How to Say No Without Guilt & The Secrets to Satisfaction - SYSK Choice

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Speaker 1 Because when you say yes to one thing, you are saying no to something else.

Speaker 1 So, what my research focuses on is how to develop the super skill of saying no in a way that is persuasive and yet maintains the relationship with the other person.

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Speaker 2 Something you should know. Fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life today.

Speaker 2 Something you should know. With Mike Carruthers.

Speaker 2 Hi, welcome.

Speaker 2 It's been a busy week around here. My eldest son, Owen, graduated high school.
My younger son, Angelo, off to camp for the week, and my sister, Sally, visiting from out of town.

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Find a hammock.

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Speaker 2 I'll bet there have been plenty of times in your life when you said yes to someone and wish you'd said no.

Speaker 2 But after all, you want to be helpful. You don't want to disappoint people.
It can be hard to say no. Still, I suspect most of us wish we were better at saying no.

Speaker 2 And there's a lot of evidence that being able to say no can result in some real benefits to you.

Speaker 2 So here to help you get better at saying no when you really want to say no is award-winning professor and researcher Vanessa Patrick.

Speaker 2 She's been studying the science of saying no, and she's about to reveal some surprising secrets about the power of no.

Speaker 2 Vanessa is author of the book, The Power of Saying No, the new science of how to say no that puts you in charge of your life. Hi, Vanessa.
Welcome to Something You Should Know.

Speaker 1 Thank you, Mike. I'm delighted to be here.

Speaker 2 So as simple a question as this sounds, what is it about no that is such a big deal?

Speaker 2 If somebody asks you to do something and you don't want to do it or you can't do it or it would be a real hassle to do it, why don't we just say no and get on with it?

Speaker 1 So saying no is really hard for a lot of people. It is fraught with anxiety and conflict and people are really stressed about saying no to asks that come their way.

Speaker 1 And I think it boils down to the fact that

Speaker 1 saying no is a socially dispreferred response. And what I mean by that is that when people ask you something or invite you to go somewhere or request something of you, they essentially expect a yes.

Speaker 1 And saying no goes against that expectation. And we as human beings struggle with dealing with going against people's expectations.
We want to conform, we want to be nice.

Speaker 1 And so, in many ways, saying no

Speaker 1 is tough because we have to to go against what the other person expects from us.

Speaker 2 It isn't just the thing we're saying no to, though.

Speaker 2 Right? We're afraid of the repercussions.

Speaker 1 In my research, I found that there are two key reasons why people struggle with saying no. One is that they are deeply concerned about the...

Speaker 1 the fact that their relationship with the other person will suffer as a result. And the second is they want to be seen in a positive light.
So they want their reputation to be intact.

Speaker 1 And saying no in a way that is not effective can, in fact, damage your reputation and hurt your relationship with the other person.

Speaker 1 So, what my research focuses on is how to develop the super skill of saying no in a way that is persuasive and yet maintains the relationship with the other person.

Speaker 2 So, let's talk about those two things that you just mentioned because people fear that their relationship will suffer and they fear their

Speaker 2 reputation might suffer, typically does it

Speaker 2 in most cases or typically does it not?

Speaker 2 Are we fearing something that almost never happens or are we fearing something that actually does happen?

Speaker 1 I always like to ask people to think about the last time they asked someone for something. And when you get a no from somebody, chances are you just go to the next person on your list.

Speaker 1 You don't really think about it that much. So, you know, sometimes we exaggerate the extent to which this is damaging to your relationship and reputation.

Speaker 1 But given that these are real concerns, my research on empowered refusal accommodates those concerns by giving people the tools and the skills to navigate these relational concerns of reputational concerns.

Speaker 2 So I suspect those skills are very important because how you present your no is going to have an impact either for good or for worse. So let's talk about those skills.

Speaker 1 Yes, so saying no, it's important to say no in a way that

Speaker 1 communicates a strong and empowered stance regarding why you are saying no.

Speaker 1 And so it's about looking inwards and looking at your identity and using words that communicate your empowered refusal response. So for example, when we say words like, I don't, I never, I always,

Speaker 1 they are strong and empowered words and they reflect conviction and determination. When we use words like that, we come across as much more persuasive and we don't get pushback from the asker.

