The Ballad of High Times Magazine

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Speaker 1 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 1 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too, and we're just hanging out feeling IRE here in Stuff You Should Know.

Speaker 2 Did you ever, I mean,

Speaker 2 I'm going to ask you two questions. Did you ever read High Times much? And did you ever subscribe?

Speaker 1 I never subscribed. I was way too paranoid to do something like that.
But yes, I read it. I looked at the pictures.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 I think for one year in college, I actually subscribed because, and this is High Times magazine we're talking about, everybody.

Speaker 2 I was going to say notorious, but not really notorious, the infamous weed magazine.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 2 But I subscribed for, I think, a year because it just seemed like, you know, I wanted to have that house that had that on the coffee table with our address on it.

Speaker 2 I just thought it was like the cool thing to do, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, it was legitimately cool during a certain period of life.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Like, if you were 50 doing that, it's kind of sad.
But if you're like 20 or 19 or 21 or 20 and a half, let's say, then, yeah, I get it.

Speaker 2 Watch what you say, though. I've learned from recent emails.
There may be a 50-year-old out there that thinks high time is cool that's going to be very upset.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's true. But I mean, do they have it on their coffee table? I don't know.
I think that's the thing that's kidding me.

Speaker 2 Even when I did read it occasionally, I, even at the time, was like, this is the articles, the way they're written, there were so many puns. It was so kind of corny.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so it never felt like as good as I think they might have thought it was.

Speaker 1 Does that make sense? Yeah. And also one of the other things, too,

Speaker 1 I was going to say you could sense it, but no, it was just really overt, was Was they had an agenda in every single one of their articles?

Speaker 1 There was a way they wanted you to think, which is their position on it. And they would like mock

Speaker 1 the other position on it, typically the government's position on like legalization or something like that. Yeah, good point.
Over time, though, I mean, it became

Speaker 1 an iconic magazine. Like, for sure.
Pretty much everybody's heard of High Times.

Speaker 1 If you've never even picked one up, there's a good chance you've heard of High Times or somebody referencing High Times. It's like it insinuated itself into American pop culture.

Speaker 1 And the reason why it became iconic is it survived all sorts of drug culture transitions.

Speaker 1 Like throughout all these different ways of thinking and looking at drugs and different drugs people were doing, High Times managed to just keep plodding along and stay relevant, I guess is the best way to put it.

Speaker 1 I didn't think I was going to say that out loud, but here we are.

Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure. From the

Speaker 2 yeah, let's just get into it then.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 No more needs to be added.

Speaker 1 I agree. I agree.

Speaker 1 So High Times was founded by a guy named Thomas King Forsade.

Speaker 1 And I just realized I didn't look up any videos of people pronouncing his name, but I'm pretty sure that's how it's spelled.

Speaker 2 So Ray de Rolleth Forcade.

Speaker 1 Well, I've seen the little

Speaker 1 the little French version of the umlaut, the little devil's tail coming off of the bottom of the sea. Oh, okay.
And that indicates a sound if my high school French doesn't fail me.

Speaker 1 So I think his name was Thomas King Frasad.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 2 Great. He looks like, if you look up this guy, you know, when I went to look up, I'd never seen a picture of him.
I expected, I didn't expect to see someone so cool looking.

Speaker 2 I mean, he looks like he stepped right out of the Almond Brothers band or something.

Speaker 1 I was going to say it looks like the Almond Brothers satanic advisor.

Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 And if you're thinking, like, what do you mean? It was like a pot magazine. Why do you think he'd be cool? It's because I usually expect them to look sort of like a wavy gravy.

Speaker 2 Any like weed activists to be just decked out in tie-dye and kind of just wearing some sort of wacky handmade hat.

Speaker 2 And this guy, like, he looked like he could jump off of a chopper and like hit the stage or something, you know?

Speaker 1 Yeah. And you know, that same 50-year-old who's upset because I said something about high times on his coffee table.
It's pretty much a wavy-gravy look-alike, too.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he's wearing

Speaker 2 his own handmade mid hat.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 So this guy, Thomas King Forsad, it's a pretty cool name. And if it sounds made up, it is made up.
His real name was Gary Goodson.

Speaker 1 And it's not because his name was Gary Goodson that he ditched that name in favor of Thomas King Forsad.

Speaker 1 He was actually a big,

Speaker 1 big time pot dealer. Like, not only did he sell literal tons of pot in like the, I think starting in the late 60s and going

Speaker 1 well into past the time he was

Speaker 1 had started publishing High Times,

Speaker 1 he smuggled it himself. He flew planes and he went to Mexico, he went to Jamaica, and he smuggled pot, tons of pot at a time into the United States.

Speaker 1 There was a quote I found of his that he said, there's two types of pot dealers, those who need a forklift and those who don't. I need a forklift.
And like he wasn't, he wasn't joking.

Speaker 1 Like he really dealt that much pot.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so I mean, regardless of how you feel about that or him or any of it,

Speaker 2 he wasn't just some guy saying like, hey, let's try and make a little dough off of this marijuana people are smoking. Like he was knee-deep in the business.
Right.

Speaker 2 This was after coming out of,

Speaker 2 seemingly to avoid the Vietnam draft, a short stint in the air guard

Speaker 2 where he was discharged after convincing them that he had schizophrenia.

Speaker 2 And at that point, he went back to Arizona in Phoenix, changed that name, which was his mother's, I'm sorry, grandmother's maiden name,

Speaker 2 and,

Speaker 2 you know, got into the underground zine scene.

Speaker 2 You know, that was a big thing back in the late 60s because of the ubiquity of like being able to print your own stuff in an office or a, I don't know if they had Kinkos back then, but he got into those and founded his own first underground magazine called Orpheus, which had some politics to it, but it was kind of just a little groovy psychedelic thing that covered like music and pot and stuff.

