How to Quickly Change What Matters & What Happens Inside Your Imagination

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Speaker 2 Today, on something you should know, why brain freeze hurts so bad and how to stop it fast.

Speaker 2 Then, quick psychological strategies that can help you achieve a goal, be more likable, and get over a bad breakup.

Speaker 3 One of the simplest rituals to get over somebody if you've had a negative relationship is actually to write a little bit about them, put it into an envelope, and then very carefully, outside probably, set fire to that.

Speaker 3 That ritual allows people to get over the relationships quicker.

Speaker 2 Also, are you sure your car hasn't been recalled? Let's find out. And understanding your imagination.
It's important because you spend a lot of time there.

Speaker 4 If you sample people's experience from moment to moment, it turns out that we spend between a quarter and a half of our time daydreaming, mind-wandering, and that the most common mental content is not, in fact, awareness of our immediate surroundings, it's mental imagery.

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Speaker 2 Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

Speaker 2 With summertime comes ice cream and frozen margaritas and all the other things that can give you brain freeze. Hi and welcome to this episode of Something You Should Know.
What is brain freeze?

Speaker 2 Well, the best theory seems to be that it is a protective mechanism. The cold triggers extra blood flow to the brain, which increases pressure.
and that causes the headache.

Speaker 2 Specifically, it is the increase in blood flow to the brain's anterior cerebral artery.

Speaker 2 When scientists induced brain freeze in volunteers and then looked at it with ultrasound, they found that the pain disappeared when the artery constricted.

Speaker 2 And that is a process that you can expedite by drinking warm water.

Speaker 2 So if you're susceptible to brain freeze, as I am, have some warm water nearby the next time you indulge in your favorite frozen treat. And that is something you should know.

Speaker 2 Change is hard.

Speaker 2 I think most people think that when it comes to making personal or psychological changes in your life, it takes a lot of time and effort and maybe you need to get some professional help.

Speaker 2 Change is hard.

Speaker 2 Well, maybe, or perhaps that's a pretty broad brush to use to paint this. Maybe some things can be changed a lot easier and a lot quicker than other things.

Speaker 2 And here to discuss ways to make important changes in your life a lot quicker than you might think is Richard Wiseman.

Speaker 2 He's a professor of psychology in the UK and author of several books, one of which is called 59 Seconds. Think a little, change a lot.
Hi, Richard.

Speaker 2 Welcome back to something you should know.

Speaker 3 Pleasure to be here.

Speaker 2 So this idea that to make significant changes in your life, your personality, your psychology, that's going to take a lot of work and probably some counseling.

Speaker 2 That's something that your profession, the psychology profession, has perpetuated. And it's probably true for a lot of things.

Speaker 2 But I've always believed that people can make significant changes on their own if they're motivated. And so how did you also come to that conclusion?

Speaker 3 I mean, many, many years ago, I went out for a coffee with a friend of mine. And towards the end of that, she said, oh, you know, I'm not very happy.

Speaker 3 And you don't understand about psychology of happiness. Is there anything I could do to change my mind and cheer myself up? And I started to talk about happiness.

Speaker 3 And she said, well, can you get on with it? Because I'm quite a busy person. And I said, how long have you gone? And she looked at her watch and said, we're about a minute.

Speaker 3 And so I was thinking, well, my goodness, what can I say in a minute? And I thought, actually, there's a few things you can say about happiness that I think would work.

Speaker 3 And as I walked away from that coffee, I thought, actually, there's all sorts of findings and interesting results in psychology that can be learned really quickly, that change doesn't need to be challenging.

Speaker 3 And that was the basis for the 59 Seconds book.

Speaker 3 It was a pretty much a chance conversation in a coffee shop and so what were the things you told her uh to make herself happy in a minute my my memory of that conversation was that i spoke about the importance of gratitude i mean we are creatures that habituate really quickly to our surroundings.

Speaker 3 So if you like the smell of coffee, you go into a coffee shop, it smells great for all the 10 minutes, then you're used to it and you have to go back out again to go back in to get the smell.

Speaker 3 And it's the same with many areas of our lives, with our health, our friends, our relationships, and so on. We get used to what we have and they vanish.

Speaker 3 And the gratitude exercise is simply to note down before you go to sleep one thing in your life for which you have a sense of gratitude.

Speaker 3 And over time, that builds up into quite a body of work and it just cheers you up. It just makes you realize that actually things are not as bad as you thought.

Speaker 3 So my memory is that's what I spoke about in less than a minute, all those years ago.

Speaker 2 And what's something else that can improve happiness or some sense of satisfaction quickly?

Speaker 3 One is not to rely so much on finance. I mean, you need enough money to cover the basics, but after that, there's not a huge relationship between extra wealth and happiness.

