Effective Strategies to Be More Persuasive &The Surprising Power of Being Nice

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Speaker 1 Today on something you should know, an easy way to make pain less painful. Then how you can become a more persuasive person.

Speaker 2 To be persuasive, you need to understand how people think in order to get them to think in the way you want them to. Because that's really what persuasion is.

Speaker 2 I have something I want you to do or something I want you to think, so I need to try and align your thinking to that.

Speaker 1 Also, an interesting difference between men and women when it comes to physical attractiveness and how being kind to others can be good for your health. And it doesn't take much.

Speaker 3 It doesn't have to be these really big and grand gestures. Scientists have found that even small acts of kindness can benefit your health.

Speaker 3 Specifically, the kind of sweet spot is three acts of kindness two days a week.

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Speaker 1 Something you should know. Fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life.
Today, something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

Speaker 1 If you don't like needles when you go to the doctor, I have something for you to remember or tell your kids to remember the next time that happens. Hi and welcome to something you should know.

Speaker 1 Millions of people hate getting shots when they go to the doctor. But did you know this? If you hold your breath, the pain won't be as bad.

Speaker 1 Spanish scientists found that a sharp intake of breath triggers your brain to dampen the nervous system, leaving you less sensitive to pain.

Speaker 1 What they did was they squished the fingernails of volunteers for five seconds. While this was going on, some of the volunteers took slow breaths and other volunteers held their breath.

Speaker 1 And those who held their breath reported the pain as much less severe, by about half.

Speaker 1 This technique only works when you know the pain is coming and you start to hold your breath beforehand, which is why it's perfect for when you get a shot at the doctor.

Speaker 1 And that is something you should know.

Speaker 1 Being persuasive and influential. That's a skill I suspect almost everyone wishes they were better at.

Speaker 1 So what are the building blocks to being persuasive? What do you have to do to get people to allow you to persuade them, to get them to do what you want or think what you want them to think?

Speaker 1 That is what Dr. Abby Morono is here to discuss.
Abby is a scientist and practitioner in the field of human behavior, and she is recognized by the U.S.

Speaker 1 Department of State as being in the top 1% of behavior analysis experts.

Speaker 1 And she is author of a book called The Upper Hand, Mastering Persuasion and Getting What You Want with the Science of Social Engineering. Hey, Abby, welcome to Something You Should Know.

Speaker 2 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 So as I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking, you know, I know people who I consider consider pretty persuasive. And I think in general, we admire people who are persuasive.

Speaker 1 I'm not sure why that is, but there's something admirable

Speaker 1 or charming or there's something about a persuasive person. What is that?

Speaker 2 Well, I think charm is the way that we tend to verbalize it, but it's hard to know why. We are

Speaker 2 drawn to those kinds of people, but it's the underpinning psychology. They understand how to make us feel comfortable.
They understand how to make us feel seen and validated.

Speaker 2 And we're drawn to people that have that ability to create that rapport and positive feeling that feels authentic. It's that, oh, I don't know why I want to be around this person, but I do.

Speaker 1 And is it your sense that that is something people do naturally? Or is it an art they have learned?

Speaker 2 I think it's a bit of both. I think some people are naturally really talented at recognizing what other people need and how to make them feel validated and just do it naturally.

Speaker 2 But even with a natural ability, if you have an understanding of human psychology, you can be a lot more effective.

Speaker 2 And some people who are not naturally very charismatic, they can end up being the most charismatic because now they can start to understand, okay, well, how do people think?

Speaker 2 What is it that people need? What is it that makes people feel comfortable? And they can start actively doing those things.

Speaker 1 And before we get into the psychology of it all, it's my sense, and I want to get your comment on this.

Speaker 1 It's my sense that we are more persuaded by some people than others because of their looks, their attractiveness, what they're wearing, how tall they are, things like that, right?

Speaker 2 Yes. And you pick up on a really important point when I talk about influence.
We all are biased because the brain is so powerful, but it's so energy hungry.

Speaker 2 It weighs 2% of our body mass, but it takes up 20% of our energy. So in order to get us through our daily interactions and not be overwhelmed all the time, it takes mental shortcuts.

Speaker 2 It needs to simplify information. And that's where biases come in.
We take information in and we try and understand it as easily and quickly as possible. And that leads to missteps in thinking.

Speaker 2 For example, a very well-known bias is the halo effect. We see someone who is attractive and we tend to assume that because we have...

