Short Stuff: Bliss Point

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Hey, and welcome to The Short Stuff.

Josh, Chuck, Jerry, not Dave, but Dave still anyway.

It's Short Stuff.

That's right.

Another banger of a job by you.

Thanks to your research with Science of Food Journal, The Marketing Sage, Optimizing Nutrition, Across the Margin.

Our old friends at HowStuffWorks.com,

MASHed, and Pinoleon, The pinnolean, whatever that is.

That's right, right.

Yeah, they were all very good resources because this is kind of like a wide-ranging topic.

We're talking about bliss, the bliss point, which is essentially what food scientists have come up with to make you eat and crave junk food ceaselessly.

Yeah, you have a pretty startling stat here out of the gate.

The average American consumed, and this was a few years ago in 2022, 126.4 grams of sugar a day which is 101 pounds or 46 kilos of sugar per american per year some people say it's like up to 150 which is a ton of sugar uh in 1915 that number was about 17 and a half pounds and processed foods were developed in that time span and that's literally to blame yeah for sure And that's added sugar.

That's not like the sugar from fruit.

It's the sugar that you could like put into a package and sell at the store.

That's the sugar that they're counting right there.

Yeah.

And there's a guy named Michael Moss.

He wrote a book that you probably have heard of called Salt, Sugar, and Fat.

Came out, I don't know, within the last decade or so.

But he talks about a market researcher named Howard Moskowitz.

And Moskowitz basically gave us the food industry as we understand it today.

And I looked up and down to see if he expressed any remorse at the end of his life.

And he doesn't seem to have been anything but proud of his work.

But the reason he revolutionized the food industry industry is that in the 70s, he identified the idea of bliss points.

Like it was almost a discovery is more than an invention.

And that is the perfect balance between fat, sugar, and salt in any given food product.

It's not the same for every food product.

It's specific to each individual Dorito or Cheeto or whatever.

And if you do it right, people are just going to eat those things constantly and they're not going to stop.

They're going to have trouble stopping, in fact.

Yeah, he was what's known as a psychophysicist.

And they are people who look at the relationship between a stimulus and your brain's response to it.

And in this case, we're talking about taste as far as the stimulus.

And then as far as our brain's response, it's like, I want to eat all of that that I can.

Right.

And he was a, eventually became known as like a really, pretty brilliant market researcher who would pump out these really detailed reports on consumer

on consumers consuming.

And some of these could be like over a hundred pages long, like really drilled down to like kind of weird levels of specificity and granularity.

And he would discover a bliss point of something.

And I think he's really well known for helping Prego, the saucier, come up with their chunky variety.

And he introduced 32 different mustards and 17 different olive oils and a lot of other products to the the market.

Yeah.

And again, by just doing this exhaustive market research and interviews and focus groups and testing to just figure out what people wanted and then figure out how to make it so that most, the most people would buy it because it had maximal palatability.

Yeah.

And we have bliss points for

everything, basically.

They're different for different macronutrients.

Bliss points for junk food are just heavily engineered to do that, but there are natural bliss points like protein satisfies people pretty quickly.

So I think

Marty Kendall says on the optimizing nutrition blog.

I had a pretty funny mistake that we beeped out.

That if a food has a protein content of just 14%, that's going to make you feel satisfied.

And that's why a lot of high-protein diets are recommended because you're just probably not going to eat as much because you can feel fuller and become satisfied more quickly.

Yeah.

And also, that's why you rarely find protein in junk food.

Yeah, exactly.

They don't want you to feel satisfied.

They don't want you to feel satiated.

They just want that bliss point such that your brain's just like, keep going, keep going.

And the reason why salt, fat, and sugar are focused on is because those three combined basically set off all of our taste buds, right?

Yeah.

So it really like pumps out a huge message to our brain saying like, this is amazing.

Let's just eat this forever.

And like you said, everything kind of has a bliss point.

And also,

most foods or a lot of foods have these same three ingredients naturally.

But again, these aren't these foods aren't really engineered to keep us going, to maximize the bliss point.

