Selects: The Tale of the Church of the SubGenius

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Speaker 12 Hey everybody, it's me, Josh, and for this week's Select, I've chosen our October 2021 episode on the Church of the Sub-Genius.

Speaker 12 It's a neat little romp through what started out as a couple of guys who like pamphlets and turned a whole generation, well, some percentage of a whole generation into interesting people skeptical of anything someone is trying to sell them on.

Speaker 12 As you can hear from this intro, it's kind of difficult to describe, so just enjoy listening to the episode.

Speaker 9 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 9 Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's over there wandering around in circles and this is Stuff You Should Know,

Speaker 9 the podcast about the Church of the Sub-Genius at long last.

Speaker 13 When did you become acquainted with the Church of the Sub-Genius?

Speaker 9 I had a

Speaker 9 group of friends that walked on the

Speaker 9 otter side of life, darker side of life, less, you know, less serious side of life, I'm not sure.

Speaker 9 In the 90s, and there was one guy who was big time into the Church of the Sub-Genius.

Speaker 9 That's what happens, right? Yeah, that was my first introduction. Then I actually came across across the hour of slack on Georgia Tech student radio once,

Speaker 9 like in the early 2000s.

Speaker 9 Rec Radio. I never got into it, though.
Are you actually like a secret sub-genii?

Speaker 13 No,

Speaker 13 same as you. I had a friend in college,

Speaker 13 a very influential friend, actually,

Speaker 13 who turned me on to a lot of different things as I was just getting into college and exploring different ways of life and thought patterns.

Speaker 9 Yeah, and sherm sticks.

Speaker 13 Yeah, my buddy Jason,

Speaker 13 he turned me on to a lot of things in life, and I've been able to tell him so, which is always a nice thing. And Bob Dobbs in the Church of Sub-Genius was one of them.

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 9 And like you might not be utterly familiar with the Church of the Sub-Genius, but I'll bet there's a pretty good chance that a lot of stuff you should know, listeners, are at least familiar with it without even being fully aware of what it is.

Speaker 9 But there's a very, very famous picture of a clean-cut, mid-century, middle-aged dude with a pipe clenched in his teeth and almost like a

Speaker 9 Patrick Bateman psychotic look on his face.

Speaker 13 Patrick Bateman meets word cleaver.

Speaker 9 Exactly. Yes, Chuck.
I don't think anyone's ever put it better than that. And that is J.R.
Bob Dobbs, who is the high prophet of the Church of the Sub-Genius.

Speaker 9 And he has popped up everywhere from the background at Pee Wee's Playhouse. There was a Sublime Wrecker that had him on there.

Speaker 9 Like he shows up all over the place. It's almost like code.

Speaker 9 And so you probably have seen it even if you're not familiar with The Church of the Sub-Genius. That's called the Dobbs Head.

Speaker 13 Right.

Speaker 13 Gathered from clip art, which we will see. It's kind of one of the fun end jokes about a

Speaker 13 pseudo-religion, a satire and parody of religion.

Speaker 13 And it's, you know, it was formed by two guys. We'll get into the history, but I have a sort of a favorite definition, and I know you do, and maybe we'll just read both of them.

Speaker 9 Okay.

Speaker 13 Mine comes from Steve Davis of the Austin Chronicle, and he said this, in the late 70s, the Church of the Sub-Genius was intended as a dogmatic antidote to a re-emergent mediocrity, embracing an aesthetic and confluence with evolving new wave sensibilities and tropes in music, film, and pop culture.

Speaker 13 It was an end joke with a half-serious punchline.

Speaker 9 Very nice. That was great.

Speaker 13 And what you, yours was from Ed the Grabster himself. He kind of put it nicely.

Speaker 9 Yeah, also from the Austin Chronicle.

Speaker 9 Yeah, so Ed said that it's that the best way to explain the church is it is a joke, but to get the joke, you have to see that it isn't really a joke at all, but is actually getting at harrowing truths about the world.

Speaker 13 Not bad, Ed.

Speaker 9 Not bad. So the whole thing.

Speaker 13 I get scared Ed a little bit.

Speaker 9 I think so too. It's hilarious and cute.
But the whole thing is that it is a parody of a religion, a parody of a cult, a UFO sex cult, if you want to get technical.

Speaker 9 It's an absurdist in joke, and the whole thing is one big in-joke made up of like millions of tiny little in-jokes that anybody in the church can kind of generate and create, but it's all kind of hung on the skeleton of this

Speaker 9 doctrine of the prophet Bob Dobbs, who is the world's greatest salesman,

Speaker 9 who is basically carrying out the will of an alien God who may or may not love us or the subgenie.

Speaker 9 as they're called in plural. And

Speaker 9 either it sucks you in immediately immediately and you're like, I want to know more about this because this is hilarious, or it repulses you because it is making fun of everything that you hold dear.

Speaker 9 There's not a lot of middle ground, although I would count myself as somebody in the middle ground, to tell you the truth.

Speaker 9 That was so awesome, Chuck. Nicely done.

Speaker 13 Yeah, what I just did there, and you'll see this a lot if you watch the documentary. If you see any YouTube footage of people from the sub-Genius Church hanging out at one of their

Speaker 13 devivals. They don't call them revivals.
They call them devivals.

Speaker 13 They will do this thing where they kind of

Speaker 13 juggle their throat with their hand as they sort of do this weird chant.

Speaker 13 And I didn't find much information on that specifically, but I did see them doing it all over the place.

Speaker 9 Well, it is a huge, huge rabbit hole. And as we'll see, like some people accidentally take it seriously, and that's not the right thing to do at all.
That is

Speaker 9 a

Speaker 9 mentally unsound unsound thing to do. That is not what the intention is or anything like that.
The intention is to basically point out how just warped our consumer culture is.

