8: The Impact

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Speaker 3 We flew to Vegas.

Speaker 4 Aaron Freeman was on a trip last fall with his wife and two sons.

Speaker 3 We took the boys to the Colts Raiders game out there. We drove up to Zion.
We did Zion and Bryce.

Speaker 4 And somewhere between Bryce Canyon and Zion National Park, his wife said to him, there's a podcast I want you to listen to.

Speaker 3 She's like, you're going to listen to this.

Speaker 3 Okay, I'm going to listen to this.

Speaker 10 His kids had already heard Solda's story.

Speaker 11 My mom started putting it on a lot during the car ride back and forth between tutoring.

Speaker 5 Aaron Freeman is Cooper and Jack Freeman's dad, the boys you met in the last episode.

Speaker 15 I couldn't read in kindergarten, first grade, second grade. I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 3 I had two competing emotional thoughts listening to your podcast.

Speaker 4 This is Aaron Freeman again.

Speaker 3 I literally had a tear in my eye and I was heartbroken for what we've done as a society. And second, I wanted to do physical injury to somebody.

Speaker 4 Instead, he decided to write a piece of legislation. Because in addition to being a dad, Aaron Freeman is a state senator in Indiana.

Speaker 4 He went looking for co-authors.

Speaker 19 My name is Andrea Hunley. I am a freshman state senator in Indiana.

Speaker 5 In January, she went to the state capitol to start her new job.

Speaker 19 I was meeting other legislators, mingling around, trying to figure out what we have in common. And I met Senator Aaron Freeman.

Speaker 3 And we strike up a conversation about the science of reading.

Speaker 4 Andrea Hundley had been a teacher and a school principal before running for office. And she'd heard the podcast.

Speaker 19 And he had said to me, you know, there's this piece of legislation I really want to work on around the science of reading. And I would really like for this to be a bipartisan piece of legislation.

Speaker 4 Andrea Hundley is a Democrat.

Speaker 6 Aaron Freeman is not.

Speaker 3 I'm a proud Republican. And although she and I probably don't agree on whatever fiscal policy or whatever the court and criminal code policy is going to be, we agree wholeheartedly on this.

Speaker 22 So they wrote a bill.

Speaker 3 It would require our teachers to teach the science of reading.

Speaker 19 This just really draws the line in Indiana that says this is how we teach reading, and we teach it in ways that are based on science.

Speaker 23 Senator Freeman, the floor is yours.

Speaker 24 Mr. Chairman, thank you.

Speaker 25 The bill requires schools to adopt curriculum based on the science of reading.

Speaker 27 It defines what the science of reading means.

Speaker 14 And the bill bans queuing.

Speaker 5 Queuing is the idea we focused on in Solda Story.

Speaker 24 You cannot require the science of reading and also leave in three queuing.

Speaker 24 In order to do this correctly, you have to adopt the science of reading and you have to outlaw 3Qing.

Speaker 10 I'm Emily Hanford and this is Sold a Story, a podcast from APM Reports.

Speaker 4 As I said in the previous episode, a lot has been happening in response to the podcast.

Speaker 30 Parents are understanding how their kids are being taught to read and asking, why?

Speaker 30 Teachers are saying, I knew there was a problem here.

Speaker 6 What do I need to learn?

Speaker 12 Principals and superintendents are asking themselves, what have we been paying for and what do we do now?

Speaker 30 And policymakers are saying, no more.

Speaker 12 We don't want to spend taxpayer money on things that aren't working.

Speaker 16 We want schools to teach kids to read in ways that line up with scientific evidence.

Speaker 12 I'm watching all this and I'm hopeful, but I'm also worried.

Speaker 25 I'm going to bring in my colleague, Christopher Peake.

Speaker 31 Hi, Chris. Hi, Emily.

Speaker 34 You have been following what's been going on in state legislatures.

Speaker 16 Tell us a little bit about what's been happening.

Speaker 31 In at least 14 states, legislators have introduced bills to overhaul reading instruction.

Speaker 36 We need to improve reading in Wisconsin. We are all in agreement on that.

Speaker 31 And a lot of them are saying they've listened to our podcast.

Speaker 37 Exhibit one

Speaker 37 is the result of a five-year investigation by an education reporter into reading instruction.

Speaker 31 It's happening everywhere.

Speaker 38 I'm calling for a renewed focus on literacy and on the way we teach reading in the state of Ohio.

Speaker 31 North and south, big states, small states.

Speaker 39 Our current statistic in Minnesota is that we have close to 500,000 students that aren't proficient in reading. That is enough to fill up the U.S.
Bank Stadium seven and a half times over.