Speaker 1 Tell them about the issue with the peace sign and the bullet hole.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there was a peace sign on the cover that actually had a real bullet hole. So instead of just drawing a bullet hole, he shot them up.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he

Speaker 1 shot bundles, the stacks wrapped together with a Colt 45 handgun to really kind of drive the point home.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's creative. That is an underground zine zine right there.
If it has a bullet hole in it that the publisher put there, that's really something. Yeah.
Stuck with real blood. Right.

Speaker 1 You said something I think is really worth pointing out because there's a whole camp of people who tell this origin story of high times and Thomas King Frasad that it was like just some money-making scheme or just a lark or something like that.

Speaker 1 This guy in actuality was a dedicated First Amendment warrior, like dedicated.

Speaker 1 And also he was very committed to the counterculture, not just because he sold tons of weed, but he genuinely believed in legalizing marijuana, that that was a crucial thing to do in the United States.

Speaker 1 And he put his money where his mouth is. And like you said, he started with underground zines, and then he took up, I saw that he joined or he founded.
I couldn't tell which one was correct.

Speaker 1 What's basically like an associated press for underground magazines. It was called the Underground Press Syndicate, and I think it changed its name to something else, right?

Speaker 2 Uh, I'm not sure, I always saw it called UPS.

Speaker 1 Well, we'll just call it that, but it was like I said, the AP where you could you could like get all sorts of news about drug busts or about you know some spectacular pot harvest or something to do with underground culture, and um, you could just print it in your your local mag.

Speaker 1 And the people in Phoenix are reading the same thing as the people in Denver, but they don't know that. They just think it's like part of your magazine.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and he eventually worked his way up to national coordinator for the Underground Press Syndicate. And that's where he learned how to run a magazine, basically.

Speaker 2 That's how he learned about ad deals,

Speaker 2 distribution, printing, like efficient printing, real printing.

Speaker 2 For a little while, and I figure we should probably do something on Abby Hoffman and the Yippies at some point. All right.

Speaker 2 You don't want to highlight boomers, do you?

Speaker 1 No, it's not that. I just think that guy's gotten more than enough of his spotlight.
But yes, it's all right. You know what then? Forget it.
Okay. Wow.

Speaker 1 I didn't think I was going to talk you out on that one.

Speaker 2 Hey, if you want to learn about Abby Hoffman, you're not going to learn about it here, everybody.

Speaker 1 Go steal his book. Yeah, or read.

Speaker 2 Very nice. I got that one.

Speaker 2 So he did join up with Hoffman, though, and his Yippies. Again, if you want to read about them, they were a group that did a lot of

Speaker 2 social pranks and media grab,

Speaker 2 you know, activist stuff for their radical causes in 1970

Speaker 2 for SAD, you said?

Speaker 1 Yeah, because if you take out the O

Speaker 1 and change, or no, if you change the O to an A and take out the R, you've got façade, like the front of a building.

Speaker 1 So I'm making an educated guess here.

Speaker 2 I think you're probably right, but I'm just, I've been saying it wrong all day, so in my head. So that's going to take a minute.

Speaker 1 That's okay. I was reading the High Times archives, and I guess they had some like sixth grade trained AI

Speaker 1 scan and alter or turn all of their magazine photos into text. And boy, they came up with some creative ways of spelling that guy's name.

Speaker 2 Wow. You also sent me a lot of fun ads for cocaine paraphernalia.
Dude, that was crazy.

Speaker 1 There is few things that are funner and but also more shocking than looking at vintage cocaine paraphernalia ads that appeared in the likes of High Times and other magazines.

Speaker 1 And there was one that I pointed out to you that was just

Speaker 1 like this thing should be in the Smithsonian. It was a

Speaker 1 metal, probably like a gold-plated Coke tube. So you put one end in the Coke and you put the other end up your nose and you sniff, right? Just in case you didn't know how to ingest cocaine.

Speaker 1 How'd that work?

Speaker 1 It's shaped like an old school vacuum cleaner. And so the Coke goes into the bottom of the vacuum cleaner and comes out the handle, which is up in your nose.

Speaker 1 They call it the hoover instead of the hoover. Like whoever, whoever came up with this is just, that's dedication right there.

Speaker 1 Because that's the kind of idea you'd just be like, man, we should totally make this. But then the person actually went and made it and sold it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and then McDonald's hired them to develop their Happy Meal prizes.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 They're like, this guy's really good at these tiny little bubbles.

Speaker 1 Exactly. And if you knew what you were doing, you could clip the ends off of all those prizes and use them as Coke struggles.

Speaker 2 All right, so in 1970, that's where we were. Four Saad

Speaker 2 testified before Nixon's Presidential Commission on Obscenity and Pornography. And this is when he got a real chance to, you know, take the national stage and talk about,

Speaker 2 well, the quote was, the only obscenity is censorship.

Speaker 2 And it's the first, and I feel like we talked about this in our pie in the face episode. I had to.

Speaker 2 But it's the first incident that we know of where a protest pie in the face happened when he pulled out a cream pie and

Speaker 2 face-pied

Speaker 2 Dr. Larson, Dr.
Otto Larson.

Speaker 1 Yeah, who was the chairman of that committee on obscenity and pornography, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, and that must be the first one. I mean, it's cited as the first time, you know, not in a Marx Brothers movie, somebody's like, let me make a point with this.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was a form of protest that picked up really quick.

Speaker 1 I mean, there's few things you can do to somebody publicly that is more disrespectful and humiliating, but also non-injurous than pieing them in the face. But he did that.
He did that anymore.

