Cosmic Queries – Proving Einstein Right

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Speaker 3 Hey, Star Talkians, Neil here. You're about to listen to an episode specially drawn from our archives to serve your cosmic curiosities.
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Speaker 3 Welcome to Star Talk,

Speaker 3 your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide.

Speaker 3 Star Talk begins right now.

Speaker 3 This is Star Talk. I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist.
And today's topic is proving einstein right

Speaker 3 chuck i needed you for this one because yeah you're a man you're the man i don't know how you need me because i i never knew einstein was wrong

Speaker 3 so i'm trying to figure out

Speaker 3 where where's the controversy where's the controversy well to talk about that controversy i'm bringing a friend and longtime colleague jim gates jim welcome to star talk well deal it's good to be back in the presence of a star don't don't uh James, please, it's okay.

Speaker 4 Thank you.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

Speaker 3 I appreciate you.

Speaker 3 Oh, we'll leave that one at that. We're not warranted.

Speaker 3 So, Jim, you've been at this for a long time.

Speaker 3 Well, you've been an Einstein fan for sure, but a theoretical physicist, and you're director for the Center for Theoretical Physics at Brown University, Providence, Rhode Island. And that's a title.

Speaker 3 How long have you been doing that?

Speaker 4 So when I was 66, Neil, I was recruited from the university of maryland to brown i went around telling my friends uh asking friends why why do you think they want an old car

Speaker 3 no it's not the age it's the mileage okay this is clear we know this

Speaker 3 well uh one of my friends said jim you're not an old car you're an antique car oh oh there you go the preservable antique they they hold their value

Speaker 5 I'm gonna go one better than your friend, James. You are vintage, my friend.

Speaker 3 You are vintage. Vintage.

Speaker 4 Vintage is vintage gets you even more money than antique has okay well well i i i i switched after 33 years at my previous uh university came here and where was the previous university university of maryland college park wow and do they are you still on speaking terms because i i would be kind of angry after 33 years that you just up and leave me just leave our marriage after 33 years well i don't know if marriage is the right analogy

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 4 independent of debating that particular,

Speaker 4 we did part on good terms. Excellent.

Speaker 4 In fact, I'm an emeritus professor there.

Speaker 4 And as an emeritus professor, I have taught two consecutive years courses on public policy.

Speaker 3 Nice. Evening courses.
Yep.

Speaker 4 So I'm on good terms.

Speaker 3 So if I remember correctly, you were on Obama's

Speaker 3 Advisory Council for Science and Technology, right?

Speaker 4 That's exactly right, Neil. I served seven years on the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology.
PCAS, the acronym.

Speaker 3 PCAST. That's right.
That's right. So, but you weren't in the current administration, they didn't invite you back in there, huh?

Speaker 4 I thought we were going to try to keep it.

Speaker 3 Okay, I'm just wondering.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 3 We'll leave it at that. So also, that's all right.

Speaker 5 I was invited to be on this current administration's advisory council on writing jokes about technology.

Speaker 3 There you go.

Speaker 3 So if you're director of the center, that's not necessarily an academic title, that's a job title. So you're also professor of physics.

Speaker 4 Indeed, I'm an endowed professor here at Brown University. The endowment is the Ford, I'm the so-called Ford professor of physics.
I'm also an affiliate mathematics professor.

Speaker 4 And on top of that, I'm a faculty fellow at the Watson Institute for Public Affairs and International Affairs.

Speaker 3 Wow, Excellent. Excellent.
Okay.

Speaker 4 Nice stuff.

Speaker 3 So you'd like, we should, we should bring you back for seven other excuses,

Speaker 3 seven other reasons. Forget the theoretical physics.
We got some policy we got to figure out here.

Speaker 3 So what we're going to do is we're going to structure this program.

Speaker 3 We're going to spend the first segment just, you know, talking about why was Einstein proved right or why did he need to be proved right. And then we'll go to Q ⁇ A.

Speaker 3 We go to go to our Cosmic Queries. And Chuck, you got Cosmic Queries for section two and three?

Speaker 5 I have the questions right here. And I have to say, these are some, man, people are excited that you're here, Professor.
They are excited that you're here.

Speaker 5 We've got some great questions.

Speaker 3 There's no one that triggers more questions than Einstein and relativity. And we got the man for it.

Speaker 4 Well, I would say Einstein, relativity, and Tyson.

Speaker 3 And what?

Speaker 4 And Tyson.

Speaker 4 Okay, right on.

Speaker 3 All right, so Jim, you published a book in 2019 called Proving Einstein Right. And let me me get the full title, The Daring Expeditions That Changed How We Look at the Universe.
Sure.

Speaker 3 And do you have a co-author who was there?

Speaker 4 I do have a wonderful co-author. Her name is Kathy Pelletier.
She lives in Alagosh, Maine, which is just right across Walking from Canada. And this book is not what people expected.
Usually,

Speaker 4 you know, Neil, your first book, as I recall, was partly autobiographical, right?

Speaker 3 Well, that was one of my first, my

Speaker 3 fourth book, yeah.

Speaker 4 Okay, fourth. So, what I wanted to do with this was to do something I had never seen done before with physicists.

Speaker 4 Usually, people talk about the wonder and the majesty of looking at nature and the struggle and what have you, but what I wanted to do, and I had wanted to do this for a decade, is to write a book about the interior lives of the people who do the science.

Speaker 4 And so this book is actually dedicated to eight astronomers and Albert Einstein.

Speaker 4 And we, yes, we tell the scientific story, but what we really want to do is get inside of their heads and tell the story of what they were feeling as they went through this almost decade-long struggle.

Speaker 4 So the book surprises people.

Speaker 3 Okay, so the book is published in 2019. And if I remember my history, that's basically the centennial of this big experiment that showed that Einstein was right.

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 3 But let me back up a little bit. So

Speaker 3 most people, I mean, physicists know Einstein for both, for many things, of course, but for special relativity and general relativity.

