WWII Sabotage Spotlight: Operation Gunnerside

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.

Speaker 2 Want Black Friday prices without the crowds? Lowe's gets it. Shop their early Black Friday deals and beat the rush.

Speaker 3 $99 is all you need to grab a select seven-foot pre-lit artificial Christmas tree for the holidays.

Speaker 5 And don't sweat what gifts to get, Dad.

Speaker 8 They have up to 40% off select tools and accessories going on now.

Speaker 2 That's how Lowe's celebrates Black Friday early.

Speaker 9 Selection varies by location while supplies last.

Speaker 12 Hey everyone, I want to talk to you for a sec about Squarespace and specifically Squarespace payments.

Speaker 14 If you're running a business and you're using Squarespace, you're doing the right thing because Squarespace payments is the easiest way to manage your payments in one place.

Speaker 13 Onboarding is fast and simple. You can get started in just a few clicks and start receiving payments right away.

Speaker 12 Plus, you can give your customers more ways to pay with very popular payment methods like Klarna ACH Direct Debit in the U.S., Apple Pay After Pay in the US and Canada, and ClearPay in the UK.

Speaker 13 Just go to squarespace.com/slash stuff and you can get a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use our offer code stuff to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

Speaker 1 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 11 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too.

Speaker 11 And I guess it's a new year because I just had the spirit of John Strickland pass through me when I welcomed everybody. Did you hear that? Enthusiastic Hey?

Speaker 11 Yeah, a little bit of a, well, not a COA, I guess, just sort of updating is this is our first recording of the new year.

Speaker 11 And we had our longest break ever. You know, I think everyone knows we take a nice long Christmas break, but this year it stretched into November.
And so we've been gone for a long time. Yeah.

Speaker 11 And I'm like, do I even know how to do this anymore? Yeah, same here. I keep making this

Speaker 11 sound whenever I move. Oh, no, no, don't do that.
I can't help it. It's just, I'm that rusty.

Speaker 11 And also, this topic,

Speaker 11 it's good, but it's,

Speaker 11 we'll try and keep it as streamlined and easy to understand as possible. There's a lot of moving pieces.
Sure.

Speaker 11 And there's a lot of Norwegian names that we've, I still don't know how to say the letter with like the null set.

Speaker 11 I think it's like a umlaut. Is it? Okay.
I mean, I'm going to treat them as umlauts. I'm pretty sure it's the same thing as an umlaut.
Okay. Okay.

Speaker 11 We're still going to screw up some of this, but don't worry about the names too much. You know, we should just name everyone, you know, Bill 1, Bill 2, Bill 3.
Right. Or Leaf T.

Speaker 11 But anyway, we're going to give it our best go. Welcome back, my friend.
I'm glad to be back in the studio after this wonderful break. Same here, man.
Same here. Welcome back yourself.

Speaker 11 So, yeah, we're talking today about one of the more unsung operations of World War II.

Speaker 11 Unsung, I guess, depending on where you live. If you live in Norway, it's sung all over the place.
It's like a top 40 hit there. It's sung so much.
Well, it is now.

Speaker 16 Yeah.

Speaker 11 Yeah. It took a little while, didn't it, weirdly? Yeah.
But here in the U.S., we don't know about it as much because we were kind of tangential to it, if at all.

Speaker 11 It was more a joint operation between the Brits and the Norwegians, the Norwegian resistance, we should say. And the whole thing is called Operation Gunnerside.

Speaker 11 And I have to say, I want to give a big thanks to one of our listeners, Matthew Mimalt Bouchard, who um suggested this one i think back in november oh wow and it got it went right to the top of the list so here we are talking about it now in january yeah i'm sure you got that email and you're like uh unsung uh saboteur story um defeating the nazis be still my heart yeah um so the whole thing kind of starts off i think back in like 1939 when some german physicists figured out that you could split the atom through fission and release a bunch of energy And very, very quickly after that, the physicists around the world were like, this is really great.

Speaker 11 We can come up with a whole new source of energy for it. This could also be an extremely dangerous weapon.

Speaker 11 And right after that, World War II started and the Allies started working on the bomb and they assumed that the Nazis were also working on a bomb.

Speaker 11 So that's kind of like the mentality that was going on with this story really starts. Yeah, I mean, it was sort of a race to see who could get there first.
And

Speaker 11 I mean, I learned a lot researching this. I didn't know a lot about a lot of this stuff, even though we've done episodes about nuclear fission and the like.

Speaker 11 But there's more than one way to skin a cat, as it turns out, if you want to try and make

Speaker 11 a reaction big enough to cause a big boom.

Speaker 11 And one of the routes that was taken by,

Speaker 11 well, not the Americans, I guess the Germans were trying to take this route was to use something called heavy water,

Speaker 11 aka,

Speaker 11 how would you say that? Deuterium oxide?

Speaker 11 Okay.

Speaker 11 D2O, which is like H2O, it's like regular water, this heavy water is, except instead of a normal hydrogen atom there, as in H2O, that is now replaced by a hydrogen isotope, deuterium, which makes it literally heavier.

Speaker 11 Yeah, and the reason why is because deuterium has a neutron where hydrogen doesn't. That's the only difference.

Speaker 11 I mean, it's still, you could cook with it, you could bathe in it, you probably wouldn't really notice any difference because it's

Speaker 11 two atomic units heavier. So it's not like you would be crushed down to the shower floor if you had it running through your house or anything.
Or water balloon fight. Kid.

Speaker 11 That kid's using heavy water. Exactly.
Giving kids black eyes at that thing. Yeah.

Speaker 11 So, but the reason that it was useful or is useful still in nuclear reactions is because of that neutron that it has, right?

Speaker 11 So when you carry out a nuclear reaction that produces an explosion you have an uncontrolled nuclear reaction that's the one that where it just goes kaboom and a huge amount of energy is released at once yeah that's the whole point yes for the bomb part but to make the stuff that actually blows up usually plutonium you have to carry out controlled nuclear reactions and to do to make it controlled to kind of bring some order to the chaos and slow things down just enough that it will never explode, yet it will still produce energy that you can use to create plutonium if you bash uranium with a bunch of neutrons.

Speaker 11 You add a moderator and heavy water is a moderator because all those fast neutrons bouncing around will knock into the heavy water and it will transfer energy to the heavy water's neutrons.

Speaker 11 But it slows the process down. And in the same way, you couldn't use regular water because regular water would be like, oh, thanks for the free neutron, chump, and turn into heavy water, I guess.
So

Speaker 11 regular water wouldn't work. Heavy water would work.
The problem is, is heavy water is really, really rare.

Speaker 11 Yeah, it's super rare. And it takes a long time to get just a little bit of it.
I think it's like if you're just looking at a regular water source,

Speaker 11 there's one

Speaker 11 deuterium oxide molecule for about every 20 million regular ones.

