seems to call them. That is pretty fucking silly.
It's pretty fucking silly. I had a dream that night.
So they said, he said, I'll just call. I'll call him.
Just, you know, maybe it'll help. Who knows? I had a dream.
Want to hear my dream? Want to hear my dream? The last thing anyone wants to hear is another person's dream. But I guess they did say no matter how silly.
So they got to be expecting some calls here. Your personal movies with no ticket bought.
That's just for you. And no plot and no acts and no, it's just a weird mash together thing.
And if you're quitting smoking and you did it with a patch on your arm, that's a fucked up dream. You're going to have fucked up dreams and like lions are chasing you.
It's going to be great. Lions with red eyes.
It's bad stuff. So he says, okay, I'll do it i'll i'll do it i'll call the cops so he called the cops and told them hey i had a dream about the murder the same night the murder had been reported so the cop on the phone said tell you what to do here bud write it all down and we'll get back to you no we'll get back to you we'll contact you later you just write you.
We'll contact you later. You just write it down.
Hit us with a forever stamp.

So not real interested.

No, not mail it.

Write it all down, and then we'll contact you when we want to hear it.

We'll holler at you when we have no other leads?

When a detective is ready, because these are just the people taking leads.

So they said, you had a dream.

Write it down, and a detective will contact you.

That's what they said, Which is, okay, sure.

Which sounds like, whatever, asshole, fuck off.

So he does that.

He writes a written version of the dream, which a detective picks up the following day.

Just picks it up.

I heard you have something for me.

Okay, grabs that.

That evening, two cops come to his house.

Oh.

They read his account back to him of the dream and go over as, did you mean to say this? Did you mean to say that? And one of the police officers asked, why didn't you describe the murder weapon in here? And I'll give you a detailed dream because I have his exact, I have transcripts of shit. So I'll tell you exactly what his dream was.
Awesome. He said, how come you didn't describe the murder weapon?

And he said that, well, in the phone call conversation that I had with the other police officer that I called, I told them what it was.

I don't know why I didn't write it down, but he said he thought the murder weapon was a blunt object that looked to him like a tire iron. Oh.
So now they're interested when he says that. That's far too specific.
That's very specific. How many blunt objects are there to beat someone with, especially in a house, a tire iron, in an apartment, not even in a garage? Yeah.
And he happened to pick the one that they found in the bushes. That's unbelievable.
Covered in blood and hair. Sir, buy a lotto ticket.
You are on the money, my friend. Do you dream of numbers, my friend? So later on, he said that he didn't refer to the murder weapon as a tire iron, and he told the police officer that he hadn't described the murder weapon as a tire iron in his written account because he was uncertain what the object was in his dream but he did tell the other

cop that it looked like a tire iron okay so october the 8th is when he comes to the police station

get up get on down here we need to let's let's sit down yeah so they bring him in and it's uh

two officers there with him and um this is his interview they said okay i'm cutting out the

Thank you. down yeah so they bring him in and it's uh two officers there with him and um this is his interview they said okay i'm cutting out the i'm trying to trim the fat here but this is going to be a a little chunk a pretty good chunk of interrogation but trust me it's worth it and it's really fucking interesting i find police interrogations to be fascinating they are definitely good it's certainly murder ones because there's a lot of certainly not not not interesting it's watching people whether they're guilty or had nothing to do with it yeah watching their behavior in front of cops that don't know and they're figuring out whether or not they know or they do know and they're trying to get this person into a certain place to say something or try to whatever.
So they said, OK, Steve, you want to relate to us how you became involved in the investigation? Because this is they turn the tape recorder on. And he says, yeah, I was it was about four o'clock in the afternoon on Saturday afternoon, I believe it was.
And we noticed the fire trucks and the police cars out to the side of the house in front of the other apartment building. And before long, two police officers came over, knocked on the door and inquired as to whether or not we might have any information concerning any strange persons in the area or strange goings on or noises.
And I responded that I had been occupied all afternoon in our apartment and that I hadn't heard anything. And he said it was late last night, about 1 a.m., and I mentioned I hadn't heard anything and that I would inquire as to the rest of the house and if the rest of the people that were living there, whether they had heard anything.
By the way, this is a house with convicts in it. Yeah.
You know what I mean? P.S., halfway. Yeah, these guys just got out.
He said, and they all came up in the negative is what he said. What does that mean? Meaning nobody had heard anything.
Okay. It was at that point when he met.
Nobody had HIV. They were all clear.
Tests came back positive. What the fuck's going on? I came up real pissed off.
And he's negative for hepatitis. Good.
It was at this point when he mentioned it, I said i said i remembered i had a dream that night a very vivid dream about somebody beating somebody else to death and he also mentioned that it was i believe he said that a girl had been murdered although i'm not sure he said girl i think he may have said just a person was murdered we said that we would get back to them and he invited us to get back and call the police station if we remembered anything at all in the smallest detail so i said that we would and he took my name and number and left it wasn't until a couple days later thinking it over and remembering the dream and after mentioning it to two of the staff personnel in the building that i had a dream concerning someone beating someone to death that they advised me i should go ahead and call in and just see what the police thought about it and let that weird or no and and left them to make the decisions about it is this strange the only other person I had mentioned it to was my wife I thought I had mentioned it to her the very morning we got up because normally if I have a very vivid dream I'll mention it to her and she said no that it was that evening that I called was the first time she heard of it. And what finally tipped me off or what finally caused me to call in was that she had mentioned that she had read in the paper about the murder and that it was somebody who had been beaten to death.
And so I decided to go ahead and call in. I called in about 930 roughly that evening, I believe it was, and talked for about a half hour to the officer.
So that's where we are.

They said, have you ever had any contact with police before in your life?

And he said, I went through a stoplight.

And they said, just a traffic arrest?

And he said, right.

And they said, where was this?

And he said, Maine in 72.

So they said, in reference to your dreams,

have you had similar instances in your past where you dreamt about something that actually had occurred? Are you psychic? I think is what they're getting. Do you do this a lot? He says, yes.
What? Yeah, dude. His answers are bonkers, man.
Yes. Growing up as a teenager and into early 20s, I did dream fairly often about certain things or not even dreams.
Just have an impression during the day and it would come true. And it would always be something that would affect my life.
I was never it was never about anyone else. It was sort of like being in a situation talking with certain people that possibly I hadn't talked with before.
And I would find myself in a situation talking to them, you know, like a premonition premonition type deal. Yeah, or deja vu, like today.
Almost. Yeah, yeah, deja now.
And so I always logged in this sort of, I always logged this and sort of speak in my mind. But you never, you know, never tried to think too much or develop it or anything like that.
But I was aware that it was happening and it hasn't been happening in the last six years or so, six or seven years until this summer. And I had sort of an impression that I would be involved with the police and this happened.
Okay. They said, what do you mean by impression? Yeah.
He said, well, just that I would be involved with the police and also that I'd be worried about my studies and that sort of thing because of the pressures of studies. And it's just sort of an emotional impression or premonition.
So they go, and when did you get this premonition? And he says, I just, I don't know. One day at work, I think, this summer back in Maine, I just sort of had this impression, and I was aware that it was a similar type of experience that I had experienced as I was growing up as a teenager, and that it was the first time in six years.
And it's not that I don't give a lot of credence, though, you know, it used to happen quite frequently. I never try to give it much credence.
I always wait to see if it's going to happen i said okay have you ever

discussed this ability you have with anybody else yeah anybody anybody know that you're psychic here you're fucking figuring it out before it all happens he said just my mother who seems to have the same sort of ability oh so the shining passes down that's nice that's good oh my hereditary shining my mother and dora from fucking bewitched is the uh wow okay uh they said my dad darren's a real piece of shit he's a real asshole or samantha was the wife and dora was the mom of samantha i think i remember when i was a kid it was on constantly on reruns and i was like this show sucks or was he yes yes okay no he's bewitched and there was two of them both named dick oh both darrens were played by two different people both named dick dick york and dick sergeant is that right swear to god fucking ridiculous so just my mother who seems to have the same sort of ability and that was many years ago so i haven't mentioned it since we were living in the same house, this sort of thing.

He said, okay, who would you speak to specifically?

And he said that I think I spoke with Jim Sowerman the evening

before I called the police, which would have been Sunday evening.

He said, do you recall what you told him?

He said, I told him I thought it was funny that the only information

I had for the police was that I had a dream with a very strong impression

of a fella who was beating somebody that I couldn't quite make out and was beating him to death. And he was quite shocked at the dream and thought that I should call it in immediately.
And then the following evening, I spoke with Carlos Cordero, who was another staff member of the house. And he also thought I should call it in and it might be something significant.
Okay. So they said, and what was it specifically you talked to him about? He said, I also told him I had a dream that I dreamed and that a man was beating somebody to death and that it was a very strong impression.
And I related to him that the police were looking for someone in connection with the homicide. And I said, it was the same night this happened.
So they suggested I call in too. Everyone I talked to said I should call you.
I tell everybody this shit and they say call somebody else. Call somebody, talk to them.
I don't want to fucking hear it. So they said, was your wife the first person you discussed this with? And he said, no, I guess it was Jim Sowerman.
I thought I discussed it with my wife, but Jim Sowerman was the first one. They said, when did you in fact discuss it with your wife? And he said, I did, but not until we went for a walk Monday evening.
And as we were walking, I mentioned to her the dream. And she related to me.
Actually, I think she related to me first that the newspaper mentioned that the woman who was killed was beaten to death. And then I told her about the dream.
And I told her that I had a dream the same night where a man was beating someone to death, and it was a very strong impression. They go, why don't you give me a little background up to the time that you had the dream? Maybe you were, we'll find this out.
Who knows? Maybe you were blackout drunk and you were doing this. So they said, what was, you had the dream at about what time? He said, now you never know what time you have a dream.
That's a great point. What time does that dream? I don't fucking know.
Sometime between 10 and 6, I believe, probably. I fell asleep at this time.
I woke up at this time. That's what time it was.
Any time in there. He said, I believe it was between 1 and 3 in the morning.
How do you believe that? How would you know? How would you know you had the dream at the exact time the murder was going on?

Yeah.

And I believe I woke up at 2.

I think I looked at my watch and it was 2 in the morning the first time that I woke up.

You think?

You think.

You go to sleep, you wake up, and you look at the clock.

You know what fucking time you woke up.

You know what time you woke up.

I mean, sometimes you don't remember waking up and looking at the clock, maybe. Really? Yeah, you'll wake up sometimes because there's times when, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can wake up in the middle of the night and not remember it.
Because there's nights where I'm like, did I pee last night in the middle of the night? Did I get up to take a piss or not? And I don't remember. Yeah.
Is that right? Not sure. I'm like, I'm not sure if that was last night or the night before.
Yeah. Wow.
You get all mixed up when when i'm sleeping i've never gotten up in the middle of the night to pee to pee in the middle of the night never really never like i hear about that about old men like they do it like three four times in their sleep and not not calling you no man no no no you you know i'm like really is that i i chug like a an entire bottle of water before i go. I'm drinking so much water.
So I always do that. I'm like, why did I do that? And then I'm going to have to piss now for sure.
I know I'm like, I got, I got like five hours and that's, I'm going to have to piss. I just drank 16 ounces of water.
Yeah, that's how you do it on the road, right? You chug and then go to sleep so that you make sure that you have to wake up. When I can only sleep like two and a half hours before a flight, yes, I'll drink like an entire bottle of water.
I'll be like, I'll be up in two hours. No problem.
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And now back to the show. week on National Park After Dark, my co-host and I dive into the darker side of nature, epic survival stories, tragic history, animal encounters, and yes, even some paranormal encounters.
But it's not all chills and thrills. We also share inspiring tales and our passion for protecting the wild places we all love.
So lace up your hiking boots and take a walk on the dark side of the wilderness with us on National Park After Dark. In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan.
This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him. We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world.
And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.
Became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. I was targeted, premeditated, and meant to sow terror.
I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi, produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation.
We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever. He's awoken the people to a true issue.
Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system. Listen to Law & Crimes Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus.
You can join Wondery Plus on the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. Yeah, that's an old fucking...
That's clever. Like an old Native American war trick that they used to do to attack a village.
They don't stay in one spot too long? No, no, it's so you can get up at 4 a.m. to attack a village.
Everybody would drink like two big glasses of water before they go to bed. It's a thing.
I learned that from Bart Simpson when I was like 14.

So they said, which morning would that be?

He said it would be the evening of maybe Saturday morning.

He said, I think it was a short time later.

I mentioned before the dream is in,

I mentioned before that the dream is in two stages.

Okay.

This is the other thing.