Speaker 3 However, what is really important is to understand the role that purchases buy, to the extent to which it buys you happiness.

Speaker 3 So often when people feel a bit sad, they go out for some retail therapy and they buy whatever it is, latest tech, latest trainers, and so on.

Speaker 3 There's quite a lot of research shows that that has a very minimal effect on happiness.

Speaker 3 And in fact, can have a detrimental effect because it can make your friends and those people around you quite envious. And also, whatever it is you're buying tends to go out of date fairly quickly.

Speaker 3 If you invest the same amount of money in experiences, anything unusual, then you've got something to tell your friends about. You've got some social currency.
You've got something to talk about.

Speaker 3 And also something that remains rather sort of new and fresh in your memory, even for many years. And so the advice is to spend money on experiences in order to cheer yourself up rather than goods.

Speaker 2 Let's talk about motivation. I think it's a universal human experience that you get all excited and motivated to do something, to make a change, to lose weight, to exercise, whatever it is.

Speaker 2 And you start off great and then you run out of steam. You lose the momentum.
What do you suggest?

Speaker 3 I think when I was doing the book, we had just come off the back of the New Year's resolution study, which was a large study we did here over in the UK.

Speaker 3 We asked people, what are your New Year's resolutions? They said, oh, you know, I'm going to get fitter, lose weight, whatever it is.

Speaker 3 And then we tracked them for X number of years and we looked at the strategies that they were using.

Speaker 3 And the first thing we found out was that actually not many people achieve their resolutions, so only about 10% of people.

Speaker 3 Those that tend to fail were relying on willpower. They were thinking, you know, if I just try harder, then I'll be able to achieve my goals.
And actually, it's not a great strategy.

Speaker 3 The people who are far more successful tended to have a goal. They tended to be able to break that big goal into lots of sub-goals.

Speaker 3 So they'd say, I'm going to go to the gym more, but maybe I'm going to start off just going once a week. And it's going to be at this particular time.
It's going to be at 6 p.m. every Wednesday.

Speaker 3 And that way, you've got a kind of of trigger there. You know, at 6 p.m.
on a Wednesday, that's when you go to the gym. You don't let it slip.

Speaker 3 So that was very much in their mind, that idea of having a plan and it being related to very concrete events in their lives.

Speaker 3 Also, when they failed, and we all do fail, they didn't see that as a permanent setback. It was a temporary setback.
So thinking, okay, this week hasn't been so great, but I can start again next week.

Speaker 3 Those that gave up would often think, oh, my goodness, you know, I failed. That's the end of that.

Speaker 3 I'll have to wait for another year until i try again so understanding motivation absolutely key and it seems like procrastination is a very close relative to lack of motivation but for most people not for everyone but for most people if you procrastinate if you say to yourself okay i'm just going to spend five minutes doing whatever it is that I'm trying to put off.

Speaker 3 I can achieve that. When you input those five minutes, actually, it then becomes very easy to keep on going.

Speaker 3 It's the initial sort of thrust of motivation to get those five minutes in the bag that really count.

Speaker 3 And so we have the five minute rule, which is that, you know, if you're procrastinating about something, just give yourself five minutes on it and you're far more likely to finish the entire task.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, I've always felt that starting any project is the hardest part. And if you can just get over that hump in the beginning, then momentum takes over and it's a lot easier after that.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. I mean, because often with these things, you're looking at a mountain to climb and you say, oh my goodness, I couldn't possibly climb that.

Speaker 3 Well, as I say, one strategy is to break that down into much smaller segments. You think, well, I could get this far today and a little bit further tomorrow.
And as you say, to make a start.

Speaker 3 So these are not profound ideas. They're fairly simple ideas, but they're very, very practical.
And sometimes people say, oh, you know, it's just common sense.

Speaker 3 And my reply is, well, the problem with common sense is that it's not very common. You know, we're not taught them at school.
We're taught all sorts of things, but not really how our minds work.

Speaker 3 And so the 59-second idea was just to say, look, here's some shortcuts.

Speaker 3 Nowadays, they're called hacks, I think, some shortcuts, and hopefully, you know, make people's lives a little bit happier or more successful or whatever it is they want to achieve.

Speaker 2 Well, I'm convinced, too, that there's this sense people have that if the solution is really simple, then it's not a real solution, that it's got to be complicated for it to be a real deal.

Speaker 3 I think that's true. You know,

Speaker 3 when you look at some models of mind, like the Freudian model of mind, which is quite complicated to do with repressing ideas out of the conscious into the unconscious, and you have to deal with all the threats in your unconscious before you can move forward in life, and that's why you have to do psychoanalysis, it's going to last a long time, and so on.