Speaker 1 He was called to testify. And not only did he say that censorship is the true obscenity,

Speaker 1 he said F censorship and F you. And then he pied the guy in the face in a congressional hearing.
This is what he did. This is just the kind of person he was.

Speaker 1 Like he wasn't somebody who just talked a big game. Like this guy followed through on the stuff that he really believed in.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and he also let that pie sit out the day before in Phoenix, so it was rotten green.

Speaker 1 Yick,

Speaker 2 should we take a break?

Speaker 1 Um, sure.

Speaker 2 All right, let's take a break and we'll talk about uh the beginnings of the magazine right after this

Speaker 1 stuff. You should know,

Speaker 1 Josh and Sean,

Speaker 1 Stuff you should know.

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Speaker 2 All right, so we've introduced our protagonist, I guess, in the first act.

Speaker 2 We can't, and, you know, Dave helped us put together this article, and he points out that if you try to get, I mean, you could do a whole article on this guy and talk about all the wacky things he did over the years,

Speaker 2 like concert festival promotion.

Speaker 2 He snuck allegedly pipe bombs into the 72 Republican Convention.

Speaker 1 Later on, he followed the Sex Pistols around and co-produced a documentary on them called DOA.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so he was a busy guy doing a lot of stuff, but this is about high times.

Speaker 2 So the origin story officially for High Times magazine is that he thought of it with his friends while he was huffing nitrous oxide. Other people say it might have been an acid trip.

Speaker 2 But either way, the early idea was, hey,

Speaker 2 how about a magazine?

Speaker 2 like a marijuana themed magazine. They've got Playboy, and some people say like the initial idea was just a one-off kind of spoof of Playboy, but everyone that worked there said, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 The idea was always to have like a real magazine that was cheeky and fun, but also like real journalism and tackled real topics about activism and marijuana and growing it and all that stuff.

Speaker 2 Right, exactly.

Speaker 1 Michael Kennedy, who was Forsad's personal attorney and then came on as High Times legal counsel from like the beginning until I think 2016 when he died,

Speaker 1 he explained it that High Times was meant to be a way to use free speech

Speaker 1 to teach people how to grow pot.

Speaker 1 And that like they basically had found a loophole

Speaker 1 thanks to the First Amendment that they could disseminate all of this information as far and as wide as they possibly could.

Speaker 1 And in teaching people to grow their own pot, that would eventually change attitudes about pot and potentially lead to legalization.

Speaker 1 And as we'll see, that they were successful in that quest that they started back in 1974.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's right. And I think, I mean, I think it absolutely did that.
I think one of the missions was,

Speaker 2 hey, let's really convince people,

Speaker 2 not convince, but let's really show people what the truth is, which is that this is a plant that can be grown. Like plant versus, you know,

Speaker 2 illicit drug, you know? Right.

Speaker 1 Or illicit drug versus illicit drug. Like at the time,

Speaker 1 the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 had just been passed, thanks to Richard Nixon. And marijuana,

Speaker 1 which by the way, I read is not at all racist. There was a Latino,

Speaker 1 I think, historian who researched it, and he's like, yeah, that's actually myth.

Speaker 1 So good for him.

Speaker 1 That it was a Schedule I, which I think

Speaker 1 it still was until like this year,

Speaker 1 which means that it has, according to the government, no medicinal value whatsoever and the high potential for abuse. And both of those are just absolute lies.
They're just not correct.

Speaker 1 They're not true.

Speaker 1 They knew this back in 1970 and that this Controlled Substances Act kicked off the war on drugs, which in retrospect, most people now agree was misguided and a huge waste of money and killed a lot of people.

Speaker 1 And this was the era that they.

Speaker 2 And incarcerated. Yes, incarcerated.

Speaker 1 It's a big one, too.

Speaker 1 But it was in this era, the beginning of this era, that high times started to kind of

Speaker 1 become not just an idea, but an actuality.

Speaker 1 So they wanted to fight that, which was part of the reason they were willing to like use mockery or just all of their articles had a slant to it because they felt like they were taking on liars.

Speaker 1 And that's a legitimate way to respond to liars is through mockery or really kind of pushing your agenda against them. But that was a huge,

Speaker 1 I think, impetus for creating high times, for sure.

Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. So that very first issue came out summer of 74 is when it debuted.

Speaker 2 It had a 10,000 copy print run. And it didn't really light the world on fire, I guess, no pun intended, at first.

Speaker 2 It had like an excerpt from a Timothy Leary novel.

Speaker 2 Of course, articles about hemp and marijuana and how great they thought it was.

Speaker 2 There were some interviews. And very importantly, they had

Speaker 2 something that would stay in the magazine, which was a feature called the Trans High

Speaker 2 Market quotation, which is

Speaker 2 a listing of like, hey, in Chicago, this is how much a dime bag costs. This is how much it costs in New York.
This is what an ounce of weed costs in Phoenix.

Speaker 2 I guess they still call it street value, which I always thought was really funny.

Speaker 2 But that's what it was, and it stayed in there for a long time, even though, as we'll talk about later, it changed a little bit over the years.

Speaker 2 But this first issue, like I said, was not, I mean, they did eventually sell out of that 10,000, but it wasn't through,

Speaker 2 it was through a lot of hustling. It wasn't like, hey, it's on your newsstand.
Forsade said, here, let me get it into head shops. Let me send them to record stores.

Speaker 2 Apparently, drug dealers bought copies and gave them away to people.

Speaker 2 So it eventually did sell out the two printings, but it was the second issue is when it really, really took off because of their, you know, kind of ingenious promotion.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah, they threw a launch party at the Gramercy Park Hotel in New York and invited like a bunch of media and just got them messed up.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 like straight button-down media types, journalists, um, some like TV news people showed up and were like giving brownies and like, here, try nitrous oxide. And have you ever had cocaine?

