LEGENDS OF HAWAI'I: Madame Pele (with Lopaka Kapanui)

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Speaker 1 Aloha, e como my

Speaker 1 so supernatural listeners. I'm Rasha Pecarrero.
And I'm Yvette Gentile. And do we have a surprise for y'all?

Speaker 1 We have the most beautiful and amazing human we have ever encountered in our entire lives sitting right next to us. And his name is Lopaka Kaponui.
He is a native Hawaiian storyteller, Konaka Maoli.

Speaker 1 He is an author, an actor, a kumahula, a cultural practitioner, former professional wrestler.

Speaker 1 What is that doing in there?

Speaker 1 And Lopaka is a proud husband, father, and grandfather.

Speaker 1 Sometimes known as the ghost guy, Lopaka makes a business of leading guests into some of the darkest, spookiest, and dare I say, supernatural places on the island of Oahu, in our hometown in Honolulu, Hawaii.

Speaker 1 Aloha. Aloha,

Speaker 1 it's nice to meet the both of you. Well, we've met previously,

Speaker 1 what, almost 12 hours ago.

Speaker 1 On a night market tour. Yes.
On a ghost tour. With Mysteries of Hawaii, which was absolutely incredible.
Thank you. Yes, it was fantastic.
You know, it was so

Speaker 1 profound and so beautiful to hear the stories that you were telling and to walk the path and to feel the energy. But just the history, the history that you tell, it's so needed, Lopaka.

Speaker 1 It is so needed. So tell us a little bit about how you go preparing for the ghost tours or how it started started for you and why you're doing it?

Speaker 1 The short story is

Speaker 1 my biological mother had things she wanted to pass on. And

Speaker 1 the even shorter story is, in the process of passing it on, I wasn't allowed to write anything. I couldn't record anything.

Speaker 1 So it was basically my kohanaka iike. You know, I talk you listen and you absorb it.
So some lessons were like 20 minutes and other lessons were like until the sun came up.

Speaker 1 Every single lesson at the end, my mama would say, okay, now tell me everything I just said. Like,

Speaker 1 she's like, everything. It's like, oh, my God.

Speaker 1 But now, you know, and all these years later, like, I said,

Speaker 1 but it's so deeply embedded in your spirit, though, right? You know, you don't even realize it. That's, you know, it's part of the

Speaker 1 fabric of who you are. It's almost like once I start, whether it's a ghost tour or a storytelling concert, something just clicks on

Speaker 1 and a lot of times when it's over like uh my wife will tell you i don't even remember anything happening in blackout yeah that's so interesting that you said that because we witnessed that last night on the tour you were absolutely

Speaker 1 absolutely we were we were all just mesmerized from the moment you started talking we were the whole group was just like

Speaker 1 Right? Transfixed. Yeah, transfixed is the perfect word, Rosh.
Yes.

Speaker 1 A lot of times after it's over, that, you know, beginning part about, you you know, if you've got issues with your father or, you know, any kind of medication. You heard me

Speaker 1 talk up. I was like, wait a second.
I'm like, wait a second. I'm like, am I allowed to be here?

Speaker 1 Because my colliana with my father is not good.

Speaker 1 Sometimes people are like, wait a minute, dramamine, methadone. I know, thallium.

Speaker 1 We were talking about that actually last night, right?

Speaker 1 Because, and we didn't get that on recording when you addressed that, you know, asking, you know, if anybody had particular situations going on and then when you said if you have an ex that is looking for you or trying to get to you or jealous like all of that started to make sense in that moment right yeah and the beauty of the whole thing as i was saying last night is the experience is up to you right you know i'm just the person leading the way so

Speaker 1 Everything you come with determines what happens and what doesn't happen. So some nights, nothing, which is like the best nights.
And other nights, everybody has stuff and

Speaker 1 everything goes to heck.

Speaker 1 It was a beautiful night. I definitely felt it at night when I was sleeping.
And I felt like there was a sitting ghost with me on my leg last night.

Speaker 1 And I didn't remember it until my sister asked me this morning, how did you sleep? And that's why I had to tell you that this morning. I'm like,

Speaker 1 I had a sitting ghost with me.

Speaker 1 Can you describe to me why you think that the sitting ghost was there? Well, a lot of people don't realize, and this is academically documented, everybody's inherently psychic.

Speaker 1 Everybody has some level of a psychic ability. And so that inherent psychic ability is like a muscle.
If you don't exercise it, it doesn't work.

Speaker 1 So at its core, your natural psychic ability is called intuition.

Speaker 1 Yes. And as we know, intuition is a lot more stronger in women than it is in men because

Speaker 1 men are dull. It takes us a while to get to the point.

Speaker 1 I mean, I wasn't going to say anything.

Speaker 1 Present company excluded.

Speaker 1 But women are right there. So it's a lot more prevalent, you know, with women than it is with men.
That's essentially what it is.

Speaker 1 And in your case, you're probably at a level where you don't even realize you've developed it to a certain point. So

Speaker 1 it's like I said, if you and me are in a ballroom full of people from Wisconsin, but we have the only two Hawaiian people. I'm going to find you.
Yeah. You're going to find me.
I'm going to find you.

Speaker 1 We're on the other side of the room.

Speaker 1 Our difficulty in communicating is because between us is all this dissonance. Right.

Speaker 1 So spirits are trying to talk to us all the time, but the reason they can't get through all the time is because we as human beings are focused on job, family, relationship, money.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 problems. Rights.
Everything that's humanly possible that prevents us from communicating the spirits. That's what it is.

Speaker 1 So if there's a spirit that's coming through that's trying to get you a message, but it can't because you're having all this stuff happening, it will go to the person closest to you who is your sister.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. So it might be your auntie.
It will tell her, can you tell Rasha? I don't mind when she come, leave food on my headstone, but please tell her, take it away. And the bugs.

Speaker 1 The bugs are driving me crazy. Yvette is much more receptive, I think, to the spirit world.
For sure. I get kind of scared about it.

Speaker 1 But as I've shared with you, we both, Yvette and I, desperately want like our mom, her spirit to visit us. And I feel like she's come in dreams, but I want to physically feel her.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we were talking about that last night on the tour with another woman that was on the tour. And she was saying that, I want to see it.
I want to see the ghost. I want to feel the ghost.