Speaker 31 And it's happening on a bipartisan basis, too.

Speaker 26 All right, so tell us a little bit about what kinds of changes they are making.

Speaker 4 Like, what are legislators doing?

Speaker 34 What's in these laws?

Speaker 31 A big focus has been curriculum. There

Speaker 31 is this unquestioned idea, almost a sacred cow in America, this idea of local control. It's been up to school districts, their boards of education, their superintendent to choose their own curriculum.

Speaker 31 So you have 13,000 school districts across the country, oftentimes going through the curricular materials out there and choosing for themselves.

Speaker 31 they don't generally have someone telling them what they can use and what they can't.

Speaker 21 But that is changing.

Speaker 31 Legislators want to have more control to tell school districts, you have now a smaller set of curricula you should be choosing from.

Speaker 31 There's a lot of urgency from parents, from our reporting, from tons of other local media covering these issues, and they don't want to stick with the status quo anymore.

Speaker 31 And they're making very big moves in some of these states.

Speaker 21 Some states are compiling lists of approved programs and requiring districts to buy from the list.

Speaker 34 So what are you hearing from people who think these bills aren't a good idea?

Speaker 21 What are they concerned about?

Speaker 31 They often make the arguments that justify local control. They don't want someone in their state capital who has never taught in a classroom before telling them what to do.

Speaker 40 We believe in local control here. So it's that balance between decision-making and These are really the best things to do.

Speaker 21 That was the governor of Oregon.

Speaker 6 And this is a hearing in Connecticut.

Speaker 23 We do not prescribe to mandated commercial programs which carry a heavy price tag.

Speaker 41 The Right to Read Act isn't addressing the unique needs of each school district.

Speaker 42 Instead, the options are a one-size-fits-all canned program.

Speaker 5 There have been a lot of these kinds of hearings and meetings since the podcast.

Speaker 4 Christopher told me he's listened to more than 80 hours. There was a hearing in Wisconsin that he said was particularly interesting, so I listened to it too.

Speaker 36 Here, Representative Dietrich. Here.

Speaker 31 Wisconsin doesn't have any legislation in place yet, but the lawmakers got together and had this hearing.

Speaker 36 Thank you. Thank you.
I'm really glad to be here.

Speaker 31 To

Speaker 31 set the stage for the legislation they might introduce, to hear from a couple experts.

Speaker 36 I'm going to talk to you about what the science of reading is.

Speaker 5 One of the people who testified was Mark Seidenberg, a cognitive scientist who was in Solda Story.

Speaker 31 He had a really nuanced take on this question of local control and curriculum.

Speaker 36 I personally view the legislation that's related to the science of reading as kind of the last resort, something that has been pursued after really kind of several decades of resistance from the educational establishment.

Speaker 31 He said, you don't want it to be this way.

Speaker 31 You wish that the education establishment would have changed this on their own, that you would have seen publishers and these experts catching up to the science of reading and putting that into the materials, spreading that knowledge.

Speaker 31 But that hasn't happened. And so he said that this is a last resort and it might be necessary, but it's not going to be easy.

Speaker 36 You're asking a lot of teachers to learn something new to change the way that they do things.

Speaker 4 And Seidenberg said he isn't that confident in some of the programs that now say they're aligned with the science of reading.

Speaker 36 So you are seeing people who are interested in maintaining their market share who are modifying their materials. Good.
Are they going to be good materials? Who knows?

Speaker 31 What Seidenberg was saying is that there's no perfect program. A lot of these publishers, just a couple years ago, were saying, yeah, we believe in balanced literacy.

Speaker 31 We have everything that Lucy Cawkins and Fountess and Pinnell were telling school districts to use for the last couple of decades.

Speaker 31 And some are making a very quick pivot to saying, oh, yeah, yeah, our programs are with the science of reading now.

Speaker 31 And I think there's some real skepticism that's merited about whether these programs are all that good, whether they...

Speaker 31 really align with the science of reading and whether buying one of them at the moment is going to get your students where they need to be.

Speaker 16 Yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 7 One of the things I was struck by in his testimony is that he talked about, as we did in Solda Story, that there are some curriculum that are a problem.

Speaker 36 You can weed out bad materials.

Speaker 34 There are ideas in the curriculum that aren't right, and getting rid of that is a good idea, is what he essentially said.

Speaker 36 So getting rid of the things that are really bad or forcing those authors and publishers to change those materials, legislation can do that.