He had a dream and he said he woke up, looked at his watch, went back to sleep and the dream continued on like it was a movie on pause. Good for you.
That's amazing. That's we all do that.
We're like, come on, get back in that dream. It never happens.
So he said the dream was in two stages. And the second stage was after I fell asleep after waking up for the first time for five or 10 minutes.
then I woke up again after that and I heard a noise so I walked into my living room and I walked around for a few minutes and trying to shake off the effects of the dream and get some more sleep and they go let's back up from that point let's back it up a little bit here he said okay he's so like alright just I'm willing to they said Friday would you do Friday let's go from there he said, okay. He's so like, all right, just I'm willing to, they said Friday, would you do Friday? Let's go from there.
He said, okay, my memory is usually terrible on days, but let's see Friday. I was in school until 1230.
He said, uh, probably, uh, Friday was probably a relaxed day. I think that I worked around the place.
I'm trying to think of what kind of work I did, but I believe I worked on my car a little bit and just did some general things and also did some studying in the afternoon and the evening. I can't remember too much about the evening at all.
They said, do you remember who you were, who you were with? And he said, let's see. My memory is very terrible when it comes to days for some reason.
But I remember every detail of a dream days later, though. Right.
Which which i don't remember a dream i'll remember right when i wake up and then an hour later i'm like what the fuck happened again and if i want any of it to stick i gotta write it down yeah otherwise who the hell knows so he says but i'll check back and try to find out if we were with anybody they said you were at home with your family or by yourself they're getting frustrated now what the what the fuck we who's we he said yes right normally we'd be at home unless somebody was over or something like that they're like great that's all we were trying to figure out here were you out or home what time did you go to bed he said we went to bed about 10 30 or 11 no his wife went to bed at 10 right he went to bed later so the we thing right away i'm like nope you didn't go to bed at the same. And I remember we spent most of the evening just sort of chit chatting with the guys and talking with some of the guys at the residence in the house and that sort of thing, you know, eating a little food together, that sort of thing.
And then we went up around 1030 and I think we were asleep by 11 or so. they said and when did you walk and when when you went out uh when you went out you went up to your

apartment in the building and he said right they said so this is 11 o'clock in your bed with your wife and you had fallen asleep and now what time is the beginning best to the best of your recollection do you call recall this dream beginning he says well I don't really recall if it's something that happened at intermittent periods like some dreams do but I think though that my remembrance is that it was just a solid dream, a solid impression roughly between one and two in the morning. And I dreamed it at that period.
And I think I woke up at 2 a.m. And for the first part of it, I tried to shake the dream off because it was such a strong impression.
And I was interested in sleep. So I went back to sleep.
They said, had you taken anything to help you go to sleep that night? Yeah. No, nothing.
Have you been, had you been drinking at all that night? That's what they were trying to get. Were you doing like acid and mushrooms all day? And then what happened? And he said, no.
Then they said, well, we might as well get into the dream now. Why don't you relate to us what you recall about this dream? Okay.
He said, okay. I remember probably the first part of it would be seeing a man, a man's face.
The description would be blonde hair, short blonde hair, and sort of very fair, you know, light features, not muscular, but sort of square chested wearing a terry cloth shirt with two, think horizontal stripes across the chest looking for heart Charlie Brown now who the fuck are we looking for and across the chest and I think one on the arm remember that shirt and they said what what color shirt he said the shirt I believe was white or off-white sort of yellow and I think the stripes were red or purple or something of that nature. And I believe that he had on brownish-red pants, you know, burnt red pants on or something along those lines, that tone.
This is 1980. So you go, who the fuck wears burnt red pants? 1980 wears burnt red pants.
That's exactly who. It's a real reading rainbow uniform.
That is a very late 70s. He just described ugly as sin.
They said he was a friendly, he had a friendly way about him and he was very at ease with, I could see that he was talking with somebody and throughout the whole dream, he was facing me and I was looking straight on him and I had the impression that I was a little taller than he was. And so he was roughly 5'5 to 5'7, I believe.
So he's like in this dream, like literally like at his height in the dream. He's looking through his eyes.
It's not just like I see him. Yeah, like there's a camera in the corner of the room.
It's like, I'm from my height looking. And he's right in front of me.

Which is very weird.

Most of the time I see myself in my dreams.

I'm not, it's usually not POV.

You know what I mean?

So that's interesting.

And he said, I think the thing which stuck out most to me was that he was just very friendly and very easygoing and very comfortable in the situation.

He wasn't at all distressed with whoever he was talking to. Very much at ease with the person.
There was a light on behind him to his left, and I was facing him, and it was slightly below his head. It made kind of a soft glow in the room, and I had the impression that it was some sort of living room type situation.
He said about a little ways into the dream, he started to change a little bit in his attitude, becoming more what I felt was more evil intent or something like that. Also, he produced an object.
I think he got it from behind his back and he was showing it to whoever he was talking to. And he just the impression that I got was that he was talking to a girl rather than a guy.
And during this time, just because of the change in his face, he was showing this object to her and starting to smile a little bit, that I had some sort of impression that, you know, this is something which is not at all that healthy. So for whatever reasons, I woke up and I tried to shake it off so that I wouldn't interfere with sleep.
And I tried to go back to sleep after I got back to sleep. I dreamed that this person had this object and was beating this person downward.
This person who was being beaten was below his waist and below his knees or in that area. So he's got like a frame of like a movie frame.

Like this is where the camera is. If it goes below it, I don't see anything.

He's beating a dog, but it's just out of sight.

Just out of sight. Yeah.

Yeah. He said, and the last thing I heard

or he was beating her

on the head, you know, quite a bit.

And the last thing that I heard

had on that part or

the second stage of the dream was this weapon hitting bloody flesh and a lot of blood spraying everywhere. And this is the last part.
And there was a lot of blood. I remember that and that I woke up for the second time.
I thought that I heard a noise from my front room. So I went out to our front room to look around and also to shake off this dream i wondered if maybe i wasn't being impressed possibly that there was somebody in the room or something and i had somehow dreamed about it like did i dream about what's just going to happen to me he's saying i thought sometimes there's something like that is connected so i went out there and i walked around and there was nobody around so i went, uh, back to go to sleep.
And I sat on the side of the bed for a minute and I thought things over, um, and thought about the dream and I tried to shake it off and went back and laid down to go to sleep. I slept soundly until the next morning.
They said, did you at any time when you got up and heard the noise in your front room, did you investigate further and go downstairs or anything like that? And he said, no, I thought it was just coming out of the dream, but I felt like it was still close by. I thought it was rustling of paper, but quite close by.
So I went out into the front room to look around and there wasn't anybody. He said, at any time, did you leave your bedroom or your apartment and go downstairs? He said, no.
Okay. He said, in this dream, this is the cop now.
In this dream, the dream begins with a relaxed conversation, as you stated, a man and what you believe to be a woman. He said, how did you perceive the woman? And he said, I don't really get much impression of her at all.
I mentioned earlier to you that my impression of her while she was being beaten was that she was not resisting at all. And that I had the impression that she was crouched on her hands and knees after the first couple blows.
And then she actually fell to the floor. But there wasn't a lot of resistance.
And I had the impression that she was conscious enough to make some sort of resistance. But she wasn't able to or she didn't.
Also, that I didn't have the impression of her nationality or anything except that the last part of the dream where the weapon did a lot of hitting flesh and there was a lot of blood, that my impression was that she was black. Karen's not black, by the way.
But she But she could be black and blue. She's definitely got some, yeah.
Whoever this is is black and fucking blue. Yeah.
So he said, my only impression that, but that's the only impression I have is that it was black flesh. So that is about the only, black skin, maybe even the flesh is all the same color.
Okay. So that is about the only impression I get.
And basically the dream centers on this person, and I get quite a clear view of this person standing there chatting and very easygoing type of person and very relaxed. That is what my dream is focused on.
He said, do you recall in the dream what the lady might have been wearing? And he said, no, I can't. Do you recall in your dream? Apparently this easygoing, relaxed man entered the lady's apartment some way.
Do you recall how that was? And he said, no, I don't. But I thought the door was behind him behind his back and not too far away.
Like he just, just had entered the room. They said not too far away.
He said not too far away, maybe six or seven feet, something like that. But I'm not real sure because I had the impression that he walked into her place, possibly on her invitation or something like that.
I wasn't too sure, but I remember the first greeting was not strange at all. It was very easygoing, and as friends are, you know, glad you're here, glad you're here, back and forth.
He said, was there a knock at the door? They asked Scott or Steve here. Steve said, I don't get any impression there at all.
The first impression that I have is that the person is not quite standing or maybe taking one or two steps into the room and that's it. You know, coming in through the door or a knock or anything proceeding that I don't have any impression at all of in my, from my dream.
They said, but you have some feeling that he was invited in by her. And he said, well, I would just say by the impressions of the dream that the person was relaxed and that sort of thing.
It didn't seem like any late night encounter, which would cause any sort of suspicion at all. And that the person entering the room, he didn't like try to make any explanations or anything like that.
Just very easygoing and making conversation immediately. They said, OK, so there was a relaxed atmosphere in the first stage of your dream between the man and the woman.
And he said, right. So do you recall any conversation between them? And he said, no.
They said, can you recall if it was cold in there or was it warm? Was there any reason for anybody? Was there any reason anybody was dressed in any particular form? Meaning if someone had a park on or someone had shorts on, I guess. He said, well, he was dressed in a short sleeve terry cloth shirt.
And I don't know what the temperature was that night. But I but no, I don't know.
Really. I would just assume that it was cool unless people would turn their heat down They said, most people would what? And he said, most people would turn their heat down in the evening to save fuel, but I don't really know, not for my dream at all.
Okay. They said in the evening, if the heat was turned down and it was cool, how would they stay warm? And he said, blankets.
Okay. They said in your dream, this conversation lasted how long?

He said, I don't really know. I get an impression from the dream that it would be 20 minutes or so, but I don't really know.
They said, is that all you see in the dream conversation? And he said, yeah, they're just chatting very amicably. He doesn't smile probably until he produces the object from behind his back, and then he smiles at her.
I just think from that, there is a real change in his attitude.

And that's when I decided to wake up. Okay.
The word impression that he says so much. I get the impression.
And they're going to pick up on that too and start talking about that. Yeah.
The cops are going to start asking him. They're going to adopt his language and start saying you keep saying impression let's let's talk about that let's explore that let's explore impressions they said what was the focus of producing this weapon was he upset over something and steve said no he's very easygoing i remember that he held it up to her like this and held it up to her about shoulder high to himself and they said in his right hand and.
And Steve said, yeah, in his right hand. He just held it up and sort of holding it out in front of him a little bit for her to see.
And he was smiling and made a few comments and smiled possibly at her reaction, I believe. And they say, do you recall what this conversation was? And he said, no, I can't read lips to distinguish, but you can tell sometimes what people are saying by looking at their mouths.
But I couldn't see that well his features, just his general shape, a few details where he was and showed his face. And he said, where did he produce this weapon? And he said, I'm not sure, but in my dreams, as dreams went on, he was possibly picking it up with his hand,ibly there was something next to him, but I thought that maybe he got it from behind

his back or somewhere behind him.

They said, can you recall what the instrument was?

Right.

He says, okay, this is the hardest part.

For some reason, he held it right up in plain view, but I think it was rounded on one end

and sort of a metallic dark type instrument. You know, a tire iron.
Name a dark metallic instrument that's rounded on one end. Yeah.
L-shaped with about a one-inch lug nut. Yeah, what is tire iron? So, yeah, that's what he said.
So they said, no, maybe real machined, roughish. It wasn't too heavy for him to handle.
He handled it pretty easily. It was blunt and rather thick and tapered down toward one end and rounded on one side.
Rounded on one end and sort of tapered down, but not to a point or anything like that. But I really don't have any idea what it was.
It was some sort of weight or counterbalance, like in a clock, a grandfather clock. Pendulum.
Yeah. Yeah.
Something like that. So, um, he said, now you said you were startled over the attitude change in this man.
You don't know what brought on the change. And he said, no, there seemed to be, of course I could tell they were talking, but it seems to me something from the inside of him.
You know, it wasn't their conversation that produced it because it was rather sudden and it was something that he seemed to enjoy. And they said, what did he enjoy? He said, well, he seemed to be quite in control of himself as his attitude changed and he was quite confident in the situation.
Not that he was threatened, not that he was threatened that that would cause anger or cause any earlier sort of emotions, but just that it came from him. Basically, he started to change his attitude or that sort of thing.
He's basically describing when Ted Bundy kidnaps a woman. He's all nice and nice and smiling and he gets her in the car and fucking hits her with a tire iron so they said at this point you awoke and he said right he said what'd you do he said he laid in the bed thought about the dream and then um tried to go back to sleep and and not dream it you know just to sleep and then.
And they said, how did that begin? He said, I'm not real sure of the beginning. I know that a couple of times the same picture of him holding up a weapon and smiling flashed in and out as he was beating her.
This was sort of like a flashback remembering before, but I think it began. See, that sort of confuses the transition a little bit for me just where it began at.

But I think it began where he was just beating her and he began to beat her and just started hitting her. They said, what do you recall about the beating? And at this point, by the way, he like gets down on the ground on his.
He's like demonstrating it. Yeah.
Yeah. He said just that he was swinging up high and coming down across his body until he swung it long and striking her, I believe, on the head below his knees.

He said, do you recall how many times?

And he said, I don't.

I know it was several, seven sort of in that area or something like that.

They said in the area of seven times.

And he said in the area of that, he said, maybe more, I'm not sure. I don't know.
Was the beating confined to her head? And he said, I dreamt that he was beating sort of maybe centering on the head at first, but maybe just at random possibly he was hitting, possibly spreading it around rather than beating around her upper body, you know, shoulders and head. I think these were two repeated in the same places.

