How to Master Small Talk & Why We Do Things Without Knowing Why- SYSK Choice

Speaker 1 Today, on something you should know, why do you have eyebrows? Well, there are three reasons. Then, small talk.
It's really important to be good at it, and we're just not.

Speaker 2 We ask these rhetorical questions and don't expect an answer, so we fall into these ruts. How are you doing, Mike? Good.
How are you, Deborah? Good. What's new? Nothing.

Speaker 2 What's new with you? Nothing. I mean, geez, where are we headed with this? That's where small talk needs a little help.

Speaker 1 Also, if you use a teaspoon from your silverware drawer to take medicine, that's a problem. And why you do what you do and think the way you think.
For instance.

Speaker 3 The key thing to remember is the brain is negatively wired. And when we hear things about any bad news or receive negative feedback, it sticks.
It becomes very cognitively sticky in the brain.

Speaker 3 And it takes quite a lot to dislodge this.

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Speaker 1 Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life today.

Speaker 1 Something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

Speaker 1 Hi, welcome. There's a really interesting website.
I don't know if you've ever seen it called Mental Floss. It's just full of really interesting information.

Speaker 1 And I just came across this thing about why we have eyebrows I'd like to share. And it turns out there are three reasons we have eyebrows.
First, they protect your eyes.

Speaker 1 The shape of the brow ridge and the outward growing hair of the brow channel sweat, rain, and moisture away from your eyeballs, so your vision stays clear.

Speaker 1 They can also catch dust and shield your eyes from sun glare. Secondly, eyebrows are essential for nonverbal communication.

Speaker 1 Scientists who study facial expression say eyebrows are important for expressing happiness, surprise, and anger. Thirdly, eyebrows act as an ID card.

Speaker 1 Eyebrows stand out against the forehead and can clearly be seen from a distance. Eyebrows don't change very much over time, making them perfect for identifying people.

Speaker 1 And that is something you should know.

Speaker 1 A lot of people will tell you, I've heard a lot of people say that they hate small talk. It's boring, it's pointless, often awkward.
Well, maybe, but perhaps it doesn't have to be.

Speaker 1 In fact, small talk may be quite valuable, even rewarding, if you look at it and do it the way Deborah Fine does.

Speaker 1 Deborah is the author of the all-new revised edition of the book, The Fine Art of Small Talk. Hi, Deborah.
Welcome to Something You Should Know.

Speaker 2 Thanks so much, Mike. I'm glad to be here.

Speaker 1 So everybody has their own kind of idea of what small talk is, and it does have kind of a negative connotation to it, like small talk means it doesn't matter, it's just small talk and it's like a bubble that pops, it goes away.

Speaker 1 What's your definition of small talk?

Speaker 2 I agree with you that small talk is definitely demeaned as just a waste of saliva. However, I believe that small talk is the appetizer for any relationship.

Speaker 2 When you look at your social relationships, your romantic relationships, your business relationships, they probably started with small talk and then grew deeper.

Speaker 2 And or that you started in a business conversation such as we are having now. This is a business conversation.
There has been no small talk.

Speaker 2 If we have any hopes of developing a friendship or a business relationship, then it reverts back to small talk talk in order to accomplish that. Small talk is the appetizer for relationships.

Speaker 1 Yet, a lot of people, and I guess I put myself in this category, I don't really like,

Speaker 1 quote, small talk in the sense that it just, as you say, every relationship starts with small talk, but not every conversation with small talk ends up in a relationship. In fact, most don't.

Speaker 1 So, in essence, seems like a waste of time a lot of the time.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I don't have statistics to prove what I'm about to say, Mike.

Speaker 2 And I know where you're coming from. I used to be an engineer, and I was no fan of small talk.
I didn't like chit-chatting with people. I got down to business.

Speaker 2 A part of that was my discomfort with it, too. But small talk,

Speaker 2 think about everyone that's listening. Think about the relationships in your life, the person that is your romantic interest.

Speaker 2 When you went on that first date, even if you started with a virtual via texting app, if your skills in small talk were lousy when you came face to face, I bet it was an excruciating date.

Speaker 2 And I'm surprised it took the journey into a real relationship. The same goes in business, Mike.

Speaker 2 I think that people do business with their friends and you cannot form or cultivate a connection or friendship with someone without introducing small talk.

Speaker 2 Now, small talk doesn't have to just be about the weather or sports. It can be something as simple as

Speaker 2 one of my favorite ways to get to know someone is to ask someone like yourself or anyone, what keeps you busy outside of your work?