Speaker 4 But he also said this thing that I've been thinking about a lot, which is I don't see the curriculum as being the solution either.

Speaker 36 If you think that legislation will allow you to focus on these are the ones that work, these are the ones that don't, the problem is we need new materials. None of them are really great.

Speaker 34 So curriculum can be a problem, but just getting rid of a curriculum and then bringing in a new one, that doesn't solve it.

Speaker 21 Curriculum doesn't teach kids how to read, right?

Speaker 35 Teachers do.

Speaker 44 Many of these science of reading bills do try to address things beyond changing curriculum by including money for teacher training, for example, or for new assessment systems.

Speaker 5 Seidenberg's big message to Wisconsin lawmakers was: be careful.

Speaker 29 Don't mandate anything you might later regret.

Speaker 29 Recognize that changing reading instruction is going to be complex, and that telling schools what to buy may not be a good idea, but telling them what not to buy might be.

Speaker 29 It's something a number of states are trying to do.

Speaker 34 Some states are also actually banning or trying to ban materials and training rooted in the queuing idea that we focused on in Solda Story.

Speaker 7 So what's in these queuing bans and who's trying to do that?

Speaker 31 Legislators have really identified this is the problem.

Speaker 45 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Speaker 5 This is a House committee hearing in Texas on a bill to ban queuing.

Speaker 45 Did I hear you say that banning the use of one procedure of of

Speaker 45 three queuing, the three queuing methods?

Speaker 45 Don't use that anymore. No, we're not going to use that anymore.

Speaker 31 There's at least nine states that have introduced these queuing bans in their legislatures.

Speaker 4 And since Christopher and I recorded this, at least one more state has introduced a queuing ban.

Speaker 4 The states include Indiana, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Texas, West Virginia, and Minnesota.

Speaker 5 And before the podcast, there were already queuing bans in place in Arkansas, Louisiana, and Virginia.

Speaker 4 When we come back, Christopher and I are going to talk about whether we think these queuing bans are a good idea.

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Speaker 49 Hello, my name is Andrew Carr.

Speaker 4 This is a listener who left us a message.

Speaker 49 I'm a children's book editor at a very large trade book publishing company.

Speaker 4 Andrew Carr told us that he doesn't publish instructional materials. He doesn't have any formal training or expertise in teaching reading, but he's really interested in the podcast.

Speaker 49 I found the podcast series to be really thought-provoking and quite informative. I truly learned a lot.

Speaker 6 But he called us because he says there was a moment in the final episode where the podcast turned into the twilight zone for him.

Speaker 51 When you talked about a large Texas school district removing books by the literal truckload because they were used in a discredited reading methodology and not because they acknowledged the existence of LGBTQIA folks or America's history of racism.

Speaker 51 It was truly like glimpsing an alternate reality.

Speaker 18 Andrew Carr describes himself as left of center politically. It was shocking for him to hear about books being banned in the podcast.

Speaker 33 Even if it felt like it was for the right reasons, he doesn't think book banning is a good idea.

Speaker 32 His message is a reminder that there are politics at play here.

Speaker 21 There always have been.

Speaker 32 And I worry about the science of reading getting caught up in partisan politics. That's what happened with Reading First, the Bush era effort to get the science of reading into schools.

Speaker 20 And I see some people trying to do that now, to dismiss the science of reading as right-wing.

Speaker 27 But it's not.

Speaker 28 All I need to do is look at my social media feeds, and I see people on the left and the right who are passionate about about this issue because it's their kids, their students, their lives.

Speaker 7 I do worry about that phrase though, the science of reading.

Speaker 4 I brought it up when I was talking with Christopher.

Speaker 34 We've been using the term in this conversation today, the science of reading.

Speaker 25 And I think there's a lot of people who are starting to become like sort of suspicious of that phrase.

Speaker 34 Like it's getting used all the time.

Speaker 7 It's sort of the new phrase, the science of reading.

Speaker 21 What is it?

Speaker 4 And I think there's a good answer.

Speaker 21 It's a big body of research that's been conducted over decades in labs and in classrooms all over the world about reading and how it works and how kids learn to do it and why kids struggle.

Speaker 4 That's really what the science of reading is.

Speaker 34 But it's become kind of a shorthand.

Speaker 21 And I hear people referring to it like it's a curriculum or an approach.

Speaker 34 You know, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about that term.

Speaker 26 And I was just thinking about it the other day, like, why do I use that term?

Speaker 4 And I realized that one of the reasons I use the term the science of reading is because I don't want to use the word phonics, because I think a lot of times this does get reduced down to just phonics.