And as I tried, I couldn't see her at all.

Just that there was this form that he was beating the form and that sort of

thing, man.

So yeah, they say, is he saying anything at this point?

And he says, I don't believe so.

They said, was he smiling at this point? And he said, I can't see so. They said, was he smiling at this point?

And he said, I can't see his face because his head's kind of down. Yeah.
They said, is there any indication in your dream of why the beating was administered? Yeah. Give us a why anything.
And he said, no, except for the fact that it seemed premeditated to me. okay that's a wow that's a fascinating word you just used that's what i mean he just really went yeah hard at it i guess if he came over smiling and had a tire iron behind his back that he beat her to death hard to say it wasn't yeah uh because of the emotions of the and the attitude change and seem to originate with himself it doesn't seem to have been solicited at all.
So it wasn't like they had a conversation. He didn't like where it went and his attitude changed.
He just seemed to be like, and now I got you where I want you type of deal. He said, do you know anything at all or did you get any impression from your dream as to what kind of background she had? Again, now they're using impression.
That's what he uses. He said, no, I didn't, but I just thought she was not a crude person, but just kind of maybe somewhat educated, somewhat intelligent, at least high school and beyond a little bit.
They said, do you have any feelings at all toward this lady? And he said, no, did he, or did I? Whoa. See, he caught them doing that.
Yeah. And they said in your dream, in your dream, your dream person that's watching this, do you feel anything? And he said, doesn't seem to give me an impression.
It seems to be sort of a late night chat with him. She didn't seem to have any problems with him being there.
And he didn't have any problems with himself being there and speaking with her. And they had something to talk about and it wasn't anything that was very confrontational in nature.
During the beating, was she conscious? And he says, yes, she was on her hands and knees during the first part of the beating and she didn't resist. She didn't struggle and she was on her hands and knees and he was hitting her on the bed maybe two or three times and she looked maybe like she might have been crying, but she wasn't struggling, resisting, accepting sort of.
This is the most specific dream I've ever heard. Yes.
And how many people when they're being murdered are accepting of it except for a yogi who's making a fucking, know what i'm saying this is or a monk with a can of gas and fucking yeah yeah some square making a statement yeah absolutely so the accepting sort of is incredible because that's the exact words they use accept death when you do that circle yeah so they said accepting the fact that she was beaten in the head and he said accepting the fact that she was being beaten or and the cop interrupts and said did this disturb you at all in your dream and he said no i just dreamed it yeah it wasn't real you guys it's not real it's in a dream i woke up i'm i'm beginning to think i'm a suspect i'm just telling you about my amazing dream he still still has no clue. That they are suspicious.

That they're suspicious. He thinks he's a helpful guy right now.
Wow. So they said, did she cry out at all? I don't believe so, he says.
The cop says, now, the first couple, two blows, you said that she was like on her hands and knees. And then this is when he gets down on the floor.
And he goes, like on her hands and knees and sort of going down on her elbows that was the impression i had uh that he was willing that he was just uh hitting away i guess uh up on somebody that wasn't moving i don't have any idea why she wouldn't struggle i don't know i just had that impression oh boy and he said well of course she didn't see she didn't care to be perhaps she just couldn't struggle or something i don't know but he had an impression that she was just accepting getting beaten and killed this is very strange very fascinating they said did it seem to infuriate the man or calm him down or did it have any effect on him at all how did he react so this guy steve says he just continued like it was all the all the way it should be. I had the impression that it was the way, you know, the way he expected it to be.
I don't know. Maybe I didn't see the first blow.
Maybe he stunned her enough so that she wouldn't be able to make much resistance like groggy and pain or something. So maybe she was in the unconsciousness or something, but there seemed to be acceptance to me.

She doesn't seem to be unconscious,

conscious and accepted and consciously accepting death.

They said,

she's not unconscious,

but yet she accepts the fact that she's being beaten.

It's a really interesting thing.

And he says,

yes.

And it's a quite dangerous instrument, too.

It seems to me that it was quite thick, and this instrument was quite thick, possibly heavy.

They said, do you have an impression of his feelings at this point?

Yeah, what's he doing?

Yeah, Steve said, for some reason, I get the impression that he wanted to get it over with,

and that he was, you know, beating her constantly, just beating.

But he was beating her very hardly, you know, but very constantly, very quickly. They said, do you have an impression at all from your dream how well the man knew the woman? And Steve says, for how long or how well? The weird question.
Yeah. He said, not really or not very much, but, you know, just the greeting again, I would say that they knew each other.
How well, I don't know. Um, so then they're asking him, they go through a few more things and he says, well, there might've been a break, you know, when I woke up because I went to sleep when, when I woke up the first time his emotions had changed and something definitely malevolent was on his mind.
And when I went back to sleep, I began dreaming again.

He just seemed to be in the process or just beginning to beat her or something like that.

So the time he went out, that couple of minutes was the time in between the beating.

He missed that part of the movie.

He went out to the bathroom, came back, and now someone's getting beaten.

Yeah.

That built to this amazing fight scene.

Shit, why'd I buy the 44-ounce soda? Why'd I do that? Didn't need all that soda. Fuck.
They said during the beating itself, you can just tell for a minute that it was just a very systematic rising and falling of the arm, you know, without any break. Wow.
They said, how did your dream end? How did it end? Yeah. He said it ended.
The last view was a close-up view of this weapon coming down on her beet flesh and on this particular blow it was a hard blow and blood flew everywhere and i look up from it that he i took i took it from that that he was done and i woke up i woke up and tried to shake it off and your dream was yeah that would be a disturbing dream to have. It's a worse dream, yeah.
I've had fucked up dreams, not that specific. Blood splashing, yeah.
Bad things happening, tragedies, and you wake up all fucked up, and I can't go back to sleep. They said, in your dream, then there was no identification of how he exited or what he did after the final blow.
And he said, no, the noise, the rustling paper, it wasn't in my apartment. Possibly it was part of the dream.
So they said, when you heard the rustling, this is the point where you got out of bed. And he said, right.
I was dragging myself out of the dream, so to speak, you know. And they said, so it was kind of a half dream and half.
And he said, right. And they said, you did in fact look around your living room.
And he said, yeah, they said, you cannot recall anything as to what you did. You said the final blow was a great deal of blood splattered all over where, uh, where was it splattering on him? And he said, I would imagine that he would must've got quite soaked.
I would think anyway, or somewhat sprayed a little bit because he had a white, fairly white or pale type terrycloth shirt on. And at least everywhere, um, what is, oh, and at least everywhere else in the room, I saw blood flying onto that sort of the dark side of the room, I guess.
So was there anybody or anything else present in the room during this time? And he said, you asked that before, but I really don't know. I don't think so.
Okay. Now they ask him, do you have any feelings that you may be able to control your dreams? Oh.
And he said, control the events? And the cop said, the events that are taking place in your mind, like you said you had known that you could have done something.

Like if you had known that, you said if you had known that your dream was real, you could have gone and stopped it.

So he said, yes, I don't.

Yes.

So.

No, you mean.

No, I don't know.

But he said, yes, I don't.

Yes.

He said, sometimes that's like when somebody goes, no, yeah. No, yeah.
Definitely. Yeah, yeah,'t.
Yes. He said sometimes that's when something like when somebody goes.
No. Yeah.
No. Yeah.
Yeah. No.
Exactly. He said sometimes my dream, I'll change it to suit myself.
I'll give it a happy ending if I wake up and, you know, I know this is going to have a happy ending and I'll make it. But no, I just dreamed it.
It was just impressions. As a matter of fact, it was like something I couldn't get away from.
So I had to wake up to shake it off. Yeah.
Call a nightmare. They said, what was your dream? What was your position in this whole drama as this whole drama unfolded in your dream? And he said, just as you are, I could see him mostly.
So they said a third person. And he said, yes.
And standing facing him and behind her, that sort of thing. So that's why he said I never saw her face.
Okay. Because I'm seeing over her shoulder kind of a deal.
Fly on the wall from behind her, yeah. Yeah, they said, so you weren't actually the victim, but, and he said, no, no, he wasn't hitting me.
They said, could you, as being the third person there, do you have any feelings that maybe the other two people were aware that you were there in the dream?

Oh, yeah, that's weird.

And he said, it's a possibility. You know, I can't say that they had any reactions that would exclude, you know, a third person because they were quite polite and all this sort of thing.
they said do you think that you may have been called to the situation in some manner uh that

you showed up as a third party in your mind? Like some psychic, I guess, you were called in. Real weird.
He said, I mean, it doesn't bother. Then they said, I mean, it doesn't bother you or isn't there something there that don't you wonder why you should be in the middle of a dream about a murder? Yeah.
Why you? Why you? Why is this in your head? And he said, well, when I first dreamed it, I didn't know it was a murder. I just thought it was a dream of like a soap opera type situation.
And they said, yeah, they said, well, yes, but even in that situation, the woman was getting hurt. And from what you explained to me and the detail you use, it's quite obvious that she was seriously hurt.
And he says, yes. They said, OK, was that obvious to you? And he says, yes.
They said that she may have been murdered. Could that have been? I'm just in your dream at all.
And then I don't know how to phrase this. Yeah.
Steve jumps in and says, yes, as a matter of of fact when the policeman mentioned that there was a murder over here i immediately thought of this dream where someone had been beaten to death that was my impression they said how would you have been in any position in this dream to it was a mess to your to you do you yourself have been splashed with blood did you get splashed right all over the place. Did it catch you? How about you? He said, would I have? I'm not sure I understand the question.
And they said, as a third party in this dream, okay, your position is close enough where you could make out the features and see exactly what's happening. So during this dream, do you dream that you are also being splashed with the young lady's blood as the man is striking her right yeah how much are you in this dream exactly he says steve says that's a good question sure which is a real weird thing to say yeah no shit it is i know it's a good question that's why i asked it he said the last strike my impression was that blood flew everywhere and I was very close.
You know, it was like zooming in in this close to it. And, you know, that would have been my impression.
They said that you would have gotten blood all over yourself. And he said, yes, that the blood would have gone everywhere.
And he said, but I don't believe that I did. It seems that I saw blood going this way and that way.
and it was coming back this way, but I don't recall any blood, you know, coming right back on me or being on me or anything like that. Interesting.
They said, did you protect or intervene at all? And he says, no, not in the dream. And they said, is there any reason why? You just asked a man why in a dream he didn't do something i don't fucking know then a purple fucking happen then a purple giraffe came out like anything could happen in a fucking dream and he said is there a reason why and he said well i was sort of like an observer you know he said if i had been involved i would would have stopped, stopped the whole situation immediately.

They said, yes.

I'm a murder cock.

Yeah, I just sit and watch it.

Jerk off in the corner.

He says, yes, but even as an observer, it doesn't go against your principles to see a man beat a woman to the ground.

And he says, yes, that's why I, and they said, did it make you feel powerless?

And he said, yes.

They said, did you, were you in fact afraid of the man who was beating her? And he said, no, no, no. I was just an observer and it wasn't like anything I could control.
And again, they said, do you think they knew that you were there? And he said, well, I don't know if they knew I was there, you know, the way you put it. But in my dream, I really don't know unless, okay, when the guy, the last part of the first stage, when he displays the weapon and smiles at her, I noticed that his eyes were sort of looking here and there, sort of ping-ponging-ish.
And so that's a possibility that, and they said that you could have been a part of this, and maybe one, if not both of the parties, knew that you you were an observer and he said i'm still not sure if i follow you but go ahead that's what steve says me of something yeah he's like i'm not sure for the first time he's starting to fucking get things processing through his head here they said what i'm saying is you said that this man's eyes ping-ponged around and may have even fallen as you on you as you observed and he said yes they said okay if that's the case then in this that this man's eyes ping ponged around and may have even fallen on you as you observed. And he said, yes.
They said, okay, if that's the case, then in this dream, this man, he looked at you and may have seen you. Steve said, that's true.
They said, was anything addressed to you at all? And he said, no, I didn't seem to have any part at all. Then they jumped to, do you think that he has ever done this before or is this the first time for him? Good question.
Good question, yeah. Basically, they're just treating it like they're talking about him through a third part.
So he said, I don't know, he's sort of an older fella, maybe 30 or so, so he has some experience in life and he was sure, sure quick to take it out on her, so maybe he has done some, had some experience doing it. It didn't look like it was any first time.
You know, I'd never beat anybody like that. I've never beat anyone like that before or beat anybody except, you know, high school brawls or something like that.
You know, I couldn't grab something and start wailing away. You know, he just said it all.
But in high school, I was a badass. Then I was fighting everybody.
High school brawls, you know, constantly having riots. They said, do you think in Maine, they said, do you think it's releasing frustration? And he said, releasing frustrations like just in a mad rage or something.
To me, he was pretty. He's in control.
You know, it's very systematic, methodical and very quick beating. But he seems to in control to me.
And, you know, he might be releasing a lot of rage, but still doesn't but still controlling himself, you know, to make sure he doesn't miss or whatever. But, you know, he's probably got a lot of rage in him.
I'd imagine that. He said, would he would he fear discovery about this? Yeah.
Now he's a profiler. He said, no, i'm not sure about that i think he was he'd resist but i think he kind of would welcome it you know i think most people would and most people would want to get caught he just said so the cop says so he would unconsciously want to be caught and steve said i think so i think so i kind of think so just my impressions of the guy they said would he do anything to maybe assist the man or whatever and uh steve said well i used to be a psych major and i know that some people will do that subconsciously leave a trace you know want to get caught yeah so they said did he and he said i have

no idea so then they said would what would he do for us how would he help us and steve said i don't know i think he's a fairly smart guy so he would probably his subconscious was going to give him away he would do something which would be somewhat conclusive you know yeah he's a real dreamer real His subconscious would give him away, he just said, after talking about dreaming the exact details of the murder. Wow.
Then I like this question because they always ask somebody, if someone asks you what do you think should happen to the person who did this, you're a suspect. That's what that means.
He said, the cop then says, does he need jail help or mental help?

