Heavy Metal Pt II

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Speaker 1 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too for part two of our episodes on heavy metal, the music.

Speaker 2 Sorry all you chem majors who showed up with different expectations would you like to see the pope on the end of the rope do you think he's a fool

Speaker 3 what is that that's sabbath which my brother always laughed at that line which it's on uh i think it's on master of reality i don't know the name of the song i think it said end of the rope end of a rope obviously now that your brother thought that was funny He did.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I think that's the only thing he knows about Black Sabbath, which is hysterical.

Speaker 2 Some of it is pretty comical, you know?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, and I guess let's go ahead and kick off part two with talking about Ozzie,

Speaker 3 because this is the section where we're going to talk about some controversies. And Ozzie,

Speaker 3 in his day, certainly had a few of them. He was kicked out of Black Sabbath in the late 70s because he partied too hard for Black Sabbath even.

Speaker 3 He was replaced by the great Ronnie James Dio.

Speaker 3 and went on to have a solo career. But there were a couple of things that happened in his life,

Speaker 3 notably biting biting the heads off of things

Speaker 3 that gained him a lot of attention. At one CBS sales convention, he was supposed to release these live doves,

Speaker 3 and instead he bit the heads off of them.

Speaker 3 And the story has changed a lot over the years, so depending on who you're talking to is what version.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 he bit the head off of one to shock people in a room, and apparently he was being let out, bit the head off the other. There are also people that said that they were not alive at the time.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's what I saw.

Speaker 3 Uh, the same thing when he bit the head off of a bat in Des Moines in 1982 on stage when somebody threw a bat on stage, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, and somebody tracked down the guy who threw the bat, and he said that bat had been dead for days.

Speaker 3 Yeah, Mark Neal.

Speaker 2 And I don't know what is worse, biting the head off of a live bat or biting the head off of a bat that's been sitting around dead for a couple of days.

Speaker 3 I don't know. Flip a coin, buddy.

Speaker 2 Either way, I've reached a point in my life where I can't even take take talking about like that.

Speaker 2 That's the word. Just don't kill the dog.

Speaker 2 That's where I've gotten to in life.

Speaker 3 No, I'm with you.

Speaker 2 You know?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, he snorted live ants beside a swimming pool on tour with Motley Crew, and I feel bad for those ants.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. What did they do? Like, you know, nothing.

Speaker 2 I think Ozzie was a cool dude in a lot of ways, but he was also very hard to get around. And that was one reason why I got kicked out of Black Sabbath.

Speaker 2 Like, some people, like Dave Mustaine, like Ozzie, like their bandmates were partying as hard as they were, sometimes harder, but they didn't turn into evil

Speaker 2 jerks

Speaker 2 who would like get in your face or try to kill you or like try to try to do something horrible and like ruin everybody's time.

Speaker 2 That's how you would get kicked out of a heavy metal band by being such a jerk that your bandmates are like, we can't put up with this anymore. We're going to replace you.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think that was definitely the case with Mustaine. I think Ozzy was a little more, his reliability became an issue.
Oh, is that right? Yeah, I think, I think that was a deal.

Speaker 3 But we should talk a little bit.

Speaker 3 I know we covered it in the Satanic Panic episode, but you can't have a metal episode without talking a little bit about the Parents' Music Resource Center, the PMRC in 1985, led by Tipper Gore.

Speaker 3 Al Gore's wife, at one point, you know, they own a mission to clean up music and to, at the very least, to get ratings on record albums.

Speaker 3 So at one point, they released their Filthy 15 of the Filthiest 15 songs, and nine out of the 15 were uh either metal or hard rock bands yeah i mean deaf leopard

Speaker 2 come on

Speaker 2 i mean they're they're considered metal but i don't know what song that would have even been no that's what i'm saying not whether or not they're metal same with the cdc and twisted sister like what are these guys singing about that you need to censor like give me a break Venom and Merciful Fate.

Speaker 2 Again, I get why suburban parents were scared of these guys. They were like legit.

Speaker 2 Like, let's talk about Satan and how great he is and how much you suck religious people so yes i'm sure and i i'm not saying like yeah they deserve to be censored i get that one but madonna prince um uh deaf leopard like it's just it was it was it just goes to show you how preposterous the whole thing was but yeah a lot of people say it worked i mean that's how we ended up with the warning explicit lyrics sticker which actually helped a lot of hip-hop groups sell more records.

Speaker 3 You mean the badge of honor?

Speaker 2 Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But some people say that MTV actually kind of was under pressure to stop showing as much heavy metal and that heavy metal got pushed a little bit out of the mainstream, but

Speaker 2 instead onto night, like the two-hour version of Headbanger's Ball every week, which is not a lot compared to what it used to be like.

Speaker 2 I don't know if we said, but Iron Maiden had not one, but two videos played on MTV in the first 24 hours that MTV was on the air. And I think they were played more than once.

Speaker 2 And the first one was sandwiched in between Rod Stewart's Sailing and Areo Speed Wagon's Keep On Loving You.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, the rotation

Speaker 3 for MTV was eclectic for sure. And that's kind of what people liked about it for the most part, because it was way more eclectic than

Speaker 3 FM Radio even, because that was generally genre.

Speaker 3 And they didn't jump around from Madonna to Iron Maiden on radio for the most part.

Speaker 3 I mean, maybe there might be some, like, maybe K-Rock was doing something like that, but generally, you had to go to MTV to get metal at all.

Speaker 3 And then when they sequestered it to Headbanger's Ball, initially, I think it was called

Speaker 3 Heavy Metal Mania,

Speaker 3 hosted by D. Snyder, but then it became Headbanger's Ball with, once again, the great Ricky Rockman.

Speaker 2 Love that guy.

Speaker 3 At least then, Metalheads had a place to go where you could really sink in for a couple of hours, you know?