Speaker 9 And it made a lot more sense in the 80s before our culture ended up becoming the parody that the Church of the Sub-Genius was carrying out.

Speaker 13 Yeah,

Speaker 13 it had a very mad magazine vibe.

Speaker 13 you know, something I know that you and I both grew up loving and cherishing.

Speaker 13 And I could see like, you know, if that's something as mainstream as you want to liken it to, to help people understand, it's almost as if Mad Magazine started a religion and Alfred E.

Speaker 13 Newman was the God. And it was all just one big joke about consumer culture.
And

Speaker 13 then if people end up taking it seriously, you can really see why like that would be a very strange thing. Like, of course, Alfred E.
Newman is not God.

Speaker 13 And of course, Bob Dobbs is not God

Speaker 13 or the prophet. But

Speaker 13 these two guys founded this kind of funny joke religion in the late 1970s because they were like-minded dudes. And what started as a joke grew into a,

Speaker 13 I guess, a mini phenomenon?

Speaker 9 I don't know, man. I think it's a major phenomenon.
I would say major as far as cult classic or cult phenomena go.

Speaker 9 And also, we should also, I think we should preface all this, if it's not too late, to all of the Church of the Sub-Genius members out there, past and present,

Speaker 9 and future.

Speaker 9 This is one of those things where, like, if you explain what makes something funny,

Speaker 9 it is like that's the least funny thing you can do. So, if we traipse into that just by virtue of explaining things, we're sorry.

Speaker 13 I know, because it is a fun, kind of cool thing that was created for people that felt like they were on the outside of things.

Speaker 9 Precisely, yes.

Speaker 13 For outcasts and weirdos who didn't fit in necessarily, they found common ground before the internet

Speaker 13 by writing letters back and forth to each other. They kind of had the internet through pen and paper and these devivals.
And we have Douglas St. Clair Smith and Steve Wilcox to thank for this.

Speaker 9 Yeah, the original outsider weirdos.

Speaker 13 That's right. You may not know them by that name.
If you're familiar with the Church of the Sub-Genius, you know them as Ivan Stang and Philo Drummond.

Speaker 13 And these were two guys, like I said, who were, they were in Texas. I think Philo grew up in a religious family, but,

Speaker 13 and had a really good childhood. It wasn't some like stifling situation, but he was always sort of didn't quite fit in and felt like the outsider at school and was seeking outsider culture.

Speaker 13 And whereas

Speaker 13 Stang was,

Speaker 13 I think he described himself in the documentary as secular humanist scientist in his upbringing,

Speaker 13 super super liberal family whereas

Speaker 13 I keep on calling Wilcox whereas Philos was more conservative to be sure but they found common ground when a friend introduced them they said you both love comic books you both love Frank Zappa and Captain Beefheart

Speaker 9 get together and you might have a new friend and they were immediate friends yeah yeah they definitely hit it off in part also because they both kind of just felt like they didn't really fit into Dallas Texas at the time that helps one of of the other things they really had in common was a love of like earnest bona fide extremist pamphlets.

Speaker 13 Right. They're fun.

Speaker 9 Yeah, whether it's extremist religious groups, extremists like,

Speaker 9 you know,

Speaker 9 like white supremacist groups, which I'm sure Dallas, Texas in the 70s had quite a bit of, like anybody who was just kind of off the rails and was trying to recruit other people to be off the rails with them and made a pamphlet about that.

Speaker 9 These guys would collect it and relish it. And that also included, remember the Jack Schick tracks in the Satanic Panic episode? They were huge into that.
That had a huge influence on them as well.

Speaker 9 Those comic strips about how somebody, you know, had sex before marriage and now they were burning in hell kind of stuff.

Speaker 9 Like that, they took all these things together and they kind of used them as the basis for this outlook on the world, which is humans are totally nuts in a lot of ways.

Speaker 9 And then even more than that, they can be dangerously nuts when they try to foist or impose their own

Speaker 9 crazy thoughts onto you and make you behave a certain way because of their crazy thoughts. That that's the danger that comes out of modern life.

Speaker 9 And I think that's one of the things that really stuck out to them and the thing that drove them to kind of kind of try to fight that however they could.

Speaker 13 Yeah, I have to say, I see the appeal of what they did because uh if you remember a few years ago god this is quite a few years ago now our our buddy joe randazzo and i wrote a tv pilot together about a um a scientology-esque religion and it never went anywhere we even had a few pitch meetings and nothing happened with it but in writing that script we had to create our own religion for that pilot and you can't just say well let's just call it this and it's whatever like you have to really kind of explore the tenets of it and make it a real thing.

Speaker 13 And we did that. And

Speaker 13 I made a pamphlet. Joe and I made it together and I kind of put it together.
And we brought the pamphlet to the pitch meetings. And I'll send you one sometime.
It's really funny.

Speaker 13 Our religion was called binarism. And it was like this numbers-based kind of Scientology thing.
But it was so much fun.

Speaker 13 And all I could think about when these two guys got together in 1979

Speaker 13 and hatched this idea was, yeah, it's a lot of fun to create a phony religion,

Speaker 13 even for a screenplay.

Speaker 9 Yeah, and they were definitely inspired by L. Ron Hubbard and his success at basically founding Scientology based on some science fiction ideas that he had.
And then becoming rich.

Speaker 9 There's a famous quote attributed to L. Ron Hubbard: You can't get rich writing science fiction, but you can get rich by writing or by founding your own religion.
And so,

Speaker 9 so we should be really careful here. They weren't inspired by L.
Ron Hubbard

Speaker 9 in the sense like they wanted to take advantage of people. I think they were more fascinated by the fact that there are plenty of people out there who will buy into this.
Right.

Speaker 9 And I think they kind of wanted to explore that.

Speaker 9 Not in any kind of like, it's weird.