Speaker 1 And I read a quote from Michael Kennedy, the legal counsel for High Times.

Speaker 1 He said that he remembers three or four lawsuits being brought against High Times from people who got so wasted for the first time in their lives that they decided to sue the magazine for it.

Speaker 2 I could see that. Apparently, it was also, if not the first, one of the first times

Speaker 2 live television showed people doing drugs. That was one of the local news stations, according to Rolling Stone,

Speaker 2 showed people on camera. on the news snorting cocaine.
And I'm sure people at home are watching this just going like, what is going on? But it was huge publicity.

Speaker 2 And they sold out their 50, this time 50,000 copy run in four weeks. And it became like a genuine sensation.
That's when also the second issue is when they started

Speaker 2 also as an homage to Playboy magazine, their center fold. But of course, their center fold was always

Speaker 2 these big, beautifully photographed pictures of buds, marijuana buds.

Speaker 1 The first one,

Speaker 1 I would take issue with the idea that it was beautiful. It was a 20-pound brick of swag,

Speaker 1 just brown and compressed and ugly. But at the time, it was like their premier weed, Colombian.

Speaker 1 And just another aside, I'm sorry about this, but

Speaker 1 I've always wondered in Hey 19, the Steely Dance song, when he says the Cuervo gold and the fine Colombian, is he talking about cocaine or is he talking about pot?

Speaker 1 And I went and researched this and I stumbled into like a long-standing argument. Oh, really? Yeah, I read an explanation from one person and it sounded pretty legit.

Speaker 1 They said it's 100% pot that they were talking about. That's what you called really good pot back in the 70s.
It was Colombian.

Speaker 1 And it wouldn't have referred to cocaine in the first place because at that time, most of the cocaine came from Peru. Colombian farmers hadn't really taken up coca production.

Speaker 1 And so most people, if you were aware of cocaine, you were like, this is some fine Peruvian. You wouldn't say this is some fine Colombian.
So it seems like that guy settled it, at least in my mind.

Speaker 2 Hey, that could have been the original lyric. You never know.
It depends on the day, probably.

Speaker 1 I guess it does, sure.

Speaker 2 Have you seen the Yacht Rock documentary yet on Max?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 2 It's pretty good.

Speaker 1 Like about the people who came up with Yacht Rock?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, the people who came up with the term Yacht Rock are featured in it, but it's about the genre of music.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay. So like it goes back to the 70s and 80s.
Well yeah, what else would it be about?

Speaker 1 Well there's a there's a band called Yacht Rock that kicked it all off and I don't know.

Speaker 2 Oh you mean like the Yacht Rock review?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 No, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 Could have been going on turned with them.

Speaker 2 The term Yacht Rock came about in the early 2000s from a web comedy series. Okay.
Which I never knew until I saw this documentary.

Speaker 2 But no, it's about just the, you know, Christopher Cross and Michael McDonald and

Speaker 1 Seals and Croft, all the great people.

Speaker 2 You'd enjoy it, I think.

Speaker 1 Have you seen the limited series Black Doves with Kevin? No, I have not. What's that? It's a British spy thriller, like eight or ten episode

Speaker 2 show.

Speaker 1 It's really good.

Speaker 2 I mean, you can say more, but I just mean I'm into that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 No, I'm with you. No, just go watch it.
I recommend it.

Speaker 2 LC, I always say these things in a recording, and then I don't remember afterward.

Speaker 1 Just text me and be like, what was the thing with the thing?

Speaker 2 I don't know what you're talking about. Why don't you text me right now while I talk?

Speaker 1 Black Doves. I don't have my phone on me.
It's in the charger.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 That's right. So mid-70s, when High Times rolls out,

Speaker 2 those very first years, the magazine was doing really well, but as a, you know, sort of a new magazine. But Forsad was not.
He was on the FBI surveillance list.

Speaker 2 He was very paranoid because of the massive amounts of drugs that he was taking.

Speaker 1 Well, but also rightfully so. The FBI and possibly even the CIA was infiltrating the counterculture and planting informants.

Speaker 1 And there was a time where he was like, there's an informant here, the High Times staff. And I don't know which one of you it is.
There may have been. Yeah, it's possible.

Speaker 1 Like, he had reason to be paranoid at the very least, but it was definitely fueled to extremes through his drug use, for sure.

Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 The magazine itself was doing well. Like I said, the staff, I mean, it was just...

Speaker 2 I mean, if you think like the Lampoon and Mad magazine was kind of crazy in their office, like everybody in the High Times office was huffing nitrous and smoking weed and snorting blow, like as they were working.

Speaker 2 But it was, you know, it was creating like some really relevant journalism. They were exposing, you know, government activities as far as the drug war goes.

Speaker 2 Like when putting Paraquat, which I cannot help but think of Big Lebowski when I hear that word.

Speaker 1 I don't remember that part.

Speaker 2 It's when Jeff, when the dude called the

Speaker 2 real Lebowski a human paraquat

Speaker 1 when he was mad.

Speaker 2 I think he said human even, human paraquat.

Speaker 2 But paraquat was the pesticide that was in marijuana fields under orders from the U.S.

Speaker 2 And this article helped promote a congressional investigation.

Speaker 2 They interviewed the Dalai Lama about drugs. There was Hunter S.
Thompson and, of course, William S. Burroughs doing writing.
There was

Speaker 2 Truman Capote did a guest interview with Andy Warhol. Bob Marley was in it.

Speaker 2 Like, it was really heyday of that magazine as far as being like a real, like, they achieved what they wanted to achieve in the first few years.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, that's like some heavyweight underground stuff right there that they got into their pages for sure.