Speaker 2 they are rated as having a positive characteristic in one area like attractiveness they have positivity in other areas that aren't necessarily related so we know with the halo effect we tend to rate people who are more attractive as more intelligent or more trustworthy without actually having the same evidence that they are.

Speaker 2 And there are hundreds of biases that we all fall for. And there are some people that think, oh, well,

Speaker 2 I don't have a bias. And that in itself is a bias.
And the bias that we don't think we have a bias is called our blind spot bias.

Speaker 1 I like that we have a bias that we don't have any biases.

Speaker 1 That's the the best.

Speaker 1 And so is there a message there that if you want to be persuasive, you need to look the part and appeal to those biases as best you can?

Speaker 2 Yes. And this is one that I always get a little bit of backlash on because people say, you know, if we are dressing more formally, we are perceived as more intelligent and more professional.

Speaker 2 And then you do get that backlash of, well, you know, this is a modern times. We should be able to wear what what we want.

Speaker 2 Fine, no problem. You can wear what you want, but it doesn't mean the perception has to change.
There are facts about how we perceive other people that just are the way that they are.

Speaker 2 And it might not be what you want it to be. And you might feel, well, that's an offensive characteristic or that's an offensive judgment, but it doesn't mean that the judgment isn't there.

Speaker 2 And you can argue against it or you can use it to your advantage. So if you want to be perceived as more competent, competent, the way you dress, the way you carry yourself absolutely does matter.

Speaker 1 Is it a case of

Speaker 1 the way you dress and how you present yourself matters based on who you're talking to?

Speaker 1 Or are there objective ways that, you know, if you wear a tie and a coat, you're going to be perceived better than if you wear a t-shirt and shorts? Or does it really depend on who you're talking to?

Speaker 2 Well, it depends on the context. So if we're talking about a professional context, then absolutely, it is on average, you're perceived as more competent and more confident.

Speaker 2 And even though there is a societal move towards being more casual, that perception of confidence and competence has remained the same.

Speaker 2 That people who dress more formally and not just confident and competent, but also more intelligent. People who dress more professionally are perceived as more intelligent.

Speaker 2 And the important fact there is perceived, it doesn't necessarily mean they are, but perception really does matter.

Speaker 2 Because for example, perception of trustworthiness, I always say it's like a double-sided coin where you have to be trustworthy and you have to be confident, but you have to be perceived as confident too.

Speaker 2 Because say the perception is what opens the door. If someone's going to trust you, they need to perceive you as trustworthy first.

Speaker 2 And then once you're in the room, that's where actual trustworthiness is important to keep you in that room. Otherwise, you'll just get kicked out.
But you have to have both parts.

Speaker 2 The door has to be open and you have to be able to stay in.

Speaker 2 So just being trustworthy or just being competent, if you don't know how to present yourself with the right perception, then you're doing yourself a disservice.

Speaker 1 I am so glad to hear you say that, what you said about

Speaker 1 this whole notion of, you know, well, things are more casual now and you don't have to,

Speaker 1 but that doesn't change the way people perceive you. Just because you think you should be more casual doesn't change anything.
And I've always, I've always liked when people dressed up.

Speaker 1 I like when people put on a tie and a coat. But sometimes when I do it, I feel...
odd because nobody else is doing it. So then I dress down and then I, but, but I don't like that.

Speaker 2 Yes. And we can kind of feel like we're sticking sticking out like a sore thumb, but is that necessarily a bad thing?

Speaker 2 Because if everybody else is dressing down and you're continuing to stay formal, then you're kind of giving yourself the upper hand in perception-wise, anyway.

Speaker 1 Beyond the looks and

Speaker 1 how people perceive you,

Speaker 1 there is an art and I suspect a science to being persuasive. And can you guide me into that?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Well, when you read a lot of the influence books on persuasion and influence, what I have found is they are very surface level and

Speaker 2 that they're great.

Speaker 2 But what they teach you is do X and you'll get Y. So if you're learning to be persuasive, you get, okay, do X technique.
and then you'll be more persuasive.

Speaker 2 But the problem with that is it doesn't really teach you why. It doesn't let you understand why you're being more persuasive.
So how can you take that approach and tailor it to different situations?

Speaker 2 So the way I thought

Speaker 2 the best way to present had to be persuasive is people need to understand how people think.

Speaker 2 Because to be persuasive, you need to understand how people think in order to get them to think in the way you want them to. Because that's really what persuasion is.

Speaker 2 I have a goal or I have something I want you to do or something you want me to want you to think. So I need to try and align your thinking to that or your behavior to that.

