7: Your Words

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Speaker 6 From the first episode, I just felt like, oh my goodness, I am not crazy. It's not just me.

Speaker 7 This is Sold a Story, a podcast from APM Reports. I'm Emily Hanford.

Speaker 6 I got up early this morning to go for a walk to listen to the last episode.

Speaker 7 We've been hearing from a lot of you.

Speaker 8 I just finished the podcast. I like literally drove an hour the wrong direction because I was so captivated.

Speaker 7 We got emails and voicemails. Hi there.
Hi. Hello.
Good afternoon. Hi, Emily and Team.

Speaker 9 I was totally one of those people from episode six who thought, why isn't this working?

Speaker 8 You summarized my whole 29 years in public education. I am that teacher, and I'm also that parent of a student who did not learn this.
I was trained as a reading recovery teacher.

Speaker 8 I trained other people in balanced literacy using that queuing system. I'm mad.

Speaker 8 I'm saddened for the kids that I've taught and believed in this so much that I was led to believe this. You did a

Speaker 8 wonderful job telling our story.

Speaker 7 We've heard praise, we've heard criticism, but a lot of what we've been hearing in response to the podcast are personal stories.

Speaker 7 For the first few years as a teacher, I was a good teacher, but I wasn't a good literacy teacher. I got an email from my younger daughter's teacher just a few years ago when my son was in first grade.

Speaker 7 The school she was in at the time in Virginia.

Speaker 9 When my daughter was in kindergarten as well, she would try to sound out a word on a page.

Speaker 7 She would get the beginning part of the word.

Speaker 5 One of my favorite reading specialists in our school district said to me, the guilt that I feel.

Speaker 7 In this episode, we're telling you about some of what we heard from listeners in response to Solda's story.

Speaker 7 I read a lot of the emails we got. I listened to a lot of the messages, but I couldn't keep up with them all.
So I got some help. I'm Eliza.
Meet Eliza Billingham. I'm a research assistant.

Speaker 7 Eliza read or listened to every message we received. So who do we hear from? What can you tell us about who called us and emailed us in response to Solda's story?

Speaker 7 Oh man, who we didn't hear from might be a shorter list. We've got teachers, obviously, everyone from pre-teachers to retirement,

Speaker 7 parents, grandparents, school psychologists, reading specialists, librarians, social workers, professors, lawyers, publishers, and school board members, administrators, and even students.

Speaker 7 We heard from a bunch of kids.

Speaker 12 And when I listen to the podcast, I hear a lot of what I've struggled with throughout all the years in school.

Speaker 7 This is Jack Freeman. He's 13.
His mom wrote to us, and then I interviewed Jack and his younger brother.

Speaker 12 Hi, my name is Cooper, and I am 10, and I really love the podcast.

Speaker 7 The boys listened with their mom in the car.

Speaker 12 So my mom started putting it on a lot during the car ride back and forth between tutoring.

Speaker 7 Jack and Cooper are kids who are getting private tutoring because they weren't taught how to read in school.

Speaker 12 I do remember a little bit of what you talked about in your podcast about them covering up the word and trying to use tools to guess that word. And I remember the sticky note.

Speaker 12 I remember, guess the word.

Speaker 12 There was a couch, there was a carpet, there was all this stuff. And they'd be like, go find a spot to read.

Speaker 7 But Cooper says he was lost.

Speaker 12 I couldn't read in kindergarten, first grade, second grade. I was running in darkness.

Speaker 12 I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 7 It was during the COVID school shutdown that his parents began to recognize how much he and his brother were struggling. That's when their mom started homeschooling them and taking them to tutoring.

Speaker 12 And I think I'm finally knowing how to read. I never thought I'd be doing this well.

Speaker 12 I thought I was just, you know, I thought I took the bad path and I was only going to find a path to go to the good path and learn how to read.

Speaker 7 So you mean as a little kid, you actually thought, you had the thought maybe you won't ever learn to read?

Speaker 12 Yes.

Speaker 12 I was like, how am I going to learn how to read?

Speaker 12 How?

Speaker 14 I did not learn how to read until I was 11 years old.

Speaker 7 We heard from adults too, adults who were once struggling readers.

Speaker 14 My name is Brooke Anderson. When I finally did learn how to read, the first sort of reaction as it started to click for me was not one of happiness or pride or relief.
It was just extreme anger.

