Stop Wasting Time (and Miles): Points vs. Cash Tools for Easier Booking

Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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Ever stared at a flight deal and felt like you needed a PhD in points just to figure out if you should book it?

I always have 10,000 tabs open whenever I'm booking with points.

I feel you.

And today's guest sets out to solve that problem.

I am chatting with the founder of a points tool that you need to know about if you are booking with points and miles.

Welcome to Smart Travel, a deep dive into the tips, tools, and tactics to maximize your travel dollars.

I'm Megan Coyle.

And I'm Sally French.

And we're the travel nerds ready to help you plan your next big trip.

And if your next trip might be booked on points, you might want to listen to this interview first.

Yes, I talked to Julianne Keel, the founder of PointsPath.

That's a browser extension that takes all that points math off your plate.

But before we get there, our disclaimer, and that's that we'll talk about a few credit card companies that are nerd wallet partners in this episode, but that doesn't influence how we discuss them.

The benefits, terms, and fees mentioned were accurate at the time of posting, but things can change.

Some offers may have expired by the time you're listening.

For the latest details, follow the links in the episode description.

I think that's a new record for me, Sally.

Oh, speed time.

You sound like me.

Well, kicking off the news, we have some compelling Marriott credit card limited time offers.

The Marriott Bonboy Boundless Credit Card is offering new card holders 125,000 bonus points, plus a free night award valued at up to 50,000 points after spending just $3,000 in the first three months.

And don't sleep on the Marriott Bonvoy bold card.

That's their $0 annual fee card.

And the signup bonus is 60,000 bonus points after spending $1,000 in the first three months.

That's a much lower spending threshold for folks who want to dip their toes into the Marriott ecosystem without a huge commitment.

Though I will say, I think that boundless offer is so strong.

You are looking at potentially 175,000 points worth of value, and that could easily cover several nights at some Marriott properties.

Oh, yeah.

I like that there's a lot of bonus points too.

So it's super flexible how you use it.

So many options.

Now, some major news coming out of Europe that travelers absolutely need to know about.

That new entry and exit system.

So starting October 12th, the EU is implementing this automated border control system.

It is called EES.

For U.S.

travelers, this means every time you enter participating European countries, you will have your fingerprints scanned and a facial image taken.

And this isn't just when you enter, right, Sally?

Right.

This actually happens on both entry and exit.

So the system will track exactly how long you've been in Europe.

And this is largely to enforce that 90 days within any 180-day period rule.

That's something for people who are doing quasi-short stay visits, but really want to extend their trips.

This really enforces that.

And the worst part of all this news, at least for me, is that there are no more passport stamps.

It's all digital now.

Oh, Megan.

Well, as you learned from listening to my wedding vows, I actually lost my passport once, so I have no attachment to passport stamps anyway.

I mean, what am I going to do though with this like completely empty book?

I swear I travel people.

Oh, I know.

A lot of people aren't complaining about that.

I will say for starters, they are rolling this out gradually.

Full implementation will not be complete until April 2026.

So some border crossings might still be using that old system.

And travelers, give yourself some extra time at these borders, especially during this transition period.

The good news is that once you're in the system and you've already taken those pictures and fingerprints, then it should be faster since your biometric data is already stored.

And one very clear thing to note, if you refuse to have your fingerprints taken or your face being scanned, you will be denied entry.

There are no exceptions to this.

So then the only thing you need to do is mentally prepare to hand over your biometric data.

How about practice that surmise for the photo?

Okay, but seriously, I have read people online saying they don't want to go to Europe anymore because they don't want to hand over their biometric data.

So just be aware of what you're in for.

I can't imagine skipping Europe because I love going there.

So guess they can have my data.

They can have my data too.

All right, Megan, let's switch gears to domestic U.S.

travel news.

Finally, a way to get this free checked bags on Spirit.

No no way i never thought i'd see the day i know spirit airlines just announced that their free spirit travel more master card now includes up to two free checked bags for primary cardholders This is huge if you're a spirit flyer.

