The End of the Age of Terror and Death (with Stewart Lee)

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Hello, and welcome to Strong Message here from BBC Radio for a guide to the use and abuse of political language.

I am Armanda Yannucci and oh my heck, you will not believe the episode we've got for you.

Not one but two people are here.

It's me and Stuart Lee's here and he's brutal and he and I are going to analyse to the max in what will be the most intense 14 slash 30 minutes of your life, depending on whether you're listening to the radio 4 shorter version or the longer version on BBC Science, it's going to be a Met is all language now, super hyped and turned up to I can't sustain this.

No, I don't know.

That whole thing is happening in capital letters, isn't it?

Yeah, I was on.

It's like one of Trump's tweets.

Yes.

Yeah, before the mics came on and the green light came on, I turned myself into block caps and just went.

But people do podcasts for three hours like that.

Yeah, yeah, I know.

It's an amazing skill.

And also the American right-wingers that do it do that but at five times the speed you're doing right yes and it's kind of like a steam a steam roller with a rocket underneath it that you can't can't stop yeah yeah um that's stuart lee by the way oh hello

yeah the phrase we're going to look at uh this week is donald trump saying the end of the age of terror and death basically as i said in my intro

is everything the best it's ever been and will ever be or in contrast the work work of scum and just the worst people imaginable.

It's both simultaneously.

Yes, well we'll get to the best of the world.

That's the best of times and the worst of times, Orlando.

So but before we go, just a way of kind of just a light relief way into that, just so I can get time to catch my breath.

Did anything strike you as interesting this week, Stuart?

Tell you a funny thing out to me, and I know you've got a story like this, but mine's better, right?

Okay.

Which is, in 2002, I got called in to write a biopic of a famous poet starring a famous actor by the famous actor who wanted to to do a biopic of this writer and he said can you write some um spec scenes and a treatment and i did and i handed them in tom morris at battery art center i was working at the time read them and said oh that's great anyway a week later i got the pa of the actors arranged to meet me at maison vertu a cake shop in um soho and i thought i was going to be offered this job right and gradually over the course of the conversation i realized i was being sacked and the reason i was being sacked because the actor thought that i had written the script and the scenes to make fun of him and ridicule him in some way and he was so angry that he didn't even want to meet me he was worried there'd be trouble right so I was sacked off this thing and I don't know why to this day but last week I got an email from a director working with the same actor inviting me to write a script for the same project 23 have you I've been rehired 23 years later after being sacked having been told that my script was an attack on the on the star well if we're going to go down that road because it says here Stuart talks about Riyadh Comedy Festival but no that's fine we can do that another time no no no I did say to you in the thing.

Let's talk about Riad Comedy Festival.

No, no, no.

I want to talk about institutional hypocrisy.

So I went to a Catholic school in Glasgow called St.

Peter's Partic, which was the same school that Billy Connolly went to.

And at the time I was there, Billy Connolly was just becoming famous in Scotland.

But the teachers told us it was a sin, possibly a mortal sin, to listen to Billy Connolly because he did jokes about the crucifixion and he swore and he talked about sex and all that.

Until he then went on the Parkinson show and became

nationally famous and internationally famous at which point the school invited him back to talk to us.

But that Parkinson appearance was the one where he did the joke about the man parking his bike in the crack of his dead wife's bottom.

Yes, yes, which we were all asking him to do in front of all the kids.

But yeah, I know.

So

I was also once sacked from a newspaper when a new editor took over.

And then five years later, when the thick of it went out, that same editor rang me up and asked if I wanted to write write for the newspaper because, quote, you are hot.

I remember you saying that at the time, and I thought of it immediately when I was reading.

But I think a 23-year gap is

a better gap.

But yes,

well, while you're talking about that, you know, where comedy does interface with ideas of ethics and is the Riyadh Comedy Festival.

I mean, it's still, the row is still rumbling on about it, where lots of people

Saudi Arabia had a comedy festival.

Yes.

It was financed by the king, you know, who also was the man who organized the dismemberment of a journalist and the disposal of the body in a suitcase.

I'm doing a show at the moment where I'm an American stand-up comedian, and he does a right-leaning American stand-up comedian.