Steve says, well, I don't I don't know if jails help many people, but, you know, I don't know if it's mental help does much either these days because they get out and do it again. You know, they don't change an awful lot.
It modifies their outward behavior or something, I guess. In my opinion, he needs spiritual help.

And that's if I

can be sure that he wasn't going to attack

or so. That's

what I would let him try to do because

that changes a person inside.

So he doesn't need

jail or psychiatric help.

He needs a priest

or a pastor or something.

Which is exactly what someone who doesn't want to go to prison would say. I don't think they really need to go to prison so much.
I think a prayer or two will do it. I think that should just release them to the custody of the church, I think, would really probably be the thing.
They said, how could we find this person? Yeah, that's a fair question. Steve said, that's a good question.
Yes, it is. That's why we asked it.
Thank you. I love when he compliments them on the question.
Is he perhaps sitting directly in front of me? Is he perhaps in this building right now? Am I warmer? Tell me how I'm getting warmer. Warmer, colder? He said, that's a good question.
Well, I wouldn't say that he would go too far, you know. I'd say he needs his roots and connections in familiar territory.
So I'd say he'd change just enough to escape immediate notice that he wouldn't, you know, be too far away. Maybe go to the north suburbs.
Too far away. Oh my God.
Then they said, what are some suggestions in that what we can do to get this guy and get him the help he needs?

There you go.

That's a good question.

That's another way you know you're a suspect because if you're not, they go, how do we lock this guy up forever?

So Steve said, well, maybe I really don't know unless some people feel like I think because if they've really done something wrong, they feel like they've been seen. They said, what would he have done with his bloody clothing if his clothes were bloody? And he said, well, I think he's a smart enough guy to either put them in a bucket of bleach or, you know, cut them up and get rid of them or something like that.
Not he could have just said, rid of them probably. I don't know.
He said put them in a bucket of bleach or cut them up. He had, like, these are my ideas of how to get rid of clothes.
Makes some paper mache out of it. I don't know.
Yeah, totally. Fucking soak that shit.
He said, where would he throw them? And he said, well, I thought he would throw them in the city somewhere, you know, the city garbage pile or wherever somebody has a lot of trash. And, you know, just at random, you know, drive to Chicago, put it in a dumpster.
Yeah, dumpsters or whatever. I'm not, I just don't know if I'm in the guy's head enough.
I just sort of get clear impressions of it. Impressions.
Fucking wild word. Again, now they say, how do you feel about him? Mm-hmm.
And he said, well, better I feel about, you know, most people. He said, well, better I feel about, you know, than most people would, which is not a sentence, by the way.
No, it's not. That's why it's hard to read.
I'm going to link to him because I've seen his inside. I don't know.
Yeah. He said, need, first of all, they're the kind that serves God and he definitely needs it and he definitely should, is responsible for the actions that he does.

Even if the guy's mind is messed up through his environment or whatever else, still he has a certain amount of responsibility.

And so I would think that the responsibilities, whether or not it would be a jail sentence, but also I'd like to see him become more Christian and get spiritual help.

I'm sorry. And so I would think that the responsibilities, whether or not it would be a jail sentence, but also I'd like to see him become more Christian and get spiritual help.
Looks like spiritual help he needs. So the change inside in time to pay his debt for what he's responsible for.
So, again, the same thing. He said, do you think he'll do this again? Great question.
He said, well, he did it so well the first time, you know. It doesn't seem like that if some situation came up.
And they said, do you think the first time was his first time? And they said, well, it's only what I saw is what Steve says. I don't know if it was just his first time or not.
He probably just thought about it for a big, big long time, enough to develop enough so that he could do it without much of a hitch. And they said, what's he doing now? Is he worried about getting caught? What you doing now? Is he seeking out help? Yeah.
Yeah. Did he go back to work? Is he confiding in someone or is he planning to do it again? He's talking to the cops.
God. Steve says, well, I'd say that he probably gone back to work and trying to stay nonchalant and is pretty mad about it inside and justifying it to himself, but still eating out about it.
Eating out about it. Ew.
I think up is the way you're. Wow.
He's all eating out about it. Oh, that's not bad.
I guess they're just going down on every. Wow.
Fucking you clam munching motherfucker. You as he might try to get any might try to get some help.
It might not be immediately. It might be, you know, after he eats out at him for a while.
Dude, stop. Stop saying Eats away at him is the word you're looking for.
Not eats out at him. Oh, my God.
You're looking for a man with puss breath, sir. Pube stuck in his teeth.
Is he so Christian that he doesn't know that going down on a woman exists that as a fucking phrase wow wow after he eats out at him for a while he'll realize he's not going to be able to handle it himself there's no way i this is the best too there's no way i he can get rid of this feeling of guilt that's not good that's the biggest mistake in the history of interrogation that is so bad yeah there's no way i that he can get rid of this feeling of guilt even even bundy didn't slip up there no no no this is bad uh they said so he's got to get some advice somewhere you know they said okay so to me the way you describe him he's not as he's not a bad guy he's a family man he works which definitely means they think it's him if they they're like, he's not a bad guy, right? Like you. So they said, does he have children? And Steve said, I don't know.
And they go, well, I mean, through your, you know, through your head. And he goes, he laughs, Steve does.
And he goes, well, you know, through my impressions. And they go through your impressions that you've had.
Exactly. That's the word.
And Steve says, well i met the guy on the street i would assume you know i could invite him over and his wife would come with him you know and i wouldn't have to ask him if he was married right because he eats out because he eats out so you know he's somebody married him they said you would have no fear of the man on the street you would think he would be like jo Joe Citizen. And Steve says, yeah, until he smiles.
His smile is kind of sort of crooked, a little mean. It looks like he's had sort of a perverse streak in him at a time or two, you know? But that's the impression that I get from him if I was to meet him on the street.
They say, would you want to help him? And Steve says, sure, yeah, I'd be glad to help him. I help a lot of people.
I'll give him directions. I'll, you know, I got a lot of help.
I got bad people living in my house. They said, would you reach out to him to help him? And Steve said, yeah, I, you know, I, you know, that's a lot of you knows.
Yeah, I'd, you know, I'd, you know, if I tell him you know i think i saw him commit murder but you know dot dot dot just okay they said would you tell him that or would you tell us first yeah and he said oh i definitely tell you guys first and uh the only person i try to help him because uh you know the person needs help and realizes it and wants it. This generally won't put his physical well-being in jeopardy, getting, you know, locked up and taken into custody and, you know, court trial and all that sort of thing.
So physical and emotional well-being. That's not a sentence.
What did you just say? Verbal diarrhea is what that is. that is that is buzzwords for uh please help me that yeah that's not good when people have a hard time cognitively forming sentences it's usually because they're under in this situation because they're under a lot of stress yeah from this and they can't get it out because they're so guilty people usually have that thing going on, which is the interesting part here.
In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant starts firing at him.
And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.
Became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. I was meant to sow terror.
He's awoken the people to a true issue. Listen to Law & Crimes Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus.
You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. You know those creepy stories that give you goosebumps? The ones that make you really question what's real? Well, what if I told you that some of the strangest, darkest, and most mysterious stories are not found in haunted houses or abandoned forests, but instead in hospital rooms and doctor's offices? Hi, I'm Mr.
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You can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. So they said, how did he meet her? Is it a work relationship or a relationship that started off, say, in a shopping center, a grocery store, or a church? Now they're really trying.
Oh, yeah. Or perhaps.
Yeah. Yeah, I've, I'd have to say that it was a lot more well known, more of a trusted situation than just a shopping center or something like that.
I think he must've known her better, maybe quite a long relationship at work and trusted where he could walk into her apartment, you know, late in the morning, early morning where she wouldn't really, you know, fear for her life. Okay.
They said, how do you feel about this whole thing? This is the next question. Yeah, I'd love to.
This has got to fuck you up, man. This is fascinating, by the way.
I hope everyone else is as fucking riveted by this as I am, because this is cat and mouse. They said, how do you feel about this whole thing? He said, how do I feel about this whole thing? Well, I guess the biggest thing for me to come to grips with is that there's a big possibility

now just through you guys' interest in it that, you know, this is actually something that is,

you know, to begin with. What? Okay.
That is something that I dreamed of as a situation that

actually happened. And I sort of had a view to this murder.
And they said, like a witness? And he said, like a witness, yes. Yeah.
Yeah. Right now, I'm accepting that, and I guess it's kind of, I don't know what's next, you know? And they said, and are you actually happy with it and he said sure oh yes no problem like i can i can talk about it they said how are you going to deal with the fact that you're in somebody's head like you saw this guy you're in you're yeah you're connected to this guy psychically basically what if we catch him now we put him in prison and every night you dream of that bad food.
You dream of prison.

Eight hours a night you're in prison.

Fuck, that's awful.

He said, I've had a habit of getting in people's head for a lot of years,

and I mentioned I was a psych major when I first went to college,

and that's what I was interested in.

So he's been getting in people's heads for years now.

This is his favorite, yeah.

What the fuck, man? So they said, could he have a dual personality? Could he be two people? And this, I believe, is giving him outs. Right.
This is him trying to go, oh, yeah, he's seriously mentally ill, obviously. Probably a sick man, yeah.
He said, well, it's a possibility. And they said, from what you saw in your dream, could he have been Dr.
Jekyll and Mr and he said as far as two complete splits i don't know but everybody has somewhat of a you know and the cop says split personality and he says split yeah not a complete split but they're a little bit this way and a little bit that way a little bit country a little bit rock and roll you know how people are so he said he said well this is extreme to another. Yeah, this is a nice guy to beating a woman to death in her house.
This is very different. This is paying your taxes and then murder.
Yeah. This isn't not liking Brussels sprouts, maybe having one or two with some cheese on them.
You know what I mean? They said, in what you saw, he said, yeah, this would be a complete split that we're talking about, and I don't really know. So the cop said, in what you saw from one minute talking and smiling to the girl, and the next minute he's killing her, they said yes.
And conversational and nice and ask her cooperation, and they're not irritated with each other at all. And the next minute it's sort sort of a perverse looking smile on his face and showing her a weapon.
He said, what opinion do you have on that? And he said, I really don't know. I stated earlier that I thought possibly he was just a smooth liar and he was able to hide his true intentions, you know, while he talked to her or chatted or possibly, you know, he didn't have a complete split there.
They said, who is he hiding from? You motherfuckers. They said, who's he hiding from? Well, I don't know how these things work.
I guess they something traumatic in the past. They totally reject or hit out against something which they don't give any any conscious recognition to Something like that.
I don't know how it works. I don't know how it works is funny.
They said, this is a great one here. Could you give him a message for us? Would you take a nap and tell him? Wow.
Can you give him a message for us? Yeah. said not knowing him could we through you and steve says you mean like and the detective says yes would you be able to contact him and steve says i don't know i have no idea they said i mean do you find that hard to and steve says, my outlet is prayer.
I would pray for him.