Speaker 1 Instead, we get compliance. So let's imagine that we want to say no to a phone call that someone wants to have with us at 7.30 p.m.

Speaker 1 If we respond saying, I'm really sorry, I can't talk at 7.30 p.m., we sound disempowered and somewhat wishy-washy. On the other hand,

Speaker 1 if you use the words, I don't take calls between 6 and 9 p.m. because that's family time, people respond to that refusal in a very different manner.

Speaker 2 Often I think when people say no,

Speaker 2 and feel this obligation to say yes, but even when they finally do say no, they feel so guilty for saying no that

Speaker 2 they mash it all up with apologies and things that sound, as you say, very weak and wishy-washy rather than here's my stance and, you know, be proud of it.

Speaker 1 Yes. And, you know, for your audience who's really interested in surprising and interesting insights, this simple switch in terms from saying, I can't to I don't can make a world of difference.

Speaker 2 What about, though, when you don't have a standing rule that you don't take calls between this time and this time? You just don't want to talk to that person then. It's just a one-time, I'm too tired.

Speaker 2 I just, it's that person. I just, it isn't my standing rule.
It's just, I don't want to talk to them.

Speaker 1 Exactly. And that boils down to one of the competencies, which is self-awareness.

Speaker 1 Knowing what your preferences are, what your priorities are, where your beliefs lie, where your values lie, is super important for framing that refusal response.

Speaker 1 And if it is valid to you, then it is a valid reason not to oblige the other person. After all, a request is just a request.
It is not a requirement.

Speaker 1 So if you really don't feel like talking to that person, regardless of the time, you don't have to.

Speaker 2 You had said earlier that one of the reasons people don't say no is because they're afraid their reputation will suffer as a result of that.

Speaker 2 But when I think about the people who say no, I respect them.

Speaker 2 I mean, it seems in some ways I even admire that they have these boundaries so that in fact saying no may actually enhance your reputation, not hurt it.

Speaker 1 You're so right. You're absolutely right.

Speaker 1 When you say no to the things that don't matter and say yes to the things that do, you do come across as much more in control, in the driver's seat of your own life.

Speaker 1 And we do admire those sort of people who seem to know what they want and say no to everything else.

Speaker 2 So if you're one of those people who has trouble saying no and has always had trouble saying no,

Speaker 2 how do you even start to become one of those people who is comfortable with it? How do you develop the skills? And what are the skills?

Speaker 1 I have identified three competencies that help you master the art of empowered refusal. And ART is the acronym that I've developed, A-R-T,

Speaker 1 awareness,

Speaker 1 rules, not decisions, and totality of self. And so these three competencies are the ingredients, if you will, to say a more effective no.
So the first competency is awareness.

Speaker 1 This deepened self-awareness helps us sift between the good for me activities from the not good for me activities and help us decide more effectively what to say yes to and what to say no to and once we have this deepened self-awareness we can then create simple rules what i call personal policies that help guide our actions and decisions so that when we are faced with an ask that we want to say no to we are more equipped with where we stand in these matters.

Speaker 1 When we lean on these personal policies that we have established to say no, we give voice to our values. And we come across then with much greater conviction and much more determination.

Speaker 2 When you say develop self-awareness,

Speaker 2 explain what you mean. How do you do that?

Speaker 1 So understanding, for example, how you want to spend your time, what you like and what you don't like. Some people are not aware aware where they stand on certain matters.

Speaker 1 Knowing where you stand helps you recognize a situation and understand the trade-offs. Because when you say yes to one thing, you are saying no to something else.

Speaker 1 And so you should be very clear that what you are saying yes to matters and is not coming in the way of

Speaker 1 you living your best possible life.

Speaker 2 We're talking about how to say no and not feel so bad for doing it. My guest is Professor Vanessa Patrick.
She's author of the book, The Power of Saying No.

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Speaker 2 So, Vanessa, you said that people need to be self-aware, but I think people believe they are self-aware, that they know where they stand on issues. Don't you?

