The Power of Adaptability with Herman Pontzer

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Some perspectives on the origin of who and what we are coming up on Special Edition.

Welcome to Star Talk,

your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide.

Star Talk begins right now.

This is Star Talk Special Edition.

Today, we're going to be talking about the human condition that is centerline to what star talk special edition is all about and of course if it's special edition it means we've got gary o'reilly hey neil all right gary yep former soccer pro yes and of course chuck nice chucky baby hey what's happening so gary Tell me about the human condition and what's going to happen today.

All right.

I suppose in many ways, this is the specialist edition because we are talking about the science behind the things that that make us different, that make us special.

And that's

as a species makes us adaptable.

So, what makes us special?

I mean, which makes our species special.

Yeah.

Among all species of life on Earth.

I mean, humans have survived and thrived in just about every location, every climate on Earth.

Well, so far, that is.

Things are changing.

This adaptability has seen the human form take many different body shapes, sizes, blood types, and skin colors.

Yet, with all this uniqueness, we are 99.9% similar in our DNA.

9999.

Yes.

Yes.

Even more than 99.9, but go ahead.

Okay.

Now seems like a good time to understand a little more about the diversity and our diversity and adaptability through the lens of evolution and biology.

So if you would introduce our guest.

I will.

This is an old friend of mine

who left town town some years ago before COVID.

We hadn't heard back from him.

Well, maybe it wasn't as good a friend as you thought.

I'm thinking it.

You're saying it.

Professor Herman Puncer, welcome back to Star Talk, dude.

Hey, thanks for having me back.

So the last time you were here was like early COVID, EC.

EC.

EC, early COVID.

And all I remember is that you talked about zebra testicles.

That's all I remember.

It left an impression.

That's good.

That's good.

You'll have to dig that one up out of the archives.

So right now, you're a professor of evolutionary anthropology.

Ooh.

I love that.

That's great.

Ooh, ooh.

And global health at the Duke University's Global Health Institute.

You got your work cut out for you, dude.

I can tell you that right now.

Yeah.

It's a strange time to be in academia and public health.

There's a funny intersection at the moment.

Exactly.

Okay.

And you're a recognized researcher in human energetics.

I love it.

Human energetics and, of course, evolution, which is fundamental to that.

Author of a 2022 book, Burn.

And in 2025, Adaptable, How Your Unique Body Really Works and Why Biology Unites Us.

Cool.

Penguin Random House.

Yeah.

Interesting title.

Yeah.

So let me just say you left town and you didn't tell me you left town because you used to be right here.

Were you at NYU?

Where were you?

I was at Hunter College College in the Grad Center and

that's right.

That's right.

And coming over across town to hang out at the AMNH occasionally with some of our mutual friends.

Yeah, yeah.

We're here in my office now at AMH, American Museum of Natural History, for those who just tuned in.

So

can we think of our adaptability

as some kind of superpower distinguishing us from all other animals on earth?

Because I've thought long and hard, what is special about we can't fly, we don't run fast, almost everything that would kill us in the wild is because the other creature is better at it than we are.

So, to think of our adaptability as a unique feature of being human, I got to hear more from you on that.

And by the way,

what are we doing here?

Seeing as though every other animal is better at something than we are, right?

How do we get it?

They got sharper teeth, they got better eyes.

They run faster.

They can take to the skies.

They can swim.

They can breathe water.

Like, what the hell?

Breathe water.

Yeah.

In the pantheon of superheroes, like, we suck.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, we're the, we're the superhero that can, we're the shifters, you know, that change, the shape shifters, right?

We, uh, we can be successful anywhere on the planet because we've got this.

crazy kind of dual inheritance that we talk about.

We have all these cultural things that we inherit from generation to generation about how to survive in different environments.

We've got this body that's very, we might be generalists in a lot of ways, right?

We're good at a lot of different things.

Maybe we're not as good at sprinting as some animals, as good at climbing, but we can kind of do it all fairly well.

And we end up getting everywhere across the entire planet.

Think of another species.

I don't know if you could.

No, that's been as successful in as many climates.

Wait, wait, wait.

Herman, the bacteria in your gut are traveling with you.

That's true.

They are as parasites.

That's true.

And the mitochondria in ourselves are all humans as well.

Right.

Okay.

This was smart bacteria.

They knew what

who to bet on.

Well, you know, I wanted to call the book Protein Robot because I like to think of us as like these kind of damp RVs trundling along the earth, right?

With all of our microbiome on board, like passengers with us.

Damp RV.