Speaker 11 So it's not needle in a haystack territory, molecularly speaking, but it's not far off.

Speaker 11 The Germans went the route of Heavywater as their moderator. The Americans looked around for a moderator and they said, what about Josh Clark? He's a pretty level-headed guy.

Speaker 11 I just show up with my note cards in a blazer.

Speaker 11 By the way, our first sidetrack of the year, I reminded Ruby last night that we had a TV show for the probably 15th time in our life, and she was like, you did?

Speaker 11 And we tried again and actually watched an entire episode which one uh we watched the the one with uh john hodgman and also starring my neighbor uh catherine uh which was the final episode how we wrote it um but not the final episode and how it aired right

Speaker 11 we won't get into that but i have to say dude you were like pretty good and a lot of that as an actor and i was not. I disagree.
You're always so hard on yourself. You were great, man.

Speaker 11 You were were at least as good as I was.

Speaker 11 That's to say you were middling. I think, I think you're,

Speaker 11 it's very nice of you to say, but like from an, I think I had a real like outside point of view last night. I was like, you know, Josh was pretty good in a lot of this.
And Emily said, he really was.

Speaker 11 And I said, I never felt that comfortable and like I was doing a good job. Like every once in a while, I was okay, but I thought, I think you had.
real possibilities as an actor. Well, thank you.

Speaker 11 I appreciate that. It was probably from my year's spin as an emo drama kid.
It was pretty good. Thanks.

Speaker 11 And Ruby made it through the episode, and I was like, hey, that's our neighbor, and that's John. You know, John.
So that, I think, you know, helped hold our interest a little bit more.

Speaker 11 Yeah, that was like the space one, right?

Speaker 11 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a good one.
It was pretty good.

Speaker 11 So long way of saying, you were not available as moderator because you weren't born yet. So the U.S.
ended up pursuing graphite as a moderator. Either one can be used.
We went graphite. The Germans,

Speaker 11 I guess we'll get to the reason they went with hardwater toward the end, right? Yes. And tag that in the end? Yeah, I think so.
All right. So

Speaker 11 anyway, hard water is what they're after. And as it turns out, there was a chemist in Norway named Leif Trondstad.
Leif T.

Speaker 11 Leif T. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 11 Who understood how to find these molecules in the best way possible because he was doing it for a different reason there, right?

Speaker 11 Yeah. So Trondstad was one of these early people who was like, hey, this is weird and different and new and we can figure out how to get at least very small amounts of it.

Speaker 11 And there's got to be some cool uses for this, like scientific non-weapony uses. And one of the ones that he thought of very early on was to use it as a tracer.

Speaker 11 Which I guess you give somebody a glass of heavy water and then, you know, look at their kidneys and see if there's heavy water coming out of them and be like, well, there's your leak. Right.

Speaker 11 That's what I think.

Speaker 11 Yeah, exactly. So that's why he was pursuing it.
And he was doing that for a company called Vimork Norsk. Not Norst or Norst, Norsk with a K, hydro plant.

Speaker 11 And that was in the county of, of course, Telemark. Right.

Speaker 11 In the country of?

Speaker 11 I guess Norway, right? Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 11 You got a word like Norsk confronting you you're talking norway yeah so he's at work producing a few milliliters of that uh what like every day or so yeah from like liters and liters and gallons of water they would just get the tiniest amounts because i still don't quite understand how they were doing it but essentially they were separating out this one in 20 million molecule of heavy water from regular mountain water that norse black magic yeah and so like the whole plant was originally a hydroelectric power plant.

Speaker 11 And then they converted to using electrolysis to,

Speaker 11 I think, create ammonia, which is very handy in fertilizers and explosives. And then it was Trondstadt who was like, we need to set up basically a separate heavy water operation.

Speaker 11 So by the time World War II broke out, the plant at Vermork,

Speaker 11 I'm pretty sure I said that right. Vermork and Vermindi.

Speaker 11 Vermork and Mindy. Vermork and Vermindi.
I got it. Okay.
It just took a second. I was like, well, I'm going to laugh at it.

Speaker 11 I was making sure I didn't screw something else up. Sorry.

Speaker 11 That's a quality joke. Thank you.

Speaker 11 By that time, that plant was the world leader in heavy water production. That's right.
All right. So park that to the side.

Speaker 11 They're producing heavy water at a rate no one had ever seen, like a cupful a day.

Speaker 11 And World War II begins in 1939. And

Speaker 11 like I said, the Germans were like, hey, we should try and get on this heavy water train.

Speaker 11 And they didn't, this, not why they invaded Norway. They invaded Norway because they were Nazis.

Speaker 11 Norway was neutral, had declared themselves neutral. But in April of 1940, they invaded anyway and were defeated pretty quickly.
It took a couple of months, even though they had help from the Allies.

Speaker 11 They were no match for the German army.

Speaker 11 And the Germans did as they do. They established a Nazi government there, and the people did not like that because they're Norwegian.
They were like, no, no, no we're gonna resist

Speaker 11 they went on strike here and there they didn't cooperate in other ways to kind of just you know get in the way of progress of Nazi progress and so the Nazi says all right martial law has been declared if you resist you will be put to death and so a lot of Norwegians left obviously uh fought from other places and a lot of them said you know what we're going to stay here and maybe work with the allies uh kind of undercover as moles yeah it's like a secret resistance, right?

Speaker 11 And one of those people was Trondstad,

Speaker 11 at least at first. And then it became clear that he basically needed to get out of Dodge.
So he ditched and went to, I think he went straight to the UK

Speaker 11 because after the Nazis set up this program, like it was, it was not a pleasant place to be when they took over Norway.

Speaker 11 And that whole thing, Chuck, reminded me of, do you remember way, way, way early in the podcast, we stumbled upon Simo Haya, the White Death, death, the Finnish sniper who was just like a farm boy, who like I think killed more Russians than anybody else in the war.

Speaker 11 Uh-huh.

Speaker 11 Yeah, that's reminded you of that guy. Yeah, I just remembered Simo Haya, so I thought I'd give him a shout out.
Yeah, but I'm surprised you called up that name. Nice work.

Speaker 11 So, but Leif Trondstad, he became like a really valuable asset because this guy is like the world leader in heavy water production. Yeah.

Speaker 11 Who has all of the inside dirt on the place where the most heavy water is being produced.

Speaker 11 And it's very clear now that the Nazis have taken over this plant and stepped it up from like a few milliliters a day to like, I think a few kilograms of heavy water a day,

Speaker 11 that they have designs on making an atomic bomb. And with the Allies,

Speaker 11 the three words, Nazi atomic bomb, was among the most frightening combination of words you could possibly come up with.

Speaker 11 And even today, you know, you're like, God, a Nazi atomic bomb, that'd be horrible.