Speaker 14 I was enraged that no one had thought to teach me how to sound out words before. I was just in my head thinking, what the f ⁇ ? Like, how did no one think to teach me this way?

Speaker 14 I've gone through my entire life thinking that I'm an idiot.

Speaker 7 She also felt guilty, guilty because because she was finally taught how to read.

Speaker 14 You know, I grew up white in an upper middle class family and in a wealthy New York City suburb and I got the help that I needed and I was very aware that, you know, other kids like me were not going to get that help.

Speaker 7 Other people talked about feeling the same kind of survivor's guilt.

Speaker 7 One parent wrote on Twitter, I cried when I realized how fortunate my son was that we could afford tutoring and how tragic it was for all the children who would never have access to the same help.

Speaker 7 We heard from a lot of parents. I stayed up late last night to listen to your entire six episode podcast and man it really struck a chord.

Speaker 7 The stories are hard to listen to because they hit so close to home.

Speaker 9 So much of your podcast resonated with me and what I've experienced with my third grader. I kept being told that everything would be fixed by third grade.
Everything would be fine.

Speaker 7 Parents knew there was a problem, but many of them couldn't figure out what the problem was until they heard Solda's story.

Speaker 16 Hi, I just had to tell you that I think your podcast has changed my life.

Speaker 7 This is Jen, a mom in New Jersey.

Speaker 16 I was working late one night a few weeks ago, and your podcast came on, and I started screaming, hey, you have to watch listen right now.

Speaker 9 My husband was downstairs grading papers.

Speaker 16 He's a teacher, and he teaches high school, and our son is eight years old. And we have struggled so hard with our son.

Speaker 16 He's a delightful and very smart boy, but my husband and I are both voracious readers.

Speaker 16 We could not understand what we were doing wrong and why our son was having such a hard time reading and hating to read.

Speaker 7 She says they blamed themselves. They blamed their kid, but they never thought much about how he was being taught in school until she heard the podcast.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 I pulled out all of his schoolwork from kindergarten and first grade. And sure enough, there were the books, there were the letters.
So I called the principal.

Speaker 7 And the principal said to her, yes, we teach those strategies and those programs. She sent him the podcast every episode, every week.

Speaker 7 She doesn't know if he listened, but she sent the podcast to teachers at her son's school, too. And she says some of them wrote back and said, we listened, and we're talking about this now.

Speaker 6 So my hope is that they're slowly moving away from it, and I'm so thankful for this podcast.

Speaker 7 Another mom told us that it was a teacher at her son's school who told her to listen to the podcast.

Speaker 6 Last week, my school's parent-teacher conferences were happening, and I scheduled a parent-teacher conference with his fourth-grade teacher, like I always do every year with his regular teacher.

Speaker 6 But this year, I also scheduled a conference with his reading specialist.

Speaker 7 This is Liz. She says her son has been working with the same reading specialist since kindergarten, so she'd met with her before.

Speaker 6 But this time, it was a really weird and strange and different vibe to the conference with his reading specialist. She

Speaker 6 was almost getting emotional. She started out the 15-minute conference, teleconference over Zoom,

Speaker 6 apologizing and saying that she hasn't helped Cole at all. She was talking really fast, it seemed really emotional, but she said, Sold a story.
Please, you've got to listen to Solda Story.

Speaker 7 So she listened.

Speaker 6 I'm so sorry. Wow.

Speaker 6 This is my son.

Speaker 6 You know,

Speaker 6 this is my child.

Speaker 6 So upset.

Speaker 6 But mostly I just want to change it right away. And so does his reading specialist.
And I'm so grateful to her, and I'm so grateful to this podcast because I think you just changed my son's life.

Speaker 6 And I'm going to share this podcast with everyone I meet.

Speaker 6 Sorry, gosh, I had no idea I was going to get promotional, but

Speaker 6 yeah, wow. This is a big deal.

Speaker 7 We also heard from a lot of teachers.

Speaker 17 Hi, Emily. My name's Alex.

Speaker 7 Alex was a reading recovery teacher. Reading Recovery is the program that was started by Marie Clay, the woman from New Zealand you heard about in the podcast.