Speaker 3 I think often when people think of Einstein, they think of the effects of sort of ordinary relativity, like time dilation

Speaker 3 and this sort of thing. So that would all happen in 1905.

Speaker 4 That's correct.

Speaker 3 So why, if that's all happened and it worked and it was, you know, it was...

Speaker 3 smoking effective at explaining our understanding of the universe, why didn't everybody say, yeah, Einstein's the man?

Speaker 3 Why did it have to wait another 10 years for them to prove some other thing that he did?

Speaker 4 So let me talk about Einstein in 1905. And thank you for giving me this opening.

Speaker 4 As you know, Neil, in 2005, there was the so-called Einstein Year of Physics, and there were celebrations all over the world. I gave 37 talks on six continents on Einstein in that year.

Speaker 3 I thought there were only five continents.

Speaker 3 How many do you know?

Speaker 3 No, I guess there were seven. I get my numbers.

Speaker 4 I thank you.

Speaker 3 You left out Antarctica. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 4 That because that's the one I've never been to.

Speaker 3 But the penguins will welcome you with open arms

Speaker 5 and happy feet.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 4 But the point was, yes, you're right, Neil. In 1905, he came up with some amazing things about space and time and how they bend and warp and what have you.

Speaker 4 But do you know that in 1907, he was still in the patent office?

Speaker 4 People think that as soon as he came up with his wonderful theories, the world beat a path to his door saying, Hosea, Hosea, you know, whatever. But no, no, no, no, that's not what happened.

Speaker 3 It's Hosanna.

Speaker 3 Wait, Hosea.

Speaker 5 yeah jose is the prophet but hosanna hosanna is the praise but i we knew what you meant

Speaker 4 well this is what happens when you go off script guys sorry but anyhow but i'm sorry no no but you're right uh but but the point was that he did this great piece of work but it took two years for the physics community to recognize what he had done wow While he was in that patent office still trying to figure out how to get a job as a physics professor, he looked out the window one day and he saw some workmen on a roof.

Speaker 4 And he had this sort of story coming to him that if the guy, one of the guys fell, he wouldn't feel his weight. And so that started Einstein thinking about gravity.

Speaker 3 He's thinking of the death of someone working on a roof next door. I did not know this.

Speaker 4 Well, not the actual death, but the process that would lead to it.

Speaker 5 Just his fall to imminent death.

Speaker 3 That's right. That's right.
Just the imminent fall. Okay.
I did know Einstein had this morbid side of him. Yes.

Speaker 5 And so

Speaker 5 let me just say I totally get it because I think about the death of the guy that blows that leaf blower outside my bedroom window every Saturday morning. So

Speaker 4 and so Einstar started thinking about gravity. And by

Speaker 4 so this is like an in fact, he calls this the happiest thought of his life.

Speaker 3 Wait, wait, so wait, so Jim, this is like Newton's apple moment. Yes.
He sees the apple falling. And then he sees the moon.
And then there's a, there is a, there's a Eureka moment in there.

Speaker 4 And that's what happened with Einstein in 1907.

Speaker 4 So the thing that's curious about Einstein is although people think about him as this mathematical genius, every time he did something, he actually had to learn more mathematics.

Speaker 4 So he didn't actually have the mathematics to realize what his intuition was. And he didn't get it right until 1915 or 16.

Speaker 3 You know, Jim, that happens to me all the time. I have thoughts I have to invent new math to, you know,

Speaker 3 that's just

Speaker 3 a thing.

Speaker 4 Well, you know, some of us actually do that, Neil.

Speaker 4 That's another

Speaker 3 whole story, and I'll tell you about that one later.

Speaker 4 But anyhow, so he had this idea that took him almost a decade to get it down to the mathematics.

Speaker 4 And when he finished it, it was the theory of general relativity. It's the piece of thing that tells us that there was a Big Bang.

Speaker 4 It's the piece of mathematics that lets us know we live in a universe that is 13.8 billion years old. And so that came from that 1917 epiphany.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 3 I mean 1907.

Speaker 4 1907.

Speaker 3 Right, right, right, right.

Speaker 4 Now, now remember, it's all math. It's all math.

Speaker 4 So if it's all math, how do you know he got it right?

Speaker 3 Right, just because the math works doesn't mean it has to correspond to any objective reality.

Speaker 4 Exactly. And so when he finally

Speaker 4 gets his discussion together. In fact, even before he gets the right answer, he starts talking about it.
He starts giving talks about it.

Speaker 4 And so very early on, astronomers realize, well, he realizes first, that astronomers would be critical to try to prove that his math is actually, as you said, Neil, something that happens in the real world.

Speaker 4 And he begins it by talking to this German astronomer named Irving Findlay Feundlich.

Speaker 3 I never heard it again.

Speaker 3 No one's ever heard of it again.

Speaker 3 If I ever met someone named irving fenley voinlich

Speaker 4 yes i'd remember that i think i'm pretty sure well well i have sent uh for your program i've sent some photographs of all the people that we're going to talk about that's the first guy that einstein starts talking to seriously as you know i have a way to prove my man

Speaker 4 and he first starts saying if you look at starlights could you show that starlight bends when it passes near uh near

Speaker 4 Jupiter and the astronomer says you know nah that doesn't quite work then he starts asking questions about, but suppose we were looking at the night sky in the morning or early morning or late afternoon.

Speaker 4 Could we see bending starlight around perhaps Venus or something? And the guy says, you know, the astronomers come back, no, no, that won't work. And so finally,

Speaker 4 by this set of discussions with Freundi, he hits upon the idea that if you could watch starlight during an eclipse,

Speaker 4 you might be able to see the light being bent by the sun.

Speaker 3 Because you can't otherwise see a star in broad daylight. Exactly.

Speaker 4 So, you know, it's a very special circumstance. So that starts the race.

Speaker 3 Okay, so this bending of starlight would have been the first experimental verification of his general theory of relativity. Yes.