Speaker 2 If I don't understand the roots of how people make decisions in the first place, that pure psychology, how am I going to reach that goal effectively?

Speaker 2 And how am I going to know what barriers there are in there? So it's understanding human decision making.

Speaker 2 And like I said, I created a framework that's the underpinnings of how human beings make decisions, which sounds really complicated, but I thought of it as

Speaker 2 like if you think of a plant, you can have thousands of different types of plants and they're so different. You have a cheese plant versus a cactus versus a lily, completely different.

Speaker 2 But if you really go to the root of it, they all need the same basic stuff, right? Soil, water, sunlight. And people are much the same because we are 99.9% genetically identical.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 that, there has to be commonalities, if understood, can be exploited. And that's really where the art of persuasion comes in, is understanding those commonalities

Speaker 2 in how all human beings make decisions. So then you can take that and then create tactics from it.

Speaker 1 Well, I certainly want to find out what those commonalities are. I'm speaking with Abby Morono.

Speaker 1 She's author of the book The Upper Hand, Mastering Persuasion and Getting What You Want with the Science of Social engineering.

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Speaker 1 So Abby, you said there are commonalities in the way people make decisions. What are they?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 So the first one is we are our brains.

Speaker 2 And that simply means that all thought and behavior originates in the brain. It doesn't just drive us, it defines us.
So we have to have a basic understanding of the brain.

Speaker 2 And again, that's where the cognitive biases and things come in. And then the second principle is the drive to survive.
And this is the most deeply ingrained human drive there is.

Speaker 2 We seek safety and avoid threats. Meaning, if you appear as a threat to a person, it doesn't matter what approach you take because you have now encroached on their safety.

Speaker 2 So their brain is saying to them, you are the danger and they want to escape the danger. The third principle is that we are designed to connect and cooperate.
We are a social species.

Speaker 2 There is absolutely no denying throughout evolutionary history, our survival has depended on our social relationships.

Speaker 2 Meaning, we are actually wired for survival and maintaining social relationships is crucial to that which is why when we have positive social interactions we get a boost of oxytocin so if we take this understanding

Speaker 2 in order to build trust we need to understand okay well how can i create bonding how can i utilize this social aspect of human beings and then principle number four is the mind body feedback loop we are interconnected with our thoughts feelings and physical states so our inner states the emotions, feelings, thoughts, are affected by the physical environment, like the temperature outside, if there's noise, the people around us, and then vice versa.

Speaker 2 So they affect each other. If I control one, for example, if I control the lighting,

Speaker 2 I can then control how focused someone is. Or if I change my emotion, I can change my perception of my interactions.
So changing inner can change outer and vice versa.

Speaker 2 And then the final principle to understand is that we all have a unique self-identity. And that's where that 0.1% comes in.
So like I said, we're 99.9% genetically identical. but we are very unique.

Speaker 2 And understanding everyone's individual self-identity and the way they perceive themselves and define themselves, we can understand what it is that matters to that person and how to relate to them and how to validate them.

Speaker 2 And if we take these five principles individually, they're all very effective to understand for influence.

Speaker 2 But when we're creating tactics, if we understand them as a whole and how to appeal to all of them or how to not accidentally contradict some of them, we can be a lot more effective in our influence approach.

Speaker 1 So, can you take those things in as simple a way as you can and put them into practice? Give me an example of

Speaker 1 those things at work.

Speaker 2 So, for example, one technique technique I call speak their language.

Speaker 2 If you understand someone, you can speak their language in a way that makes them feel understood, valued, and relatable. And that doesn't mean copying their accent or slang.

Speaker 2 It means matching their communication style. What are their priorities? What are their world views?

Speaker 2 And when people feel receptive or when people feel understood, even they're more receptive to your message. So let's say, for example,

Speaker 2 you're pitching an idea to someone who is very risk averse.

Speaker 2 Instead of calling your plan disruptive and bold, you describe it as tested, strategic, and designed to minimize long-term risk because you've understood what matters to that person.

Speaker 2 You've understood what... triggers their survival drive.
So let's take that principle of survival.

Speaker 2 If someone is risk averse, if they feel that there might be a risk to it, they're going to activate that survival drive.

Speaker 2 So knowing that and then understanding their self-identity, we can adapt our message. So we change the way we communicate.
We're not imitating, we're not pretending to be them.

Speaker 2 We're kind of meeting them where they are.