Speaker 1 So, many, many times you do have a sense of where you stand, but very often in my research, I find people greatly conflicted because they are worried about how

Speaker 1 it would look and how other people would view that. Whereas my research suggests that we really need to focus on ourselves and our priorities.

Speaker 1 I also provide a framework to help people decipher the ask. So let's say you do not have a strong stance on a matter and you don't know whether you should say yes or no.

Speaker 1 It's a cost-benefit framework that helps you decide how to decipher the ask and shape your decision to say yes or your decision to say no.

Speaker 2 Can you give me an example?

Speaker 3 Sure.

Speaker 1 The one type of ask is something that's pretty straightforward and easy and I call them the past the salt asks.

Speaker 1 In those type of asks, they are pretty easy for you to do so it's not very high high cost for you, but it's hugely beneficial for the other person. So the other person, it could be a game changer.

Speaker 1 So it's like passing the salt. The salt shaker is sitting in front of you.
Someone at the table says, could you pass the salt? And you just pass the salt to them. For you, it was super easy.

Speaker 1 For the other person, you know, you transform their meal to make it better.

Speaker 1 So an example of pass the salt asks as a professor myself, I very often get asked to write recommendation letters.

Speaker 1 I have a system in place for writing recommendation letters, so it's a pretty straightforward ask for me. I know how long it takes.

Speaker 1 I know the students, so it's not very hard. But for a student, it is a game changer.
It could really determine whether they get into the college of their choice or you get into a job that they need.

Speaker 1 And so, for me, the past assault asks are a yes

Speaker 1 because it's high benefit to the other person and relatively low cost to me. There are asks which are very high cost to me and possibly not very great benefit to the other person.

Speaker 1 Or even if it is beneficial to the other person, I'm not the only one who can do it. In those cases, you are probably better off saying no

Speaker 1 and spending your time doing something that's more meaningful and more purpose-driven.

Speaker 2 Well, I love what you said about, you know, I could do it, but I'm not the only one who could do it. Because so often we think that when people ask us for something like,

Speaker 2 we're the go-to person, we could really, we're the one that they're really counting on.

Speaker 2 Well, we may have been fourth or fifth on the list ourselves that other people have already said no, but we think that, you know, if we say no, this whole, their whole world will collapse.

Speaker 1 Yes, that is such a useful insight to remember that we are not indispensable. And I often say to myself, you know, the graveyards are full of indispensable people.

Speaker 1 If you're not the only person who can do this particular task

Speaker 1 and you're really being pressed to do it, then consider the fact that there is somebody else out there who can do it as well. And those are tasks you should certainly think about saying no to.

Speaker 2 I would imagine it would help if you're not somebody who does this well or easily to practice on little things before you practice on the big things.

Speaker 1 It's really important to practice because the skill set

Speaker 1 is something that you have to develop over time. Even I, honestly, spend a lot of time thinking about how best and how most precisely to deliver a refusal response.

Speaker 1 So I might know that I want to say no, but I always buy time from the asker to be able to craft the no in a way that's more effective.

Speaker 2 And you also said something that's kind of interesting too, is that you may not have strong feelings one way or the other. So in those cases, how do you decide? I mean, yeah, I could do it.

Speaker 2 It's not a big deal, but I'd kind of really rather not. So, but, you know, what do I do?

Speaker 1 As soon as you say no, chances are the person just goes to the next person on their list. So it's not such a big deal.

Speaker 1 The other thing to think about is all the things you could be doing instead of of this particular task that you really did not want to do. There are so many ways you could spend your time

Speaker 1 that are more meaningful and much more purpose-driven.

Speaker 1 And so recognizing that just filling our calendar with tasks that are not aligned to our own priorities and preferences are not a good way to spend one's time.

Speaker 1 So one of the tools that I provide in the book is something called personal policies, which is setting up these rules about what you care about and the areas that you do want to invest in and making sure that you invest in those areas.

Speaker 1 So for example we can audit anyone's calendar and look at in your calendar, in your week, does that calendar look like the calendar that you want to see? Is it aligned with what you most care about?