Speaker 11 And then you remember, oh, yeah, the Americans dropped two atomic bombs on population centers, and that was pretty bad, too. Yet still, somehow a Nazi atomic bomb seems even worse.
Yeah, it does.

Speaker 11 So he, like you said, went to the UK.

Speaker 11 There he met up in real life with the intelligence people he had been working with, you know, on the down low from a long distance, which I imagine was a pretty fun meeting. Sure.

Speaker 11 They probably had some tea and caught up in person.

Speaker 11 And he started training these commando units to be saboteurs to eventually do their saboteur work in Norway. And the whole time was staying in contact with his allies at the plant there at V-Mork.

Speaker 11 And eventually, and we're just going to say these names.

Speaker 11 Again, I wish we could all nickname them all to make it easier to keep up with. But one of the guys there that he kept in touch with, who will play a part in this story, is named Einar Skinnerland.

Speaker 11 That's pretty easy. Yeah.

Speaker 11 Swallow Blue was his code name. And that feels like a pretty good place for a break.
I think it is, yes. All right.
So we do remember how to do this. And we'll be right back right after this.

Speaker 17 Want to learn about a pterosaur and call it pterodactyl. How to take a perfect movement, all about fractals.

Speaker 18 Don't explain everything to your brain. Explodes, chuck.
And yeah, that's dummy should know.

Speaker 18 Word up, up, Jerry.

Speaker 20 Attention, parents and grandparents.

Speaker 9 If you're looking for a gift that's more than just a toy, give them something that inspires confidence and adventure all year long.

Speaker 9 Give them a Guardian bike, the easiest, safest, and number one kids bike on the market.

Speaker 11 Yeah, with USA-made kids-specific frames and patented safety technology, kids are learning to ride in just one day with no training wheels needed.

Speaker 11 It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids' bike and the New York Times and Wirecutters' top pick three years in a row.

Speaker 15 That's right.

Speaker 23 My daughter has a Guardian bike and she loves it, and that thing was really easy to put together.

Speaker 13 And get this: this holiday season, Guardian is offering their biggest deal of the year: over 40% in savings on all bikes, plus $100 in free accessories.

Speaker 9 Guardian bikes have become one of the most sought-after gifts of the season, and inventory is going fast, so don't wait.

Speaker 13 Join over a half a million families who've discovered the magic of Guardian.

Speaker 14 Visit guardianbikes.com to shop now.

Speaker 6 On eBay, every find has a story.

Speaker 5 Like if you're looking for a vintage band tee, not just a tee, the band tee from the last show your favorite band ever played.

Speaker 25 You wore it everywhere, then your girlfriend started wearing it, which was cute, until she dumped you and took it with her, which was not so cute.

Speaker 11 Yeah, well, anyway, now you're on eBay, and there it is. Same tee from the same tour, still living in your memory, rent-free forever.

Speaker 6 See, the things you love have a way of finding their way back to you.

Speaker 5 But eBay isn't just for getting whatever your ex-boyfriend or girlfriend stole back, right?

Speaker 11 No, it's also for that rare championship foul ball you caught, then heroically gave to the kid next to you.

Speaker 11 And where else are you going to find your first car, the one you wish you'd never sold, but now finally get the chance to take it back home for good this time?

Speaker 6 So, shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story: eBay, things people love.

Speaker 11 Imagine a vacation where everything's taken care of.

Speaker 11 Virgin Voyage's all-in-voyage pricing includes over $1,000 in value with Wi-Fi, 20-plus dining options, group fitness classes, and entertainment all included.

Speaker 26 That's right, it's luxury without the hidden charges.

Speaker 8 These are kid-free cruises built for adults where wellness, nightlife, and unforgettable experiences come together.

Speaker 6 Set sail this winter from Miami for week-long Caribbean escapes to Grand Cayman, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, or the Dominican Republic.

Speaker 4 Plus, soak up sun at their exclusive beach club in Bimini.

Speaker 11 And in 2025 and 2026, they're going even further. Think Aruba, St.
Lucia, and even new routes from New York, LA, and Seattle aboard their newest ship, Brilliant Lady.

Speaker 11 With themed sailings, music, and parties all year long, there's never a dull moment on board. It's no wonder they're award-winning.
Again, book now at virginvoyages.com or contact your travel advisor.

Speaker 11 Chuck, have you seen that movie, The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare? It's like a newish Guy Ritchie movie. No, it's pretty good, actually.

Speaker 11 All right. It's like an easy watch.
Like, there's it's not some big, huge, sweeping epic or something you have to really, you know, keep up with. It's just a kind of an interesting guy Richie movie.

Speaker 11 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 11 Well, I would call Snatch kind of convoluted. Okay.
Well, sure, with the accents. Sure.

Speaker 11 But

Speaker 11 there actually was something called the Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare. That was the nickname for it.
It was called the Special Operations Executive, officially.

Speaker 11 And they basically trained saboteurs. So that's who Leif Trondstad threw his law in with.

Speaker 11 And one of the first things they did for the Norwegians was send them to Scotland and have them train in like extreme weather as much as they could.

Speaker 11 But I'm thinking like the Norwegians would be like, this is like summer to us. What is this? Like they, I don't don't see why they would need to train in Scotland, but trained they were.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 And the reason why they were trained for extreme weather and extreme conditions is because of the location of the Vimark

Speaker 11 power plant, or I guess heavy water plant. It was in a really forbidding place that you would not want to go to without like a car.

Speaker 11 Yeah, it was tough. I would say you'd need one of those cool old army jeeps if you wanted to get there back then.

Speaker 11 It was surrounded by a plateau, a mountain plateau called, here we go,

Speaker 11 Hardanga Vida. Perfect.
That's got to mean danger or something. I think it actually means like wide mountain plateau.

Speaker 11 Danger.

Speaker 11 I looked it up because I thought so too. I was like, this got to be like the name of a god that's going to kill you or something.
Yeah, hardanger. It means like

Speaker 11 it means high mountain plateau. I think Vida might be a plateau.
Really?

Speaker 11 Maybe Hardanger. I don't know.
So, wait, so the

Speaker 11 what was the guy's name? Ricky,

Speaker 11 I can't remember, but he was saying, like, living the plateau loco.

Speaker 11 Oh, God, Ricky Martin. Ricky Martin, yeah.
Ricky Martin. Yeah.
From Menudo.

Speaker 11 That's right.

Speaker 11 Shout out to Menudo. You knew that was coming.

Speaker 11 I did not. Not that they were going to make an appearance.

Speaker 11 All right, so it was surrounded by that mountain plateau. It is a very, very cold place.
I think Livia dug up this kind of old factoid. It freezes flames in the fires is how cold it was there.

Speaker 11 Not literally, of course, but you know, those Norwegians are with a turn of a phrase.

Speaker 11 So Americans came in and they said, why don't we just drop a bunch of bombs on this plant? What's your problem? Right. With these saboteurs.
And they said, no.