Speaker 2 For sure. Same with member 120 Minutes for New Waivers? That was Matt Benfield.
Yeah. You want to see a Bauhaus video? That's where you go.
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 And if you want to know our metal bona fide days, people, we've been in the same room as Dee Snyder. He nodded to us once in passing in a hallway.
That's right.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, Headbangers Ball also had some tours in North America when it was really big, 87, 89, and 92. So they were

Speaker 2 a festival thing? Yeah, pretty much.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then I think also we should mention, too, that

Speaker 2 one of the things about metal is that it has been, and I think still remains, pretty

Speaker 2 white working class male for the most part, but it's definitely gotten more diverse than it was in the mid-80s, say.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, there weren't a lot of bands.

Speaker 3 I mean, there were bands like Bad Brains that was way more punk, but had metal sort of sounds with their guitar. Love Bad Brains.

Speaker 3 Body Count came around. They were, I mean, I think they were for sure kind of speed metal.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but with iced T rapping.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I saw them at Lollapalooza.

Speaker 3 I'm not going to include Living Color at all, even though Livia does. Sorry, Livia.
You missed the mark there.

Speaker 2 No, Vernon Reed's guitar playing is metal.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 3 Listen to the song Glamour Boys. I mean, come on.

Speaker 2 Well, that's kind of hair metal-y.

Speaker 3 Glamour Boys, is it?

Speaker 2 Hey, hey. Speaking of hair metal, I forgot one great hair metal band

Speaker 2 that came out much more recently.

Speaker 3 Oh, I thought you were going to say Europe.

Speaker 2 No, Europe's definitely in there with the final countdown.

Speaker 2 No, The Darkness, they're a great hair metal band, even though they're like, I guess, tongue-in-cheek. I think they know that they're tongue-in-cheek, but

Speaker 2 they're really great as far as hair metal music goes. They're talented musicians.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think there was a wave around then where people started to kind of try to evoke that thing again, and The Darkness was in that group.

Speaker 2 and then fishbone that was another all-black band that you could make a case had some definite metal tendencies for sure yeah not living color definitely fishbone i loved fishbone truth and soul is one of the great albums of all time and i saw them several times in concert okay and then also living color featuring vernon reed

Speaker 2 And we talked a little bit about women, too, right? We talked about Elisa Whitegloves from Arch Enemy. She's actually the second woman singer for Arch Enemy.

Speaker 2 There was a singer named Angela Gasau, who was, I think, replaced the original male singer of Arch Enemy, again, a melodic Swedish death metal band.

Speaker 2 And then there's another metal queen out there who at least used to be a stuff you should know listener named Nita Strauss.

Speaker 3 Yeah, Nita is great. I met her backstage because she was kind enough to invite us to the

Speaker 3 Motley Crew show where she

Speaker 3 still plays with the Alice Cooper band.

Speaker 3 And I met Nita and she's super awesome. And I think she's since gotten married.
So congratulations on that.

Speaker 2 Yeah. She's also in Iron Maidens, the Iron Maiden, all women, Iron Maiden cover band.

Speaker 3 Yeah, for sure. And guess what? That Judas Priest show I'm going to, Nita will be there because Alice Cooper's opening up.

Speaker 2 Awesome, dude. Well, hopefully she hears this.

Speaker 3 I hope so because we're not in touch or anything. I just remember she was super sweet and was big into science.

Speaker 2 That's really cool, man.

Speaker 3 Kind of a science nurse.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's right. Great guitar player.
For sure.

Speaker 2 Speaking of Judas Priest, are you going to dress like a leather daddy to the Judas Priest show?

Speaker 3 I'm not going to dress like a Leather Daddy because I don't have those clothes and I wouldn't want to just,

Speaker 3 what do you call that? Appropriate

Speaker 3 like a legit style for a demographic. But

Speaker 3 yeah, I mean, that's definitely a heavy metal. The leather and studs is a heavy metal trope like no other.

Speaker 2 Where did it come from, Chuck?

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 probably Rob Halford and going to underground gay clubs in London would be my guess.

Speaker 2 Yes, that's right. All of the

Speaker 2 black leather metal studded look that permeates heavy metal still in part to this day came from gay BDSM clubs that Rob Halford, as far as I know, the only out LGBTQ metal singer

Speaker 2 went to while he was still very much in the closet. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I think it's great. It's amazing.
I can't wait to see. I'll send you videos and stuff.

Speaker 2 Okay, please do.

Speaker 3 Yeah, just you, not everybody. Maybe I'll post some on my Instagram account at Chuck the Podcaster.
So be looking for that this fall.

Speaker 2 Okay, fine.

Speaker 2 So, Chuck, speaking of tropes like dressing like a leather daddy to be a metal god, there's actually a few others that are, they're not necessarily like, oh, this is a characteristic of metal.

Speaker 2 They're just things that bands have done and copied each other on over the years that now people say, like, this is a characteristic of metal, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, I have to mention the decorative umlaut.

Speaker 3 It's one of the funniest, kind of greatest things, and one of the biggest, except for I think Blue Oyster Cult, who I don't consider metal. They have the umlaut over the O and Oyster.

Speaker 2 They're definitely tough.

Speaker 3 But it became very metal. There's no other way to make anything seem metal in writing than to,

Speaker 3 there's certain fonts that we'll talk about, but if you throw a couple of decorative umlauts in there,

Speaker 3 it just looks more metal. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think even Scandinavian bands have their own thing, which is the

Speaker 2 the forward slash going through the O. Yeah, that's like their version of the umlaut.
I think they actually, in some cases, replace that with an umlaut. That's how metal the umlaut is.
Oh, wow. Okay.

Speaker 2 And apparently a rock critic named Richard Metzler claims that he was the one who told Blue Oyster Cult to use that, to use an umlaut unnecessarily.

Speaker 2 People say that Blue Oyster Cult was the one who did that, like you said.

Speaker 2 And Richard Meltzer or Metzler also claims to be the one who suggests that they use more cowbell in their music.

Speaker 3 Oh man, I didn't see that coming somehow.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh, that makes me very happy.

Speaker 3 Very nice. Classical music as an inspiration is definitely, I don't even call it a trope.
It's just a thing in metal.