Speaker 1 Um, and yeah, I think the latest thing you mentioned was 1978 with Truman Capote and Andy Warhol. So, this is all in like the first four years that they're cramming all this stuff in there.

Speaker 1 Um, so yeah, right out of the gate, it was it was very successful, in part, Chuck, because there was nothing like this

Speaker 1 in existence before, I mean, aside from some underground zines that 50 people read before High Times.

Speaker 1 It became a national magazine, a national magazine about pot and people who love pot and love drugs and want to see them legalized. And here's how you do it.
And here's how you grow this stuff.

Speaker 1 And today it seems like. It's not a really big thing to talk about pot or to find an article about people smoking pot in Newsweek or whatever.

Speaker 2 um right and that is because high times existed and laid the groundwork for it yeah i mean they by year four they had a subscribership that was about the same as rolling stone magazine yeah that's crazy which is yeah it's just nuts um in 1978 uh forsade had previous um attempts at suicide but he succeeded in november of 1978 very sadly when he was just 33 years old uh i saw different things that he you know, it was after the death of a friend that had him really upset.

Speaker 2 And like I said, there were previous attempts. So he was a troubled guy, to say the least.
But

Speaker 2 they held his memorial atop the World Trade Center at the Windows of the World restaurant. And as legend has it,

Speaker 2 smoked. I think Keith Richards snorted his dad's ashes, supposedly, but they rolled up some of Forsad's ashes in joints and smoked them as a staff.

Speaker 1 That always reminds me of that episode from Six Feet Under where the daughter finds some actors who are snorting like their co, um, their co-stars ashes.

Speaker 1 Geod on like cocaine or something like that and died. And I can't remember the daughter's name from Six Feet Under, but she finds them doing this and just Claire, she just goes bonkers on them.

Speaker 1 Like, what is wrong with you?

Speaker 1 It's really good. It's very satisfying.

Speaker 2 That's weird for Claire to be judgy like that.

Speaker 1 She was so morally offended by what she was seeing that she just unleashed on them. It was weird for her, but it fit the moment.

Speaker 2 I wonder if she was upset about her art class at the time.

Speaker 1 I don't think she was there yet. I think she was younger.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So high times this is before,

Speaker 2 as far as the magazine itself, before Forsyth died, they did start to sort of...

Speaker 2 stray from their mission statement a little bit as far as coverage of harder drugs. They started writing a lot about cocaine,

Speaker 2 like in a big, big way. They even started including cocaine and meth and LSD in that trans-high market quotation as far as how much it should cost in different cities.

Speaker 2 And it was sort of like, I think the adherents of the magazine even were a little bit like, hey, this is not what I signed up for. Like this was a weed magazine.

Speaker 2 So they kind of got back to the weed thing more in the 80s.

Speaker 2 Cocaine, you know, the reputation started to get a little bit more like, hey, wait a minute, this stuff is like really dangerous and there's a lot of violence attached to it

Speaker 2 in the trade. And so they really got back to the pot thing again in a big way.

Speaker 2 And they were just getting going again in the 80s, back to their mission statement when the DEA launched something called Operation Green Merchant, in which they really wanted to target marijuana growth and not the growth of marijuana, like growing marijuana plants and advertisements for this equipment that was sort of thinly veiled as like, oh no,

Speaker 2 these lights just help you grow your

Speaker 2 oregano at home or whatever, or your lettuce. And so Operation Green Merchant was to target those ads and the publications that sort of taught you step-by-step how to do this.

Speaker 1 Right. And so that, I mean, the DEA had tried to take down high times many times.
This is the one they almost got them with because

Speaker 1 it took out their advertisers. Their advertisers went to jail or were run out of business.

Speaker 1 And all of a sudden, a huge amount of High Times regular advertising dollars just vanished like overnight because of Operation Green Merchant.

Speaker 1 It went up and smoked. That's right.
Sorry. No, it was worth it for sure.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I read a quote there. They were saying like at this point, High Times was on the verge of bankruptcy.

Speaker 1 The DA almost got them, but they managed to just kind of slowly climb their way back and get back into it. In the 90s, this is when I started reading High Times.

Speaker 1 It was saved by hip-hop because before Dr.

Speaker 1 Dre's The Chronic album came out, pot was just viewed as like, you know, people who listened to like hippies or burnouts, like Judas Priest fans, stuff like that.

Speaker 1 That's who

Speaker 1 smoked pot, and they were just as likely to sniff glue at the same time, right? Right. Then the the chronic came along and it was, it just exploded like overnight.

Speaker 1 Pot was totally in fashion again and the whole new generation

Speaker 1 just got into it like really quickly.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And High Times magazine, I mean, they rolled right with it.
I mean, right into the 90s, all of a sudden it's like, oh, well, now we can put Ice Cube on the cover and,

Speaker 2 you know, write about this other sort of,

Speaker 2 I mean, I guess you call it a subculture that, you know, we hadn't been highlighting in the past.

Speaker 2 And, you know, beyond making it relevant again, I think they found out they were missing out on an entire like readership that they had never targeted before.

Speaker 1 Right, for sure.

Speaker 1 And the one other impact that it had, too, is they helped instruct people how to set up your home grow system.

Speaker 1 So as like hydroponic systems started kind of going from a thing you had to put together by going to 50 different stores to like you can buy this this entire hydroponic system through the pages of High Times.

Speaker 1 They help people learn how to do that along the way.

Speaker 1 And as a result, pot just started at the same time when it became fashionable again in the early 90s, it got exponentially better than it had been leading up to that.

Speaker 1 It was like somebody threw a switch and all of a sudden pot was what you see or think of it now, like just sticky buds and gorgeous, like beautiful flowers and all that stuff.