And they said, do you think through prayer we could reach him? And Steve says, you can reach anybody through prayer. Of course he did.
Of course he did. He said, no matter how far away they are, how distant.
He said, let me ask you this. Do you think that you were destined that God chose you to be the go-between for what happened and us? Were you chosen by God for this role? He says, I really don't know what my role is.
thinking about that just maybe now as an informer that, you know, I've been one that's been involved

and anything I've been involved in i've been involved a lot so you know and they said like he boom boomed down he does sound like snow he said he's saying is he's making as much sense yeah it's fucking he's like jim carrey living color version back in the day. Remember that? That's exactly what this guy is.
Fantastic. He said, do you feel involved in this? And he said, more so now, you know, just because of you guys interest in it.
You've made it, you know, something that's consuming some time and energy. And so, you know, I'm willing to get involved in it, you know.
Like, for instance instance if you should capture this guy or something like that i'd be glad to talk to him you know i'd go out of my way to do it driving downstate or whatever why the fuck would they want you to talk to him we'll interrogate him just fine just point out who would offer that it's weird he said if you knew who he forward? And he said, yeah, sure. I'd either go forward to you or if I felt confident enough, I'd go forward to him and try to get him to go forward.
Oh. They said, would he kill you? That's a good question.
And Steve said, well, if I came forward, you know, and talk to him and I make sure that somebody knew where I was going and knew who I was uh, who I was going to contact, you know? Yeah. So if anything happens to me, there's documents in a lockbox.
It's goes right to the New York times. He said, um, he said, you know, make sure that he really had no choice.
It would be that definite. It would definitely, I would definitely come to him with the idea that I'm going to have to go forward.
You've got no choice. They said, why would you go that angle rather than come to us first? Yeah, we've got guns, man.
Yeah. It's kind of our job.
This is what we do. He said, well, I quite I guess possibly because it would be beneficial to him.
It would be more beneficial to him possibly to, you know, it would show a court possibly that there is real true remorse and recognition of bad and a crime, that there was a crime and this sort of thing. And also, it's probably better for him to do that than to have to be fighting and being dragged in and brought through the process and go ahead and, okay, yes, I'll cooperate.
You know, it's better to find him to try. So he's very concerned about this guy getting the fair shake in the system, which is, again, extremely weird.
There's a murderer on the street. So strange.
They said, right now we're going to try and make up a composite on what you feel the description is. And he said, that's all right.
I have Bible study tonight. And they go, pardon me? Fuck Bible study.
There's a murderer loose and you know what he looks like. When you go to take a leak, do a prayer if you want.
He said, I've got a meeting at 930, but that's all right. It's something I don't have to be at.
I should call my wife up. And so they have her, this is funny.
They say, you want to call your wife? call your wife there's a phone right here he says can i use that and he and the cop says sure and grabs it and then goes oh this is a tape recorder the cop thought the fucking tape recorder was a phone they put them in everything nowadays holy shit so anyway they they they're doing the the drawing and they say are you good with age later on? And he said, good at guessing age? And they said, yeah. And he said, somewhat, I guess.
And the cop says, how old am I? And he goes, 38. Yeah.
And he goes, how old is he? And the guy goes, 35, 34. And the guy goes, you're wrong.
Okay. I didn't say I was a fucking carnival very good at that yeah i'm not steve martin from the jerk here i don't know i can't guess how far off am i he said uh they said i like that we establish and um then steve said he might have been older that's true and then they go on to about his eyes they're making a composite they said was his hair was his hair wavy at all? And he said, kind of straight.
Was it shaggy? No, maybe thinned out a little. How long was it? Quite short, shorter than mine, I think.
Was it receding at all? It might've been a little receding right here on the top here. Very little, not too much, either that or sort of a high forehead.
So they do the description. They do a whole composite and they send him on his merry way.
Okay. Now, two days later, they call him back in.
Oh. On the 10th.
They go, we had a couple of things we wanted to go over. You were very helpful, by the way.
I mean, we are, the only reason we're even on this case still is because of you, so if you could come down and help us a little bit more, that be great great so he shows up on october 10th 1980 for a second interview when he arrives he's wearing a light colored terry cloth shirt with a light colored stripe on a dark colored sleeve he's why would you wear wear anything else in your closet wear a who farted t-shirt it's Who cares? I'm with stupid. Anything you want.
This is not okay.

No.

You f***ing. closet wear a who farted t-shirt it's who cares i'm with stupid anything you want this is not okay no you fucking idiot so he's taken to a conference room where obviously they record it it's 10 p.m.
on october 10th 1980 and this is also quite strategic too because he's a guy who goes to bed at 10 o'clock. Oh, okay.
So they bring him in. They do that.

And if someone's a late, like if they wanted to interrogate me, they'd say to be there

at 7 in the morning because they know that I would be uncomfortable with that because

I'm not awake.

So this guy, they're going to call him in at 10.

You, they'd get you there at 10.

Yeah.

For sure.

I'm a sleepy bitch.

Yeah.

So anyway, they get him sitting down and he says, I sort of see it like that she expected him you know she would expect that he would be there no problem and they said but unhappy about the way he came in and steve said maybe not even that i'm not sure i really okay my impression is i'd say no she isn't unhappy that he'd be there you know maybe he came by to pick something up or something i don't know they. They said, like, what would he have picked up? And Steve said, I don't know.
Maybe he was selling Amway or something. What? Just swinging wild in the dark like that? Swinging.
Guess what? Maybe he's the only male Avon guy. Yeah, you know what? He's got a real busy day at dropping off Amway shit.
They said, well, how would you react if somebody rang your doorbell? And Steve says, well, you know, if it's somebody who came by and said that I've got to have this stuff, I've got to fill this order by tomorrow morning. Can I come by? Okay, come on in.
And they said, at one in the morning? And he said, I wouldn't mind. Really? Got you Kirby.
Come on in. They said, what if he appeared in your apartment? And he said, if he appeared in my apartment, you know, he might be tossed out.
Yeah. If he fucking just fabricated from nowhere.
Yeah. Just that would be might be tossed out.
I'd call Ghostbusters at that point. Probably if you just materialized before my eyes.
They say, did you say you are,

you sell Amway?

And he said, yeah.

What?

Maybe he's an Amway salesman. You sell Amway? Yes, I do.

As a matter of fact.

I do it all the time.

If you don't know, if you're very young, Amway was a

multi-level marketing scheme

that I think it might still exist, but it was

the biggest thing in the world in the 70s and they spread it through churches. That's how they did it.
So that was a big deal. Um, so they said, he said, yeah, I'm not trying to draw up any business.
And he said, it's good. It's good.
He says, you get in to save money too. It's great.
He's, he's trying to drum up business. So anyway, they talk about Amway and God for a minute that we don't need to go over.

And then Steve says, there's a line of reasoning Wednesday night. That was when he was there the first time.
It's on tape. But going into it, and I really feel like I got set up thinking about it, too.
So this line of reasoning concerning the psychology of this person and really questioning that I really try to get into this guy's mind and decide what he would be doing next and how is he feeling and that sort of thing.

uh just thinking this over i get the impression later on that possibly you're and he laughs trying to put me into this guy's mind with the idea that i might be in this guy's mind you know

that i could be able to tell you guys what he would be doing next. Would he be feeling like because there's some sort of split personality in my life or something like that? You guys suspect me.
You might as well just say I'm a suspect, right? He said. And so that's, you know, made me real suspicious, and I'm wondering if maybe I shouldn't request counsel.
What would you suggest? Your estate's, because now the assistant state's attorney's here, and he goes, you're a state's attorney and I'm sure you want this case to go well, but, and the state's attorney says that would be entirely your decision. Yeah.
And he says, yes, and then the state's attorney says you may be able to, if you have the ability to have this dream, you may be able to give us something in this guy's mind.

It's my understanding that you have received or in your own background you've received some kind of psychological training and study.

You have studied a little bit.

And he said, yeah, yeah.

And so the attorney says with your knowledge and your ability to have this dream dream you may be able to give us something out of this guy's mind obviously if you could have this dream there's some kind of gift or talent or something you're amazing you're incredible you're psychic bro and steve says i don't know what it is but uh and the assistant attorney says right you know i don't know what't know what it is, but it is unusual. And there are some circumstances here which give credence to the facts that you have already told these officers.
That's why we're here now. And then a cop says, well, how do you feel about that? Obviously, to me, I consider you my best source of information, he says to Steve.
Wow. Steve says, yeah, well, I just want to cooperate, you know, and I want to just kind of, I feel that perhaps I, you know, I'm available and double talk, double talk.
They said to see what's on his mind. And he said, yeah, I wouldn't say on his mind what's on my mind.
I want you to know if there's anything I can say that would help. And if there's any sort of psychological rationing or reasoning that I can discern, you know, I'll help with.
I'll throw it out there. But and they said, can you see how this helps us? Yeah, you get it, right? You get it.
You've got the information. You got it all.
You're our best source of information. He says, yeah, I can see, you know, how it can help you, too.
But I also know that, you know, well, I have no indication that I have any sort of schizophrenic personality. Huh? I have no indication that I have any sort of schizophrenic personality.
And if you guys start thinking that, well, this is so weird, we'll just stick this guy with it. You know, he just seems to be wrapping up the case for us right here.
And they said, we know you're familiar in school with psychology. Uh, they said, you did take it, you know, it's in your background.
And he said, yeah, they said, you know, they, well, what about psychics? He said, there has to be, there have been some psychics, right? And he said, yeah. And they said, well, they had to start sometime.
There had to be a first time for them all, right? And he said, yeah. He said, well, if you are, in fact, one, if you are.
And Steve says, I reject that, but go ahead. I'm not a psychic.
Don't say I'm psychic. I just had a great dream.
He said, okay, you know, if this is your dream, which you're saying it is your dream, then you're the closest person we have to come in contact with this guy and try to find him. And he says, yeah.
And they said, no one else has dreamt about it. And he said, yeah.
They said, no one else has dreamt about it except you. You're our guy.
And he says, I thought about that. And you mentioned that the other night.
Could we try to get a message to this guy through you? And they all, yeah, yeah. And he says, if you're thinking about that yesterday, I didn't know if you meant can he speak to you, Steve, or do you have a split personality and that maybe you can reach? Or do you have a psychic ability that you can reach this guy with? So you're calling me a psychic or a schizophrenic? Which one are you calling me? You call me a murderer or the best thing that you've got right now? Totally.
And then the cop says, it's scary. I'll tell you, it's scary.
We've never dealt with anything like this before. I mean, this isn't, it's not a common practice.
It's unheard of, you know? It's not unheard of. It happened, but it doesn't happen every day.
And Steve says, yeah, it doesn't happen every day. They said, you're the only thing we have to think about this guy or maybe get through to him or to reach out to him.
you know? And he goes, and I wanted to ask you too, Steve says, what sort of message would you

like to get to this guy? I was thinking the other day that I would try, you know,

sort of, I had an impression get to this guy? I was thinking the other day that I would try, you know,

sort of I had an impression that maybe I could reach this fella,

but, you know, what kind of message would you like me to get to him?

Tell him to turn himself in right this second.

Now he's not saying I can't reach him.

He's going, if I can, what do you want me to say?

And the cop says, I think I tried to explain it to you Wednesday

when we were talking.

The message I'd like to give him is, first of all, a message would be a message would help. OK, in a couple of different ways, helping him not to do it again and helping him to come forward because he's got to be eaten up inside with guilt, not eating out.
I can't see how anybody could do that, not feel responsible for their actions. OK, no matter what was in his mind, he's got to realize that he's responsible and he's got to be held responsible.
And the only way that he can help himself is to show remorse for what he's done. And Steve says, and help rather than to hide, you know.
And they said, what kind of statement would it take from us to you to get this guy to come to us?

What do you think you could pass or what would you think you could pass on to this person to have him come in and not feel that he'll be harmed and that he's going to be okay? Steve says, well, I don't know. Just I would try to change his mind about his situation and tell him he needs help.
okay he said maybe i'm just trying to put it into his mind or pray that god will put it into his mind but that he would call you guys up maybe even for you know something unrelated you know he would sort of get the vibes or whatever do a little feel out the vibes um so they said after talking to us don't you think that he could feel comfortable with us? And Steve says, I don't know. You guys are so great.
Yeah, I don't know, though. They said, what would you think, though? I mean, just after the meeting we've had, the two meetings we've had, or the three short things, one short one, you know, or whatever, however you want to put it.
Steve says, yeah, well, to be honest with you, I kind of wonder at your motive sometimes, you know, in your line of questioning. I'm trying to evade you guys.
You're getting suspicious. So then he said, Steve said, so he might feel that way too.
And they said, how do you mean? He said, well, I keep getting, you know, just trying to think along with you guys as you're talking. But your line of questioning still might be trying to implicate me.
Yes, stupid. It took you two days and ten fucking hours and you finally figured it out.
And he said, you know. I'm trying to throw you off my trail.
What are you doing? He said, you know, as far as having a split personality or something. And they said, well, what do you think, though? I mean, after just after the meeting we've had, you know, all of that.
What do you think here? And he said they said they jump in. The assistant state's attorney said, you know, I would like to just, you know, go back if we could to the dream and take it apart bit by bit.
He said, maybe there's something that we can do, something we can know and put A to B together and it'll lead us to C, you know, another or something like that. Steve says, yeah, right, yeah.
That's what I hope to be able to do, you know, by coming forward, you know, cooperating with you. And the attorney says, right, you know that's what we understand, but we don't expect you to say, how do you know these things? Because I don't think, you know, you say you've had premonitions in the past.
You say, if you have some type of, I hate to use the word power or ESP or anything, but whatever it is, there's something there. Steve says, yeah.
And the attorney says, you know, and if it could lead us to something, that's what we're looking for. And so the cop then says, so should we start from the beginning then? And Steve says, I'd like to ask a question.
And they said, go ahead, sure. Steve says, do you mind if I talk to, with a counselor at school or something like that? That's not an attorney, a counselor at school.
He said an older person, more wise because of doctrine and all that good stuff, just to get his impressions on his thoughts on this, on the whole issue. Do you mind if I reveal this to him? And the attorney says, oh, I think, you know, in this case here.
And and the cop says reveal the fact that you had a dream and he says yeah you know because you asked me not to talk about it and they said well you've told people and he says i've told people right but i want to clear it with you too but uh okay it doesn't make any difference then i might there's this guy in our chapel i want to talk to him and get his impressions. So they say, sure, sure.
And he says, OK. And they says, then the cop says, you wouldn't have gone home.
And he says, right, right. The attorney says, right, right.
You know, you wouldn't be walking out of here shortly or whatever. But again, obviously, in a case like this, time is of the essence.
If there's someone out there walking around like this, and from what you've told us so far, what is to stop this individual from doing the same thing again?