Speaker 11 Tron said, it was like,

Speaker 11 we've got ammonia tanks there, liquid ammonia. You're definitely going to kill a bunch of civilians nearby.
And all this stuff is underground, under concrete and metal in these bunkers.

Speaker 11 And it probably wouldn't destroy everything you wanted to destroy anyway.

Speaker 11 He also, you know, didn't say this out loud, but was like, I don't want you to destroy the only hard water plant we have because this is a valuable thing. And all of a sudden, you would kind of own...

Speaker 11 not the patent, but the process for that. Yeah.
And after the war, who knows who's going to need that stuff?

Speaker 11 Exactly. Yeah.
It was a little bit of national pride, too, that was driving it. So he actually talked him out of it.

Speaker 11 The Allies or the Americans, I guess, were put off for a little while. And they're like, all right, you go ahead and do your little sabotage thing.
Let's see how you do.

Speaker 11 So that whole group of Norwegian resistance fighters was called Company Ling.

Speaker 11 And Company Ling kind of made it over as the group of trained saboteurs from the Special Operations Executive. So Company Ling,

Speaker 11 they launched an operation, Operation Grouse, great operation name. Yeah.
But they apparently the SOA didn't think so because they renamed it Operation Swallow. Yeah.

Speaker 11 And the whole thing was led by a guy named Jens Anton Poulsen, which I think I nailed just then. Except it's Jens.
Oh man.

Speaker 11 I semi-nailed it. No, you had it except for that, but that's okay.
Okay.

Speaker 11 So Jens Anton Poulsen led, I think, three other resistance fighters who parachuted back in Norway and essentially just became backwoodsmen for months, setting up like a camp literally in like a trapper's cabin and lived off hunting reindeer and just basically became the first little toehold of this operation of Norwegian resistance fighters coming back to sabotage the Wehrmark plant.

Speaker 11 Yes, exactly. So they're there.
They set up their camp. They're eating reindeer.
It's very sad for reindeer. Sad but delicious.

Speaker 11 You've You've never had reindeer, have you? Yeah, a couple times. Really? No.
I was about to say, where the heck do you even get reindeer?

Speaker 11 I don't know. I'm sure somebody sells reindeer meat in like somewhere weird.
Like Missouri or something. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 11 I'm sure there's people in Maine right now that are like, you've never had reindeer?

Speaker 11 We always have some across the pond here. Right, exactly.

Speaker 11 So about a month after that, they launched another operation, Operation Freshmen, because they were like, these guys are going to need some real, you know, some muscle behind them.

Speaker 11 So they sent in two air gliders with 39 British soldiers, and they were just kind of coming in, you know, behind them as backup. It did not work out so well, though.

Speaker 11 One of the planes crashed into a mountain and killed everybody on board. The other one crashed into the ground.

Speaker 11 not where they were supposed to land, but a distance from that. And it didn't kill everybody, but they, you know, they saw this happen.
The Gestapo found the survivors and executed them

Speaker 11 basically on the spot and also found a map that showed that they were headed for the hard water plant.

Speaker 11 They didn't locate those original people and they just sort of stayed there, you know, hunkering down in that cabin for a while and surviving undetected.

Speaker 11 Yeah, so Operation Freshman was like you said, it was the idea was to just storm the heavy water plant, overwhelm it, and blow it up.

Speaker 11 And they decided instead, okay, instead of sending 39 soldiers with a ton of equipment, including bicycles, I read, we'll just try a more subtle touch. So

Speaker 11 they went to, oh man, Joaquin Rundenberg,

Speaker 11 who was 23 at the time. And they're like, you're basically an old man in World War II standards.
Why don't you lead a team for Operation Gunnerside?

Speaker 11 And this is finally the operation that this whole episode is based on.

Speaker 11 And it was a small tactical saboteur team team who went to the heavy water plant to destroy the Vermark's heavy water production capabilities. I love this kind of thing.

Speaker 11 It's just the kind of thing. And if you're thinking, oh, man, why isn't there a movie about this? There was an older movie with Kirk Douglas that I don't think, you know, set the world on fire.

Speaker 11 But I think this could go for maybe a Guy Richie update. Totally.
Yeah. I doubt if he would do it after the other one, but you know.
I don't know.

Speaker 11 I don't think he's opposed to making a sequel or a reboot. I mean, Snatch was basically locked stock and two smoking barrels done over again.

Speaker 11 Yeah, he made a lot of those. There are several of those Sherlock Holmes movies, I think, right? No, Lockstock and Two Smoking Barrels.
No.

Speaker 11 Oh, I see. You were just kind of taking a little sidestep in the logical direction, right? Yeah.

Speaker 11 I didn't follow. First one back.

Speaker 11 Yep, there you go. So, yeah, I think the first one was pretty good.
I don't know about the second one. Was that any good? I didn't see any of them.
The first one was not bad.

Speaker 11 If you don't let yourself stop and think, like, who would have the audacity to make Sherlock Holmes like

Speaker 11 a rough and tumble action hero and just kind of give yourself over to it? It's pretty good. Yeah.
And what, you know, I can also recommend for kids,

Speaker 11 especially younger girls, Enola Holmes. The Enola Holmes movies are pretty good.
Both of them are good. Yeah, I enjoyed those.
We have to do a Sherlock Holmes episode at least.

Speaker 11 We haven't done that? No, not as far as we can.

Speaker 11 Yeah, we totally have to because I don't really know anything about much of that. It's going to be like our chess or our soccer episode, though.
I have a feeling.

Speaker 11 Are there

Speaker 11 Holmesys that get upset? It's a whole hornet's nest we're going to stick our heads in.

Speaker 11 What are the...

Speaker 11 What are the clown, what's the clown band?

Speaker 11 The Insane Clown Posse. Yeah, but what are are their people called? The Juggalos? Juggalos.
Yeah. The guy who does my hair is a former Juggalo.

Speaker 11 I think those are two words you like to hear together. Former Juggalo? Yeah, yeah.
It's like former Holmesy.

Speaker 11 Yeah. After they leave that world behind, you know.

Speaker 11 Hey, I don't think the other people

Speaker 11 let you leave that world behind. Oh, boy.
Yeah. It's threatening.
So, where were we, Chuck? Oh, yeah, Gunner Side. Yeah, we are at Operation Gunner Side.
This guy, Rundberg, he didn't know even why

Speaker 11 that plant was a target. They basically just said, here, old chap, we want you to go destroy some pipes at the plant, and the people that tried before you all died, and you might as well.
Pip, pip.

Speaker 11 Yeah, that's basically it. That's all the information he had, but he was game.
He was that kind of guy. Yeah, I mean, they accepted cyanide pills as part of this operation.

Speaker 11 And yeah, they had no idea what they were doing. They just knew they had to go blow up some pipes, and that was that.