Speaker 1 And I said, Rasha, you know, especially Rasha, she wants mom to come and pull her hair because mom said

Speaker 1 she's going to do that, right?

Speaker 1 And I think that, yes, we want that, but there are times that when you're sleeping or you feel their presence.

Speaker 1 I know that when I fall asleep and something may be going on and I'm just calling out to mom, like, help me, mom, help me, mom. And I can feel her touching my head.

Speaker 1 You know, and sometimes you think, well, is that just in my mind? Am I just conjuring this up? But the reality is, no, I'm not. She is there.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, whether you know it or not.

Speaker 1 I mean, she's there all the time. But for us as human beings, we have to get ourselves to a certain point where we're not so laden laden down with all this extra stuff.

Speaker 1 That's what leaves you in this capacity to receive communication from your mom or whoever it is that's trying to get through.

Speaker 1 How old were you when you first recognized that you could feel or see spirit?

Speaker 1 You really want to know that answer? I would love to. Okay.

Speaker 1 When I was six years old, I was adopted by a... Portuguese Catholic family.

Speaker 1 So when I would go to the bathroom, there was blood. So I had to go to children's hospital to take care of that.
Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1 So the short story is when I was in the hospital, there's a kid next to me, and his name was Scotty Boyd, and he was famous because he was on this TV commercial.

Speaker 1 The commercial was him sitting on this fence at Parker Ranch, and his dad was playing Taukule, and, you know, Scott was singing this song. On Hova'i Island.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so that's, you know, that's how he was a celebrity. So we'd play all the time.
One evening before dinner, on his side of the ward, there's, you know, light shining this way.

Speaker 1 So here comes a doctor, his parents, and they come up to his bed and they close the partition between us, this white curtain. So because there's this light on this side, you can see all their shadows.

Speaker 1 And there's crying and just grieving. And then I see all the shadows leave.
I can see Scotty's silhouette like this on the bed.

Speaker 1 And I see him get up like this, and he gets off this side of the bed and comes around this way. And on this, his side of the curtain, he's going, friend, friend, let's go play.
Come on.

Speaker 1 It's like, they left. Let's go play.

Speaker 1 So I'm swinging my feet over to get off the bed and up until that point every afternoon my adopted father's mom grandma lucy would come and sit with me until they would show up like an hour before she'd leave

Speaker 1 and as i'm going to get off the bed i hear her voice from behind me she's get off that bed and i think it's strange because she was supposed to have left at five and i i saw her i said why she goes you know what's paying attention to what was happening I said, no, she said, that boy, Make, he died.

Speaker 1 So she said, you get off that bed, your feet touch the floor, you go play with that boy, you never come back.

Speaker 1 So she said, you stay right there, don't move no matter what happens. And so there's Scott, his shadow on the other side of the curtain going, friend, friend, let's go play.

Speaker 1 And then it just stopped. And then a couple of days later, there's this 11-year-old kid in this side of the ward.
He was from Makiki.

Speaker 1 So this guy went downstairs to the kitchen after lunch and stole like a six pack of Coke, Coca-Cola. Okay.
And remember, Coke was a real thing back then. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 All the sugar, all the things.

Speaker 1 There we are on the steps, you know, hiding down the steps and we're drinking Coca-Cola. And me with my kidney condition.

Speaker 1 Is that what you had? Yeah. When you're in the hospital.
Okay. So I ended up having to go get surgery.
So during the surgery, I remember being on the table in this spotlight.

Speaker 1 And on the outer perimeter of the spotlight, I can hear My friend Scotty going, no, no, no, I'll take him. I'll take him.

Speaker 1 And then this, and my grandmother's voice voice going, no, no, I will take him.

Speaker 1 And then this woman's voice saying, no, no, he's coming with me. And I heard my grandma Lucy say, no, I will take him for life.

Speaker 1 And I remember coming out of the surgery, and I'm still kind of groggy, but I hear my adoptive mom talking to the doctor. And the doctor said, yeah, we lost him.
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, but we brought him back. And my adoptive mom said, for how long? He said, oh, I think less than a minute.
Wow. And I remember her screaming at him, what do you mean less than a minute?

Speaker 1 You know, so ever since then, it became a lot more prevalent than it was before. From the age of six.
From the age of six.

Speaker 1 So when I finally met my biological mom, that's one of the things I told her.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 she said to me, oh, it's because you're Hawaiian. I was like,

Speaker 1 yeah. She goes, you know, later, when, you know, one year older, I'll tell you, she goes, but she goes, don't worry, it's because you're Hawaiian.

Speaker 1 She said, but I'll explain it later. So once I started to learn from her, she said, it's who we are.
wow, as a people. She said, I cannot speak for the whole race of Hawaiian.

Speaker 1 She said, I can only tell you what's in our family, your lineage, yeah. And so, yeah, that's how it all started.
So, I feel a short story

Speaker 1 as you're telling that story, the light is flickering over there.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 so do we need to do it only?

Speaker 1 Yes,

Speaker 1 yes.

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Speaker 1 Well, I would love to ask because

Speaker 1 I know that you are a direct descendant of Madame Pele.

Speaker 1 And I personally and my sister Yvette, we've always, always

Speaker 1 been

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 engrossed, enthralled. Just so drawn to our So drawn to Madame Pele.
We have artists in our home. Yeah, we both have a big painting of her.
You know, I have one in my studio.

Speaker 1 You have one in your living room, which is given to us by our mother, Fauna Hodel. Wow.
And we've always had this affinity. Affinity.
Yeah, this connection to her. So can you tell us?

Speaker 1 A little bit about the legend of Pele. And your connection together.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 on my mother's side, our connection to Pele is through the kuhuna of Pele.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 the story goes that Pele and her siblings are born from different parts of their mother's body, Houmea.

Speaker 1 And so, as Pele is growing up, her older sister is Namako Kaha'i, the goddess of the ocean, so they don't get along.

Speaker 1 Not like us. Yeah, not like us, you know.