Speaker 2 So that is a really simple example of how we can change the way we communicate when we understand someone. And it doesn't mean that we're using

Speaker 2 manipulation or anything to coerce them it simply means we're just being adaptable and we're being influential so if you could take another one of your five principles there and put it in action just like you just did with that one yep so loss aversion is a cognitive bias where we

Speaker 2 think things are worth more if they belong to us. So we are more afraid of losing them.

Speaker 2 So if you're trying to get someone to provide you information, you can utilize this natural tendency to have loss aversion as framing the consequence of withholding information as something they might regret later.

Speaker 2 So I teach this to federal agents that are trying to get cooperation. And one way they utilize this is when they're talking about giving your side of the story.

Speaker 2 So if you're speaking to a suspect, we can utilize loss aversion of

Speaker 2 if you're not able to provide me this information. You know, I've seen so many cases where people withheld information that they thought wasn't important and it came back to haunt them.

Speaker 2 So in that, the way you're framing it, you're showing them that if you don't provide me this, you're losing something.

Speaker 2 Rather than saying, you know, please give me this information, it will help us.

Speaker 2 We're also utilizing that natural tendency to be loss averse by saying the consequences of not providing me this is you're going to lose the ability to have something or you're going to lose the control over this case.

Speaker 1 Do you think though that once you understand the five things that you outlined that you're fairly able to then adapt them to your situation? Like, okay, now I get that. So now let's do it this way.

Speaker 1 Or is this something that really has to be studied? Because a lot of persuasion is done on your feet. I mean, you don't have time to prepare your presentation.
It's, it's, you got to do it right now.

Speaker 2 And that's a fantastic question. So this is where the ability to establish quick rapport comes in.

Speaker 2 We know that the best way to get information and to get someone to do what we want them to do is FaceTime, as in more time with them.

Speaker 2 If you have the ability to understand how to present yourself, you're more likely to get quick rapport. So if I know what creates oxytocin, so let's go to that connect and cooperate principle.

Speaker 2 If I know what creates oxytocin and makes someone feel bonded to me, I'm going to be able to understand them quicker because they're going to give me more information. They're going to

Speaker 2 think I'm more likable. They're going to be more trusting towards me.
So for example, let's take a quick tactic. When we have a genuine smile, it creates oxytocin in the brain.

Speaker 2 So if we're interacting and I greet you and I I don't greet you with a smile, I'm doing myself a disservice. If I greet you with a smile, I can increase a little oxytocin.

Speaker 2 And then other factors like my body orientation matters.

Speaker 2 So if I'm talking to you and my body is orientated away, but I'm facing you, research has shown that it creates a reduced perception of empathy.

Speaker 2 Whereas if I'm orientating towards you and maybe I'm also slightly mimicking your behavior, we know that it creates more oxytocin. We know that it creates more trust and more feelings of closeness.

Speaker 2 So all of these things, when you understand

Speaker 2 how people think and what makes people feel comfortable, you can utilize those tactics to create faster rapport. So you do get to know that person.

Speaker 2 Because if I want to influence you to buy something, I need to understand what your motives are. I need to understand what matters to you.

Speaker 2 And the best way to do that is to make you feel comfortable, just telling me information, just telling me a little about yourself.

Speaker 2 And if I utilize those tactics that create bonding, you're more comfortable telling me more information.

Speaker 2 Maybe I ask about a recent holiday you went on because you have a picture of a holiday, or I ask about your family and you open up a little more.

Speaker 2 Small conversation about hobbies or profession, or wherever I direct the tech, wherever I direct the conversation, I can find out things that matter to you and then I can utilize those inside my influence approach.

Speaker 1 Is there also just something to the fact that you're showing interest and acting, or maybe you are, interested in what they have to say about their hobbies or whatever, that

Speaker 1 that has an effect as well?

Speaker 2 Yep, absolutely. And again, that goes into the connect and cooperate principle of we are naturally social creatures and we like to be liked.

Speaker 2 And it feels good when people are reinforcing our self-concepts.

Speaker 2 So say if I see see myself as someone who is a logical thinker, if you say, wow, you're, you know, you have a lot of attention to detail. Oh, you've just reinforced my self-image.

Speaker 2 That feels really good. And it creates more liking towards you.
And if you're showing me interest in my life, in my career, then it creates more liking towards you and more bonding.

Speaker 2 So just being able to create a conversation and showing interest in someone is in itself a tactic of creating cooperation.

Speaker 1 Well, as I said, I think persuasion is one of those things that people wish they were better at and knew more about. And well, and now we do know more about it.
I've been speaking with Dr.

Speaker 1 Abby Morono. She is a scientist and practitioner in the field of human behavior.