Speaker 11 Like, this is how dedicated these people were, that they were willing to sacrifice their life to try to blow up some pipes because the Brits told them it was going to help cripple the Nazi war effort.

Speaker 11 So, I think there was five of them that parachuted in, just like the Operation Swallow people had before,

Speaker 11 but they were miles, miles away from the landing site. They just maybe got blown off course or something like that.

Speaker 11 And it took them five days of trudging through the snow, although I think they might have had skis,

Speaker 11 to find the

Speaker 11 Operation Swallow people who'd been sitting there eating reindeer the whole time.

Speaker 11 And even when they found them in this trapper's cabin and hooked up with them, and now there's nine people in this operation, they were still 40 miles away from the heavy water plant. And again,

Speaker 11 it's like snowy in February in Norway. You can just imagine.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 11 There's a suspension bridge. There's one way you could get through, but of course, they had Nazi guards there, so that wasn't the best route.

Speaker 11 The other options were like a literal minefield, or I guess mine, mine forest that they could have crossed through at great peril, or they could hike all the way down into the gorge, which had like a half-frozen river running through it, and then go to the plant that way and then hike back up.

Speaker 11 And so they said, they took a vote, I guess, and they said, minefield, no good. Nazis on the bridge, no good.
Let's just get on our skis as we do and hike down that gorge.

Speaker 11 And that's how they did it um we do need to mention one little side thing that we failed to mention uh is that before this all happened when uh rundenberg was i guess debriefed and sort of getting his act together to go he went into a hardware store and apparently on a whim as the story goes bought some heavy-duty uh bolt cutters like metal bolt cutters

Speaker 11 And to just park that right there, because you know, if you introduce bolt cutters, I guess in this case, Act II,

Speaker 11 you know, they're going to cut something in act three.

Speaker 11 Right. So he's got those bolt cutters, and they decide to go down into the gorge as their route to the hard water plant.

Speaker 11 Yeah, and again, not just going down into a gorge, crossing a half-frozen river, then climbing up a cliff to get to the top of the gorge on the other side where the heavy water plant was.

Speaker 11 And apparently, that route was such an unlikely route that the Nazis didn't even bother guarding the gorge. No, nobody would go down there.
Exactly. So February 27th, they made it

Speaker 11 40 miles to their target. I think it was the night, like right before midnight.

Speaker 11 This team of nine saboteurs from Company Liña, the Norwegian resistance, are sitting there outside of the Bermark power plant,

Speaker 11 figuring out exactly how they're going to get in. And they decided that they would split up.

Speaker 11 There were five of them. And as they were sitting outside, they were faced with their first obstacle, which was a fence.
And apparently the Brits had said, there's a fence. So here's a handsaw.

Speaker 11 And the guy who was in charge, who was it? Rundberg? Yeah, yeah. His second in command, Knut Hochlied.

Speaker 11 We're like running through these Norwegian names, man. Hey, that sounds pretty good to me.
Okay. So, and I know it's Knut.

Speaker 11 I always thought it was Newt, but it's Knut because I watched this cool little Nova special. And he was interviewed, and they definitely said Knut.

Speaker 11 He said, Rundberg, don't you have some bolt cutters? Right.

Speaker 11 And Rundberg gave him the bolt cutters and instead of this loud, tedious, laborious hacksaw that they would have tried to use and probably gotten caught using, they just snipped right through the fence in a few minutes, thanks to Rundberg's foresight back in Cambridge.

Speaker 26 That's right. Snip, snip.

Speaker 11 So that paid off pretty quickly. Much more.
Yeah, that was still Act Two.

Speaker 11 Well, I think I got the setting wrong. If you introduce bolt cutters in Act Two, they're going to snip something in Act II.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 They're on the property now.

Speaker 11 Five of the nine provide cover. The other two, and they had Tommy guns.
They had chloroform.

Speaker 11 They were set for an attack if need be.

Speaker 11 And they were keeping a watch on the barracks because there weren't

Speaker 11 hundreds of German soldiers. I get the idea if they were going in with the initial 29, that it was probably a couple of dozen, maybe.
I mean, that's just a guess.

Speaker 11 I don't even know if it was that many.

Speaker 11 I mean, as important as this heavy water plant was to the atomic program in Germany, it was so remote that they were just like, you know, I think it's going to take a few people. We got mines.

Speaker 11 There's a gorge. We got people on the bridge.
It's fine. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So they were keeping a watch on the barracks. They were keeping a watch on that bridge for the guardsmen there.

Speaker 11 and just sort of waiting around for any, you know, activity so they could get those Tommy guns out or maybe silently chloroform a Nazi, which was a dream of any Norwegian saboteur.

Speaker 11 You know they want to do that. So yeah.
So the other four guys split into two pairs. They each had, and I get the idea they split up

Speaker 11 in case, and they each had enough to like blow it up in case like two of them got caught or killed. The other two could still complete the job.
Right.

Speaker 11 They got in through a second gate. And they had arranged with one of the co-workers there to, I guess, you know, one of the inside moles to leave a cellar door open.

Speaker 11 But unfortunately, that person called in sick that day. And I guess didn't seem to think like, hey, I had this important other task to do.

Speaker 11 And Tronstadt had previously told them, though, like, if you can't get in that way, there's a cable shaft. You can probably slip through.
And that's what they ended up using.

Speaker 11 I just want to circle back and emphasize the fact that this man was a linchpin to a sabotage plan. All he had to do was show up to work and leave a door open.
He could have gone home right after that.

Speaker 11 Yeah. And been like, I just threw up.
I have to go get out of here. Right.
And my guess, this is 1943. There's an 85% chance that his illness was a severe hangover,

Speaker 11 which makes it even worse. Yeah, probably so.
So, yeah, luckily, yes, they found that that hatch was open in the cable shaft and they basically slid through.

Speaker 11 The two who made it through the cable shaft was Ruinberg, the leader, and a guy named Frederick. Frederick.
Yeah, Kaiser. Yeah, Frederick.
Frederick. Not Frederick.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 11 Eat your heart out, Frederick. It's probably Frederick.

Speaker 7 Friedrich.

Speaker 11 Yeah. Would be my guess.
I like Frederick. That's how we say it in America.
Anyway, Kaiser and Rundberg, they were the ones who went down this cable shaft and they start getting busy.

Speaker 11 I think Kaiser was holding a goal. Whoa, whoa, what?

Speaker 11 They're like, we have some extra time.

Speaker 11 Sorry.

Speaker 11 Go ahead. So they, yes, and they went down a shaft even as well.

Speaker 11 And so almost immediately they found a watchman. I take him to be a Norwegian watchman, maybe.

Speaker 11 And they were like, you know, you're now our hostage. Sit there and be quiet.
And he's like, no problem. You guys do whatever you want.