Speaker 9 The whole thing is kind of a cynical, it comes from a cynical place where you just have to be cynical

Speaker 9 to be critical enough of society to see it for what it is. But it's also like a very humanist

Speaker 9 group as well, where like they're not trying to hurt you, they're not trying to exploit you.

Speaker 9 They definitely come off as superior a lot of times, especially if you're not in on the joke because that makes you by definition part of the butt of the joke. Right.

Speaker 13 Makes you a normie. Yes.

Speaker 9 But for the most part,

Speaker 9 they're not like a group of people who like hate or despise other people. I think they're fascinated by the fact that that kind of stuff exists.
And they're also fascinated by by just how

Speaker 9 conformist the average person is without even thinking about it.

Speaker 9 So

Speaker 9 they were fascinated, I guess is the way to put it, by L. Ron Hubbard and his success with Scientology.
And there was another quote that was attributed to Stang.

Speaker 9 I don't know if it was in the documentary that came out recently or not, but he basically said,

Speaker 9 we figured that if Jim Jones can get 900 people to kill themselves, we could get 900 people to send us a dollar.

Speaker 9 And they kind of wanted to toy around with that and see, you know, if that was the case. Not to exploit people, but just to kind of see, I think, if there was anybody else out there.

Speaker 9 They were kind of shouting into the wilderness. And the way that you told them that you were out there was to mail in a dollar and say, send me your pamphlet.

Speaker 13 Yeah, and here's the deal. Stang, it looks like by all accounts, has generally made his living doing this over the year.
Yeah, it worked.

Speaker 13 He's not gotten rich.

Speaker 13 It's not a Scientology thing where it's like, and send me $100 more dollars and we'll give you another thing no it's really just sort of mail us some money and we'll send you our comedy goods in the mail yeah like and he still stuffs envelopes and he still sends pamphlets and CDs and literature today

Speaker 9 it's like you know it's like paying for a mad magazine or something but it's just done from this guy's house yeah I also get the impression that the far and away the vast majority of the people who understand the church of sub-genius for what it is when they send money and they're sending it out of like gratitude for what Tsang and Philo have built together.

Speaker 9 100%.

Speaker 9 That's what it is. They're not being duped in any way.
They're in on the joke. They're just showing their support by shoveling money toward those guys.

Speaker 13 All right. I think that is a great preamble.

Speaker 13 You're either turning off your hi-fi system now

Speaker 13 or

Speaker 13 you're intrigued by what's to come. And we'll talk about the night it all hatched right after this.

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Speaker 13 All right. So these guys are hanging out.
It's 1979.

Speaker 13 They didn't have, I think Philo was the one who always had a pretty decent job. He kind of had an okay career.

Speaker 13 And he always wanted to, there were times where where he kind of dropped in and out of his involvement because he did have a decent career, but he always supported it.

Speaker 13 Whereas Stang was all in from the beginning and didn't have a ton of prospects for work.

Speaker 13 But they were hanging out and they were like, kind of wondering why they, you know, didn't have more and why they weren't as successful as they thought they should be.

Speaker 13 And Stang said, you know, we aren't geniuses.

Speaker 13 We must be sub-geniuses. And he says in the documentary, he was like, that's the moment.
It was literally like a lightning bolt out of the sky that hatched this idea.

Speaker 13 So they kind of took all their interest in all these weird pamphlets and weird UFO cults and pseudo-religions and New Age beliefs. And they made the original pamphlet,

Speaker 13 spent $60 on this original pamphlet, and we're just leaving them at dry cleaners and stuff like that until Stang's wife got mad and she was like, that's a lot of money for us.

Speaker 13 At least send this to some publishers and see if you can do something with this. So they sent it to every publisher under the sun and got rejected by every publisher under the sun.
But

Speaker 13 it's pretty funny that later they did end up having a fairly successful book, but early on, book publishers didn't know what to do with these guys.

Speaker 9 Yeah, and you can understand why if you've ever seen what's called pamphlet number one now, which is part of the church doctrine, this is like the sacred writings.

Speaker 9 The idea is that

Speaker 9 Ivan Stang is the sacred scribe who took down the words of Bob Dobbs. And by the way, Bob Dobbs, the Bob is always in quotes.

Speaker 9 Not just when you say J.R. Bob Dobbs.
Like even if you say Bob Dobbs or even just Bob, it's always in quotes. That's how you write his name.

Speaker 9 And that Bob was getting his divine inspiration from Jehovah One, that alien overlord that runs Earth.

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 this was kind of like the conceit of the pamphlet. And the front of the pamphlet said things like, the world ends tomorrow and you may die in all caps.

Speaker 9 It asked,

Speaker 9 do people think you're strange? Do you?

Speaker 9 I know, I love that one. There was another one that said, eternal salvation or triple your money back.

Speaker 9 So like, these are the things

Speaker 9 on and in the pamphlet. And they're going around to publishers being like, hey, you want to give us some money for this? So of course everybody said no.

Speaker 9 The most astounding thing is that eventually somebody actually said yes at I think McGraw-Hill.

Speaker 13 Yeah, and this was much later when they finally did get their book published after they had quite a following and the sort of writing was on the wall with these, you know, fairly successful gatherings and live shows.

Speaker 13 But yeah, the book came later. Early on, they got together and started

Speaker 13 just as buddies, getting on the CB radio and doing, and this, again, this was like you would get on the internet today. Back then, it was the CB.

Speaker 13 And they would do these sort of parody voices.

Speaker 13 It basically hatched what was the beginnings of what would end up being the Hour of Slack

Speaker 13 radio show, which is 90 minutes long, part of the joke.

Speaker 13 And people started hollering back at them. He said they were trolls before they were trolls.
You were kind of trolling people on the CB.

Speaker 13 And then other people would troll back and call them

Speaker 13 pinks.

Speaker 13 And that's where the notion of pinks or pink boys came up. And pink boys, they kind of flipped it.
In the Church of the Subgenius, Pink Boys are the others. They're the squares.