It's a bad guy, and you want to prolong how long he's out there?

Yeah.

How long are you going to talk to this guy?

He said, so I don't know when you intend on talking to your counselor or whoever you

wish to talk to, but I would ask you this, you know, would you be willing to do certain

things that would give to us a sample of your blood? And he said, sure. And he said, a sample of your saliva and a sample of your hair.
See, because that is what we know. I don't know what to tell you what we know because the way we do it, well, someone will say, well, you know, he knows all these things because the police told him that.
And he said, you know, I they said I the attorney said, you see, I can't I don't want to affect your credibility. So you give me all these tests.
We clear you. And then you're Johnny Psychic.
And we can go from there. And then they said, Steve, I'm going to say my piece here.
The cop says. And Steve says, all right, okay.
And he said, the person needs help, okay? This cop says, you've cooperated with us as much as you can and as much as you say you know, okay? I'd like to think that you were the person that needs this help, okay? My partner and I and everyone else is convinced that you killed this young lady, okay? I'd be more than happy to give you any help that I can give you. The evidence that you gave us tonight will convict you.
And Steve says, you're kidding. What evidence are you talking about? He said, I'm requesting on tape that I request Chaplain strauss that doesn't matter doesn't matter you can request fucking bugs bunny you can request oprah you can request anybody you want it doesn't mean anything and the cop says we're not asking you any questions the other cop says we're not uh we're not asking you anything we're telling you what we know they do this a lot too like you don't need a lawyer because we're not you know i're not asking you anything.
We're telling you what we know. They do this a lot, too.
Like, you don't need a lawyer because I'm not asking you anything. I'm telling you.
And then that'll delay it, and the guy might have a statement that'll come out. Yeah.
So he says, we're not asking you anything. We're telling you.
And then the other guy goes, not asking you any questions. And the other guy says, we're just telling you what you know, what we know, okay? And the other guy, they're like the Beastie Boys trading off.
They're like Raekwon in Ghostface. He says, now just sit there and shut up.
Nobody's asking you any questions. In one minute, this fucking flipped hard.
I got to sit there and shut up. He says, if you would just let me say my piece, okay? This is the cop, the evidence that you gave us tonight will convict you.

If we have to come back to get you with an arrest warrant,

the judge will now see that you do not request any help.

Steve says, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Analyze the evidence. Analyze your evidence first.

And the cop goes, what is that? What is that?

And he says, your blood, a hair, saliva.

And the cop goes, right, we're convinced it will convict that? And he says, your blood, a hair, saliva. And the cop goes, right.

We're convinced it will convict you.

And he says, analyze it first, Steve says.

Cop says it will be analyzed.

And when we arrest you with this evidence, it's going to come back to you.

And then it's going to come back and show everybody that you don't want any help and that you don't want any help.

We're more than happy to give you help.

More than happy.

I know right now, and Steve interrupts and says, I'd like to have Chaplain Strauss here. The cop just ignores him and says, you sit here.
You're going to be arrested for this. I'm going to go down the points.
You want to analyze the evidence? And Steve says, sir, I request my counselor be here. Okay, now that is closer to requesting for an attorney.

Counselor and an attorney are the same thing sometimes.

And the cop says, don't say anything because I don't want to hear anything.

I don't want to hear your answer.

I don't want to hear you say anything.

We're not asking you questions.

Okay.

That's how they're trying to get around that.

And so now Steve says, will you give me my legal rights, please?

Okay.

Now it's a problem.

Now it's an attorney when he says that.

He said, I request a counsel.

Now that's an attorney.

So they said, fine, fine.

And then the cop says, when you want to say something, you just tell us and we'll get a counselor for you.

I don't want to hear nothing from you.

You want evidence?

You want evidence?

What is that?

That's a boot.

Don't say anything. Just look.
That's a boot. This is a living room setting.
This girl is on her hands and knees. This is where she was being beaten about the head with a blunt object.
So they're saying they have a boot imprint of like a heel and a boot. So Steve says, can I ask you? And he just cuts him off and says, I'm going to show you a blunt object.
This is a blunt object. Let me get the picture out.
What does this mean? This passiveness in her fingers. Is she wearing anything? Seven blows to the head.
Where did I hear that? Maybe one or two glanced off the shoulders. Where did I hear that? He nailed that shit.
He just didn't say anything about the strangulation. He said, well, that's pretty.
Let's count them. That once was a pretty girl.
OK, descriptions. What's a description we have on the offender? Let's see a composite picture.
Does this look like anybody in this room? Meaning it looks like, yeah, which the Steve then says, hey, some guy drew that. I told him it wasn't what I and then they interrupt him and says, yeah, well, the guy drew it.
Who has a shirt that matches the description you told us? You're wearing it. Why are you wearing that? Steve then says, I wonder if you guys will be apologizing once we analyze that little bit of information I gave you tonight.
And they say, Steve, we won't be apologizing, Steve. Let me tell you what we're going to be doing.
And Steve says, if I for a minute thought that I was the guy, I would walk right in and say, hey, I wish to be prosecuted. Hey, if I thought I committed this, what are you keeping? Why are you? And then he says, why are you keeping me from the door? He tried to walk out and they block his ass.
Oh, boy. Is that why you keeping me from the door? And the cop says, I want to tell you.
I want to tell you why she died. She died with you beating her because she was a religious person.
She died, you said in your tape that she died passive. You didn't know why.
She offered no resistance. Her fingers are held with her thumb to her index finger in both hands, making little O's.
She turned to God. And then the other cop says, this is her religious prayer to God and her temple that she goes to.
She turned to God. The reason she wasn't screaming or fighting is because she was doing breathing exercises, preparing herself for death.
For a religious person. James, she's doing that thing.
Yes. That fucking, that meditating thing.
As she's being murdered. As she's being strangled.
Yeah. As she's being strangled.
They said that she wasn't screaming or fighting because she was doing breathing exercises, preparing herself for her death, for a religious person preparing herself for death while being killed from someone, supposedly another religious person. God damn.
Steve says, I never met this girl before. And he says, maybe you've never met Steve.
You met her once, Steve never want. Said, you have to live with it.
You have to. And he says, I don't have to live with anything, gentlemen.
Steve says, whoa, hey now. They said, yes, you do.
You cannot live with this, Steve. It's going to eat your heart out.
That's the correct way to say it now. There we go.
He says, Steve says, I don't have to. It's not eating my heart out at all.
I have absolutely, I'm innocent, guys. You know, I want to see the counselor.
Then they say, the chances of you dreaming this dream. And he says, hey, I don't know what the chances are, Steve says.
The cop then says, this is not a dream. This is a murder.
This is no dream to a girl. She's dead.
Then they said, you walk out this door and we come back and arrest you. You know what? You'll get the electric chair.
Do you know that? And Steve says, if that's what I deserve, that's fine. And they say, you deserve it.
And he says, if I deserve it, I'll take it. You know? And they said, you deserve it for what you did.
And he said, I didn't do it. Okay.
Okay. They said, you did it.
And you told us and you told us how it happened. You told in time you got out of bed your wife didn't know you got out of bed you went next door you said you were the amway salesman you pushed the door open and he said at one o'clock in the morning they said you just told us you just told us yeah they said you opened the door i'm not saying it was one in the morning you said it was one in the morning and they'm not saying it was one in the morning.
You said it was one in the morning. And they said, no, the officer said one in the morning, Steve said.
And then the cop says, I didn't say one. You did.
And then he says, they told me at the door. And the cop says, now, would you let me speak? He just cuts it off.
They're bickering now. You said this.
No, you said that. No, you said no.
So the cop says, you went in the apartment. That's right.
You went in the apartment under the pretense you talked for some reason you took this blunt instrument which you had with you behind your back you brought it in i don't know and you killed her and you beat her and while she was going down she was praying and you said i don't know why she didn't make any resistance she was passive she was praying to god something you should be doing right now you should be praying to god because god is going to condemn you for taking this girl's life her parents are suffering her whole family's suffering this village is suffering your wife will suffer you're out of order i'm out of order everybody's out of order he said and you're suffering and you're suffering regardless of what you say steve said i'm embarrassed embarrassed and I'm, you know, looked like I'm some kind of nut. You know, he said, I'm embarrassed.
And they say, yeah, I'd be embarrassed too if I did what you did, they said. They said, you only, you're only discovered because you called us, you told us you did it.
And the third person, that's where you discovered. That's why you're discovered.
If you called us, we would have not uh if you wouldn't have called us we would have not known where to go you came forward to us you want god to give you penance you want to be redeemed by him and the guy steve says ha that's pretty non-biblical and the detective says i'm not quoting anything from the bible okay and steve says well i've had quite an experience today yeah they're telling you go to the electric chair cup says you've had quite an you've been quite an experience you're going to get the electric chair the judge is going to see you have no remorse in your soul it's embarrassing what you did it's a vicious crime but it's embarrassing your wife will be embarrassed Your chaplain will be embarrassed because you're in his place at this church. It's very embarrassing.
Very embarrassing. And then they said, could you have been sleepwalking? Do you sleepwalk? Yeah.
And he said, sleepwalk? Well, I've never sleepwalked in my whole life that I know of. And they said, that you know of.
Could it be sleepwalk? It happens. I'm asking you.
Could you sleepwalk? Steve says, I'm not going to admit to anything. I'll say no, I couldn't have sleepwalked.
And they said, fine. And then Steve said, good grief.
And then he walked by Snoopy laying on top of a doghouse. Red Baron airplane.
Is he going to get his counselor or not they gotta stop this now they said a very attractive girl a very attractive girl you wanted to talk to her okay you went over there whatever time it was one o'clock i never said one you told me one steve says my wife and he just says steve i cannot understand okay you yourself told me no matter how much of a shell you wanted to go into. And then he says, you were attracted to her, okay?

You like her. You saw her and you wanted her.
You went over there. You got in the apartment.
You spoke with her. You talked about sex.
You found out there was going to be no sex, willingly. So you beat her to death and you beat her and you struck her and that's why she was killed.
And that's why she was killed because she would not give you sex. I know that.
You know in your own mind, Steve, you can tell me everything you want. You can think you're first person, second person, third person.
I have been a policeman for 12 and a half years. I've dealt with all kinds and you wanted sex from her.
She did not give it to you willingly so you attacked her her. That's why you killed her, because you became enraged.
Steve says, I request a counselor. Okay.
Yeah. And he says, okay, this interview's over.
And then he pushes Scott back down in his seat, and he says, sit down. You're not through yet.
You don't get to leave. A counselor will come here.
So there's obviously a lot of parallels between the two crimes. The bloody tire iron in the bushes, the that, the several striking things of the dream of the beatings, the blunt force, blood spattered all around the victim and attacker.
Blood was found spattered around the victim at the actual crime scene. He knew that she was passively accepting being beaten to death and not fighting back the hand signals the setting of the dream attack had some correlation to the actual crime scene although there were also differences in the defendant's account or later on he'll be the defendant of his dream the attack occurred and would appear to be a living room setting although there was no couch in the room he said there might have been a stereo around or something Meanwhile, it's a studio apartment, so they said there's a bed and all that kind of shit there.
Yeah. He said the actual victim was found in the main room of her studio, which contained a stereo but no couch.
The description of the dream assailant bore some resemblance to the defendant himself. The funny thing is usually when people make up a description, they usually look like the guy drawing it.
They usually

describe the person sitting across from them, which

is funny. They can't help it.
At the time of

his first tape-recorded statement,

he had short blonde hair,

light complexion, wearing a short-sleeved knit

shirt with terrycloth stripes

on his sleeves. However,

the dream assailant was described as being between

5'5 and 5'7

inches in his 30s, while the defendant here is about six feet tall and 26. Okay.
So, um, yeah, that's that and then he has a list what he did in the identikit versus him as far as yeah, the identikit inset eyes. He has normalized.
He said clean shaven, uh, the identikit, you know, his fucking drawing. He has a mustache.
Freckled, he doesn't have freckles. No glasses, he has dark military glasses.
Large mouth, he has a regular mouth. Straight smile, he has a regular smile.
Straight hair, my bangs hang in my face. Square chin, regular or narrow chin on this guy here.
So, there we go. Opposite of me.
Yeah. So then they do the blood and saliva test.
The blood results come back. The physical evidence found the crime scene and blood and hair standards taken from both the defendant and the victim.
Vaginal fluid taken from the victim showed type O, ABO blood type only. This was consistent with mixing of blood fluid from the victim who had O blood and someone who is a AB blood but non-secreter, meaning that the blood typing is not secreted into his other bodily fluids.
However, 20% of the population are also non-secreters, and the evidence was also consistent with the mixing of the victim's fluids with that of a secretor with type O blood. So it's kind of inconclusive here.
However, because the victim's blood standard tested positive for the presence of both gamma factors, the expert said the vaginal fluid sample would also test positive for both factors, regardless of the identity of the assailant. Later, the state hair expert, though, concludes that several hairs on the head and pubic hairs found in the apartment were consistent with the defendant's hairs, with Scott's hair.
The study referred to in the testimony found that only one in 4,500 people would have been consistent, have consistent head hairs when the hairs were tested for comparison of 40 different characteristics. And only one in 800 people would have consistent pubic hairs.
Okay, now, this takes, so they go a month, and then they finally arrest him. Steve is under arrest now.
Yes, by the way, they also testified that several head hair fragments and one pubic hair found in the apartment had originated from a black person, and that couldn't be from either one of because he's blonde and she's not black either so he's arrested now the police officer while arresting him said that quote he said the devil had given him this dream at a time his strength was down what that's what steve told him yeah he said that he asked me if i thought some people could have insight into the future, and I said, not in your case, Steve. It was fucking hilarious.
Holy shit, that's really fucking funny. So earlier in the conversation, Steve asked the cop to answer a hypothetical question.
The cop said he asked me, what would happen if someone came in and confessed to the murder of Karen Phillips? Would I be released today?

