S23 Ep9: Bad Marriage

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Speaker 2 Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences. This season contains discussions of medical negligence, birth trauma, and infant loss, which may be upsetting for some listeners.

Speaker 2 For a full content warning, sources, and resources, please visit the episode notes.

Speaker 2 Opinions shared by the guests of the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of myself, broken psychle media, and wondery.

Speaker 2 The podcast and any linked materials should not be misconstrued as a substitution for legal or medical advice.

Speaker 2 Origins birth and wellness owners and midwives Caitlin Wages and Gina Thompson have not responded to our requests for comment.

Speaker 2 Additionally, midwives Jennifer Crawford and Elizabeth Fuel have also not returned our request for comment.

Speaker 2 This season is dedicated with love to Malik.

Speaker 2 don't know me well.

Speaker 2 You don't know

Speaker 2 anybody

Speaker 2 until you talk

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 someone.

Speaker 3 Hi, my name is Brittany. I was a birth photographer out of Origins.
I rented space from Gina and Caitlin's. That began 2015.

Speaker 3 I had a birth photographer for my oldest son. Capturing the emotions from his birth was so special to me, and I just wanted to be involved with birth.
I love it.

Speaker 3 I have photographed over 200 births, probably close to 300 now.

Speaker 3 I was a surrogate for Caitlin Wages in July of 2017 while officing Out of Origins as a birth photographer. I worked very closely with Gina Thompson and Caitlin Wages during this time.

Speaker 2 Speaking to the relationship that you had with Caitlin regarding being her surrogate, how did that conversation come about?

Speaker 3 It was a big decision. I actually had a dream about being a surrogate.
It is something that I had thought about many times.

Speaker 3 My business partner, who I was doing photography with at the time, and I were moving in to our media room and office upstairs at the birth center.

Speaker 3 Gina and Caitlin were getting the birthner all set up.

Speaker 3 I passed Caitlin in the hall and saw that they had set up one of the birthrooms and I said, oh my gosh, if I'm ever a surrogate, I want to deliver at the birth center because it's so beautiful.

Speaker 3 She stopped and she said, I'm going through files looking for a client that might want to be my surrogate.

Speaker 3 That sparked the conversation and then a few months later, my husband and myself and Caitlin and her husband, we were all sitting down at dinner going over logistics and decided to move move forward.

Speaker 3 They had just lost their son and were grieving and we were all hopeful to bring back a little bit of hope and love to their lives.

Speaker 2 What was the process like becoming pregnant as a surrogate?

Speaker 3 I have actually blocked out a lot of that because it was pretty traumatic for me. I do remember

Speaker 3 that it was a lot. We went through psyche evals.
We had to do contracts. We each had our own lawyers.
We did not go through an agency. We did

Speaker 3 one

Speaker 3 set of hormones. I actually had to wean my son early too, which is something that I look back on and I'm a little sad about.
Every round of hormones was brutal. We get to the day of transfer.

Speaker 3 It was a fresh transfer and we find out that none of the eggs were viable. So that did not work out and I had to abruptly stop the hormones.
So that was awful. That was torture on my body.

Speaker 3 I did not feel comfortable complaining to Caitlin or anything. I felt like, what do you have to complain to her about? She is devastated of her own accord.
And then we did another transfer.

Speaker 3 So all new hormones start all over again, six months or whatnot later. And then that resulted.
in her baby that was born in July of 2017.

Speaker 3 It felt like I was getting good care. I rotated just like they did with their clients.
So I saw Caitlin for one appointment, then Gina, and then their other midwife that was working with them.

Speaker 3 At the time, I felt like they did a good job during prenatal. I don't feel like anything was off.
Caitlin wanted to do massive amounts of blood work. She was overly protective of not even me.

Speaker 3 It was her son that she was overly protective of. I think at one point I was taking 36 vitamins per day, but I don't feel like anything was off.

Speaker 3 During pregnancy, there were no red flags for me at all. Caitlin was extremely anxious to meet her son, rightfully so.
I was anxious as any pregnant woman is.

Speaker 3 She decided she wanted to induce the midwife way. which is stripping membranes, doing the breast pump, all of those things.

Speaker 3 I kind of had some hesitations, but no alarm bells going off or anything like that. I was over 39 weeks.
She's stripping membranes and I'm doing the breast pump. Finally, she gets me into labor.

Speaker 3 My contractions have been pretty regular. Nothing was really painful.
It gets to later in the day and he keeps putting his hand up above his head and they get him to put his hand down.

Speaker 3 They were not too too terribly concerned. Caitlin went to do a cervical check.
She's doing cervical checks for her own baby. She feels his nose instead of the back top of his noggin.

Speaker 3 She doesn't say anything to me. She asks Gina or the other midwife to feel

Speaker 3 and they say that's a nose. And then the other one, the third person, goes in and feels too.
And they all agree.