Speaker 13 They're the ones who just follow along and go to their nine-to-five job and spend their consumer money in, you know,

Speaker 13 on catalog items. And anyone else outside is a pink or a pink boy.

Speaker 9 Yes, but, but there's a distinction between,

Speaker 9 say, people like you and I and actual dyed-in-the-wool pink boys, the kind,

Speaker 9 like middle manager types who are like not only fully bought into the con, the great con that's going on, they actually like

Speaker 9 like almost violently defend it in its existence and its rightness.

Speaker 9 Those are pinks. They're irreparable.
There's nothing that's ever going to help them. And they're genuine humans.
Now, there are plenty of sub-genii out there who don't know their subgenii.

Speaker 9 They haven't been exposed to the church. They've never seen a Dob's head maybe.
Whatever reason, they're not aware that they're a sub-genius yet.

Speaker 9 And if you're a true sub-genius, then you have Yeti blood coursing through your veins. Yeah.
Now, if you're an actual sub-genius, that means that you are

Speaker 9 of Yeti heritage who has basically become aware of the teachings of Bob and are now actively

Speaker 9 working against the conspiracy and exploiting pink boys any time you get a chance because again, they're they're hopeless.

Speaker 9 They're never going to be converted because they're they don't have any Yeti blood in them.

Speaker 13 right uh and to reiterate i don't know if i kind of just tossed it off earlier but you tossed it off bob dobbs is a piece of clip art literally that face that you see was a piece of clip art from clip art catalog and they loved clip art because it was free yeah and a lot of their early stuff was just collage from clip art that they had found and this was from a clip art catalog and now it's you know one of the you know arguably one of the most famous pieces of clip art there is yeah and i don't know if it was a joke it's so hard to tell what's a joke and what's not because they play everything so straight.

Speaker 13 Yeah, they're in character, basically.

Speaker 9 Yeah, but I saw on one of their websites, they said, reminder,

Speaker 9 this is a trademarked piece of art now as part of like the sub-genius or copyright subgenius. So I don't know if they actually did copyright.

Speaker 9 I could totally see them doing that. in real life

Speaker 9 or if they were just joking about it. Either way, yeah, it's kind of great.

Speaker 13 So I think we probably can't go any further without explaining this concept of slack.

Speaker 13 I mentioned that the radio show is called The Hour of Slack.

Speaker 13 And kind of the major, I guess, philosophy and tenet of their religion is

Speaker 13 this concept of slack.

Speaker 9 Are you having trouble describing it?

Speaker 13 No, I mean, they even say in the documentary, it is not even to be described, that they can't even describe it. So whatever we do is going to be our own attempt.

Speaker 13 Slack is different for every person, but the definite idea is what you think, which is

Speaker 13 being slack, like kind of, but not just being lazy, having everything you need in life and being content while giving up as little as possible, exertion-wise.

Speaker 9 Yeah, exertion-wise, exactly. Like, like having done as little as possible to actually attain it.
Um, that's one definition of Slack for sure. Um,

Speaker 9 the point is, like, I think it's one of those things where you,

Speaker 9 or what is not Slack is easier to recognize than what is Slack. And I'll give you an example of something that happened today.
Okay. Okay.
Because I've been thinking about this.

Speaker 9 I'm like, how are we going to define Slack? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 9 So

Speaker 9 I knocked over the toilet brush behind the

Speaker 9 toilet in my bathroom, right? Okay.

Speaker 9 And, you know, like the little drippings that end up in like the toilet brush holder. Yes.

Speaker 9 They spill out on the floor yeah those are the worst drippings the the worst drippings like i would have rather spilled like like like raw pork juice onto my floor than those drippings they're bad drippings right bad drippings so i spent the next 10 minutes not only like cleaning up those drippings and i mean like cleaning it up like there's there's some floor missing now i scrubbed it so hard and then also cleaning the holder for the scrub brush before I put everything back.

Speaker 9 And this is a totally unintentional, totally avoidable thing for me to be doing. That took up 10 minutes of my life.
I did not want to be doing it. It was gross.
It was yuck. And I realized

Speaker 9 this is the perfect example of what is not Slack.

Speaker 13 It's the conspiracy.

Speaker 9 It was the conspiracy that probably had something to do with it. But the point was,

Speaker 9 I was doing something I didn't want to do, and I was doing it.

Speaker 9 I was getting no reward from it whatsoever. I was a little stressed out about it.
It was not Slack. So Slack is the opposite of that.
It's where where things are going your way.

Speaker 9 It's where you are content and happy. And that doesn't necessarily mean you have everything in life, like all the trappings of life.
It very frequently doesn't mean that.

Speaker 9 Instead, it's just whatever it is that makes you content. And because it's undefinable, that means that it's up to every sub-genii to define what is slack for them.

Speaker 13 Yeah, and the conspiracy are the things that prevent you from achieving slack.

Speaker 13 Originally, I think the conspiracy was literally like the man, that kind of thing, but it evolved over the years to the point where one of the guys in the documentary said it evolved to, you know, it was like when it rained really hard on a day, you were going to do something.

Speaker 13 Like, that's the conspiracy. I gotcha.
It's things, I think, conspiring against you. That toilet brush knocking over, that's definitely the conspiracy.

Speaker 9 Right.

Speaker 13 Because it prevented you from, I guess, taking your mid-morning nap.

Speaker 9 Right. And under the teachings of Bob, the conspiracy is actually an acronym for cliques of normals secretly planning insidious rituals aimed at controlling you.

Speaker 9 That's a good one. Agreed.
And then under the doctrine, like this is an actual group who they don't know what Slack is, but they know it exists and they're bent on stealing as much of it as possible.

Speaker 9 And they start stealing it from everybody, pinks and Yeti, from the moment you're born.