Speaker 3 The theatricality,

Speaker 3 the virtuosity and that technical ability,

Speaker 3 you'll find that

Speaker 3 many heavy metal league guitarists were schooled in classical, not the least of which is the great Randy Rhodes, who we'll talk about later.

Speaker 3 And Eddie Van Halen, you know, took classical piano lessons and stuff like that when he was a kid.

Speaker 2 Very good piano player.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Not a metal god, but

Speaker 3 yeah, so classical for sure.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the thing is, one thing to understand about metal across the board in any genre or subgenre is there are very few bands that make music where you can suck.

Speaker 2 You essentially have to be an expert, extremely talented musician to play metal. Even the stuff that you're like, what is this?

Speaker 2 If you actually stopped and listened to the layers, the composition, the time signatures, like this is really complex, complicated music in every single sub-genre.

Speaker 2 So, like, metal as a whole, as a group, metal musicians tend to be about as talented as you'll find in any rock outfit by far.

Speaker 3 Yeah, 100%. They all have chops.

Speaker 3 That was another thing that got me a little bit into metal was I started playing guitar when I was 13 and immediately subscribed to Guitar Player magazine,

Speaker 3 which was, I mean, that's how I knew about all those guitar players. Emily always makes fun of me when she's like,

Speaker 3 Judas Priest. And I'll go, Glenn Tipton and K.K.
Downing. And I can name all these guitar players.

Speaker 3 It's from pouring over that magazine. Like, I wasn't even that into Judas Priest, but I knew these guys from these articles.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 I still to this day lament that I had a terrible teacher for electric guitar on my salmon colored, I don't even remember what kind of guitar it was, but I remember I complained about him before, and someone who had that same teacher rode in and was like, I know exactly what you're talking about.

Speaker 2 That guy sucked.

Speaker 3 Oh, man. Who knows what could have happened?

Speaker 2 They even told me the band. I can't remember what the band was.

Speaker 2 I wouldn't name Check him anyway because I don't want to shame the guy, but he was a terrible guitar teacher, and I was really into it at the time.

Speaker 3 Well, I got a BC Rich, candy apple red BC Rich guitar because of that early sort of hard rock influence, because it's kind of a corny guitar now.

Speaker 3 Did not get a warlock for people who know BC Rich guitars. That's one of the most metal-looking guitars ever.

Speaker 2 Oh, is it like the triangle? The flying triangle?

Speaker 3 No, no, no. That's the flying V.
Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 Which they don't call it the flying triangle.

Speaker 3 The flying V can definitely be metal, but it also has been used in a lot of classic rock.

Speaker 2 Well, what's the one you're talking about?

Speaker 3 I'll send you a picture of it.

Speaker 3 You'd know it as soon as you saw it. Okay.

Speaker 2 You probably don't have your phone, though, right? Oh, there it is.

Speaker 3 I'll send it to you, and you'll text me after.

Speaker 2 What else, Chuck? Anything else?

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, you've got to mention Lord of the Rings because we kind of joked about it, but Lord of the Rings has been in a lot of metal songs, like figuratively, like thematically and literally.

Speaker 2 Yes. So, yeah, there's like the like Led Zeppelin's song about the darkest depths of mortar and all sorts of other stuff, too.
And throughout like their whole catalog,

Speaker 2 I think, who else was well known for that? I think Megadeth had a song that was based on Aragon's speech in the return of the king.

Speaker 2 Like, it's a really recurring,

Speaker 2 it is, it's a trope. There's no other way to put it.
It's been in heavy metal from the outset still through today. People are referencing it in some ways.

Speaker 2 In some cases, like, like, there's a group called Burzum. It was a solo project by Varg Vickernese.
He was imprisoned for murdering former bandmate Euronymus from Mayhem. Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 And then he was also charged with burning down churches in the... He's from the black metal scene.
Anyway, Burzum

Speaker 2 does not talk about

Speaker 2 Lord of the Rings stuff at all. And yet, it's still from Lord of the Rings.
Bersum is. But this, I think, kind of gets across how black metal the Bersum project was.

Speaker 2 Bersum in Lord of the Rings means darkness in the black speech that's spoken in mortar. So it's dark in the darkest place, and it means darkness in that dark place language.

Speaker 2 That's how dark that black metal was.

Speaker 3 And their album cover is Vanta Black.

Speaker 2 That's right. No light can escape from it.

Speaker 3 We should also mention, we'll take a break here in a sec, but we should also mention the Gothic font. I mentioned fonts.

Speaker 3 You got to have the right font on your metal album. Sabbath definitely was kind of one of the first, I think.
Their album Sabbath, Bloody Sabbath, used the old English black letter typeface.

Speaker 3 And there's nothing spookier looking than black letter, you know?

Speaker 2 No, for sure, but what's hilarious is it's just evolved and evolved and evolved to where very frequently you'll run across a metal album cover and you'll be like, What? What is the band's name?

Speaker 2 I can't, I can't decipher this at all. I can't even read it, it's just so tangled.
Like, I can't tell what it says.

Speaker 2 Sometimes, when you find out the band's name, you'll be like, Oh, okay, I see it now, but other times, like, I still don't see it.

Speaker 3 It's pretty funny. It's like uh, that was very spinal tap,

Speaker 2 yeah, yes, it is, yeah, And they definitely should at least get name checked in this episode, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely. In fact, just today at their new trailer for the Spinal Tap sequel dropped.

Speaker 2 Oh, really?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 It doesn't look that great, but I don't know. I'm going to definitely see it.
I'm withholding judgment.

Speaker 2 It just, it doesn't look very good. No, I think it was just, I don't know.

Speaker 3 I mean, it's a good enough concept, like get the old band back together for one more show. So it's not like

Speaker 3 the idea isn't solid. Like, that's a very

Speaker 3 realistic thing for an old metal band.

Speaker 3 I just, I don't know.

Speaker 2 We'll see.

Speaker 3 All right. So enough of fonts.
Let's take a break and we'll talk about some brain stuff and album covers and social views and all that fun stuff right after this.

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Speaker 2 All right, Chuck. So if you are not a metal listener, but you're aware of heavy metal just in general, you probably associate it with Satanic stuff.