And the guy told him that any confession would be checked against the facts that they had.

So it would probably take a minute.

Now, bail.

Okay.

His bail is $450,000.

Okay.

But a church where they used to worship in Maine sent a letter to 12,000 independent churches in the U.S. and Canada to ask for prayers and support from other followers of their fundamentalist non-denominational faith.
The Tiny Grace Fellowship Assembly and Union sent about $800 to help his family. About $50,000 in donations and loans has been collected for Lynn Scott's defense.
In Japan, an old Navy buddy of Lynn Scott's had put out a prayer request through the Worldwide Christian Servicemen Centers, and he said, Cook County hasn't got the best reputation for justice. We can't see that there's any evidence to keep Scott in jail.
They raise his fucking bail, and he's out. Unbelievable.
The The churches raise his bail. So he doesn't go on trial until 1982.
Okay. For murder, rape, etc.
The state destroyed the only vaginal swab they had. Oh my God.
Yeah. During the testing.
After a month here, the state filed an answer which listed the existence of the vaginal swab that was taken from the victim. However, the same day the state filed its answer to him looking for evidence without notice, they took the vaginal swab to Scotland Yard Metropolitan Police Forensic Laboratory in London, England, taking it overseas.
at Scotland Yard they performed performed or ordered a destructive test of the vaginal swab, so one that would destroy it. Prior to taking the vaginal swab to England, they performed numerous tests on the swab at the Illinois Crime Laboratory.
The tests in Illinois were conducted to determine the presence of semen and ABO-type blood type from the mixed secretions on the vaginal swab. At the time the tests were performed, they knew from a specimen of the victim's blood that she had type O blood with gamma markers plus 1, plus 2, and plus 10, and that this guy here, Steve, is a defendant with a non-secretor with type AB blood and gamma markers minus 1, minus 2, and plus 10.
So they take it there. That all happens.
The destructive test at Scotland Yard revealed gamma markers plus 1 and plus 2 were present in the mixed secretions in the vaginal swab. The test for gamma marker 10 was inconclusive.
Since gamma markers plus one and plus two mask any other combination of gamma markers.

So if his were in there, it wouldn't be found.

And the victim's blood contained gamma markers plus one and plus two. The test that was done was pretty much meaningless.
Ouch. Unless you have DN fucking A, it wouldn't have mattered.
And they were just going on blood tests. It also seems there, they said at trial, the state put on its case in chief and they made a motion to dismiss the indictment because of the state's destruction of the vaginal swab.

And it was denied, obviously.

So in openings, the prosecutor said Stephen Linscott not only described how a young lady had died in a living room setting, how she was first on her hands and knees and then fell to the floor.

He demonstrated with up and down full extension of the right hand what he saw the man do. That's consistent with high-velocity bloodstains found on her body and apartment.
Suffice it to say, in those tapes, he supplied information only the killer would and could know, and he elaborated in detail. The defense attorney said, he's a deeply religious man.
He couldn't do this. He's married to the daughter of a missionary family.
His decision to reveal his dreams was a difficult one, but he made it because he believed he was it was his civil and more on moral duty. He said that they said the prosecution's test of hair, blood and semen samples from the body are not conclusive.
All you have is this dream. So they said that the state's expert witness regarding the vaginal swab was at times either plainly doubtful or confusing.
Here it is. Question.
What, if anything, did you do with regard to that item? Answer. Yes, I checked the swab for the presence of semen.
Question, and what results did you receive? Answer, vaginal swab positive for seminal material. They said, and could you detect any ABO blood type from the seminal material? Yes, it was ABO.
It was ABO blood group O. They said, if this man was able to detect ABO blood type from the seminal material, then the depositor of the seminal material must have been a secretor, even though they already said Steve wasn't a secretor.
Moreover, if this testimony is to be taken as true, then the seminal material could not have been from Steve because he's a non-secretor and has type AB blood rather than O. So what do you think of that? Hair expert, they never say match.
They say consistent because there is no way to match hair unless it's DNA. So the defense hair expert, he also did not testify that the hairs matched or that they were identical.
He testified that the hairs that were found either did not come from the defendant or had too few characteristics displayed for him to conclude they matched or did not match his hairs. However, with respect to whether the pubic hairs that were found were the defendant's pubic hairs, he said, they said, in view, this is the question, in view of the testing you've described with respect to the pubic hairs, based on your observations and findings and analysis, do you have an opinion based on reasonable degree of scientific certainty as to whether or not the pubic hair taken comes from Stephen? And he said, yes, I do.
What's your opinion? He says, within a reasonable degree of certainty, I believe the hair from the comings did not come from the same source as the hair from the suspect. Okay.
The prosecution asked this guy in Cross if he was aware of a study that found all this 1 in 4,500 people would have consistent hairs, and they went back and forth. In closings, okay, the prosecutor says he says you must ask yourself where is the link? The link is the semen matching the non-secreter.
Mr. Linscott is a non-secreter.
The like hairs more than one, more than two, more than three, and you heard the probabilities from his own expert, pubic hairs and the woman's crotch matching Mr. Linscott, because they go into that.
He said, I would suggest to you, ladies and gentlemen, if I said there were two American flags right there, and they were both 12 by eight, and they they both had the same number of stars and they both had the same number of stripes and they had the same coloring, would you sit there and say, well, there's nothing dissimilar about those two? They are identical, but not a scientist. A scientist will state that every aspect that I examined were consistent.
And what does that mean? There was nothing different. And to a layman, that means identical as the two American flags.
But that's not science, though, because they look alike to you at a glance.

he said then I asked him meaning the defense expert if he was aware of the chief forensic scientist for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Mr. Gaudet and the man says yes of course and he

is leading the leading man in his field and I asked him are you familiar with the figure formula

by which this man and those by this man and those were that any of the two head hairs matched from two separate individuals? It occurs out of every 4,500 times. And so he goes on to that.
It's too much. So the verdict comes in.
The jury is out. What do you do? They deliberate nine and a half hours over two days.
Okay, that's a good amount of time. They have some basic boilerplate hair evidence and this dream is pretty much all they have.
And they're saying the blood matches the secretor thing. The dream's more damning than the science.
Than anything. They find him guilty.
Okay. Of murder, rape.
Really? Everything. Okay, okay he's found guilty now this is met by a courtroom throwing things spitting at and trying to attack the prosecutors yeah the bible people went crazy yeah of course they did they don't get their way they do not take it on the fucking shin at all they take an l way worse than the japanese we're the we're the nicest people in the world unless we don't get what we want and then it's yeah one of those so as the courtroom emptied they shouted at the prosecutors and called them liars and all of that sort of thing a member of the Bible schools board of directors said the verdict results from the meeting of the naivete of Steve

and the jury believing

this concocted story.

To us, it's a miscarriage

of justice.

The defense attorneys

complained that telling jurors

certain details were prejudicial.

They said,

why put a religious connotation

on this case at all

unless it's to give

the impression

that these people,

Lynn Scott and his supporters,

are crazy born-again kooks.

They were so eager

to find him guilty,

the only way they could do that

Thank you. case at all unless to get it's to give the impression that these people lynn scott and his supporters are crazy born again kooks they were so eager to find him guilty the only way they could do that was to reach out and assign some sort of motive of religious execution which that barely came up it was mainly about he dreamed exactly what happened so the sentencing comes around he gets a new attorney for a, by the way, which is highly weird to have different ones.
They said, by the way, the prosecutors have been getting death threats. of course they constantly uh threats have come in a caller to one of them several days ago said

are you the person who prosecuted steven linscott we're going to get you and this guy said in my

11 years as a prosecutor, including cases against street gang leaders, I've never experienced anything like this. The street gang leaders know the game.
That's why they're not going to threaten a prosecutor. They know the game.
You got fucking tackled in bounds, fourth down, fucking move on. That's it.
So the sentencing comes around here. At sentencing, Lois makes a tearful and emotional plea.
Your Honor, Stephen Linscott is both my husband and my best friend. I've known him for eight and a half years.
Not once have I ever seen any behavior showing him capable of this horrendous crime. He's a sincere and devoted Christian, and I'm proud to be his wife.
Steve says, in the end, God will justify me. People, reporters, ask why I speak of a dream at all.
There are segments of society where people do believe in dreams, and yet they would not have gone to the police. I would never have gone either except for the visits by the police.
The judge said that he was receiving a great number of letters on his behalf from churches.

He said, I feel the case was well tried on both sides.

Then he says, Karen Phillips was only 24 years old, and according to tables of mortality,

she could have had a life expectancy of another 65 years.

I feel a period of, you, sir, may fuck off.

40 years would be a meaningful sentence.

Okay.

He'll be eligible for parole in 20.

Wow.

Okay.

The prosecutor said, I'm not unhappy with the sentencing.

12 people heard it and they took eight hours to find him guilty.

I'm just sorry it took five months to sentence him.

That's because he had to get a new lawyer and the guy had to catch up.

One of his church people said, it was a spiritual battle in there. I saw the pride and the coldness of the judge it was the devil they called the judge the devil yeah okay his wife lois said i have no idea where we're going to get the money for an appeal yeah you do from all these fucking church people give me a break in prison scott said or steve said he like he called him scott for reason.
In prison, he said this just gave him an opportunity to evangelize inside the prison. That's all.
The people who really needed it. He said, there's been times of bitterness and anger.
He says, I still have a great respect for authority, but I no longer respect some of the people wielding it. They've taken away the values and freedoms that they're supposed to protect.
Yeah. So there you go.
Lois said, God's given us the strength to make it through. We hope it will end soon.
But even if Steve is not free until we're 60, when he does get out, we'll act like 25-year-olds. Ew.
When he went in. Don't do that.
Gross. The appeal comes in.
The prosecutor said, as far as I'm concerned, Lynn Scott did it. We convicted the right guy, the jury, my partner, and I may be the only people in the world who believe that at this point, but that's my opinion.
It's possible, remotely possible, that someone other than Lynn Scott did it. So, yeah, this is what we do here.
He gets a new lawyer. The blood is the big one.
The blood is the big deal is what we're talking about. And he's got a whole different, a list of like 40 differences between the dream and real life.
Like, in my dream I said just beating, and in real life it was strangulation and beating. Stuff like that.
And rape. And they said beating only, there was also stab wounds and that kind of shit.
So, you know, it's pretty interesting. He's got all, it's a long fucking list of shit, though.
He's got this whole, and also, like, the differences about her. Caucasian in real life, dreamed victim, maybe was a black person.
24, he said she's 24 years old. He didn't give any age about her or anything like that.
She's a nurse, no information about her job. So it's all that kind of shit.
And the attacker, he's like, not me at all. I told you those differences.
Also, prosecutorial misconduct is what they're just saying here. They said that, quote, Karen was raped by a non-secreter and the defendant is a non-secreter.
Seminal material. One fact it came from a non-secreter, Mr.
Mr. Lynn Scott's a lot non secretor.
They said that at the end. Now, no one testified that Karen was raped by a non secretor or the seminal material came from a non secretor.
Only the prosecutor said that. so the prosecutor simply made up that piece of evidence the appeals court finds

the made-up evidence was doubly devastating because not only was it false but it reduced

the pool of possible assailants from a substantial percentage of the male population or even the entire population to just the males in 20 percent of the population. The defendant being a non-secreter was is within that 20 percent group created by the prosecutor and his argument to the jury.
Okay.

So there's also testimony about pubic hair.

According to the state's evidence,

the pubic hair was found on the carpet and several head hairs were found on the bed sheet while we're from a black person.

Therefore they could not have come from the victim or the defendant.

They're both white.

According to the testimony,

race can be determined by hairs,

but neither sex nor age can be determined by hairs.

Okay.

So they can do a lot about the hair stuff that in hairs are not,

Thank you. testimony race can be determined by hairs but neither sex nor age can be determined by hairs okay so they can do a lot about the hair stuff that and hairs are not hairs are not reliable except if it's unless you've got dna yeah then they're terrific um so yeah they go on um he says you must this is in the uh closing rebuttal argument that the prosecutor said, he says you must ask yourself where's the link?