Speaker 9 And so it's up to you to steal it back, to get as much slack as you possibly can. But the problem with the conspiracy is they're the ones running the show here on Earth.

Speaker 9 They're the ones who are behind consumer culture.

Speaker 9 And they've created this illusion that

Speaker 9 normals and pinks and

Speaker 9 non-subgeniety who haven't figured themselves out yet

Speaker 9 buy into as life is all just this vast consumer conspiracy.

Speaker 9 And that

Speaker 9 they actually offer what appears to be Slack, but it's like false Slack is what they call it. Yeah, it's manufactured Slack.
So it's like

Speaker 9 the sub-genius wiki is awesome. And they give examples of like pre-planned recreation,

Speaker 9 like days off from work that you earn or are given. Like these are, this is all false Slack.
Like it's somebody else deciding what your slack is and you buying into it.

Speaker 9 And that is the, that is not slack. Slack is, you have to decide what slack is.

Speaker 13 Right. And there's original slack.
We're all born with original slack, according to the church.

Speaker 13 And the conspiracy chips away at that slack or sells you false slack over the years to degrade your natural slack that you're born with. Yep.

Speaker 13 And then there's also involuntary slack, which is my favorite slack. And this is like if you, if you lose your job or something, if you get fired, this is just involuntary Slack

Speaker 13 that Bob is sending your way to force you to take a little time off.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I saw a video from, I guess, 2009 or 10, and it called the Great Recession, the Great Slack session.

Speaker 9 And it basically said, like,

Speaker 9 the financial markets have melted down. And it had like this real dramatic music.

Speaker 9 Millions of people are

Speaker 9 out of work. No one has a clue about what to do about it.
Victory is at hand.

Speaker 9 There's one other thing I want to say about Slack, too.

Speaker 9 There are basically two groups, two approaches or philosophies as far as Slack is concerned. And I think it's pretty interesting that, like, the whole concept has gotten this far.

Speaker 9 It's evolved into something. And I think this is a really good example of what happens with the church's teachings.

Speaker 9 Like, these guys just wrote some crazy stuff like back in the 70s, 80s, even into the 90s. And then other people who kind of vibed on it came along and expanded it.

Speaker 9 Like, I read an essay on the scissors of sight, and apparently, that's mentioned offhandedly in

Speaker 9 pamphlet number one. And somebody wrote a whole essay about how they're still trying to figure out what those are, and they think it's from a crystal in Atlantis.

Speaker 9 And it was just all like, that's just what they do. It's almost like they're putting stuff out there as like thought starters for other people's creativity to kind of sprout from.
But anyway,

Speaker 9 the two paths for Slack is kind of split between these two groups, the Rewardians and the Emergentiles, right?

Speaker 13 Yeah, and the Emergentiles are getting their Slack because they're getting the things done that they kind of feel like they want and need to get done,

Speaker 13 but it's under a deadline from someone else, but then they have their Slack. And then the Rewardians don't think, this is more like Tao of Steve stuff.
Did you ever see that movie?

Speaker 9 No, I need to, though. I'm well aware of it.

Speaker 13 That was sort of that guy's deal. He was just like, he had this life philosophy and he would have really fit in with

Speaker 13 these folks, with the Rewardians. They're basically like, slack off all the time.
Don't do any work until you absolutely have to.

Speaker 9 Right. I think there's quite a bit of pot involved every day kind of thing.
Sure.

Speaker 9 That wouldn't surprise me. And that's what I think most people would think of when they think of like slacking.
Like, yeah, that's what you do when you slack. You don't work.

Speaker 9 You sit around, you smoke pot, you're like, never put on pants or anything like that, and you're just having the time of your life, as long as that's what you want to do.

Speaker 9 Emergentiles are like, no, no, there's another way to do this. Like, I feel really good about accomplishing something, about like setting a goal and meeting it, about, but that's my goal.

Speaker 9 Like, I want to learn how to climb a mountain, so I'm going to go learn how to climb a mountain and climb that mountain. And during that whole process, I'm slacking.
Like, that's my slack.

Speaker 9 So, those are kind of like the two ways of doing it. And apparently, the two groups kind of pity each other and think they have it completely backwards.

Speaker 9 But the point is, is neither group is right or wrong because it's all up to the individual what your slack is.

Speaker 13 I mean, what these guys really,

Speaker 13 it's such a time and place thing. They were born out of this sort of spirit of the Merry Prankster 60s counterculture, Ken Keesey kind of thing.

Speaker 13 But they came along at a time where that had been bulldozed over and the 80s were being born, which was about as anti, you know, 60s counterculture vibe as you can imagine.

Speaker 13 But these guys still had that sort of fun, playful idea.

Speaker 13 And, you know, this, this was their invention. I just, I always think it's just so fun and so cool.
I, every time I see a

Speaker 13 Devival or a live show, I absolutely do not want to be there.

Speaker 9 No.

Speaker 13 But I think it's awesome. It was, I liken it to when I saw

Speaker 13 Spinal Tap in concert. They actually toured when I was in college, and I was such a fan of the movie.

Speaker 13 And when they played the Fox Theater, and we all went, and I had, it was not fun at all because it was like, it was funny as a movie, but you're at this rock and roll show that is supposed to kind of be funny,

Speaker 13 but there were also people that were really getting into the rock and roll. And I didn't know, I was stuck in between worlds.
I didn't know how to feel.

Speaker 13 And when I was watching these subgenius live shows, I was kind of like, oh, that's like Spinal Tap Live. I don't want to be there, but I'm glad people are enjoying it.

Speaker 9 Yeah, it's kind of like,

Speaker 9 yeah, and dude, they are enjoying it. The people who go to those are genuinely having the time of their lives.
Like, that's their time to

Speaker 9 be themselves as much as they ever have in their lives. I love it.