Speaker 2 Because that's, Mike, I Google stalked you before going on this program because I'm always prepared with conversation. I didn't find out a lot about you outside of your business and your work history.

Speaker 2 So if I had a chance to have a cup of coffee with you before we launched into another interview or some business collaboration, I would say to you, what keeps you busy outside of your work in order to foster some kind of true relationship with you?

Speaker 2 And I don't think that's a waste of saliva because I would like to get to know you or anybody else I'm with unless they're a class A jerk or abusive in some way. But that goes for your kids' teacher.

Speaker 2 Don't you want to know them a little better beyond the parent back to school night? situation.

Speaker 2 Don't you want to know the person sitting next to you when you're watching the kids' soccer game and or you volunteer for an organization that's dear to your heart and you either want to cultivate connections with fellow volunteers and or bring in new volunteers well small talk comes in handy for that mike there's lots of ways you can use the tools of small talk in a sincere and genuine way to bring those connections into your life so let's talk about the tools of small talk because i love that idea of asking someone what they do outside of work you know i mean i don't i don't talk a lot about it in my business and that's why you didn't find much about it but that's a great question to ask because it makes people think and

Speaker 1 people love to talk about themselves. So that's probably going to be a real conversation opener.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 And also, I don't, I'm not opposed to asking what do you do, especially at an industry conference or I'm at a meeting waiting for it to begin and our vice president is about to launch into whatever.

Speaker 2 You know, then you say, well, what do you do for the organization or what's your connection with work?

Speaker 2 But outside of that, I could be at a party and meet someone's spouse, partner, whomever, and just say, I will say to him, her, they, what keeps you busy?

Speaker 2 It's the same idea. What keeps you busy outside of work? But now I'm at a party.
I'm not sure, do they stay at home with their kids? Are they retired? Are they in transition?

Speaker 2 So just what keeps you busy? The goal is to find something that you are willing to talk about about yourself without putting you on the spot. I'm not going to ask you, Mike, are you married?

Speaker 2 Because what if you say no?

Speaker 2 Where are we headed with this conversation and i'm not going to ask you do you have any kids people do that you know do you have any kids whoa whoa whoa slow this down first of all if they don't have kids you're headed down a rabbit hole secondly if they do have kids they probably won't shut up so either way

Speaker 1 so what are the other tools of small talk besides that that rather great question, but what else works?

Speaker 1 Because as you say, sometimes as the conversation is going down the highway, you smack into a dead end and it is like, oh, now what are we going to talk about? Or, you know, why did I ask that?

Speaker 1 Or, boy, this is going nowhere. So how do you keep it on the rails?

Speaker 2 Okay, so I have a couple of ideas and tools for that. Mike, one is what I call digging in deeper.
So I happen to be married.

Speaker 2 When my husband walks in at the end of my workday today, he'll probably say to me, how was your day? Right? Moni? how are you? Right? Isn't that everyone that's listening that has a spouse or partner?

Speaker 2 That's what we say to one another. And it becomes rhetorical, Mike.
It's like we just mean hello, right?

Speaker 2 If I ask you how your weekend was, it means hello. If I say, how's the project? It just means hello.
It's people

Speaker 2 aren't really asking for a response. They're just...
throwing out these rhetorical questions. So when my husband asks how my day is, how's your day, Deborah?

Speaker 2 I'll say pretty good because I'm not certain he's interested, Mike. If he then digs in deeper with one more question, so what'd you have on your plate today, Deborah?

Speaker 2 Or tell me about, you know, what you worked on today, then I know my husband genuinely wants to talk about my day rather than the fact that the Denver Broncos just hired a new coach, which is what is on his mind only at this moment.

Speaker 2 So digging in deeper is saying to somebody, how are the kids?

Speaker 1 Good.

Speaker 2 So what's new with the kids since the last time we spoke? That's a digging in deeper question. How's the project going, Joe? Oh, pretty good.
So what's been the greatest challenge?

Speaker 2 That's the digging in deeper question.

Speaker 2 How was your vacation? It was great.

Speaker 2 What did you enjoy the most? What was the highlight? What did you think of the speaker today? Oh, good. So what was your number one takeaway?