Speaker 34 And we know that learning how to read is about much more than phonics.

Speaker 44 So when I use the term science of reading, what I'm often trying to do, I think, is gesture towards something larger.

Speaker 4 But of course, people can mean all different kinds of things.

Speaker 34 And now it's just become the shorthand and now becomes the stamp.

Speaker 21 It becomes the phrase you put on your book and in your materials.

Speaker 7 And that's supposed to be, oh, yep, science of reading.

Speaker 4 Check.

Speaker 21 We're doing that. And it's like, wait, hold on a second.

Speaker 35 What is that?

Speaker 16 But the insight I had is, well, the science of reading is a way to signal to people, this isn't just phonics.

Speaker 21 It's a lot more than that.

Speaker 31 And a lot of bills, I will say, legislators seem to get. that there's a lot more than just phonics.
You're seeing new legislation say, we need to teach background knowledge.

Speaker 31 We need to really have an emphasis on oral language.

Speaker 31 These things that have been part of the research all along, but have not maybe been part of the conversation when it was just about are we teaching phonics or not?

Speaker 31 So, I think you're so right that there is this much more inclusive body of evidence out there that we need all of it to inform what instruction looks like.

Speaker 31 And it's just now going to be a matter of whether that trickles down to schools, to the people enforcing these laws, if they really understand all the nuance that goes into the science of reading.

Speaker 17 So, what do you think about these queuing bans?

Speaker 21 Do you think they're a great idea?

Speaker 31 I think they probably are.

Speaker 31 I think that we've tried so many times to change reading instruction. And a lot of times what happens is districts say, oh, I just need to add in a little bit of phonics.

Speaker 31 So they'll buy a new program, but never change their fundamental practices.

Speaker 26 That's what Solda's story was about, that many school districts never took away those queuing strategies.

Speaker 31 They might do a little phonics for 10, 15 minutes, and then they go back to teaching kids, okay, let's just look at the first letter, you know that, and look at the picture and think something that makes sense.

Speaker 31 We've never uprooted that practice.

Speaker 17 And Christopher thinks these queuing bans are probably good because the goal is to finally get rid of the idea that kids don't need to learn how to sound out written words because they have other strategies they can use instead.

Speaker 31 Now, having someone up at the Capitol telling you that might not be the best way, but it, I think, is forcing districts to have these conversations.

Speaker 31 When a state bans an instructional practice, that's a big deal.

Speaker 21 You're right. A lot of what our reporting is focusing on is that there's this idea at the root that has never been gotten rid of, that people have been trying to get it rid of for a long time.

Speaker 34 But I have to say, these queuing bans... Give me pause because immediately the question is once you take something away, what do you replace it with?

Speaker 34 And so, I am worried about that rush to buy new stuff because a lot of this stuff is untested.

Speaker 34 And I have a fear that ineffective practices might get put into place, like actually put into law and policy.

Speaker 21 I think we're at risk of that.

Speaker 34 However, I think overall, this was the point of our reporting: schools were adding stuff without taking away the idea that was a big part of the problem.

Speaker 21 And now people are really looking at that problematic idea.

Speaker 4 But getting this right is going to be challenging.

Speaker 21 When Christopher and I were talking, I thought of a quote from Mark Seidenberg.

Speaker 34 He wrote an essay recently, and it's about this complexity of education, basically that education is complex, change is really complex, and I think he put it really well.

Speaker 34 He wrote, Incorporating scientific findings and attitudes into education is a monumental challenge.

Speaker 34 The educational establishment is a very large, complex ecosystem that evolved over many decades without incorporating cognitive research.

Speaker 4 We are now now observing in real time what happens when basic research is released into this environment.

Speaker 31 Yeah.

Speaker 21 And Christopher and I are both concerned about the pressure that teachers and schools are now under, in part because of our reporting.

Speaker 31 This is not going to be a quick fix. I saw one school district that they currently only have 38% of their kids reading where they want them to be.

Speaker 31 And they're hoping that by 2024, next year, they're going to be up up to 80. That does not seem feasible to me.
And I think that's the kind of

Speaker 31 as important as it is to get those kids reading. If they don't reach the 80, they might say the science of reading failed.
And that's a real worry.

Speaker 21 Definitely.

Speaker 44 These goals that we put in education, like by next year, 80% of kids will be reading on grade level just because like our system, you're supposed to do that.

Speaker 21 You're like, everyone's going to work really hard and get to that. And you think, well, what would it take to really do that?

Speaker 44 Do you know? Do you know how you would do that?