Speaker 2 And again, in some cases, you're absolutely right. And not like Satanic in the Satanic Temple or Satanism, like Satan, the folkloric, mythological, evil one.

Speaker 2 Like some bands are super, super into that, right?

Speaker 2 But there's also a lot of other stuff remember we talked about iron maiden having all these different themes to their songs one of the things that metal is not necessarily known for but it's a big part of it they have like pretty strong social views and if you really kind of drill down into them it's essentially super populist um anti-establishment anti-fascism uh anti-authoritarian messages frequently anti-aggression too especially the government on the government's behalf the government being aggressive.

Speaker 2 You can find that throughout the entire metal community. And I think a lot of people kind of overlook it.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean,

Speaker 3 cast aside the black metal scene, which,

Speaker 3 like you mentioned in,

Speaker 3 I guess it was part one where there's a lot of like white supremacist threads and things like that and far-right ideology.

Speaker 3 If you cast that aside, Cast aside 80s hair metal, which just sang about chicks.

Speaker 3 One might make the argument that heavy metal is a very sort of low-key leftist musical genre.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like, okay, so take Metallica, for example, starting with Ride the Lightning, the title song, it's back from 1984.

Speaker 2 It's basically about like how

Speaker 2 it questions the government's state monopoly on violence, right? Like their moral right to execute anybody. That's pretty anti-authoritarian.
It's also pretty libertarian throughout.

Speaker 2 So if the if the lyrics aren't left-leaning in general, they also tend to be libertarian too.

Speaker 2 And their whole album, Injustice for All, song after song after song, has a huge, robust political message to it, basically across the entire album. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 The song one is an anti-war song. Injustice for All is about the corruption of the justice system.

Speaker 3 I of the Beholder, that's about the repression of freedom of speech and expression.

Speaker 3 What else?

Speaker 2 The shortest straw is about fascism, which went riding through.

Speaker 2 Blackened is a straight-up, overt, environmentalist song. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 They literally talk about like poisoning mother nature.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and you find this, like, it's not just Metallica, you find this throughout, um, throughout the metal community.

Speaker 2 Like, even if it's not like clear immediately, if you actually stop and listen to the subtext of what the song is saying, it's usually about the powerful and the elite being served at the expense of the masses, the populist masses.

Speaker 2 That is essentially what you can boil almost every song, again, saving black metal and death metal too, down into. Like, that's the message of just about every

Speaker 2 metal song at its heart. At least one song on the album is going to be like that.

Speaker 3 Yeah, even old Dave Mustaine with Megadeth. I mean, peace sells, but who's buying?

Speaker 3 He's singing about peace just like the hippies in the 60s might might have been, just through a very different, you know, sort of genre.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and some people actually credit him for promoting metal music to have messages.

Speaker 2 He was taking a shot clearly at hair bands too at the same time, but there was an interview with him in the LA Times in 1986 where he said, a band should be aware of what's going on instead of being so wrapped up in themselves, Cece Deville.

Speaker 2 That's apparently ironic. Yeah.
That's a great business. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 And then, you know, you have cases where like Pantera's former frontman, Phil Anselmo, was caught on video shouting white power on stage and giving a Nazi salute.

Speaker 3 And like the metal community was outraged. Like people came out, you know, speaking out against them, not the least of which was Scott Ian of Anthrax saying like, you know, that's a vile thing to do.

Speaker 3 And they were, you know, it was heartening to see that kind of thing, you know?

Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was about as close to being canceled as you can get in the metal community, which isn't really a cancel culture, you know?

Speaker 3 Is that not a thing? No.

Speaker 2 And then it actually goes all the way to the far left, and this is much less typical, but you have like grindcore bands like Napalm Death that came out of the hardcore punk tradition of being very socially left, even into like the anarchist territory, essentially.

Speaker 2 But for the most part, it's probably center left, maybe libertarian, is the bulk of the messages that you'll find in metal music.

Speaker 3 Can we talk about how your brain does on heavy metal?

Speaker 3 Because they've actually done some studies that have found, um and of course you know we should say there's there are people that have struggle with mental health where um music and certainly metal has had some negative impacts yeah and there are examples of that but um

Speaker 3 you know aside from that it seems like metal uh

Speaker 3 actually like kind of tests and taxes your brain in a good way maybe taxes in the right word challenges your brain in a good way yes because it immediately starts firing to start making sense of this sort of musical puzzle and all these complex rhythms and time signatures that kind of go hand in hand.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So your brain basically is

Speaker 2 being worked out. Like it's not just sitting there like being vibed at, like it's working, trying to decode all this stuff.

Speaker 2 And yet, paradoxically, for a lot of people, they report that it actually helps improve their focus. I think people with ADHD and people on the autism spectrum tend to report that

Speaker 2 heavy metal actually helps them focus better, which is pretty, pretty interesting because if your brain's decoding that, you would think that it would be focused on that, but it's not.

Speaker 2 It can do that separately, apparently. And then also emotionally, it seems to have positive effects too.

Speaker 3 Yeah, for sure. I mean, there are so many, you know, hundreds of thousands or millions of heavy metal fans that may be despondent or angry or frustrated or sad or something.

Speaker 3 And this music provides a real outlet, you know, whether whether they're just in their room on their headphones or they're driving around in their car through their, you know, weird suburbia that they don't relate to, or whether they're going to a concert.

Speaker 3 And it provides a real legitimate release for that stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And that's not just like anecdotal. There have actually been studies

Speaker 2 that have been published in peer-reviewed journals that show that there are positive emotional effects that are experienced by metalheads from listening to metal music.

Speaker 2 There's one from 2013 that studied 414 British metalheads. And they found a mixed bag, right?

Speaker 2 They found that they had a higher openness to experience, which is one of the big five personality traits, generally considered positive. They have more negative attitudes toward authority.

Speaker 2 Can't really disagree with that if you are questioning the authority of a corrupt government, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure. Lower self-esteem.
Didn't quite understand that. That might just be that metal music attracts people with lower self-esteem.
I don't think it gives people lower self-esteem.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think that's the case.