Speaker 2 I mean, I could go on and on, Mike, and I'm sure you don't want me to. So that's an example of digging in deeper.
And it's critical, especially these days,

Speaker 2 because in north america

Speaker 2 we ask these rhetorical questions and don't expect an answer so we fall into these ruts how you doing mike good how are you deborah good what's new nothing what's new with you nothing i mean geez where are we headed with this that's where small talk needs a little help so besides digging deeper what else what else playing the conversation game so

Speaker 2 If you ask most people what's been going on, let me just throw that out there so your listeners can answer in their own heads or out loud. What's been going on?

Speaker 1 Nothing.

Speaker 2 Mike, we didn't even rehearse that. That's amazing because that's what most of us say, nothing or not much.
Mike, I don't know you, as I mentioned. I just can't believe it.

Speaker 2 I mean, I bet you a full day is busy and whatever else goes on in your life, you're busy, right? You're busy. You got stuff going on.
But we say nothing or not much for two reasons.

Speaker 2 Number one, because we're lazy.

Speaker 2 We don't take the time to think of something else. We don't work hard and invest in conversation.

Speaker 2 The other reason we say nothing or not much is because there is so much going on that we can't think of what it is. So here's my suggestion.
When you have the time. Now,

Speaker 2 today, before we started our interview, I believe you asked me how I was. I sensed that you didn't mean it.
that you wanted to get down to business. And so I went, I didn't play the conversation game.

Speaker 2 I didn't do what I would have done if you and I met for coffee. If you and I met for coffee and you said, how are you doing? I would have said, well, I'm great.

Speaker 2 You know, it's been literally below zero freezing in Denver the past week and the sun is out today and we're up to 45 degrees. That would be my answer.
to give you something to talk about.

Speaker 2 We could talk about the weather or the weather where you're at. Now, let me take it to another step.
Someone says, how are you?

Speaker 2 If you want to connect with them because you're waiting for a meeting to begin, give them a sentence. Well,

Speaker 2 I'm doing great. You know, this weekend, I'm really looking forward to a visit from my brother.
Well, where does your brother live? You know, why does he live a different place than you live?

Speaker 2 Like, how did you come to live here?

Speaker 2 If you don't give me something in a sentence, when my grown-up children, adult children, say to me, how's it going, mom? They probably don't mean it, Mike, okay? They probably don't mean it.

Speaker 2 But when they say, how's it going? I always play the conversation game. Oh, it's great.
I I did a podcast with this gentleman. He literally has over a million downloads.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, podcasts are so popular these days and everybody's got one, but this guy has one that's concrete, that's solid, that's successful. It was amazing.
And then I stop.

Speaker 2 If they're interested, they'll ask me about it. If they're not interested, they'll go, that's nice, mom.
You know, can you help me with fill in the blank? So playing the conversation is critical.

Speaker 2 When somebody asks, what's new? How's it going? How's the project? How have you been?

Speaker 1 Could you please give me an answer in a sentence so we now have something to talk about we're discussing small talk with one of the real experts on the topic it's Deborah Fine she's author of the book The Fine Art of Small Talk

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Speaker 1 So, Deborah, I sense that you have this arsenal of things that you could probably have a pretty good conversation with almost anybody. But I think people also inadvertently kill conversations.

Speaker 1 And how do they do that?

Speaker 1 What are the kind of the poison pills of conversation?

Speaker 2 Well, I'll give you that in a second because what I do want to respond to is that I would be successful conversing with anyone.

Speaker 2 Well, I'm pretty good at it, but I do want to say if somebody doesn't want to talk to me, there's nothing I can do about it.

Speaker 2 And people need to know that because most of us fear rejection so greatly that we don't start conversations with new people or acquaintances because they might reject us listen and oh and we're looking for the perfect icebreaker mike so everybody's looking for the perfect icebreaker and if we don't find it then we don't launch conversations let me tell you I have hundreds of icebreakers, but if you don't want to talk to me, Mike, because you're busy or you need to go or you just don't like, I'm too tall or whatever your reasons are for not wanting to talk to me, there's nothing I can do to change that.

Speaker 2 So everybody, get over finding the perfect way to start a conversation and

Speaker 2 know that not everybody wants to talk to me and it has nothing to do with me. Okay, so some conversation killers to avoid.
Well, here's one that happened.

Speaker 2 So I asked somebody, so, you know, bring me up to date. What's new in your life since the last time we talked? Oh, it's been really rough.

Speaker 2 You know, I got laid off from my job and, you know, the tech market is difficult now.