Speaker 3 And that's when they start saying, we have to go right now to Texas Health Alliance that's like two miles down the road. While they're on the phone, I'm asking, can I do hands and knees?

Speaker 3 Like, is there anything I can do to help? I've been to lots of births. I know that there's stuff you can do to get a baby to turn.
And they're like, yeah, yeah, you can do that.

Speaker 3 But they're all so preoccupied in their little huddle that they're not paying any attention to me.

Speaker 3 And they're all freaking out about the baby because Caitlin has already lost one child and they can't let her lose another one.

Speaker 2 It sounds like you felt like in the moment that the concern was for her son, but there wasn't that same level of concern for you.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. And even looking back, I'm like, the way his hand kept going up in my pelvis and how big my pelvis is, if I had done inversions or anything, we could have gotten him to move.

Speaker 3 We eventually get in the car and I ride hands and knees, but with my chest to the ground to the hospital and they have the Doppler and they're freaking out.

Speaker 3 I remember them telling me at one point that his neck might break and then we get there and the OB says, yep, we're going to take you back. I had an emergency cesarean with her son.

Speaker 3 He was born around 4 a.m.

Speaker 3 Gina and Caitlin brought him into my hospital room. They got a different room.
Well, they brought the entire family, but I was exhausted. I honestly have no recollection of that happening.

Speaker 3 I remember it from pictures, that's all. The next morning, around 10, my husband wasn't there.
He had gone home to check on the kids, something.

Speaker 3 Gina and Caitlin come in with the baby and let me know that they're checking out with the baby against medical advice.

Speaker 3 Because midwives can provide care for babies until six weeks and they didn't feel like they needed to be there. But I was there.
I think that I ended up being able to leave by that night.

Speaker 3 Maybe I did have to stay. I don't remember.
The surrogacy is so blurry to me because I have blocked it out. That is how I survived working with Caitlin.

Speaker 3 Whenever I look back on that pregnancy, I'm like, wow, that pregnancy wasn't handled properly. But it all felt like rainbows and sunshine and butterflies because I was getting all of this attention.

Speaker 3 My care providers were Caitlin and Gina and then their other midwife partner. That's not right.
Why would the mother be my care provider? I have my records pulled up, but these are Origins records.

Speaker 3 Origins did not keep records of when you're in the hospital. They track what's going on at Origins.
That's it.

Speaker 3 Postpartum care at Origins was a two to three day visit, a two-week visit, and then a six-week visit. We did a two- to three-day visit at the birth center and Caitlin did a herbal bath afterwards.

Speaker 3 Let me tell you about the bath. It contains herbs that are supposed to be healing for the mom after giving birth.

Speaker 3 Baby's not supposed to have a bath immediately, but Caitlin used it for a marketing ploy and to use the beauty of the birth center to lure people in to something that it shouldn't have been.

Speaker 3 18 months or at at least a year later. They still had one more embryo left.
I felt like so many eyes were on me and everybody knew there was one embryo left and I couldn't tell her no.

Speaker 3 And we did that transfer. I did blood work for my progesterone at the end of August of 2018.

Speaker 3 And that resulted in a miscarriage.

Speaker 3 It was traumatic going through a miscarriage. That was the only miscarriage I've ever had.
I think that the miscarriage did slightly change my view of her because she acted like it didn't even happen.

Speaker 3 And that was bizarre. I'm miscarrying someone else's baby and they barely acknowledged it.
Another thing is Caitlin let all of my medical bills go to collections. after the C-section.

Speaker 3 They were all in my name because I was the patient.

Speaker 2 Your agreement was that she was supposed to pay them.

Speaker 3 Yes. She finally paid them after they went to collections.

Speaker 3 My relationship with Caitlin was unhealthy. I laid in Caitlin's bed with her while she cried on the anniversary of her son's death.

Speaker 2 It has to be such a different intimacy.

Speaker 3 It was. You're always giving them the benefit of the doubt every step of the way.
But it was also like a bad marriage. That's the best way that I can describe origins.

Speaker 3 Where it starts out so great and then slowly it goes downhill.

Speaker 3 I think about

Speaker 3 two years in, I was like, Caitlin doesn't give a crap about me. I knew that with my whole being.

Speaker 3 It's kind of that thing where everybody thinks that they're Caitlin's best friend. She wants everybody to like her and she wants to be in the spotlight.
You always know when Caitlin's in the building.

Speaker 3 Caitlin craves attention. I truly think that Gina has a good heart.

Speaker 3 I've struggled with this whole thing with Gina a lot because I don't feel like anything that has happened has been in Gina's heart, but she has gone along with it because she did not want to deal with Caitlin and what it would take to get out of it.

Speaker 3 Being the birth photographer that officed out of there.