You are looking at two bags, up to 50 pounds each, and you can even check things like golf clubs or skis as long as they meet spirit's requirements.

As usual, you do have to book directly with spirit using the card.

And also keep in mind that this free checked bag benefit only goes to the holder.

Unlike some other credit card free checked bag perks, this does not cover other people on the same reservation.

And let's be honest, Spirit's baggage fees can add up really fast.

The card also comes with some other perks that might help you if you fly Spirit a lot, things like priority boarding and 25% back on in-flight purchases.

But we should probably mention that Spirit has filed for bankruptcy earlier this year.

And so I think there's a lot of uncertainty about what the future of that airline is.

They do look to be in trouble.

So just stand guard, have a backup plan if you still have booked a Spirit flight.

We will also link to an article on some of the best airline cards in the episode description.

That way you can find out how to get free checked bags on not just Spirit, but all the other airlines that we cover.

Megan, ever since you introduced me to PointsPath, my life has changed.

Oh, yes.

One of my favorite tools for helping people decide whether it's better to spend points or miles.

It's a browser extension and one version of it at least is free.

I got to say, my anxiety of whether or not I've gotten a a good deal on points has been significantly reduced ever since I downloaded it.

See, this is why I'm your points guru, Sally.

You got to keep me around.

Yes, and I am a fan of both you and of PointsPath.

I actually got in touch with the founder of PointsPath, that is, Julian Keel, to bring him on our show.

I'm sorry, Megan, I interviewed him without you.

I'm jelly.

No, it's okay.

I forgive you.

I can't wait to hear it.

If you have ever stared at your screen trying to decide whether to book a flight with cash or use points from, let's say, your Amex or Chase account or your frequent flyer miles, this episode is for you.

Today's guest is Julian, founder of PointsPath, a browser extension and tool that makes points decisions smarter, faster, and surprisingly beginner-friendly.

But do not let the simplicity fool you.

This is one of the most data-driven nuanced tools in the points and miles game today.

Julian's background combines tech, travel.

He's built PointsPath to surface not just what's available, but whether you should book with points at all.

Something I think even veteran travelers can overthink.

So, Julian, welcome to Smart Travel.

That is the nicest introduction, Sally, that I think I've ever had on any of these shows.

Thank you very much.

It's really great to be here.

Well, I got to say, I truly am a fan of PointsPath.

There are so many points and miles tools out there, and I love many of them.

But what I love the most about this tool is it is so simple.

A lot of people assume that maybe booking on points is always better or booking on cash might be always better, and it's really not.

And this tool makes it so easy to clarify that for me.

That's exactly the problem that everybody has.

You just said it.

People can't figure out how to find flights to use their miles on.

And then even when they do, they can't figure out if they're getting a good deal or not.

Should they use their points or should they use cash and save the points for layer?

And that is the problem that PointsPath is trying to solve and trying to solve it in just a few seconds right where you already search.

For someone who has never used PointsPath before and has no idea what we're talking about, could you give kind of an explainer of how it all works?

Absolutely.

So PointsPath is a browser extension.

So, it's a little different than an app or any piece of software you'd have.

It works inside your Safari or Chrome or Microsoft Edge browser.

You install it once, you never have to install it again.

And then, every time you go to Google Flights, which is typically the first place most people go when they're looking for flights, and you do a standard search, it could be in a domestic, international, doesn't matter what airline.

Google will, of course, give you all the different options with the cash prices.

PointsPath then goes and retrieves the points prices, the live data, and adds them into those search and then tells you for each flight, which is the better deal.

Should you use cash?

Should you use miles?

Are you getting a good deal with your miles?

Is it a great deal?

That is what it does.

And it does it all automatically.

And I always forget to mention this part.

It's free.

I don't know why I always forget to mention that part, but it is completely free.

How do you make money if it's free?

First of all, even for our free users, we do have an email newsletter that we also send on a daily basis and that has offers that you might, you know, click on.