Speaker 3 And okay, and so now,

Speaker 3 so what year did that happen? Was that coming?

Speaker 4 These conversations around 1912 or so that he starts telling other people about these ideas.

Speaker 3 Okay, and that's how you get the creativity of other people to help you figure out how to make it work.

Speaker 4 Bingo, and that's what our book is about. It's about the other people.
It's not really about Einstein.

Speaker 3 Okay, so what's all this we hear about his wife possibly being a big engine to his creativity?

Speaker 4 A lot of people have, well, there's this one book, Einstein's Wife, I think of the title. There are a lot of people who have posited that as

Speaker 4 having been important.

Speaker 4 But from my reading of the history, She was certainly his partner as he was working through in Bern as a poor uh patent examiner trying to do physics she was certainly a partner there so bern the city in germany bern the city in switzerland oh switzerland excuse me right right he was so she certainly was his partner there but in the actual settling of the special theory of relativity from and i've i've read over a dozen books trying to get this straight in my own head the preponderance of evidence is that he worked it out with a friend of his on a train ride on a tram ride thinking about the clock tower in the city of berg so

Speaker 3 i mean so it's a fantastic story

Speaker 3 so i'm what you're saying here jim is had einstein been a loner and not traveled anywhere he wouldn't have come up with any of his ideas

Speaker 3 that's

Speaker 3 i mean

Speaker 3 how much life exposure is the right amount to fully realize your your your creativity that can be expressed i tell people all the time that being a scientist means that you swim in a sea of information, and that information comes from your colleagues.

Speaker 4 And so you cannot be, I mean, I know the archetype, stereotyped view is that as a scientist, you go off in the corner and you sort of think big thoughts. But that's not what actually happens.

Speaker 4 I've lived this life for almost for over 30 years and you are constantly in conversation with your colleagues and you use them to hone and to refine your thoughts and distill your thoughts and curate your thoughts.

Speaker 3 So Jim, the active word there is that you are swimming in these influences, not drowning in the influences. I was going to say, yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 So that's where, that's why I, with Kathy Pelletier, we wanted to talk about these people that basically were using what Einstein inspired them to do, but to swim towards this discovery of whether his math was an accurate description of nature.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 3 Do you you think Einstein had any doubts about whether it was all true?

Speaker 4 From my reading, no.

Speaker 4 He sort of says things like,

Speaker 4 if the theory of general relativity had failed to receive experimental and observation support, that he would have felt sorry for the good Lord.

Speaker 3 Because that was a really brilliant idea. Right.

Speaker 3 Which is kind of say, a kind of way of saying, like, I'm smarter than god so yeah it definitely says that yeah no it doesn't it really says no no jim jim you're lying jim no i'm not lying

Speaker 4 if you read a lot about einstein you find out he's a very very complicated character and with respect and if chuck since you brought up the issue of god okay

Speaker 5 and and you did bring it up I did yeah I mean to me when somebody says that statement it kind of sounds like you know I'm smarter than God no no no but you see Einstein's although you can interpret that statement that way, that's not really what Einstein felt.

Speaker 4 Because, okay, in fact,

Speaker 4 he talks also about the illimitable spirit, that is a spirit without limits. So it's clear that if you can use a phrase like that, you're not putting yourself above such an entity.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 5 All right. That's a very good point.

Speaker 3 He didn't use that phrase in that sentence, though, but okay.

Speaker 4 Not in that sentence.

Speaker 3 In that moment, he felt badass, is all I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 It's not, but yeah.

Speaker 3 Because it is, you know, Jim, before we go into the second segment and solicit our, our cosmic queries, just

Speaker 3 give me a minute or two. I know it should be hours or two, but give me a minute or two on the idea that math is just something we invented as humans.
Yeah. And it works.

Speaker 3 What's up with that?

Speaker 3 There's no reason that it should work at all.

Speaker 4 You know, Neil, this is one of the most,

Speaker 4 this is the only piece of magic that I've ever experienced and seen in reality.

Speaker 3 I love that.

Speaker 3 I love that. It's magic.

Speaker 4 It's a piece of magic, but it happens to be a part of our reality. I don't know of any other form of magic for which I can say this.

Speaker 3 And this is human-created magic.

Speaker 3 We create something and it magically describes reality and enables you to predict and understand and extend.

Speaker 4 It acts like a third eye for those of us who are scientists. It lets us see things that are not seeable otherwise.

Speaker 4 I made a presentation at the New York Academy of Sciences about three years ago, two years ago, and it's precisely on this point of the magic ability of mathematics.

Speaker 4 It's an hour-long interview, so I'm not going to bore you with it.

Speaker 3 But I was... By the way, is it on YouTube or something? Or is it?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's available on YouTube.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. Well, forgive me.
I'll go find it. I'm going to find it.
Okay. The New York York Academy of Sciences,

Speaker 3 a long-venerated institution.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. And I was there with Margaret Workheim, and we discussed this magical thing, this thing about mathematics.
And at the end of the day,

Speaker 4 one of the things I said about it is that mathematics, as people like me use it, it's the only human language that we know. accurately allows us to describe nature.

Speaker 4 However, other conscious, any other conscious being that could produce mathematics will have access to this knowledge.

Speaker 3 So hence the idea that if we meet up with aliens, we might start with the symbolic representation of what is and is not. Sure.

Speaker 3 And math could be the only way we can prevent ourselves from getting our brains sucked out by the evil ways. Many of us think that that's right.

Speaker 3 So when we come back, more of this edition of Star Talk, we're talking about proving Einstein right. And we're going to go straight to our Cosmic Queries version of that when we return.

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Speaker 2 I'm Joel Chericho, and I support Star Talk on Patreon. This is Star Talk with Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Speaker 3 We're back. Star Talk, proving Einstein right.

Speaker 3 Chuck, thanks for being there. As always,

Speaker 3 always a pleasure. And we got Sylvester Jim Gates, a longtime friend and colleague, who's an Einstein expert, the theoretical physics expert.
He's all the kind of expert you need for this

Speaker 3 incarnation of Star Talk. And we're going to devote this segment to Cosmic Queries.