Speaker 3 These, you know, these are complicated thoughts. And I was was the exact opposite of that.
I was just thinking, yeah, it's all fine, but what can we do right now?

Speaker 3 And I've always been a fan of that approach.

Speaker 3 My background is as a magician. And I came over to the Magic Castle in Hollywood when I was about 18, 19 years old and lost my props, lost all my apparatus on the way.

Speaker 3 stolen from me. So I got there and I was in tears because I thought, my goodness, I can't go and do this act.

Speaker 3 And I bumped into this woman in a coffee shop and she said, I'm not surprised you're upset. Let's focus on right now.
You know, not then,

Speaker 3 right now, what can you do right now to make this situation better? And I thought, actually, I can put together another act. I can do it quite quickly and get a deck of cards and so on.

Speaker 3 And I solved the problem. But at the time, that was very alien thinking, you know, because you were panicking and so on instead of that very concrete, what can I do right now?

Speaker 2 Well, one strategy that I've used, and maybe this is one of your strategies, you tell me, but it's a lot easier for me to stick to something and do something if I tell somebody else that I'm doing it.

Speaker 2 And then they're kind of expecting to hear the conclusion of that. And I don't want to let them down or let them know I failed.
So that helps keep me going.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. And so that was another one of the motivational strategies that the successful people were using.
And sometimes they're accountable to themselves.

Speaker 3 And what I mean by that is they would plot their progress on the refrigerator door or a journal or whatever it was. But they had to know they were making progress.

Speaker 3 So whether it's a friend or a journal, because otherwise, you know, we just kid ourselves. And not allowing ourselves to get away with that is one of the secrets of success.

Speaker 3 And again, you know, simple but effective stuff.

Speaker 3 And that's what was fun about the motivation work is that sometimes these strategies, another one that didn't work, for example, was thinking about how bad life would be if you didn't achieve the goal, because that sort of depresses you.

Speaker 3 Where if you think about how good life will be if you do achieve it,

Speaker 3 then

Speaker 3 that's a much better thing. So, yeah, all these sort of small changes can make a real difference.

Speaker 2 We're talking about some quick ways to make improvements in your life. My guest is Richard Wiseman.
He is a professor of psychology and author of the book 59 Seconds: Think a Little, Change a Lot.

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Speaker 2 So, Richard, let's talk about relationships. And I know relationships are complicated.
Everybody's is different. But I suspect there's some good advice that can apply to almost anyone here.

Speaker 3 So if you look at the talk, the way in which

Speaker 3 two people and a couple deal with one another and speak about one another,

Speaker 3 one of the really interesting aspects of that is there's a certain structure to a sentence where if you just criticize your partner to a friend, that's clearly not so good.

Speaker 3 If you criticize the partner and then say, but, and then now there's something very positive about them, that's associated with long-term success in terms of relationships.

Speaker 3 So if you kind of say, partner gets on my nerves because

Speaker 3 they always, they're so messy around the house, that's the end of that. But if you then change it to, but they're really fantastic.
And we go out on the party, they're the life and soul of the party.

Speaker 3 In other words, in your head, there are things that balance out that negativity. So let's imagine you're describing your partner, talking about your home life to a friend or a colleague.

Speaker 3 If you say, oh, the thing about my partner is, you know, they're just really messy. It drives me nuts.
And that's the end of that. Well, that's not clearly very positive.

Speaker 3 But if you add the butt phrase in there, and so you go, you know, my partner is very messy, drives me nuts, but they're the life and soul of the party.

Speaker 3 In other words, you add something positive in, that small change actually has a huge impact in terms of the longevity of the relationship.

Speaker 3 And if you add it in, if you consciously say, every time I say something negative, I'm going to weigh it out with something positive, you start to see the relationship differently because you're adding in that positive stuff.

Speaker 3 You're not just focusing on the negative.

Speaker 2 Well, what about the way you talk to your partner?

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 if you're just being critical all the time, not particularly surprising.

Speaker 3 There's some research that looks at the linguistics of that, that one negative comment has to be outweighed by around about five positive comments.

Speaker 3 And so again, listen to the way in which you're interacting. If you say something negative, you've got to follow up with four or five positive things.

Speaker 3 And so they're not evenly balanced in terms of how you talk to your partner. So all of these things can make an impact.
One of the favorite things actually,

Speaker 3 I should say, I'm quite skeptical about paranormal stuff,

Speaker 3 but I was looking at the role of ritual.

Speaker 3 And one of the simplest rituals to get over somebody, if you had a sort of negative relationship and you want to move on, is actually to write a little bit about them, put it into an envelope and then very carefully outside probably set fire to that and just burn it and let it go away.

