Kim Philby: Greatest Liar of All Time?

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Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh and there's's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too. And this is the podcast, as just mentioned.
We call it Stuff You Should Know. And by the way, we should say to any new listeners, we're not saying you should already know this stuff.
So don't be hostile toward us about that. We're saying we think you should know this because it's so interesting.
We want to tell you about it. Yeah, we could have changed the name of the show to things that you might find interesting, but then again, you might not as well.
But that doesn't have a ring. Yeah, there's no implied dummy in the title of our podcast.
Okay. No, no, no.
We're the dummies. So I'll tell you somebody who wasn't a dummy as far as it comes to being a world-class liar.
Maybe England's greatest liar ever. It was a spy from the World War II beginning early Cold War era named Harold Kim Philby.
And if that name rings a bell, well, just sit back and enjoy this episode on a British spy. If you don't know who Kim Philby is, sit back and enjoy this episode on a British spy.
Your voice is going up like you were going to say something else. Is that it? I just wanted to replicate it perfectly.
So big thanks to Dave who helped us with this. But Dave also wanted us to shout out and we want to shout out a book by Ben McIntyre, A Spy Among Friends, Colin, Kim Philby and The Great Betrayal.
And also a miniseries that I have not watched that I think I probably will now, a six parter on Amazon MGM called A Spy Among Friends from 2023. Starring the winsome Guy Pearce.
Oh Guy Pearce as Kim Philby or Harold Adrian Russell Philby as he was born in India in 1912 because his dad was a colonialist. I can never say that word right.
I think you nailed it. So Philby Kim, he was nicknamed Kim because there was a Rudyard Kipling story, a book, I think, about a street urchin raised on the streets of India who becomes a spy.
Isn't that crazy? Yeah, it really is. Because he got this nickname as a kid, like before he knew he was going to be a spy.
Right. He wasn't out in there like, we're going to call you Kim from now on.
Yeah, he grew up spy and it was, he was nicknamed after a boy who grew up to be a spy. So it is pretty interesting.
But everyone called him Kim Philby and he was born in India in 1912. His dad was a colonialist.
Like you said, his, his sympathies actually lay with India and he eventually quit the service and went to become a, I think an advisor to this, the king of Saudi Arabia eventually. Oh, wow.
Well, at any rate, he was born to a well-heeled family. His parents were gone a lot.
He was raised by his Indian nanny. He went to Cambridge.
So he was sort of on that track of not, you know, royalty or anything, but probably aristocracy, you could say. And when he went to Cambridge, it was the early 1930s.
Pretty, pretty rocky time. The Great Depression was happening.
And that's when the fascists, especially in Germany and Italy, saw their sort of opportunity when people were wrecked by poverty to step in and start controlling things. Right.
So communism became a thing among young Cambridge intellectuals at the time. And communism was viewed as the antidote to fascism, which was on the rise at the time in the late 30s.
And the reason I was like, why? I don't understand that. because my geopolitics is seen through the view of an 80s American kid who lived through the end of the Cold War.
Yeah. But communism is all about class and social equality.
One of the defining characteristics of fascism is a rigid hierarchy. So, of course, the aristocracy of Great Britain would be fully on board with a kind of ideology that said, yes, you're at the top.
You deserve to be at the top. You should stay at the top.
And so the aristocracy at the time definitely had sympathies with the Nazis because of their fascist leanings. And that did not sit well with these young Cambridge intellectuals who had communism as a as the the ideology to spread throughout the world.
Yeah. And it was especially a way for, you know, kids to to rebel against what their parents loved, which is a classic thing that that kids and teenagers and young adults do.
And in this case, these like you said, these young Cambridge elites were like, hey, communism is where it's at. Forget the this I was about to say patriarchy, but it was really, you know, everybody, the upper class altogether.
And, you know, as far as Philby is concerned, he didn't he wasn't out there calling for a revolution or anything. And let's go burn it down.
He apparently never officially joined the Communist Party, but he was a communist through and through, like up until the very end. He was very committed to it, something he did not grow out of, like his parents probably hoped he would.
I mean, out of all of the Soviet spies in the UK at the time, he was probably the most committed communist. Yeah, and as you'll see, there were plenty of chances to go a different way and he never did.
No, for sure. So he was at Cambridge and he met with a professor and with this professor, he said, hey, I really want to help communism, you know, spread throughout the world.
What can I do? What does a young aristocratic Cambridge grad do to help communism? And this professor said, I've so in Vienna right now, they're they're battling. The communist comrades are battling a dictator named Engelbert Dolfus.
And Dolfus is a fascist dictator. And you can go to Austria and help.
I don't know how, but just go to Austria and figure it out. And he did.
Yeah, he was like, oh, I was thinking a letter campaign or something, but sure, I'll go to Austria and fight a ruthless dictator. While he was there, he went to Vienna, lovely town, by the way, one of my favorites in Europe.
He fell in love with a woman named Alice Litzy Coleman, who was another young communist. They became co-revolutionaries and they, you know, hooked up also in, you know, in a more romantic way, hugging and kissing, that kind of thing.
Okay. And Dolphus, the fascist dictator, said, all right, we got to get rid of these communists and we'll do so by whatever means we need to.
And that Litzy woman was on that that list. She was pretty well known or, you know, well known as far as the insider fascist dictators go.