Speaker 2 And this is my response Mike yeah have you thought Joanne about your resume like is it one page or two pages and and what's the objective Joanne I I become an advisor Mike despite the fact that Joanne did not ask for advice she simply responded to a question she actually gave me information about what she was going through and I chose to give her advice how often have every parent or every girlfriend done what I'm about to illustrate?

Speaker 2 Hey, Mary, how's it going? Oh, good. I'm just so sick of my husband.
He does this. He won't do that.

Speaker 2 He's caught up in this and I'm just sick of that. I'm just so frustrated.
And here's my response to that, Mike.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 2 Mary, why don't you just leave him? I mean, it's

Speaker 2 refrain from you. I mean,

Speaker 2 be done with him. Cut the cord.

Speaker 2 You know what? Mary doesn't need that. Deborah.

Speaker 2 She's a citizen of the United States. She has the freedom to leave her husband when and if she chooses.
She doesn't need your unsolicited advice. This is what she needs.
Wow, that sounds rough.

Speaker 2 Gosh, is there anything I can do? Wow, I'm sorry you're going through this. Anything besides offering unsolicited advice to someone who has not requested it? Here's another one.

Speaker 2 Women have a tendency, and that's a stereotype I know, but I'm going to get to the men. Don't worry.

Speaker 2 We match each other. So,

Speaker 2 how was your vacation, Deborah, to Mexico? Oh, it was great. We did this.
It was so fun. The weather was perfect.
And this is her response to that. Oh, you went to Cancun?

Speaker 2 You went to an all-inclusive. So did we.
Oh, my gosh. You can't imagine.
Deborah, it was fabulous. They had this.
Don't match each other. This isn't a contest.

Speaker 2 This is when you should say, so, Deborah, I mean, have you been there before? Or, you know, what did you like about it the best? Would you recommend it? I mean, let's show an interest in me.

Speaker 2 Would you, before you match? I mean, it happens with our kids all the time. So, so, Deborah, what's new with the kids?

Speaker 2 Oh, well, my son lives in New York City, and you know, he has a living-in girlfriend now. Really? Oh, my son, you know, he's been married, he's been married a long time.
They're having kids now.

Speaker 2 Okay, folks, this is not a contest, this is not a game. Why don't you ask me who he's living with? Tell me a little bit about her.
Tell me about your son. Why does he live in New York?

Speaker 2 That would be a better response.

Speaker 1 When I listen to you talk,

Speaker 1 and I think when other people listen to you talk, you have

Speaker 1 a way about you, a lightness about you,

Speaker 1 a confidence. I don't know exactly what it is, but that you can maneuver your way through any conversation and have a pretty good time

Speaker 1 with it, it seems. Whereas other people struggle, that this is, I don't know if it's easy for you, but you seem to enjoy it versus people who

Speaker 1 it's hard to summon up the courage. So it's hard for them to see doing what you do from where they are.

Speaker 2 I say turn it into a task.

Speaker 2 That is what worked for me and I know it's worked for others because now I do have a history of 30 years of doing this, of helping people.

Speaker 2 So what I mean by turning into a task, next time you go to a baby shower, next time your spouse dragged you to an event, or

Speaker 2 you were excited about an invitation and ordinarily you wouldn't go. ultimately because you know you're an introvert and you don't like these kinds of things.
Let me make a suggestion.

Speaker 1 Go armed with a task.

Speaker 2 Here's the task. I'm going to talk to one new person.
Really?

Speaker 2 When I go to networking events to this day, Mike, for my business, I tell myself you'll talk to three new people or two new people. I get to pick the number.

Speaker 2 I make myself look for two new people to talk to. I use icebreakers to launch the conversation.
We can talk about that in a second if you'd like, Mike.

Speaker 2 You cannot get good at something unless you practice and invest time in it. I'm not asking you to invest an hour of cardio a day.

Speaker 2 I'm asking you to invest, tell yourself, three times this week, at back to school night, at a lacrosse game, at a party that I'm invited to.

Speaker 2 Before the meeting begins, I'm going to start a conversation with a person that I've never really connected with or I don't know much about. And it will come, Mike.
I promise you it will come.

Speaker 2 But it will not come because you expect lightning to strike. And I waited most of my life for lightning to strike, and it never happened.

Speaker 1 So you mentioned icebreakers, and I think that's where a lot of people struggle is like you want to start a conversation and you don't know what to say because it's a blank slate. So how do you begin?