Speaker 3 That ritual actually has quite an impact. It allows people to get over the relationships quicker.
So these are very simple things.

Speaker 3 You obviously need to do it safely, but very simple things that can help people.

Speaker 2 Stress is a big problem for people, or they at least they say so. I mean, people always complain how stressed they are.

Speaker 2 So help me out there.

Speaker 3 Well, so the Freudian, going back to Freud for a second, the Freudian model is about

Speaker 3 doing something which is

Speaker 3 really gets the stress out of your system. So you're angry at somebody, according to Freud, you repress that into the unconscious.
And the way to get that kind of psychic energy out is to behave in a

Speaker 3 kind of aggressive way, perhaps not to the person, but you might put on some boxing gloves and go and hit a bag or something like that or shout out or whatever it is that sort of approach isn't seen as particularly valid when you look at the experimental work most of the experimental work shows the opposite which is you your behavior determines how you feel now because we know the opposite is true that the way you feel determines how you behave but your behavior also determines how you feel So in the simplest example, you force a smile on your face and you feel happier.

Speaker 3 When it comes to dealing with stress actually instead of getting that kind of energy and anger out of your system acting in a calm way taking a deep breath laying down and relaxing yourself is the most effective way of reducing the stress so that's a kind of physiological approach and opposite often to uh to common sense so that idea of of behavior coming uh before uh emotion and and feelings is is uh a very powerful one also people get very anxious, not surprisingly, and they try and push those anxious thoughts out of their mind.

Speaker 3 And again, a lot of research shows when you try and do that, the anxious thought comes back into your mind as a rebound effect, which means that you just can't get it out of your mind.

Speaker 3 You keep on checking that it's not in your mind and it keeps on rebounding back.

Speaker 3 To get over that, you need to fill your mind with something else. Go and do something else.
And don't try not to think about what it is that's making you feel very anxious.

Speaker 3 And Dale Karnegi, you wrote a fantastic book, How to Stop Worrying and Start Living, talks about living in 24-hour silos, as it were.

Speaker 3 Instead of worrying too much about the future, just think, all right, can I get to this point tomorrow?

Speaker 3 And if you can, just focus on that rather than then sort of letting the wild horses of stress and anxiety loose or worrying about a week or a month and so on.

Speaker 2 So a very common problem that relationships have, that couples have, is as the relationship,

Speaker 2 shall we say, matures,

Speaker 2 interest wanes, people move apart. So there's got to be some excellent, I bet, suggestions for that.

Speaker 3 And one of them is this idea of getting, literally sticking couples together and getting them to do things together.

Speaker 3 Often when couples are not getting on so well or or whatever, they tend to go apart and do their own thing.

Speaker 3 But making people face obstacles and solve puzzles and so on together actually brings them together. And we looked at a lot of the work on speed dating.

Speaker 3 And so, something as simple as mirroring the person opposite you, mirroring their body language and facial expressions makes them more attracted to you.

Speaker 3 And who knew, and this actually is a Carnegie idea, of talking about them, not talking about yourself?

Speaker 3 And so, one of the techniques that I always advocate is just not using the I word quite so much in conversation and just switching it to you, talking about the other person and not faking it.

Speaker 3 Finding a genuine reason why you're sincerely interested in that other person. There's something to be learned from everyone.

Speaker 3 That interest in other people is a very attractive quality and so a very effective way of getting people to be attracted to you.

Speaker 2 Isn't it interesting how we think that you know, the way to

Speaker 2 the way to attraction is to talk about how great you are when in fact

Speaker 2 people don't really care so much.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. It's another one where our common sense and our intuitions are simply wrong.
And so, you know, we all have this fantastic brain between our ears, but say we're not born with a manual.

Speaker 3 We don't really understand how it works. And

Speaker 3 intuitively, you think, well, I need to go on that date and really sell myself, say how great I am.

Speaker 3 Actually, most people prefer to be with someone who's genuinely interested in them and wants to talk about them.

Speaker 2 In the self-help world, you often hear about the power of visualization, that, you know, if you can imagine it, you can make it happen. What about that?

Speaker 3 There are... many people that will tell you and will think

Speaker 3 that in order to achieve whatever it is you want in life, you know, your perfect career or perfect partner you should visualize that end point imagine yourself with them or in that that job and there's quite a lot of evidence from psychology that's really not a great thing to do because your brain tends to think well I've already achieved it so I can kind of give up on that Visualization is a very powerful tool but what you need to do is visualize what it takes the steps it takes to get to that end point not the end point so let's imagine you're a student and you want to get a great grade.

Speaker 3 You don't imagine yourself opening a envelope and taking out a certificate that's got a grade on it.