Speaker 1 So Houmea said, look, you stay on this side of the island, your sister will be on the other side. You guys just stay out of each other's way.

Speaker 1 And the person who eventually teaches Pele how to stoke the fires of the volcano is her uncle, Lono Makua.

Speaker 1 And in one legend, it says that Namako Kahi's husband was this Ali'i, Aukele Nui Aiku, and that at some point when Namako was away, Pele just happened to wander on her sister's side of the island and she got together with Aukele and you know they did biology together.

Speaker 1 Yeah, biology.

Speaker 1 We all know what biology is.

Speaker 1 And so that's strike one.

Speaker 1 Huge strike.

Speaker 1 Strike two is when Lono Makua is having another lesson with Pele, how to stoke the fires, call it forth, calm it down.

Speaker 1 And he says all of a sudden,

Speaker 1 I forgot, I have an appointment. I'll be right back.
So just wait here. And like, you know, Fantasia, Mickey Mouse the Apprentice.

Speaker 1 Pele is like stoking the fires. Fires get out of control and it burns down her sister's side of the island

Speaker 1 and kills everybody.

Speaker 1 So when Pele goes to her mother, Haumea, and says, oh, awe,

Speaker 1 you know, this is what happened. And Haumea says,

Speaker 1 she says, okay, look, she says, this is not going to turn out good for you, so you have to leave. And so she tells Pele, get all of your siblings.

Speaker 1 The canoe, Honua Iakea, will be waiting for you and your brother, Kamoa Li'i, the shark, will guide the way. But make sure you get everyone that belongs to you.
And so the canoe is ready to sail.

Speaker 1 and Haumea says, you can't leave now. You have to wait until sidereal time.

Speaker 1 Then you go. When sidereal is that? So explain that.
According to Haumea, it was the time when, you know, kepo kala, it's like the sun is directly overhead and it casts no shadow.

Speaker 1 She said, during that time, you leave.

Speaker 1 And the time comes and Pele is leaving with all of her siblings and she jumps off the canoe and goes to like her mama. And her mama says, don't look back.
Just go.

Speaker 1 You know, we'll see each other again. And so

Speaker 1 Pele took off. So of course, when Namaka gets back and sees all of this devastation, she's like,

Speaker 1 mom doesn't even stop her. So Pele is being pursued across the Pacific by this giant tidal wave with Namaka and her two mo'o, you know, her dragons.
And so when Pele arrives to Nihua,

Speaker 1 she can't make a volcano because it's too small.

Speaker 1 And so she goes to Niihau, and this isn't one version that I heard growing up. On Ni'ihau, she sees perhaps she cannot make a volcano either.

Speaker 1 So she leaves her one of her brothers, the shark god, Kuhai Muana,

Speaker 1 and says to him, You become the guardian of these Ni'ihau people.

Speaker 1 Because if my sister comes to inundate the island, you know, it's through no fault of theirs. It is mine.
So she says, Protect them and be their aumakua.

Speaker 1 So today on the island of Ni'ihau, the Ni'ihau people are not afraid of sharks. And so next Pele goes to Oahu

Speaker 1 and tries to make a volcano. And Namakokai shows up and heals out the fire.
So Salt Lake, Aliapa'akai, was an actual lake of sea salt,

Speaker 1 which she tried to dig out. So today, when the volcano is erupting, there's Pele sightings in Salt Lake,

Speaker 1 you know, in the neighborhood. But she stops at Ka'aaba.

Speaker 1 And so they take a break and Pele's like, you know, guys, take a break, you know, ho'oma Lia, ya ooko, you know, yaoko iho.

Speaker 1 She said, oh, you know, so they're taking a break. And as they're leaving, Pele has this pet dog, size like of a baby elephant.

Speaker 1 And so she says to this Ilio, she says, you wait for me until I come back. And the dog says, when will I know this?

Speaker 1 She said, when you see a raging orb of fire through the night sky, she says, that will be me. And that is my return.

Speaker 1 So the dog climbed on this hill and waited so long, he turned to stone.

Speaker 1 So the people of the area didn't know the dog's name, so they called him Kauhi Mako Nalanyi, the red-eyed one who gazes toward the heavens. So today that's the crouching lion.

Speaker 1 We just drove by there yesterday, and that's always been such a magical place for us. So growing up, we would always take a drive around the island.
We'd go there, we'd have lunch, and I'm a Leo.

Speaker 1 So every time,

Speaker 1 as is Lofaka. Oh, yes, as is Lofaka.
I fell lonely. And our beautiful mom, Fanoita.

Speaker 1 But I was always drawn to that area. Always.

Speaker 1 always, right, Rasha? So it's yes, always. So it's not a lion, it's an ilio, it's a dog.

Speaker 1 It's Pele's dog. Pele's dog.

Speaker 1 How sacred. I know.
Wow.

Speaker 1 It's like, we never had lions in ancient Hawaii. Right.
Right.

Speaker 1 But now looking back, like, we just drove by there yesterday. Yeah.
Like, it looks like an ilio. It looks like a dog.
Right, right, right. A crouching.
A crouching dog. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So he's still waiting for her.

Speaker 1 And so, you know, pool lineup, Punch Bowl, Leahi, Diamond Head, peeled out. You know, Pele was unsuccessful.
Right.

Speaker 1 And even like Moloka Ilanai, Kaho'olabe are just unsuccessful. So when she gets to Maui, you know, at that point, she's like, you know what, I've had it.

Speaker 1 So she's going to turn and fight. And she does.
She fights bravely, but because Namaka has her two mo'o,

Speaker 1 they end up killing Pele. and they scatter her bones at a place called Kaivio Pele in Hana.
Oh. And so Pele's family take her bones and they deify her through this ceremony called kupaku.

Speaker 1 So they're taking the mana of her bones and they're going to deify her into an aumakua, into a god. And so that's how she becomes Pele, the goddess of fire.
Wow.

Speaker 1 So when Namaka looked toward Hogai Island and saw, you know, just this fountain of flames from what is now Kilaoya, she knew, okay, you know, I can't kill my sister now.

Speaker 1 And so there's sort of like this, this thing, all right, you know, you, you do you, I'll do me.

Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah, we'll leave each other alone.
And there's been peace ever since between them? Pretty much. And I find it's funny, like when hurricanes are coming with, you know, rains and horrible waters,

Speaker 1 the big island always buffers that hurricane. Right.
So the rest of the archipelago

Speaker 1 doesn't feel it. So a lot of people who are from places like Kalapana or Kau when the volcano is erupting, they won't say the volcano is erupting.
They will say Pele is having her Mu'y.

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 1 She's been having her Mu'yi a lot lately. A lot.

Speaker 1 But as my mom said, you know, she has her Mu'i. There's nothing you can do about it.
You just gotta wait. Yeah, you gotta let her

Speaker 1 bleed, literally. Yeah.
Because, you know,

Speaker 1 the earth is a woman. But after all that devastation, you know, new life takes place, new growth.
Right. Right.
You know, so that's the beauty of this duality of Pele. She's a destroyer, a cure,

Speaker 1 an eater of land and soil. But when everything's over, it's new life again.
Right.

Speaker 1 It's a circle of life. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 It's also sort of indicative of, you know, the circle of life and death. Right.

Speaker 1 Death happens, so life can begin in you. I have a...
a question for you.

Speaker 1 I mean, I'd love to know more, of course, about, you know, your Amokua and how you are a descendant of pele but on a personal level i just want to know if this is something that you think actually happened so you know yvette and i have different fathers and i always went 50-50 between my father and stepmother and we lived in manoa from when i was the age of five until 15 and then we moved to wailaiki and then you know the other 50 of the time i was with mom and yvet and we lived all over um the island of oahu

Speaker 1 but in manoa

Speaker 1 even though I felt like Manoa protected me, inside the home was very tumultuous. And I still have nightmares about it.

Speaker 1 I still have all these things that happen to me that I'm processing through therapy and all the things. But when I was in the Walaiki home, there were two things that were supernatural that happened.

Speaker 1 Well, more than two things, but two big things that I wanted to ask you about. So one of them was we had three bedrooms and it was only me, my father and my stepmother.

Speaker 1 And in one of the bedrooms, we would always see little Menehune footprints by the window. And it was, you know, parallel to the ground.

Speaker 1 We'd always see the footprints. And I'm like, what is that? I mean, and my dad would like vacuum like crazy on the carpet and the footprints every morning would come back.

Speaker 1 So like I always was convinced that Menehune were like, were there and it felt like a very like spiritual land.

Speaker 1 And the reason I tell you that story is just because I always felt protected. I was never hit in that home.
I

Speaker 1 had emotional and verbal abuse in that home, but I just felt like there was a barrier trying to protect me. And my father used to say that he would be visited in the shower by tutupele.

Speaker 1 And my dad is a big Hauli guy. He moved here in the 70s, you know, like he, he wouldn't say tutupele, but I'm saying that respectfully.

Speaker 1 He would say, I think Pele is talking to me in the shower she's got you know the the salt and pepper like hair the bun the long white dress and i've never heard him say that he was scared before and he said he was scared of her and for me like i kind of giggled inside i was like oh it was like a warning call to him like madame pele yep i'm like madame pele is protecting me And that's, you know, the first time like I tried to speak up.

Speaker 1 I tried to get mom and, you know, Yvette to get like full custody of me. And then I backed down because I was too scared.
But do you think that Madame Pele and the Menuhune were really there?

Speaker 1 Or do you think it was more of just, I mean, he smoked a lot of pakalolo too.

Speaker 1 There is that. There is that.

Speaker 1 But the Menehune footprints, I physically saw for myself. And I had other, you know, things that happened in that home that I knew there was a Makua or some type of spirit watching over me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there are Menuhune in that area.

Speaker 1 From Walaiki to what's the Bear Estate? It's right next to Calvary by the Sea. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Like almost to Ainahaina. Yeah.
So the Bear Estate

Speaker 1 was used in Hawaii Fibo as Steve McGarrett's house. Right.

Speaker 1 The original Mawai Filo.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Lord days. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 It's a place where they have Japanese weddings. Right.
So it's a two-story, really nice little place on the beach. And I know the owner.

Speaker 1 And so one year she allowed me to have this ghost story thing at the Bear Estate.

Speaker 1 And when it was over, she says, you know, can I share some stories with you? I'm like, oh, absolutely. And she brings out these pictures and she's handing it to everybody.

Speaker 1 So she says, you know, nobody knows this, but, you know, there's many huni on this property.

Speaker 1 And so the husband is a retired attorney. And when Susan's done telling her part of it, husband says, I'm a retired attorney.

Speaker 1 I grew up in a Japanese family, plantation Japanese family, like very, very samurai.

Speaker 1 You know, we don't have time for this kind of thing.

Speaker 1 And he said, you know, when the wedding guests come, the bride goes upstairs, does her makeup and all that, then they come here on the beach to get married.

Speaker 1 And he said, one day I'm bringing the bouquet up. And he said, the stairs are like this.
And, you know, you can see between the stairs.

Speaker 1 And he said, he looked down and he said, there's this little boy, like this tall. And he said, dark, dark skin, like black shiny hair, like big eyes.

Speaker 1 And he said, when he did a double take, he said, it's not a little boy, it's a man,

Speaker 1 fully formed man, like over there. And he said, it took off, he chased that criter.
It was gone.

Speaker 1 wow and so he said it kept happening with such frequency that you know they're kind of freaked out you know should we close down the business and so the husband asked me like you know what what should we do because it's still happening

Speaker 1 said

Speaker 1 you have to leave out a certain type of pink banana as an offering starchy one uh hiho lena and then uh particular kind of shrimp if you can find it. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 So you see, you leave out those two things. You should be fine.
Raw or cooked shrimp? Raw. Okay.

Speaker 1 And, you know, when you make the offerings, you know, just I'm so-and-so. Here's my offering.
You know, call it my, let's work together.

Speaker 1 And so I'm standing here. Everybody's seated here.
Susan, her husband are talking over here. And I glance this way in the living room, just, you know, momentarily.

Speaker 1 You know how this leg is on this table?

Speaker 1 Low to the ground, yeah. So table's kind of taller, but you know, the table leg.