And they said, all right, we got to get out of here.

They realized the writing was on the wall, so they got married. They fled to England.

And in London, he finally, Kim Philby, got in touch with a real Soviet operative at a secret meeting in Regent Park that was arranged by one of Litzy's communist friends. And it was game time.
It was on from that point forward. Yeah.
So this real life communist was a Czech academic who was undercover for the Soviets as basically a spy master. His name was Arnold Deutsch, or at least that's what he told people.
I guess that's where Germany comes up in this one. His codename and what he used to communicate with people was Otto, O-T-T-O.
Apparently, he was huge on security. He would make Philby take like three taxis at least before they would meet.
And this guy was like, OK, I can do something with you. You're like an aristocratic.
You're a member of the upper crust of British society. And right now, the upper crust of British society is if you're from them, you have total trust across the board.
Let's take advantage of that. Yeah, he was pretty ideal for that position.
But he was like, how good of an actor are you, though? Because that's what really matters if you're going to get into this. And Philby said, well, let's just say this.
One day, Guy Pearce is going to play me in a streaming series. And he was like, what does that mean? That makes no sense at all.
He said, okay, I'm a pretty good actor, and a good actor will eventually play me.

He's really got to fall into this part, you know, in such a perfect way that obviously no one's going to find out.

That's the ultimate goal of being a mole is to be a great liar.

And he was really, really good at it.

One of the things he had to do, though, was find a job to, you know, as cover. And he's like, the perfect job for this would be a journalist.
Yeah. But one other thing he had to do, too, was he had to he had to become at least outwardly what he despised the most, which was the quintessential English aristocrat.
Yeah. Right wing.
Yep. Right wing fascist sympathies that aren't particularly well hidden.
Super conservative. Very loyal to the British crown.
Yeah. Essentially everything you think of when you think of like a guy wearing a bowler hat in the 40s in Great Britain carrying an umbrella on his forearm.
Right right? Like, he did not like these people, and yet he now entered their world where he would stay essentially as a mole for years to come. And I mean, I don't really sympathize with him because of who he was and what a traitor he was.
But I do sympathize with him in the idea of having to live your life like that around people you despise and have to pretend like you like them for years on end or that you are one of them for years on end. That had to be that had to definitely be rough on the old soul, you know? Yeah.
You know, here's the thing. I never thought about seeing so many stories on this kind of thing.
We've read so many books and seen so many movies about double agents and people, you know, lying for cover. But I always think about like, oh, yeah, to live that lie and to keep that up, that must be hard.
Until we did this episode, I never thought about how hard that would be to just like be sleeping with the enemy essentially full time.

And like all your friends, all your social circle, everything that comes out of your

mouth, like it has to be the thing that you hate the most.

Right.

It's incredible.

I never considered how hard that would be.

Right.

So you said that he was told he needed a J-O-B.

Yes.

And he became a journalist.

J-O-U-R-N-A-L-I-S-M. Right.
That was his J-O-B. And the reason why it was such a great profession for him is that you can go all over the world as a journalist.
And you're just like, yeah, I'm covering the running of the bulls. So here I am.
Or this Olympics is amazing, isn't it? Oktoberfest? Let's do it. Right.
Nobody's going to question why you're in this country because you're covering something. That's one thing.
Another thing, too, is if you are covering, like, elite people, you're kind of considered a member of the club just in and of itself, right? So people let their guard down around you because you're an aristocrat. You're one of them.
They know you won't say the things that they are saying off the record. You won't print those in the paper, but you could sell them to the Soviets.
That's exactly right. So he gathered all sorts of off-the-record secrets and all this stuff from interviewing people at the highest echelons of power that they were sharing with him because he was one of them.
He was just turning right around and giving it to the Soviets, like you said. So his his career as a journalist to start out was it was a great choice.
Yeah. And it's just further reinforced the more he does it because he's not printing that stuff.
So you're like, oh, Philby can really be trusted because all this off the record stuff and he's not printing it. This guy's great.
That's right. So to sort of bulk up his cover, he got this job at the Anglo-German Trade Gazette, which was a British newspaper, but it was at least in part financed by the Nazis.
And it was about just trying to get trade relations between Britain and Germany. It was like a friendly newspaper between them.
Yeah. So he had to, you know, play this role of sort of quasi Nazi sympathizer and lose all of his friends in his life because all of his friends were these, you know, sort of fellow ideologically aligned people, fellow leftists, maybe not all of them communists, but he wasn't hanging out with these people until he started doing this, this right-wing sort of Nazi sympathizing group.
Yeah, he essentially pulled a Christopher Hitchens and just completely transformed from one way to the other. So at the time, Civil War broke out.
This is in the 30s as well in Spain. Have you ever seen the orphanage? Yes.
Very creepy. And in the time of the Spanish Civil War.
Yeah, that was good. Yeah, it was.
On one hand, you had the fascists led by Francisco Franco, and they were fighting the communists led by Franco Francisco. And he was supposed to be a war reporter for the London Times.
And I mean, he was writing for the Times, but really what he was doing was working his way into the good graces of the fascists so he could spy on them for the Soviets, who would then in turn tell what agents to do what to undermine the fascist side of the Civil War. Right.
Do you think there was ever any confusion about those two leaders? Oh, I made that up. I thought you did.
Very subtle, though. Thank you.
I was trying to, like, sniff you off the case, but in a way that made me look as least dumb as possible. Well, that's why you're the best all-around boy.
Man, stop it. So we should mention, you know, sort of neither here nor there, but he and Litzy had been divorced by this time.