Speaker 1 And she is author of the book, The Upper Hand, Mastering Persuasion and Getting What You Want with the Science of Social Engineering. There's a link to her book in the show notes.
And Abby, thank you.

Speaker 2 Amazing. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1 Do you make it a point to help other people, to volunteer, or help with caregiving? Or as it's commonly said, do you give back or pay it forward or whatever you want to call it?

Speaker 1 You've probably heard that helping or volunteering is good for you, that there are health benefits to it, and there are psychological and social benefits as well.

Speaker 1 And the way that all works and how you can take advantage of it is all very interesting. Here to discuss it is Nicole Carlos.

Speaker 1 She's a health and science journalist whose work has been published in Salon and the New York Times and Marie Claire and other places.

Speaker 1 And she has a book out called Your Brain on Altruism, the Power of Connection and Community During Times of Crisis. Hi, Nicole.
Welcome.

Speaker 3 Hi, Mike. Thank you for having me.
I'm really happy to be here.

Speaker 1 So I think most of us have heard from the time we were very young that it's good to help other people. People in need need our help and we should help them.

Speaker 1 That altruism is the right thing to do because helping other people helps other people. But it's also good for the person doing the helping.

Speaker 1 And so my first question is, how is it good for the person doing the helping?

Speaker 3 So I've found there are numerous health benefits to altruism, like participating in regular volunteering. Specifically, it can help improve cognitive function and slow cognitive decline.

Speaker 3 Research also suggests it can help build immunity to protect against disease acceleration.

Speaker 3 And some research shows that people who volunteer regularly live longer, have fewer hospital visits, and are overall in better health.

Speaker 3 On a day-to-day basis, altruism can reduce stress, anxiety, and loneliness.

Speaker 1 And you define altruism as what?

Speaker 3 Altruism is when we act to improve someone else's well-being.

Speaker 3 I use the word altruism interchangeably with kindness, caring, and generosity.

Speaker 3 It really is a stylistic choice to do that because at the end of the day, it just boils down to an action that benefits another person's welfare without the expectation of receiving something in return.

Speaker 1 The benefits to doing this, I think everybody has felt them.

Speaker 1 I mean, anytime you've done something nice for somebody, even like, you know, helping somebody who's lost, give them directions to get to wherever they're going, there's something about it that just feels right.

Speaker 1 Like, wow, that, you know, I was, I was really glad to help that person.

Speaker 1 And that feeling is, I think, kind of at the core of this whole topic, right? I mean, that desire and fulfillment of helping is a real human thing.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. I think that's for a few reasons.

Speaker 3 One, because it's a novel experience, and that really factors into these health benefits that I discovered by interviewing neuroscientists and psychologists.

Speaker 3 It's not just, you know, meeting up with friends. And sure, that feels good too, but it really gives you a sense of purpose.

Speaker 3 And it can really, you require a certain level of vulnerability in this interaction

Speaker 3 when you're helping someone and also when you're asking for help.

Speaker 1 The people who do this and who do this well and

Speaker 1 who do this just as part of their life,

Speaker 1 do they have other things in common?

Speaker 1 Is there a certain type of person drawn to altruism?

Speaker 3 That's a really good question.

Speaker 3 I think that

Speaker 3 what can draw a person to altruism is that they've been on the other end of an altruistic exchange.

Speaker 3 So maybe, you know, in a time of their life where they've really found themselves to be in crisis and need help, people,

Speaker 3 strangers or people in their community really stepped up to help them. And we remember that.
We remember when people are kind to us, when people have gone above and beyond to help us.

Speaker 3 And research shows that when you're on the receiving end of that that act, that you really, you want to pass that on. You want to carry that on.

Speaker 3 And it can be a life-changing interaction where then you, you do want to engage in more altruism in your life.

Speaker 1 And generally, when I think when people think about altruism, they think about,

Speaker 1 you know, helping at the shelter or,

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't know what they think.

Speaker 1 What do people think when you say, what kind of altruistic things do you do? What is it people tend to do?

Speaker 3 Part of what I want people to take away from the research that I found is that it doesn't have to be these really big and grand gestures.

Speaker 3 Scientists have found that even small acts of kindness can benefit your health.

Speaker 3 Specifically, the kind of sweet spot is three acts of kindness two days a week.

Speaker 3 And the reason behind that is that so it doesn't really become, you know, another item you have to check off your to-do list every day,

Speaker 3 that it's something that, you know, you kind of look forward to. And once again, it's this novel experience that you're experiencing.