Damn it.

That sounds hard to clean.

Yeah.

I'm not writing that over, right?

But you say in the subtitle of your book why our biology unites us

so where does that what are we to make of that subtitle yeah well so I don't know of any other species that has a sort of adaptability range that we do right everything from the ways that we learn how to make a living growing up because we have these different cultures that help us adapt to different environments to our physical characteristics that are a little bit different across the globe in different ways often as a sort of local adaptation to different contexts skin color is a great example of that body proportions are another example of that.

And so we are all of us expressions of this sort of shared common superpower that our species has, right?

That adaptability is actually the expression of this, you know, the diversity is the expression of the adaptability.

And so, you know, I think rather than thinking about it as dividing us, it actually is showing our common origins in a way.

Yeah,

I'm just going to let you know, you keep talking about diversity, and some people are going to come after you, buddy.

Well, you know, man, I wanted to write this book.

When I was writing this book, okay, it was 2022, 2023.

And I thought, well, maybe this whole discussion about, you know, maybe the sort of universe-wide discussion about diversity and all those debates are going to be passe by the time the book's out.

And turns out, no,

we're still very much talking about all this stuff.

And so

I'm glad it came out when it did.

I think, you know, the goal is to have it be the sort of common ground.

You know, I want people to understand how the bodies work, why we're all all different, how diversity happens, and have it be a kind of common ground that we can talk about these kind of big, often polarizing ideas and discussions with

a common set of facts, a common evidence base.

You have your work cut out ahead of you because everything you're saying that unites us, our culture uses to divide us.

So you got some work cut out to you to change the definition of diversity in that way.

Just letting you know.

So, Herman, is there such a thing as a textbook average human?

And what are the dangers if we start to perpetuate such a thought process?

Yeah.

So no, there's not, right?

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Arithmetically, there has to be an average.

So your question should have asked, is there a normal person?

Well, what's normal?

Right, exactly.

That's a different thing.

There's always an average.

You can always take an average.

But it's well, but here's so.

Here's what I would say about that, Neil.

Yeah.

To push back a little is

and to agree with Gary, which I'm not sure if that's a good idea yet or not.

You don't have permission to agree with Gary and disagree with Gary.

We'll say, we've still got a white to go.

Yeah.

You know, my introduction to human diversity, well, began an undergraduate in my coursework, but my actual physical hands-on introduction to this was dissecting a human, right?

And did you?

Yeah, we were in medical school.

I didn't go to medical school, but I took the medical school gross anatomy class at Harvard.

And so it was me and 50 aspiring doctors, you know, disassembling a person on these big dissection tables.

And every day you show up and you get your tools out of a little case and you start taking a person apart.

And, you know, three months and 160 pounds of human later, you've seen everything.

I know a couple guys in Staten Island who do that for different reasons.

Yeah, but you don't pay attention to the nuanced differences.

That's what I want to know.

But when you finally, you know, what you learn very quickly, and the reason, you know, you might think, like, why do we bother doing that?

It's It's kind of an old-fashioned way to do science or to learn medicine.

But the reason you do it is that you immediately learn that, you know, that the branching of arteries through your torso as it comes out from your aorta and starts to feed all your organs, that set of branch, that pattern of branching is not the same for everybody.

And in fact, you know, often you find.

a branching pattern in the person that you're dissecting that doesn't match any of the variants shown in your dissecting text, right?

And that the nerves are the same way.

And, you know, that's just the stuff you can see with your naked eyes, right?

Our diversity is down to the core.

And so I would say, if you think about, if you think about like a parts list for humans, right?

Maybe it's, I'd be curious to think about this, but maybe it's 30,000 different parts that all kind of come together into your, to make you up.

I would bet that just in the same way that there's like never been a perfect March madness bracket, there is no human that all the pieces match a textbook dissector piece for piece because you might be right, you might be similar to the dissector on 99% of them, but there's 1% where you differ and there'll be a different 1% that I differ, et cetera, et cetera.

So the mathematical way to say what you just did is whatever average you might obtain, it's not useful because the variance is so high on that average.

Yeah.

Because think about it.

I mean, right?

You can say an average and you look for someone who matches the average and no one does because everyone is scattered around to the left and right of the average on the chart.

So, okay.

I'm with you on that.

How should that inform us on a sociological level?

Yeah.

So, you know, once you start to appreciate how diversity, what it looks like, that it's sort of multi-dimensional, it's not just, you know, for example, skin color in this country is historically used to divide us right into different categories.