Speaker 3 Something that always bothered us is Caitlin wanted to always take credit for us getting clients and they charged us a crazy amount for rent but really they used our photos our videos for marketing we were called birth unscripted a lot of our videos went crazy viral the honest company we were in one of their commercials caitlin is in the commercial people found them through our work

Speaker 3 We would ask them in the tours, where did you find us? And they'd say, oh, we saw your video. Your video went viral.
It's like, well, this is a mutually beneficial relationship.

Speaker 3 You can't say that it's not. But then she would try and like raise our rent.

Speaker 2 So you felt like she was kind of trying to take credit and hold that over your head a little bit.

Speaker 3 Caitlin takes credit for everything, always.

Speaker 3 Caitlin often spout out statistics that I could never find any information on afterwards. She just would say things that...

Speaker 3 Often afterwards, Gina and I would look at each other like, where'd she get that one from?

Speaker 3 In November November of 2018, I started working at Origins. I was the office manager from 2018 to March 2021 at Fort Worth only.

Speaker 3 And then I was the executive director from March 2021 to January of 2024. I would do paperwork.
I had access to charts. You have to have them sign that waiver.

Speaker 3 The document that Kristen's like, I should have never signed that. They've always told me, this is all the stuff that you sign in the hospital.
And so, I didn't question it, right?

Speaker 3 I'm like, well, I don't know what I sign in the hospital. If I ever do go to the hospital, I never read that stuff anyway.
So, what do I know?

Speaker 2 Some clients had reported that all of their notes and their chart were made under the same login, and also several had changes made to them weeks and months after treatment.

Speaker 2 I'm wondering if you have any insight that you could offer.

Speaker 3 So, the way Maternity Neighborhood was handled was that each midwife at hire was given a login. Then Dallas had a main login and Fort Worth had a main login.

Speaker 3 Maternity Neighborhood had one overall system

Speaker 3 for both locations that the main logins could toggle between the systems. Only the admin is supposed to have the main login.

Speaker 3 Gina and Caitlin chose to put the main login in our password document for everyone to have. I don't remember why this was in there.

Speaker 3 I feel like it was needed along the way for something, but somehow it ended up staying on there.

Speaker 3 And every time the password got changed, it was updated on the password document and everyone had access to it. So it got saved on all the computers.
I am the one that gave everybody logins.

Speaker 3 I did all the onboarding for everyone. So every single midwife had their own individual login to maternity neighborhood and they were told explicitly to use their own login.

Speaker 3 If they were not using their login, I would tell them repeatedly to use their own login. We also had reports that were run

Speaker 3 or were supposed to be run by the clinical director. It would tell you if the charts needed to be resolved for something, like if they weren't assigned or things like that.

Speaker 3 So this was a good indication if that login was being used too much.

Speaker 3 If I saw this report was using that login too much, then I would try to go through the chart and see because you can match it to the schedule and see who's using that login and I would get on them.

Speaker 3 Thing is, the midwives didn't like it when I did that because they think that I'm micromanaging them or whatnot.

Speaker 3 But I did not like it when they did this because it's not good for charting, it's not good for clients, all the things.

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Speaker 3 Things really morphed and changed from the time that I started working there. Whenever I first started working there, Gina and Caitlin were doing clinic.
They were active midwives in the practice.

Speaker 3 I want to say around 2019,

Speaker 3 they decided to step back and just run the business is what they would call it. That's when things really started going downhill.

Speaker 3 And I don't think it had anything to do specifically with the midwives that worked there. We often place blame on that, that they weren't as invested in the business as Gina and Caitlin were.

Speaker 3 They couldn't sell products like Gina and Caitlin could, or love on clients like Gina and Caitlin could. And part of that is true.
The clients loved Gina and Caitlin.

Speaker 3 Caitlin can make anyone believe that you are her best friend. So they had a cult-like following by the time they stopped.
doing clinic.

Speaker 3 Repeat clients would come back and they were so upset that Gina and Caitlin weren't doing births. Gina and Caitlin would make exceptions for their special clients.

Speaker 3 Once a week they'd still be in clinic doing their special clients, but then that phased out over the past few years.

Speaker 3 Whenever COVID hit, the midwives stopped going to the hospital with clients. Before that, midwives always went to the hospital with clients.

Speaker 3 COVID hit and then the midwives weren't allowed to go to the hospitals anymore.

Speaker 3 So they just had to turn their patients over to the hospital staff and they go to sleep or go back to clinic or go about their day. It never changed afterwards.

Speaker 3 So as much as I kept saying to Gina and Caitlin, the midwives have to go with the clients. Let's figure out a way.
Let's do this. Let's do that.

Speaker 3 That they'd say, well, we're on call and we have all these patients, which sometimes that was true. Gina and Caitlin would never cap their patients.
That was the other issue.

Speaker 3 It didn't matter if a patient was absolutely horrendously rude to my admin staff. It didn't matter if the midwives were already overworked and begging not to take any more clients.