Speaker 1 And I glance and I see this little Hawaiian boy, dark, dark skin, leads up to his chest, shiny hair, big eyes like this.

Speaker 1 And he looks at me and he goes like this. He goes,

Speaker 1 he blinked. He blinked and then he got up and walked that way.
And it's like this tall. It's like, it's a better hone.

Speaker 1 So I didn't know what to do. I had a cream sickle.
So in the Hawaiian in my mind, and like,

Speaker 1 opening this cream sickle, like you can't do it.

Speaker 1 So I'm validated, knowing that there there were men in Hune in Waileiki. What do we think about Tutupele? Well, plus, you know,

Speaker 1 what's that place?

Speaker 1 Cocohead? Yes.

Speaker 1 You know the story of Cocohead? No. No.
That's Cohele Pelepe.

Speaker 1 I'm going to turn beat red. So I see it happening right now.

Speaker 1 You know, I said last night, you know, I'm a gentleman. I don't swear in front of women.
Yeah. So this is not swearing, but Kohele Pelepe is that

Speaker 1 he really really is.

Speaker 1 And he's a beautiful, gorgeous,

Speaker 1 Hawaiian dark-skinned man.

Speaker 1 He is pink for sure.

Speaker 1 It's just a photo of me right now. I have to.

Speaker 1 Let me put it to you this way.

Speaker 1 Pele got involved with this guy that her family told her was absolutely the wrong guy.

Speaker 1 And you know, when you tell your family member that's the wrong person, the first thing they do is

Speaker 1 we know this very well.

Speaker 1 I should say I do. You do.

Speaker 1 So, of course, you know, when it's the wrong person,

Speaker 1 this person ends up living with Pele. It doesn't have Pele live with them.

Speaker 1 And so, this person is Kamapua, the pig god.

Speaker 1 So, when they consummate the relationship, like the lovemaking goes on like weeks and weeks.

Speaker 1 It's just good being a god. Yeah, get it, girl.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 But at some point, Pele is like, lava, pow, that's enough. But Kamapua is like, no.

Speaker 1 I only took this part of the blue pill it's like it's gone

Speaker 1 now we're turning red

Speaker 1 so at some point Kamapoa is like restraining her he's starting to bite her to hold her down

Speaker 1 and so Pele's sister Kapo'ule Kina'u sees this and knows her sister's in trouble

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 She removes her own personal body part and waves it in front of the pig God like this to the children.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then takes her kohe

Speaker 1 and throws it

Speaker 1 until it lands where Coco Head Crater is now.

Speaker 1 What? Kohelepelepe. The flying.

Speaker 1 So Kamopua chases that thing and the second it lands, he's like just, you know, going to town on it. Wow.

Speaker 1 So, um.

Speaker 1 So it's like the flying bunani? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, kohe is here.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 As Roger Daltrey said, you're a squeeze box.

Speaker 1 Something I didn't know I was going to learn today.

Speaker 1 Mama never sleeps at night. So a couple of years ago, well, actually before COVID,

Speaker 1 two women asked me to perform their wedding ceremony at the beach on the reef at Sandy Beach. Oh, beautiful.
As the sun's coming up.

Speaker 1 I turn around and I see the back of

Speaker 1 Cocohead, Coejelette Lepe, and I tell them the the whole story. They're like, what? And I said,

Speaker 1 they're loving that.

Speaker 1 I said, look at the back of Coco Crater. I said, what does it look like? They're like,

Speaker 1 you're never going to be able to tell organized it again. They're going to drive straight there.
I was like, oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1 Listeners, Google Coco Head on the island of Oahu.

Speaker 1 That's your comment. I know.
But the back end, not the front end.

Speaker 1 They said, you know,

Speaker 1 warrants are coupon or just poetic geniuses. I mean, look at it.

Speaker 1 Oh, my goodness, that's so funny.

Speaker 1 So Pelle has, you know, dominion in that area as well. Wow.

Speaker 1 So if she was appearing to that man in the shower, in that capacity, she certainly had something to say.

Speaker 1 And it was several times. Yeah.
Several times.

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Speaker 1 I've always immersed myself in the Hawaiian culture. Like, I wanted to be kanaka maoli so bad.

Speaker 1 And there was rumors, our biological grandmother, she, you know, had told me that we had family from Moloka'i. So in my mind, I'm like, oh, I have cocoa.
We have Hawaiian blood. I'm like, I know it.

Speaker 1 I know it. I told you.
I told you. And then before our mom passed in 2017, we all did 23andMe DNA.

Speaker 1 Sure enough, no Hawaiian blood, no cocoa.

Speaker 1 But we did have a little bit of Japanese. Japanese, Korean,

Speaker 1 Spanish.

Speaker 1 Yeah. This blonde, blue-eyed girl is not all Hauli, is not all white.

Speaker 1 You know, I've always been taught to respect the Hawaiian culture that like, it's the only culture I know.

Speaker 1 And of course, you know, with mom and mom decided to raise Yvette Night in Hawaii because she didn't want us to experience any of the racism that she went through because she wasn't white enough.

Speaker 1 She wasn't black enough. Yeah, she felt Hawaii was the melting pot.
And when she came here, you know, the energy, the mana, right, and the aina, the land, you feel it.

Speaker 1 And she knew, she knew from that instant that this is where I want to raise my child, my children. She didn't have Rasha yet, but she had me, who was this biracial child.

Speaker 1 And she thought, this is the perfect place, you know?

Speaker 1 And, you know, I didn't get here till I was probably eight years old. And it was hard at first because we came from San Diego, you know, there's Disneyland, SeaWorld, all the things.

Speaker 1 But as I, you know, started to grow up here, like there's just something that is so magical.

Speaker 1 It's so precious that every time I come home and I come home often, as soon as I get off the plane, everything just melts away, you know?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 every day of our lives, we thank mom for

Speaker 1 bringing us here, making us crazy here in Hawaii. And she got Hawaii.
She got pregnant with me here. She even had

Speaker 1 an appointment to have an abortion. And she flew from Honolulu back to San Diego because she's like, this is the first white guy I've ever slept with.
Like, am I really going to have a kid?