Speaker 3 Jim, your presence on our show was announced to our fan base, and they got completely excited by this prospect.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 so

Speaker 3 I have 3% overlap with Jim's expertise in the subject. So if I can find a 3% way to add, I will.
But basically, this is all going to Jim. Okay.
So, Chuck. Excellent.
And do it.

Speaker 5 Not that it needs to be said, but I have 0% overlap with Jim, Jim,

Speaker 5 which is why I'm reading the questions. So here we go.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 5 Let's start. You know what? Before we start, let me just quickly, can you, professor, give us a quick breakdown between the special and the general when it comes to relativity?

Speaker 5 I think that might be a nice framework for anybody who didn't ask a question today.

Speaker 4 Thank you, Chuck. So let me start with special because it's simpler.

Speaker 4 You know, if you were standing by a road and there was a car that was speeding towards you with its horn blaring, what would you actually hear? It would go something like,

Speaker 4 right.

Speaker 4 Right, because you hear that dip in the tone.

Speaker 3 It sounded like you were dying. I was going to say,

Speaker 3 yeah. No, I could do better than that.
Here you go. Ready?

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 4 Okay, so we'll go with that.

Speaker 3 Let's work with that.

Speaker 4 We'll work with the cat sound.

Speaker 5 By the way, in his spare time, Neil does sound effects from Warner Brothers.

Speaker 4 So the point is that effect is because sound changes its frequency

Speaker 4 if it's moving towards you. That's when it's high-pitched.

Speaker 3 Or,

Speaker 4 but if it's moving away from you, this pitch goes down.

Speaker 3 Exactly. So

Speaker 4 the point is light actually does the same thing.

Speaker 4 When a light source is coming towards you, it appears to be bluer than it actually is. When it's moving away from you, it is appearing to be redder.

Speaker 4 And that is one of the primary effects of special relativity. It's about the relative motion of you and the source of the light.

Speaker 4 And my car analogy, it's this motion of the car either towards or with you. So that's what special relativity is all about is.
if I'm moving and you're not, how do I perceive things?

Speaker 4 How do you perceive things? That's the simplest. That's my five-minute class on special relativity.

Speaker 4 Cool. We good?

Speaker 5 And so, and then

Speaker 5 can you juxtapose that against the general and the distribution of mass and all that stuff? Right.

Speaker 4 So the general theory of relativity is something very, very, very different.

Speaker 4 And what the general theory of relativity is about is what is gravity. You see, even the special relativity, Einstein wasn't thinking about gravity.

Speaker 4 He was just thinking about how things would look if I'm moving.

Speaker 4 But in the general theory of relativity, theory of relativity, the question is, what actually is gravity? It's a very deep question that even Sir Isaac Newton didn't get the answer to.

Speaker 4 And the answer that Einstein teaches us through his mathematical wizardry is that gravity is the space, which we move through, and time, which we experience durations in.

Speaker 4 are combined to this like thing he called space-time and gravity is the bending of this thing. So that's my short course of general relativity.

Speaker 3 Cool. Well, there you go.
All right.

Speaker 5 That was great. That was great.
Okay, let's go to Izzy Rohr, who says, Izzy Rohr, Neil, Chuck, Jim, this is your friend Violetta, the astrophysics-loving kid here in Birmingham, Alabama.

Speaker 4 My mom.

Speaker 5 Oh, you know her? Okay, cool.

Speaker 3 We've been in contact. Excellent.

Speaker 5 My mom and I have many discussions, have had many discussions about this. Scientists like to describe Einstein's general relativity as being incompatible with quantum mechanics.

Speaker 5 They say things like they mathematically don't work out

Speaker 5 or don't work together. So our question is, why the heck is that?

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 Jim, yeah, what's up with that?

Speaker 4 Okay, so let me give me a second here because I've got to phrase this without the mathematics.

Speaker 4 So the idea.

Speaker 5 That is so funny, by the way. Okay, let me just say that may have been the most physics thing I've heard in a very long time.

Speaker 5 I've got to figure out a way to say this without the mathematics.

Speaker 3 Well, you see, I don't know if you folks.

Speaker 5 It's like, I'm sorry, me not speak English, me speak mathematics.

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 4 you may not know this, but. Neil can tell you this.
Often at the end of my email messages, I ask forgiveness for spelling and punctuation errors because my first language is mathematics.

Speaker 4 English is my second language.

Speaker 4 So I'm at a disability when people ask me to talk.

Speaker 5 Listen, I've never heard a person admit a fault that makes you better than most people.

Speaker 3 I don't know about that one.

Speaker 4 But it causes me difficulties, Chuck, on many, many occasions.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 4 Okay, but

Speaker 5 back to back to quantum back to quantum.

Speaker 4 Okay, so what essentially happens is

Speaker 4 if you believe the universe is quantum mechanical,

Speaker 4 then it forces you to forget about things like electrons because electrons we think about as little tiny balls. That's the classical picture that you're taught.

Speaker 4 And in fact, quantum mechanics says, no, that's not the way it works for electrons. You have to think of these things.
that are more like waves, except when they act like particles.

Speaker 4 So that's the first thing quantum mechanics. It gives you this really weird thing that you have to give up an idea, except sometimes, right?

Speaker 3 It's really good, right?

Speaker 4 Okay, so now when you, so there's a piece of mathematics around this called Schrodinger's equation. So I got to bring that in.
And it tells you how to calculate.

Speaker 3 If you're going to bring up Schrodinger, you got, you can't leave out his cat. Exactly.
So just keep going.

Speaker 5 Or that litter box, which hasn't been changed in God knows how long.

Speaker 3 Schrodinger's litter box. That's what I'm about.
Schrodinger's litter box.

Speaker 4 You can also go back to Neil's

Speaker 3 Neil's rendition of a car horn as it approaches you.