Speaker 3 But an act of kindness, you know, can just be buying a stranger's coffee.

Speaker 3 It can also just be being kinder to people who are in your life, doing, you know, we think like we have to do it to a stranger, someone we don't know.

Speaker 3 It could just be, you know, helping a family member with grocery shopping or just showing up to their house with a tea or coffee or a treat. It doesn't have to be regular volunteering.

Speaker 3 However, the science does show that there are major health benefits to regularly volunteering, especially later in life.

Speaker 1 And when people, you talk to people who do it, are they doing it for the health benefits? I would think not. But I mean, that's more of a

Speaker 1 side benefit as much as it's not the reason people do it.

Speaker 3 You know, what you're, I think, kind of alluding here to here is intention. And that's actually a really important part

Speaker 3 in experiencing the health benefits that I've found of altruism. And so the intention, you know, really has to be to help the, you know, to be of service, to help the people that you want to help.

Speaker 3 At the same time, there's nothing wrong with going into an act of altruism and knowing there are health benefits to this and I'm going to feel really great after this.

Speaker 3 And maybe there is a part of me that is doing this because I know that people who volunteer regularly have fewer hospital visits or have maybe less disease.

Speaker 3 So I know that there's nothing wrong with going into an act of altruism knowing that you'll benefit from it as well. But I do think that people really want to be of service to others.

Speaker 3 It's really, you know, neuroscientists tell me it's not a nice to have. It's not something that's fluffy for good brain health.
It's actually a must-have for good brain health.

Speaker 1 So what is the mechanism? What is it that makes it so if I go buy somebody a cup of coffee or I help

Speaker 1 an old lady across the street, how does that help my health?

Speaker 1 What's the connection?

Speaker 3 So I think what's important to understand that is to first take a step back and look at how chronic stress affects the brain.

Speaker 3 So chronic stress kills brain cells and specifically it affects the brain's frontal networks, which are responsible for our higher order thinking, critical thinking, problem solving, and creativity.

Speaker 3 You know, what makes us special as humans. And so when chronic stress shuts this down, we are forced into a fight or flight mode and the sympathetic nervous system is activated.

Speaker 3 So neuroscientists believe that what is called an open posture, something that can, you know, make you feel more open, this can bring the brain, the

Speaker 3 front part of the brain back online. And curiosity is one way to do that.
And curiosity can do that through an act of kindness.

Speaker 3 So even though an act of kindness, when you're in that fight or flight mode, can feel hard to access, it can actually bring the brain, the frontal cortex back online and

Speaker 3 activate that parasympathetic nervous system, which is when we feel safe and cared for and more relaxed.

Speaker 1 But I'm still not clear. I'm still not understanding the

Speaker 1 magic that happens here of you're healthier,

Speaker 1 you're less likely to go to the hospital because you help somebody.

Speaker 3 There's also another part of the brain that neuroscientists have seen that's activated during an act of kindness, during an act of altruism, and that's the ventral striatum.

Speaker 3 And we know that that's responsible for, you know, feeling the happy hormone, which is dopamine.

Speaker 3 But scientists have found that it's not the same thing that happens in the brain when you go and eat really good food or do something that's more of a self-focused activity, that that part of the brain can actually be lit up for a longer time.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 researchers suspect that actually altruism can create a more durable and more sustainable, lasting sort of feel-good. And this, you know, we kind of in society refer to this as the helper's high.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, I think everyone has probably heard of the helper's high and probably felt that helper's high of doing something nice for someone. And it just, you know, it feels like a high.

Speaker 1 It feels good. You really helped.
And it lasts a while. It doesn't last a long while, it seems, but it, but it does last for a while.

Speaker 1 And then and then it goes away, I guess, until the next time you do something.

Speaker 3 And something that I think is important to talk about, too, is that that feel-good feeling that we're talking about is really important, but that's not necessarily what I think we are chasing when we engage in acts of service.

Speaker 3 I think what we're actually looking is for is a way to build resilience mentally, emotionally, and physically. Because at the end of the day, we're always going to be facing a crisis.

Speaker 3 We're not going, you know, there's nothing we can do to make us happy permanently long term. It's not a sustainable feeling.

Speaker 3 But I think that what I ultimately found in my research is that altruism can be a catalyst to building resilience.

Speaker 3 So, I mean, even though we just talked about like the helper's high, and even though that fades, what we do know is that there are health benefits to helping others and it can help us build resilience individually and as a society.