Speaker 1 And I like, I don't know him. And I,

Speaker 1 she told me later that I came to her in a dream the night before she was supposed to have the abortion.

Speaker 1 And I remember it as, cause the way she described it, she said, I was, you know, five years old at the time. It looked like I ended up looking when I was five years old.

Speaker 1 And I remember saying, I'm supposed to make a difference in the world. Please, you know, save me.
I'm supposed to. She said you were screaming.
She said I was screaming.

Speaker 1 And so she was so scared that she had to have me. But I remember it romantically,

Speaker 1 which is not

Speaker 1 the truth.

Speaker 1 I want to be here.

Speaker 1 And so I truly believe that was the greatest gift was to be born in Honolulu, Hawaii and to have my sister by my side, even though mom's not here. And forever, forever.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And forever and always, you know, she united us so deeply and we will continue to carry her legacy with us wherever we go, you know?

Speaker 1 That's beautiful. It really is.

Speaker 1 So there's, you know, there's a purpose for you being here. I'm not sure if you guys are ever actually going to move back here.

Speaker 1 I know. We've talked about it many times.
I want to.

Speaker 1 I know. You know, but who knows, this might be actually the springboard to where you need to be financially to actually move back here.
That's so true. Yeah.
Yeah. Universe?

Speaker 1 Manifesting.

Speaker 1 We can podcast from anywhere. Anyway, that's the reason why your mom is hanging around.

Speaker 1 But she's just waiting for the both of you to get to the point where she can actually come through

Speaker 1 and say something. you know, do something physically.
So it's probably something that only the both of you would know. Yeah.
You know, that's specific to her. Yeah.

Speaker 1 My Kumuhula is Japanese. Last name is Miyasato.
He grew up in Hajaone when it was just pig farms and orchid farms.

Speaker 1 But he said growing up there,

Speaker 1 everybody, everybody, Hawaiian, Japanese, Filipino, Portuguese, he said everybody spoke Hawaiian. Olalo Hawaii.
So my Kumu's Ole Hawaii is that dialect from that time. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 You know, but he said everybody, even though they weren't Hawaiian, were Hawaiian. Everybody spoke it.
Like, it's not something unusual.

Speaker 1 And so he said, you know, that's, that's the beauty of this place: you know,

Speaker 1 once it gets a hold of you, you know, you become Hawaiian in ways you don't think you are Hawaiian, but you are. Yeah.
Yeah. So I think that's the case for the both of you.

Speaker 1 Tell our listeners more about Pele being Amakua to you or ohana to you.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 my sister explained it. She said in our in our lineage, part of our ohana on the kona side were kokuna to tupele.

Speaker 1 So it's through that lineage that our bloodline is tupele.

Speaker 1 In some circles they say that Pele and Komapua actually had a child. Oh.

Speaker 1 And the child's name began with Lono.

Speaker 1 Supposedly that's how the human connection comes into that line. I see.
So,

Speaker 1 and we have Lono in our bloodline. Was it Pai? Pai and Lono.

Speaker 1 So as my sister says it, when Kamehameha came into power, there was something about this priesthood that he felt was a threat. So when he came into power, he wanted to get rid of that priesthood.

Speaker 1 So as my sister said it to me, you know, that part of our family had to go underground

Speaker 1 and hide and try to live among commoners until this

Speaker 1 got over it. Wow.
But he eventually eventually got over it. I don't know.

Speaker 1 I mean, there are some of us still around, which explains why. In the late 80s, early 90s, my mama went home to Kalawa, which is upland in Kona,

Speaker 1 to visit her Auntie Mary Green. They wanted to surprise Auntie, so they didn't tell her they were coming.
And my mama says, you know, as she's walking up the steps from inside the house,

Speaker 1 she hears my auntie going, Oui, Komo Mai, come inside. My mom said, how do you know we're coming? She said, the wind told me you're coming.

Speaker 1 And so a couple of days later, they're all going to go drive to Hilo to go shopping. And my mom wanted to stay home.
You know, she was tired. And she said,

Speaker 1 just sitting down in the living room, you know, enjoying her solitude. And there's this knock on the door.
And from outside, she can hear,

Speaker 1 we're the people in this house.

Speaker 1 And so my mom said, she went to the front door and she said, standing there, beautiful, beautiful Hawaiian girl,

Speaker 1 dark skin and just black, black, curly hair. And she said, and the hair was like flecks of epu.

Speaker 1 And she said, almost looks like flames. And the girl is wearing this kikapa.
And she said the material was like black with red designs. And the girl is barefoot.

Speaker 1 And so the girl asked if

Speaker 1 there was any

Speaker 1 cold water.

Speaker 1 you know, with ice. And my mom went to go get it.

Speaker 1 And she said, but the ice in the tray tray hadn't frozen over so she when she came back she told the girl you know ice is not ready yet but i still have you know this water and the girl took it and she said when the girl touched the cup this film of ice formed over it

Speaker 1 and she drank it and gave it back to my mom and my mom said when she grabbed it you know an ice is like really you know kind of like your fingers stick to it yes

Speaker 1 she said the girl said mahalo you know mahalo nui And so my mom said, where did you come from? And the girl said, I've been walking.

Speaker 1 So I was, you know, Vela, I just, you you know, Makewai was thirsty.

Speaker 1 The girl said, but, you know, I'm going now. And so the girl is like going down the driveway and she starts walking up this way.

Speaker 1 My mom asked her, yeah, where are you going? She goes, oh, my home is over there. And my mom said, that's nothing but ah, it's like dry lava.

Speaker 1 And so my mom said, why don't you wait? I'll go bring the car around and I'll take you. And the girl is gone.

Speaker 1 So when my auntie then came home, my mama told her what happened. And Auntie said, oh, that makes sense.
He said, we stuck in Hale Ma'u Ma'o. We had to make, you know, ho'okupu to Pele.

Speaker 1 And she said, since he wasn't there, she said, I made one ho'okupu for you. So when I pull it and I throw the ho'okupu inside, the wind brought it back.

Speaker 1 So she said, maybe Pele wanted to see why you never come.

Speaker 1 And my mom was like, just draw to the ground.