He goes, And you know, you shouldn't be annoyed with the king of

Saudi Arabia for chopping that journalist up and putting him in a suitcase.

How else was he supposed to get his murdered body out of the hotel room?

Am I right or am I right?

I'm here all week, try to fish.

That's the the bottom line on it to me, is that your paymaster had a journalist dismembered.

And they've all equivocated about it.

What's weird is loads of the American comics that have gone are the kind of freedom of speech guys.

You can't say anything these days.

So you've got Bill Burr and Dave Chappelle there doing homophobic material, anti-feminist material, in a country where gay people and feminists are at best prosecuted, at worst executed.

So I don't see how the speaking truth to power thing works there.

And it is 100 years since the birth of Lenny Bruce as well, who almost certainly

and margaret thatcher well they were great friends of course yes of course

a lot of people don't know the same nursing home corresponded 100 years ago they corresponded together but um and uh so it's and i think there's having a right laugh up there oh yeah it'd be like when all the rock stars died and have a big jam yeah but it what's weird about is everyone people went justified it that the festival put out loads of lies about itself it says it's the biggest comedy festival in the world it had 42 acts in it the mccuntleth comedy festival is bigger and i think basically it's interesting because there was a period, Lenny Bruce, kind of 100 years since his birth, created this kind of character that there's a kind of standard that was supposed to be a truth teller and hold power to account and whatever.

And I think that's kind of fallen apart, partly because

figures in public life like Trump or Boris Johnson have no ethical consistency.

There's nothing.

You're kind of not expected.

It's kind of old-fashioned.

And they're kind of, they're seen as Mavericks and outside the norm.

And also, they're their own entertainers.

They're providing the entertainment.

So therefore, somehow the spotlight has then started shining on people like us who are comedians or comedy writers as if somehow we're now meant to explain what it is that's going on.

Well, we're held to higher standards of account.

I mean, I know this is deviating.

I find that weird.

I remember Hugh Bonneville a couple of weeks ago at the premiere of the new Downton Abbey film, where he said, before I talk about the fluff and loveliness of a wonderful film, what's happening in Gaza is indefensible.

That's the position we entertain as a know-in, where we have to promote our awareness, but also have an opinion on every major political issue.

A couple of people walked out 15 minutes into my two-hour stand-up show in

Durham the other week when I'd been talking about Keir Starmer and the rise of right-wing propaganda and ancient monuments in Britain and how we must protect them.

And I found out afterwards they had thought they were coming to see the film of Downton Abbey, but they had managed a quarter of an hour before they decided this isn't it.

I mean, would you think it would be immediately obvious?

Yeah, when you walked on, did they not think, first of all, this isn't on celluloid or in any digital format that I'm familiar with?

It's a man.

Maybe people have just lost

track of what formats are now.

Is this a new format of film?

Maybe they thought I was going to tell the story of Downtown Abbey.

Don't know.

I remember ages ago, you know, some nearly 30 years ago, taking my eldest to his first film at the cinema.

And when we came out, I said, what did you think of it?

He said, it was really good.

It was like a big video you can only watch once.

Yeah.

So he basically reviewed the idea of film.

Okay.

So we're talking about truth and lies and basic exaggeration.

That's the thing I want to look at this week.

When Trump exclaimed, the prayers of millions have been answered.

At long last we have peace in the Middle East.

And declared it also potentially one of the greatest days ever for civilization.

It made me think that where we are now is in an environment where most political language is absolute and extreme, or if you don't want to call it extreme, because that has a derogatory connotation, is maximized.

It's maximized.

What a great word.

Yeah.

Thank you very much.

But I think it's also assumed that tomorrow it will be forgotten.

Oh, and it's instant.

It's just to keep instant sensations over and over again.

It's maximized and immediate.

Yeah, maximized and immediate.

And also, no one really in the American media holds Trump to account.

No one really holds Farage to account.

He's allowed to say whatever he wants and then move on.

And so they know this works.

And Bannon, Steve Bannon, who was Trump's advisor and is now advising the far right all over the world, his strategy was flood the zone with shit, right?

Yeah.