Speaker 3 But anyhow,

Speaker 4 so you have a piece of mathematics around giving up the idea of particles.

Speaker 4 And when you now give that piece of mathematics up and try to do gravity, you find out you just get into a total mess, that you cannot calculate answers anymore that take into account the quantum behavior.

Speaker 4 And that's the mess.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 that's the disconnect there is that Schrödinger's equation, once you remove anything, doesn't that none of the gravity stuff works.

Speaker 3 Because

Speaker 4 the way that Einstein and Newton and all those folks thought about gravity has the idea of particles embedded in it. That's the problem.

Speaker 3 All right, right. So, all right.
So,

Speaker 3 who's at the end of the day, who's got to give? Is it

Speaker 3 gravity going to bend to quantum physics?

Speaker 4 I see what you did there.

Speaker 5 I saw what you did there, Neil.

Speaker 3 The gravity bends, yeah. Yes.

Speaker 4 Oh, you know, Neil, this is actually a very deep question.

Speaker 3 Or is there a third idea bigger than both of those that then encloses them under one umbrella?

Speaker 4 There are variants of

Speaker 4 everything that you've just said.

Speaker 4 Well, first of all, who's going to bend?

Speaker 4 There are people who will tell you that gravity is going to be one that loses the discussion.

Speaker 3 If I had to bet, I'd lean that way too. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And there are a lot of people who believe that somehow gravity is going to have to give way in in some manner.

Speaker 4 There are other people who have this third idea approach that you were talking about, Neil.

Speaker 4 And one of those, and sort of emblematic of that, is a discussion that's underway about information and black holes.

Speaker 4 I know Neil is probably aware of this, but there's this whole discussion about whether information is conserved. Like we say, energy is conserved, is information conserved?

Speaker 4 And if you have a universe with black holes, doesn't that mean that some of the energy disappears? I mean, some of the information disappears? And then you violate a conservation law.

Speaker 4 So there's a whole big discussion in theoretical physics that's been underway for over a decade about black holes and information confirmation conferences.

Speaker 5 All right, so when you talk about information,

Speaker 5 are you referring to, because we just talked about this last week, give me one second, please.

Speaker 5 That when Neil was talking about virtual particles and the evaporation of a black hole, and if I'm not mistaken, then this particle actually materializes on the outside of the black hole, and then that is what escapes.

Speaker 5 And so then if that were to happen, are you saying saying that that somehow messes up this whole idea of the

Speaker 5 conservation of information?

Speaker 3 But, Chuck, you were really paying attention in that. It does seem like it,

Speaker 3 Chuck.

Speaker 5 Neil, why do you think I do this job, man?

Speaker 3 I'm getting a free education. Damn, Chuck.

Speaker 5 Yeah, okay, so that's what, okay, that's

Speaker 4 but the point is that it's in a state of flux. We don't know what the final solution is going to be, but many people like me

Speaker 4 actually think that string theory will have something to do with the resolution.

Speaker 3 Okay. So the string people think this.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, it's not just string people, I think.

Speaker 4 I don't consider myself a string person, for example. I am someone who's spent their life working on supersymmetry and strings happen to intersect that.

Speaker 5 Okay. Well, I consider myself a string cheese person.

Speaker 3 String cheese, yes, baby.

Speaker 3 That's about as close as I'm getting to it. All right, cool.
All right, go with the next one.

Speaker 5 Here we go.

Speaker 5 This is Paul Vogel, who says, recently, between the detection of gravitational waves and a photo of an event horizon of a black hole, some significant predictions made by Einstein's general relativity have been verified.

Speaker 5 What's the next big prediction made by general relativity that scientists are testing?

Speaker 4 Thank you. So that's a great question.
And it's a great question. And the answer is the following.
In 1905, one of Einstein wrote four papers.

Speaker 4 Among those four papers is one

Speaker 4 that points out

Speaker 4 that

Speaker 4 energy has to be quantized. Now, we know that Einstein doesn't like quantum theory, but in fact, he's one of the fathers of quantum theory because of this 1905 paper on the photoelectric effect.

Speaker 3 Just to be clear, he didn't like it because he didn't think the universe...

Speaker 3 should be probabilistic, right? That's exactly right.

Speaker 4 He wanted determinism, as it's called. Whereas as quantum mechanics says, no, you can't have determinism.
You have to go with probabilities.

Speaker 4 So the answer to your question, Chuck, is now that we have seen waves of gravity, we want to see the quantization of the energy carried by those waves.

Speaker 4 Because when we do that, we will have the Star Trek graviton

Speaker 4 in our universe.

Speaker 5 So the same way we know light has a particle, are you saying that gravity has a particle? Or wait a minute.

Speaker 5 It would have to be that we find this gravity particle?

Speaker 4 That's correct. That's the next big prediction that

Speaker 4 we want to find from the kind of experiments watching gravity waves. You want to be able to see the quantization of the energy that the gravity waves hold.

Speaker 4 That tells you that gravitons, just like you hear in Star Trek, you know, all this talk about graviton waves. At that point, it is no longer science fiction.
It's a piece of science.

Speaker 3 Wait, and Chuck, just to follow.

Speaker 3 your line. So a photon is a particle of light, but you can also speak of light as waves.
Right. Right.
So that so that is a proper analogy. We've measured gravitational waves.

Speaker 3 Now we want to measure the gravitational particle. Oh, my God.
You have a photon, then you have the graviton. So

Speaker 3 I don't know any experiments out there to measure a graviton. Is there some

Speaker 3 in the works?

Speaker 4 No, nothing to my knowledge, Neil. I don't know anyone who's, this is going to have to be an exquisite experiment.
And we're just at the stage of just being able to see the gravity waves.

Speaker 4 So, you know, is is it 50 years? Is it 100 years? I don't know. But as our technology improves, someone is eventually going to figure out how to do that detection.

Speaker 4 And then we can stop saying that Captain Kirk is the only, only guy who gets to talk about gravitons.