And if so, we would get a commission.

You don't have to do that.

You don't even have to have an email newsletter, but it's a service that we provide.

And then we do have paid tiers with more advanced features.

So for instance, if you want to track a flight and say, hey, let me know when the price on in points on this flight goes up or down so I can book it at the price I want.

We'll track it several times a day and send you an email.

That's a paid feature.

When you're talking about looking at points outside of the major five U.S.

airline programs, that's in our paid features, a points calendar.

So there's a lot of different extra features for more advanced users that might be willing to pay a little bit for them.

The free model is so simple and easy to use.

So I even love that one.

You kind of, you explained how it works for the user.

I am curious, how do you pull all this data on the back end?

How does it work on your guys's end?

It works the exact same way that it works for you if you're going to search a website, one of these airline websites or using an app.

We're just doing the exact same search.

We're simply doing it behind the scenes.

And obviously we can do it faster than if you had to sit there and type it all in and wait for the responses.

And we're doing them all at the same time.

So where it would take you, you know, several minutes to go to American and then go to Delta and then go to United, we can send all those requests at the same time, get all the information back at the same time and display it all at the same time.

But essentially, it's the exact same thing that you would do if you were searching yourself.

And I got to say, when you said several minutes, I think that's the understatement.

I feel like people can spend hours doing this on their own to go to all the airline websites and they are so slow versus google flights is always my recommended way to search for flights even with cash prices because it's so much faster and then you layer on the points path application and it is so fast in terms of just knowing how much these points cost And the best part is, of course, because, you know, some airline sites are slower than others.

Some are faster.

Sometimes we get the data faster from American than we do from Delta.

As soon as we get it, we show it to you.

We don't wait for them all to show up and then they stream in as we receive them.

So you're getting that information maybe a few seconds at most after Google has given you your cash prices.

You're starting to see points prices.

And usually you have all of them within, I'd say, six or seven seconds at most.

Now, so many of our listeners out there say, I cannot find award availability at all.

I might have all of these miles for a program, and I don't actually know how to use them because when I search on the program, there is no actual award availability.

So we are going to talk about some tips on how to actually book those flights on miles, get the best redemptions.

That is up next after this.

The following is a paid sponsorship, not an endorsement by NerdWallet's editorial team.

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Today's episode is sponsored by Claude.

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We are back with Julian Keel, founder of Points Path.

It is time to talk strategy.

Now, a lot of people have these airline miles that they're sitting on and they can't actually find any award availability.

It'll say, all these seats are available on the flight, but you can only book them with cash, not with points.

What do you do in that situation?

It's actually better than it used to be, even though it can still be challenging.

Because in the old days, when most airlines operated programs based on award charts, they would be very stingy about releasing seats because they could only release them at set prices.

Now, most U.S.

airline programs operate on what we call a dynamic pricing basis, meaning that they can change the points price up or down along with the cash prices.

Now, to be clear, they don't usually do that in tandem.

Sometimes there can be a difference and that's when you can get really great value.

But when it comes to actually finding flights with points, this is where PointsPath comes in handy.

There are also other tools that can be very useful, but really it does come down to how can I find them very quickly.

And also a lot of people complain.

They say, well, I'm getting an offer on, you know, American site for a flight with Miles, but it's a terrible flight.

It's got some overnight connection in Chicago or whatever it might be.

With PointsPath, PointsPath, because it's happening right in Google Flights, you can use all the usual Google Flights filters and sorts to say, I only want to see non-stop flights.

I only want to see flights that are no longer than this duration.

I want to sort by, you know, duration or the earliest departure or earliest arrival.

All those filters are still there for you.

So it really does then show you the flights you would actually want to take and get rid of the rest.

The other advantage of PointsPath is that it takes into account those partner redemptions.

And this is where when you talk about strategy, partner redemptions are so important.

What we mean by partners is saying, okay, well, American and Alaska are both part of the same alliance, the one world alliance.

So when American has a flight, sometimes not only can I get it on with American miles, I can also get it with Alaska miles or vice versa.