It's not just putting lies everywhere that take up lots of time to try and correct.

It's also about these insane maximized statements, isn't it?

Yeah, because I was watching the coverage of the

peace deal

and there was just something buzzing in my head, which I couldn't quite define, which is like the disconnect between what I was watching and hearing about peace has come, this will last forever, and the images you had of a flattened land.

Yeah, and of people searching rubble for the bodies of their relatives whilst that ceremony was going on.

Yeah, and I was asking myself, Netanyahu would say, you know, the mission was to destroy Hamas and get all the hostages free.

But I was watching hostages being freed, conversations about other hostages who were dead,

and then seeing once the Israeli forces withdrew, Hamas reappear and direct the traffic with weapons.

So I thought, well, neither of those two aims have been completely achieved.

And yet somehow we've reached a point where whether it's through exhaustion or actually everyone now thinking this is this is unbearable, unbelievable, we must stop.

But it was coached in terms of like historic, grand,

the future is going to be brilliant.

Literally the future will be orange if you want to.

It had to be.

It had to be allowed to be perceived as a victory.

And so the language was all changed around allowing that to be the way it was perceived.

Yes, but is there a danger then that what's happening is we're being groomed into accepting the language and

telling our minds and brains that what we're seeing shouldn't bother us or is there for a separate kind of chain of thought.

Okay, when you say we're being groomed into accepting the language, I mean that's what this show is about, isn't it?

It's about

statues.

It's about understanding the lies of political language.

And I mean, this is going off topic a bit, but really there's kind of only one story in the news at the moment, and that is how language is being used to trick and deceive us.

And that is often being driven, you know, algorithmically by social media giants.

I'm jumping around a bit, but in the US, there's an anti-DEI activist called

Robbie Starbuck.

Robbie Starbuck.

It sounds like something from a Philip Dick novel, doesn't it?

That's the problem.

Loads of things

sound like they're from science fiction novels now.

I mean, anyway, so this Robbie Starbuck has managed through, because he had a legal case against Meta, to be put in charge of rejigging their AI so that it...

So he works for Meta.

He works for Meta, and his job is to purge AI of what he calls woke ideals.

Right now, woke is conveniently.

This is another language issue.

Woke's a really useful word for all these people because it's never been defined.

It's just,

you know, when you were talking the other week about Elon Musk said, we must stop this.

Woke is the thing, oh, it's all woke.

People will say that traffic calming measures are woke.

It's everything a normal person doesn't like is woke so he's going to purge

yeah you're unbelievably woke so we know that we know that the americans are going to de-wokeify ai and robbie starbucks um justification for this is that lots of americans voted for trump therefore they must want things de-wokeified yeah but that affects the whole world right why because the ai technology is

everyone's using so what so we're all going to not be able to find out about the history of slavery now or whatever you know it's just it's so that that there kind of is only one story and you keep coming back to it, which is which is how

language is being controlled.

Yeah, I've always felt people have always talked about, is this the end of the Roman Empire when they look at America?

And I think, no, it's the end of the Roman Republic.

It's the start of the Roman Empire.

It's the start of the emperor who must be lauded and be declared a god and have a triumph, even if all he's done is, you know, row over to Britain and watch some horses and then row back again.

You know, there's a quote from Witkoff, who's Trump's, I don't think he has an official title other than special envoy for peace saying,

there's only one thing I wish for, that the Nobel Committee finally gets its act together and realizes that you, Donald Trump, are the single finest candidate since the Nobel Peace Award was ever talked about.

And unfortunately, it turned out to be that title actually went to the leader of the opposition of Venezuela.

Yeah, I mean, they're probably not going to give the Nobel Peace Prize to someone who threatened to invade Greenland.

You know, that's, but I mean there have been Nobel Peace Prize winners like Obama that have you know used military force on places.

It's not a cut and dried thing.

But weirdly they gave it to him before he did it.

Just as he became president.

Right, right.

Oh, I've got the timeline wrong.

But yeah, but I mean, it would be interesting to think that if some kind of peace is brokered in the Middle East, and it's by no means a done deal,

it may have been driven by the eager mania of Trump wanting to get a Nobel Peace Prize just because Obama had one.