Speaker 2 Greater need for uniqueness.

Speaker 2 Love it. And then lower religiosity, religiosity.
That's not very surprising either.

Speaker 2 You know, I was like, are they playing them? Like, are they confused and they think Van Halen's metal and that's what they're playing? Like the 1984 album.

Speaker 2 But it turns out like they're playing like legit metal stuff.

Speaker 2 Like they played As I Lay Dying, Cradle of Faith, Overkill, like actual metal, and they were still getting these results, which I found heartening.

Speaker 3 Yeah, for sure. There was another study I thought was pretty interesting from 2019.
It was 32 fans of metal, 44 non-fans of metal.

Speaker 3 And they found, and this one's important because I think especially in the 80s with the PMRC, there was a lot of just gobbity gook going around that like, it's going to make your child something.

Speaker 3 It's going to make them into this. It's going to make them violent.

Speaker 3 And in that study in 2019, they found that metal heads have the same negative bias toward seeing violent imagery that people who don't listen to metal have.

Speaker 3 even if they're listening to metal that has violent lyrics and themes, it doesn't then transfer, like if they see an image of violence, they're still like, oh, I don't want to see that.

Speaker 2 Right, exactly. I don't actually want to do that.
Right. I just want to, yeah, exactly.
It's just rocks. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 It just keeps going on and on.

Speaker 2 I think the point of these studies, especially if you compile them together like we did, is that there's just such a dumb misunderstanding or wrong interpretation of what metal is and what it does.

Speaker 2 Again, accepting black metal, they're definitely the outliers here.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So we've talked a little bit about the genres and subgenres, but we'll dig in a little more here because

Speaker 3 it gets really confusing. And I don't know many of these bands at all, but I feel like we should just mention a few of these subgenres, right?

Speaker 2 Do you want to? You want to go through this kind of anatomy of just a single subgregation, I mean, I feel like, I mean, were all those under Mathcore? Yes. This is where Mathcore came from.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, sure. Okay.

Speaker 2 So Mathcore is a type of

Speaker 2 metal music, very, very, very niche subgenre. And it's so niche that the bands of this subgenre have names like the Tony Danza Tap Dance Experience or the Dillinger Escape Plan.
Okay. Super niche.

Speaker 2 And Mathcore is a combination of Metal Core and Math Rock. And I know you know what Math Rock is, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I used to listen to a little bit of that in college. That is rock music that's very complex musically, a lot of weird time signatures, a lot of

Speaker 3 starts and stops.

Speaker 3 If you've heard Math Rock and

Speaker 3 you may have heard it and not known it was Math Rock, but you just thought, like, like, what an interesting odd band.

Speaker 2 So you've got Math Rock. Math Rock, you said with its interesting, like, time signatures and

Speaker 2 very technical playing, that evolved from prog rock, like Rush, Genesis, King, Crimson, yes, from the 70s, right? Yeah, and then Math Rock was also

Speaker 2 influenced by jazz. That's just Math Rock.
That's one part that Mathcore is made up of. On the other side, you've got Metal Core, the other half of Math Core.

Speaker 2 It's a combination of hardcore and extreme metal. You might say, oh, okay, hardcore punk.
No, wrong. Hardcore is different if you're a purist from hardcore punk.

Speaker 2 Hardcore is like bands like Code Orange, Vein. Hardcore Punk is Minor Threat, Black Flag.
They're very closely related. They sound similar, but they're different subgenres.

Speaker 2 So Metal Core is hardcore and extreme metal, which is a big umbrella term for a bunch of other types of metal too.

Speaker 3 Okay, and extreme metal is also under Mathcore?

Speaker 2 Yes. So extreme metal is one of the bases or is the basis of metal core.
And there's different types of subgenres in extreme metal.

Speaker 2 You've got death metal, black metal, progressive metal, kind of like prog rock, but metal, doom metal, stoner metal. These are all varieties of extreme metal.

Speaker 2 And so, all of those can have their own core, right? Their own version of metal core.

Speaker 2 And so, probably progressive extreme metal with hardcore, that version of metal core probably eventually led to metal core. This is how divided and cut up the genre of heavy metal is.

Speaker 2 That's how niche it's gotten into. And again, some people will come along and be like, this sounds just like progressive metal to me.
You'd be like, no, it's math core. Get it right.
You know,

Speaker 2 that's essentially like

Speaker 2 I just find it fascinating that people have gotten that

Speaker 2 into the weeds. And I've seen in a couple of places,

Speaker 2 probably on Reddit or something, where people are like, this is ridiculous. Let's just take a big step back and get out of this this mindset because it's getting kind of weird.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, there are definitely some genres that have subgenres, but I don't think there's anything that approaches metal.

Speaker 3 Even like,

Speaker 3 I don't know, even hip-hop has a lot of subgenres, but I don't think it comes close to metal even.

Speaker 2 No, no, I don't think anything does. I mean, you can basically take anything and give it several sub-genre titles, suffixes, or prefixes, and you probably have an actual like metal subgenre.

Speaker 3 Yeah, agreed.

Speaker 2 I just found that interesting. I appreciate you taking that little diversion with me.
I love it.

Speaker 3 All right, we'll take another break here and come back and finish up the part two of the two-part duology. And we're going to talk about album covers and the death of Randy Rhodes right after this.

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Speaker 3 All right, Promise Talk of Album Covers. I want to give a big, big shout out to a guy named Blake Massey, who wrote a really great article on themetalpit.org.

Speaker 3 And also shout out Sherry Thomas from The Aquarian, because Blake wrote a really, really great piece on heavy metal album art.

Speaker 3 And, you know, basically kind of pointing out and making the case that that's where it all starts is like being in the record store, seeing this imagery, Black Sabbath kind of starting it all with just dark imagery, very provocative stuff.