Speaker 1 And if your calendar is filled with material or filled with appointments that un have nothing to do with what you're interested in or what you're good at or what you want to bring to the table as a human being then you need to rethink your priorities and develop some personal policies and some rules around how you want to spend your time and your energy

Speaker 2 there are times though where somebody needs a favor, somebody needs you to do something or wants you to do something

Speaker 2 and it might put you out, it might be disruptive, but it would be a really good thing to do. It's what a friend does, you know, drive me to the airport.

Speaker 2 Well, he could take an Uber, but you know, then he might miss his plane. And, you know, but I don't really have time, but I could make the time.

Speaker 2 Those kind of things I think people struggle with.

Speaker 1 Yes, there are some asks which are called heroes' journey asks. And heroes' journey asks are asks that are very hard for you to perform.

Speaker 1 They are effortful, time consuming, but they benefit the other person immensely.

Speaker 1 And so if you can undertake those heroes' journeys asks, you have to recognize that you are taking on something that's going to be inconveniencing, but that

Speaker 1 it benefits the other person. And when you're weighing those, the cost and the benefit, you make that decision.
But making that decision

Speaker 1 with clarity and with intention is better than falling into the trap of making a decision on the fly.

Speaker 1 If you think about it and decide, you know, this is how I do want to spend my time, this is a favor that's

Speaker 1 worth responding to favorably, then yes, by all means.

Speaker 2 I wonder, I don't know how you would

Speaker 2 study this, but I have this sense that people who say yes all the time get asked more often and that if you start to say no, people will stop asking so much.

Speaker 2 If you're the go-to person because you'll do anything for anybody,

Speaker 2 well, then everybody's going to come.

Speaker 1 Yes, that in fact, there is research on that. And the research really shows that there is a gender difference that comes into play.

Speaker 1 Women are much more likely to struggle with saying no, but they are also more likely to be asked to take on tasks

Speaker 1 which researchers call non-promotable tasks. So tasks in workplaces that have nothing to do with your actual job, but someone needs to do it, women are more likely to be asked to take on those tasks.

Speaker 1 In fact, 44% more likely to take on, to be asked to take on non-promotable tasks.

Speaker 1 And 76%

Speaker 1 more likely to say yes to those non-promotable tasks compared to men men who are more like, who are, who would say yes only 51% of the time.

Speaker 2 One of the things that you mentioned that you write about in your book that I found really interesting, and this is particularly valuable when you're dealing with really pushy people, is that you're 34 times more likely to say yes to an ask

Speaker 2 in person

Speaker 2 versus an email or a text or maybe even a phone call.

Speaker 2 That if you want to say no,

Speaker 2 trying to do it not face to face is pretty important. And also, it's not just what you're being asked to do, it's also who's doing the ask.

Speaker 2 And you're more likely to say yes to some people and say no to others, right?

Speaker 1 So, the people who are the easiest to say no to are the people who are close to us and

Speaker 1 with whom we have more secure relationships. So, close friends and family, if we say no to them, we are not concerned that our relationship will suffer or that our reputations are at risk.

Speaker 1 The other group of people that we can comfortably say no to are strangers who we will never encounter again.

Speaker 1 The large majority of people, however, unfortunately for us, fall into the bucket of acquaintances, people with whom we have weak social ties.

Speaker 1 and who we do want to impress and who we do want to have relationships with or positive relationships with

Speaker 2 Those are the people we struggle to say No to the most because we do worry about that relationship and that reputation Well, I think you've empowered people to say no and and not feel so bad about it that saying no can be a good thing I've been talking with Professor Vanessa Patrick from the University of Houston.

Speaker 2 She's author of the book The Power of Saying No, the new science of how to say no that puts you in charge of your life.

Speaker 2 And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Vanessa.
I really, really enjoyed the conversation.

Speaker 1 That's quite a compliment. Thank you, Mike.
I appreciate it.

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Speaker 2 You often hear people say they just want to be happy, that a happy life is a good life. The problem that brings up is that happiness is really just a fleeting emotion.

Speaker 2 You can be happy one minute and not happy the next. Your life can't be happy all the time.
In fact, 40% of people worldwide say they are not happy. And the reason is happiness is not sustainable.