They just kind of have a natural version in it.

You know, like an apple tastes good because it has its own bliss point, but it's not so highly engineered that you don't just keep eating apple after apple.

Yeah, that would make you sick in your belly.

Yes, because they're high in fiber.

They're good for that.

Yeah, should we take a break?

Yeah, we should.

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Well, now when you're on the road, driving in your truck, why not learn a thing or two from Josh and Chuck?

It's stuff you should know.

Stuff you should know.

All right.

So, again, salt, fat, sugar, these three things, if you can get that down, your food company will probably be successful

if you can figure out how to just kind of put them together just right.

And they serve other purposes too, like salt masks the taste of other ingredients pretty well.

Yeah.

Sugar is also a preservative, so the shelf life of a product is extended from it.

But really,

taste is essentially what you're trying to do with this.

But it goes to show you just how um

how not precarious what a just what a juggling act it is yeah to come to the bliss point so it's maximally palatable but also there's enough sugar in there to keep your you know stovetop stuffing from turning bad on the shelf if you don't move them fast enough yeah i mean this is one of those that's kind of disappointing to learn how uh

sort of They're not like, let's make something that people really like and that tastes awesome.

They're like, let's make something that they will eat and eat and eat.

I don't know why it just became German.

That's the problem with the 20th century business mindset that's still around today.

Hook your audience and you'll have profits for your shareholders constantly.

Yeah, from Doritos to social media.

Yeah, it sucks.

So we don't know, you know, you can't get a recipe for Dorito, you know, like an actual recipe.

But that optimizing nutrition blog that you found,

they looked at hundreds of thousands of food logs and came up with some pretty good guesses on sort of a prime bliss point

ratio, I guess.

Yeah.

Wherein sugar makes up or should make up about 23.5% of the calories, salt about 2.9 grams per 2,000 calories, and fat about

24% of the food's calories.

And again, this is not

like the construction of a good diet.

This is if you're looking to maximize that bliss point.

Exactly.

Yeah, it's it's not a good diet.

Right.

So there's other things that come into play that food scientists have figured out along the way.

Do you remember the chewy granola bar revolution of the early 90s?

Yeah, sure.

Those are good.

Chewy mouthfeel was basically investigated, and they figured out how to maximize that.

And then also crunchy, you know, you can't really sneeze at that.

But the biggest, the biggest invention or the biggest discovery,

aside from bliss point, as far as food science goes, is vanishing caloric density, which is really important for junk food.

Yeah, this is incredible.

This is the idea that something that you put in your mouth to eat that has that sort of melt-in-your-mouth quality, your brain doesn't register that you are eating calories.

So that's when, like, popcorn is one of them.

That's why you can sit down and eat a giant tub of popcorn at the movies because it kind of has that melt-in-your-mouth feel.

And your brain's not saying, like, maybe you should put this down because you're eating a lot of calories.

It doesn't signal your brain in that way.

And a little fact that I learned from your research that hits home to my family was that they have found that Cheetos, Michael Moss said that that is the perfect snack for as far as bliss point goes, as far as the crunchy mouthfeel, the flavor ratio, and most importantly, that vanishing caloric density.

And my friend, my wife Emily,

has a Cheeto problem.

such that we don't keep Cheetos in the house.

She's like, I can't stop eating them when they're in the house.

I know how she feels.

I've got some products like that

that I just, I don't keep in the house.

You can't.

I do have to say, though, that it's gotten easier and easier with just how ridiculous the prices are for chips these days.

Yeah, chips are pricey.

It's insane, Chuck.

Like a bag of ruffles printed on the bag is $7.50

for half of a bag of Ruffles potato chips now.

That is insane.

The only good part of it is hopefully more and more people are like, I'm not eating chips anymore.

This is dumb.

Yeah, I mean, we don't eat a lot of that stuff.

You know, when we'll go to the lake for the weekends with like kids and stuff, we'll get like chips and dip, and that's always fun.

I do have a French onion sun chip problem.

Yeah.

Oh, man, I love that so much.