Speaker 11 And despite his complicity, Kaiser was like, this is my one chance. And so he chloroformed the watchman anyway.

Speaker 11 And so as he's doing this, Roendberg went and planted the explosives on the pipes just as he was told to do.

Speaker 11 And right about then, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, there's a explosion of glass as a window shatters. And Rundberg and Kaiser and the chloroformed guard all turn and look.

Speaker 11 And the other two men from the other explosives team come in through the window.

Speaker 13 That's right. They're like, it's just us guys.

Speaker 11 We're all here together so we can get this thing bombed up quicker.

Speaker 11 They set up those explosives, the four of them, I guess, at this point.

Speaker 11 And the fuses at the time were two-minute fuses. That would have given enough time to get the heck out of there.

Speaker 11 Ruinberg said, no, I really want to make sure we hear this thing go off. So we're going to go down to 30 seconds.
I imagine everyone said, oh, how about a minute?

Speaker 11 He said, no, 30 seconds is plenty. So they're getting ready to light the fuses.
The guard that they had at gunpoint said, can I get those glasses? Yeah.

Speaker 11 You know, if they blow up,

Speaker 11 my optometrist has quit and retired. I'm not going to be able to replace those things very easily.
So they said, sure, get your glasses. And at that point, another civilian employee,

Speaker 11 Norwegian, obviously, comes into the room and is now another temporary prisoner.

Speaker 11 Rondenberg lights those fuses, counts to 10, which means they only have 20 seconds, and then says, run to the two civilians.

Speaker 11 They get the heck out of there as well.

Speaker 11 I reckon in the movie, Guy Ritchie would really have to sort of fudge things because what is not exciting in a movie like this is when

Speaker 11 is all you hear. And that's kind of all they heard.

Speaker 11 It wasn't a huge explosion it's not like they were blowing up this entire plant like you would probably do in a movie right they were just trying to damage these pipes and he said that uh later on he said they heard a tiny insignificant pop uh also because it was underground under that concrete and stuff uh windows did break though enough at least to rouse some sleeping nazis uh this part is very movie like because the four that were guarding um kind of watched as a half-dressed nazi gets out and was like oh do i hear anything do I hear anything?

Speaker 11 But apparently that was a pretty noisy plant, so he just goes back to bed. I can't help but imagining like a Sergeant Schultz type

Speaker 11 stumbling out. Totally.
So yeah, it wasn't a big deal.

Speaker 11 And as a matter of fact, I mean, it turned out to be a big deal, but like, yeah, it didn't cause like that huge explosion where guards start coming out of nowhere and you know, there's alarms going off and searchlights coming on.

Speaker 11 It wasn't anything like that. And in fact, all nine people who were the saboteurs in this operation got away.
They escaped scot-free.

Speaker 11 And in retrospect, not a single bullet was fired and not a single person died in this highly successful, amazingly daring sabotage operation. That's right.
But that is not the end of the story.

Speaker 11 So maybe we should take our second break. Yes.

Speaker 11 And we'll come back and finish up right after this.

Speaker 17 Want to learn about a pterosaur and call it pterodactyl.

Speaker 18 How to take a perfect movement, all about fractals.

Speaker 18 Don't explain everything to your brain. Explode is chuck.

Speaker 19 And yeah. This chummy should know.

Speaker 20 Attention, parents and grandparents.

Speaker 9 If you're looking for a gift that's more than just a toy, give them something that inspires confidence and adventure all year long.

Speaker 10 Give them a Guardian bike, the easiest, safest, and number one kids bike on the market.

Speaker 11 Yeah, with USA-made kids-specific frames and patented safety technology, kids are learning to ride in just one day with no training wheels needed.

Speaker 11 It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids' bike and the New York Times and Wirecutters' top pick three years in a row.

Speaker 15 That's right.

Speaker 23 My daughter has a Guardian bike and she loves it, and that thing was really easy to put together.

Speaker 12 And get this: this holiday season, Guardian is offering their biggest deal of the year: over 40% in savings on all bikes, plus $100 in free accessories.

Speaker 9 Guardian bikes have become one of the most sought-after gifts of the season, and inventory is going fast, so don't wait.

Speaker 13 Join over a half a million families who've discovered the magic of Guardian.

Speaker 14 Visit guardianbikes.com to shop now.

Speaker 6 On eBay, every find has a story.

Speaker 5 Like if you're looking for a vintage band tee, not just a tea, the band tee from the last show your favorite band ever played.

Speaker 25 You wore it everywhere, then your girlfriend started wearing it, which was cute until she dumped you and took it with her, which was not so cute.

Speaker 11 Yeah, well, anyway, now you're on eBay, and there it is. Same tee from the same tour, still living in your memory, rent-free forever.

Speaker 6 See, the things you love have a way of finding their way back to you.

Speaker 5 But eBay isn't just for getting whatever your ex-boyfriend or girlfriend stole back, right?

Speaker 11 No, it's also for that rare championship foul ball you caught, then heroically gave to the kid next to you. And where else are you going to find your first car?

Speaker 11 The one you wish you'd never sold, but now finally get the chance to take it back home for good this time.

Speaker 6 So shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 11 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 11 Imagine a vacation where everything's taken care of.

Speaker 11 Virgin Voyage's all-in-voyage pricing includes over $1,000 in value with Wi-Fi, 20-plus dining options, group fitness classes, and entertainment all included.

Speaker 26 That's right, it's luxury without the hidden charges.

Speaker 8 These are kid-free cruises built for adults where wellness, nightlife, and unforgettable experiences come together.

Speaker 7 Set sail this winter from Miami for week-long Caribbean escapes to Grand Cayman, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, or the Dominican Republic.

Speaker 4 Plus, soak up sun at their exclusive beach club in Bimini.

Speaker 11 And in 2025 and 2026, they're going even further. Think Aruba, St.
Lucia, and even new routes from New York, LA, and Seattle aboard their newest ship, Brilliant Lady.

Speaker 11 With themed sailings, music, and parties all year long, there's never a dull moment on board. It's no wonder they're award-winning.
Again, book now at virginvoyages.com or contact your travel advisor.

Speaker 11 All right, so as you said,

Speaker 11 the saboteurs got away. I think one of them, Polson, took off to Scotland by sea.

Speaker 11 Rundberg and

Speaker 11 the rest of the gang stayed on their skis, as the Norwegians do. They skied about 200 miles, which is like nothing for them.

Speaker 11 They skied to Sweden, in fact, with Nazis chasing them. They had planes above trying to locate them.
Like that part would be a pretty good part of the movie, I guess.

Speaker 11 But they got away, and there was a German, head of the German Special Forces in Norway, who called it the most splendid coup.

Speaker 11 However, it only took a few months before the Nazis were able to restart production at the plant. I think this happened in February.

Speaker 11 So in May of that same year, they had ramped back up to full capacity, which seems like a big disappointment.