Speaker 1 Like that really was much more potent. Like that happened at about the exact same time as like the Chronic and Snoop Dogg coming out and all that.
Like 92, 93 is when it really changed.

Speaker 2 I was talking to my friend Clay the other day because he is who introduced us to the Chronic when we would,

Speaker 2 I think I've said this before, but we went over to his house and play like the Nintendo,

Speaker 2 whatever the system was. What was the one back then?

Speaker 1 It wasn't the 64, was it?

Speaker 2 Super supernatural yeah the 64 was the 64 okay yeah so we go over there and play street fighter and mortal kombat and clay one day was like dude listen to this yeah put puts on the chronic and snoop dog's voice came out of the speaker and we were all into hip-hop at the time but snoop dog he didn't sound like anybody else at the time no so when he his voice came out we were like who is this guy yeah it's like oh my god and like how funny and i was talking to him the other day i was like how funny and back then like would you ever think that now snoop dog is like this

Speaker 2 I mean, one of the most famous people in the world.

Speaker 1 I know, the mascot of USA Olympics.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, working with Martha Stewart, it's like, I don't think anybody saw that coming.

Speaker 1 Oh, that was a good documentary, too, by the way.

Speaker 2 Oh, I haven't seen that one yet. It's good.
Is it good?

Speaker 2 Hey, I don't know if everyone knows this. Jerry's been to Martha Stewart's house.

Speaker 1 I didn't know that. Did I?

Speaker 2 Yeah, she told us a while ago. At one point, she was

Speaker 2 doing something with the company. I don't know if whatever happened with that, but Jerry like went to her house.
And she said it was a real mess.

Speaker 1 That's crazy. I believe it, though.
There's probably like felt scraps everywhere and

Speaker 1 half deep bone chicken and things like that just sitting around.

Speaker 2 Hodge Podge bottles just spilled all over the place.

Speaker 2 No, it was perfect.

Speaker 2 So High Times, back to High Times. From 88 to 2013, there was an editor-in-chief named Stephen Hager that ran the joint.
And he was, God, man, I am not even meaning to.

Speaker 2 I swear I'm not.

Speaker 2 He ran High Times magazine.

Speaker 2 This is when they, I mean, they had always talked about legalization, but this is when they really, really got into writing and beating that drum about

Speaker 2 not decriminalizing, but like legalizing weed for everybody.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Like they moved that Overton window and made just the concept of legal weed

Speaker 1 something,

Speaker 1 they took it from something like a dorm room conversation to

Speaker 1 this is how you would do it. Here's a path to legalization in the states, you know, yeah, yeah.
Um, and they just made it like a

Speaker 1 potential thing, like a real concept. They brought it into existence and helped push it along.

Speaker 1 I should say they covered the people who were out there like, yeah, coming into or bringing it into existence or really thinking about it.

Speaker 1 But through covering them and exposing them to millions of people every month, that kind of got the whole idea out there.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the normal N-O-R-M-L? That was it, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, Thomas Forsad helped bankroll them in their early days. The National Organization for the Rethinking of Marijuana Legislation, reform of

Speaker 1 marijuana legislation. Realization? Reform? Yeah, reform.

Speaker 2 I went to one of the

Speaker 2 Atlanta P-Mutt Park used to have in the 90s, the

Speaker 2 normal pot rally concerts.

Speaker 1 You went to that?

Speaker 2 I went to one of them one year when the Black Crows played, and it was a lot of fun. It was a great show.
I liked them for a little while back then, and it was really good.

Speaker 1 You were sitting amid a sea of brass bowls with like the tie-dye little plastic middles that you would hold on to? Yeah, well, nobody was smoking weed. It was really weird.
That's a little weird.

Speaker 1 That's so Atlanta.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, they were advocating it such that there was an article in 2013 in The Nation that said High Times magazine may be the most influential publication of our era.

Speaker 2 So it wasn't just, you know, cheeky articles and pictures of beautiful buds. It was like they were doing real, real work toward sea change and it worked.

Speaker 1 Yes. And yet at the same time, especially in like the magazine industry, they're just dismissed as, you know, they're just stoners.
They're potheads, right?

Speaker 1 And they don't care. They don't seem to, they don't go after awards.
They don't like submit their

Speaker 1 writers' work for awards and stuff like that. They genuinely don't seem to care about that kind of stuff because they're off doing like their own thing and they're actually doing it.

Speaker 1 But I saw a citation of how popular culture thinks of high times from they cited a Saturday Night Live skit featuring Jack Black and he played High Times top reporter and he was like, I think at a press conference or whatever.

Speaker 1 And he would stand up to ask a question and then he would forget what he was going to say every time. Yeah, of course.
Oh, I thought it was hilarious. I didn't even think.
No, no, no. It's funny.

Speaker 1 I'm not saying it.

Speaker 2 It wasn't. I'm just saying like, yeah, that's got to be the sketch is that he has no memory.

Speaker 1 Right. But I could not find it anywhere.
And it's,

Speaker 1 I just read about it. Like all the other stuff I'm talking about.
I didn't experience it firsthand. I've just read about it.

Speaker 2 I feel like I saw it back then, but I do remember that one of the issues I had, and this had to be from the 2000s, was Tenacious D was on the cover. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I think Jack Black himself was as well.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, he is one half of Tenacious D. But I mean, just without Kyle, he's like, let me me do one without that guy.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 All right. We have been remiss in not taking a second break.

Speaker 2 So we're going to do that now, and we're going to talk about what has happened over the last decade or 20 years or so right after this.

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Speaker 1 Okay, Chuck, so we were talking about how Stephen Hager guided high times through like a really prolific era.