And if you're black or you're white, you're thought about you're in this category or that category.

If you really really understand human diversity, you realize that there are sort of subtle differences across all these different modalities, you know, in terms of the way our cardiovascular systems work, digestive systems, skin, of course, sure, nervous systems, all of it.

There aren't sort of neat categories that we can box people into.

And I think it forces us to kind of...

to see diversity the way that it is, which is, again, this sort of individualized expression of these common forces, right?

So it's an expression of our humanness, right?

Rather than, oh, you're in this box and I'm in this box and we can kind of caricature it and pretend that we know something about you just because we put you in this particular box.

That's not actually how the body works or how diversity works.

So to that point, I read a pretty cool paper out of, I forget which part of Harvard, but was the basis for the

predicate, there's no such thing as race and that race is a completely manufactured construct.

And it was based on what you just said, that which is there's no box in which you can put enough people to say, this is what white is or this is what black is.

But the thing that I didn't really understand was how the

scientists from Korea had more in common with one of the scientists from the Netherlands than one of the other scientists from the Netherlands on a biological level.

Like that was in the paper too.

That was part of it, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So, I mean, it depends on what they're measuring, if they're measuring genetic differences or that kind of thing.

But take this, here's a kind of toy example, but it's a real biological phenomenon, blood types, okay?

ABO blood type, right?

So I don't know if you know if you're type A or type B or type O, whatever it is.

All of us in this four, the four of us sitting here might have all the same blood type, right?

Maybe we're all type A.

And that would mean that we have the same genetic variant.

And in that way, in that particular locus, that gene, we're all more similar to each other than other people who have type B blood.

All right.

So in that measure, we're all a group and we're all different from somebody else.

If we go by skin color, the amount of melanin in our skin, right?

Well, there's differences in that, right?

Who has more melanin, who doesn't have as much melanin?

And that might break us down differently.

So there's an unlimited number of boxes that you could.

Exactly.

And not only that, but there aren't even hard edges on the boxes because if you look at something like skin color, in this country, we often put people into sort of black or white, but of course, skin color is everything in between two, right?

So, especially if you look globally, there's no, you know, you get everything from pretty dark because you have a lot of melanin in your skin to very light because you have very little, and there's everything in between.

So, there's no hard edge where you say, okay, now I stopped this category and I'm into that category.

And of course, President Obama could have legitimately been declared as a white president because he's exactly half white, but by his european mother right right yeah but instead we call them a black president because of the social norms he's exactly half black right right yeah so so i in in one of my books i forgot which he imagined him running for president in an african country as the white guy as the white guy that's hilarious i know

that is so funny yeah

i mean historically it's even crazier like there were people who you know groups who now we consider as sort of obviously white in the u.s people from Ireland, people from Italy, who in the late 1800s would have been considered black.

Yeah.

Yes.

They weren't white until the powers that be, that are because it's a socially constructed power move to make these groups until the powers that be decided that they were in the white group that they became white.

Until they felt outnumbered.

Yeah.

They're like, we need some help.

How do you guys like to be white?

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This is Star Talk with Neil deGrasse Tyson.

So, Mohamed, if we look at the latitudes here on Earth, how have humans adapted in terms of their biology to survive at these different latitudes?

Yeah, there's a so that brings up an important point to start with, which is that a lot of the variation that we see in head, shape, size, all the different physical characteristics we see.

This is all the rage in the late 1800s was how long versus how wide your head.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, if you're dolichocephalic or brachiocephalic or all these things.

Yeah, I remember that.

So almost all of those kind of variations are just noise and slosh and genetic mutation that's tolerated because there's no strong selection to get rid of it, right?

So a lot of the variation that we see, the superficial variation, a lot of that is just sort of tolerated noise.

Now, that said, there are cases where you have a strong enough selection pressure that's...

that's localized and strong enough and long-lasting for generations and generations that you get local adaptation to a particular circumstance or particular pressure.

So latitude's a great one.

So I have to clarify something here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Herman.

When you say adaptation, you mean those who don't have the variation die so they don't propagate their genes.

So no organism adapts.

You're talking about the ensemble

statistics of a generation where only some that happen to have the variation walk through the proscenium into this next world where they can survive better.

Yeah, I just add to that that you can, one way to sort of lose that game is to die.

The other way to lose that game is to not have any kids or not have as many as you're next.

You're sending your DNA into the future.

Right.

Yeah, gotcha.

Gotcha.

Okay, pick it up.

Sorry.

So latitude's a great example of a pressure that's stable over time.