Speaker 9 It's almost like I would compare it to

Speaker 9 a

Speaker 9 meeting of the juggalos,

Speaker 9 a comic-con,

Speaker 9 and a Guar Show all mixed together. That's what the divivals these days kind of seem like, just based on what I've seen on the internet.

Speaker 13 Yeah, that's good. I like it.
And

Speaker 13 if you think this is all really dumb, then you probably would not like their motto.

Speaker 13 They have a lot of sayings and mottos, but their chief one that they kind of yell out at these devivals is F them if you can't take a joke, or if they can't take a joke. Right.

Speaker 13 And it means right there.

Speaker 13 It's amazing to me that some people took this too seriously because the motto is literally, this is a joke.

Speaker 9 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 9 And it is really kind of like disconcerting because like if you do take it seriously, like you really have to go to great lengths to get past all the winks, the nods, the absurdity of everything.

Speaker 9 It suggests that there's like

Speaker 9 you're you're you're worse off than the average cult member because you're actually taking a joke cult as a cult.

Speaker 13 It's like when Fight Club got too serious. You started blowing up buildings and stuff.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 13 Except there was no violence involved in the Church of the Sub-Genius.

Speaker 9 No, they're peaceful.

Speaker 13 That's right, because they're all stoned.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I think a lot of them are. I think a lot of them are like the Frank Zappa types, where they're just weird and they have nothing to do with drugs or alcohol or anything like that.
That too.

Speaker 13 They were born with original stoned.

Speaker 9 Yes. Yeah, that's exactly right.

Speaker 13 Requires no drugs.

Speaker 9 Apparently, Frank Zappa Zappler was a real jerk to people who did drugs. Like he had that cafe or restaurant or club or whatever, and he'd like kick you out if he thought you were on pot.

Speaker 13 That's conspiracy.

Speaker 9 Yeah, he was a little pink from what I can tell. Interesting.
Yeah.

Speaker 9 Yeah. And you said also if this kind of stuff seems weird to you or whatever, or you don't like it, like that's a pretty like fairly normal reaction.
It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.

Speaker 9 No. But one of the reasons that

Speaker 9 it might make you feel a little wobbly or a little shaky or like you're missing something or like you're being made fun of, that kind of weird feeling in your stomach, is because you probably are being made fun of.

Speaker 9 Like if you're not in on the joke, like I said earlier, by definition, you're part of the butt of the joke. You're a member of that group.

Speaker 9 And if you actually are actively getting offended at what they're saying and doing, because one of the threads of humor that they very frequently use is bad taste, shock value,

Speaker 9 it's just basically the opposite of PC.

Speaker 9 They really don't care for PC very much.

Speaker 9 And if you're deeply offended by this stuff and you actually respond to it,

Speaker 9 you're actually kind of proving their point, that you are maybe a little too wrapped up in this culture that

Speaker 9 they're basically saying, this is a fraud. This is all a fraud.
And

Speaker 9 you're proving that there's problems with it by getting mad at something we're you know at a joke basically

Speaker 13 yeah and

Speaker 13 you know before you start feeling too sorry for these people because they're being made fun of as like squares who aren't hip to the joke and don't get the joke i mean the original reason this was started was because these very people were outcast and being bullied by those very people

Speaker 13 to begin with right

Speaker 9 so let's take a break man we'll talk about some of the lower points in the church of the sub-genius that have happened across the years huh let's do it

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Speaker 9 So if you went to a devival, one of the things you would find Chuck is, especially an early one, is a lot of like put-on preaching like evangelical mock preaching but the what the the guy's doing is like doing a

Speaker 9 fire and brimstone preacher bit yeah but what he's saying is espousing you know Bob's stuff about you know if they f them if they can't take a joke or

Speaker 9 you know

Speaker 9 whatever

Speaker 9 And that like doesn't sit very well usually with people, but also it never really sits very well with me because it's obnoxious even in its real form and it's super obnoxious when it's like mocked because well that's why i wouldn't want to be there yeah yeah and you do and the anti-music is another reason that was the next thing i was going to get to is like if you if you are not super into this and probably on a pretty decent amount of acid back in like 1985 or four

Speaker 13 um you you the anti-music would probably turn you off too i know it i don't like it at all either Yeah, it's basically the idea is that they would get a bunch of instruments and you could just do whatever you want with them.

Speaker 13 And

Speaker 13 the idea is that you're not, you you can't play these things. These are not skilled musicians or not even musicians at all.

Speaker 13 And

Speaker 13 they would just make noise with them. And, you know, when watching the documentary, you get the idea from some of them that

Speaker 13 it's sort of like the drum circle that finally everyone gets in synchronicity for a minute. You're like, oh, okay, something just happened.

Speaker 13 That would happen occasionally, apparently, with the anti-music is that it would coalesce at a certain point. Or maybe that was the drugs talking.

Speaker 13 But but basically it's a bunch of people making a lot of awful noise and screaming yes

Speaker 9 there was actually a time during the d

Speaker 9 at the at d vivals I think during the

Speaker 9 90s maybe

Speaker 9 where a schism in the church developed

Speaker 13 was very much planned, yeah.

Speaker 9 Right. So the idea was, so one of the big parts of the one of the tenets of the church is they're the like the world's going to end eventually on X Day.

Speaker 9 And X Day was originally slotted for July 5th, 1998.

Speaker 9 And that came and went, and there were no UFOs driven by sex goddesses to come whisk off the subgenii to Planet X to live out the rest of their eternity partying.

Speaker 9 And then,

Speaker 9 but the fact that this was coming along,

Speaker 9 the church decided, like, we don't know what's going to happen to the pinks after that, so we need to decide.

Speaker 9 And the schism was formed between people who said, well, there'll probably be sub-subgenii who want to stay and rule the world, and we can just let them rule the pinks from there on out.

Speaker 9 And then the other group said, no, no, no, all the pinks are going to be slaughtered on X day. There won't be any pinks left.
And apparently this...