Speaker 1 So let's talk about icebreakers.

Speaker 2 There is no such thing as a perfect icebreaker. If someone is willing to talk to you, almost anything will work.
That's not offensive. If someone's unwilling to talk to you, nothing's going to work.

Speaker 2 But the best way to launch into a conversation is to use what I call free information about the occasion or or location. If I'm at a baby shower, I would say, hey, how do you know

Speaker 2 either the mom, probably in my case because of my age, I would say, how do you know the mom of the future grandparent, grandmother, or how do you, how do you know the mom to be?

Speaker 2 What's your connection? What's your connection to the host? That's free information about the occasion, location.

Speaker 2 If I'm on a trip and on a train, I can say to somebody, are you from this area or you from somewhere else?

Speaker 2 Because the free information I have is they're either from this area or they're from somewhere else.

Speaker 2 Free information about occasion, location.

Speaker 2 How did you get involved with this charity? If I'm at a conference in Orlando, I'll say, have you been to Orlando before? That's the free information I have.

Speaker 1 It almost seems like, as long as it's not goofy or

Speaker 1 offensive, that I mean, people are usually at these things to talk to other people, that it doesn't,

Speaker 1 it's not like this big formal opening statement kind of thing. It just seems like conversations would be fairly easy to start because that's why we're all here.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like what brings you here is one of my favorite ways to start a conversation. So wherever we are, except if it's a party, then I say, how do you know the host? But what brings you here?

Speaker 2 What's your connection?

Speaker 2 If I see you talking to somebody, I pretend I don't know you or I approach you. How do you two know each other? And everybody, this is such a conversation color.

Speaker 2 Don't make, do not make assumptions about people. Oh, is this your wife? Oh, is that your husband? Or, I mean, is this your girlfriend? Please stop that.
Just stop.

Speaker 2 How do you two know each other is the way to find out what they're willing to tell you.

Speaker 1 Well, I think you've given people not only the tools,

Speaker 1 but also the confidence that, you know, this is just, it's just conversation and there's some pretty easy ways to get it going and keep it going. And I appreciate you sharing that.

Speaker 1 Deborah Fine has been my guest, and the name of her book is The Fine Art of Small Talk. And there's a link to that book in the show notes.
Thanks, Deborah. Thanks for coming on.

Speaker 2 Thank you very much. Thanks for having me today.
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Speaker 1 Have you ever wondered why you do the things you do, or why you use the words you use to say the things you say, or why you decide to do this instead of that?

Speaker 1 So much of this goes on below the radar, it seems. We just do what we do.
But it's actually pretty interesting when you look below the surface at why we actually do these things.

Speaker 1 That's what Helena Bashi studies. Helena is a psychologist and author of a book called Why We Do What We Do.

Speaker 1 Hi, Helena. Welcome to Something You Should Know.

Speaker 3 Hi, Mike. It's great to be here.

Speaker 1 So explain a little bit about your work and what you mean by why we do what we do.

Speaker 1 Because, I mean, I do many things and I'm pretty sure I know why I do them, but then there are also a lot of things I do that, you know, when I stop and think about it,

Speaker 1 I don't know why I did it.

Speaker 3 Well, we live a lot of our lives and we do a lot of things without really thinking about why we do what we do. We use language without being really intentional.

Speaker 3 We make decisions and we don't know what's underpinning them.

Speaker 3 We are frightened and we sometimes don't know why.

Speaker 3 And we tend to use habits and we don't really think about the habits we have and why we have resorted to those particular habits.

Speaker 3 So as soon as we start really thinking about why we're doing what we're doing and paying attention to our behavior, Even the small stuff, we become much more intentional about the decisions we take, the behaviors we use, the language we deploy around us.

Speaker 1 Well, let's talk about language because, well, the words we use are so important to how we get along with other people, how successful we are. Using the right words matters.
So

Speaker 1 how does that all work?

Speaker 3 Whenever we say anything, we need to remember that the brain is very visual.

Speaker 3 And and so the brain likes to try and convert words to pictures very quickly so whenever we use a word like elephant or dog or tropical beach the brain starts to see

Speaker 3 these things straight away not the word but the the visual association of the word

Speaker 3 but the brain doesn't see every single word and so we've got to if we want to try and different words of course, light up different parts of the brain.

Speaker 3 So when you're using very visual words, the back of the head, which is our visual cortex, that starts to become more active.