Speaker 1 This is like in the 90s, I feel like, and I don't, maybe I'm just talking because that was the time I came in contact with it.

Speaker 1 It feels like that's when it really transitioned into like an iconic thing that was never really going to go away, even if it went away. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, agreed.

Speaker 1 So, in 2004, as I understand it, I believe Hager retired in 2003. And so, the replacement they brought in for editor-in-chief, as far as I know, I think we've both seen conflicting stuff, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I might have said 2013, too, which was it was probably 2003.

Speaker 1 Oh, gotcha. Okay, so Richard Stratton came in as the editor-in-chief, and he had bona fides.
He served eight years in federal prison for dealing pot.

Speaker 1 Oh, I thought you were talking about

Speaker 2 editor-in-chief Bona Fides.

Speaker 1 No, he didn't have those. That was the other thing.
He was a journalist. He'd reinvented himself as a journalist.

Speaker 1 I think he had some books under his belt. He wasn't like a bad pick.
He made a bad pick.

Speaker 1 He was very good friends with Norman Mailer. And in fact, one of the reasons he went to prison is he refused to implicate Norman Mailer in his pot dealing activities.

Speaker 1 And when he became editor-in-chief of High Times, he hired Norman Mailer's son, John Buffalo Mailer, who was 25 at the time. Yeah.
Hired him as executive editor. And

Speaker 1 John, yeah, I like his name. John Buffalo Mailer had zero publishing experience whatsoever.
And the whole thing, it was just, this is a bad time for High Times.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was ill-conceived. I think they didn't quite know where to go after the

Speaker 2 sort of, it's not like the hip-hop era ended any, you know, mention of weed or anything like that. But it it was sort of past that.

Speaker 2 Everything changes from decade to decade culturally, and they didn't quite know what to do, I think.

Speaker 2 So they said, hey, why don't we do this? Why don't we try and sort of change the image of the magazine and become just more of a sort of a cultural magazine?

Speaker 2 Like, essentially, let's stop writing about weed exclusively and let's really stop writing about weed almost altogether.

Speaker 2 And that lasted for about a year.

Speaker 2 They did not like that. The readership was like, what are you doing? The whole point of this magazine is that it's high times.
And it's not, you know, about freedom.

Speaker 2 It's about freedom to smoke weed specifically and grow it specifically. And like I said, about a year later, in fact, it was one year later, I think they were like, we really screwed up here.

Speaker 2 And so they went back in 2005 with a big cover that said, the buds are back.

Speaker 2 and 30 pages of pot pics on the inside. And everyone was like, oh, thank God.
And it was one of their best-selling issues of all time.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And they brought Steve Hager back in to kind of write the ship again.

Speaker 2 Ah, okay.

Speaker 1 And he did.

Speaker 1 Like this,

Speaker 1 high times started the idea that we should legalize marijuana, worked at it ceaselessly for decades, and finally was still around when

Speaker 1 that change started happening.

Speaker 1 And states started talking about actually legalizing pot, not decriminalizing but legalizing pot like you said not just for medicinal purposes but hey if you're an adult and you want to smoke pot go ahead and smoke pot you're not going to get in trouble because we don't have any laws against it anymore like this was starting to happen and high times was right there totally poised to just just step up and accept its kudos and its um huge like rise to prominence as this new changed culture around pot was about to just explode.

Speaker 1 And around this time, private equity got involved and everything went down the toilet.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, that's the irony of this whole thing is right when they achieved all that is when they tanked because of what's called the green gold rush.

Speaker 2 Wall Street, of course, anytime they're like, oh, wait a minute, somebody's making money over there doing something?

Speaker 2 A lot of money? Well, how can we get involved? And that's exactly what happened.

Speaker 2 Investors started throwing money at every cannabis startup you could think of as states were rolling out legalization and making tons and tons of money.

Speaker 2 And so they realized, hey, this High Times magazine is just sitting there. It's a very recognizable brand.

Speaker 2 The magazine's okay. Their website's all right.

Speaker 2 But they make like 80% of their dough from what's called the Cannabis Cup, which is, I think it started out as a smaller thing in Amsterdam, but then became like the official High Times cannabis cup in the United States in 2010, which is a, you know, a weed growing competition.

Speaker 2 So like bring in your new strains of like exotic crossbreeds and

Speaker 2 like high potency buds. And you can win the cannabis cup and it's a big deal.
It received a lot of coverage.

Speaker 2 They did concerts, they did festivals, they did trade shows, and it was a big money maker. So I think they were like, hey, we can invest in high times.

Speaker 2 We can open up a casino in Vegas maybe.

Speaker 2 They bought up a dozen dispensaries and made them high time smoke shops.

Speaker 2 They talked about delivery services. And

Speaker 2 they talked about an IPO for a while, which never happened.

Speaker 2 But all of this stuff,

Speaker 2 a lot of these big deals never came to fruition.

Speaker 2 And so they found themselves eventually $100 million in debt as these deals fell apart after going through just a string of CEOs, which is never, it's always a bad sign for a company, you know, when you have that kind of CEO turnover.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And a lot of those dispensaries closed. And in the middle of the boom of the real marijuana industry, High Times was struggling and basically dead.

Speaker 1 Again, because private equity got involved. That's right.
There's a really good politico article called The Long Fall of High Times by Ben Schreckinger. Yeah.
And it's really worth the read.

Speaker 1 It's very long, but it's good.

Speaker 1 And that article puts the blame on Adam Levin, who ran Aureva Capital.

Speaker 1 He's the one who came in as the private equity guy and made all of these terrible decisions did shady stuff like the announcements for you know some of these business ventures like they would announce them publicly and then the other company involved would have to come out publicly and be like they haven't even approached us about this what they just said is not true so that's not a good thing to do um yeah that ipo was a big deal too because if you have investors the they want you to go public and then they can really start making money off the company uh he just couldn't get it together to get the IPO out the door.