You know, the Earth has been spinning on the same.

You know, the equator has been the equator for a long, long time, and it's been hot at the equator for a long, long time and colder towards the poles.

And so, that heat differential, for example, has shaped body shape, size, and proportions.

We see populations near the equator that are on average tend to be taller, thinner.

People, populations near the poles tend to be a bit stockier and heavier.

And that's because you want to get rid of heat if you're in a hot environment at the equator all the time.

You want to hold on to your heat if you are towards the poles.

So, the physics of that, I think we have an explainer on it, where if you are rounder,

you are better insulated against losing heat because how are you going to lose heat?

Through your skin.

Through your skin.

Basically.

So round you are.

Yeah.

And if you ever see a pigeon in the winter, they puff up.

They puff up.

They're very round.

Or cats.

That too.

Cats do the same thing.

Yeah, yeah.

They make themselves round

when they're cold.

And we do that too.

We'll bring our arms in.

The fur and the feathers come up and they trap a layer of air.

That helps too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But also try to round themselves.

Whereas in the summer, the cat is all esplajao on the pavement.

That's so true.

And it's so funny.

When you look at lions, they lay stretched.

Yeah.

But when your cat is cold and they're very similar,

they wrap up.

Yeah, yeah.

So, okay.

So I just wanted to make sure that the listener got the physics of what you just implied.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I got it.

So there's a...

Fun field story there, a piece of my research that's kind of touched on this in a way I wasn't expecting.

We do research in northern Kenya.

There's a population there.

They're called the Dasnich.

They live with their goats and camels and cattle.

It's a pastoralist group.

They're like the Maasai.

You might have heard of the Maasai.

It's a similar kind of population.

And we started to work there in 2017.

And we were talking to one of the NGOs, the charities that had set up shop in this little village called Illeret.

It was this German charity.

We're talking to the head of the charity and because we wanted to get a sort of health and nutrition research project started.

We thought we should talk to people who have been doing health and nutrition sort of outreach.

And he said, oh, it's terrible.

It's terrible here.

Everybody, all the kids, you know, 70% of the kids are malnourished here.

And we thought, oh my gosh, that is really, that is terrible.

And so we kind of thought about that and kept that in our minds.

And as we're kind of visiting that village and the surrounding villages, it doesn't square, though, with what we're seeing because these kids don't look malnourished.

These kids are running around, happy, laughing, you know, families are big.

People look healthy.

And so we thought if they say that they're malnourished, then that's important to know, but that seems counterintuitive based on just interacting with this population.

Fast forward a couple of years, we've got ourselves a big data set on thousands of children who've been measured from the day they're born, every few months, to the time they're five or six years old.

And what you can see when you look at these kids' heights and weights is that they're born around the same size as all the other kids in the world.

And then they start to, their weight starts to fall off a little bit, but their height

grows fast, right?

So they're, by the time they're three, four years old, kids in this population are taller than three or four year olds in most of the rest of the world because they have been adapted.

That population has been adapted to be tall and thin.

And so this German charity was looking at the ratio of weight, which was the same as everywhere else, maybe a little bit low, to height, which was tall because they were adapted to be tall.

That ratio looked bad.

It made them look malnourished, too thin, too light.

They're just skinny.

They're just skinny, but they're built.

They're actually, they are built to be skinny.

So once again,

there's a European bias brought into Africa to pass judgment on who's there.

Yeah, well, that'll be obvious.

So had the Kenyan anthropologists gone to Germany, they would say, y'all some fat ass folk.

Right.

Too much brats.

Too many brats, guys.

Got cut back.

Yeah.

But I mean,

it even goes further because the folks from Nairobi who I was working with, those folks from Nairobi aren't part of that ethnic group.

They don't share that same, you know, to the same extent, that same kind of tall, thin bodybuild.

Right.

And so I'm actually more similar to my Nairobi colleagues, even though our skin colors are different on that dimension, than either of us are to this northern Kenyan population that's tall and thin.

Right.

So like the whole, to even begin by using the kind of American racial categorization to try to make sense of what's going on there, you're sunk from

the beginning.

It's far-y.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Isn't there an example of adaptability with people in the Andes and then across in the Himalayas, they're living at a similar altitude, but one of them will suffer altitude sickness, one of them won't.

Why?

Yeah.

What's up with that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So people, humans have gone into the high altitude parts of the world.

Three big examples of this.

The Ethiopian plateau, and those populations aren't well studied, so we don't know a whole lot about that physiology.

The Himalaya, right, Tibet and Nepal, and that's been well studied.