I mean, it's insane.

Do you think he's just going to sue the Nobel Prize committee?

Well, he might do, because he sues newspaper people.

That would be really interesting, wouldn't it?

I mean, Avalon,

Avalon, our management company, comedy management company, one year, Al Murray wasn't nominated for the Perrier, and they'd say that he should have been, and then he won it.

So there's a kind of history of the...

He won the award.

He won the award.

They capitulated in the face of it.

And they allowed him to be considered.

And then he won the award.

I think there was a technicality whereby they thought he was doing so well anyway that he wasn't.

But, you know, but yes, Trump could, that's the kind of thing Trump could do.

Or maybe they'll drug him and just put on a pretend peace prize so many.

Yeah.

He'll wake up in it.

That's the problem with people trying to negotiate with him, is everything's driven by these random, bizarre forms.

Yeah, so this and then this meeting in Egypt to discuss the peace and the ground plan.

And again, I was thinking from what we've gathered of the peace plan, it relies on Hamas completely disarming and giving up any power in Gaza.

And they've not agreed to that yet at the time of recording.

And further down the line, it implies the creation of a Palestinian state, which Netanyahu has said definitely won't be happening.

So, the fine details of this plan, I'm not saying it won't work, I'm just saying the fine details haven't really been approached yet.

It's going to be a long process, but this celebration of this gold, it just reminded me, I think, of mission accomplished.

Yeah, George W.

Bush on that battleship a week or so after the invasion thing was all over, dragged on from terrible, terrible decades of turmoil.

Yeah, and I also wondered whether the priorities had been right at the peace meeting they had because I was reading this morning that said the Summit for Peace was a virtual who's who I'm quoting from The Guardian as of Tuesday of Middle East and European politics while attracting other unlikely power brokers in the Trump era of international diplomacy, such as the president of FIFA Gianni Infantino.

What was he doing there

at the

what was why was he there?

What's

Why is he there?

I don't know.

And is it because Gaza is now completely flat?

Might be good for football pitches.

Yeah, it could be.

Yes.

What does he have to say in the middle of a discussion about, I don't know, foreign aid,

energy infrastructure?

I don't know.

It's important that all points of view are represented, though.

Okay.

Right.

Including the football one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Right.

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I'm going to tell the viewers that you've brought, you forgot your right glasses today.

So Amando's struggling with his notes, but I think it gives him the impression of being a wise, blind seer.

Like a profit, like a profit figure.

He can't actually, he has great vision, but he can't see the things that he's doing.

It's all internal.

Yeah.

Ah, masterly.

I came across a new word.

In fact, it's an old word.

But I've just never come across it before, which is dysphemism.

Have you come across dysphemism?

Not until you told me.

And that is the opposite of euphemism.

It's the portrayal of everything as the worst it can be.

And that's the counter, I think, to the language we've been talking about, which is when politicians have achieved something,

it's the greatest since records began.

But against their opponents, you know, they're more than just wrong, they're scum, their sleaze balls, or that portrayal of what their opponents have done to, you know, America, it's American carnage, crime is rife in cities and towns, or here, Britain's broken, nothing works, the worst prime minister since records began, she's toast, that immediate rush, I think, to the kind of the maximum opinion about something.

Well, again, that is going hand in hand with the way information is disseminated now, isn't it?

The bigger and bolder a statement is, the more hits it gets on the internet and the more it's likely to get spread.

So if you can make those massive statements, they'll be rolled around and amplified by Facebook and Twitter and whatever.

But there's no point

having a measured opinion about something because it doesn't get any traction.

So every single thing has to be hyperbolically overblown like that.

And then that's why you get people saying they can't come to London because you'll be stabbed in the street immediately.

And everything is a hyperbole.

But how if anything that's at all considered is drowned out by the noise, does that mean that if you have a kind of a considered point to make, do you have to then, I mean, how do you make it be heard?

Do you have to, what's, is there a good shouty way of being considered?

This is what liberals have got to figure out because they're in a no-win situation at the moment because the people on the far right, they have no qualms about lying.

It's part of the strategy.