Speaker 3 A lot of times, you know, like sometimes they would hire out just a company, but I feel like, especially with metal, many times the band is very closely involved in the vision for the album cover because I mean, album covers are always important, but it feels like metal, they're even more important.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's just part of the experience, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like you, you buy the poster even if you're like me and you're into Iron Maiden's poster art, not really their music yet.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because it's legit, amazing art. I mentioned in part one, I think, about the Black Sabbath self-titled debut album in 1970.

Speaker 3 One of the most terrifying album covers I've ever seen. It's just a

Speaker 3 photograph. It's got this cloaked figure.
It looks like a woman standing in front of this old, like, you know, torn down, or not torn down, but just sort of dilapidated building.

Speaker 3 And this was in 1970 when like psychedelia and colorful album art was a thing, and it was just very, very creepy looking.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but it also said, hey, everybody, like, we're going in a different direction here. Check this out.
Like, I can't imagine what that landed like. It must have just looked so different.

Speaker 2 Like, think about Led Zeppelin's album covers. The grimmest one they had was the Hindenburg explosion in black and white.
Yeah. You know, like that was, that was as grim as their album covers got.

Speaker 2 Like this is, this is spooky. Like it's definitely different.
I just think that's really cool, like to think back of just how, how some people must have seen this and been like, I'm reborn.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, you know, there's a range, like everything.
You can look at something like the cover of Number of the Beast.

Speaker 3 We already talked about the great Derek Riggs and Eddie, their mascot. But

Speaker 3 if you look at their album covers, Iron Maidens, especially, they're just, they're so intricate and there's so much to see when you sit down on your floor with your headphones on as a teenager. Yeah.

Speaker 3 But they can also be a little more simplistic. Like if you look at the great cover for Metallica's Master of Puppets from 1986, you know, a little can say a lot.

Speaker 3 It's just their, first of all, you got to have a great logo. And Metallica's logo is always great.
It is. As is Iron Maidens.
Judas Priest has always had a great logo.

Speaker 3 But it's that Metallica logo and then that.

Speaker 3 that cemetery with those crosses connected to the puppet strings. It's just like kind of chilling to see.

Speaker 3 So shout out to Metallica and Peter Minch, who designed that one.

Speaker 2 And we talked about, well, I talked about Rain and Blood earlier.

Speaker 2 And its album cover is actually, it's art. Like it's, it's very clearly like a painting.
I can't remember who did it. I'm not, I'm not actually sure.
Oh, Larry Carroll.

Speaker 2 And it's basically hell. It's just a landscape of hell.
There's off to the foreground in the left, there's some heads floating in a lake of blood.

Speaker 2 There's a goat on a throne presiding over this horrible place. The pope is wandering around wondering what the hell's going on.

Speaker 2 But it has its own style even. It's not like if you look at Holy Diver, the Dio album cover.
It's almost like it's cartoon realism almost.

Speaker 2 This is art. It's like a style of a painter that the Rain and Blood cover is, which makes it even more unsettling, I think.

Speaker 3 Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that Holy Diver cover is great. You know, Dio has an amazing logo.
And they also have a mascot named Murray.

Speaker 2 Did you know that?

Speaker 3 I didn't. I guess now that I think of some Dio artwork, I realize that I've seen that masked person.
I did not know that his name was Murray.

Speaker 2 I didn't either. He reminds me of the black spy from Spy vs.
Spy. He's just not wearing the hat.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 I never really thought about that. I didn't either until I saw him.

Speaker 3 Yeah, just go check out the the Holy Diver cover.

Speaker 3 It's great because Murray is kind of standing up, you know, behind a mountain, whipping a chain that's wrapped around a priest who's in the ocean with the waves lapping and he's clearly struggling to stay alive.

Speaker 2 And Dio, by the way, he took over

Speaker 2 after Ozzie left Black Sabbath.

Speaker 2 I think it was him immediately after Ozzy, right? Yeah, it was. But he was also in another band with an album cover that we talked about before, Rainbow.

Speaker 2 Their album cover for Rising is one of my favorite. Not even just metal album covers, just album cover in general.
It's got a very pretty rainbow on it.

Speaker 3 It is very pretty. Guns and Roses, we should talk about.
I mean, so I don't really throw them in the metal crowd, but I think maybe early on they might have been thrown in that group of hair metal.

Speaker 3 But, you know, very famously, their original appetite for destruction artwork was very controversial for obvious reasons. You know, trigger warning here because

Speaker 3 it's drawn, you know, like a cartoon, but it depicts a sexual assault that's happened from a robot.

Speaker 3 And people were like, we can't put this on our shelves. Record stores were saying that.
So Geffen Records was like, yeah, maybe we are going a little too far here.

Speaker 3 They put that on the inside cover sleeve and then ended up with an iconic cover as a result that, again, it's drawn like a animated sort of drawing, but it's that Celtic cross with each band member's head at various points on the cross.

Speaker 3 And again, another great logo.

Speaker 2 It is. It turned out pretty good.
I heard Geffen's first idea was to put a nice price sticker over the offensive painting.

Speaker 3 Is that a joke? It is.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 I mean, it wouldn't surprise me.

Speaker 2 Remember those stickers? The nice price.

Speaker 3 That's right. I do want to mention the one more, though, before we get to Randy Rhodes, Quiet Riot, because

Speaker 3 they were the very first metal band to hit number one on the charts.

Speaker 2 With which one, Metal Health or Come On Feel the Noise, or both?

Speaker 3 Well, Metal Health, that was the album. Come on, Feel the Noise was on that album.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but they also released the song Metal Health as a single, right?

Speaker 3 That was also on that album.

Speaker 2 Right. So which one reached number one first? Or do you mean their whole album reached number one?

Speaker 2 Yes. I got it finally.
Everyone, you can stop screaming at your speakers.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they're the first metal band to have a number one record. Metal Health came out and kind of changed the game.
And

Speaker 3 it featured the man in the iron mask very famously. It's a pretty cool album cover.
And that guy was. in the videos as well.

Speaker 2 I've always wanted to play that album during seeding for one of our shows, but those two songs are really the only good ones on there. The rest are just slimy.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So I've always skipped it. But yeah, Mental Health, that is a great song, which is ironic.
It's bang your head, mental health will drive you mad. I think he says it just like that.