Speaker 3 You imagine yourself going to the library, revising, asking questions in class, all the things that are related to getting that good grade. So that's, do you imagine process and not end point?

Speaker 3 And there's quite a lot of work, as I say, that supports that. And we should all know that, but we don't.
It's fun to imagine endpoint. It makes you feel better.

Speaker 3 It just doesn't help you quite so much.

Speaker 2 Well, great. I certainly like the idea of rapid change when that's possible, and I appreciate you sharing your insight.

Speaker 2 I've been talking to Richard Wiseman, a professor of psychology in the UK, author of several books, one of which is called 59 Seconds.

Speaker 2 Think a little, change a lot, which covers what we've been talking about and much more. And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes.
Thanks, Richard.

Speaker 3 Pleasure. Pleasure speaking to you.

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Speaker 2 You have an imagination, probably a really good imagination. And you spend a lot of time in your imaginary world.
We all do, whether we realize it or not.

Speaker 2 We reminisce, we anticipate, we plan, we daydream, we read. All of this requires an imagination.

Speaker 2 Here to help you understand how your imagination works and the latest discoveries about the human imagination is Adam Zeman.

Speaker 2 He is an honorary fellow at the Center for Clinical Brain Sciences at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, and he's author of the book The Shape of Things Unseen, a new science of imagination.

Speaker 2 Hi, Adam. Welcome to something you should know.

Speaker 4 Thank you very much for having me, Mike.

Speaker 2 So I guess I'm curious and hadn't really thought about it much before, but what is imagination? Is it a thing or is it a word to describe a process or what in the world is it?

Speaker 4 Yeah, well, I think it's a set of capacities. The term, of course, isn't a term of science.
It means quite a number of things.

Speaker 4 The key sense that I had in mind was the sense in which imagination is the capacity that allows us to detach ourselves from the here and now, recollect the past, anticipate the future.

Speaker 4 It can also be used to refer to our capacity to form images of various kinds.

Speaker 4 So the image that we form on the retina when we're looking at the world, or the image that we form of an apple when we imagine one in its absence.

Speaker 4 If anything sets us apart from the rest of creation, I think it's that we live so much of our lives in our heads.

Speaker 2 Well, that's interesting. Explain a little more what you mean by we spend so much time in our heads.

Speaker 4 If you sample people's experience from moment to moment, it turns out that we spend between a quarter and a half of our time daydreaming, mind-wandering, and that the most common mental content is not, in fact, awareness of our immediate surroundings, it's mental imagery.

Speaker 4 So we are much of the time, I think, detached from the here and now.

Speaker 2 Oh, I buy that.

Speaker 2 I am detached from the here and now quite often, but I just guess I don't think of that as using my I mean, I know you're using your imagination to think of somewhere else or something else, but I've always thought of imagination as something more active than that, more problem-solving, more idea-generating than just not being here and now.

Speaker 4 If I ask you to imagine an apple, I guess you don't have an apple in front of you, but you could form an image of an apple in your mind's eye. I think that's a perfectly

Speaker 4 respectable use of the verb. If you read a novel, we say that you enter an imaginative world.
So the novelist evokes a sensory world which

Speaker 4 you enter on the basis of his text. So, and again, I think that's a respectable use of the term.
But yes, you're quite right.

Speaker 4 Of course, we speak of people as being imaginative when they are skilled at coming up with creative solutions to problems of one kind or another.

Speaker 4 And it's interesting that we use the same word to refer to that kind of creativity as we do to the other sense of imagination, other senses of imagination, which I've just described.

Speaker 4 I think we do so partly because

Speaker 4 imagery

Speaker 4 plays an important role in the creative process often, but not always. So it did, for example, for Einstein.

Speaker 4 He said that he thought barely at all in words, and images were crucial to him in his thinking.

Speaker 4 But one of the interesting observations that I and my colleagues have made over recent years is that there's a group of people, perhaps about 4% of the population, who seem to have no sensory imagery, certainly no mind's eye, but who can nevertheless be very creative and productive.

Speaker 4 So imagination doesn't depend on... the ability to form sensory images of things in their absence, but for many people, those images are an important part of the creative process.

Speaker 2 So you've expanded my definition in my head of imagination, because when you use the example of reading a book, see, I've always thought of the guy who wrote the book as having quite an imagination.

Speaker 2 But the person reading the book is

Speaker 2 a very passive activity that doesn't really require imagination because the words are telling you what to think.

Speaker 4 Well, that's interesting. Interesting that you say that.
I would say actually that the reader or the beholder in the case of a work of art has a very active part to play.