And sometimes I can get it with fewer Alaska miles than I can with American miles or vice versa.

You might say, well, I don't have Alaska miles, but maybe you have a built rewards card that can transfer points to Alaska or you don't have American miles, you might have a city thank you card that can transfer the points to American.

So PointsPath and tools like it give you those opportunities to say, oh my gosh, I can get a better deal with the points I already have.

I just need to maybe move them around a little bit to get the flight I want.

It really is so complicated and quite the shuffle.

I'm actually going to Europe this fall and we are flying into Turkey on Turkish Airlines, but we booked it using Avianca Life Miles.

And then I actually don't have any Avianca Life Miles.

I had to transfer them from a Capital One card.

So it's like this giant dance, it's this giant shuffle, and it can be really confusing to people.

It can.

And one of the things that we have right even in the free points path extension, you don't need to pay for this, is on any flight that shows a points amount, you can click on the small little eye icon under that points amount and get all the transfer partners.

So I can see, oh, okay, I can transfer American Express points to Delta.

Or like you said, I can transfer, you know, from a variety of programs to say Virgin Atlantic.

It's all right in there.

Literally, all you have to do is click on the little I and you'll get all that information.

You'll even get.

Sometimes, as you may know, a bank might run a transfer bonus for a limited time, right?

As of this moment, right now, Capital One has a transfer bonus to Virgin Atlantic.

That will also show up in PointsPath.

When you click that little I, it'll tell you, hey, there's a transfer bonus in effect.

So you could actually save points right now.

I am curious to hear from you other other points and miles tools that you love because, you know, we're not necessarily all competitors.

So many people do complementary things with their services.

So are there any other great points tools that you like?

Oh my God, there's so many great points tools.

I like to say this is the golden age of travel tools, right?

Because not only are there great points tools, there's great flight tools, there's great travel tools.

One of the sites that I always go to is a Ward Wallet, where you can actually track all your points balances.

So if you have a certain amount in America, a lot of people are like, I can never remember how many points I have anywhere or where are they, when are they going to expire and all of that.

Award wallet can track all that information for you.

PointMe is one of the big sites that people go to for award search tools.

They run on their own platform.

So, that's an advantage or a disadvantage, depending you have to remember to go there.

But they cover a lot of different programs and give you a lot of options that way.

A third popular one that I use myself sometimes is seats.ero.

Seats.ero is really focused heavily on partner redemptions and international itineraries.

You know, I always like to say about all my competitors, I think they're great and I use them myself because it's all about the right tool for the right job.

I think a lot of those folks are a little more for intermediate to advanced users.

You kind of have to know what you're doing before you get in there, where points path is really aimed more for a beginner and somebody who doesn't necessarily want to become a points expert, just wants to know the answer.

Should I use my points or should I pay cash?

I speak to so many people who say, I have 300,000 chase points or something wild.

And they're like, I've just been saving them.

What should I spend them on?

And I say, you need to download PointsPath.

And if you ever have a flight that you're booking, whether it's for a wedding, your family vacation, whatever it is, if PointsPath says the price to book in points is cheaper, do not sit on those 300,000 chase points.

It is never worth sitting on that many points because at NerdWallet, we say that points lose their value.

We're all very familiar with real inflation out there in the real world.

I think points inflation can sometimes be worse.

So I always recommend spending those points down and points path makes it possible to know at least you are getting a good redemption when you spend them down.

You're 100% right about that, Sally, because earn and burn is the saying when it comes to points.

They do not become more valuable over time.

They only become less valuable, just like a dollar, right?

The same is true of a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow.

I always tell people if they say, oh, I'm saving them for retirement or whatever, don't do that.

I think you should be trying to burn through all of your existing points within a few years, two or three years at most, and be earning more, of course, right?

The beauty of that is with credit card offers today and all the options, all the ways to earn points, you'll earn more.

Use your points while they still have value.

They will not have more value down the line.