Speaker 1 There are people who will say that the reason they don't volunteer, they don't want to go down to the animal shelter or the homeless shelter and help, because it makes them sad. It's hard to watch.

Speaker 1 other people I've heard say, well, you know, I mean, so what if you go down and you serve a meal to the homeless, it doesn't address the problem.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's nice to give them a meal, but they'll need another meal after you've gone home and you really haven't helped the problem to which you would say.

Speaker 3 Well, I would say that then maybe that's not the right volunteer opportunity for those people.

Speaker 3 The whole point is to do something that makes you feel good, that does give you that sense of purpose, that will, you know, give you the benefits that I talk about.

Speaker 3 For some people, maybe that's just not the right opportunity. Throughout my research, I found that basically volunteering depends on what season of life you're in.

Speaker 3 So you can either be in a season of giving, receiving, or witnessing.

Speaker 3 And maybe for those people, they're not in a place in their life where they can give.

Speaker 1 What about giving money? Does that count? Does that have the same benefits as volunteering? Or is that something entirely different?

Speaker 3 That's a good question. So research suggests that giving money doesn't have the same effects, the same health effects.

Speaker 3 But I always say that that doesn't mean if that's the only thing you can give in the moment and

Speaker 3 that's what you want to do, then, you know, why not?

Speaker 3 And specifically, I'm thinking about a situation where people are on Instagram and a big wildfire happened, and someone's sharing a GoFundMe for their friend or family.

Speaker 3 And, you know, in that moment, that's something that you can do to help, and you will feel better. You'll feel less, you know, like the world is in crisis

Speaker 3 and more like you were able to do something and to help people in this situation.

Speaker 1 I know people, and I actually remember being in this situation once when I was younger, of wanting to volunteer and not really knowing like where to go or who to call or where to show up.

Speaker 1 Like I was willing, but I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 3 You know, it's actually really difficult to volunteer, to volunteer your free time regularly. People work.
People are parents. People have family members to take care of.
People,

Speaker 3 you know, are burned out and want to go home and relax. They don't necessarily want to go and volunteer again.
So

Speaker 3 what I'd like to see is

Speaker 3 I call for what I describe as a culture of caring, where as a society, we prioritize the act of caring for others, where we see caring for others as a strength and not a weakness.

Speaker 3 And what that can look like is in the workforce, people

Speaker 3 actually actually giving workers time to go and volunteer if they want to.

Speaker 3 Like I was saying before about caregivers, caregiving in isolation, more providing more societal support for caregivers. So if they do want to volunteer as well

Speaker 3 in their communities, they have the time and space to do that.

Speaker 1 So where do you begin? Like if you haven't done this before, if you haven't really thought much about this, like what's the prescription here to get your toe in the water?

Speaker 3 Well, it depends, you know, where you're at in your life.

Speaker 3 If you really feel like you are in a season of giving and you have the space to regularly volunteer, I think that the first place to start is just thinking about what your interests are and what you're really passionate about.

Speaker 3 And then thinking, you know, what works for you logistically. You know, I,

Speaker 3 if, you know, you're really into marine mammals and you want to help the elephant seals,

Speaker 3 but you live an hour and a half from the rescue center, are you realistically going to be able to

Speaker 3 travel an hour and a half twice a week or whatever it is? So I think just being really realistic with yourself as well.

Speaker 3 And I think also, you know, once you start, just remembering like it doesn't have to be perfect. It can take some time, honestly, to maybe enjoy it.

Speaker 3 And part of, you know, the health benefits, it's not just from giving to others, but it's about connecting with people in your community too. So really connecting with the other volunteers.

Speaker 3 So I would encourage people to be social as well and to be open to making new connections with, you know, people who are also volunteering as well.

Speaker 1 And I would imagine it's easier if you do it with someone. You know, it can be a little intimidating.

Speaker 1 to go by yourself someplace you've never been to to volunteer and not really know the lay of the land but doing it with somebody else probably makes it easier.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I always say that if you want to catch up with a friend, you know, it's really easy to go grab a coffee and go on a walk together.

Speaker 3 But if you really want like some peak, you know, optimal health benefits and something that would be like really memorable for the both of you, it would be going to go volunteer together.

Speaker 3 And I've personally, I have done this with friends and like it's it's such a fun thing to do with a friend or family member is there any research anything that you looked into about like when you volunteer

Speaker 1 do people tend to and is it a good idea to volunteer at the same place frequently or hop around and you know this week we're going to do this and now we're going to go over here and do that and you know maybe we'll go back to that other one but you know it's more of a variety rather than just staying with one organization or one plan of attack and doing that

Speaker 3 I personally think that you'll experience the benefits more if you stick to something regularly because you will be connecting with other volunteers.