Speaker 4 There's a kind of collaboration between creator and appreciator. And

Speaker 4 one

Speaker 4 way of illustrating that is that people with aphantasia, these are people who lack sensory imagery, never have that experience which many of us report when going to see the film of a book we've read, that the character in the film doesn't look anything like we'd imagined him.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 we contribute imaginatively in the process of reading.

Speaker 4 And it's only when you lack sensory imagery, as do people with aphantasia, that that active contribution

Speaker 4 becomes clear.

Speaker 2 So if they don't imagine, because I know exactly what you mean about where you think you know based on something else what somebody might look like and then you meet them, like you talk to them on the phone and you develop this image in your head of what they're going to look like.

Speaker 2 And then you meet them and they don't look anything like that. So those people that you just talked about, that 4% of the population, what is it they do instead?

Speaker 4 One of the curious things about hematasia is that it's not cognitively, intellectually disabling. So they can think,

Speaker 4 but they think using ideas. They think in concepts or in words or using notation of one kind or another.
They don't clothe their thoughts in the sensory images.

Speaker 2 And does that have other implications for them other than they just don't do that? But does that affect their lives in other ways?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it does. It seems to.
So one interesting observation is that it seems to nudge people towards working in STEM professions.

Speaker 4 So if you're aphantasic, you're a little bit more likely to be working in the sciences or in IT or in maths than if you are hyperphantasic, and if you have very vivid imagery, which nudges people towards traditionally creative professions.

Speaker 4 The most consistent association, psychological association with aphantasia seems to be having a rather thin autobiographical memory, rather thin memory of your personal past.

Speaker 4 So people with aphantasia typically say they can, they know all about their own lives,

Speaker 4 but the knowledge is somewhat factual. Whereas people with sensory imagery are able to re-experience episodes from the past.
So I think this makes intuitive sense, doesn't it?

Speaker 4 If you remember last year's holiday, an important part of the that process of recollection is going to be sensory.

Speaker 4 You're likely to see the beach that you lay on or the mountain that you climbed, and you may get some other sensory imagery. You might remember some sounds or the feel of the place.

Speaker 4 And if you're lacking the capacity to evoke experience in that way, it makes sense that memory for the past should seem a little thinner and more factual in other ways.

Speaker 4 So I think that's the strongest association. But

Speaker 4 as you were hinting, it's really interesting that people with aphantasia generally get along perfectly fine and can be intellectually very productive.

Speaker 2 Is imagination measurable? because we hear something like well bob here has quite an imagination implying that his is better or bigger than mine but it can you measure it

Speaker 4 yeah so there are various approaches to to doing so so in the case of of sensory imagery so

Speaker 4 calling up an image to your mind's eye there are measures like the vividness of visual imagery questionnaire which invites you to visualize 16 scenarios and then to rate like like the sun rising into a hazy sky, and then to rate the vividness of your image from

Speaker 4 as vivid as real seeing, which would give you a score of five over five, to no image at all, just thinking about it, which gives you a score of one over five.

Speaker 4 And there are other comparable scales for the other senses. So, of course, it's a subjective, introspective rating scale, but

Speaker 4 it seems to be useful. It seems to capture real differences between people.
So, that's imagination in the sense of sensory imagery. Imagination in the sense of creativity is a little trickier.

Speaker 4 Just asking people whether they are creative and whether they can list any creative achievements is one quite simple and helpful way to start. But there are other approaches

Speaker 4 like the alternate uses task, which invites you to think of as many uses as you can think of in two or three minutes for, for example, a brick.

Speaker 4 And some people will will produce a profuse set of ideas with displaying great flexibility in the imaginative thinking, whereas others will come up with just a few suggestions.

Speaker 4 So there are ways of measuring imagination. As I've explained, imagination is highly, it's a highly complex concept and capacity, so one's going to need a number of different approaches.

Speaker 2 Can you develop your imagination? Can you become more creative? Can you visualize things better?

Speaker 2 Or

Speaker 2 you got what you got.

Speaker 4 So I'm sure that it can be trained in its various senses. We've looked at this specifically in the context of aphantasia.
So

Speaker 4 people

Speaker 4 who have never been able to visualize

Speaker 4 often try to gain the capacity, to cultivate the capacity, and they find it very hard. So I suspect in that particular case, there probably is some biological obstacle, some...

Speaker 4 variation in the way the brain is put together which makes it very difficult. I think that if you have imagery however it is possible to build on it.
And I think in the sense that

Speaker 4 we were discussing earlier, the sense of imagination as creativity, I'm sure it is possible to train that.

Speaker 4 I spoke to quite a number of creative people and it became clear to me that over the course of their lifetimes

Speaker 4 they had precisely trained their creative brains so that their creativity became really quite reliable and relatively effortless.