Speaker 3 Gina and Caitlin said, we're taking them. Then the midwives were overworked and sometimes they would have to just send the patients to the hospital because they had another client in labor.

Speaker 3 They didn't care. Gina and Caitlin wanted the money.

Speaker 3 As the years went on after Caitlin and Gina moved out of clinic and their repeat clients kept having babies and they started seeking care elsewhere.

Speaker 3 Both of them were very offended when this would happen. Caitlin, more so than Gina.
Caitlin did not like it at all.

Speaker 3 Oftentimes she would call them personally and try to convince them to come into care and let them know that if they did come into care, she or them both would do their prenatal care and their birth.

Speaker 3 Sometimes when she would promise them this, she would have whoever was on call show up to their birth and then whenever they were in active labor or nearing the end, Caitlin would show up, deliver their baby, and then leave right afterwards.

Speaker 3 This was always very disappointing for the clients. I've spoken to a few of them that that happened to.

Speaker 3 This usually happened in Fort Worth, not Dallas, because that's where Gina and Caitlin did clinics. But they were always disappointed that they were promised one thing and didn't get it.

Speaker 3 But we very rarely saw repeats at the end of my time there.

Speaker 3 We definitely had more upset clients towards the end than ever before. One of our previous employees that was office manager and then we created a role for her, patient advocate.

Speaker 3 She wasn't in that role for very long and she left about a year before me, maybe a little bit less. She was like, I can't do it.
I can't handle all of these upset clients.

Speaker 3 She saw every single upset client. That was her job to deal with that and try and fix the problems.
But it was getting worse and worse and worse.

Speaker 2 Can you recall what most clients were unhappy with?

Speaker 3 I mean, they were different things. A big thing that really,

Speaker 3 really bothered the patient advocate and myself was miscarriage follow-up. Because of the way the collective was, that there's three midwives or whatever.
No one would follow up with this patient.

Speaker 3 So they would just fall off the radar. We would get complaints all the time.
My midwife just forgot about me. She abandoned me.
Y'all don't even care about me. So that was really frustrating.

Speaker 3 And that was one thing that we felt really strongly about. And the patient advocate and I worked really hard to create a system to put in place for the midwives.
We had to do that as admin staff.

Speaker 3 And we actually put in place to where the admin was calling and following up because at the end of the day, I said, I don't think the patients care who's calling them as long as someone is calling them.

Speaker 3 So I was telling my admin staff, you're going to call, put it on your to-do list. If you see that there's a miscarriage, you call them and just say, I'm just checking in with you.

Speaker 3 I'm going to go ahead and schedule you an appointment with the midwife. Is that okay? Are you comfortable coming in or would you prefer that we just schedule a phone call? I always got that question.

Speaker 3 How many babies have you lost? And for the first several years, I was able to say we've never lost any moms or babies.

Speaker 3 But I just remember at some point someone saying there's been all these neonatal deaths at Origins in the past two years.

Speaker 3 And as the executive director that worked directly with Gina and Caitlin saying, what? To not know that. I knew of a few, but not that that many had happened in such a short amount of time.

Speaker 3 All of them were at Origins, Dallas. I would hear about them in passing and I was given a little bit of details.

Speaker 3 I do remember one of these bursts specifically because several people had access to our cameras, but I'm the main one that knew how to work them. I had them set up.

Speaker 2 Security cameras?

Speaker 3 Yes. Whenever we had one of these fetal demises, I had to check the camera.

Speaker 3 In an emergency, a midwife is entering things quickly into a chart or even paper charting and then they have to go back and enter it into maternity neighborhood later.

Speaker 3 So I had to go into the camera and get accurate times of when Nikki arrived, when they left, all of those things, so that she could accurately enter it into the chart during this emergency.

Speaker 3 I believe it was after that incident that Baylor and Nikki decided to no longer come to Origins Dallas.

Speaker 3 Baylor Dallas actually asked us to remove them off of the Origins tour and our website because they didn't want to be affiliated with us.

Speaker 2 Did Caitlin or Gina ever speak about why babies were lost with you or in front of you?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 3 There was never any follow-up with how are we going to fix this? Are we going to do any

Speaker 3 action plan? Are we going to do any roundtable or anything. We used to sit down with everybody that was at the birth.

Speaker 3 And if anytime there was a traumatic birth or anything that you needed to basically learn from, you would sit down with everybody that was at the birth and you would talk about it.

Speaker 3 You would process the birth essentially. And it never really made sense to me why they didn't do that with any of these difficult births or why we weren't coming up with solutions.

Speaker 3 for any of these things.

Speaker 3 And I did constantly suggest solutions.

Speaker 3 At one point, we even came up with a solution and the midwives were even begging to break up into smaller teams of two to where clients could pick your team of two midwives.