Let's talk about what's coming down the line.

Airlines keep devaluing their miles.

Banks keep raising the annual fees on their credit cards.

We have many examples of that this year.

Where do you think the industry is headed in the next three to five years?

The advent of, or really almost you could say, the

amazing amount of premium credit cards that have hit the market in the last few years, it's both terrific and one of those things where you say, well, I can't possibly spend all this money on all these credit cards, nor should you.

But the perks that are available are really, in some cases, outstanding.

The new Alaska card that just came out is really a fascinating product because it is at that sort of $395 annual fee that maybe a few years ago would have been like, wow, that's a lot of money.

But today, that's not even that much.

One of the more affordable ones.

Yeah, that's one of the more affordable, expensive cards.

It's still an expensive card.

I always tell people, listen, because they say that's a lot of money.

You say, well, if you're not going to use the perks of the card, it is.

But if you are, if you can look at those perks and say, hey, I can absolutely take advantage of, say, this $200 travel credit or this $300, whatever it might be, and make the value worth it, then it's worth getting.

You don't want to have so many of them that you can't use all the perks.

But if you find the card that fits your lifestyle and the way you travel, it can absolutely be worth paying for.

I do often hear, especially this year, where we've seen so many cards raise their annual fees into the close to a thousand dollar territory.

A lot of people say this points game is getting more elitist and the people who can afford $1,000 in annual fees are getting these better perks.

And then meanwhile, we have these airlines like Spirit that are falling apart.

And I'm curious how you see the industry going.

And, you know, to tie it back to Points PointsPath, how does PointsPath make this more accessible?

The advent of these cards and the way they keep raising the fees, I think are all part and parcel with how the travel industry has evolved since the pandemic.

People are looking for premium experiences and they are willing to pay for them.

The airlines that are doing well, Delta and United, are the ones that are offering the most business class seats, the most international destinations, while those like Spirit and Southwest are having more difficulty because they lack those features.

I think the exact same thing is true true of credit cards.

The reason we're seeing all these premium cards and actually seeing them raise their fees, but add more perks is that people want to have a premium experience.

And that's what these cards are trying to provide, offering a premium experience that you might not be able to get another way.

So to answer your question, I don't see this changing anytime soon.

I think it is just a matter of time before we see the first widely available $1,000 annual fee card.

I don't think it's going to happen tomorrow, but I would be surprised if it doesn't happen in the next three to four years.

I think as long as people are asking for those premium experiences and willing to pay for them, the issuers are simply going to keep providing what the market wants.

And some of those cards can pay off for those power users, those power travelers.

Now, let's talk a little bit more about power travelers.

Are there any common traps that you see these points pros fall for?

What I do see actually, points pros in particular do is get so obsessed with the value of their miles that they're willing to do an inconvenient trip.

They're willing to say, oh, I'll do this two-stop 29-hour itinerary because I'm getting so much more value for my miles.

Sure, that that's probably true, but what's the value of your time?

What's the value of your comfort?

You do have to remember everything is a balance and it's okay to get a little less value for your points if it means a more efficient trip.

Now, with that said, if you're looking at a trip where the cash deal is just so much better than the miles deal, don't use your miles.

Pay the cash, save your miles for a better opportunity.

There's definitely a balance that you'll find in there.

And there's still a lot of opportunities out there to use your miles effectively.

When you're searching on these websites, Nerdball does this every year where we search award availability by hand to actually find out what these miles are worth.

And some of these websites are awful to use.

Some, if I get assigned a certain website like Southwest or United, I'm like, oh, this is so easy to navigate.

And then some I get assigned this horrible airline program.

Do you find on your end that there are any airline programs that are particularly challenging to integrate just because maybe their award logic is so unpredictable?

So we do, of course, definitely have our challenges as far as integrating airline programs.

They're actually, though, usually different because we're not necessarily dealing with all of that front end interface, right?

Where we're able to go behind it and bypass it.

And that's also what partially makes Points Path so fast is that we're able to do away with all that.