He was married four times total. But he would do things like strike up affairs in order to get into the places he needed to be.
In this case, he had an affair with an older woman, Franco's Inner Circle. But while he was there, his car was bombed, essentially.

Not a car bombing, but just hit by a shelling during a bombing raid. And all three passengers in the car that were not named Kim Philby died.
And he just had minor injuries. So he was actually awarded the Red Cross of Military Merit from Franco himself gave him this award.

Yeah, one thing I saw real quick is that Kim Philby received the highest military honor possible from the Spanish, the Soviets and the English. Oh, yeah.
All while he was a spy for the USSR. Wow, that's crazy.
So he gained so much access. Like he was friendly with the highest levels of the fascist side of the of the Spanish government that the Soviets were like, we could just have him off Franco at this point.
And they decided like, no, we're just going to use up a valuable asset. And frankly, I'm not sure that that guy could do it.
Yeah. So they didn't have him kill Franco Franco.
But he really proved his worth by infiltrating the fascists in the Spanish Civil War.

And by this time, well, should we take a break and then come back and talk about his next round of stuff?

We got a break.

OK, well, we'll be right back to talk about his next round of stuff. early.
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Offers are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply. So, Chuck, I was saying that Philby proved himself a very loyal communist spy and an effective one, too.
So Otto's like, hey, man, you got any friends? And Philby says, yes, yes, I do. As a matter of fact, I have two very close friends from my Cambridge days who I think would fit the bill perfectly.
One of them was named Donald McClain. The other was Guy Burgess.
I'm not sure which way he said it. I also saw a lot of conflicting information that Guy Burgess recruited Philby and yada, yada, yada.
But I think that the way that we've said it is correct. I think so.
So how he gets Don McClain, not American Pie Don McClain, how he gets Donald McClain on the dole is he goes to dinner and he sort of hints around, you know, like, hey, you know, what do you think? And McLean was like, I'm all in, buddy. I've been waiting on this.
So he had to do the same thing Philby did was, you know, like leave all his sort of leftist friends behind, publicly come out in favor of fascism. and his other buddy, Guy Burgess, saw this happening and was like,