Flood the zone with shit and say a different exaggerated lie than you.

I mean, I would argue that that's what's happening at the far end of both sides you know it's it's you know you say anything I don't disagree with you are you know yeah you're a scump or you're a racist or you're a

we rush to the the maximum word before we have any chance to kind of explain what we disagree on I mean that that Gavin Newsom is trying to do is trying to do what you say he's trying to do funny capital letters shouting extreme opinions

couched as a sort of parody of Trump but he's also obviously hoping that

gets the messages across.

So how is it easy?

I mean,

how do you do attention-grabbing moderation or,

you know,

listen to this reasonable point of view?

Wow, so many good points from all sides.

Enjoy this balance.

I disagree with you, but I'm very happy for you to say your opinion, but I disagree with it.

Well, this is what this is, isn't it?

This is why this is the most downloaded thing in the world or something at the moment.

That's an exaggeration.

Or whatever it is.

Because it's you talking about things in a reasonable way.

I think, you know, on Radio 4, it's at a certain level.

But for the BBC Sounds, the longer version, which is also available on all other podcast media, I think we just turn it up.

We really turn it up.

And next time I come on, let's do the whole thing shouting and see what happens.

That, again, is the modus operandi of the right-wing demagogue sort of influencer type figure.

Charlie Kirk's thing was the speed at which he talks as well.

The speed at which he could throw together a shouty sentence full of absolutist terms.

Yes, I think it's that thing of he's convincing only because of his behavior, his performance.

It's like a lot of these people I always equate with

failed apprentice candidates.

No, successful apprentice candidates who are the ones who you know they don't know what they're talking about, but they say it in a very convincing way.

There's no hesitation.

So it's like, Lord Lee, I'm more than happy to take on your request to invent a cake out of brick.

I don't know how it's going to be done, but 100% you've chosen the right guy who can make it happen.

Yeah, thank you for it.

It's that, and you go, oh, that was quite confident.

You must actually have, must know something about it.

You're putting forward of a vision of a world where policy and ethics are shaped by failed apprentice candidates.

Yes.

And I think, you know, if we ever to do a kind of historical investigation, I think that would explain

everything

if we looked at it that way.

Most people who do stuff that doesn't work are the requirement or have got there because they sound like a failed apprentice candidate.

But imagine now a failed apprentice candidate is running the world and you're not allowed to disagree with them.

Because you'll get sued.

Because you'll get sued or sent to prison.

So how do we undercut that apart from using lock caps all the time?

Well, we have we have a a succession of podcasts where reasonable, slightly witty people try to pick apart the news.

That'll stop them.

Yeah.

I want to go back to,

I mean, you talked about Farage, but recently, Kirstama's language is interesting because he went from talking about Britain being, you know, an island,

an island of strangers, to a Britain where

that he was proud of.

People were, quote, painting the fence, running the raffle, and cutting the halftime orange.

But then he went on to call Najee Farage a racist who hates his country.

And I thought,

I thought, you haven't shown you're working there.

You know, that's going to be easy to disprove that Najef Farage hates it.

I remember doing a thing about Suella Bravoman ages ago about all the things that she had criticised, like, you know, local government, doctors, judges, the royal family, people in North London, and saying that's an awful lot of the country that she doesn't like.

But that's part of a kind of joke leading up to that conclusion, and you sort of buy into the joke.

But to go straight to he hates his country, is part of...

Well, he's hopelessly left himself open to having that dismantled there, and they have to do better.

When I write funny columns for the nerve, how can this be taken apart?

For example, what Sarah Vine has done to me in the past is there's a Ciceroneian dictate, isn't there, that a funny idea is a delicate thing indelicately put or an indelicate thing delicately put.

So there has to be some sort of traction.

So what she, Sarah Vine, does when she misquotes me is if I've got an indelicate idea delicately put, she changes the language so that it's an indelicate idea indelicately put.

And then people read it and they go, that's offensive.

But it wasn't when I wrote it because I didn't say that.

I deliberately had fun with how language works, right?

And so I have to write thinking about how these things can be decontextualized.

So I always make sure that there's something in the sentence that will, that if you get back to the original source, it isn't what they will say it is.