Speaker 3 So you're still at Origins, but instead of seeing like a team of three or four midwives, you're going to a pair of midwives because I think that's where a lot of the things got missed.

Speaker 3 You're getting tossed around three midwives and then you have people filling in for those midwives. It's just chaos all the time.

Speaker 3 And it makes me so sad that origins didn't care enough about these mothers or these babies that I, as the executive director, didn't know enough about these mothers or these babies that I don't know their names.

Speaker 3 We had a mom in the ICU and I didn't know about that.

Speaker 3 That is mind-boggling to know that we had a mom in the ICU while I worked there and I didn't know about it.

Speaker 3 They sold this, the collective as, you know, well-rested midwives that you always know and you love your team, but that's definitely not what the clients got. The midwives were overworked.

Speaker 3 If somebody was out sick or had an emergency, the other midwives never wanted to pick up a shift. I don't blame them.
They're exhausted. Gina and Caitlin rarely, rarely ever stepped up.

Speaker 3 And if they did, it was for like half a day or a few hours. Gina was way better at this than Caitlin.
If Caitlin did anything, she wanted to get paid for it. She wanted extra pay.

Speaker 3 That always drove me crazy. The midwives were made to work through their personal emergencies, family emergencies, their own medical emergencies.

Speaker 3 There are some midwives that were actively working where Gina and Caitlin would not help them while they are having medical emergencies. You can't be a good midwife in that situation.

Speaker 3 So they actually reached out to Gina and Caitlin for help and they were told they had to work. How can you sell a collective to your clients? And then this is happening.

Speaker 3 2022, August, Caitlin, she had an early birthday party with their son. Gina was there.
Our childbirth educator was there, which is one of her best friends. And then our patient advocate.

Speaker 3 I wasn't invited. I literally gave birth to this child and you didn't think that you should invite me, even though I'm friends with every person here.

Speaker 3 Like I spend every day with these people, and they're all sitting by a pool taking a picture with him.

Speaker 3 You literally do not give a crap about me. That sealed it in my brain for me.

Speaker 3 Of all those little moments over the past however many years, everything that had happened, that was the moment that I was like, you do not care one ounce about me.

Speaker 3 In August of 2022, I gave my resignation and Gina and Caitlin rejected my resignation and offered me more money to stay on. Obviously, I wish I would have not taken that and walked away.

Speaker 3 I actually wrote a letter to them about all of the things that I thought they were doing wrong in their business whenever I put in my resignation.

Speaker 3 I read the letter out loud to them, sitting in front of them in person.

Speaker 2 Why were you trying to resign at that time?

Speaker 3 They had brought on a new clinical director for both locations, Darlene. Darlene's daughter was a midwife at Fort Worth, midwife free.
Darlene oversaw everything medical, like clinical-wise.

Speaker 3 So all the midwives reported to her, but she had no licensure in Texas. In the state of Texas, you have to be a licensed provider to be a clinical director at a birth center.
I did not know that then.

Speaker 2 Why did they think she was qualified to have this job?

Speaker 3 Because they were desperate to do less work. Darlene and I always butted heads.

Speaker 3 Looking back, I think they pitted us against each other because they would always tell me I needed to call her and work it out. But they would tell me one thing and Darlene another.

Speaker 3 So triangulation is a narcissistic tactic where they kind of like separate people and pit them against people. Looking back, I think that they did that a lot.
They made me do their dirty work a lot.

Speaker 3 And then at one point, they tried to tell me I had to change my job responsibility so that I didn't ever have to see Darlene. And that's whenever I was like, nope, I'm out.
I'm putting in my notice.

Speaker 3 They were like, well, we can't lose you. We're going to make a plan to get rid of Darlene.

Speaker 3 It was not good. They did not get along at all, her and Jen, because Jen had just been told she could be a clinical director.
And then they gave it to Darlene. Nobody at Dallas was happy with her.

Speaker 2 And when you say Jen, you mean Jennifer Crawford, right?

Speaker 3 Correct.

Speaker 3 I gave them my resignation letter and said they were like, okay, we have to get Darlene out of Dallas. They told her, you're only going to work at Fort Worth.

Speaker 3 And then she said, well, if I'm not going to be at both locations, then I'm quitting, which is what they wanted her to do.

Speaker 3 Fast forward, Bree and Darlene now run the Center for Birth and Wellness, which is the Old Origins Fort Worth location. Darlene is the director of that location.

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Speaker 2 There are allegations that Jennifer was practicing midwifery without her license. Were you aware of those sorts of staffing incidences where students were allowed to practice midwifery unsupervised?

Speaker 3 So Gina and Caitlin had all of their students essentially practice once they completed their numbers. I guess once they were graduate midwives is what they called them.

Speaker 3 What they kind of sold to their staff was that as long as their preceptor was within an hour of them,

Speaker 3 then they were allowed to do so.