Speaker 17 As difficult as it is to hear that

Speaker 17 a belief system that I adhered to was erroneous,

Speaker 17 it made me think a lot about the frustrations I experienced.

Speaker 17 as a reading recovery teacher and also as a reading specialist using Reading Recovery and then Fontes and Pinnell with the students I taught to read or believed that I taught to read.

Speaker 7 Alex wanted us to know why reading recovery was so appealing to him.

Speaker 17 I knew nothing about teaching reading, which is why I got my master's degree in literacy and then just jumped at the chance to be trained as a reading recovery teacher.

Speaker 17 And it certainly did change the way I taught in the classroom in terms of my attention and my ability to do something to help kids read, which mostly involved putting a book that they could read in front of them.

Speaker 15 Teaching is a lonely profession in many respects.

Speaker 15 And

Speaker 15 the intensity of the reading recovery training in particular,

Speaker 15 where you're being observed by your colleagues and observing your colleagues, with regularity throughout the time that you're a reading recovery teacher involves a lot of risk, a lot of intimacy, and you build tremendous trust in your colleagues.

Speaker 15 And you're guided by a teacher leader. And it's a wonderfully constructed model for professional education, professional development, but it's also worked very well to create an insulated community.

Speaker 15 That kind of community

Speaker 15 is not going to be open to changes in perception unless they come from on high. And in that case, it was Mari Clay, who we all worshipped.

Speaker 7 He says he did have some nagging questions, though, some doubts.

Speaker 15 That I started to see, but I couldn't really acknowledge. And so I really appreciate your reporting because it,

Speaker 15 in a very gentle way, in a very kind way, you've let me accept what I suspected. And I think back about the children I taught to read, and many of it was just...

Speaker 15 they taught themselves and I got to watch it.

Speaker 7 Of course, there are current and former teachers who did not feel the way Alex did about the podcast. A group of 58 educators wrote a letter criticizing Solda's story.

Speaker 7 The group included Lucy Cockins and other people who have published with Heinemann.

Speaker 7 The letter condemned the podcast for, quote, attacking the integrity of a group of educators who have led pioneering research and helped advance our field.

Speaker 7 Another woman wrote, please stop blaming teachers. Teachers are employees who must do as they are told.

Speaker 7 But many teachers wrote to say they believed what they were told.

Speaker 13 I've learned a lot about the science of reading since you started writing about the topic.

Speaker 7 Michelle Shard has been a teacher for 29 years.

Speaker 13 I have some ideas about why we thought the way we did and want to share them.

Speaker 13 I didn't focus on decoding during my early years as a classroom teacher because I wanted to teach kids to read deeply, to make connections and synthesize information using deep critical thinking.

Speaker 13 And we, as a group, wrote off phonics as a superficial skill that didn't need much attention.

Speaker 13 Most of the teachers I knew came to reading easily, seemingly automatically, so it made sense to us that our students would as well.

Speaker 7 She says teaching kids how to read the words felt kind of like not believing in them, not believing in their ability to learn on their own.

Speaker 13 And that felt inequitable.

Speaker 13 We believed the Marie Clay studies and the Fontes and Pinnell methods, and especially Lucy Cockins' structures around readers and writers' workshops, because it went with how we were all thinking.

Speaker 13 Also, we didn't know how to teach phonics.

Speaker 13 So there you have it. We were sold the story.

Speaker 7 Other teachers called to say they never believed in Clay and Fountess and Pinnell and Cockins or the ideas they were promoting.

Speaker 6 Your podcast shined a light on something I've been trying to tell people for the last 11 years of my teaching career.

Speaker 7 This is Laquitia Underwood.

Speaker 6 I was a striving reader as a child. I am now a reading teacher because I did not want what happened to me to happen to millions of other children.

Speaker 6 I was afraid to turn over my own children's ability to learn reading to schools because I know what they've been told and I know that it doesn't work.

Speaker 7 She says she's had to make hard decisions because she had doubts about programs she was expected to teach.

Speaker 6 As early as last year, I saw a school purchase the LLI leveled reader program and I cringed so much so that I actually took a leave after trying to be forced to use the program that I know doesn't work.

Speaker 6 Anyhow, thank you so much for the work you've put into this, and I'm going to keep doing what I can to help people learn to read.