The link is the semen matching the non-secreter.

Yeah, non-secreter and semen in the same sentence is rough.

It's very gross.

Very, very gross.

So the appeals court said not only did the prosecutor in his rebuttal closing argument reinforce his prior misrepresentation to the jury that there was evidence that the seminal material on the vaginal swab was from a non-secreter. Well, we just made it grosser.
We just found a way to

make it grosser. But the prosecutor also told the jury that there was evidence that the defendant's

pubic hairs and pubic hairs that were combed from the victims matched and were identical.

They said they did not, the expert did not testify and he certainly did not intend his testimony to mean that the hairs that he had compared matched or were identical when he said they were consistent. It's not what they do.
So also the defense hair guy, the cross on him, they said that was also prosecutorial wrong. They go on to say that we believe the prosecutor's misrepresentations relating blood and his comparisons were egregious.
And they overturn the decision, overturn the conviction. Now, there is a dissenting opinion here that says, I believe that the prosecutor's comments that the victim was raped by a nonsecretor were based on reasonable inferences, which could be drawn from the evidence of blood comparison tests performed on the semen, I find that the majority inaccurately depicts the prejudice of these comments by quoting them side by side when in fact they're separated by 63 pages in the trial's transcripts, 83 pages containing their closing arguments.
So, yeah, this person basically says, and there was plenty of evidence. So he's now freed on $100,000 personal recognizance bond.
Wow. So Lois says that's the second piece of good news we've had that, you know, he's going to be out.
First, they overturned his conviction. Now it looks like he's getting out next week.
We knew he'd be vindicated, and the bond order is just further proof of that. When he gets released, he said he's going to some of the first Baptist church in Centralia where they had had a huge campaign to release him.
And a big she said at a huge party. They're going to get shit hammered.
I know he's going to looking forward to meeting these people. The town also Lois never expected such an outpouring of support from strangers, but she said it was amazing to see to us that so many people got involved.
People have taken this case as their own, truly as if they were a member of their own family. They've cried for us.
They've prayed for us. In 1986, he's working as an ophthalmologist in Centralia, Illinois.
Yeah, he's the practice manager his wife teaches it does homeschooling for the kids and everything like that um but he's still this charge is still there yeah so wait that's the thing so then they afforded to supreme because the they the overturning was appealed by the state to the supreme court the Supreme Court overturned the overturn and reinstated it with a four to two vote. He said defendant voluntarily came forward with an account of a, quote, dream that contained many unusual details which correlated with the actual murder.
In particular, his account of a beating knowledgeable of the murder weapon and knowledgeable of the victim's passive acceptance of the attack showed knowledge of the crime,

which would not likely be available to anyone else but the murder. Okay.
1987, the court orders a new trial for him. Okay.
So he's going to get a new trial here now. That's what they're talking about.
1990, the verdict is overturned again.

Then 1991, the court grants a new trial again as a reinstatement. So they keep going back and forth.

The justices here rule for nothing that prosecutors in this case had misrepresented evidence that connected him to the prime.

Now it's not even there isn't even a dissenting one.

They said this made up evidence was doubly devastating because not only was it false, but it reduced the pool of assailants again. 1992, the state's attorney announced that Steve will no longer be prosecuted.
Based on new scientific evidence, DN fucking A, they said the scientific evidence does not completely exonerate the man, but it raises scientific doubts and leaves us, in my opinion, with no choice but to prosecute him. Oh, no.
Yeah. Not to prosecute him.
Not to prosecute him. Lynn Scott called the decision courageous and said he made the right decision.
He freed an innocent man, whether he realizes it or not. I am innocent.
Yeah. So that's that goes they turns out that um the based on analysis from cbr laboratories of boston the semen could not have come from steve period end of story he's excluded as a as a contributor to that no he did not do this yeah he said good grief those guys don't murder good grief generally either that or they murder a lot.
Yeah. Yeah, he said good grief.
Those guys don't murder. Good grief, generally.
Either that or they murder a lot. Yeah, or they don't.
Oh, my God. So, yeah.
So then he starts building a new life. Uh-huh.
And he wrote a book called Maximum Security. Yeah.
There, they said there are injustices all the time, and we just learned about that. In 2002, he is pardoned by the governor of Illinois, as a matter of fact, so it's not even on his record.
Then in 2004, the state agrees to pay wrongfully convicted former inmates from a pool of a million dollars. So it looks like he's going to get some cash.
He's going to get anywhere from $60,150 to $138,000 in cash. There's two books about this.
Neither of them are available in audio or Kindle version. Oh, my gosh.
Innocence, the true story of Steve Linscott is by Gordon Hairsign, and that came out in 1986. Oh, wow.
And you can get a paperback for $2.93 on Amazon. And also Maximum Security, written by Steve and Randall Frame, which is pretty funny because he was framed.
It was written in 1994. Hardcover is all you can get.
It's $1.99. Cheap.
By the way, check him out there. Doesn't he look like...
Oh, he doesn't look like he did a goddamn thing. He looks like the guy with the stapler in office space.
Yeah. That's what he looks like.
Yeah. So there you go, everybody.
That is Oak Park, Illinois, and one of the most fucked up cases ever. How did he know so much? That's the thing.
How the fuck did he know all that? Either he is a psychic or someone else raped her while he was there hanging out. All I can think, was it somebody from her school maybe? She came home from the school.
Maybe that was it, but how would she know she passively accepted death? That's so fucking weird. I don't get it.
In a horrible way. Horrible way.
Either way, it doesn't matter. There you go.
That is Oak Park, Illinois in a fucked up case. If you like that and like all all of the things we do here get on whatever app you're on and give us five stars it helps so fucking much i can't even tell you we never do unsolved and i hate this right now i know it's i hate it too but it was like it was solved and then unsolved it's too interesting and they've never found who it is i mean i'm if anybody else if it comes up in a crime scene i'm sure they'll match it up but I'm not sure here.
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We are at Small Town Murder on Instagram at Small Town Pod on Facebook. And now I would like to hear the names of the most wonderful goddamn people who even if it was a dream, if they saw us being murdered, they'd help.
Jimmy, hit me with those names like a tire iron to the forehead. This week's executive producers are Cody and Lainey Leversee.
They're bringing a bunch of people to next year's shows. They're terrific people.
Good people. I think they're trying.
I don't know. That doesn't matter.
I'm not going to talk about what they're trying to do. I think they're trying to have kids, but I'm not sure.
They just got married, the crazy kids. I saw the post all nice and nice people.
I love that kid. Cody's fantastic.
Anyway, Stephen Tot, or maybe Toe, T-O-T. I don't know if that's Toe.
It could be Toe. It's Tot.
All right. We're calling him Tot.
He's a tater Tot. There it is.
Gary Howard, Noel Meeks. Gary.
Hey, congratulations, Gary. Oh, Gary's kids are trying to have kids.
There you go. Yes, Gary had a brand new grandchild, and we'd like to say congratulations to Gary on that.
Good job, buddy. Regina Breyholtz.
Good job having a kid a long time ago. Good job.
I don't know what you had to do with it. He had a kid 25 years ago.
Wouldn't be possible without him. Maybe he put his foot on the kid's ass and pushed him in deeper.
I don't know. Get in there.
Up toward the cervix. Let's go.
Ropes, I'm telling. All right.
Regina Freeholz, Bryholz, Linda Coat, Cody maybe, Mike Conner, the coolest police chief in America, Matthew Moore, Diana Worley. He's terrific.
Good guy. Thanks, brother.
I love him. Other producers this week.
Peyton Meadows. Elizabeth Rockefeller.
Janice Hill. Brock Hall.
Abby with no last name. Emily Michigan.
Clarence Bunch. I don't know if that's Michigan.
That may have been a correction from Apple. I don't remember typing Michigan.
Who knows? Clarence Bunch, Warren Taylor, Savannah with no last name, Lee Arnold, Jeffrey Thomas, 401 Ontario, Michael Chermak, Chernik, Cher, that's an M, Stacey Crosby, Kristen, Kristen, Kristen Piper, Jason with no last name, Suzanne Jackson, Dot Jenkins, Spellscast Art, Lisa Montoya Darling. Cholliway.
Josh with no last name. Megan Russell.
Kit Tiley. Teresa Tapscott.
Allie. Allie Knowlton.
Sarah Lewis. The Sin Hitman 97.
Dorothea Sterling. Daisy May.
Kelly Greenwald. Andy with no last name.
Krista Johnson Andrew with no last name. Leonardelan, maybe.
Liz with no last name. Ashley Smodich.
Chris Weber. Probably not.
Oh, yeah, Chris. Hey, don't call timeout, Chris.
Check how many you have first. Timeout, Chris.
Panda Sanchez. Jared Laurent.
Emily Payne. Brianna Coda.
Ratch with no last name. I imagine that's short for Rachel.
AJ Bryce with no last name. Or Ratchet.
You never know. She may have some self-awareness.
She's really self-aware. She looks in the mirror and goes, they just call me Ratch.
Chrisma Hunter. Travosky.
Travosky. Oh, that's a V.
Travosky. Caroline Dranow.
Tucker Lisping.

Lars Quartz.

Aaron with no last name.

Jacob Magnum.

Tucker can't help it.

Ashley Marie.

Renee Lynn.

What was it?

What did I miss? I said Tucker can't help it.

He's lisping.

Yeah, it's a part of life, man.

He never grew up.

Joe Dickinson.

Laura Thierry.

Tay with no last name.

Taylor Martin.

Duncan Lane.

Austin Mason.

Callie Smith. Karen Mays.
Rob Ellis, Hunter Paulus, Holland Potter, Andrea Burton, Heather Neal, Brandon, Machado, Calissa McAllister, Megan Derner, Jason Christ, Rick Weiss, Persephone, Persephone, Persephone?

Is that a name? Persephone, perhaps, if it's Italian? Hey, it's a Persephone. Jen the Dinosaur.
Bud Dwyer, perhaps the best. Yeah, him too.
Well done. Best press conference of all time.
May many more have the fucking balls. Erica Longo, Bailey Bayless, Howard Haley.
Hal, that's what it is. Brent McNamara, Jeannie, Jeannie Larson, Sean Major, Love My Ink.
David F., Amanda Hepler, Maria with no last name. Courtney Hall, Kyle with no last name.
May with no last name. Claire and Nicola, Samantha Zuniga.
Laurel. Zuniga.
Laurel Schultz. Laurel.
Laurel is what it is. Nicole with no last name.
Molly Goggin. Travis Stotts.
Dana Ranky Gumbs. Ashley Jackson.
Lavinia Hale. Robin with no last name.
Natasha Combs. Amber Gonzalez.
Brandy. Nope, that's Brandon.
Brandon. Bobby Willie.
Patterson. Natalie.
Natalie Miller. Ruby Joe.
Johnny Ruiz. Andrew W.
Allison Roberts. Otto with no last name.
Brad with no last name. Aaron Atienzo.
Crystal Taylor. Sonny with no last name.
Kelsey Walkers. Watkins.
God damn it. Chris.
Chris. Skrnaver.
Skriniver, Scrivener, Scrivener maybe. Reading is hard, isn't it? It's the fucking worst thing on the planet.
It really is, all week. Melanie Gunther, and then as I finish one, there comes another.
Shell with no last name, Jessica Garcia, Hell's Half Acre. I don't know if that's the place.
Isn't that a restaurant or a bar and grill or some shit maybe is hell's half acre a

thing it's like an idiom like a cliche like it's like hell's half acre that place is i don't know what it is call it a shitty house hell's half acre maybe i should read more books natalie cook leah errington uh sam penner amy murer uh donna jones calia martin calia calia uh janine tenbrook 10 broke jordan al, DK, like Donkey Kong, Erica Telles, Carly Osborne, Harley Weigert, DB with no last name like Cooper, Dustin Callahan, Bean with no last name, Taylor with no last name, Renee Blaine, Ashley Fazzino, Wynn with no last name, Melissa with no last name, Tracy with no last name, Eric Wright, Glenny, Glenny Red, Todd Usher, Quentin Binkley, Cameron Hughes, Tasha Yarborough, Nick Fricano, Emily with no last name, Les Morcio, Christina Schultz, Anthony Cicillone, Casey Rath, and all of our patrons, you know what you are. You're the best.
Thank you so much, everybody. You're unbelievable.
You're fantastic people. We cannot thank you enough for all that you do for us're the best thank you so much everybody you're fantastic people we

cannot thank you enough for all that you do for us and uh just thank you keep doing it we love you

so fucking much we will be back and keep coming back you want to follow us on social media

everything is sean shut up and give me murder.com drop down menus keep coming back and following us

and until next week everybody it's been our pleasure. Bye.
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.
Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery dot com slash survey. In the early hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of Midtown Manhattan.
This assailant pulls out a weapon and starts firing at him. We're talking about the CEO of the biggest private health insurance corporation in the world.
And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.
Became one of the most divisive figures in modern criminal history. I was targeted, premeditated, and meant to sow terror.
I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi, produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation.
We explore a uniquely American moment that could change the country forever. He's awoken the people to a true issue.
Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature

of our healthcare system.

Listen to Law and Crimes Luigi exclusively on Wondery Plus.

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