Speaker 3 So if, just a quick question, if

Speaker 3 we have gravitons,

Speaker 3 then

Speaker 3 gravity being the curvature of space and time has no meaning in the presence of a graviton.

Speaker 4 Ah, you're following along here. For a lot of people, the detection of a graviton will likely necessitate a real rethinking of

Speaker 4 what gravity is. I've already, I mean, some of us already are there.
I don't actually think about gravity in terms of geometry. It's field theory.
That's the tool for people like us.

Speaker 3 All right. So what you're saying is Einstein's curved space happens to be a convenience

Speaker 3 under certain situations that gets you the right answer. Yes.
And you're good with that, but it's not the total story. Nope.
Okay. Wow.
There you go. Okay.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that is. So just let the record show, Chuck, that Jim Case just said Einstein had his head up his ass.

Speaker 3 He just said that, just to make it clear.

Speaker 3 That's funny. Okay.

Speaker 3 James is silent. James, I'm not saying that.

Speaker 3 I didn't say that. I'm not saying that.

Speaker 5 It was like, send your letters to Neil.

Speaker 3 The professor's like, send your letters to Neil, because I did not say that.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Actually, we got to take a break. And when we come back, we'll go through our third and final segment of Cosmic Queries,

Speaker 3 Proving Einstein Right on Star Talk.

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Speaker 3 We're back. Star Talk, proving Einstein right.

Speaker 3 And Chuck is helping me, you know, in his, because he's, you're a big fan of special and general relativity, aren't you, Chuck?

Speaker 5 Oh, without a doubt. Are you kidding me?

Speaker 3 Come on, man. Yeah, yeah, of course.

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 of course.

Speaker 5 Some people like reality TV. I like Rella TV.

Speaker 3 Okay. Rela didn't work.

Speaker 3 No, that just so did not work. But anyhow,

Speaker 3 but you're on social media. What's your best place people can find you on social media?

Speaker 5 At Chuck Nice Comic. Thank you, sir.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 Chuck Nice Comic. And you even have a, I stumbled on this.
You never told me this. I stumbled on one of your, you have a TED talk on technology and the future.

Speaker 5 I do. Technology and the unintended consequences of human interactions.

Speaker 3 Yeah, or the absence of human interaction by technology.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I stumbled on that.

Speaker 3 I'm angry with you for not telling me in advance about that because I like to find that on my own.

Speaker 3 We've got Jim Gates, an expert in theoretical physics. Jim, do you have a social media platform?

Speaker 4 I do. It's Dr.
Jim Gates.

Speaker 4 There's a Twitter version and a Facebook version, but it's Dr.

Speaker 3 Just DR, I presume. Just DR.
Yeah, all right. We'll find you there.
And you've got this book, Proving Einstein Right. Yes.
And co-authored with Kathy Pelletier.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
So we're continuing our cosmic queries. And just before we begin, and Chuck, before you read one in,

Speaker 3 Jim, you've got a background there that looks, it looks kind of spacey, actually, but then not quite.

Speaker 3 Could you give us a minute on that? Sure.

Speaker 4 So I'm in the odd position, Neil, where it looks like both of my twin children are going to become physicists.

Speaker 3 So this is

Speaker 4 not something I set out to do, but

Speaker 3 yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 Keep telling yourself that. Okay.

Speaker 4 So my daughter works on black holes. And so she's actually started publishing.
And I actually had a chance to watch her give a talk this week. So, you know, big props to my daughter.

Speaker 4 Her name is Delilah. But I also got to give big props to my son.

Speaker 4 The background that you're looking at, these green little splotches are artificial neurons that he's been growing in the laboratory because it looks like he's going to be a biophysicist. Wow.

Speaker 3 Okay, Chuck, he's creating the next generation superhero or superhero villain.

Speaker 3 Without a doubt.

Speaker 3 Black holes and growing neurons. So that's it.
So that's it.

Speaker 5 The daughter will harness the power of the black hole and the son will imbue

Speaker 3 some being with

Speaker 3 that power to rule the world.

Speaker 4 Have you ever heard of, have you ever worried about dark side?

Speaker 3 The dark side. There it is.
There it is.

Speaker 4 So who knows?

Speaker 3 Jim is breeding the dark side.

Speaker 3 So this, is it an actual photo or it looks like artwork?

Speaker 4 No, no, it looks like this is actual photo of uh some of the first successful cell lines that he's been growing that where you can see the evidence that they're developing a ganglia like real brain

Speaker 3 sweet man okay wow that's amazing watch that space that's so important okay cool all right let's get to the next question chuck yeah big brain stuff going on in that family

Speaker 5 all right here we go let's um let's go to uh

Speaker 5 let's go to lisa hansen and she says hello to you all from the Bay Area. String theories are so involved and fascinating.

Speaker 4 I love trying to wrap my brain around them.

Speaker 5 I'm wondering what, if any, other scientific disciplines are involved in the research for evidence and proof of these theories, what those clues might be.

Speaker 3 Well, yeah, clues in this real universe, Jim, and not the imagined one.

Speaker 3 I knew he was going to say that.

Speaker 4 It's interesting that that question came up because

Speaker 4 just last summer, I did something for the first time in my life. Because I tell people I exist at the boundary of mathematics and physics.
So I'm a fallen mathematician in some sense.

Speaker 4 But last summer, I published a paper along with my colleague, Stefan Alexander here at Brown University, Evan McDonough, who was one of our postdocs.

Speaker 4 and my postdoc, Konstantinos Kuchralaikis, as well as our graduate student, Leah Jinks.

Speaker 4 And in this paper, we set set out a premise that strings might be able to write structures, create structures that could potentially be observed in the cosmic microwave background.

Speaker 4 We call these structures SUSY reals. They're like these funny patterns.
I hope people are familiar with the CMB. It's this microwave radiation that you can detect by looking out at the universe.