Speaker 3 You will be creating friendships and you will be really, you'll be able to see your impact more over a longer period of time than just one day.

Speaker 1 And, you know, people have a tendency to help maybe more at Christmas or, you know, that there's seasons for this where, you know, there's plenty of, there's plenty of volunteers at the shelter on Thanksgiving.

Speaker 1 And, you know, it's, it's in June that they need help.

Speaker 3 Right. I do think that people frequently during Christmas, oh, I want to do something to give back.

Speaker 3 And then oftentimes what people find is a lot of, you know, these volunteer opportunities, they're booked. These these organizations don't need more volunteers.

Speaker 3 So that's, you know, another reason why, you know, to maybe try to do this if you can, if you're in a season of giving,

Speaker 3 to do this, like you said, in June and spring. So then, you know, when Christmas time does come along, you, you know how to volunteer with this organization and you're connected to them already.

Speaker 1 And what about, what about, because this happened to my son, like, you know, he, he wanted to volunteer and he went, he went down to this place.

Speaker 1 And what they had him do wasn't what he thought he was going to do. You know, they basically had him stacking boxes in the back that, you know, really wasn't connecting with the people in need.

Speaker 1 I mean, as a job that had to be done, and he was willing to do it, but he didn't get the fulfillment out of it that he thought he would because

Speaker 1 he was in the back stacking boxes and it didn't really feel like he was really helping anybody.

Speaker 3 You know, I think what your son experienced can happen actually pretty frequently. People can maybe be disappointed by their experiences.

Speaker 3 But I think what the issue is that it's hard to volunteer in our culture and in our society. And I think we need to make it more accessible and easier for people to do regularly and when they want to.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm really glad you brought up the point that helping out, that volunteering isn't always easy. You know, you have to find the time in your schedule.

Speaker 1 Then you have to find a place, an organization, someone that can use you and that offers you something that you can do that you will find fulfilling. And

Speaker 1 then you have to approach that organization. I mean, there is a lot to it, and yet the rewards are pretty spectacular.
I've been talking with Nicole Carlos.

Speaker 1 She's a health and science journalist and author of the book, Your Brain on Altruism: The Power of Connection and Community During Times of Crisis.

Speaker 1 There's a link to her book in the show notes, and I appreciate you coming on and talking about this. Thanks, Nicole.

Speaker 3 Good. Thank you, Mike.

Speaker 1 As men age and their midsection gets bigger, women are typically forgiving. However, when women get heavier as they age, men are less forgiving.
Why?

Speaker 1 Well, when women see a man with a dad bod, they think he's a family man. He's a nurturer.
He's putting his family before himself.

Speaker 1 But when men see women with a mom bod, they think,

Speaker 1 she's lazy. She still hasn't lost the baby weight.
This is according to Jennifer Walkin, a psychologist at the Joan H. Tisch Center for Women's Health.

Speaker 1 The dad bod becomes a symbol of attractiveness to women, suggesting that he could be a good husband and father.

Speaker 1 He has pursuits outside the gym, and he's not going to stand you up for dinner because he has to get in a workout.

Speaker 1 Meanwhile, to men, physical attractiveness to their significant other is just a bigger deal, she says.

Speaker 1 After all, back in our cavemen days, it was the best predictor of women's health and how good a partner she would be. But there's a bit more to it than that, says Jennifer Walkin.

Speaker 1 Women judge themselves more harshly than most men ever will. For instance, when you ask women about their ideal body size, it tends to be thinner than what men prefer.

Speaker 1 What women might see as overweight or heavy, men often see as normal or healthy and likely attractive. And that is something you should know.
We are at the conclusion of this episode.

Speaker 1 A good time for you to take a moment and use that share function on your podcast app thing and send this episode to someone you know and suggest they give a listen. I'm Mike Carruthers.

Speaker 1 Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

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Speaker 1 The infinite monkey cage returns imminently. I am Robin Ince, and I'm sat next to Brian Cox, who has so much to tell you about what's on the new series.
Primarily eels. And what else?

Speaker 1 It was fascinating, though. the eels.
But we're not just doing eels, are we? We're doing a bit.

Speaker 1 Brain-computer interfaces, timekeeping, fusion, monkey business, cloud, signs of the North Pole, and eels. Did I mention the eels?

Speaker 1 Is this ever since you bought that timeshare underneath the Sagasso C? Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.