Speaker 7 Hi, I'm a first-year kindergarten teacher. We heard from new teachers trying to buck the system, too.
I just finished listening to the podcast. This teacher didn't say her name.

Speaker 7 I teach in a district that uses Lucy across the board and does not support very much Monics instruction. And so I try to do things

Speaker 7 myself to fill in the gaps. And I don't teach the queuing system, but I have to keep it secret.
And after listening to the podcast, I just feel

Speaker 7 stuck. Like, I like my district.
I like it for

Speaker 7 quite a few different reasons. And I just don't even know if I'd be able to find a district that did teach reading that was aligned with science.

Speaker 7 The other option I have in the district has made this quite clear is to keep your mouth shut, keep your head down, because if you say something or if you try to take a stand, there will be trouble.

Speaker 7 And I don't know

Speaker 7 where to go from here. So I wonder if you have any other

Speaker 7 teachers who are in a similar position or teachers who have been in that position and figured out what happens next.

Speaker 7 Do you stay and try to fight or do you leave to a district that's more aligned with what you know to be true?

Speaker 7 We'll be back after a break.

Speaker 7 Let's listen in on a live, unscripted second grade challenger school class. They're studying Charlotte's Webb.
What words did this author use to describe this barn? Descriptive words. Wonderful.

Speaker 7 Can you find some adjectives in there? New is an adjective describing rope. Weber is an adjective and it modifies boots.
Those students are seven.

Speaker 7 Starting early and starting right makes a real difference. Learn more at challengerschool.com.

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Speaker 11 Hey, everybody.

Speaker 7 After people heard Solda's story, they wanted to talk about it.

Speaker 20 Thank you so much for coming.

Speaker 7 This is a Zoom happy hour to talk about Solda's story.

Speaker 20 If you would not mind just putting your name, maybe where you're from, always feel free to tell us what you're drinking.

Speaker 7 We heard about a bunch of Solda Story discussion groups like this one.

Speaker 7 This series of Friday night happy hours was started by a teacher in Connecticut.

Speaker 20 My name is Virginia Quinn Mooney. I've been teaching first grade for a little over a minute.

Speaker 7 She's been teaching first grade for 19 years. She says she knew something wasn't right with reading instruction.

Speaker 20 Like I did teach phonics and I

Speaker 20 and I've always known that, you know, post-it notes over letters is really not effective.

Speaker 7 But she doubted herself because everyone around her seemed to be all in on balanced literacy and Lucy Cockins and Fountess and Pinnell.

Speaker 20 All of education was embracing this. All of the people that were my literacy leaders were sitting me down and telling me this is the way.

Speaker 7 She says after she heard Solda's story, she couldn't sleep.

Speaker 20 I couldn't sleep because I was like, what can I do?

Speaker 7 So she started the happy hours. Welcome, everybody.

Speaker 20 Thank you so much for being here and moving the conversation forward.

Speaker 7 She says nearly 400 people signed up for the first happy hour.

Speaker 7 People from all over the world.

Speaker 20 We had South Wales, we had Ghana. There were some great accents.

Speaker 7 Lots of teachers came. So did principals, superintendents, school board members, college students, parents.

Speaker 20 So much of this for me is it's incumbent on me to pay back those families that I

Speaker 20 needed to have done better for.

Speaker 7 This is Virginia at one of the happy hours.

Speaker 20 We have to just be done with balanced literacy. Like it just has to go away.
And we have to just start directly teaching our kids. how to read.

Speaker 21 Virginia, I feel the same way.

Speaker 7 This is one of the other teachers who came to the happy hour.

Speaker 21 I feel like I have to give back to the community because I was so ingrained and I was a balanced literacy teacher and supported it so much.

Speaker 21 And I've been on that same journey for about probably four years now.

Speaker 21 And I am so passionate about it. And I spend more time reading and taking classes.
And

Speaker 21 it's just,

Speaker 21 I devote all my free time to this.

Speaker 7 This is what I think I was hoping for when I started reporting on this topic more than six years ago.

Speaker 7 I was hoping that the reporting would get people interested in the scientific research on reading, that it would be an invitation to learn more. And it has been.

Speaker 7 I think a lot of people know a lot more about how kids learn to read because of this reporting.