Speaker 4 And what we showed in our paper is if you take string, the ideas of string theory seriously, they have a way of writing a kind of signature in the structure. So what kind of science do you need?

Speaker 4 You need to be an astrophysicist, someone who can actually look in microwaves at how the universe gives us a perspective.

Speaker 3 That's a good idea. Well, that's again, it comes down to the astrophysicist.

Speaker 4 There you go. Of course, absolutely.

Speaker 3 Look, Einstein. Now, wait.

Speaker 4 Einstein needed astronomers.

Speaker 4 String theory may well need astrophysicists.

Speaker 5 So that begs the question.

Speaker 5 In that collaboration, who was Batman and who was Robin?

Speaker 3 Just a quick thing. If I remember, Stefan Alexander, isn't he? He's the jazz musician, isn't that correct?

Speaker 4 That's exactly right. Stefan is a professional-level jazz musician, although he is a physicist.
on faculty here at Brown University.

Speaker 3 I should have said that differently. He's also a jazz musician.
So he wrote that book, The Jazz of Physics, or The Physics of Jazz, or something. The jazz of physics is is his.
Yeah, okay. All right.

Speaker 5 Cool, man. All right.
Great stuff. That's great stuff.
Let's move on to Josh B. who says, who has more impressive mustache, Albert Einstein or Neil deGrasse Tyson?

Speaker 3 Do you know, I got to say, anytime I'm on, I got to show up in a movie or in a documentary and they put you in hair and makeup, you know, and so they do the makeup fine.

Speaker 3 And then they get to the hair and they say, can we trim your eyebrows a little? And can we get some of the loose hairs out of your mustache? And I'm saying, wait, this is my Einstein look.

Speaker 3 You did not, you want to be all trimmed and manscaped?

Speaker 5 You need a wiry, unkempt, just wild mustache.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so what's with that look, Jim, that Einstein sported?

Speaker 4 So I'm not sure what the question is.

Speaker 3 You know what?

Speaker 5 With that as the answer, we should just move on.

Speaker 3 That was hilarious. Let's just go to Sam O'Neal.
Okay. Who says?

Speaker 3 well wait just wait just about eight years ago i just want you to know i was nominated for the mustache hall of fame okay so you know just so you know right

Speaker 4 okay well i'm going to return that i was once inducted into the luxuriant hair association very that's a thing

Speaker 3 it was at the time okay

Speaker 5 okay all right okay here we go this is from sam o'neal he says hey dr tyson hey dr gates what's up chuck my question is what do you theorize that the strings in super string theory

Speaker 5 are made of? Love you guys. I would give you money and I do.
Samantha from Earth.

Speaker 3 From Earth. Excellent.
I love that.

Speaker 4 My question is, PayPal?

Speaker 3 No, we don't.

Speaker 3 It's Patreon on this side of that fence. Oh, okay.

Speaker 4 Okay, well, someone's got to explain that to me, you know.

Speaker 3 There you go.

Speaker 3 Well, that's all you, Jim, so go for it. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 So the thing about string theory, which perhaps isn't completely understood, is that we don't think strings are made of anything.

Speaker 4 They are the fundamental thing, if it's a correct picture of the universe.

Speaker 3 They are the thing everything else is made of.

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 3 Therefore, you can't say what it's made of because it is the thing that everything's made of.

Speaker 4 That's all we know.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 3 That feels like a cop-out thing.

Speaker 5 I was about to say that's a little circular.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but that's slightly circular.

Speaker 3 But no, no, but no, no, Chuck, you're right.

Speaker 4 But you see, one of the weird things about mathematics is that you have to take some things on faith. There's actually a mathematical theorem that says this.
It's called one of Goethe's theorems.

Speaker 4 And so this is one of the really weird things about math that people do not appreciate.

Speaker 3 Well, no, Jim, be fair. It's not that you have to take it on faith.
It's that you have to assert that it's true. And if you assert that it's true, then everything else works.
It's an assertion.

Speaker 3 It's not, gee, I hope it's the...

Speaker 3 no you just declare that it's true and then take everything from there but but you can't prove you can't prove the thing that you assert that's true that's not and therefore it's an element of faith meal i don't i don't i use faith in a different i know i know you do we have to have another discussion about the whole faith we'll get you i said we'll get you back seven other ways on this without a doubt i'd love to talk to you forget einstein we got other other business to resolve here if only george michael were here to settle this debate okay sorry pop culture reference probably shouldn't have bought it in here we we go from 1980 i know i know

Speaker 3 damn chuck i can't help how old are you uh damn he looks young doesn't he does he just

Speaker 3 use that oil of old age

Speaker 3 that's what exactly what he said

Speaker 3 okay i never heard that before i like that i heard that from an old friend of mine

Speaker 5 oil of old age i like it all right here we go uh this is woody he says after seeing neil's enthusiastic response what are jim's thoughts on a cosmic

Speaker 5 gravitational background? And you just talked about the cosmic microwave background and string being able to be visible in that. What about a cosmic gravitational background?

Speaker 3 Do you have any questions? So this would be the paw print of the birth of the universe expressed in gravitational waves. Right, right.

Speaker 4 Would be, and I don't see, I've never actually heard a scientific discussion of this, but that idea really seems well-grounded that one could imagine no that if one could

Speaker 4 i mean look the cosmic microwave background is an electromagnetic background it's microwaves right just like the microwaves you cook it's light it's light right it's a form of light right but um but a gravitational background a gravitational signature from the big bang i don't see any reason why that's not possible i've not heard of any scientific discussions of the concept how okay so part of why the the cosmic microwave background is so useful to us, not only that it exists, but we have a map, a very detailed map of its structure.

Speaker 3 And right now, when we're detecting gravitational waves, oh, something happened. We think over in that direction of the sky.

Speaker 3 You know, we don't, we have nowhere near the mapping precision to possibly do anything interesting yet. And I don't know when it would come.