Speaker 2 It's an emotion, not a state of being. What people likely mean when they say they want to lead a happy life is they want a life of satisfaction.
You can lead a satisfied life.

Speaker 2 Doesn't mean you'll be happy all the time, but overall life satisfaction, that sounds pretty good. And here to explain more about the difference between happiness and satisfaction is Dr.

Speaker 2 Jennifer Gutman. She is a psychologist in private practice and author of a book called Beyond Happiness, The Six Secrets of Life Satisfaction.
Hi, Jennifer. Welcome to Something You Should Know.

Speaker 3 Thank you so much for having me, Mike.

Speaker 2 So I get the sense that what you call a life of satisfaction, other people call happiness. It's just a semantic thing that happiness may not be the word you would use, but the goal is the same.

Speaker 2 And if you're seeking a life of happiness, aren't you still on the right path?

Speaker 3 I think that it's always been that people are searching for happiness.

Speaker 3 I mean, it's literally written into the Declaration of Independence that we have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But happiness is an emotion.
It comes and goes.

Speaker 3 It's not meant to be long-lasting. It never was.

Speaker 3 So I think that has always sent a confusing message to our brains, which is why it's not surprising that now there's hundreds of influencers and

Speaker 3 there's podcasts and there's books all about targeting happiness, except that...

Speaker 3 it's not meant to be an emotion that you can sustain. Something that is sustainable is satisfaction, but people aren't targeting that because it's not as sexy.

Speaker 3 So I don't know that it's any harder to be satisfied. It's that we're focusing on the wrong thing.

Speaker 2 So if happiness is this fleeting emotion, then what is specifically, what is satisfaction?

Speaker 3 Satisfaction is, if you think about it, it's like contentment or feeling at peace with yourself, how you feel at the end of a really productive day.

Speaker 3 Whereas happiness is how you feel when you see a child smile or or you get a compliment or you get a really nice text from somebody that's unexpected or you see a puppy playing.

Speaker 3 I mean, that's how you feel. You know, that's what you get a fleeting sense of joy or exuberance.
That's happiness. But satisfied is a much more sustaining feeling of contentment.

Speaker 2 Well, you just said that, you know, it's that feeling you get after at the end of a very productive day. But if you're truly satisfied, how do you feel at the end of the inevitable, really crappy day?

Speaker 2 Or do you feel different than people that aren't satisfied? Because you're going to have those days.

Speaker 3 We all have so many different emotions. We have happiness is an emotion like every other emotion.
We can feel sad. We can feel happy.
We can feel despairing. We can feel hopeless, resentful.

Speaker 3 Happy is just one of the many emotions we can feel. So sure, we can have a bad day and feel sad, but that sadness comes and goes.
And people don't necessarily question that.

Speaker 3 They may be frustrated that they had a sad day, but they're not going around wondering why they're failing at sadness. But people feel like they're failing at happiness.

Speaker 3 So, even if you are satisfied with your life, that doesn't, you know, preclude you from having a sad day or frustrating day.

Speaker 3 It just means that you would overall have the resilience to bounce back from a sad day, knowing that that doesn't mean that you have a hundred sad days ahead of you.

Speaker 3 It means that you can bounce back and know that maybe tomorrow or the next day is going to be a better day.

Speaker 2 And is that the secret then, to knowing that things will get better as opposed to living in a state of sadness and despair?

Speaker 2 Is despair like the opposite of satisfaction?

Speaker 3 Perfectly said.

Speaker 2 Oh, thanks. So what is despair?

Speaker 2 Is it a hopelessness?

Speaker 2 And is that part of the problem?

Speaker 3 Yes. I mean, I believe that it is.

Speaker 3 I believe when you look at resilience, what I say, what I believe is that when you master all the techniques that I talk about in terms of the building blocks of satisfaction, you develop resilience.

Speaker 3 And it's a belief in your ability to bounce back from adversity with a renewed sense of strength. positivity, hope, and purpose.