Speaker 3 If we're using words associated with movement, our motor cortex lights up more. And the same thing happens with words associated with taste or smell.

Speaker 3 And those areas light up. So the brain responds to different words very well.
The brain also responds to words that carry a high emotional component.

Speaker 3 And that starts to activate lots of different areas of the brain.

Speaker 3 So when we have words that are more sentimental or associated with the home or family, for example, then the brain starts to activate the areas of memory, which are to do with personal memory as well as the visual cortex.

Speaker 3 So the more we really think about language and the more descriptive or vivid our language becomes, the more we're activating different parts of the brain.

Speaker 1 You say something interesting, and that is that the brain doesn't see or doesn't recognize the word don't. And so that can cause a lot of problems.
And so explain how.

Speaker 3 So if I said to you, don't look behind you, Mike, you might immediately want to look behind you. Or don't take this personally, Mike.

Speaker 3 you might think oh no what's coming we sometimes use words in the opposite way to what's intended so we say to young children don't go over there don't play with that don't spill that drink don't touch that and then we wonder why they're being so disobedient because the brain will turn as much as it can into into something visual except when it can't But the key thing to remember is the brain is negatively wired.

Speaker 3 So the brain tends to hook to negatively salient information over positive.

Speaker 3 And when we hear things that any bad news or gossip about other people or receive negative feedback, it sticks, it becomes very cognitively sticky in the brain.

Speaker 3 And it takes quite a lot to dislodge this. So for example,

Speaker 3 if you're trying to give someone feedback in a meeting and you think, well, I'll start with a positive, I'll then give the negative, I'll end on a positive, and that's typically called the feedback sandwich.

Speaker 3 What we don't take into account is that the negatively loaded information will tend to stick much more strongly in the brain.

Speaker 3 So the positive information that you've given, even though it's twice as much, won't be held by the brain.

Speaker 3 And we tend to walk away from discussions like that and conversations like that, only holding on to the negative. So language is quite a complex thing.

Speaker 3 And we've got to really think about how we put conversations together, what we want to get out of the conversation, how we want someone to leave feeling at the end of a conversation.

Speaker 1 Well, that's interesting. So how do you maneuver what you say to leave people feeling a certain way?

Speaker 3 Well, there are lots of different tools to use for different outcomes.

Speaker 3 So if you want someone to feel more motivated, then you need to focus on the behavior that you want repeated, then you need to lock that that in with them so you focus on that but we think we're being motivational when we we try and give them praise and then we give them criticism at the same time brain can't handle that because it it holds only onto the negative So if we really want to motivate someone and make them feel good about something, the first thing we've got to do is be very specific about what's gone well so they know exactly what they did well and so that you get that repeated forevermore.

Speaker 3 If you want someone to improve their performance, the best thing you can do is focus on what you need them to do, but time it so that it's just before the next event.

Speaker 3 We tend to put everything all together immediately after an event. So that poor person can't do anything with any implied criticism because they have nothing to throw the advice at.

Speaker 3 And even though we mean it as a developmental piece of advice, that person's still holding it as a criticism.

Speaker 3 So I would say simplify the conversation, separate the feedback, keep people feeling motivated

Speaker 3 by focusing specifically on what went well, and wait until the next event before advising them or guiding them into how to do something better.

Speaker 1 So let's talk about creativity because that topic comes up a lot. And some people say, well, I'm not very creative.
And other people say they they are. And is creativity a God-given thing?

Speaker 1 Or is creativity, like language, something you learn?

Speaker 3 Yes, you know, we don't, we aren't born with language. We have to learn language.
But you could argue that we're all born very curious and to adapt to our surroundings. And then you could argue.

Speaker 3 So very interesting experiments have been carried out with children. And George Land was probably one of the most famous pioneers of this.

Speaker 3 And he wanted to see how creative, and he calls it divergent thinking, where the brain just goes off on a limb and starts exploring possibilities. And one idea leads to another, leads to another.

Speaker 3 And he decided he was working with NASA at the time, and I think this was around the 1960s. He was working with his colleague Beth Jarman, and he wanted to see

Speaker 3 how creative, how divergent would children be at the age of five. And he followed them for 10 years to see how education would affect their creativity, how

Speaker 3 teaching,

Speaker 3 how growing up would affect their creativity. And when he found that at the age of five, children are naturally very curious, very creative, very divergent in their thinking.

Speaker 3 And nothing really phases them. Do children just plunge, you know, headlong into something and give it a go.