Speaker 4 Oh, I would give us about 20 to 30 years because in order to do what you're saying, Neil, First of all, we have to get a sufficient number of gravity wave detectors.

Speaker 4 Right now, there are about four in the world that are one. There's one, for example, in Europe.
There's one in Australia. And there are two in the U.S.

Speaker 4 So that's the minimum number you need to do the mapping. And they're not all sort of up fully functional.
So we got some time. Right.

Speaker 3 And then you need, then you want to get gravitational waves of different wavelengths. Right.
And so that, so it's not just this one that came through.

Speaker 3 Get the whole spectrum, if I can borrow that word from light. And then you have this two dimensions of information

Speaker 3 to to interpret. So, yeah, so yeah, we're not there yet.
But if we were there, it would tell us a whole lot about the very first moments of the exactly.

Speaker 4 And that's where science is pushing toward.

Speaker 3 Cool.

Speaker 5 That is super, super cool. All right.
Roman

Speaker 3 Precop or Precop says this.

Speaker 5 Is it possible that some of the stars observed in the night sky are duplicated or multiply duplicated due to light bending and gravitational fields of a massive object like super, like some super black hole.

Speaker 3 I should let Neil ask. Yeah, I could take, I could take that one.
Go ahead, Neil. Yeah,

Speaker 3 I could take that one. So the answer is yes.

Speaker 3 Next question.

Speaker 3 No, so what happens is that the way this unfolds, by the way, Einstein first predicted that you could make a ring.

Speaker 3 Look at the Einstein ring, where the light would bend symmetrically in all directions around a single object and create a ring of light from that single object from behind.

Speaker 3 It turns out that's not realistic because that requires exact lineup. Right.
So that there's a perfect geometry of all sight lines that go around it. Most things don't line up exactly.

Speaker 3 But when we do find them sort of line up, even if not exactly, you find distortions that resemble rings. They're arcs.
They don't make a full ring, but they make arcs.

Speaker 3 Now, if you have one object behind, that object will make a minimum of three images. One that comes straight through and then two that come around the side.

Speaker 3 And up from there, it can make three, five, or seven images. So yes, in fact, we didn't see something cool.
Here's something cool. You ready? You ready? Okay.
So

Speaker 3 we found objects, quasars, whose light bent around

Speaker 3 galaxy clusters that were sort of midway

Speaker 3 from Einstein's gravity.

Speaker 3 But the path lengths were not the same. Okay, so this, this, the path on one side is a little longer than the path on the other.
And you know how we know? Because quasars vary. They have explosions.

Speaker 3 The light varies. So we see it and it varies up here and then a scheduled time later it varies over in exactly the same way.
So you get to see

Speaker 5 is that's because of the change in intensity of light due to the explosion? Is that what's happening?

Speaker 3 Well, no, there are things going, yeah, the quasars can eat things episodically. There's a lot of weird things, episodic things that can happen in quasars.

Speaker 3 But the fact that you have two different different path lengths is extraordinary testing of the shape of the curvature of space and how much gravity is in the cluster and how far away the quasar is.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 it's an amazing thing. So

Speaker 4 it's funny to me that you've come back to this because this is what my daughter works on. We talked about the cells behind me.

Speaker 4 But when you have rings of matter around rotating black holes.

Speaker 3 Chuck, he's just giving equal time here. I know.
Exactly. Because he didn't want to pick his children.

Speaker 5 He's a good dad.

Speaker 5 He's a good dad.

Speaker 3 Go on, good dad.

Speaker 4 But when you have rings of matter that glow around spinning black holes, you can actually see their backside of the ring because the gravity bends the light from the growing light.

Speaker 4 That's what a daughter works on.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 5 that's very cool, man.

Speaker 3 One last quick one. And

Speaker 3 we got to call it.

Speaker 3 We're over time. We're done with it.
Yeah, Chuck, go ahead.

Speaker 5 This is from Glenn. He says,

Speaker 5 Dr. Gates,

Speaker 5 do you think that white holes exist? Was Einstein observing, gave,

Speaker 5 what was Einstein observing that gave him the impression that they did?

Speaker 5 All right. Now, I'm just going to answer this for you.
No, there are no white holes. Einstein was racist like everybody else back at that time.

Speaker 3 Just couldn't let it be just

Speaker 5 couldn't just let it be a black hole, could she?

Speaker 3 Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So, no, go ahead.

Speaker 3 Of course, Chuck got right off his chest.

Speaker 5 You know what? I love it.

Speaker 3 Here's what I love about the professor.

Speaker 5 He's sitting there like, I have nothing to do with this.

Speaker 5 Whatever Chuck is saying right now, that's his crazy business.

Speaker 3 I only just met Chuck. Exactly.

Speaker 5 He's like, I don't know this man.

Speaker 5 All right, go ahead. Sorry.

Speaker 4 Okay, so what's

Speaker 3 Jim?

Speaker 4 So what's really quick, what's really interesting is black holes aren't black.

Speaker 4 It turns out that because of Stephen Hawking, we know that they actually have this very slight radiation called Hawking radiation. So they're not exactly black.
That went out a long time ago.

Speaker 4 So, you know, got to keep up with the news and physics.

Speaker 3 Okay, but the white white hole the concept the white hole concept

Speaker 4 i i

Speaker 3 people who look i don't know of any any solid scientific arguments about the existence of such things i have not encountered okay and plus we don't see anything in the universe that would resemble what a white hole would be predicted to be which would be the the mathematical opposite of a black hole right right yeah so everything is spewing out and that should look like something in the signature of light something spectacular we don't see it yeah yeah but we really got to cut it there Jim, okay, we got to get you back for nine other subjects.

Speaker 3 That's okay, Neil. Okay,

Speaker 3 we got you on the roll of decks. I got game.
All right, and we'll get a picture from your other child's grandchild behind you on the next program. Okay, black holes, man.
Black holes.

Speaker 3 Chuck, always good to have you. Always a pleasure.
All right. This has been Star Talk.
I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. As always, keep looking out.

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