Hey. behind, publicly come out in favor of fascism.
And his other buddy, Guy Burgess, saw this happening and was like, hey, what's going on here, dude? This is really fishy. I want in on this.
Like, I see what's happening here. And Burgess was not, I think McClain was a pretty decent fit for a spy, but Burgess was very loud, apparently a pretty obnoxious guy.
And he was a barely closeted gay man at a time where homosexuality was illegal. It was a crime in England.
All that to say he was not a real sort of low-key, under-the-radar, you'll be a good spy kind of guy. But the Soviets were like, he's fine.
Yeah, it's crazy. Like, he was a loose cannon if there ever was one, but they still recruited him anyway.
Yeah, and they became known as the Cambridge Three. I think eventually there would be a Cambridge Five in total, though, right? Yeah.
There were two others that were kind of brought on, one of which was this lone wolf who was kind of acting independently. But what they had in common is they'd all five gone to Cambridge or instructed at Cambridge.
Right, and ended up being Soviet spies. Oh, yeah.
That part, too. Yeah.
So when World War II broke out, the Soviets were like, oh, this is great. We're allied with England, you know, nominally.
And we've got this guy on the inside. Let's have him join military intelligence.
And just like everything else, military intelligence was run by the upper crust, the aristocracy of Great Britain at the time. And so just like he went to that lefty professor at Cambridge and said, what can I do to help the communist cause? This spy version of Kim Philby went to the British aristocracy and said, what can I do to help the crown? I would really love to get into intelligence.
They're like, well, come aboard to MI6. We don't need to vet you.
We'll look at your background and see if there's anything that pops up. Nothing did.
Great. Come aboard.
Here's every secret that we have in the entire nation. Yeah.
Like, like later on, they literally asked like about the vetting and like, how could this get past you? And they were like, yeah, you came to the right family and they and we knew the same people basically. Yeah.
And this is how it was back then. By the way, look for a little preview.
We got an episode on MI6 coming out at some point. Nice.
Looking forward to that. But he's all of a sudden working for MI6, is in the perfect position to be a double agent because of where he worked, but also because he was, I mean, this is why they get Guy Pearce to play this guy.
He was a really, really charming guy, apparently. Just very smart, very quick-witted.
Apparently, he would just make you feel like you're the only person in the room. People really, really loved him and thereby trusted him very quickly.
And a legendary drinker. He could drink anyone under the table.
And if you're in a cocktail party and you get people a little tipsy on whiskey, on that fine scotch or British whiskey, they're going to start spilling some secrets. And he's like Karen Allen in the first Raiders, you know.
She could drink that guy under the table. So don't get into a drinking contest with Kim Philby or Karen Allen.
No. I think that Dave put it best, though, when he really brought it home for me, at least, to describe how charming this guy was.
He said Dave compared him to peak Hugh Grant. I almost wet my pants when I read that.
I was like, God, that's charming. That's how disarmed I was.
I almost just peed. I haven't seen Heretic yet.
It looks good, though. I heard it's pretty good.
Oh, have you seen Talk to Me? What's that? It's another A24 horror movie. Maybe.
What's it about? I don't want to give it away. It's about where you can hold this mummified hand and speak to the spirit world.
You've not seen it? It's Australian. I have not seen that.
Oh, it's so good, Chuck. I would have remembered that.
You're going to love it. You've become quite a horror movie guy over the past years.
Yeah. I mean, you like all kinds of stuff.
Right. Does you, is you me into these scary movies? Oh, no.
She'll hang out on the couch with me and watch them, but she's not, she doesn't watch them. Although I think she would even like, um, talk to me.
It's just so well done. And there's only a few parts that are like scary, scary.
Yeah. Um, it's just a really well thought out horror movie.'s really cool and you got an A24 tattoo on your lower back so I know you're an adherent they really are great where were we? we were at Hugh Grant and we were talking about the drinking alright I guess let's talk about what was going on then with the Cambridge Three.
This is a very successful—well, all the Soviet spies combined were really successful, including the Cambridge Three. Over the course of their work, they sent the Soviets more than 10,000 documents during World War II.
Just World War II. Oh, yeah.
And, like, the D-Day invasion, advance notice, stuff about the Manhattan Project, like some really big fish.

They were getting fed this information.

And sometimes this would, you know, this would lead to people dying because of information shared by Philby and others.

Yeah. So Kim Philby, he wrote a memoir, as we'll see later on, but he showed zero remorse, essentially, for any of the lives that he that he cost.

Yeah. Essentially.
One of the really good examples of this lives that he cost, essentially.

One of the really good examples of this is some members of the Catholic resistance in Germany

who were fighting the Nazis during World War II, they approached the British intelligence.

We should say MI6.

I don't know if we said that's the British equivalent of the CIA in America.

Yeah.

Is it military based? Because you said military intelligence. I thought they were just like the CIA.
Yeah. I don't know if they're military intelligence or not.
I guess we'll find out when we do our MI6 episode. Exactly.
Great point. But they came to MI6.
Some of these resistance leaders came to MI6 and they said, hey, we want to make friends with you because we think the allies are going to win. We're fighting to make sure the allies win.
And afterward, we want to build a Christian democratic Germany that's going to be super friendly with the West. So let's work together after the war.
Okay. See you.
Tata for now. And Philby, as a member of MI6, found out about this, told the Soviets and basically the names and addresses of

these people. And the Soviets went and killed them all because the Soviets wanted Germany to be

communist afterward, not open and democratic and Christian. So after the war, when MI6 went

looking for these Catholic resistance leaders to help rebuild Germany, they were gone. They'd all

been killed during the war, thanks to Kim Philby. Yeah.
So that's just one example of many where

Thank you. resistance leaders to help rebuild Germany, they were gone.
They'd all been killed during the war, thanks to Kim Philby. Yeah.
So that's just one example of many where lives were lost due to, you know, his intelligence gathering. After World War II, this is when, obviously, the Americans and the Brits sort of turned toward the Soviet Union and the threat of communism as the main enemy.
And, you know, kind of pre-Cold War stuff. And you would think that this would be a tough thing all of a sudden because Philby is really

the enemy.

But he was so good at what he did.

It was he just had an inside position.

So it was not easier.

But all of a sudden he was like he was really in the mix.

Yeah.

And he was so good at lying.