Speaker 4 I think that was true of people working

Speaker 4 both in the sciences and the arts. So yeah, I think we should indeed cultivate our imagination and our creativity.

Speaker 2 I want to go back to what you said about like when you read a book, you're using your imagination to picture in your mind what's going on, some novel of some, you know, of people interacting.

Speaker 2 And what I wonder is, what happens when you watch a movie, you know, the same title, but you're watching the movie instead of reading the book,

Speaker 2 that seems to have less of your imagination involved because you don't have to make up what the people look like. You can see what they look like, you can see where they are.

Speaker 2 So it seems like you're less engaged, or I mean, what's the difference?

Speaker 4 I think you're right. I think

Speaker 4 it evokes imagination somewhat less. I mean, of course, it does evoke imagination just as our everyday life evokes it.
So, you know, if

Speaker 4 you're alone in

Speaker 4 a house on a hill and you hear a creaking of the floorboards, whether you're

Speaker 4 actually in that house or whether you're watching it in a movie, there's going to be a very intense imaginative anticipation of what may come next. But I think you're right.

Speaker 4 I guess movies, they entertain us because

Speaker 4 they offer great visual delight. When we are reading a novel,

Speaker 4 we have to create the visual scene using our own materials. I used very much to enjoy radio plays, which are a kind of medium which is, I think, particularly engaging of the imagination.

Speaker 4 I have a small anecdote on the novel front, which again speaks to the imaginative contribution that we have to make when we're reading.

Speaker 4 A while ago, I kept trying to work out how and when I'd been to a particular place.

Speaker 4 And it was quite some while before I realised that it was actually a place I'd read a description of in a novel rather than a place I'd visited.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I was going to ask you if deja vu enters into your world of studying imagination.

Speaker 4 Well, curiously, I've had an interest in deja vu, though not particularly through my interest in the imagination.

Speaker 4 It's a phenomenon that neurologists come across quite regularly, not least because it can be an aura of an epileptic seizure.

Speaker 4 So if you have

Speaker 4 a disturbance in your temporal lobe, excitation of the temporal lobe, one of the symptoms that can result

Speaker 4 is a sense of deja vu. So it's something that

Speaker 4 we're familiar with neurologically and it can also occur in psychiatric contexts as well as neurological ones. And it seems to be linked to a particular

Speaker 4 brain region which has to do with assigning familiarity. So

Speaker 4 One of the things that the brain has to do is to decide whether a particular person or place is familiar. And there seems to be a region which is particularly involved in this.

Speaker 4 And one can see that if that region were excited

Speaker 4 inappropriately, you might get

Speaker 4 a strong sense of familiarity in a situation which isn't at all familiar.

Speaker 4 The peculiar

Speaker 4 nature of deja vu is that you both have this strong sense of familiarity and also a sense, I think, that there's something wrong about it, that it's erroneous. Those two things come simultaneously.

Speaker 4 That's what makes deja vu so eerie.

Speaker 2 Is there any sense that other creatures besides humans have the ability to, as you say, live in their head, that they imagine something rather than just deal with what's in front of them, the here and now?

Speaker 4 It's quite likely that other animals can do something like that.

Speaker 4 So the dog who's lying in his basket and twitching his legs after a walk in the park might well be having a dream of running to catch that bull.

Speaker 4 what we can do and i think no other creature on animal on earth can do is to share the contents of our imagination and i think that we've evolved to share what we imagine that's one way of thinking about some crucial steps in human evolution and you might say that that's kind of obvious because we can talk to one another so obviously we can we can share what we imagine but i think our ability to mind share goes deeper than language um it's it's on show really very early um in the development of of human infants.

Speaker 4 So there are those extraordinary dialogues between musical dialogues between mothers and their babies which start at about a month of age,

Speaker 4 which I don't think occur in any other primate and which set up a kind of mutual understanding, which I think is then the, which is really the genesis of the mind sharing which ultimately gives rise to language.

Speaker 4 I think one can see the story of the last three million or so years of evolution as the story of the growth of our ability to share what we imagine. And that really underlies human culture.

Speaker 4 That's the foundation of human culture.

Speaker 2 Well, that kind of begs the question.

Speaker 2 I wonder if, and maybe there's no way to really know, if other creatures who can't communicate it also have imaginations, but they are unable to share it with anything, anybody.

Speaker 4 Yeah. So as I say, I think there's plenty of evidence that

Speaker 4 animals dream in the sense that they have REM sleep so their brains behave in just the ways that ours our brains behave when we're dreaming and it's very likely I'd have thought that they have some sensory experience at those times.