Speaker 25 Because if you really knew how you would do that, that wouldn't be your goal.

Speaker 26 You have to set, we have to set realistic goals here.

Speaker 26 Not to say we shouldn't be really urgent and help the kids out there who are struggling with reading, but if we set unrealistic goals, it's just, there's no way it won't fail.

Speaker 12 I don't want it to fail.

Speaker 5 Neither does Christopher.

Speaker 32 We want more kids to be good readers.

Speaker 21 Claude Goldenberg does too.

Speaker 4 You met Claude in the last episode, and I'm going to bring him back because when I was talking to him, he brought up an idea for how to prevent failure.

Speaker 52 It's a very provocative idea.

Speaker 17 It's called a pre-mortem, as opposed to a post-mortem.

Speaker 47 A pre-mortem is something you do before you put a plan into place to try to prevent the plan from failing.

Speaker 52 You have this plan that you're thinking of putting into place, and you bring all of the heads of departments or whoever's going to be charged with implementing this plan together and say, okay, here's the plan.

Speaker 52 I want you to imagine it is three years after the plan has been implemented and it has failed, right? Just, it failed. This thing is just dead as a doornail.

Speaker 52 And I want you to think about all the reasons that tanked it. Why did it go wrong?

Speaker 4 He thinks educators should try this pre-mortem idea before they put plans into place to change how reading is taught.

Speaker 52 This can actually be a way to get people to take off their blinders and stop kind of the groupthink and shared assumptions that make it very difficult to really think seriously about what could go wrong before you implement something and, you know, and things go south.

Speaker 12 I like this pre-mortem idea.

Speaker 27 Imagine all the ways the science of reading could go wrong.

Speaker 18 Prepare for failure to try to prevent it.

Speaker 14 And something else I've been thinking about as a way to prevent failure, don't put too much trust in any one person or any one program or any one idea.

Speaker 5 Keep asking questions.

Speaker 10 Stay curious.

Speaker 14 Stay humble.

Speaker 21 There's a lot to learn.

Speaker 4 And I'm feeling hopeful because of teachers.

Speaker 6 So many teachers who want this.

Speaker 27 They want to teach kids how to read.

Speaker 15 I can tell you that I absolutely am changing the way I teach reading.

Speaker 51 It's going to be uncomfortable.

Speaker 3 It's going to be stressful.

Speaker 51 But if we want to help our students, we do need to make changes, big changes.

Speaker 22 You have changed the way that I will teach, and I'm very grateful for that.

Speaker 53 As I've implemented science of reading practices over the last two years, the reading abilities of my students has exponentially increased. I've got confident, happy little readers.

Speaker 50 Let's just go and let's just teach these kids to read.

Speaker 50 That's it. There's no controversy, no argument.
That's it.

Speaker 4 We have more episodes available right now. The next one is about how the people and the company at the center of this story have reacted to the podcast.

Speaker 4 If you you want to help more people find this podcast, leave a review wherever you are listening and be sure to follow the show so you'll always get our new episodes.

Speaker 12 You can find that article by Mark Seidenberg that I mentioned and the one by Claude Goldenberg about that pre-mortem idea by going to the show notes.

Speaker 12 You can also find a link to our website there where we have lots more on this topic, including a map where you can find out if your state has passed new laws.

Speaker 10 The website is soldastory.org.

Speaker 20 This episode of Sold a Story was produced by me with Christopher Peake and Eliza Billingham.

Speaker 4 Chris Julin was our editor.

Speaker 5 He also did mixing and sound design and made some of the music.

Speaker 4 Final mastering of this episode was by Alex Simpson.

Speaker 12 Our theme music was by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly.

Speaker 10 The APM Report's digital editor is Andy Cruz.

Speaker 12 Our acting deputy managing editor editor is Tom Scheck.

Speaker 4 Jane Helmke is our executive editor.

Speaker 12 Special thanks to Catherine Winter, Chris Worthington, and Stephen Smith.

Speaker 4 And to everyone who wrote and who left us messages.

Speaker 5 Support for this podcast comes from the Hollyhawk Foundation, the Oak Foundation, and Wendy and Stephen Gall.

Speaker 5 Okay, done.

Speaker 31 That's it. All right.

Speaker 24 Well, great talking to you. Thanks, guys.

Speaker 31 You bet. Bye.
Thanks so much.

Speaker 39 Bye-bye. All right.
Take care. Thanks for your work.
Bye. Thanks.

Speaker 31 Bye.

Speaker 31 Okay.

Speaker 21 I'm going to turn this off now.