We know a lot about that.

And the Andes in South America.

And these are all independent evolutionary forays into high altitude.

And the problem is you don't have any oxygen up there.

The air is still 21% oxygen, but the air pressure is so low.

that there just aren't as many molecules of oxygen available for you to get into your bloodstream.

And so everybody's oxygen starved at these high, high altitudes.

And so there have been independent evolutionary changes, adaptations to this same,

this real challenge of getting enough oxygen.

In

the Himalayas, there is an allele that helps determine how much red blood cells you make.

So, okay, let me back up.

Red blood cells are the cell that carries oxygen.

You need that.

And they have a tough job at altitude because there isn't enough oxygen to go around.

And so what most people do, and most populations do at altitude, you make a lot more red blood cells.

Your body responds to the oxygen debt by making more red blood cells.

And that's good for a while, but it makes your blood thicker and can lead to altitude sickness.

And we still see a lot of altitude sickness in the Andes, for example.

They haven't kind of, their bodies haven't figured out how to deal with that.

In the Himalaya, they don't have this issue of altitude sickness.

Why not?

Because it was an allele that has been gone to fixation.

It's completely the norm, the norm genetic variant in the Himalaya that helps them deal with oxygen debt without overproducing red blood cells.

They produce enough to keep the oxygen going, but not overproduce it and get sick.

They also have bigger lungs.

They have a bigger spleen, which is this reserved red blood cell tank that we all carry around.

So there's a whole bunch of adaptations that go to try to get enough oxygen in.

So where do the Neanders fit into that particular scenario in the Himalayas?

Yeah, I wondered if you wanted to go there.

So

Let's do it.

Call them out.

So the first thing you have to understand is that humans historically have slept with anything that they encounter.

Don't look at me and say that.

And so humans, right?

Homo sapiens, we evolve in Africa about 300,000 years ago.

And as we sort of become so successful, so adaptable,

our superpower at full display, we get into Europe, we interact with Neanderthals there.

What do we do?

We admix with them to use the sterile scientific term, and we have children.

And we can still see the genetic evidence of that today.

A quick question I have to slip in there.

You said 300,000 years ago, we come out of Africa, get into Europe, and admix with the Neanderthal implies Neanderthals either left Africa earlier or evolved as Neanderthal in Europe.

Yes.

Now, we know from DNA testing that pure Africans have zero Neanderthal DNA.

So there must have been some deep European origins of the Neanderthal.

Is that correct?

Yeah, that's right.

Whether it's deeply in Europe or sort of into the Near East is much debated.

But yeah, it's outside of Africa.

So, you know, humans and Neanderthals, of course, have a common ancestor about 600,000 years ago.

Those two branches go their separate ways, ours in Africa, theirs in the Near East and Europe.

And at some point, they become what we would consider to be the Neanderthal gene pool.

And when our branch comes back in and oversect and intersects with them again, we have these matings and this admixture.

And so we are fertile with each other because we have the same common ancestor, even though

it's such a recent one down

from the line.

And an interesting fact that I discovered in my own work for Starry Messenger, that book, was we grew up with the archetype of this stupid backward Neanderthal.

Yeah.

The caveman that knows nothing.

That never stopped dragging its knuckles.

Then we find out that black Africans have no Neanderthal blood, yet there's admixtures in current European white people.

And until then,

did papers, research papers, start saying

how creative and inventive Neanderthals were.

There was a complete shift in the early 1990s.

Herman, am I right here?

Herman.

Talk to me, Herman.

Yeah, I mean, that's one retelling.

I think that's pretty, that's fair to the history of what happened there.

I think there was already a reimagining of what Neanderthals were like before that.

That's what I saw.

Even Gary Larson was full in on the backward Neanderthals.

Not to mention the Geico guys.

Yeah.

I would say that populations outside of Africa all have a little bit of Neanderthal in them because as we kind of get out of Africa into the Near East and those intermate, those matings happen, those genes kind of get washed to every population that's kind of downstream of that, right?

So Asians, Native Americans will all have a little bit of Neanderthal in them left over from that kind of crossing event that happens in the Near East and Europe.

That makes sense because it's, you know, those were the crossroads.

All those areas outside of Africa were actually the crossroads for trap for human travel.

So it kind of makes sense.

Yeah.

So there's this great example of another kind of discovery from ancient genome.

But by the way, all this is mind-blowing stuff.

It is, it is from DNA that we've gotten out of fossils, right?

Which is sort of that's that's mind-blowing.