It is interesting how a really good user interface does make a huge difference when it comes to trying to find award availability.

And the airlines that have taken the time to do a good job with that, I think, do have an advantage.

With that all said, when you're using your points, using one of these aggregation tools, whether it's PointsPath or one of the others, is going to be your fastest way of finding what you want because it's going to show you all the options and maybe some that you haven't even thought of all at one time.

All right.

Well, I think I want to move along to some rapid fire questions about you.

Are you ready?

I got my hand on the button.

I'm ready to go.

Okay.

Do you have a favorite underrated transfer partner right now?

I love Alaska.

I'll tell you, I am always shocked.

Yes.

I haven't even gotten my Atmos card yet, but I am always shocked at how much value I can get for Alaska Miles.

Hopefully, they've just changed over to the Atmos program, and I think we're going to continue to see that kind of value, at least for the foreseeable future.

But don't sleep on Alaska Miles.

There's some really amazing values there.

Any particularly great redemption you've made?

And maybe it was on Alaska?

Well, it was with Alaska Miles, but not necessarily on Alaska.

Oh,

the beauty of it, right?

Alaska currently has a partnership with an airline called Condor that flies in and out of Germany, a German carrier.

But what they have available is a transatlantic business class seat that Alaska often has available for just 45,000 miles each direction.

That's a fantastic way to get in and out of Europe.

And once you're in Europe, it's easy to jump a very quick, cheap flight to anywhere you want on the continent and in a very, very nice business class seat.

We've actually talked about that on the show.

I have not flown Condor myself, but I've seen their planes, the striped, they look like socks.

They do or candy canes, yes.

Oh, candy canes.

That's, oh, Julian, that's so much nicer than socks.

All right.

So are you going to consider applying for that new Atmos guard?

You know what's funny?

I did right before I came on the show.

I got approved.

All right.

You're a real fan.

Let's say that you had 100,000 points on any program you want.

What would that program be?

And how would you spend them?

That's a really good question.

You know, Chase Ultimate Rewards is still a really strong program.

We've seen a lot of in the last 10 years programs like Capital One and City vastly improve what they offer, but Chase still has their finger on the pulse of what people want.

With that said, I do think Built, if I had to choose a program that for 100,000 points, it'd be Built Rewards simply because they are doing some really innovative things in the travel space.

Not only do they have some mix of partners that you won't see anywhere else, you know, United and Hyatt, both in the same program, but just what they're doing as far as rent day bonuses, their new travel portal.

It's just unlike any other company in the world.

They're truly innovating in the travel space.

So, if I had to pick one program, it'd probably be built.

Interesting.

Are you a renter?

I am not a renter.

Wow, and you still say built.

I know.

And that's what people, it's interesting because people do think, oh, Built has a credit card that you can earn points on rent.

And I do have that card.

You can earn built points not only with that card, Built now has a way where you can earn points without having any of their cards.

You can use your own credit or debit card to earn built points.

It's a program called Built Neighborhood Benefits.

You simply sign up for it.

It's totally free.

You can put all of your credit and even debit cards in it.

And when you shop at Built's Partners, which can include Walgreens, which can include Lyft, which can include all sorts of restaurants around the country, you get extra built points on top of whatever you're earning with your credit card.

So it's literally stacking extra rewards for free.

It's a great way to earn some extra points for no cost at all.

Wow.

You know, you, Julian, might have told me on Built.

I am also, I'm not a renter and Megan, my podcast co-host, loves Built, but she's a renter.

So I've always written it off because I don't want to just have another program to mess around with.

But if you're saying it's the best and you also are not a renter, maybe I got to think about built.

There's a lot of good opportunity with Built, and they are, I believe, they keep saying they are coming up with mortgages.

I think we'll see it sooner rather than later.

So if you're a homeowner and you're looking to pay a mortgage, that will eventually, I think, be a good way to earn lots of build points.

I am changed.

This went on longer than Rapid Fire, but that's okay because I learned something.

Sorry.