Speaker 3 Now, by the age of 15 uh well he did it again at the age of 10 and he did it again at the age of 15 this ability to think divergently had reduced uh massively and you know you could point the fault at uh the education system or the way that we narrow down our expertise we think we become good at something so we stop trying other things but he found that by the age of 15 um this this you know i think 95 of children at the age of five were able to think divergently and creatively.

Speaker 3 But by the time they'd reached 15, it had gone down to about, I think it was around 12%,

Speaker 3 even probably even less, which is terrible if you think about it. And so we get these adults who've had creativity bashed out of them.
And then we tell them to think creatively at work.

Speaker 3 And of course, they're not used to it. We're taught in education to come up with a right answer.

Speaker 3 We're rewarded and praised for the right answer we're told off for daydreaming and letting our minds wander which is what the brain needs to do and so we lose this ability to uh to think creatively and then we put people in a room and we say right brainstorm and of course when people are forced to be creative it's the you get the opposite effect because the brain then gets anxious and it switches off and a happy relaxed daydreaming brain is of course a more creative one and we don't create the right environments to get the best out of people's creative potential.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about stress because I think everyone has had that feeling of being really stressed out and not being able to perform well, not being able to think clearly.

Speaker 1 And the more stressed you are, the less clearly you think, and it's got to be taking a toll. So, talk about what you see, the connection between stress and the brain.

Speaker 3 We have a very ancient system inside us.

Speaker 3 we're designed to switch on our stress system for uh to to deal with immediate stresses in our environment and then these the stress system is designed to switch off again this system is not designed to switch on and off and on and off or stay on continually

Speaker 3 And you see the modern world, you know, the world we're designed for is not the modern world. The world we're designed for is when a saber-toothed tiger came into

Speaker 3 our immediate vicinity and we had to make a quick decision. Do I turn and fight? Do I run like crazy?

Speaker 3 That's the world we're still designed for. But the world we're now in is switching on the system.

Speaker 3 It's being switched on with modern stressors, you know, a boss that wants to give us some feedback or 600 emails on our server or a friend who's rejected us.

Speaker 3 Even anything anticipated, even if we don't know what's coming, it could be good, but just not knowing is stressful.

Speaker 3 And even anything imaginary, the brain doesn't have to, it doesn't have to be real for the brain to respond as if the stressor were actually real.

Speaker 3 Now, the big problem about stress, of course, is that we sometimes wait to feel okay again. So anxiety rises and anxiety, as we know, is contagious.
So stressed people make other people stressed. And

Speaker 3 we wait to feel not stressed again. We wait for the feelings of anxiety to disappear.
But sometimes they don't.

Speaker 3 And so when we are feeling stressed, the best thing we can possibly do is to do something. Do something that is physically active.
So physical exercise is, of course, one of the best things we can do.

Speaker 3 It's probably one of the last things we feel like doing.

Speaker 3 Keeping our hands and feet busy and active. Sometimes we have to do something, anything, and then the feelings come later.

Speaker 1 And so, how does memory fit into this discussion? I mean, so much of who we are is our memories, and it's part of our brain. So, talk about memory.

Speaker 3 Memory is one of the most fascinating areas of the brain. And memory works, and memory is notoriously unreliable.

Speaker 3 We cannot really, and people who think they've got a good memory may well have a good memory, but it's never going to remember exactly in absolute detail what happened.

Speaker 3 Because every time we revisit a memory, we add something to it. You know, the environment that we're in might trigger a memory, but we're now adding to that memory with a new experience.

Speaker 3 You know, our memories, every time we replay them, something else is being added all the time. We embellish it

Speaker 3 and we add to it and we make more of it or we make less of it. So the best way to make sure that we remember absolutely is write things down in real time.

Speaker 3 So if we want to have a good record of something, make a note of it or record it in some way so that you can revisit.

Speaker 3 I guess this is why people keep journals and they then will remember the detail of what happens. The more emotional a memory is,

Speaker 3 the more it is highlighted in the brain as a memory. But even then, we don't always remember exactly.
And memory does decay over time. It's called decay.

Speaker 3 And so

Speaker 3 it decays quite a bit. And if we don't revisit memories, we don't replay them, then we do lose them.

Speaker 3 So it's, it's, you know, it's often good to go back and or play memory games to keep the memory part of the brain really active and stimulated because it's, you know, if we lost our memories, I mean, who would we be?