Completely.

Completely.

And we discovered a whole new species of human ancestor or human relative, I should say, that's Neanderthal-like

in Asia called the Denisovans.

Oh, I forgot about that.

No one heard about that.

I didn't know anything about that.

So the Denisovans, were they contemporary with the Neanderthal?

Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

Kind of Denisovans go one way, humans and Neanderthals the other way.

And then Neanderthals and humans split a little bit later.

So they're even a kind of more distant relative of us in a way.

So just I'd like, because I'd like it knowing, what's the etymology of Neanderthal and the etymology of Denisovans?

Denisovans.

Denisovans.

So Neanderthals are so named because those initial fossils were found in the Neander Valley.

And in German, Valley is Tal.

So it's Neanderthal.

Oh.

And that's why it's Neanderthal and not Neanderthal, because T-H-A-L is tall in German.

That's if you want to get pedantic.

Don't we all like that?

America.

We pronounce it how we want.

That's right.

That's right.

That's fair.

And then

don't encourage him.

Don't encourage him.

And then

Denisovans are found that the site is, the original site is Denisova.

It's a Denisova cave in Siberia somewhere, I believe.

Okay.

Yeah.

And they had just a couple finger bones.

And those aren't really diagnostic.

You can't figure out what species it is just from the bone, from the morphology, the shape of the bones.

But they drilled into it, got the DNA out, and go, holy, this is a whole other group.

This isn't Neanderthals and it's not Homo sapiens.

It's something else.

And that was the discovery that there is this unappreciated species that we didn't even know about.

So they got the DNA from the bone marrow?

Any of your bone material will have cells in it.

So yeah, that's not just the marrow, but any of it.

Why does DNA last that long?

It's a pretty delicate molecule, isn't it?

It doesn't last kind of fully intact.

So your DNA, if you stretch it, if you took all the DNA in your body and you stretched it out, you'd be dead.

That's the first thing you should know.

But second of all, it would get to like the moon and back or something like that, all your DNA stretched out.

Then we discovered that not only is there this other species of human relative, but there's evidence of mating with them as well.

So it wasn't just Neanderthals.

It was also Denisovans.

And then you find out that this gene variant that has been so key to the success of Himalayan groups, where did it come from?

It came from Denisovans.

Wow.

So, you know, so there were these mating events with Denisovans.

That gene variant ends up in the human gene pool sloshed around.

Doesn't give you any advantage at sea level, you know.

Only when those populations begin to go up at high altitude does it turn out, oh, by the way, that variant's actually really good at high altitude.

And then it becomes the variant that everybody has because of the selective process of reproduction and survival.

So let me ask you this, just for the sake of people being able to visualize what we're talking about,

because it seems like you're talking about different species.

But what I'd like is if you were to take pictures of our DNA and superimpose them, what would that look like and how alike or different would we be?

So between us and the recent ancestors.

So Denisovans, Neanderthal, Homo sapien, and then you take those pictures, you kind of superimpose them.

What would it look like?

Yeah, so this is exactly what we do when we get the genetics to begin with and try to make sense of it.

The best way to picture it is like a tree.

Right.

So imagine a tree where all the branches are very hard and clustered very tightly around the crown.

that is the entirety of the human species over here and then there's a branch that comes off real low and ends up over here somewhere that's the Neanderthal branch and then it's like you discovered oh my gosh I didn't look closely enough there's a branch that's even lower and goes out even a bit further and that's the Denisovan branch okay right and so if you were to overlay the A's T's C's and G's of the genome on top of each other you'd find they're very very similar all of those individuals you have to really compare them at thousands and thousands of base pairs to sort of see that clustering, just because all mammals are pretty similar, all primates are real similar, right?

You know, and so all these human ancestors and relatives are real similar too.

All right, take me back to when we went from grunts to articulate speech.

Oh, that's a that's an amazing what's up with that.

That's very hard to know for sure.

You got Morgan Friedman on me.

What happened for us to have grunt versus speech?

Oh, yeah.

So the anatomy of that's pretty well known.

The anatomy of the vocal tract, for example, has changed, which allows us to have this sort of two-compartment vocal tract, right?

So your larynx is down here real low, and that gives you a vertical component to sort of shape the frequencies that come out of

your lungs as you make noise.

And then you have this horizontal component from the mouth, and those get shaped differently and give you all the AEIOU sounds.

So we know the anatomy of speech very well.

When that evolved,

right, that is really hard to know for sure.

And in fact, I don't think anybody knows for sure.