Speaker 3 And that is the things that combat a sense of existential despair so that you go back into the next day with a belief in all of your ability to tackle the next problem, as opposed to going into the next day feeling like, oh my gosh, today is going to be equally bad or worse than yesterday.

Speaker 2 Which is very hard to do sometimes. And I know you have these techniques to help people overcome this.
So explain some of the techniques.

Speaker 3 Sure. One of my techniques is avoiding assumptions.

Speaker 3 And assumptions is what we think that we should be feeling, like let's say happiness, or what we think that people are going to say or do.

Speaker 3 So let's take for a minute what you were saying about despair. I would say, okay, what's your assumption based on? Where's the evidence that that feeling of despair is going to last and last and last?

Speaker 3 In the past, when you felt like that, because

Speaker 3 you know, you must feel this because in the past, of course, despair is an emotion. You must have felt despairing before.
Has it lasted

Speaker 3 for the length of time that you're presuming it's going to last for? Or have you been able to bounce back from it? Where's the evidence that it's going to continue to last?

Speaker 3 Or has something happened to pull you out of it? And do you have enough evidence to present to a jury of your peers that this is this feeling, this emotion is never going to stop?

Speaker 3 Because emotions do come and go. They, they are all, all of them are not long-lasting, including that feeling that you're so low that it feels like you're not going to come back up.

Speaker 3 That's what I talk to people about, challenging those assumptions, that negativity bias that

Speaker 3 we are in a place that we can't pull ourselves out of.

Speaker 3 And then another one of my techniques, which would be decision-makings. What decision am I going to make today to change today in the positive direction

Speaker 3 so that maybe

Speaker 3 today will write the course,

Speaker 3 put it back on a course that makes me feel like I have a little bit more autonomy or a little bit more of an empowered feeling

Speaker 3 about my life so that I can start to pull myself back onto the track?

Speaker 2 In the quest to lead a satisfied life, as you call it,

Speaker 2 and I'm sure some people are very content and satisfied, but I know that it also seems human nature to worry about the future, to not be satisfied, to expect something bad to happen that you need to prepare for because

Speaker 2 it's human nature.

Speaker 3 That's exactly right. And that is because we are preset as mammals to have a negativity bias.

Speaker 3 We believe that we're looking for danger around every corner and that something is going to happen. So we look for

Speaker 3 the possibility that something is not going to turn out right, which is why we anticipate bad things happening instead of good things happening.

Speaker 3 But the awareness of our predisposition to a negativity bias can help us not be as afraid of the fact that it's going to happen. We can tell ourselves, okay,

Speaker 3 it's likely that I'm going to think this is going to turn out more, you know, worse than it may.

Speaker 3 And I need to remind myself, if I was going to have a column of positives and negatives, that last time there were more positives, even though my brain keeps pulling me back to the negatives.

Speaker 3 I have a lot of clients that have a ton of negative, you know, anticipation and assumptions before they do things. And I'll have them make three columns before they go out.

Speaker 3 I'll have them write a column, you know, to indicate on a scale of one to 10, how do you feel before you go in terms of dread or anticipatory anxiety?

Speaker 3 Then while you're out during the event, what's your dread during on a scale of one to 10?

Speaker 3 And then after you leave, when you're walking home or going home on a scale of one to 10, what's your dread then? Because how you reflect on the event can also be,

Speaker 3 you can also have a negativity bias if you let too much time elapse before you engage in this rating scale.

Speaker 3 And all of them are so surprised because the anticipatory anxiety rating is really high that they think that 10 or 8, it's going to be terrible. During is usually really low.

Speaker 3 And if they score themselves right after about whether they had a good time, it's also really low. But if they wait two or three days to score on reflection,

Speaker 3 the rating starts to go up again, that they remember not having as good a time as they actually did.

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell,

Speaker 2 how do you know, though, that this is

Speaker 2 cumulative? And by that, I mean that,

Speaker 2 because it seems very effortful every time you do something to have to make a list and make columns, and maybe it helps that instance.

Speaker 2 But where's the evidence that if you do it enough, that you get to this sustained life satisfaction that you talk about, as opposed to it just helps in this one situation?