Speaker 7 But I have focused mostly on one aspect of what it takes to be a good reader. I've focused on what it takes to be able to read words quickly and accurately, because that's critical.

Speaker 7 You can't be a good reader without being good at reading the words. But that's not enough.
There is a lot more to reading.

Speaker 7 And this has been one of the criticisms of my reporting, that it's focused too much on word reading and not enough on comprehension, on what it takes to understand what you read.

Speaker 7 And I heard from people who expressed that criticism in response to Solda's story.

Speaker 18 I'm Claude Goldenberg.

Speaker 7 Claude Goldenberg was a professor of education at Stanford. He retired a few years ago.

Speaker 18 But I'm still involved in working through reading issues, reading policy, reading problems, reading research.

Speaker 7 He wrote me an email after hearing the first two episodes of the podcast.

Speaker 7 One of the things that you said in that email to me in October is there's a huge danger we're digging another hole for ourselves by appearing, maybe unintentionally, to extol foundational skills as silver bullets.

Speaker 7 So can you say more about that? Like, what's the danger? What are you actually noticing out there?

Speaker 18 Well, I get the impression, and sometimes more than just an impression, there's like this sort of dismissing, like, yeah, okay, right.

Speaker 18 We know there's more, but you got to get those foundational skills down.

Speaker 7 He's concerned that schools aren't paying enough attention to the vocabulary development and knowledge building that's necessary for kids to become good readers.

Speaker 18 I think one of the things I said in my email was even if you were to, in each episode, just make a brief aside, you know, 30 seconds.

Speaker 18 Look, ladies and gentlemen, we know there's more to reading than foundational skills. We also know that that's been a glaring gap.
in reading education.

Speaker 18 But no one should walk away from this podcast thinking that if he just got foundational skills right, everything would be okay.

Speaker 7 He's right.

Speaker 7 Things will not be okay if all schools get better at is teaching kids how to decode words. And here's the thing.

Speaker 7 Making sure that kids get the knowledge and vocabulary they need to comprehend what they read may actually be the bigger challenge.

Speaker 7 It takes years and years of schooling, and it's where family income and educational background tend to make a big difference. Because kids don't just learn vocabulary and knowledge at school.

Speaker 7 They learn a lot at home and through the experiences they have every day, the people they meet, the places they go, the information they're exposed to.

Speaker 18 The challenge of bringing literacy on a massive scale to an entire population is a tall order.

Speaker 7 Claude Goldenberg doesn't want anyone to be under the impression that just teaching kids how to decode words will lead to better reading comprehension.

Speaker 18 We need to have a teaching force

Speaker 18 that understands these things with as much kind of nuance and complexity as possible.

Speaker 7 He's concerned that people are rushing to adopt simple solutions to a complex problem.

Speaker 7 And changes are coming fast. State legislators across the country are passing laws.
We need to improve reading in Wisconsin. We are all in agreement on that.

Speaker 10 Exhibit one

Speaker 10 is the result of a five-year investigation by an education reporter into reading instruction.

Speaker 22 I'm calling for a renewed focus on literacy and on the way we teach reading in the state of Ohio.

Speaker 7 I'm going to tell you about some of the laws being passed in response to the podcast and why I'm kind of worried about some of those laws in the next episode of Soul to Story.

Speaker 7 The best way to keep up with our reporting is to follow the show in your podcast app and sign up for our email list. There's a link in the show notes.

Speaker 7 And also a link to our website, soldastory.org, where you can find transcripts, additional articles, a reading list, and a podcast discussion guide.

Speaker 7 This episode was produced by me with Eliza Billingham and Christopher Peake. Our editor was Chris Julin.
He also did mixing, sound design, and made some of the music.

Speaker 7 Final mastering of this episode was by Alex Simpson. The Soul to Story theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly.

Speaker 7 Our digital editor is Andy Cruz. The acting deputy managing editor of APM Reports is Tom Scheck.
And our executive editor is Jane Helmke.

Speaker 7 Support for this podcast comes from the Hollyhawk Foundation, the Oak Foundation, and Wendy and Stephen Gall.

Speaker 1 Extra value meals are back. For just $5, get a savory and sweet sausage, egg, and cheese McGrittles, plus hash browns and a coffee.
Only at McDonald's.

Speaker 3 For limited time only, prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California, and for delivery.