He was so good at playing this part, sleeping with the enemy, like you said, year after year after year, that even when the Soviets were the enemy now, like he just coasted right through it like it was nothing, like there had been no change whatsoever for him. So he actually had a stroke of genius.
In 1944, he said, hey, we really need to start worrying about these Soviets. I'm worried that there's Soviet spies in MI6, and I think we need to create a counterintelligence section for MI6 dedicated to rooting out Soviet spies.
Oh, man. Do you know the huevos it takes to suggest something like that when you're a Soviet spy.
But at the same time, it really just shows, yeah, that was his M.O. He would be like, you can't possibly suspect me because I'm the one suggesting this.
That's what he did. And they were like, great idea.
Let's get somebody, not you, to do this. And they hired a guy named Felix Cowgill.
Yeah, exactly. Get that old boy Cowgill on it.
And Philby was like, oh, that didn't go down like I wanted because I really need to head up this organization and not have this guy Cowgill all of a sudden sniffing down my neck. So he starts a whisper campaign to sort of get Cowgill out of there.
That's exactly what happened. And within a few months, Philby is standing there, you know, at the ready to take over a Soviet spy all of a sudden in charge of the Soviet counterintelligence for MI6.
So McIntyre in his book, this is a pretty fun quote. He said, the fox was not merely guarding the hen house, but building it, running it, assessing its strengths and frailties and planning its future construction.
You sound like Hank Azaria in Mystery Men, the Sphinx. Great.
I'll take that. I think that's a great quote, too.
He definitely nails it. So this is what, but that's the reality now.
Like Kim Philby is the in charge of rooting out Soviet spies, yet he's a Soviet spy for MI6. Perfect.
Yeah. So things are going along smoothly for, I don't know, a couple of months.
And then there's this really big deal that happens. There's a defector who worked at the Soviet embassy in Istanbul.
His name was Konstantin Volkov. And Volkov went to the British embassy in Istanbul.
He said, hey, neighbor, get this. I know the names of dozens of Soviet spies embedded in British intelligence all throughout.
And I will tell you their names if you give me $50,000. And they're like $50,000 in 2025 money.
He goes, no, no, no. $50,000 in 1944 money.
That's a lot more. If you give me that and you help me and my wife defect to the West, I'll tell you all these people's names.

And here's a little bit of sugar on top to get you interested.

One of these spies is the head of a section of the British Counter Espionage Service in London.

They said, oh, boy, that's quite a sweetener.

So Philby hears about this.

And instead of, like, you know, freaking out, he was like, no, no, no, I've got this. He said, you know what? This this if it's that inside, we need to get an interview with this guy.
Somebody needs to go interrogate Volkov. And how about I do that? And they're like, send cowgirl.
He goes, no. Exactly.
And he said, you know, I should do this. And they, you know, they trusted him so much at this point.
They're like, yeah, sure. Like, who better to send? Right.
He goes to Istanbul to meet with Volkov, but he never showed up because the Russians took care of that. Right.
Yeah. He told the KGB that there was this Volkov defector in Istanbul and they needed to take care of him.
So he looks totally innocent and legit. Like, he's the head of MI6, Soviet counterespionage department.
So it makes sense that he would go interview him, one, but it also just makes him look so innocent. Why would you go all the way over there to meet with somebody you know is not going to be there? Of course he's innocent.
He went to Istanbul to meet the guy. The guy just disappeared.
That's all. And it was just another masterstroke like that.
I'm just I mean, I don't take my hat off the liars very often, but this guy definitely deserves a hat tip for coming up with this stuff. I mean, he was always one step ahead of things, so much so that, you know, the Soviets eventually thought that he might be like a triple agent or double crossing them or something because, you know, they were like, how's this guy moved up so quickly? And all of a sudden he's running the department MI6 that's like, it's pretty genius, comrade, but it's all

very suspicious to them. And they were a pretty paranoid bunch at that point.
They probably still are. And they always wondered what the deal was, but like his information always checked out.
It was always golden. So they really had no choice but to go along with things.
He would eventually go to America. He was assigned MI6 chief in D.C.
So if he was like a charming guy in England with that accent and his drinking ability, he was like, just multiply that times 100 in the United States as far as the charm factor goes. Right, exactly.
So yet again, he's done some amazing maneuvering. He's in D.C.
He's hanging out with the most connected, embedded members of the CIA, the FBI, diplomatic

circuit from the State Department.

Like everybody who's anyone in D.C., this guy's partying with.

And you said that he was well known as just like he had a hollow leg.

He was just such an amazing drinker.

He could drink as well as anybody.

Like Marion from Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Thank you. that he was well-known as just like a, he had a hollow leg.
He was just such an amazing drinker.

He could drink as well as anybody, like Marion from Raiders of the Lost Ark, you said. Apparently, he could get so drunk that he couldn't engage in a conversation, but he was always listening.
And he could still type up a pretty great report the next day for his handlers based on the stuff he'd overheard while he was blackout drunk, essentially. So this really jibed with America.
Like the Americans at the time, they loved drinking like that, just like the Brits, maybe even more so. So he would just drink with everybody.
Okay. But close to tide, at least, you can agree.
So he would just drink with everybody, and that's how he became a trusted confidant. Apparently, also, he was a genuine friend.
Like, he met some people along the way that he really became friends with. And I think later on he said that he missed some of them.
But that combination of being one of them in the intelligence community, being able to drink as well as anybody so he can have fun at cocktail parties, being charming, and then also being a legit friend. He really got his hooks into people over in the U.S.
as well. Yeah, for sure.
One of the guys he really buddied up with, his name was James Angleton. He was a counterintelligence chief of the CIA for two decades.
So good guy to know. They had already met, apparently, from when they were younger in England.
So they were hooked up again and became really, really close. And so he thinks they're like really good friends.
So he's just spilling everything to Philby because they're buddies. One example is he told Philby about a military operation called Operation Valuable, where the Brits and the Americans were going to overthrow the dictator of Albania to keep them from joining the Soviet bloc.
And they were training exiles to sort of mount this fight, you know, against their against their dictator. And Filby passes this along to Moscow.
And before you know it, these Albanian authorities are like ready and waiting when this uprising happens