Speaker 1 Yet that didn't keep them from selling pre-sale shares at $11 a piece to high times readers, promising them they were getting in on the bottom floor before the IPO even happened. Just shady stuff.

Speaker 1 And so this lasted for just a couple of years before the magazine, the whole brand went into receivership, meaning that there was a corner pointed person who was in charge of their assets who would try to figure out how to help them get out of bankruptcy or how to help them get out of a hole without going into bankruptcy while at the same time paying off their creditors.

Speaker 1 And I guess it didn't really work because, in, I guess, May of last year, the receiver said, hey, we're going to have a fire sale. Everybody step up, get out your checkbooks.
Let's do this thing.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 7 million bucks. We'll get you the magazine, the cannabis cup,

Speaker 2 the dispensaries that we still have open. Nobody came forward, which is

Speaker 2 shocking.

Speaker 2 I think the most shocking thing to me, and I'm going to say this publicly, I'm going to call out publicly even, why hasn't Snoop Dogg and

Speaker 2 freaking Martha Stewart, they would miss $7 million. They wouldn't even know it's gone.
Why have they not bought this brand?

Speaker 2 Because that sort of public purchase with those two names, or even if it's just Snoop Dogg, but Martha Stewart would add a funny sort of cachet to it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like it would all of a sudden be a relevant thing again. And I don't know.
It's just, it's shocking that nobody came forward to buy it.

Speaker 1 I hope that that ends up being like your Sharknado thing or like the Jared from Subway thing or like your Hugh Jackman greatest showman thing. I hope that comes true thanks to you.

Speaker 2 Maybe somebody who knows Snoop hears this and they're like, hey, Snoop, he may not even know it's for sale, you know?

Speaker 1 It's possible. He's been on the cover a bunch, but he might not be paying attention, you know?

Speaker 2 Yeah. They could say, Snoop, High Time is for sale.
You should buy it. And he would say, for Schnizzle.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I read a great quote from Pot Culture magazine.

Speaker 1 So High Times has just stopped.

Speaker 1 They put out their last published issue in 2024. And the fact that they were still putting out a print magazine actually says how strong the brand was at one point.

Speaker 1 Because they went right through that time where magazines were just folding, print, anything was just folding left and right. And yet they still had the print magazine.

Speaker 1 And they had a pretty heavyweight

Speaker 1 website too, Hightimes.com.

Speaker 1 Their whole archive, all the magazines on it.

Speaker 1 And yet the website hasn't been updated since June 2024. The last issue was September 2024.
If you go onto the site, none of the images work. They're all grayed out, rectangles.

Speaker 1 It's very disappointing. And Pot Culture magazine put it that the once mighty hightimes.com is gone, reduced to an error message that is reminiscent of finding your favorite uncle dead on the floor

Speaker 2 i saw that quote i don't think anybody could have put it better than that yeah for sure uh i also just realized uh as with the ultimate 50 something year old white guy i think it would probably be for shizzle and not for schnazzle because for sure would be for shizzle right sure it would be for sure but i think that the things have evolved so much that that you're fine okay okay

Speaker 1 good um so yeah Snoop, Martha, please do buy high times because it's such an ignominious end.

Speaker 1 Is that the right word? Or was I just deletrious to my own vocabulary?

Speaker 2 Ignominious? Ignominous? Ignoramus, I think, is what you meant.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 Such an unclassy end.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's just like that magazine deserves better than that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Jack Black, he ain't not going to miss $7 million.

Speaker 1 Maybe.

Speaker 1 Maybe.

Speaker 2 I mean, he might miss it for the afternoon, but then he would say, but I've got this magazine now.

Speaker 1 No, I'm with you. I think Martha Stewart has that much laying under her in piles under her hodgepodge bottles that we were talking about, you know?

Speaker 2 Yeah, you're probably right.

Speaker 1 Okay, well, that's it about high times. If you want to know more about it, there's tons of tribute articles all over the web to read.
They're kind of fun.

Speaker 1 And while you're doing that, it's time for listener mail.

Speaker 2 Yeah, this is from Rosalie, and it's just a very kind, sort of gentle reminder, which is always nice to hear.

Speaker 2 Hey guys, it's taken me a while to get this into words, and I hope it comes across with care. It does.

Speaker 1 But why do you suck so much?

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. As a woman in science who does science every day, I just want to point out that technicians are still scientists.

Speaker 2 In your episode on chemistry sets, you rightly pointed out all the sexism in the past and

Speaker 2 present and how science is presented to girls versus boys. But you also feed into it a little bit when you said that girls were funneled into technician jobs instead of being the scientists.

Speaker 2 There are a lot of ways to be a scientist, and technician is definitely one of them. That's like saying that nurses aren't healers like doctors are.

Speaker 2 A more accurate description is that women were and are funneled into technician and now communication jobs in the sciences and men to the professors and principal investigators.

Speaker 2 It is better than it has ever been, I have to say, but academia still hasn't figured it out, among other things. And that, I'm glad to know that, Rosalie.
And that's from Rosalie Maltby.

Speaker 1 That was a great reminder. We love, love, love being reminded when it's pointed out to us that we fed into something that we were just totally unaware of, especially if it's unjust, you know?

Speaker 2 Yeah, technicians are scientists. Of course they are.
That's right.

Speaker 1 That should be a t-shirt.

Speaker 1 Maybe it will be. Well, thanks a lot, Rosalie.
We appreciate that big time. And if you want to be like Rosalie and send us an email like that, you can send it off to stuffpodcast at iHeartRadio.com.

Speaker 1 Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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