Speaker 2 It's funny. It's a very slow song.
So, I mean, you can bang your head to it, but you do it very slowly. That's right.

Speaker 2 So, Chuck, you had said you specifically wanted to end this on a huge downer, and I think you've really knocked it out of the park with your choice to talk about Randy Rhodes and his untimely death at age 25.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, I think we both had our kind of big things we wanted in here. Yours was Iron Maiden, and mine was the death of Randy Rhodes, because it was one of the saddest things to happen to music.

Speaker 3 Big shout out to Rex Thompson. He wrote a great piece on it for liveforlivemusic.com.
But Randy Rhodes was a great kid. He was a very soft-spoken guy, a virtuoso from the jump as a teenager.

Speaker 3 And so much so that when, apparently, when he was a kid practicing so much, his mom like called a doctor and was like, can this hurt my son's fingies?

Speaker 3 Like, could this cause permanent damage to his little fingies?

Speaker 2 I read also that she was a piano player, so she must have been, he must have really been playing.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So he formed Quiet Riot. I had no idea about this.
My only understanding of Quiet Riot was from mental health onward. All right, let's just be honest.
It was mental Health. That's it.

Speaker 2 So he formed Quiet Riot back in 1973.

Speaker 2 I had no idea that Randy Rhodes was in Quiet Riot or that Quiet Riot had been around 10 full years before Mental Health came out.

Speaker 3 He was a child, basically. And

Speaker 3 same, you know, Kevin Dubrow was a singer and everything, but they signed to CBS Records.

Speaker 3 The band was kind of taking a different direction than he thought, like, I'm better than what we're doing. And he was right.

Speaker 3 And he left the band, uh, was pretty frustrated. And he got a call that Ozzie Osborne had left Sabbath and was forming a new band.

Speaker 3 And as the story goes, he auditioned for a very hungover Ozzy Osbourne and was warming up with some scales. And Ozzy was like, You got the job.

Speaker 2 Pretty great. Yeah.
And that was it. So he became, I mean, just an absolute legend thanks to his stint with

Speaker 2 Ozzy.

Speaker 2 Right. Was Ozzie's band just Ozzy Osborne?

Speaker 3 Yeah, it it wasn't just Ozzy Osborne.

Speaker 2 Ozzy Osborne and the Dewops or the five dimes or something like that?

Speaker 3 No, it was just him. And, you know, the saddest part about all this is that he was, um, he really awoke something in Ozzie and became very, very good friends with he and his wife.

Speaker 3 I guess they weren't even married at the time, but his eventual wife, Sharon,

Speaker 3 who I saw at a restaurant in L.A. last year, by the way.

Speaker 3 But he lived with them when he was in England and was part of the family, basically. A very playful,

Speaker 3 spirited, really nice kid and just absolute slayer on the guitar until a very, very sad day in 1982.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it is terribly sad. It was so unnecessary, Randy Rose death.
And again, like this guy is finally starting to hit the stride that he has known he could get to his whole life.

Speaker 3 He was crazy trained. You know, everyone's heard crazy train.
That's Randy Rose. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, and he was also, like you said, he was a good guy like people just loved him right so he was 25 at the time it was the day after a show in knoxville tennessee um the uh tour bus had made it out of tennessee through georgia safely into florida and they stopped in a town called leesburg florida to repair their bus which makes sense because leesburg florida is well known as the bus repair capital of florida And so they decided to take the whole the whole day off.

Speaker 2 The day they were going to spend the night in Leesburg. So they were just messing around that day.

Speaker 2 And again, they had a show the night before, and everybody was either hungover or still messed up from the night before.

Speaker 2 Apparently, Randy Rhodes and Ozzie had had an argument backstage at the Knoxville show because Randy Rhodes was concerned about Ozzie's behaviors, drinking. He was like, you're going to die young.

Speaker 2 You're going to kill yourself if you keep this up. Ozzy didn't like that.
So he stormed off. And they hadn't made up yet because Ozzie was still sleeping.

Speaker 2 Even Randy was now awake and people were messing around in Leesburg.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he was sleeping on the bus. So

Speaker 3 the bus driver, he was a former commercial pilot. His name was Andrew Acock.

Speaker 3 And there was a Beechcraft Bonanza propeller plane, a 1957 Beechcraft on the property. And he was like, hey, I can fly that thing.
Let's take it for a spin.

Speaker 3 The plane was unguarded. And so he and initially keyboardist Don Airy and tour manager Jake Duncan got on board, flew around a little bit.
and landed safely. And then after that, he was like, hey,

Speaker 3 anyone else want to take a ride? Young, spirited, awesome Randy Rhodes is like, yeah, man, I'll go up there. That looks like a blast.

Speaker 3 And then the seamstress for the band, Rachel Youngblood, also boarded the plane. And while they were up there, Randy Rhodes is like, hey, Ozzy's, you know, sleeping off another hangover.

Speaker 3 Let's like buzz the bus and see if we can wake him up.

Speaker 2 So they did, right?

Speaker 2 They did four times. And each time,

Speaker 2 Acock, Andrew Acock, was like, I can get closer. We can do it faster.
And they managed to do it three different times. On the fourth time, their luck ran out.
And I guess his wing clipped the bus.

Speaker 2 And it doesn't take much pressure to send a plane going 150 miles an hour, careening, spinning out of control. And that's exactly what happened.
The plane struck the ground and slid or hit a tree.

Speaker 2 And Randy Rhodes and Rachel Youngblood were ejected. probably dead immediately from the plane.
I believe Andrew Acock was left in the plane.

Speaker 2 It exploded into flames, but not before it had cruised into and taken a stop in some poor Schmo's garage.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Ozzy slept through the plane hitting the bus that he was on somehow.

Speaker 3 That explosion woke him up, and apparently emergency services weren't quick to get there, but it's pretty clear that everyone died immediately.

Speaker 3 The autopsy showed that Acock had still had cocaine in his system, and Ozzy was like, yeah, he testified that he was using Coke like well into the night.