and just slaughtered

all these foreign trained exiles

and basically quashed everything.

The revolution was no more.

Right.

And so there's a whole bunch of heads

also on Philby as well from that.

Yeah, we should probably

take another break, yeah?

Yes, let's take a break.

All right, we'll come back

and talk about, well, Kim Philby right after this. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without your knowing.
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We were getting where we couldn't pay the bill. PG&E asked customers about their biggest concerns so we could address them one by one.
That's terrifying. That's fair.
Joe, Regional Vice President, PG&E. We have to run the business in a way that keeps people safe, but it starts driving costs down.

I would love to see that.

We're on our way.

I hope so.

PG&E electricity rates are now lower than they were last year.

Hear what other customers have to say and what PG&E is a little bit about something called the Venona decryption. That was, you know, everyone had their secret codes that they used to encrypt things in those days, and they still do.
But 1946, American cryptologists cracked that code that the Soviets were using, the Venona decryption. And they said, hey, let's just not use this going forward.
Let's go back and dig through all the stuff from World War II and see if we can get anything out of that. And in 1950, they decoded a message from the past that identified a Soviet spy.
No, not Yuri. It's not, well, I was about to ruin No Way Out, a movie that came out like 30-something years ago, but I'm not going to do that.
Okay. I'll just say Yuri because it's a really good movie and you should see it if you haven't.
But they identified a Soviet spy named Homer who worked at the British embassy in D.C. in 1944.
And Philby was like, oh, man, I'm reading this thing. Homer's McClane.
It's my friend. And if they get him, then my cover's blown.
And, you know, right now he's in a good spot because everyone thinks he's he's like me, just a straight up Cambridge boy who's who's doing God's work for the crown. But more evidence started coming out.
And another decoded message came out saying that Homer's wife was pregnant and staying with her mother in New York. And he was like, it's really obvious it's you now.
So I got to I got to kick this thing into action. Yes.
So I guess as an example of what kind of friend he was, he took it upon himself to get in touch with the KGB and be like, McLean's blown. He needs to get out of here.
But just McLean, because if just McLean had to flee and it seemed like it was just McLean who was the spy, he could weather that pretty well. He could be like, I can't believe this.
I was as duped as you were. If his other friend, the other member of the Cambridge Three, Guy Burgess, also fled, it would be really hard for Kim Philby to be like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe my two best friends were Soviet spies, but not me.
So he told Guy Burgess, like, McLean's leaving. You cannot leave.
You have to stay here. We're going to ride this out together.
Just we'll be OK. And Guy Burgess said, yes, absolutely.
And he dipped with McLean, too, leaving Kim Philby to hold the bag. Yeah.
And he was holding the bag because he didn't know this was coming. Moscow didn't say that was going to happen.
So word gets out. It's pretty clear that there's a third man, Q the Zither, and that had said, hey, Moscow, here's what's going on.
So the writing's on the wall. He knows he's about to be found out.
Even though he had all this protection as the Cambridge boy, these other two guys being Cambridge gentlemen, being moles and just sort of disappearing, you know, it could be anyone. So he knew that the writing was on the wall.
He's, everyone's starting to remember like, wait a minute, all three guys were super leftist like communist in college. And they really turned they really changed their mind on how they felt about things ideologically really quickly.
And then there's also the Volkov affair and Operation Valuable and like all the things that Philby's assigned to are going tits up. Yeah, well put.
He he could have fled, too. He didn't, though.
He's like, I think the best thing I can do is stay here. And just by having the guts to stay here, it'll make me look all the more innocent.
Like it will back up my claim, right? Like what person in his right mind would be a Soviet spy? And when he's basically outed, stick around to say, no, I'm not a spy. And that's exactly what he did.
And MI6 at the end, they said, okay, we'll believe you. And they circled the wagons around him again because he was an aristocrat.
But the CIA, the FBI, MI5, which is like the UK's version of the FBI, all of them were like, this guy, Kim Philby, he's the third man. He's a Soviet spy and MI6 would not hear of it.
And there is actually a rift that developed between MI6 and the other agencies.