Speaker 4 There's a fascinating phenomenon called replay which was discovered in animals but which we know also occurs in human brains. So this is the phenomenon by which if you encounter a new

Speaker 4 place, for example, or a new person

Speaker 4 your brain will build a representation of that place, and then during periods of rest over the next few hours and during that night's sleep, your brain replays the route through

Speaker 4 the new place that you've explored.

Speaker 4 So, again, a kind of imaginative process. Probably most of that is unconscious, but one can see how it's closely related to imagination.

Speaker 4 And we know that that happens in animal brains as well as human ones. So, I think that the basics of imagination are going to be present in animal brains.

Speaker 4 As I say, I think what's special about us is that we not only imagine, but

Speaker 4 we can share what we imagine. And it's that process of sharing that allows us to

Speaker 4 build a common culture.

Speaker 2 What is the relationship between imagination and dreaming?

Speaker 2 I mean, obviously your brain is working to create this dream, but

Speaker 2 what is that?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 So dreams are extraordinary creations, aren't they?

Speaker 4 It's just extraordinary that every night we, three or four times, will enter a state in which we essentially tell ourselves elaborate and rather bizarre stories.

Speaker 4 And the dreaming seems to be driven by processes quite deep in the brain.

Speaker 4 So probably the processes which give rise to the imaginative experience of dreaming are very unlike the processes that allow you to call to mind an apple, if I ask you to do that in a psychology lab.

Speaker 4 So that process, imagining the apple in its absence, is a kind of top-down process.

Speaker 4 You're asked to do it and you make a conscious decision to do so and your brain somehow then drives the visual system in such a way that you have a visual experience of an apple.

Speaker 4 Dreaming is very different. It's much more of a bottom-up process

Speaker 4 with structures deep down in the brain generating the extraordinary bizarre experience of dreaming.

Speaker 2 Well, I know I have a lot of bizarre dreams that don't seem to make much sense. And I also

Speaker 2 sometimes have dreams that are very upsetting. You know, they're disturbing, they're very vivid and

Speaker 2 I wake up disturbed by them.

Speaker 2 But yeah, for the most part, I would say, you know, my dreams,

Speaker 2 they're stories in my head that don't make a lot of sense.

Speaker 4 Aaron Powell, yeah, that's fairly typical. The parts of the brain that allow us to be logical are deactivated during REM sleep.
So where

Speaker 4 we

Speaker 4 sort of tolerate all sorts of inconsistencies that would completely baffle us during wakefulness and which we would be looking for an explanation of.

Speaker 4 But clearly, dreaming provides a kind of wonderful illustration of the creativity of the brain. And I think there is a sense in which wakeful creativity draws on dreaming.

Speaker 4 I mean, I think quite a nice definition of creativity is that it involves dreaming lucidly. about things that matter to us.
And actually,

Speaker 4 there's evidence from work on

Speaker 4 looking at what's happening in the brain when people are creating things that suggests that's exactly what's happening.

Speaker 4 You have a kind of unusual collaboration between parts of the brain that are involved in daydreaming, parts of the brain that are involved in cognitive control, and parts of the brain that are involved in emotion.

Speaker 4 They engage in a kind of dance

Speaker 4 during the creative process, which we don't see during other kinds of wakeful experience.

Speaker 2 Well, I now have a different or maybe a more broadened view of what the imagination is and what it does. I've been talking with Adam Zeman.

Speaker 2 He is author of the book The Shape of Things Unseen, a new science of imagination. There's a link to his book in the show notes.
Adam, thanks. Thanks for being here and explaining all this.

Speaker 4 Okay, Mike, thanks very much.

Speaker 2 If you've had an automobile for any length of time, there's a pretty good chance you've received a recall notice somewhere along the way.

Speaker 2 There are a lot of things in cars that can go wrong, and when they find them, auto manufacturers will sometimes issue a recall. But that doesn't mean people always take them in to get fixed.

Speaker 2 In the year 2022, only 64%

Speaker 2 of people completed the repairs on their recalled cars. That means a lot of people did not.

Speaker 2 Ignoring a recall can have serious consequences. Years ago, a leading maker of airbags recalled millions of cars that had airbags in them.

Speaker 2 Yet, in 77% of the cases in which those airbags killed or injured drivers, those cars had already been recalled but never repaired.

Speaker 2 The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has a website where you can put in your car's VIN number and it will tell you if your car has ever been recalled.

Speaker 2 That website is safercar.gov and I'll put that in the show notes as well and that is something you should know hey thank you for listening today and and it would be great if you enjoyed this program to share it with people you know just use the share function on the player you're using your friends can hear it and it would help us and i bet your friends thank you for it i'm mike carruthers thanks for listening today to something you should know

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