And I've learned this over 25 years.

What Starmer has to realize is that everything he says will be taken apart.

And all they need is a little clip.

What Farage was trying to manufacture

during the Brexit campaign was a succession of moments where he could say his thing on television.

Even if the thing was indefensible or wrong, he just needed to clip that little little bit out.

And then that's the bit that goes on social media.

So they're looking to create these.

And I think about the summer when he said that, you know, Britain is on the verge of societal collapse.

Yeah.

And that didn't happen.

But you kind of think it did happen because he said it so many times.

We were looking last week at just if you just repeat the one thing again and again, it somehow becomes kind of true in your head or in your memory.

You know, you start remembering differently.

Well, actually, the flag riots weren't as bad this summer as last year, and yet there was obviously a lot more effort put into coordinating them.

So, in a way, that's quite encouraging.

But it's interesting, you know, when Kirstama said he's a racist, Farage was then kind of implying that Kirstam might have blood on his hands, you know, that there will be attacks on

reform

representatives.

Okay, in fact, there was a case of someone who was, I've read a thing today, someone was assaulted.

The Warwickshire Police said that they're investigating an assault on a reform councillor, quote, after receiving a call at 2 a.m.

on Saturday in which a man stated he had been pushed by another man in Nuneton.

Look, I'm sure it was very distressing.

And it's really

nice of that, the people involved in that incident to put it in Nuneaton because that's one of the sort of 20 words, isn't it?

It's on the secret magical list for comedy writing.

Anything that happens in Nuneaton is much funnier than anyone else.

Yeah, that was chosen by the jolt police.

By the joke police, yeah.

But they're not to minimise the suffering of the man who's been pushed.

But Farage is now saying that, you know, Kiostama has.

Well, not blood on his hands because the guy was shoved.

So so what hands on his hands

shoving his hands

if he was being pushed away from nun eaten the man may be grateful for that anyway but what was it that tice was saying because tice said that starmer had told people to take up arms and go against the enemy and and this was inciting violence now a didn't say that at all but also during the um brexit campaign richard tice that was part of um leave.eu and all those organizations were very good at creating short-term viral content that would disappear as soon as it had done its damage before it could be complained about.

But weirdly, they're slightly better at how to use it in a way that's not going to get them in trouble.

They're not...

They seem to be being advised better on how to use language that suggests violence.

And they have the kind of, I mean, more recently, I mean, during the summer gatherings outside asylum hotels and so on, Nigel Farage said something about the police are actually, Essex police are actually bussing in counter-protesters.

And the police said that is not true.

We did not do that.

And Farage said he apologised for that.

And he said he apologised if it was slightly out on accuracy, but the gist of what I was saying was right.

So if you could appeal to the gist, that goes back to that fuzzy, yeah, the sort of, I mean, it sounds like what he's saying might be true because he's saying it so confidently.

So maybe the gist of it is true, even though factually I can't find any evidence.

When it comes to gist, gist, you know, David Lamy said that Nigel Farage had flirted with the Hitler youth.

Right.

And

Lamy came up with a

not so much an apology.

He sort of said,

He's denied it, and I accept that he's denied it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, that's resolved.

I think we've done an excellent job on resolving the whole question of like, is language too extreme?

I think, actually, this is probably the best discussion that the internet has ever seen.

It's no good saying it as if it's, you have to shout it.

Yeah.

Thanks very much, Julie.

what a guy see you next time

thanks for listening to straw message here i'll be back next week with rielina all our previous episodes are available in our feed so make sure you're subscribed on bc science goodbye goodbye can you speak for 60 seconds on the time i went to sue perkins birthday party starting now i wasn't invited

Sue Perkins returns with the one-minute speaking challenge.

That was the start of my secret journey into the chasm of

what is he talking about

with panelists including Stephen Mangan, Patterson Joseph, and Zoe Lyons.

I was only once invited to Sue Perkins.

Oh, aren't you lucky?

The new series of Just a Minute from BBC Radio 4.

It's all quite bitter, isn't it?

Welcome to the game.

Oh, yeah, sorry.

Listen now on BBC Sounds.

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