Speaker 2 Because I can do, I can look back and realize that most times things worked out,

Speaker 2 but it doesn't really seem like it helps the next time.

Speaker 2 It's hard to pull that evidence and put it up front when you're facing another thing.

Speaker 2 And I love this idea of the sustained life satisfaction.

Speaker 2 Just seems so hard to

Speaker 2 accumulate all of this stuff together and get that.

Speaker 3 So there is so much research that we can actually change the neural pathways in our brains with practice the neural pathways in our brains and the neural circuitry is like it changes and adapts like every muscle in our bodies and i'm not promising a quick fix but i am promising that if you put effort into what i'm suggesting then it does change the neural circuitry in your brain.

Speaker 3 I have this client who did what I had suggested with the three columns. He doesn't need to do the three columns anymore.

Speaker 3 We were just talking the other day about an event and he was saying, it's so funny because I know that in the past, I would have thought, I don't want to go to such and such an event, but I know that's only coming from a place of negativity, not because I'm actually not going to have fun at the event.

Speaker 3 And he was able to do that without any columns or without thinking about it. It was just because he had practiced enough times going through this exercise.

Speaker 3 Like any kind of exercise for any part of our bodies, the more that you practice, your brain does learn.

Speaker 3 And I think it's important to remember that your brain is listening to everything that you say to yourself all of the time. If you talk negatively to yourself, your brain is listening.

Speaker 3 If you talk in a different way to yourself, your brain is also listening.

Speaker 2 And when you think about how tough we are on ourselves, how we say things to ourselves

Speaker 2 that aren't very nice, that we've never say to somebody else, it's taking a toll.

Speaker 3 We are extremely hard on ourselves. I, you know, believe that we have very critical inner monologues running most of the time.

Speaker 3 And I think that it's important that we stop the critical inner monologuing and try to, you know,

Speaker 3 transfer that critical inner coach to a compassionate coach because the critical inner coaches that we have are ineffective.

Speaker 3 And if we could change them to more compassionate coaches, that would be much more effective in terms of

Speaker 3 becoming more satisfied in your life.

Speaker 3 And you're right, we don't talk to ourselves the way we would talk to our children or the way that we would talk to our friends. We talk to ourselves much more critically.

Speaker 3 And we're not doing ourselves any favors by talking to ourselves like that.

Speaker 3 Because in the same way we don't talk to people in our lives like that, because we know if we talk to them like that, there's no way if they were on a baseball field and we talked like that to them, that they would hit a home run because they'd be so rattled by how we were talking to them.

Speaker 3 Why would we expect that if we were talking to ourselves like that, that we'd be making any home runs in life, talking to ourselves so critically?

Speaker 2 I love that. That's so true.
That's so true. But it seems hard to do.
I mean, it's hard to catch yourself because it's such a constant flow of self-criticism to actually stop it.

Speaker 2 I mean, again, it's like a very effortful thing that you have to, hey, wait, I'm talking that way to myself. Now I should stop doing that.

Speaker 3 You are absolutely right. What I am asking of people is to change the way that they think, to change the way that they talk to themselves.
And I'm saying that if you're motivated, you can do it.

Speaker 3 I mean, I live my brand. I started out as somebody that was an extremely critical thinker about herself.
I was extremely anxious. I was extremely shy.

Speaker 3 And I turned

Speaker 3 around the way that I think based on using these techniques on myself.

Speaker 3 people laugh because they think I'm the most extroverted person now and I'm not afraid of anything. I mean, all of that is not true.

Speaker 3 It's just that if you use these techniques enough on yourself, then it has long-lasting and actually amazing impact. And I've seen that.

Speaker 2 I just find it so interesting that for, I think for most people, if you look back over your life,

Speaker 2 a lot of things have a tendency to work out, but we don't look to the future that way.

Speaker 2 We don't take that evidence that things pretty much worked out in the past and they'll probably work out in the future. Not everything, but a lot of things.

Speaker 3 That's exactly right. I mean, some of my favorite conversations with clients is saying to them, how do you know that?

Speaker 3 They'll say something, they'll tell me a story, we'll be talking about it.