Speaker 3 You know, it's, it's horrible to think of a world where we couldn't attach to to the memories that we formed and we rely so heavily on our memories but the one thing to remember and this is daniel kahneman who wrote the book thinking fast and slow he talks about this and he says our experiencing self is very different to our remembering self so we have an experience and we will um we will have the experience in real time but the way we remember an experience is very different to the experience itself and an experience is often remembered in a way that's clouded by the last thing that happens or something that somebody said.

Speaker 3 So we have to remember that the experience that when we recall a memory of an experience, we're not recalling the actual experience, we're calling recalling the memory.

Speaker 3 And this is why we need people around us who remember different things to us and who see the world differently to us, because they take from an experience something different to what we take.

Speaker 3 And so it's often good to share memories around so so that we can sometimes see the world through another lens.

Speaker 1 One thing you talk about that I don't think a lot of people understand, I frankly don't really understand it very well, is this thing we hear now about the gut-brain connection.

Speaker 1 Can you talk about that?

Speaker 3 The relationship with the gut and the brain is becoming more, more and more important for us to know about. because the brain, the cranial nerves,

Speaker 3 that we have 12 cranial nerves and one of them links the brain and the gut. And messages go brain to gut, gut to brain.

Speaker 3 But a lot of our happy chemical serotonin, which promotes feelings of well-being and relaxation, and feeling that all's well with the world, that's called serotonin.

Speaker 3 A lot of that sits actually in our gut and not our brain. And most of the messages don't go brain to gut, they go gut to brain.

Speaker 3 People with

Speaker 3 mental disorders and diseases like depression or schizophrenia often have

Speaker 3 gut problems that are comorbid with the psychological problems. So, you know, the gut doesn't, it doesn't sit on its own.
We can't look at the brain in isolation.

Speaker 3 We have to look at the body and the brain as an entire system. And so, when people talk about mental health, I think we've got to look at the whole health.

Speaker 3 We can't just look at mental health because what we actually choose to eat will affect our mental health.

Speaker 3 So, we have to really think about what we're putting into our gut and make sure that the food we're putting in, they're not containing empty calories, they're actually going to do something of good for us and to maintain the body's balance because everything the brain and the body are designed to stay in balance.

Speaker 3 But when the world is out of balance, our systems go out of balance too.

Speaker 3 So, we have to find ways of consciously rebalancing our systems by being more conscious about the food we eat, trying to get better quality sleep and taking regular exercise.

Speaker 3 The brain loves the body to move. It's designed for the body to move.
And real brain development started as we started to learn to move.

Speaker 3 So we've, especially our memory, our memory really started to grow. Our memory structure started to grow when we learned to walk.
So the brain needs the body to move move and move often.

Speaker 3 And yes, the brain loves cardiovascular exercises, quick, quick bursts of activity where we're pumping blood around the body and we're creating more oxygenation in the brain.

Speaker 3 But we do need to get regular natural movement into our day-to-day activity as well.

Speaker 1 Well, there certainly is a whole lot going on when it comes to what we do, what we say, the words we use, how we feel. I appreciate you explaining all this.
Helena Bashi has been my guest.

Speaker 1 She is a psychologist and author of a book called Why We Do What We Do. And you'll find the link to that book in the show notes.
Thanks, Helena. Appreciate it.

Speaker 3 Thank you very much, Mike.

Speaker 1 Medicine and kitchen utensils don't mix. Dosing medicine is, it's serious stuff, and some of us are a bit too casual about it.

Speaker 1 Millions of Americans are hurt every year by medication mistakes that could have been avoided and two of the most common errors involve kitchen utensils.

Speaker 1 First of all, using a kitchen spoon to measure medications. People do it all the time and they wind up taking either too much or too little of their medicine.

Speaker 1 You see the people who make kitchen spoons are not required to make those spoons hold exactly a teaspoon of liquid, and they seldom do.

Speaker 1 It's better to stick with a dosing cup or maybe get a syringe that provides the right amount. Splitting medication with a knife is just a bad idea.

Speaker 1 Assuming you've got the okay from your doctor to split the pill in the first place, you really need to use a pill splitter because uneven cuts mean uneven doses. And that is something you should know.

Speaker 1 You know, the success of this podcast is due in large part to word-of-mouth marketing, people like you telling other people how much you like it and suggesting they give it a listen.

Speaker 1 And I hope you will continue that tradition and tell someone you know about something you should know. I'm Micah Ruthers.
Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

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