Speaker 11 But no, because here come the Americans with their initial plan to just bomb the plant.

Speaker 11 And just like they were warned, it did not do a ton of damage to anyone but the 22 Norwegian civilians who were killed. Yeah,

Speaker 11 like this, this heavy water plant was in this basement of a power plant. So it was not easy to get to as far as like aerial bombs are concerned.
Yeah. Especially the bombs back then, you know?

Speaker 11 Yeah, for for real. But the thing is, it did show the Nazis that, like, hey, this remote, isolated, actually surprisingly

Speaker 11 vulnerable planet that's like the one source of our heavy water, we should probably stop creating heavy water there and move the operations to Germany. Yeah.
So they did.

Speaker 11 And remember, the Nazi heavy water program is set back a few months.

Speaker 11 And this is at a time where the Allies are racing in the Manhattan Project to create the atomic bomb, assuming the Nazis are in the same race as them, the Allies understand that, like, we can do this in like two, three years.

Speaker 11 So, to set back a Nazi atomic program three months is an enormous setback in a two or three year race to become the first to come up with an atomic bomb.

Speaker 11 So, from that standpoint, even at the time, they were like, that was a very successful operation, even though, like you said, the Nazis got back up to

Speaker 11 full capacity in just a couple of months. But as we said, they were moving everything to Germany.
And I guess the company Linga crew, the Norwegian freedom fighters,

Speaker 11 they were keeping an eye on all the movements of the heavy water from, I guess, their moles inside the heavy water plant.

Speaker 11 And they knew that the Nazis were going to move the heavy water and when they were going to do it and how they were going to do it. That's right.

Speaker 11 So they come up with another plan to further thwart their efforts. And they determined the best way to do this was to sabotage the ferry that's going to be ferrying everything over

Speaker 11 to Germany. So they knew it would cost some civilian lives, but they figured that was their best chance to get it before it even had a chance to get you know set up again.

Speaker 11 And old Knut is back on the scene.

Speaker 11 He was the second in command there at Gunnerside, if you remember. And he was leading the team this time.
He had been promoted, I guess.

Speaker 11 And in February 1944, they set off explosions on the bow of that ship. It was a ferry called the Hydro.
And 14 Norwegians, sadly, were killed, along with four Germans.

Speaker 11 And this, again, was a big success.

Speaker 11 They, for a long time, they weren't even positive that there was heavy water, or they couldn't prove at least that there was heavy water on board.

Speaker 11 And there was a German heavy water expert after the war that said, no, those were just,

Speaker 11 those were dummies, dummy.

Speaker 11 And I guess to try and undermine the idea that it was a success.

Speaker 11 But PBS Nova to the rescue in 2003,

Speaker 11 they organized a salvage of one of those barrels from that sunken ferry, and they proved that it contained heavy water. So it was a great success after all.

Speaker 11 That was the Nova mini documentary I watched. It was really good.
Yeah. But one of the things that they cover in that, the reason why

Speaker 11 the allies were like, maybe those were dummies, is that there were reports of survivors of that ferry sinking that barrels had been floating.

Speaker 11 Like some people were trying to like climb onto the barrels to survive. They're like, heavy water's not supposed to float in regular water.

Speaker 11 And so they were like, it's possible that this was a decoy because also intelligence showed that some heavy water did arrive in Germany.

Speaker 11 Well, it turns out, thanks to this Nova special, I'm about to spoil it,

Speaker 11 that those barrels that floated were the most pure form of heavy water that they had at Wehrmark.

Speaker 11 The barrels weren't full, and so the air inside the barrels was making them float. Wow.
Yes. So it was heavy water that they sabotaged.
They did put a dent in the amount of heavy water.

Speaker 11 I think there was a 15-ton shipment, and the Germans were only able to collect, I think, the four that were floating. So it was a big deal, too.
But again,

Speaker 11 18 people lost their lives for it, 14 of them innocent Norwegians.

Speaker 11 Yeah, and I think that's actually something they wrestle with in the NOVA documentary because they interview some of these people we've talked about. And

Speaker 11 they're trying to reconcile their guilt with

Speaker 11 how impactful the mission was, especially living for decades with that gnawing rumor in the back of their head that those had been dummy barrels.

Speaker 11 Yeah, and it resulted in the loss of so many civilian lives. Yeah, so I think they were quite relieved to find that it really was heavy water.

Speaker 11 And still, there's debate today over even with the success of Gunnerside, even with the success of that swallow group

Speaker 11 sinking of the hydro ferry,

Speaker 11 how much of an impact it really had on Germany's atomic program. And in fact how much of a program Germany had during World War II to build an atomic bomb.
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 11 The official historian of the SOE,

Speaker 11 MRD Foote, great name,

Speaker 11 said that it changed the course of the war.

Speaker 11 The fact that they were denied that regular steady supply of heavy water really put a dent in their operation.

Speaker 11 Livia very astutely points out another factor was

Speaker 11 that key scientists were uh a lot of them were jewish scientists that the nazis were using and they either escaped or were murdered

Speaker 11 uh which also slowed down the you know the germans pursuit of the bomb uh but also i think you found out too that um

Speaker 11 what was it the germans uh

Speaker 11 regretted pursuing heavy water was that what it was instead of graphite so they were basically they took a wrong turn right out of the gate with what they chose as a moderator i think like did you say earlier that the united states chose graphite right?

Speaker 11 Yeah, we used graphite. They went with heavy water, which was a mistake.
Yeah, well, they're both really great moderators, but graphite is available in abundance. You can find it anywhere, right?

Speaker 11 Sure.

Speaker 11 Heavy water is really hard to come by.

Speaker 11 So, right out of the gate, the Germans chose a moderator that was really difficult to get, and that there was only one place basically in the world that was producing it.

Speaker 11 Whereas the Americans just went out and bought a bunch of graphite at the grocery store, basically, to use as their moderator.

Speaker 11 So right away, that first hurdle the Americans overcame, the Germans ran into. And the most interesting thing is it was based on a miscalculation.

Speaker 11 Yeah, that's right. If they had have calculated correctly, then they would have known from the beginning, right?

Speaker 11 Yeah, so I think whoever conducted, I can't remember their names, but they conducted experiments on the viability. of graphite as a moderator and they basically forgot to carry a one or something.

Speaker 11 I think what it really was is they didn't factor in the influence of impurities in their graphite sample. And they concluded that graphite wasn't a very good moderator.

Speaker 11 So let's use heavy water instead. So essentially, even before the program started,

Speaker 11 the Nazi atomic program was just

Speaker 11 dead in the water, basically. Yeah, got to carry that ice.
Yes, but the Allies didn't know this.

Speaker 11 And it turns out that just the idea that the Nazis were involved in heavy water production suggested that they were were after an atomic bomb and that the Allies then were in a foot race against them.