The mouthfeel of those turned me off, actually.

Oh, I love it.

And they also, they're one of those sort of evils that make you think you're eating sort of a healthy, like a multi-grain thing.

And it's like, I don't think those are any healthier than a fried potato chip.

Right.

Well, here, take my hand and help me off of my soapbox because I have a follow-up question about Emily's Cheeto problem.

All right, let's hear it.

Does she like the original Cheetos, the straight-ahead version, or is she more like a fiery hot version kind of Cheeto lover?

No, she's a standard Cheeto, and to be specific, not a cheese puff either,

like a real Cheeto, like a Fred Flintstone Club Cheeto.

But it's funny that she accidentally got some of those flaming hots, and Ruby was like, I want to try those.

And we're like, no, those are way too hot.

You can't eat those.

And she was like, no, I can handle it.

And she ate it.

And it was one of those things where you can see like her eyes starting water.

And she was like, these are really good.

I like these.

She played it off.

Oh, yeah.

She's like, I want to take those to school.

And then we later found she was trading them.

I'm sure.

Yeah.

She's like, here, try one of these.

You'll love it.

Exactly.

So, okay, so just figuring out the bliss point is not enough.

You don't just figure it out and release it.

You try a million different combinations.

Maybe not a million, but not that far off.

And you test it with people.

That's how you fine-tune everything and get it just right so that you find that bliss point that's going to help you sell as much.

And so those taste tests can like really start to add up.

There's some legendary ones, as a matter of fact.

One of them is Prego Chunky.

Yeah, we mentioned that earlier.

They had 45 different versions of Prego Chunky that they were testing until they got to their main one.

And then I'm going to let you handle the Dr.

Pepper because that's just amazing.

Cherry vanilla Dr.

Pepper, they went through 61 different versions and 4,000 different taste tests before they finally released it.

And it's not bad.

I've never tried it.

I mean, I'm not a Dr.

Pepper guy.

It's such a specific, I don't like hate it, but it's just not one I go to.

I'm not either, but that's.

Or wait, maybe it's the cream soda Dr.

Pepper that's not bad.

I don't really drink it either, but I tried one once and I was like, that's actually pretty good.

Yeah.

What about Oreos, Chuck?

Because one of the things they've become known for in the last few years is releasing just nut-so flavors all the time.

Yeah, and you know, this is probably the Gen X in me coming out, but I love a

not, I do love a standard Oreo, but to me, they hit peak Oreo with the double stuff standard.

Oh, really?

You don't like lemon?

No, I mean,

I'm not into lemon-y dessert

desserts.

Yeah, you probably wouldn't like lemon Oreos then.

I think they're very good.

And I also think some of the limited editions they've come out with are pretty good.

Like Birthday Cake, which was the first one they did to commemorate their 100th birthday back in 2012.

To me,

it was very good.

I think it's still around.

To me, the pinnacle was Rice Krispie Treats Oreos.

They were

amazing.

That sounds so good.

They were really, really good.

If they re-released any,

I would definitely go get those.

But I've very fortunately been like, I should probably stop buying like crazy flavored Oreos because I just eat the whole bag like in one sitting, basically.

Oh, man, glass of cold, whole milk.

Yeah, Oreos go really well with that.

But oh, the reason why that they've been releasing so many flavors is that they figured out when they release a crazy flavor, it gets lots of press, so it gets people to the stores, right?

And they found that when people are at the stores to buy that crazy-flavored Oreo, they apparently remember how much they love the original Oreos, like you, so they buy both.

Yeah, that's great to an extent.

I guess it's great for Nabisco.

Yeah, I bet that was a finding too, where they were like, Oh my god, look what's happening.

Yeah, Chuck went to get a Lady Gaga Oreo, and he got the double stuff as well.

I know, that's so weird.

That was one of the flavors.

Um, and I guess before we sign off, Chuck, I think we should remind everybody, as we have many times, Oreo is the knockoff, Hydrox was the original.

That's right.

Uh, Everybody's short stuff is out.

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