Speaker 2 If they were graduate midwives, why didn't they just get their license? Because they hadn't passed their tests, basically.

Speaker 3 Right. They were waiting to sit for their test and they were submitting their paperwork and going through all of those steps.
This is something they've been doing for years. Jen, I think, is unique.

Speaker 3 I'm not excusing anything that has happened. Jen was given too much responsibility.
And

Speaker 3 right out of the bat, as a brand new baby midwife, she took on the role as clinical director right after getting her license. Jen basically ran Origins Dallas.

Speaker 3 She reported to Gina and Caitlin, but she handled the call schedule at Dallas. All of the midwives reported to her.

Speaker 3 She handled all of the student midwives, even though she had became licensed just recently herself.

Speaker 3 Anything that I needed or my admin team needed that related to the midwifery team, we had to go through her. Plus, she was going to births.
If anybody couldn't find a birth assistant, she had to go.

Speaker 3 So there were many weeks where Jen was working, by my guess, 80 plus hours a week. She would get calls in the middle of the night.
She was not sleeping.

Speaker 2 Why did they think that she could handle this?

Speaker 3 Because she acted like she could handle it. Jen always acted very well put together and like she could handle everything.
She was very good at that.

Speaker 2 How many other midwives midwives were working underneath Jennifer during this era of the birth center?

Speaker 3 Elizabeth was there. We had a CNM.
And there was another midwife, Danielle, but she left. There really wasn't a lot of turnover at Dallas, which is so weird to me.

Speaker 2 Well, it sounds like Jennifer was taking on a lot of it towards the end.

Speaker 3 She was. Until she couldn't.
And unfortunately, we're seeing how that played out.

Speaker 2 Did Jennifer ever speak to you about any of the babies that she lost?

Speaker 3 Yes, she talked to me about Marquita some.

Speaker 3 I heard so many different things about that that I don't remember exactly what Jen said.

Speaker 3 I remember hearing about how the assistant midwife at that birth went to the wrong entrance.

Speaker 3 And it obviously caused a slight delay in getting her there to labor and delivery. After that happened,

Speaker 3 we printed maps and instructions.

Speaker 3 I laminated them and put them in all of the birthrooms and made printable versions to grab and take so that if any parents needed them or doulas, midwives could grab them and take them as well.

Speaker 3 So there's directions, what entrance to go to with clear instructions. So we tried to at least make a slight improvement.

Speaker 2 When they had the meeting and giving the updated information about protocol regarding the hospital, et cetera, do you recall if they spoke to why this occurred or any sort of specifics as far as why did Malik die?

Speaker 3 There was no meeting. We had a messaging system called FLOC that we used.
where we could have like group messages or individual messages.

Speaker 3 There was a Dallas all-staff and then a Fort Worth all-staff and then there was one for everybody. And sometimes there would be a message about something.

Speaker 3 They would usually use ChatGBT to help them put something together or they would ask me or the patient advocate to help write something and then tell us to send it to them to proofread before it got posted.

Speaker 3 I don't remember anything being posted about Malik

Speaker 3 after they went to the hospital not knowing what happened.

Speaker 3 I remember specifically me and the financial director, we were looking on the medical examiner website to try and find out what happened

Speaker 3 and we found out that he passed away.

Speaker 2 Do you think that their clients were in danger? towards the end when you reflect on the circumstances of the birth center and how things were being run.

Speaker 3 Now,

Speaker 3 looking back, I do. I feel like the midwives had no support

Speaker 3 and they had no ongoing training or reflection of how they could do better.

Speaker 3 I was talking to my husband, who's an engineer manager, and he's like, if we mess up something and it costs us money, What do we do to fix it?

Speaker 3 We go through and we figure out where we messed up in the process and we fix the process.

Speaker 3 So why,

Speaker 3 whenever

Speaker 3 you lose a life, are you not going back and figuring out where you messed up in the process and trying to fix it?

Speaker 3 And even if you're claiming that it wasn't your fault, are you not going back and trying to improve your process?

Speaker 3 to improve times or this or that or any possible way to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Speaker 3 I don't think any midwife can practice safely or effectively whenever they have family members in the hospital or are dealing with medical emergencies on their own or working exorbitant amount of hours.

Speaker 3 I just don't think that's possible. And I do think that they're a danger to their clients.

Speaker 3 So I think that there needs to be something in place to stop that from happening.

Speaker 3 Where is the cutoff for our midwives? Why are they doing 24-hour call shifts with no help, no relief?

Speaker 3 At the beginning of January of 2024, I did the numbers of our transfers, transports, how many hospital births we had, how many birth center births we had, all of that. And I had done it for 2023

Speaker 3 and it was ready in 2024, right? So this was right before I got laid off. I called Gina and Caitlin.
I was like, these numbers are not good for Dallas. Transport and labor is not good.

Speaker 3 And told them what it was. I want to say it was 31%.