Speaker 11 And that led to the creation of an actual atomic bomb. So the Nazis directly influenced the production of an atomic bomb, even though it wasn't theirs.

Speaker 11 The Nazis being involved in heavy water production sounds like some sort of weird Oktoberfest slogan. Right.
You'd be like, what does this mean?

Speaker 11 And they'd be like, just drink this huge gallon here and shove it. I mentioned that film, 1965's The Heroes of Telemark

Speaker 11 with Kirk Douglas as sort of a

Speaker 11 mashed up fictional character based on both Ronenberg and Trondstadt.

Speaker 11 That, like I said, wasn't like the biggest film ever, but it was an American film. So we did know about this operation more than they did in Norway until like 2015.

Speaker 11 state broadcaster NRK ran a mini-series called The Heavy Water War in 2015. And that's when a lot of Norwegians kind of first learned of this operation.
And if we're talking Trondstadt, if

Speaker 11 you want to button up his story, if you feel bad for this guy because he didn't get to parachute in and actually have feet on the ground for this kind of thing, he finally got to do that kind of thing in October of 1944.

Speaker 11 He got under that parachute for

Speaker 11 Operation Sunshine, which was

Speaker 11 protecting Norway's, some of their industrial assets and infrastructure from German saboteurs as the Nazis were on their way out. So he got his hands dirty, which he'd always wanted to do.

Speaker 11 But very sadly, the following May, I believe, in 1945, he was shot dead by the brother of a Norwegian collaborator who he was questioning. So he tragically died as well.
Yeah, which is sad.

Speaker 11 At least he did get to get to oversee and fly in on Operation Sunshine. I wonder if he got to use any chloroform.
Maybe.

Speaker 11 So, Chuck, I think that's it for the Norwegian sabotage operation Gunnerside. We haven't figured out what we're going to name this episode.
I like Olivia's title. Oh, man, it's one of the better ones.

Speaker 11 You want to go ahead and tell everyone? Yes.

Speaker 11 She titled this article, Like Water for Nazis.

Speaker 11 Pretty good. Sense of humor.
Yeah. Really good.

Speaker 11 Well, thanks to Olivia for that, and thanks to you for listening. And how about we set up a listener mail so I can thank that person too.

Speaker 11 That's right. This is from Justin Meeks about Tavern on the Green.

Speaker 11 Hey, guys.

Speaker 11 This shows you how long we've been off because I've been holding on to this one. My grandma had a wonderful related story to Tavern on the Green.

Speaker 11 She was from rural Montana and traveled to New York in the late 90s with a group of old ladies over Thanksgiving. One of her traveling group actually

Speaker 11 had sold David Letterman his Montana ranch. So they went to a taping of his show and he invited them backstage.

Speaker 11 He found out they were going to be in town for Thanksgiving and invited them to have Thanksgiving dinner with him at Tavern on the Green. What? Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 Grandma said that was one of the first Thanksgivings she could remember that she didn't eat turkey dinner because at Tavern on the Green, they had to order the steak and lobster,

Speaker 11 especially because Letterman was paying for it. Grandma never missed an episode of Letterman even before this, certainly never did afterwards.

Speaker 11 Letterman is seriously a great dude and love that grandma got to meet one of her heroes like this. Thanks for the many years of the podcast.
Keep up the great work. Come back and see us in Denver.

Speaker 11 That is from Justin Meeks. And Justin, we're going to head back to Denver at some point.

Speaker 11 But we should probably tell people, since we're getting emails, that we are not doing live shows in 2025. Yeah, including Sketchfest.
We've gotten a lot of emails from people.

Speaker 11 It's like, the Sketchfest schedule is wrong because it doesn't have stuff you should know on there, right?

Speaker 11 And yes, we're sorry to inform you. We're not going to be at Sketchfest for, what, the first time in...

Speaker 11 Many years. 10 years maybe or something? Yeah, we're just taking a down year from doing live shows.

Speaker 11 We're going to be back out there again, so fear not.

Speaker 11 We're just taking a down year, and that's like four less trips that we're going to take, and we're going to be with our family, and

Speaker 25 that's a decision we made that we feel good about.

Speaker 11 Yeah. And ironically, I just reached diamond status for 2025.
Oh, I've never been diamond. I couldn't believe it.
I got the email and I forwarded it to Yumi.

Speaker 11 I was like, well, now I know it's going to be written on my headstone. Yeah, and I'll be buried next to you and it'll just say sadly peaked at platinum.

Speaker 11 What else, man? That's it. Okay, well, thank you very much to Justin Meeks.
Justin Meeks,

Speaker 11 whose grandma has a great story and who I assume did not go on to become Letterman's stalker. Right.
I don't think so.

Speaker 11 If you want to be like Justin and email us a pretty cool story about David Letterman or otherwise, you can send it off to stuffpodcast at iHeartRadio.com.

Speaker 1 Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my HeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Speaker 20 Attention, parents and grandparents.

Speaker 9 If you're looking for a gift that's more than just a toy, give them something that inspires confidence and adventure all year long.

Speaker 9 Give them a Guardian bike, the easiest, safest, and number one kids bike on the market.

Speaker 11 Yeah, with USA-made kids-specific frames and patented safety technology, kids are learning to ride in just one day with no training wheels needed.

Speaker 11 It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids' bike and the New York Times and Wirecutters' top pick three years in a row.

Speaker 15 That's right.

Speaker 23 My daughter has a Guardian bike, and she loves it, and that thing was really easy to put together.

Speaker 12 And get this, this holiday season, Guardian is offering their biggest deal of the year, over 40% in savings on all bikes, plus $100 in free accessories.

Speaker 9 Guardian bikes have become one of the most sought-after gifts of the season, and inventory is going fast, so don't wait.

Speaker 10 Join over a half a million families who've discovered the magic of Guardian.

Speaker 14 Visit guardianbikes.com to shop now.

Speaker 11 This podcast is sponsored by PayPal. Okay, let's talk holiday shopping.
From now through December 8th, you can get 20% cash back when you pay in for with PayPal.

Speaker 11 No fees, no interest, and this limited-time offer is perfect for the Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals you've been eyeing. Save the offer in the app now.

Speaker 11 So whether you're shopping for your foodie friend or outdoorsy uncle, PayPal helps you make the most of your money this holiday.

Speaker 27 Expires December 8th. See PayPal.com slash promo terms.
Subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com/slash payin4.
PayPal Inc. NMLS 910457.

Speaker 11 Living with a rare autoimmune condition comes with challenges, but also incredible strength, especially for those living with conditions like myasthenia gravis or MG and chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, otherwise known as CIDP.

Speaker 11 Finding empowerment in the community is critical.

Speaker 11 Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production, in partnership with Argenix, explores people discovering strength in the most unexpected places.

Speaker 11 Listen to Untold Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.