But the reason why MI6 was willing to do this was because, like we said, he was such a good friend that his true friends who were left, who weren't spies, came to his defense and they staked their reputations on Kim Philby not being the third man, the Soviet spy that was still embedded in MI6. Yeah.
And those were James Angleton, who we talked about, the CIA guy for 20 years, and a guy named Nicholas Elliott, a career guy at MI6. So they kept him from being prosecuted.
He couldn't still work at MI6. He was forced to resign.
They couldn't save his job. But when this all came out, it should have been, like, over for him.
But he held it, again, the waybills in the sky. He holds a press conference at his mom's house in London and, like, live on camera, just very openly and convincingly answers all these pointed questions from reporters saying like my two friends deceived me.
Everyone ended up believing him. And while this made him like technically a free guy, he didn't have that job anymore and he thrived on that job.
So he was pretty miserable at this point and drinking way, way too much. Yeah, for not the last time in his life, he almost drank himself to death between 1951 and 1956 when he was just totally unmoored in a drift.
He was no longer an MI6. The Soviets had cut off contact with him.
And his friend Nicholas Elliott, one of those guys who would stake their reputation on Kim Philby not being a Soviet spy, he pulled some strings. He used to be this MI6 station chief in Beirut.
And he got in touch with some friends at The Observer and at The Economist and said, why don't you take this guy, Kim Philby, as one of your reporters? He's a longtime journalist. He used to be a journalist and covered the world.
Why don't you put him to work in Beirut? And they did. They put him in as a Middle East correspondent for both of those papers.
And while this happened, or sort of shortly after this happened, Elliot said, and you know what? You can start working for MI6 again, just on the down low. Right.
We'll throw you some bones here and there. You can go to work.
So now Philby has this. Once again, he's a journalist again.
He's quietly working for MI6 again. And he could have just, you know, played it straight from this point forward and been like, all right, I got back on track.
But he calls up the Ruskies and is like, guess what, old boys? Guess who's back in? And immediately, you know, because of his his love of communism is one thing, I think.

But the author of that book, McIntyre, also makes a point that and I think a good one that he was he was sort of addicted to this kind of lifestyle, the deception lifestyle of of drinking and philandering and leading these two lives like he seemed to really thrive off of that subterfuge and could not give it up. Right.
So he was back in it again. He was happy to be alive once again.
And I think this lasted for about a year. A woman named Flora Solomon came forward.
She had been reading some of Philby's articles in either The Observer, The Economist, or both that were unflattering toward Israel. And Flora Solomon was dedicated to the cause of Israel and did not like that.
So she said, you know what? I've had this thing in my pocket for 30 years. Kim Philby approached me when we were back at Cambridge and asked me if I wanted to become a Soviet spy.
And I said no. And then I just let it go for 30 years

until he ticked me off.

And so this was it.

Like she said, this guy is a Soviet spy,

told an editor at one of the papers,

either The Economist or The Observer again,

they turned around and told MI6

and Kim Philby was in again, in trouble.

And this time he had nobody to swoop in to help him out. He was he was basically cooked.
I feel like those kind of loose ends don't happen in intelligence anymore. Like, oh, this woman who you tried to recruit as a spy is just out there with this information.
I read why. Why? Because MI6 at the time was doing something called negative vetting.

They would look at your record, your file, whatever they had on you.

And as long as nothing, no red flags popped out, you were in.

Rather than positive vetting where they conducted an actual background, like a background investigation on you.

They went to the trouble of like doing research.

As long as there's no problems, you were're wow so that was one reason why it changed okay well that makes sense thanks glad you knew that thank you so uh where were we okay so he was in trouble um he couldn't deny you know what was going on any longer uh his buddy nicholas elliott was was pretty obviously. He volunteered to go to Beirut and get a confession out of Philby.
And he tried to deny it to him still, but Elliott was, he was super upset at this point. And he was like, you're my friend.
You pulled a charade over my eyes. Charade.
The charade over my eyes. The wool, the woolly blanket has been pulled over my eyes, old boy.
And he was ticked off. And finally, he was like, hey, listen, give me a full confession.
I can make sure you're not prosecuted for this. Philby knew that even if that happened, he wouldn't be a free man.
Like the MI6 was all of a sudden going to put the thumbscrews on him to try and get all the information he ever had about the Soviets. Right.
The Soviets were probably going to try and snuff him out. Right.
So he's like, I got to just leave. I got to get the heck out of here.
Well, he compromised. So just this past January, they declassified the confession that he gave to Nicholas Elliott.
And in it, he basically said, yes, I spied for the Soviets, but only while they were allies to the UK. Right.
Just in World War II. Yeah.
And in 1946, I stopped. So he compromised.
He had to give them something, but he also didn't give them enough that the Soviets would want to kill them. Right? Right.
Well, hopefully. Right.
Exactly. And Nicholas Elliott had a great quote when he went to Beirut.
He said, I once looked up to you, Kim.

My God, how I despise you now.

I hope you've enough decency left to understand why.

Yeah.

So Philby's sitting there.

He's doing three days of interviews with Nicholas Elliott.

And on the third day, he's like, that's enough.

I'm out of here.