Speaker 1 And so. My mom said, yeah.

Speaker 1 That was Pele. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But she said, during that encounter, like, she doesn't remember sounds, smells. It's just like everything was like hyper-focused on this one thing that was happening.
Wow.

Speaker 1 So in 2005, when we're living off of Date Street,

Speaker 1 we're coming back. And so I drop off my daughter and her mom at our apartment.
And I go park on Date Street, across the football field from Kaimuki High School.

Speaker 1 And so I get out of the car on the driver's side.

Speaker 1 And as I close the car door and look over the hood on the other side of this old Hawaiian lady and she's kind of funky the way she's dressed because you know throwing like sweater yeah and plaid skirt and these mud boots you know from the 60s

Speaker 1 like this woman is crazy wow but Hawaiian woman and she goes polo bow she goes I'm hungry

Speaker 1 she goes take me to zippies

Speaker 1 girl after my own heart

Speaker 1 so I said well I'm going to the jack in the box capuhulu so you know I can take you to the zippy she goes no not that one the one in Mahewa. No.
Oh. So I said, oh, Tutu, I'm not going that way.

Speaker 1 She goes, but, you know, polole, maki pololi, I don't want to go that zippy. Insisting.
So I glanced down and I noticed that in the back seat, my daughter left her cheese pizza from Chuck E. Cheese.

Speaker 1 So I went like this and I said,

Speaker 1 Tutu, have cheese pizza if you want it. And she's gone.

Speaker 1 So Date Street is situated in such a way that no matter where anybody walks, you can see them coming and going. Right.

Speaker 1 So she's gone. A second later, this, this car just like

Speaker 1 Zoom isn't even the word. It goes by me so fast, like, you know, the jet wash, like, kind of like pushes you.
Yeah. And it blows the traffic light in the intersection, it gets T-boned.

Speaker 1 So that was supposed to be me. Wow.
So she protected you.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it turns out when, you know, The old Hawaiian woman appears for a ride or for food, I always tell people, no matter what she's asking, give it to her. Give her the ride.

Speaker 1 give her the food, whatever she wants. I said, because those two or three minutes that she's saving you from something worse.
Wow. And that's toutupel.
That's tout.

Speaker 1 Even today, I would think, why would she wear a turtleneck sweater?

Speaker 1 Fat skirt and mod boots.

Speaker 1 I know I'm used to her in like a turtleneck, like white, not turtleneck, but the high-collared, white, you know, beautiful like dress. But then I thought, maybe that's why she appeared like that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because you're like, who is

Speaker 1 doing

Speaker 1 this crazy clothes? WTF. Right, right.
Made you stop, right? Yeah. Yeah.
And that was in 2005. 2005, you know.
And the belt didn't match the shoes, but who cares?

Speaker 1 But you remember. You remember

Speaker 1 as I would. You remember.
But, you know, that's how our kupuna, our ancestors work from the other side. Whether you need help or you need that moment of affirmation

Speaker 1 or knowing you have to go right, but you intend on going left.

Speaker 1 You know, that's what they're doing.

Speaker 1 And sometimes they have to come through and physically slap you on the head. What are you doing?

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Speaker 1 Our extended ohana, our extended family is very complicated. We have a lot of generational trauma.
That trauma was power. It stuck with our mom.
Our mom just radiated pure light.

Speaker 1 Like how you said last night, how the light always overpowers the darkness. That was our mom.

Speaker 1 And so for me,

Speaker 1 Now she, I just wanted to ask you, like, she's now an ancestor because she's passed on, right? And we can,

Speaker 1 because I always want to do everything, pono and everything from a place of aloha and love and represent her and that this is our dream job working together and yeah yeah and it was created through her you know how how it all began was because of her so I just want to make sure that she's the only ancestor that's with us and not the scary ones or are the scary ones still there and we have to learn to

Speaker 1 here's the thing when you're asking for protection prayers guidance

Speaker 1 yeah from your ancestors. No matter what the circumstance was in life, they're still your family.
So you ask everybody.

Speaker 1 And everybody has to come. Because in our culture, when you ask with sincerity, with intention, they're obligated.
They have to come

Speaker 1 and protect you. So even your jerk uncle.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 your jerk stepfather, you know, they have to come too because you're asking and they're obligated, no matter what the circumstance.

Speaker 1 So you ask everybody and they'll come.

Speaker 1 And the great thing about communicating with our

Speaker 1 people

Speaker 1 is that even though they're no longer flesh and blood, the personality is still the same.

Speaker 1 So when you ask of these particular kinds of people who have passed, you talk to them the way you did in life.

Speaker 1 Same way you talked to them before, you speak to them now.

Speaker 1 And even if we didn't know them, still talk to them and give them

Speaker 1 respect, I guess.

Speaker 1 I have to let go of the pain. I'm coming from a place of

Speaker 1 healing.

Speaker 1 So your job now in this capacity, because this is all generated from your mom,

Speaker 1 is to express the kind of communication

Speaker 1 that makes a family whole and makes them

Speaker 1 tight-knit. I'm speaking only for myself, but You know, I found that it's because of a lack of communication that we have physical, mental abuse, and sometimes, you know, the other kind.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 my adopted father, I realized later on,

Speaker 1 was never given the tools to say, I love you

Speaker 1 or to hug. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So growing up, he made it a point to remind me all the time, you're not my real son. Oh, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1 So when we'd go out to restaurant or wherever we were going, you know, his friends would show up and he'd introduce my hanai mom you know my older hanai brothers but when he got to me he goes oh that's my adopted son

Speaker 1 and i remember in 1972 there was this thing

Speaker 1 uh father-son baseball thing where if you win you get to go all expense paid everything to go see the red socks oh wow so my hanai father saw that and went to my two older brothers and said hey let's go do that and you know my brother's like I got girlfriend, I got to work on my 55 Chevy.

Speaker 1 Well, and I was like, dad, dad, let's go. I'll do it.
He goes, oh, we can. He goes, but you're not my real son.

Speaker 1 And he showed me the article. He said, see, this is father and son.