Speaker 9 differing opinion on basic church doctrine like was a thread that was carried on for a very long time.

Speaker 13 It was. And I think we just need to be really clear.
A schism was written into the script of the Church of the Subgenius. Okay.

Speaker 13 It was nothing formed. It was, they wrote a heel, basically, into their wrestling show

Speaker 13 with Papa Joe Mama, who was the leader of the Holocaust, who believed,

Speaker 13 and again, all in jest, but he believed like, go out and shoot the rich, basically, like kill these people.

Speaker 13 And I think it was Stang was the leader of the evangelicals, which was, yeah, let's just enslave them, basically and keep them alive.

Speaker 13 And

Speaker 13 two things here. First of all, in that they eventually had a big show in the 80s, kind of jumping back in San Francisco.
They had had these sort of small tent devivals with 100 people.

Speaker 13 And then in San Francisco, they booked this theater for two nights, 900-seat theater for two nights. And we're like, we don't really know if we can do this.

Speaker 13 And they had set builders and set designers, and it became a real, actual thing. The news covered it.
And they did. They covered it.
And they had a fake assassination of Bob. Bob finally came out.

Speaker 9 He walked out on stage and then bang.

Speaker 13 He was immediately shot. But apparently they started doing this a lot.

Speaker 13 Bob had many, many lives and could be killed over and over again, assassinated.

Speaker 13 So there was that. And then after X Day,

Speaker 13 judging from the documentary is when it seemed to like kind of go bad.

Speaker 13 And not go bad in that everybody really started believing and it became this really scary thing.

Speaker 13 But it sort of lost its juzh a little bit and there were some people and i think one person specifically even went up to stang

Speaker 13 uh i don't know if it was the x-day i think it may have been at the x-day celebration

Speaker 13 okay and um

Speaker 13 he was you know obviously someone who needed some real help because he thought this was all real uh was was livid that it wasn't being taken seriously and that people were laughing and that's when stang was like oh man, like, kind of this was bound to happen,

Speaker 13 but it also made him sad because I'd never wanted anything like this.

Speaker 9 Right. And that was the reason why.
So like the documentary that was made by Sandy K. Boone,

Speaker 9 who was involved in a few other

Speaker 9 pretty great documentaries recently, including Tower. I don't think it's The Tower, just Tower, the one about the

Speaker 9 Charles Whitman, the shooting at the University of Texas back in the 60s. Oh, it's amazing.
So remember Waking Life, that whole thing Link Letter did with the animation?

Speaker 9 They did that for this documentary, and it really had a great impact.

Speaker 13 The rotoscoping, cool.

Speaker 9 Yes.

Speaker 9 So

Speaker 9 she was involved in that as well. But she made this documentary.

Speaker 9 Apparently, her late husband was like a great adherent in the Church of the Sub-Genius, and she made it also kind of as an ode to him as well.

Speaker 9 But in it, Stang and Philo break character, and like they hadn't broken character for 30-something years, right like they've done interviews uh they've like like print tv radio like they've done the radio show they've like written tons of books um they just don't break character that's just part of their jam and for this documentary they did and they said the reason why at least stang said the reason why he did um was because they're kind of getting on in years and he wants to make sure that it's perfectly clear before he dies that this is a joke and that everybody knows it was a joke and it's always been a joke and there's like you need to take it as a joke so that it doesn't accidentally turn into something like Scientology down the down the line.

Speaker 13 Yeah, he said, you watched it, right?

Speaker 9 Yeah, yeah, I didn't watch it right before this. I saw it several months ago.

Speaker 13 Yeah, he said,

Speaker 13 and this kind of sums it up in the way that it makes sense, but it doesn't. And this is in relation to that guy who really came up to him and other people that really thought it was real.
He said,

Speaker 13 we always wanted to trick people, but we didn't really want to trick people.

Speaker 9 Right, yes, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.
They were fascinated by the fact that people could be tricked. Yeah.
And they wanted to explore that and make fun of it.

Speaker 9 And they invited other people to explore it and make fun of it, but it wasn't to hurt anybody.

Speaker 9 They weren't actually trying to exploit anybody. Like the idea of

Speaker 9 having you become a part, become a member, send in your dollar, become ordained, buy into all that sales stuff was to point out that that's what was going on in the real world, you know?

Speaker 13 Yeah, and this sort of came to a head in the 90s when they, it was just after Columbine.

Speaker 13 They had a live show planned in Boston and Papa Joe Mama, who was, again, their sort of scripted heel agent provocateur, got on, I think, a radio show

Speaker 13 and somehow referenced Columbine. It was a little unclear.

Speaker 9 I think he blamed Columbine on the Church of the Subgenius.

Speaker 13 Oh, was that what it was?

Speaker 9 I believe so.

Speaker 13 Okay, because I couldn't quite tell what the reference was, but it was clear that that was over the line for both Philo and Stang.

Speaker 13 And the show was originally canceled by the theater, and then a real church, I think like an Episcopal church, stepped up weirdly and said, you can have it at our church.

Speaker 13 And then they got bomb threats and they said, well, no, I guess we can't do that. And then I think they ended up having it in a...

Speaker 13 like a public park or something.

Speaker 13 But that was sort of like where it, you know, the 90s weren't too kind to to the

Speaker 13 not just like the numbers, but you know, once the internet was born and that was like really when the consumer culture and the internet boom happened for real, it was just so antithetical to the church of the sub-genius.

Speaker 13 It seemed to kind of fade away

Speaker 13 until later on when the internet kind of helped revive it again.

Speaker 9 So my take is that

Speaker 9 what really kind of led it downhill, not to say that there's like like it

Speaker 9 not to say that it's it's, it went downhill on its own, like that just, just the world changed.