Speaker 3 And we'll be filled with assumptions. And it's making them so anxious.
And it's, it, it makes me, you know, it's heartbreaking to listen to. It really is for me.

Speaker 3 And then I'll say, but how do you know that?

Speaker 3 And they'll be, they'll say, what do you mean? And I'm like, there's so many places where I want to know, how do you know that that's what's going to happen?

Speaker 3 How do you know that's what's going to be just because you think it doesn't make it so?

Speaker 3 And can you come up with evidence for me that all of those fears that you have are actually going to come true or have any of them ever come true?

Speaker 3 And it changes the dialogue so much when people are actually forced to meditate on whether these fears have ever, you know, actually come true or just because they are thinking these things, it's sending them down a rabbit hole of

Speaker 3 potential fears.

Speaker 2 All of what you're talking about has very little to do with happiness, the way people talk about happiness. It isn't happiness, it is, as you say, it's life satisfaction.

Speaker 3 People say all the time, are you happy?

Speaker 3 And are you happy

Speaker 3 doesn't make sense because

Speaker 3 are you happy is a momentary feeling.

Speaker 3 You can only ask somebody if they're happy right after something would have happened that they're happy about.

Speaker 3 And if you ask somebody that and they

Speaker 3 and they think that they're failing at being happy all the time, then it sends their brain, which is always listening, into a really confused place.

Speaker 3 If we can change the vernacular for everybody to, are you satisfied? Are you content? That would be an amazing start to maybe turning around some of

Speaker 3 this existential despair, as you said, that we're experiencing in this country that has led to

Speaker 3 so much of this increases in depression that we're experiencing in this country to such a wide degree.

Speaker 2 But when people say, for example, I just want to be happy, what they really mean is I want to be satisfied. And so maybe they're using the wrong word in your view,

Speaker 2 but the goal's the same, right?

Speaker 3 Right, but they may already be on the road to that. And when they say, I want to be happy, if you pause and point out to them, but you did have moments of happiness, which is all happiness can be.

Speaker 3 It's fleeting. You already have the thing that exists when it comes to the word happy.

Speaker 3 Like you had that already. So now you need to focus on are you as satisfied as you can be?

Speaker 3 Because the fleeting aspects of happiness, you probably did have this week in the same way that you probably did have fleeting moments of sadness and every other emotion that

Speaker 3 human beings are capable of over the past week.

Speaker 3 So if that's what you've already have, focus more on whether you're as satisfied as you can be, not whether you can have more moments of fleeting happiness that are outside of your control.

Speaker 2 Well, it does seem though that there are some people who do have that, or they at least give off that sense that they're satisfied. My grandmother was someone like that.

Speaker 2 She always seemed very content in her life, even though, you know, she lost her husband early.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I mean, there were plenty of bumps in the road, but she had something that I, you know, I always envied because she seemed content. She just seemed content.

Speaker 3 Yes, but that's exactly what she probably was. That's the goal, right? She seemed content in her life.

Speaker 3 It's not that you're saying that she seemed happy all the time. She seemed content all the time.
And whether she was or whether she wasn't, I don't know. But that would be the goal.

Speaker 3 She was giving off a vibe of contentment as opposed to what people are aiming for today based on social media, where people see somebody looking fabulous and happy and then think that should be the sustaining emotion as opposed to whatever peacefulness your grandmother was giving off which felt like some kind of

Speaker 3 groundedness of stability that probably was very common to you and whether she felt like that her whole life or she felt like that during the latter part of her life I don't know, but it may be that she came to that with a, with hard work over the course of her life.

Speaker 3 And I'm going to guess that she did come to that feeling with hard work over the course of her life.

Speaker 2 Well, the distinction you make between happiness and satisfaction is something I haven't really thought much about, but it's a very different and very liberating way to think that can change the path of your life.

Speaker 2 Dr. Jennifer Gutman has been my guest.
She is a psychologist in private practice, and the name of her book is Beyond Happiness: The Six Secrets of Life Satisfaction.

Speaker 2 And there's a link to that book in the show notes. I appreciate you coming on.
Thanks, Jennifer.

Speaker 3 Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

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