And he vanished from Beirut in January of 1963, shortly after telling his wife

he'd meet her at a diplomatic dinner party that evening. And he hopped on a Soviet freighter and

slipped away, slipped away so easily that even the KGB was like, we're pretty sure Nicholas

Elliott let him slip away. Yeah.
And he may have because just to let him quietly leave was a lot

less embarrassing for England than to put him on trial and to go through this big public spectacle

I'm going to go through this big public spectacle where all these people are trotted out and asked, like, how did this guy get away with this for so long under your watch? Right. So he left.
He lived in Moscow for the rest of his life, for 25 years. You can Google pictures of, like, an elderly Kim Philby walking around Moscow.
He eventually would die in a Russian hospital in 1988 and never said a bad word about the reign of terror from Stalin or anything like that. He got the Order of Lenin, like you said, was awarded the highest honors in three different very opposing places.
Right, exactly.

Because he was so good at lying in his spy craft.

He also, I mean, he was considered, I think still to this day, is considered a national hero in Russia.

He was featured on a postage stamp in 1990 as part of the Soviet intelligence agent series

of postage stamps.

And I think he got full military KGB honors when he was buried in Moscow. And yet I read this blog called Cypher Brief, and they basically say the big problem they did, in addition to all the lives lost because of him, was just the damage he did at creating paranoia in all of the intelligence agencies, which tore themselves apart looking for Soviet spies.
Because they found out that there were not just three, but five. And they tore themselves up for decades to come looking for that fifth one because they didn't know who it was.
And it turned out it was a guy named John Karncross. And then there was another one named Anthony Blunt, who was the art curator for The Crown.
But he was a traitor. At any rate, that was one of the big lasting legacies Kim Philby left behind him was just utter paranoia.
Yeah. I mean, if it could have been them, it could have been anyone.
And it was also this sort of this bedrock thing of that up until then had been, you know, if you come from the right family, if you come from the right world, then you're to be trusted as an insider. It rocked them to the very foundation.
Well put, chap. You got anything else? Well, no, but since you said chap, I think you know what that means.
It means that I've unlocked listener mail. That's right.
This is from, it says Emily, but there's a little, is it an accent ague or grav? Which is the one that goes from northeast to southwest? Like I know. Okay.
That's above the E, so I'm not sure how Emily pronounces the name there. Might be Emile.
No, like you would pronounce the E if it has an accent. There's something to it.
Emile. You're good.
All right. Hey, guys.
Been listening since around 2018, provided me much comfort, entertainment, and knowledge So thank you. I'm from Montreal and I love your poutine short stuff episode.
I'm somewhat of a poutine super fan and purist. It's been on my mission to try and rate as many poutines as possible throughout Quebec.
To find my favorite, I thought I'd share my personal poutine rating system with you because I found it to be a rigorous method. Nice.
Four criteria. Number one, cheese curd.
How squeaky?

Are the curds too big or too small?

Okay.

Number two, gravy sauce.

Too sweet?

Tomato-y?

Not salty enough?

Too runny?

Tomato-y?

Yeah.

I don't know.

Okay.

French fries.

Too limp?

Ugh.

Is the cut too thick?

Ugh.

Are they tasteless?

Boo.

Yeah.

Do they taste like Wendy's tasteless fries?

Oh, not on the Wendy's fries, huh?

No.

Pretty good dipped in a Frosty, though.

Yes.

Assembly, is the cheese gravy fry ratio just right?

That's a big one.

Yeah.

Is the portion too big or too small?

And bonus fifth criteria, the value for money. Oh, that's a good extra one there Is the portion too big or too small? And bonus fifth criteria, value for

money. Oh, that's a good

extra one there at the end. Yeah, pretty good.

Even though poutine is a simple disguise, the beauty

of it is so that

it can be adapted to everyone's own

personal taste. Thank you very much for the podcast.

To all the team, have a nice day.

That is from Emile.

Thank you very much, Emile.

Emily, that is a great test, a litmus test, if you will, for poutine. In my opinion, it would be really tough for the gravy to potato ratio to be too much gravy.
It'd be easy to be too little gravy, but too much gravy would be hard to achieve, in my opinion. That could lead to a soggy fry, though.
Yeah, that just means you're not eating them fast enough. Ah, good point.
All right, well, if you want to be like Emily and send us your own personal litmus test for something or other, we love that kind of stuff, you can send it to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without your knowing. If anyone's ever said you snore loudly or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability, and concentration issues, it may be due to OSA.
OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at dontsleeponosa.com.
This information is provided by Lilly USA LLC. We were getting where we couldn't pay the bill.
PG&E asked customers about their biggest concerns so we could address them one by one. That's terrifying.
That's fair. Joe, Regional Vice President, PG&E.
We have to run the business in a way that keeps people safe, but it starts driving costs down. I would love to see that.
We're on our way. I hope so.
PG&E. We have to run the business in a way that keeps people safe, but starts driving

costs down. I would love to see that.
We're on our way. I hope so.
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