Speaker 9 Yeah. And there was, there, like, it, the world became the parody.
Not, it wasn't like straight any longer. It was just a joke, but that was real life now.

Speaker 9 So you can't satirize something that is the satire that you're coming up with. There's just no way to do it.

Speaker 13 No, that's absolutely right.

Speaker 9 And that's, you know, America changed quite a bit in the last like 20 years. And the, the, like, what do do you, like, how, you just can't.
You can't satirize something when it becomes this

Speaker 9 weird version of itself that you were using before. It encroached on your turf kind of thing, you know?

Speaker 13 Yeah. And then the last like 10 minutes of the documentary sort of focus on the Trump administration and these fringe groups that started online there saying this crazy made-up stuff.
And

Speaker 13 that really puts a hurting, like you said, on something like the Church of the Sub-Genius as far as being, and their numbers were never huge, but I get the idea from watching it that Stang

Speaker 13 still has people that write in, that still send him some money. He told one funny joke about getting a payment upon receipt envelope that like he had to pay $2 to even open this thing.

Speaker 13 And he was all perturbed about that. And there was $1,000 in cash in it.

Speaker 13 And he took half of it and immediately took it to a sick friend. Like, that's the kind of guy he is.

Speaker 9 Oh, that's cool. Yeah, he struck me as that as well.

Speaker 13 But he's still, you know, paying his mortgage, stuffing envelopes.

Speaker 9 Well, yeah, because I think, like, if you go back and you read the original books, and you know, even still, I was reading like the Wikia that explained all of the different stuff

Speaker 9 is hilarious and like totally worthwhile and still applies today.

Speaker 9 Like, it's like in a certain way, it's timeless, even though it screams Reagan era, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 9 But

Speaker 9 it still makes sense because we still have like a consumer-driven consumer-driven culture that is that has a lot to do with gender norms and conformity and

Speaker 9 exploiting people for their labor.

Speaker 9 Like all that stuff is still going on. So the original stuff still stands and still holds.

Speaker 13 Yeah. And they, you know, Mark Motherspaugh of Devo and I can't remember the other guy's name in Devo, they were way into it.

Speaker 13 Penn Gillette, Nick Offerman, Richard Linkladder, Paul Rubens, Pee Wee Herman's Playhouse had a Bob Dobbs on his big wall collage.

Speaker 13 These were all people that were attracted to it.

Speaker 13 It was a lot of dudes, of course, but they do interview a few of the women in the original group that said, like, we were outcasts and we wanted to meet these weirdo guys. And this is where we did it.

Speaker 13 Like, we went there because it was mostly guys. Yeah.
And, you know, we could meet these dudes.

Speaker 13 But it was very male-oriented. And

Speaker 13 I don't know. I just, like I said, I never, I always had fun reading about it and hearing about it, but never wanted to get too involved just because I'm too much of a pink, I guess.

Speaker 9 Yeah, yes, it is a lot of fun to read about for sure. Like, there's a lot of stuff out there on the internet to read.

Speaker 9 And I this is like 10% of it. I encourage, yeah, there's there, it's huge.
It's an enormous, huge, rambling, um,

Speaker 9 like, what do you call a group of beliefs in scripture and doctrine?

Speaker 9 Mythos, I guess. Maybe.

Speaker 9 Yeah, canon. Yeah, canon.
That's what I was looking for. There's a huge, extensive canon, and it's a lot of fun, especially the older stuff.

Speaker 9 Some of the newer stuff is not that funny because it's, and I don't mean new, I mean like mid-2000s, the mid-aughts kind of stuff. It started to really lose its sense of humor.

Speaker 9 Some people lost their sense of humor and got real serious about it.

Speaker 9 The 80s and 90s stuff is hilarious.

Speaker 9 I strongly recommend going to read

Speaker 9 an explanation of the male-to-female discrepancy in the Church of the Sub-Genius by Reverend Nancy Regalia.

Speaker 9 Or by the Brill book. Yeah, well, I don't think that was in the book.
That was just supplemental stuff. It was an essay explaining it.

Speaker 9 But it also is more like a kind of a call to arms for those girls who never felt like or always recognized that they were kind of being forced into certain gender roles and didn't ever feel good about it.

Speaker 9 She had a quote, it's not enough to simply burn your bras. Why stop there? Burn a few bridal boutiques in City Hall while you're at it.

Speaker 9 It's a good essay, for sure. Totally worth reading.

Speaker 9 Good stuff. Yeah, there's a lot more to say about the Church of the Sub-Genius, but we'll just leave it to you.
I feel like we should just part with it. It's a joke.
It is a joke, ultimately.

Speaker 9 It's a joke. And take it as that.
Okay?

Speaker 9 Man, you got that down. You got some Yeti in you, pink boy.
Ooh, maybe.

Speaker 9 And since I called Chuck a pink boy, it's time for listener mail.

Speaker 13 Keeping it short and sweet here with a quick correction from a new listener.

Speaker 9 Okay.

Speaker 13 Hi, guys. I'm a very new listener, and I love what I've heard so far.

Speaker 13 However, just three episodes in about the Magna Carta, one of you offhandedly suggested that William the Conqueror was a beloved English king because he annexed Normandy after the Battle of Hastings.

Speaker 13 That was me. That's pretty much backwards, guys.
He was a Norman king who conquered England at that battle.

Speaker 13 William's story would make a great episode. That is from Scott Scattergood in Suon, Korea.

Speaker 9 Well, Scott, since you're new, you obviously don't know that most of the viewpoint that we give on stuff you should know is from the Vikings' viewpoint.

Speaker 9 So we had it right.

Speaker 9 Okay, good.

Speaker 9 Scott Scattergood? What a great name. Right? Yeah.

Speaker 9 What happens if you scramble Scott around? Scatter's good.

Speaker 9 If you want to get in touch with us, like Scott did, you can send us an email to stuffpodcast at iHeartRadio.com.

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