I had too much to say.

I love it.

Okay.

What's the top trending destination you're predicting for 2026?

It's funny.

We are seeing actually, because we in our data, we see a lot of search trends.

Hawaii is very popular here coming into the holidays.

Also, Caribbean destinations have ticked up a bit.

Seeing less interest to places like Spain.

Prices to going to Barcelona and Madrid are down year over year.

So if you're looking for a cheap vacation, that could be a good choice.

If you're looking for a popular destination, head to the Hawaiian Islands.

I do love Hawaii.

All right.

Final rapid fire.

One award travel myth that you think needs to die?

You know what?

I'm actually going to take that to broadly travel, which is that there is no specific day of the week that will get you a better deal, either with points or dollars for buying your ticket.

Now, with that said, there are days of the week that that you can travel that will be cheaper.

Traveling on a Tuesday or a Wednesday, you are probably going to pay less than you will if you're traveling on a Friday or Sunday.

And that's just because of demand.

Business travelers are trying to get home on Fridays and back out on the road on Sundays.

So those are higher demand days.

They cost more.

Travel midweek and you'll pay less.

But booking your ticket.

Doesn't matter.

Airfares change by the minute, by the second sometimes.

It doesn't matter what day you book.

You're better off monitoring fares with Google Flights, with points path, set alerts, and just pounce when the price is right.

It gives me anxiety, my friends who will still say something like, I need to stay up until midnight on Sunday to book my flight because I heard that's the cheapest time to book.

I'm like, I'm asleep on midnight and midnight on Sunday.

Maybe if you went back 40 years, that would be true, but it's not true today.

Do you think that logic still applies to points?

I know a lot of people say point availability will drop a certain number of days or months out.

The one thing to keep in mind with points availability, there's usually two places where you're going to find the best deals.

You're not guaranteed to.

One is when the schedule very first opens, which is usually roughly about 330, 360 days out from departure, and then the very last minute.

And that simply, again, comes down to supply and demand.

If an airline sees that there are seats on a flight that are empty, that are going to go out unsold, and those seats are then lost forever, you can't recapture them, they're more likely to make them more available with fewer points or with points on a partner level, whatever it might be.

So last minute can also be a really good time to snag a great points deal.

That's so funny you say that because I often always say, you cannot find last minute cash deals, but last minute points deals is totally different.

It is because the last minute cash deals go up because of business travelers who have to travel on a specific day and whose companies are paying for it anyway.

So they don't really care.

But companies don't book business travel with points.

So points tends to move the opposite direction.

Great tips.

This is Julian Keel, creator of Points Path.

Julian, thanks so much for joining us.

Thanks so much, Sally.

You know, our producer, Tess, just said she's downloading PointsPath right now as we speak.

We've created so many new converts.

And no, PointsPath did not pay us her anything to even be on this show.

This truly is just one of our favorite travel tools.

It is one of those tools that has great functionality, even if you just use a free version.

And I will say, I only use their free version.

Maybe we'll have to splurge for the upgraded one.

Someone make room in that smart travel budget.

Speaking of smart travel budget, listeners, please help us grow.

I see what you did there and that is great.

Okay, but yes, if you do not already, subscribe to follow smart travel on your favorite podcast app, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Night HeartRadio.

That way you automatically download new episodes.

And if you do subscribe already, take it one step further and leave us a comment and a five-star rating.

Five stars would definitely be great, but we do also appreciate your honest opinions.

And if you love this show, tell a friend.

Maybe you have someone who needs to know about Points Path.

Let's also give some credit to the people who really make this happen.

We not talk on these mics without them.

Yes, big thank you to our producers Tess Viglund and Hilary Georgie.

Claire Soci helped with fact-checking and Nick Charissimi mixes our audio.

And of course, that disclaimer, we are not financial or investment advisors.

This information is offered only for general educational and entertainment purposes.

We hope you're inspired to keep your passport full and your wallet even fuller.

Thanks everyone.

We'll see you next week.

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