Speaker 1 And so,

Speaker 1 you know, I promised myself if I ever had

Speaker 1 a child that I would never do that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But I also realized, you know, I was so intent on on seeking, receiving his love that I forgot to love myself.

Speaker 1 So for me, I believe that's where it begins, you know, with

Speaker 1 love for yourself first, because if you don't have that, how can you love anybody else? And maybe those people who abused us, they didn't get that. Yeah.
Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Speaker 1 So in a way, in spite of what they did, it's kind of not their fault. Right.
Hurt people hurt people. Yes.

Speaker 1 You break the cycle. Yeah.
And they can't give you what they don't have. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And you can't hold on to that anger because that will

Speaker 1 destroy you, you know, your light. That's just dimming your light.
That's funny.

Speaker 1 My adult sons that I share with my wife, her boys,

Speaker 1 I wait until they're not expecting it. And I go up to them and I grab them like, I love you.

Speaker 1 I love you.

Speaker 1 You know, they're kind of like taking it back. It's like, tell me you love me.

Speaker 1 It's like, oh, dad, what you gotta do do?

Speaker 1 Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1 And so, you know, my little grandsons, all his grandma, love you. I love you so much.
You know, and they're like scrambling out of my arms. And I'm like, you'll thank me one day.

Speaker 1 But that's what you're supposed to do. That's that's how you broke the cycle by loving yourself and passing that aloha on to your ohana.
And it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 I can tell it doesn't matter if someone is blood to you or not. They're your ohana.
Yeah. Yeah.
It doesn't matter that you didn't, you know, physically have them.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So when my um

Speaker 1 my grandkids,

Speaker 1 their grandparents like wanted to reconnect with them on Kawaii,

Speaker 1 our oldest granddaughter wanted to stay.

Speaker 1 And so I was upset because I said, those people don't deserve, you know, her love because they treated her mom and daughter-in-law like really bad and my wife too. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, you know, I told my wife, I said,

Speaker 1 you know, even though they're not biologically mine, like they're mine.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 They've been in my house. I raised them.
You know, they're kids. Like, they pooped on me.

Speaker 1 That's the ultimate.

Speaker 1 They did all the things. But like, they threw up at me.
I said, they're mine.

Speaker 1 She's like, I know. I appreciate it.
She goes, yeah, you know. Oh, my goodness.
Yeah. Oh, wow.
So family is, you know, extends well beyond, beyond cocoa. Yeah.
Yes. Beyond blood.

Speaker 1 But the universality of what you're sharing is just what's important.

Speaker 1 You know, if we raise those people coming up with clear communication, with a clear understanding that, you know, they're loved and they know how to love themselves. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's easy.

Speaker 1 And that's who our mother was. Yeah.
You know, despite all the hardship that she went through, she still loved everybody,

Speaker 1 you know?

Speaker 1 And that is what shined through her and what drew everyone to her.

Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying? And I feel the same way about you.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yes.

Speaker 1 But I feel the same way about you because I know that you've had a

Speaker 1 crazy,

Speaker 1 crazy upbringing and you are this leader and this true warrior.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 we are just so honored to know you and now love you.

Speaker 1 Same here, absolutely. I was just talking about war this morning to my second oldest son.
And I said, there's no glory in war, no matter how much they pay it. Like people have to die.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I said, and it's horrible that brilliant scientists, you know, generals are always finding new ways to kill other people. Right.
I said, that's easy. I said, that's easy.

Speaker 1 I said, but loving yourself and loving people,

Speaker 1 you know, and thinking about ways to make other people's lives easier, less complicated. I said, that's hard.

Speaker 1 I said, killing somebody is easy. It's not a problem.
But that other stuff,

Speaker 1 you know, because I told him, once you start realizing that you want to do better for people, I said, the scary thing that happens is you begin to realize, I want to do better for myself.

Speaker 1 And some people don't know how to do that. You know, it's sort of like disconcerting.
Wow, you know, really me?

Speaker 1 You know, I'm something I matter. I get that.

Speaker 1 It's unfathomable for some people, but, you know, this podcast that you're doing might actually help somebody get to that point.

Speaker 1 And that is, that is the goal. That is why we do what we do, you know? Yeah.
Absolutely. And went from madam Pele to healing the world.
Healing the world.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, she's this, this fiery woman that, of course, we know, but she's also very loving and all-encompassing.
Yes.

Speaker 1 So it's like, you know, in any situation, you know, once, once you're her family, that's it.

Speaker 1 You know, and woe betide the person who screws with Pele's family.

Speaker 1 Look out.

Speaker 1 But believe me, you know, I don't suffer fools either.

Speaker 1 You know, I don't do stupid.

Speaker 1 I just saw Anya come out in you.

Speaker 1 Like, you better recognize.

Speaker 1 Oh, my goodness. Yeah.
I mean, I hardly get upset, but, you know, my wife knows

Speaker 1 once I'm there and the switch is on, it's hard to come back. Ooh.
You know, so I do my best not to get to that point. Right.
You know, unless you do something really dumb.

Speaker 1 I mean, you are human. Yes.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 Well, that was an incredible story. And, you know, just telling your lineage about, you know, where your family comes from and then the legend of Pele, Pele herself

Speaker 1 almost beyond anything we could have even anticipated. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 You know, it's a story about a woman who had to bear the responsibility of bringing her entire family with her and having this fight with her sister and making sure that, you know, these people are taken care of and fed and all this stuff.

Speaker 1 So in that journey, Pele herself grew, you know, from this impetuous young woman who just was all over the place, you know, she finally had to be responsible for something other than herself.

Speaker 1 And that is a lesson to humankind right there. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so symbolically, becoming this Almakua, this goddess of the fire, is her transition to, you know, the station in her life where she was meant to be.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because who was it that said we're afraid of the fact that we can be more than we are? Is it Maya Angelou? Something to that effect. Let's go with that.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 It sounds like something Maya would have said and some wise words, for sure.

Speaker 1 This is So Supernatural, an audio Chuck original produced by Crime House. You can connect with us on Instagram at SoSupernaturalPod and visit our website at sosupernaturalpodcast.com.

Speaker 1 Join Rosh and me next Friday for an all-new episode.

Speaker 1 I think Chuck would approve.

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