Well,

we know it had to be at least when

Homo sapiens made it with Neanderthals because somebody had to say, hey, girl, what's happening?

Bring your fine ass on over to this cave right here.

Let me holler at you.

Thank you, Chuck, for reenacting.

It's like we were there.

Yeah, it's almost like we were there.

Yeah.

They say time travel is not possible, but I don't know.

There you go.

Okay, so,

but I heard that our ability to form sounds, as you articulately described, the two-dimensionality, the frequency, and volume and texture of

our vocalizations, that this was a genetic defect, if you will, from whatever was going on in the grunting community.

There was some genetic alteration that changed it.

So, wait, this is, we all share this mutation?

Yeah, it's a mutation.

It's a mutation.

So, everybody else was like,

And then somebody was just like, oh, dear, you're so ghost.

My God.

Exactly.

What is it?

I mean, seriously, is this how we're going to communicate?

So we don't want to think of speech as

a mutation.

We want to think of it as an adaptation.

Ah, maybe there's no difference.

Yeah,

we want it to be a feature, not a bug.

A feature, exactly.

So all adaptations start off as mutations.

Oh.

Ah, there's another t-shirt.

So, you know, natural selection is the survival of the fittest, but mutation is the arrival of the fittest.

Oh!

Mitra!

Yo, that is dope.

Oh, another t-shirt.

We're in the middle of the arrival of the fittest.

You need variation, you need mutations for natural selection.

Just go, oh, yep, that's the one that's going to work here, and that one's not.

Right?

If there's no variation, if there's no mutation, there's no way for natural selection to happen.

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school.

Let's look at this situation of adaption, of

our environment.

Yep, the adaptation.

Adaption.

I did.

I know, I'm making them up as I go on.

You're embarrassing your fellow people.

It's our bloody language, but use it as we wish.

You're sitting next to me, you are not uttering adaption.

Oh, man, I'll see you after class, sir.

Okay, go.

So our adaption

is being forced to speed up because of the environments we're being pushed into, out of rural farming, into town cities, and cities in particular.

At a rapid rate, that is.

As a rapid rate.

But are we now being mismatched?

Are we being confronted with circumstances that, you know what, this body is evolved for this environment, not that environment?

I I think the proof is already evident that we are mismatched.

And I think it's more not the, I'm sorry, Herman, I'm answering.

No, no, no, no.

So Herman's going to

answer for that.

Chuck does that.

I do this sometimes.

I think it's more not the circumstance, but technology and the circumstance together.

So for instance, in disease, we have diseases now which are chronic and major.

But how long ago were they not, Herman?

Oh, that's, yeah.

So the populations I live with, hunter-gatherer groups and even farming groups that I work with today, they are heart disease-free, diabetes-free.

So, the things that we're going to die from, they're protected against.

And, of course, the flip side is the things that we're protected against because of antibiotics and vaccines and that kind of stuff really gets them.

But, you know, these lifestyle diseases were only an issue in the last couple hundred years.

Herman, if they're an isolated community,

that means there are no outside influences,

viruses, bacteria, other ailments that could

influence them until they meet someone from the outside,

such as yourself.

So,

how many Indigenous people have you killed with your

that's a lovely question, Neil?

I really appreciate you bringing that up.

See, at least he's blamed you and not the British, because normally I am go-to.

We're done blaming you guys, he's trying to blame somebody else here.

But, you know, so that

question raises a point that I think people get wrong all the time which is people think that they're that any human population is ever isolated that's never the case right i mean there are always interactions there's always gene flow and people flow and migration and movement so there are no isolated groups anymore even these groups that we work with who are hunting and gathering or farming it isn't that they don't interact with people who aren't just that they like to keep their their their old ways they're basically the pennsylvania dutch of africa okay no that's exactly it actually that's exactly what it's like they they live in a world that they interact with people all the the time, but they prefer to keep their own culture.

So you raise this issue about accelerated adaptation.

It's the brain, man, because we have our brains are born unfinished, right?

We learn, we've created this entire cultural inheritance that we each inherit and learn.

You know, it takes you 15, 20 years to learn it all so you could be a proper adult.

a functioning adult.

And so we have all this, and that cultural evolution can happen much faster than our biological evolution can.

So we have these sort of these two parallel tracks happening all the time.

It's a really fun thing about humans.

There was a study done in comparison on back in the day when there were bus drivers and conductors on board.

And

the health of the driver as opposed to the conductor, even though they go to the same place, they travel together all the time.

They breathe the same air.

They breathe the same air, they see the same people.