Speaker 3 And they were like, well, you need to call Jen and talk to her about it. Why would I need to call Jen and talk to her about it? I'm not Jen's boss.
Jen and I had a really good relationship.

Speaker 3 So I called Jen and I was just like, I don't know why they want me to call you, but here it is. What do you think we can do about this? And she was like, well, I need their help.

Speaker 3 Like I need some support. I'm working too much and we'll figure it out.
And then I think she called them or something. I don't really know what happened after that.

Speaker 3 I haven't spoken to Jen since a month or so after I was laid off from Origins.

Speaker 3 I actually went to Gina and Caitlin, I think it was five days before I got laid off and told them your midwives need better support. Your midwives are going to leave.
They're burnt out.

Speaker 3 They were actively coming to me and begging for help. I was kind of the liaison between the staff and Gina and Caitlin.

Speaker 3 I think that that has a lot to do with why I was laid off because that was the harshest conversation I had ever had with them.

Speaker 3 Like you guys are going to have to step up and quit making them work through hard things and find a solution.

Speaker 3 When Gina and Caitlin laid me off, I was sitting in a room with them and I did tell them they were going to be screwed actually.

Speaker 3 I set up everything for their company and everything was through my phone number and my email and they didn't even know what all I did for them, but it's fine. They figured it out.

Speaker 3 They offered me two weeks of severance. The next day they backpedaled and they said that they would only offer me severance if I signed an NDA.

Speaker 3 I told them I would not sign their NDA that they could keep their money. I went on to be unemployed for eight months and that was fine.

Speaker 3 I mean, I did need their money, let's be real, but it wasn't worth it. Their attorney actually did call me at one point.
I know their attorney very well.

Speaker 3 I worked with them many times over the past five years for different stuff. So he just called me and he was like, they want to know how much you want to sign the NDA.
And I said, I'm not signing that.

Speaker 3 And he said, okay, well, I wish you all the best.

Speaker 3 The reason I didn't sign the NDA and the reason that I wrote a Glassdoor review. Well, it kind of felt like I lost my identity.
A lot of my identity was in origins.

Speaker 3 But I felt like I was speaking up for for all the employees that they had screwed over before me.

Speaker 2 Did they say you were laid off or that they were firing you for a reason?

Speaker 3 They said that I was laid off for financial reasons, which makes sense. They had been in financial burden.

Speaker 2 Did you have any insight into whether or not they were doing okay business-wise?

Speaker 3 There are... several pieces to that.
I didn't know that then, but now I have learned some things. They are being investigated for Medicaid fraud.
There's an open, active investigation.

Speaker 3 Another thing is Caitlin was always spending money. Caitlin asked for money for everything she did, and this definitely took away from profitability.

Speaker 3 So whereas Gina just took her salary, and if she needed to do something extra, so be it. That was part of her job as an owner, right? You fill in where you're needed.

Speaker 3 Caitlin wanted to be paid for everything she did. The other thing is Caitlin's husband is a general contractor and he did all the work on the birth center and expected to be paid very well for that.

Speaker 3 He always stayed busy and I think that that's where a lot of our profitability went.

Speaker 2 Do you know if he got licenses, like approval from the city to make those renovations?

Speaker 3 I found out after I left that he did not have any. I was not aware of any of that at the time.
He handled all of the renovations. I believe it was February of 2021 when the freeze happened.

Speaker 3 The pipes burst in 10 places and the entire clinic side of the building. The ceilings fell down.
The furniture was ruined. We had to rent another building down the street to do clinic out of.

Speaker 3 Luckily, the birth suites were okay. But it was a very chaotic time.
We were moved out for three months while he did those renovations.

Speaker 3 So we were completely unaware of what licenses he had gotten or not. The only thing I was aware of was that there was not a certificate of occupancy.

Speaker 3 Early on within the first few years, we had discussed the certificate of occupancy and I had a file of paperwork handed to me of stuff that the previous office manager had been working on.

Speaker 3 And I was like, okay, I'll keep working on this. And Caitlin's husband took that from me and said, I will handle this.
That was the last I heard of that.

Speaker 3 I had never seen a certificate of occupancy or anything else moving forward.

Speaker 3 I had access to Origins, all the maternity neighborhoods for months after I was laid off. Months.

Speaker 3 So I had access to hundreds, if not a thousand patient files, all of their medical records for months after I left Origins. That is a huge HIPAA violation.
So I reported it.

Speaker 3 Do you think that they did anything about it? Nope. They emailed the Office for Civil Rights.
I filed a complaint against Origins and they just basically told them that they had to fix it.

Speaker 3 They didn't. They told them again they had to fix it.
They did.

Speaker 3 That was the end of it. They closed the case.
There's still an open case with the Medicaid Medicaid fraud, but there's been insurance fraud going on there.