Speaker 2 He was the bus driver.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Well into the night. This was the next morning.

Speaker 3 And his

Speaker 3 pilot's license had expired a long time ago. And,

Speaker 3 you know, that was it. We don't have any like black box recording or anything.
It was just

Speaker 3 a huge loss to the music world and a huge, huge loss to the Osborne family who loved him so much. And Ozzy was already in bad shape.
And this was.

Speaker 3 the beginning of a very, very bad, dark time for him.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he said since that Randy Rhodes' death sent him spiraling down that path that Randy Rhodes had argued with him about getting off of in the first place.

Speaker 2 Because, like you said, they they formed some sort of bond

Speaker 2 that just didn't last very long and just broke Ozzie's heart, I guess.

Speaker 3 Yeah, super, super sad.

Speaker 2 It is sad, and I've been thinking, okay, how can we end this on a slightly higher note? And I've got it, Chuck. Kawaii metal.

Speaker 2 Do you know what kawaii means in Japanese? No, cute,

Speaker 2 right?

Speaker 2 So cute. Kawaii metal means cute metal.
It's Japanese metal. It combines J-pop, right, with metal, and it actually kind of works.
So if you're curious about

Speaker 2 J-pop metal or kawaii metal, look up the bands Baby Metal and Lady Baby, and that'll be a pretty good start down your journey into the J-pop metal realm.

Speaker 3 All right. And I want to quickly, I know I promised in part one, the Rolling Stone top 10 metal albums of all time, so I don't want to leave that off, and I'll just quickly go through from 10 to 1.

Speaker 3 We've got Pantera with Vulgar Display of Power, Ozzy's Blizzard of Oz at 9, Megadeth Peace Sells, but Who's Buying at 8, Motorheads, No Remorse at 7, Slayers Rain and Blood at 6, Sabbath, self-titled Black Sabbath at number 5,

Speaker 3 Number of the Beasts from Iron Maiden at number 4, Judas Priest, British Steel, great record at number 3,

Speaker 3 Master of Puppets at number 2 from Metallica and number one with a bullet.

Speaker 3 Paranoid from Black Sabbath. And I know what you're thinking.
Where else is Iron Maiden?

Speaker 3 They were also at 13 besides number four with their debut record. Okay.

Speaker 2 I dispute a lot of that, but let's just not get into it, okay?

Speaker 3 It's a Rolling Stone list. You know how those go.

Speaker 2 They really, I think they're just trolls, essentially.

Speaker 3 Yeah, probably.

Speaker 2 Well, I think that's it, everybody. That's everything we have to say about heavy metal right now.
And again, sorry we we did not name check your favorite band.

Speaker 2 If you want to tell us to get into something, email us. We love that kind of thing.
And we hope you enjoyed this. We did the best we could.
Thanks again to Olivia for taking this journey with us.

Speaker 2 And since I said that, of course it's time for listener mail.

Speaker 3 You know what? I'm going to call an audible here. Not going to do a listener mail.
Instead, I want to shout out a book writer.

Speaker 3 I've been meaning to do this for a while and it kind of fits because I know that the author, Keith Rosson, is into some heavy music. I don't know if it's metal or what.

Speaker 3 I just know he's into some pretty hardcore music.

Speaker 3 I took

Speaker 3 a flyer on a book with a cool cover a long time ago. Finally took it on vacation.

Speaker 3 It's a duology called Feverhouse.

Speaker 3 And the second book is called The Devil by Name.

Speaker 3 Great, great horror books. I've never read horror in my life.

Speaker 3 There's a thread of humanity and

Speaker 3 the characters and and the heart of his stories are incredible. And then you've also got good horror stuff.
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 So recommend Feverhouse and the Devil by Name from Keith. And then his upcoming book, I had shouted him out on Instagram.
He got in touch. It's a weird kind of Instagram messaging now.

Speaker 3 And his book publisher sent me a galley of his new book out this fall. It's called Coffin Moon.
This one's about vampires. And it is great.

Speaker 3 And so sign up for the pre-sale. It's just, I can't wait to read what he does next.
And Keith is like a super cool guy.

Speaker 3 So Feverhouse, The Devil My Name, and the upcoming Coffin Moon, which that one's about vampires. Like I said, it's next.

Speaker 2 By Keith.

Speaker 3 Keith Rossen, R-O-S-S-O-N.

Speaker 2 Okay, since you said that, I've been trying to figure out how to shout out two horror movies that I've seen recently that are like... Oh, great.
These are the best I've seen in a really long time.

Speaker 2 One's Japanese. It's got subtitles.
It's called Best Wishes. Ringu? No.
That's a good one, though. This is called Best Wishes to All.
it's it's a hundred times more off the chain than ringu um

Speaker 2 it's not as scary as the grudge or the the japanese version of the grudge uh it's it's just nuts it's really good though another one is one of the darkest horror movies i've ever seen it's it centers on snuff films

Speaker 2 it's called red rooms they do such a good job that they don't even actually show any of the the videos in question And it's more about this woman's descent into madness, you know, being into this kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 It's just an amazing, amazing movie. It's not for everybody, but if it is for you, you will love this movie.

Speaker 2 And I think if you can just get past the weirdness and enjoy it, I think just about anybody could enjoy best wishes to all.

Speaker 3 I love it. I enjoy when we throw out these recommendations.
That's great.

Speaker 2 Okay, Chuck. That was great.
That was a great end to the metal episodes, too, I think. Good job.

Speaker 3 Yeah, those were fun. I feel like we could have done a part three, four, five, six, to be honest.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 If you want to get in touch with us about heavy metal or anything, you can send it via email. Send it off to stuffpodcast at iHeartRadio.com.

Speaker 1 Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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Speaker 2 Living with a rare autoimmune condition comes with challenges, but also incredible strength, especially for those living with conditions like myasthenia gravis or MG and chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, otherwise known as CIDP.

Speaker 2 Finding empowerment in the community is critical.

Speaker 2 Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production, and partnership with Argenix explores people discovering strength in the most unexpected places.

Speaker 2 Listen to Untold Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.