One is sedentary, the other is obviously mobile, stamping tickets and checking up and down on the levels of the bus.

These are situations now that we have not really been evolved to have a sedentary lifestyle.

You talk about the hunter-gatherers in Africa.

So what are the overall health implications for modern health now that we're finding ourselves mismatched with?

Yeah,

that was a seminal study in the 1950s showing that the drivers who sat all day ended up getting heart attacks at a kind of scary rate.

Their buddies who were walking up and down the aisles didn't,

had healthy hearts.

And so that was one of the early clues that physical activity, daily physical activity, is absolutely essential for keeping your heart healthy.

Well, why is that?

Well, because we've evolved for hundreds of thousands of years in an active lifestyle.

That's the way our bodies are built.

That's sort of the lifestyle our bodies expect.

So you've got paleo diets.

There's no way we're going back to a Paleolithic lifestyle.

No.

So what's our answer?

Well,

the London Busted is a great example, right?

Because you have the benefits of activity without having to

cause play as

a Neanderthal or something like that.

It's an example of how you can have physical activity in your daily life.

You know, you guys are New Yorkers.

You guys walk around the city and get lots of physical activity.

We meet our step minimum every day.

Right.

And it's

not just the steps.

The last study that came out about New Yorkers who tend to be thinner than most other places in the country.

It's the pace at which New Yorkers walk as well.

New Yorkers tend to walk much faster than any other place.

So the two together, the fact that they walk everywhere and they walk briskly is what makes.

We're in a hurry even when we don't need to be.

When we don't need to be.

There's a lovely study from the 70s by this husband and wife team.

They looked at the average walking pace of people down sidewalks and how big the city was.

They went all over the world to do this.

And the bigger, more dense your city is, the faster you walk.

Oh, cool.

Okay, that makes sense.

So, Herman, the history of anthropology, as applied properly or improperly on our species or on our populations, in almost every case led to some legislation, some laws related to those conclusions, be it to justify slavery,

be it to limit immigration.

So, is there a policy implication that your work would bring to the front that is either progressive or regressive in the history of this exercise?

I think it does have big societal sort of implications, right?

When we think about how the body works and we have a fluency in how our different systems work, we use that fluency with how our bodies work to understand diversity.

I think that absolutely it's going to.

And what it's going to do is it's going to inform

how we move ahead from you know the really old school ways of thinking about the body were very genetic determinist, right?

We move into the 1900s and even recent times, and it's very environmental, you know, it's all nurture in the nurture-nature debate.

And I think we're moving to a third period here where we're in a personalized era, right?

Whether it's personalized genetics or it's personalized ways of thinking about my health, right?

And if we personalized diet, even perhaps.

Personalized diet.

And if we leave that discussion just purely to the influencers or purely to, you know, the political class that doesn't have any fluency in how the body works or these sort of old school ideas about these sort of caricatures about our diversity, we're going to be in real trouble.

So I think that the book does kind of help inform those big discussions we're having right now.

Look, whether it's IQ, whether it's sex and gender, whether it's health and vaccines, whether it's, you know, all of these issues that are right, you know, in front of us today, they all fundamentally rest on how we understand how our bodies work and how our bodies work differently.

And so, you know, the book isn't trying to get anybody to, you know, I'm not trying to make anybody think like I think, but what I do want to have is people,

a common evidence base for us to have those discussions, a fluency that we can have these discussions usefully and meaningfully.

So I think there are societal implications.

I think the way that they shake out are going to be, hopefully, make it make things better for everybody.

And because of that, I'm cutting your funding.

That's it.

You no longer have a dime.

Yeah,

I would laugh harder if it was

so tragic.

I just say if it wasn't so true

if it weren't so tragic and true.

So Herman, thank you for returning to Star Talk.

Yes.

Oh my gosh.

We have a fun conversation, guys.

Thanks.

We miss you.

You have a unique combination of expertise that deeply informs what we care about here on Star Talk Special Edition.

So that means we want to sort of have access to you further going forward.

Hey, I'm always happy to be your evolutionary anthropologist on call.

I'm here.

Everybody,

nice to have you.

Now you say it, I want one.

Dude, delight to speak to you.

Thanks for enlightening us yet again.

Thank you.

All right.

And of course, we're all going to look for your book, Adaptable, How Your Unique Body Really Works and Why Biology Unites Us.

All right.

The word unite is something we need today.

So thank you for being a part of that conversation.

This has been Star Talk Special Edition.

Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist.

As always, keep looking up.