Speaker 3 They owe hundreds of thousands of dollars to patients in refunds. And there's just no one to report this stuff to to where they can be held accountable.
And I think that is my issue with all of this.

Speaker 3 Where's the follow-through and how do you hold these people accountable? I want these midwives to be able to practice and I want them to be able to take care of clients.

Speaker 3 I want to see midwives to have some autonomy because I've had amazing experiences with midwives.

Speaker 3 But I do think that there needs to be some kind of overseeing body that actually takes complaints seriously, that actually investigates things and looks at them truly and wholly, not just shuts the case and moves on with their lives.

Speaker 2 I had a follow-up interview with Brittany after our initial recording, but unfortunately due to audio issues, the audio is unusable.

Speaker 2 But because what Brittany is alleging is so important, I'm going to summarize. According to her, Origins held a retreat for midwives twice yearly.

Speaker 2 Each of the two annual retreats typically lasted about three days, Friday through Sunday. They were reportedly often hosted at Gina's primary residence or her lake house.

Speaker 2 The purpose of one of these retreats was to annually review their policies and procedures, and the other was intended to be a fun getaway.

Speaker 2 All of the midwives were required to go as it was written into their offer letter. However, this left clients without any origins midwives available during these periods.

Speaker 2 Instead, they had outside midwives cover the birth centers. Often one of the students also stayed behind to provide some continuity.

Speaker 2 But the biggest issue Brittany took with these retreats is that the clients were allegedly not made aware that their births could end up happening on one of these weekends.

Speaker 2 That meant that their clients that went into labor on those weekends were surprised by someone they did not know handling their entire labor, delivery, and immediate postpartum care.

Speaker 2 Furthermore, Brittany reflected on how understaffed origins felt then, which has been underscored since she left and began learning what proper staffing numbers were at other local birthing centers.

Speaker 2 Quote, Amy from Allen Midwifery talked about how they are now taking up to 20 clients a a month with six nurse midwives, blew my mind.

Speaker 2 We were taking 20 plus clients per month with three midwives at each birth center.

Speaker 2 To clarify, each birth center was taking 20 plus births each on a good month, and each birth center was staffed with only three midwives, not including Gina or Caitlin, end quote.

Speaker 2 Relatedly, Brittany reports that throughout her time working for Origins Birth and Wellness, she tried to advocate for the midwives, but but ultimately didn't feel any changes were made to rectify staffing issues, overtired midwives, and other logistical issues that could negatively impact midwives, their clients, and their families.

Speaker 2 Brittany shared that after the death of Malik, Origins never had a meeting to reflect as a team on what went wrong, only to refresh their partners on where to enter Baylor.

Speaker 2 Brittany shared that Origins owners did not seem to care when babies were lost, but instead fixated on negative reviews or transfer statistics.

Speaker 2 She alleged that after Marquita left her review, Origins hired a company and paid them $500 to try to remove their negative reviews, explicitly flagging Marquita's needing to be removed.

Speaker 2 Brittany says that she expressed her discomfort in this approach in the meeting with Gina and Caitlin, but her concerns were brushed off.

Speaker 2 What made you decide to speak out?

Speaker 3 I had watched them screw over so many people before me

Speaker 3 and even made me be involved in it.

Speaker 3 So I felt like I was standing up for all of those people that went before me and hadn't been able to stand up for themselves because Gina and Caitlin are very litigious, but I'm not scared of them anymore.

Speaker 3 If they want to do anything, then let them do it.

Speaker 2 Next time on something was wrong.

Speaker 12 I was very much confident I wanted to transfer.

Speaker 12 I tried standing and walking down the stairs. It wasn't happening.
So I scooted on my butt one step at a time down the steps. Elizabeth said that she had to like give us the go-ahead to take off.

Speaker 12 So we were sitting there waiting for her to come out of the house. I remember at one point we were like, how long does it take to write up notes and notify people? We've got to go.

Speaker 12 I'm in the car pushing.

Speaker 2 Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production created and produced by executive producer Tiffany Rees, associate producers Amy B.

Speaker 2 Chesler, and Lily Rowe, with audio editing and music design by Becca High.

Speaker 2 Thank you to our extended team, Lauren Barkman, our social media marketing manager, and Sarah Stewart, our graphic artist.

Speaker 2 Thank you to Marissa, Travis, and our team at WME, Wondery, Jason and Jennifer, our cybersecurity team, Dark Box Security, and my lawyer, Alan.

Speaker 2 Thank you endlessly to every survivor who has ever trusted us with their stories. And thank you, each and every listener, for making our show possible with your support and listenership.

Speaker 2 Special shout out to Emily Wolf for covering Gladrag's original song, You Think You for Us This Season. For more music by Emily Wolf, check out the episode notes or your favorite music streaming app.

Speaker 2 Speaking of episode notes, there, every week you'll find episode-specific content warnings, sources, and resources. Until next time, stay safe, friends.

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